Howard Carter, Siddiq, and company.
I have used lots of intellectual arguments in my posts so far.
Far simpler to put it this way: If becoming “conscious” means becoming like Robert Burton—screw that, I willingly join the damned!
If “higher forces” are external and behave as Burton claims they do (“humiliating him by requiring him to have sex with ‘his’ students” and so on—fuck them all!
If the price of “immortality”, is to squash my conscience—I’d rather roast!
And if the supposed advancement to the “higher possibilities in the next lifetime” is to behave like a shit in this one—up yours…
To all those who imagine that the ends, however noble, justify the means, however ignoble—I invite the lighting bolts from the petty gods you have created for yourselves.
I too am getting mighty tired of listening to the intellectual crap that continually justifies anything Robert does as some kind of holy deed that simple folks like myself cannot understand.
My advice to these people would be to go sit under a tree, smell the roses and listen to your heart for awhile. There is no justification under the sun for what Robert has done and continues to do to naive, young men and women who come with their hearts and minds open trying to find their truths.
Charles R. Good to have you back! THANK YOU for your fine post quoting Jung. It bears repeating since the last thread became to large and unwieldy to navigate.
From Jung:
“When therefore a prophet appears at a moment’s notice, we would be better advised to contemplate a possible psychic disequilibrium.”
This is precisely what compels a person afflicted with narcissistic personality disorder to be driven by the need to compensate the disequilibrium with multiple sex partners, travel, constant supply of fine impressions and the vicious expunging of any dissent. These are called narcissistic tools or objects, which are de-humanizing to those caught in the afflicted person’s vortex.
The following quote from Jung was so exquisite in its portrayal of those still caught in the FOF matrix, that I reprinted it as a platform for the next thread.
“But besides the possibility of becoming a prophet, there is another alluring joy, subtler and apparently more legitimate: the joy of becoming a prophet’s disciple. This, for the vast majority of people, is an altogether ideal technique. Its advantages are: the odium dignitatis, the superhuman responsibility of the prophet, turns into the so much sweeter otium indignatis. The disciple is unworthy; modestly he sits at the Master’s feet and guards against having ideas of his own. Mental laziness becomes a virtue; one can at least bask in the sun of a semi divine being. He can enjoy the archaism and infantilism of his unconscious fantasies without loss to himself, for all responsibility is laid at the Master’s door. Through his deification of the Master, the disciple, apparently without noticing it, waxes in stature; more over, does he not possess the great truth – not from his own discovery, of course, but received straight from the Master’s hands? Naturally the disciples always stick together, not out of love, but for the very understandable purpose of effortlessly confirming their own convictions by engendering an air of collective agreement.”
Howard, read it and weep. Your ‘celestial morality’ is a delusion of grandeur.
I whole-heartedly agree with you about Jung. I speak as one who has been working over the past six years with a Jungian therapist. I would highly recommend Eddinger’s Ego and Archetype as a guide to a post-fellowship understanding of one’s psychological journey. Out of our own individual needs, we projected the Self onto Bob and now it’s time to recollect those projections.
You wouldn’t remember me, but we spent a pleasant afternoon walking around the National Gallery in D.C. I remember that at lunch you caused a raised eyebrow when you ordered a beer. You said something to the effect that we are in the business of changing our states and right now a beer will change my state.
Ames #1:
I think this is the same conclusion a lot of us have reached. Thanks for stating it.
Sheik posted his initial observations Sunday April 16, 2006
First comment on these observations: June 24, 2006
Part 1—First 300 comments, ending March 1, 2007
Part 2—Next 338 comments, ending March 11, total 668
Part 3—Next 333 comments, ending March 22, total 1007
Part 4—Next 312 comments, ending March 29, total 1313
Part 5—Next 391 comments, ending April 8, total 1704
Part 6—Next 408 comments, ending April 20, total 2112
Part 7—Next 397 comments, ending April 28, total 2509
Part 8—Next 453 comments, ending May 11, total 2962
Part 9—Next 452 comments, ending May 22, total 3414
Part 10—Next 534 comments, ending June 5 , total 3948
(change of format occurred here…
Part 11—Next 715, comments, ending June 13th, total 4663. Note: no moderation, numbering screws up, FoF spam attacks repelled!
Part 12—Next 647 comments, ending June 21st, total 5310
Part 13—Next 829 comments, ending July 3, total 6139
Thanks, appreciation and love to you all from Ames!
Special thanks to you, O Sheik, for all your hard work.
P.S. Since it looks like we contributed to the Sheik’s laptop giving up the ghost last weekend, remember to give something back. One way is the PayPal button!
Haven’t been on for a while, so much living to do.
This TRUE story is for those who are still very attached and hang on to the idea of Robert Burton being a unique and conscious being. Here is the story that actually happened and was the final understanding and closure for me.
There we were, the two of us sitting in a charming little coffee shop in the Bay area about 6 months ago. Both of us had exited the FoF, just 5 months earlier after serving a 20+ year term. It was chilly outside, people bundled up, coming and going. The atmosphere was warm and friendly inside, the tables were full, and the constant hum of voices put a smile on my face – life expressing itself all around me. We were sitting at the entrance door (the only table available) watching the comings and goings.
I was halfway through a sentence when I noticed that my partner’s attention had straying in a fixed kind of way to a new arrival that was just entering. A finely dressed, handsome, youngish gentleman (Asaf type, with a broad smile) opened the door –and who should enter, but A LOOK-A-LIKE , a DUPLICATE TO ROBERT BURTON. We both became fixated! The older gentleman was finely turned out, with an overcoat that was of the finest imported cashmere, a pair of Italian shoes that probably ran into the multiple hundreds, an ebony cane with a finely carved ivory handle, an exquisitely trimmed white beard, a broad smile , and a posture that had a slight stoop that said ‘this is what humility looks like’.
The young man moved ahead to secure a chair for the RB Look-a-like, pulled it out for him, seated him and then moved back and forth between the order counter and him with espressos, and croissants. The two remained in the coffee shop for about 15 minutes. During that time the older gentleman would look around the room from time to time with ‘attention’, smile, and lean over to his younger acolyte and point out something of interest or to teach him something of great importance.
Then it was time for them to leave. As the older gentleman approached the door which was slightly ajar, he used his cane to gently but ‘intentionally’ push it closed (after all it was an incomplete octave, and someone had strayed out without realizing that folly of their ways). This in itself was even stranger, as the two where about to exit from the same door. My partner could no longer contain himself. He had to speak!
For purposes of this dialogue, we will call my Partner ‘K’ and myself ‘C’ and the older gentleman, the look-alike to Robert Burton as RB ².
K: “ That looks like a useful tool. Beautiful cane!’
RB ²: “ Thank you, yes it comes in handy’
K: “ If you don’t mind me asking – you remind me of an old acquaintance- where are you from?”
RB ²: “ From the ABSOLUTE”
K: “ Nice to meet you, and I am B.
C: “ Nice to meet you , I am C. What is your name?
RB ²: “ I am MANOUSH ” ( said with a long soft extended sound , more like Maaannnooossshhh., and accompanied by a broad smile).
K. “ Are you a teacher?’
RB ²: “ Yes I am” (he beamed , with a humble tilt of the head)
K. “ What do you teach”?
RB ²: Turns to his well dressed , handsome acolyte and says “ DEAR, please give them a card ”.
Acolyte fumbles in his wallet, and produces a card. Immediately under the name of the ‘school/institution !!!’ a statement in bright parentheses says
‘ the divine art of being present’.
Hands were extended in goodbye. Manoush clasps his hands together in ‘that humble, I respect you fashion accompanied by a slight dip of the head and shoulders,’. The acolyte leaps forward to hold the door open for his ‘ TEACHER – MANOUSH ’.
If anyone wants to switch, we have the card . It is duplicating universe, isn’t it ?
And a final quote from RB himself (daily card), August 11, 2006
“ When you wake up from imagination, you realize that you have been wasting your time” Love RB
By way of contribution: there has been a huge amount of scholarly research on the enneagram since Ichazo started teaching it in the late 60’s. It is one example of why IMO Gurdjieff’s concept of “esotericism” is obsolete. Two such researchers are Hudson and Riso; in their book “Personality Types” they have a lineage diagram. The origins are labelled Unknown, Babylon or the MiddleEast, cir. 2500BC. The next step is Pythagoras and the Neo-Platonists, Greece, 500-100 BC.
I don’t know what you mean by a “huge amount of scholarly research” because my attempts to discover anything about the nature of the enneagram indicate that those who work with the ideas presented by Ichazio and marketed as an “enneagram” of personality are meaningless in terms of the use of the enneagram.
A more likely source of further information is through the Gurdjieff tradition. Those who study Beelzebub and Bennet. Etc.
“If becoming “conscious” means becoming like Robert Burton—screw that, I willingly join the damned!”
Your role was especially written just for you; you couldn’t “become like Robert” if you dedicated your entire life to it.
And you couldn’t become “not like Ames” if you dedicated your entire life to it. But you can look “through” Ames’ eyes, and not with them. Better yet you could close your two eyes and see with the third one, to paraphrase Rumi.
And look without judgment, rage, not indignantly but with compassion, forgivness, humility. Knowing it is all written by Beings infinitely superior in intelligence and authority than any human being including REB.
When you rage against REB you are raging against them.
But don’t expect to be struck by lightning – that’s not their style. If you chose to value this life over the next one they will give you what you want – a good earthly life, nothing more, nothing less.
As far as stating “I willingly join the damned” everyone says that until the actual moment of joining.
“those who work with the ideas presented by Ichazio and marketed as an “enneagram” of personality are meaningless in terms of the use of the enneagram.”
As I exchange messages and browse through the member pages in the Greater Fellowship Ning website, I am struck every day by the huge volume of exuberant, affirmative, loving energy fountaining out across the world via that website. So many old friends, new friends, lost but now found friends. All supportive, affirming each other’s essence and spiritual growth. It as as if all that loving energy that was somehow frozen inside while we were “in” is now breaking out in huge fountaining jets of warmth.
And I now see, this energy is the School. REB started something, but the real School is comprised of all the sincere, honest, loving friends that somehow flowed in and out of the Fellowship of Friends. It long ago ceased to have anything to do with RB’s teaching. The frauds, the con jobs, the scandals, the wounded essenses, the broken trust, the FoF Mafia, the Sequence, all the weird babble – all connected with a very psychically frail, wounded man.
WE are a School. In or Out, makes no difference. The dream was real, the utopia is there – it’s just not physically located anywhere, especially not in the property in Oregon House. Nor is it bound by the frailties, inconsistencies, weaknesses of any one person. And it is not even limited to those who actually ever joined the FoF.
It gives me great hope.
We smilingly refer to the GF site as “Son of Blog” (but without the negativity for now) – so thanks Sheik for being Dad here.
There’s some Viking energy ah sail still!
_________________________________
Hello Sheik ~ (Whalerider, Vera.mente, A Former Student)
Hello Sheik ~ A note: maybe it was your down time and broken computer; my Post #793 and #795 are duplicates.
Also, something ‘weird’ occurred in that I sent those posts ((after)) the ones that it is now ((before)) (?) Strange.
To Whalerider, Vera.mente and A Former Student ~
I replied to you, though based upon the Twilight Zone sequence of how my post appeared before the posts that it nornally would appear after, you may have missed it.
It is to be found on (1)3 ~ #793 or #795 (take your pick, they’re simese twins).
____________________________
Hello Ames ~ (Post 792)
You wrote ~
“No wonder the great caliph Haroun al-Raschid had to slip out from time to time, disguised, into the city to get first–hand information about the condition of the citizens—and the state. Even his most trusted advisors and viziers, chosen from the best, serving without selfish motives, could not transmit information up or vision down without distortion, even acting from the best of motives. He had to go and obtain direct experiences himself..”
_____________________
Beautiful demonstration of real being in action; never stop dancing my friend and keep that wooden leg oiled and loaded, if you know what I mean.
_____________________
Joel ~ (Post 797)
Hello Joel,
It seems to me that your letter to Benjamin and the si-do that you revealed here on the blog by inviting others to ‘let out’ their little black books on your past are connected.
I have often found it incredibly ‘amazing’ how clear one’s inner world requisites lay themselves out to ‘really be’ one’s standards and principles when another being attempts to damage essence or has willy nilly transferred some corruption of their own into my ’solar’ pysche…
It happens less these days; I’ve trained myself to see the flip side of the ‘white surrender flag’ facing me and the ‘he’s over here, pointing arrow and bull’s eye’ on the other side;
so many possess this ‘flag’ in their pain body quest for adventure and addiction to the struggling self mind.
True friends…. Hummmm. My truest friends have been those who need themselves more than I, who give to me because ‘we’ ‘asked’ through silent intuitive ways, by sheer proximity and ’spontaneous combustion’;
so much of the ‘kind’ of friendship of the Fellowship of Friends is based on derives from the automatic four lower center conundrum of ‘drama formatory family values’ and still is…
No member of a ’school’, whose nucleus itself does not teach 360 degree trust and integrity can be trusted with un-guarded, raw, still getting its ‘bark’ essence, (among about another 60-70 classifications of inner world order ingredients);
for it is they who, subconsciously and often semi-consciously, imitate the criminal in charge of their developing psyches, i.e., the mirror reflects the silver, not the glass.
In that moment of ‘telling on you’, which even to children (it was felt that way in my childhood) is a kind of ‘crime’, Benjamin ‘was’ Robert Burton, acting out a kind of psychic possession, possessed with another’s entity’s dominance, i.e., the psychology of ‘good boy’…
Freud is all over the place at Isis; they have not even made it to Jung and Campbell yet… Let alone the understandings of the soul ‘mind’.
So, when Benjamin ‘did that to you’, try and see that it too was being done to him ‘24 hours a day’ by the form of the Fellowship of Friends; it was his sub-conscious ‘cry for help’…
Yet, strangely enough, in a School of Relative Awakening, 9 out of 10 students will deny this interpretation and buffer, saying (with two tongues in cheek), “No, I trust Robert Burton, that’s why I cannot be trusted, I must do the teacher’s will, I have no will, I cannot do.” (Yet they affirm nonetheless that they can do the teacher’s will…?)
Benjamin (like Siddiq and HC) are not completely lost; otherwise their names would not be on this blog, deep down this material we’re cranking out will stick and the grace of the end of earth-form will fall upon them, sooner or later (to whatever large or tiny degree, nonetheless, better a pin-hole of light than a coal miner’s curse), this is a fact (for me),
that nothing is lost, even in the face of cold hearted silliness, something gets through, where is goes, how it grows remains a mystery to me, yet, somehow I do sense the seeds are there; this is not in any way meant to lessen their self-responsible performance now, it simply helps me keep a owl’s peripheral on ‘things’, not as they think they are, rather, how time treats us to the immensity of change and circumstances we’d never dream occurring the way they do.
There are certain self-evident laws that are unwinding them, though they do not show it (may not even be awake that its happening without their permission, like someone starring into the sun going blind or drinking grain alcohol ‘pickling’ their liver or a tug on one’s ear that says (from the inside, something they’d never admit from the outside) like “Oh, yes, I believe that but cannot tell you I do.”
The very ‘fact’ that they (at least 2 of them) are ‘tossing love notes attached to bricks’ over to us in here is something not to be underestimated.
Yet, for me, blowing kisses in the wind while others are pissing in it too has got to stop, so, let the aluminum foil dances begin…
Ames post #1 above is a pretty traditional way to start the warring months of July and August; I’ve filled my shells with ‘rock salt’, just for taste, not mortal wounding, so to speak; even these days, those two sided flags keep on coming.
It is my sense that HC believes nothing he’s writing, and is playing the role of ‘third force antagonist’ in here; yet, as we know, this, strangely enough, is the collective voice of a School of Relative Awakening, where the opiate of their language and thoughts overly secrete more cerebral duty, cerebral lip smacking, more cerebral self calming, very little being that’s not connected to mental structures of affirming oneself over and over that “I am this way of applying my thoughts (which are acually not my thoughts), therefore I am.”
I still cannot conceive the utter ‘tasting of soil for a new vineyard at a nuclear fallout area’ that’s occurring in the Fellowship of Friends around the acquisition by some of the most infra-sexed crazed of Robert Burton’s boy’s of the Fellowship of Friends student’s daughters; in their hands they are being placed by the parents, no doubt HC is in there with his pom poms doing cart wheels and boucing about his grapefruits…
This travesty of the Fellowship of Friends upon their own children touches something deep in my heart, I cannot get a grip on it just yet, it feels like a tornado, a hurricane and Jupiter’s eye, all rolled up in one…or maybe its just July.
It’s a beautiful day and the finch do not care who I am and I love them deeply for this kind of treatment.
_________________________________
9 Laura – thanks for sending me back to I Don’t Care 13-737
Current members of the Fellowship of Friends – doesn’t this post send a chill up your spine?
“Did any of you think that I would be dissuaded by this silly blog? The more you say, the more resolute I become.
“The more you write, the less I will read. The more convincing you make your arguments, the more convinced I am to stay. The more serious your arguments, the less I take them seriously. Reason and logic mean nothing to me. I must keep to my aim.
“Your appeals to conscience fall on deaf ears. It is your conscience, not mine. When members are hurt, I do not care. When children of members are hurt and confused, I do not care. When you draw comparisons to other cults, I will ignore it. When you point to the abuse of power by the leader, I will ignore it. When you show concern for the sexual behavior of the leader, I will laugh. If you point to the wisdom and spirituality that can be found outside the confines of this group, I will call it fake. When you emphasize the presence of group think, I will call that group think. When you say we are not thinking for ourselves, I will be puzzled by what you mean. When you say open dialogue is discouraged and punished, I will change the subject.
“Your appeals to conscience fall on deaf ears. It is your conscience, not mine. When members are hurt, I do not care. When children of members are hurt and confused, I do not care. I will wait you out. You will move on to your lives, but I shall remain here because this is my life.
“But eventually I will also leave.
“Like you, I will wonder why I stayed, why I was not dissuaded, why I remained resolute, why I was convinced to stay, why logic and reason meant nothing to me, why I kept to my supposed aim, why your appeals meant nothing to my conscience, why I didn’t care about children being hurt, why I ignored comparisons to other cults, why I ignored the abuse of power by the leader, why I laughed off the leader’s sexual behavior, why I ignored the wisdom and spirituality found outside the group, why I didn’t recognize that I didn’t think for myself, why I changed the subject when someone pointed out the lack of open dialogue. So you see, I will be the same as many of you.
“I will leave.
“But right now, I will stay. Your appeals to conscience fall on deaf ears. It is your conscience, not mine. When members are hurt, I do not care. When children of members are hurt and confused, I do not care…”
“Benjamin (like Siddiq and HC) are not completely lost; otherwise their names would not be on this blog, deep down this material we’re cranking out will stick and the grace of the end of earth-form will fall upon them”
“There are certain self-evident laws that are unwinding them, though they do not show it”
“The very ‘fact’ that they (at least 2 of them) are ‘tossing love notes attached to bricks’ over to us in here is something not to be underestimated.”
“It is my sense that HC believes nothing he’s writing, and is playing the role of ‘third force antagonist’ in here”
In relation to Siddiq…maybe, maybe not. Benjamin…I don’t know anything about his trip.
However, with HC, you are sadly naive, even after all these years, and you are wasting and misdirecting your precious “hope” He is a “severely damaged machine”, as we used to say. Possibly to the same degree as when he entered. I would even venture strongly that this is a criminal personality, possibly sociopathic. One needs to be able to discriminate to protect one’s “self”. Isn’t that one of the points of being here?
“A sociopath is a person who has antisocial personality disorder. The term sociopath is no longer used to describe this disorder. The sociopath is now described as someone with antisocial personality disorder.
The main characteristic of a sociopath is a disregard for the rights of others. Sociopaths are also unable to conform to what society defines as a normal personality. Antisocial tendencies are a big part of the sociopath’s personality. This pattern usually comes into evidence around the age of 15. If it is not treated, it can develop into adulthood.
Visible symptoms include physical aggression and the inability to hold down a steady job. The sociopath also finds it hard to sustain relationships and shows a lack of regret in his or her actions. A major personality behavior trait is the violation of the rights of others. This can appear as a disregard for the physical or sexual wellbeing of another.”
hc (19), I once believed that you were getting paid or supported in some way to articulate the party line and somehow support the cause, whatever that might be — possibly trying to divert people’s attention from the criminal and unethical acts of Robert Burton.
Now I wonder. You are definitely not supporting that cause with your increasingly bizarre posts.
Please read, “We Were There” (16). Does cause even a tiny bit of doubt in you?
I’m guessing Bruce will say, “Uh, uh.” And I’m beginning to think the same.
Thanks for your post: I’m keeping my (what you call “hope”, very abstract): please, re-read my post and see if the ‘naive-shoe’ still fits, it’s certainly not what I wished to share with you… As I stated, it’s a seed; disorders and severely damaged machines can be seen in many different ways.
I wonder when you draw such closed-ended visions or opinions of “damaged machines” whether or not you’ve ever ‘been inside one’ yourself?
I have experienced this possession of insanity and rigorous raw hate from others flowing through me, it having stayed and embedded itself throughout nearly every corner of my psyche through my teenage years and onwards; the transformation of the dense pain body connected to me has been one of my deepest tasks and I must admit to you, from personal experience, that no matter how insane a person looks, sounds, writes or pontificates, other forces still work very hard to keep ‘pin-holes’ occurring and one’s inner self, by some miraculous process called ‘becoming’ does sprout, if one is trying:
while, how one is trying and another is not, how trying to one is mimicking and insincere, while for the other it takes his or her spouses death or long agonizing death of themselves to shake them towards themselves, all this is mystery;
HC is stuck and as I said before, I really do not believe that he believes, so, it is very probable that he’s not even a damaged machine, just another Fellowship movie-star that’s feeding the blog and pushing buttons so to feed its pain body’s negative-reaction hungry, flip side of the darker side of the king of hearts vanity feature;
I sense he’s a smoke screen for Robert Burton, if not perhaps he’s Robert Burton himself… For the sake of true affirmative boomerang-ness, if anyone wants to address HC, I would suggest writing it thus ~
Dear Robert Burton, HC
(like a degree title, I’ll let you be creative with what the initials might stand for.)
Bruce, surely you do not think that we’re (by now) letting HC off the blog-hook, no my friend, its just another cast, in another spot, with the same worm that’s been curiously enduring multiple quick tosses here and there for thousands of ‘possible snags’, reeling in, casting out…
I am not so sure Bruce that we’ve got a ‘big one’, I’ve met ‘real’ damaged machines in my life, people that would put their boot heel across one’s pearly whites in a heart beat, drug dealers, motor cycle gang members, convicts of all sorts, dark dark people, HC does not qualify (to me) as one in the category of ‘past the point of no return’, yet, who knows, perhaps something else will ’snap’ or ‘nibble’ the other way, yes, there are incarnations down here that I would consider ‘past the point of no return’ so far as ‘this’ incarnation is concerned; maybe its just a big tractor tire caught by the under toe, maybe not, I would let out the line a bit, let it dance and roar down the rapids… there’s a lagoon at the end of all this blogging that no one can see, who knows what odd and beautiful skull caps will pop up once all this is transcended.
22 2B Now I wonder. You are definitely not supporting that cause with your increasingly bizarre posts.
Of course, the really twisted paranoid assessment of HC is that he/she/it is a former member posting here specifically to elicit all the intelligent responses we’ve had to the robotic mentations of the FoF.
“A sociopath is a person who has antisocial personality disorder. The term sociopath is no longer used to describe this disorder. The sociopath is now described as someone with antisocial personality disorder.
The main characteristic of a sociopath is a disregard for the rights of others. Sociopaths are also unable to conform to what society defines as a normal personality. Antisocial tendencies are a big part of the sociopath’s personality. This pattern usually comes into evidence around the age of 15. If it is not treated, it can develop into adulthood.
Visible symptoms include physical aggression and the inability to hold down a steady job. The sociopath also finds it hard to sustain relationships and shows a lack of regret in his or her actions. A major personality behavior trait is the violation of the rights of others. This can appear as a disregard for the physical or sexual wellbeing of another.”
Translation: I live a different reality from Bruce’s.
Howard,
Your worldview expressed in 14-11 demands the following (and much more) to be true:
• there are many lifetimes
• higher forces designed my role in ‘a play written in advance’ (yet you grant me the power of choosing to value this life over the next, and that higher forces will ‘give me what I want’!)
• persons ‘raging’ against Burton are raging against higher forces
• everyone who says, “I willingly join the damned” says that until the actual moment of joining
• that you know the ‘style’ of higher forces.
In a minor key:
• I am in a rage, or indignant, or looking without judgment, compassion, forgiveness or humility.
None of this is verifiable by you.
By all means continue to thrash around in Burton’s fantasy.
I prefer to try to live the one and only life I have verified as fully and as deeply as I can.
Charles, thanks for this terrific post. I also ran across this thread, on lightgate.net, under the Ken Wilber forums, as a topic thread called The charismatic narcissistic cult leader and his apologists. This also addresses the difficulty of speaking to people like Howard Carter, Siddiq, et.al. The post is by someone named Jim. (Disclosure: I deleted a few paragraphs and changed the word “existential” to “higher” for the sake of the audience.) Here’s more:
[begin quote]
Why do people fall under the spell of charismatic narcissistic cult leaders?
I’m posing this question without specifying any individuals, but my question is specific: I am not asking why people fall under the sway of beliefs and ideas. I am asking why people fall under the spell of charismatic narcissistic cult leaders.
It goes without saying, or should, that we would not even be able to address specific cases unless we first agreed that the charismatic cult leader in question was in fact narcissistic.
So let’s define these terms.
Charizesthai is Greek for favor or gift of divine origin, or charismata, “spiritual gifts.” Webster’s defines charisma as: “a spiritual power or personal quality that gives an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people.”
Max Weber defined charisma as “a certain quality of an individual personality by virtue of which he is considered extraordinary and treated as endowed with supernatural, superhuman, or at least specifically exceptional powers…[that] are regarded as of divine origin.”
Weber spoke of the “extraordinary” emotions of the charismatic, the ability to reach intense emotional depths and heights of ecstasy and euphoria, and a belief in his or her “calling” that arouses similar feelings in others, who become followers. The greater the intensity of the charismatic leader or teacher, the greater the intensity of his or her following. The greater the passion of the leader, the greater the passion of the followers.
Heinz Kohut analyzed and defined the narcissistic personality in great detail, but I will just mention a few of his key observations.
Two characteristics of the narcissistic personality that Kohut observed were grandiose self-confidence and an extraordinary lack of self-doubt.
People with narcissistic personalities typically have a need to define reality in their terms so as to be always right, and they typically refuse to accept criticisms or appear vulnerable.
People with narcissistic personalities can rarely admit to a gap in their knowledge.
Psychologist Len Oakes, whose focus is on the psychology of religion and issues related with new religious movements, comments on the adult narcissist:
By always being a little bit inside yet a little bit outside the world, he is well placed to diagnose its problems and devise solutions. His insights well seem to be profound truths to those who share his values and background. The talents he has developed in order to survive with his narcissistic worldview intact now give him an uncanny resonance with his times and with those who will become his followers. … Perhaps this really does give the prophet a “truth” that others lack.
Eventually the successful adult narcissist stands ready for the call to leadership. He fits in well with those who seek a new life or are in crisis. In return for their love and devotion, he leads them to the promised land, and in so doing he re-creates the ego-reflecting universe he knew as a child. The followers appreciate his vision and wisdom because he keeps his head about him in a crisis; he is above the fray (which is why narcissistic patients are so hard to treat – they can’t be reached).
Kohut says that the narcissist reacts to injuries to his worldview with “narcissistic rage.”
“Hence,” says Oakes, “he is fondest of the true believers who enthusiastically mirror his ego; those who don’t are resented.”
Many psychologists, including integral and/or transpersonal psychologists, believe that some cult leaders are both charismatic and narcissistic, and they believe that people who are particularly susceptible to such cult leaders are susceptible for particular psychopathological reasons.
As Oakes says, narcissists “can’t be reached,” and thus we find that apologists for charismatic narcissistic cult leaders often have an extraordinary lack of self-doubt, a need to define reality in their terms so as to be always right, can rarely admit to a gap in their knowledge, and are therefore beyond reach.
Personally, I think that it’s a more worthy effort to help people move beyond conventional levels into (a higher) level than it is to support charismatic movements at all. A charismatic teacher whose appeal is his charisma by definition appeals to people at conventional levels of development and not to people who are at the (higher) level. A charismatic teacher whose appeal is his charisma cannot help people move from the conventional level to the (higher) level. Someone who helps people break out of the conventional mindset that is prone to falling under the spell of charisma does far more for people than does someone who implicitly or explicitly encourages people to flock to charismatic cult leaders for spiritual guidance.
[end quote]
I think Vera-mente and I would like to be added to the CLASS-ACTION civil lawsuit. I dont’ know about Vera-mente but I would also like to see a criminal law suit against Benjamin the lawyer for FOF, Mr. Goldfinger, is it?
In or out we all have to deal with the same things.
We have to deal with our own features. We have to deal with making a living and supporting ourselves. We have to deal with our laziness in certain areas.
We have to deal with the opportunities to experience what it means to be alive. We have to deal with the emptiness that presents itself from time to time.
When it comes down to the moment, the fence is imaginary. You are in and you have some nice moments. You also have moments of worry, moments where it is hard to do what you feel is right, moments where you judge others or become impatient. Moments where you doubt your own abilities. Moments of sadness. Moments of joy.
My life is not so different. I also have nice states, states that can not be taken from me, states independent of my position, my family, my friends and certainly from the Fellowship. States where I am glad to be alive in this very strange adventure.
In some ways, your life is not much different from mine. We both strive to have the best life we can, knowing that a good life is not only about doing and receiving but also about being and giving. We both have friends. We both have fine emotions.
So the fence is largely imaginary. Life is life. But as I see it here is the difference:
I thought while I was in that I was independent, that I was free, that I was honest. I now see clearly that I was not as free or independent or honest as I thought.
Now that I am out, I am no longer a child, supporting a man that misuses the resources allocated to him (his students and the efforts of his students). I no longer am bound by his principles but am establishing my own based on my judgment which I sincerely believe is better than his. (His judgment is clearly misguided).
Since I am no longer supporting Robert and his strange habits and ideas of right and wrong, I am much lighter. Since I am no longer trying to be a person that I am not, I am starting to learn what I really am. I feel much more free to be myself and I don’t have to twist my mind to try to justify my support of Robert. This has a more positive effect than you can imagine. What an incredible relief! We have carried a tremendous and unnecessary weight without knowing it.
I am thankful for what I learned but now it is time to refine my own relationship to what it means to be alive. I don’t think life is about meetings, receptions, working long hours to support a king and his harem – nor is about the self absorption that the sequence produces.
From my experience, higher states are more loving than that and actually more easily available than that. Identification is identification regardless of the nobility of the subject and dividing every moment into work or non-work, effort or non-effort, higher self or lower self, leads to identification. Robert’s teaching brings some enjoyable moments but on the whole often leads to self-deprecation and identification. In some cases it even leads to depression. I am not saying that this is always the case, but I think it is more often the case than any of us were willing to admit.
Life is more about being honest and simple. This frees up the higher centers. Supporting Robert and his odd ways is neither honest nor simple.
Life is about discovering what I am and letting go of the king of hearts facade. It is about developing a loving family. It is about learning to love, not only my friends but also myself and this amazing place and existence in which we find ourselves. It is difficult to do this while supporting a man that does not like most of life, and who teaches through his actions and exercises the value of self absorption.
I thought I needed the FOF to keep me away from my lower self. I was wrong. The Fellowship weight was causing me to retreat into my lower self and it was heavy. I am glad that I had the opportunity to learn this lesson before I was too old to appreciate it.
I am more free and this freedom provides energy to grow, freedom to experiment, freedom to love, freedom to fail and freedom to be. It provides emotional energy which frees me from an instinctive life.
So Howard, you can continue to be afraid, afraid of what might happen to you without all the third force, without Robert’s guidance and the guidance of what you imagine to be C influence. That is fine if that is what you want. But I would suggest that it might be time to experiment. Time to see if you are really so weak that you cannot do it for yourself. I suspect you and many other students are really quite strong individuals but you have allowed yourself to be demoralized, weakened and frightened. You have allowed yourself to need a father figure to tell you what to do and how to live.
You see, you cannot understand the weight you carry and its harmful effects until it is lifted, until you are free from it. I know. I was there and my only regret was that it took me so long to find my courage.
Luckily the Fellowship allows students to return if they find they really need the third force so it is possible to experiment. Interesting that of the 10,000 or so that have left, I guess less than 100 have returned.
“They must find it difficult.
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
Rather than truth as the authority.”
G. Massey. Egyptologist.
many wonderfull posts folks. Cy.
does your Fellowship membership better equip you to come to terms with that unfortunate event, which all can agree would be a major life changing event for anyone?
As has been remarked on prior pages, Mr. Highland’s driving has been noted as aggressive and irresponsible prior to the “accident” by other members at the time. Of course he was aware “in the moment” that any other action would have crushed him with the cement he was carrying, because we know he is such a fast and deep thinker.
That line about “fill the cups of justice” reminds me of a euphemism RB used to use in reference to the “gift” he received from his male students. He used to call it “drinking from their cup”.
Folks, just for your information, Howard C is not the student who was involved in a tragic accident, and I will add, this was apparently the type of accident that could have happened to anyone.
The Benjamin Y bashing is also completely inappropriate.
Both these students, as we all are, are not perfect, but are good and decent human beings.
Of course all of this is besides the point, nothing in these smallminded personal attacks reflect anything about the Fellowship or what it stands for. We are all still human beings I think.
Of course it mostly comes from people who are not even trying to be present, but consider this: is there any activity that can be done better without presence?
I don’t think it is very twisted or paranoid. Almost every time I read one of his posts I think this is too much of a characature to be real. It is if some genius is taking all the false “esoteric” drivvel we have left behind like that black oily pool of hate and negativity left by the dying planet’s inhabitants in the old ‘Star Trek , The Next Generation’ episode.
IF that is true, my apologies to Daniel, but at this point there is little I would trust from you Siddiq. I lately find your statements and apologetics completely untrustworthy and in the similar vein to HC’s , just not as insane (yet).
Rodney Collin said that planet Earth is an infinitesimal point within a point. So how come the ego fills up the rest of starry space?
Oh, somebody was asking about the enneagram. I found for me a new book. While I was looking around the Nisagadatta website I found this, “The Tao of Chaos: Essence and the Enneagram (quantum consciousness, volumn 3, by Stephen H. Wolinsky, Ph.d.
Hey, no one needs to apologize; I am surely not doing so, not for my own posts, not for the FOF nor for RB. Bruce, I am not looking for you to trust me either. I am just stating my point of view to give a little balance to the blog. ( I do not know if for example Daniel and Benjamin are reading the blog, so they may not be there to put the matter straight).
You are right that I am going insane…slowly but surely!
Of course it mostly comes from people who are not even trying to be present…
How can you know that? You’re lying to yourself to make yourself feel superior.
…but consider this: is there any activity that can be done better without presence?
How about a good night’s sleep?
Seriously, I’d like to reply to your question. First, you are assuming that a manipulative technique like the Sequence can actually produce and prolong “presence.” Maybe so, maybe not; it’s still a technique, a form of control, something the mind is doing. As long as the mind has some practice, some technique it feels it can master (saying a mantra, watching the breath, etc.), it’s happy. But that isn’t spiritual awakening. That’s mind activity.
From Adyashanti’s book True Meditation:
“In True Meditation, we start from the foundation of letting everything be as it is. We are not moving toward the natural state [presence], or trying to create the natural state, we actually start at the natural state from the very beginning. This is what I discovered all those years ago when I started to let go of the meditator, the controller, when I sat down and simply allowed everything to be as it was. What I realized very quickly was that the peace and stillness I was trying to attain were already there. All I had to do was stop trying to attain them. All I had to do was sit down and allow my experience to be exactly as it was.”
….
“We cannot come upon the truth of our nature through manipulation. We cannot move beyond what I call the false identity, the egoic identity, by trying to change. We can only start to allow consciousness to wake up from its identification with thought and feeling, with body and mind and personality, by allowing ourselves to rest in the natural state from the very beginning.”
So while the Sequence (or any similar concentration technique) may have some temporary value in bringing your attention to the present, the technique too easily becomes an end in itself. A dead end.
Ah, the enigma Howard Carter! The fundamentalist we all love to hate or hate to love as the case may be. He is pure party line leading all the way to the top. His style of fixed and rigid thinking is why people kill each other over religious beliefs. There is virtually no other way to ‘get’ to people like them. They are THAT dedicated. They have crossed the line, sold their souls for the cause, and for them, there is no turning back.
Howard’s silence to my posts speaks volumes to me. Am I more of a ‘lost cause’ than Bruce or Cyclops, my esteemed brethren? Here’s what I think he is doing. He is baiting those who call him names to incite negativity from others in an effort to turn FOF members away from the truth. FOF members are VERY sensitive to negativity, are they not? What a perfect ploy to make FOF members weary of the blog! Notice how he backs off when bloggers go after each other!
Please, I beg you, don’t play into his insanity! If anyone here has an interest in actually helping others reading this blog still stuck in the FOF matrix to think for themselves, I recommend avoiding the emotional outbursts to his fundamentalism.
If you have an emotional response, go throw your pillow against the wall a few times instead. You will feel much better. That would be more appropriate. I am quite serious. Otherwise he will transform your negativity into more fundamentalisms, ad nauseam. Trust me there will be no end to it. Can’t you tell?
Look at his response to Ames post #1. “As far as stating “I willingly join the damned” everyone says that until the actual moment of joining.”
Does he speak from experience? Hell no, he speaks from fundamentalism! There is no argument there, only fear. Fear of the unknown is something we all share, and he uses it to reinforce the status quo.
I know it seems pointless, but confronting his warped thinking with reasonable responses is the best we can do, not to change him, that is impossible, but for the others sitting on the fence. Take the Gandhi approach, and you will expose his tyranny.
Gandhi said, “Eye for an eye makes two people blind!”
Here’s another one from Siddiq:
“About the negative press about the Sequence. Of course it mostly comes from people who are not even trying to be present, but consider this: is there any activity that can be done better without presence?”
Actually, Siddiq, first state is done better without presence if you want to get some rest. A good night’s rest is the best antidepressant I know.
And ‘trying’ to be present will only lead to failure. As Yoda said, “There is no ‘try’, there is only doing or not doing!” But that’s what keeps members stuck in the FOF matrix, too much ‘trying’ and not enough doing. That’s why you need the silly sequence.
“Instead of wine, the truck was carrying five tons of concrete curbing, which would have crushed Highland if he had slammed on the brakes, said Goldman.”
_______________________________
A fitting metaphor for the Fellowship of Friends and all that it is doing to keep students from slamming on their brakes to avoid having a head on collision with Robert Burton: hence, you must kill the third state to avoid it.
________________________________
No mention of the negligence of carrying five tons of inappropriate materials, the physics of such a load compared to what the truck is designed for, etc.; though you can be sure that it played a part in the settlement ~
Can’t wiseacre out of that one David, facts are facts, concrete is not wine (at least in the real world where there are no Christ’s turning wine into concrete so to save on the costs of building the Theatron)
~ no matter, yet another chapter in the Fellowship of Friends teaching payments going towards “Why be formatory?” Compliments of Robert Burton and Friends.
What, you say that the RVW will pay for the suit? Ha; certainly the dinosaurs know by now that Robert Burton gets proceeds from the winery sales as well, filtered and triple sifted through a myriad of credit cards and personal bank account, then given as cash ‘gifts’ (donations)…
Therefore, less money from the winery sales profits = more money from the students to pay for what RVW cannot be leeched of…
Yes, Bruce, the stomachs are turning and there’s only the pepto bismol background colors of the Galleria murals to assist them… Then again, there’s also little bottles sold at 600% mark up costs at Oregon House Grocery; students should be accustomed to that sort of math by now.
Hey David, way to go with that ’short notice’ thing… You’re ranking up there with Mary R. these days… I still love you as a friend though, no matter how silly your cerebral mercurial-contusion proves to be. Just, please try to remember this, that ignorance of the law is not the law, it is a state of essence, an innocent state, which I dare say your actions (while official) may prove to be spiritually damaging: everything is recorded, we unfold everything we’ve taken great lunatic care in folding, stashing away…
this ‘Away’ always finds us, it outlines our shadows, the produces the sound of our steps, it is the steam of our breath in December, it is the smoke at the end of a cigarette, it is the tear before and after a laughing fit, it is everything you’ve not yet asked the mirror and everything its been telling you since you’ve had ears to hear, though too busy to remember… pause my friend and remember what Buddha said ~
The principle representatives of the FoF on this blog are Siddiq and HC. Joel suggests HC is an invention by ex-students to stimulate debate, but he’s not – he’s a real, breathing person and he means what he says. For his honesty and sincerity I admire his approach more than Siddiq’s. Sure he’s two apples short of a picnic, but at least he’s passionate about what he believes.
Siddiq, on the other hand, is more like I was in the years before I left: confused and ambivalent, buffering intensely and pontificating in a phony manner about issues in which in reality he no longer believes.
If there really are 1500 people hitting on this blog every day, I assume many of them are confused students. So here’s my point: the only truthful way to remain in the FoF is to be like HC, believing everything you’re told and willing to fight for it to the death. The Siddiqs will be out before long. So if you’re a fence-sitter and you’re reading this, please try to be truthful with yourself – acknowledge that the main reason you stay is fear of the unknown, the Great Outside. It’s not too far from there to realising that there’s really nothing to be afraid of.
Howard.
Yes, you did write “ultimate authority” as opposed to “absolute authority”. What is the difference in your world?
Teaching is not about having “ultimate authority” over any student. That is simple egoism. It is not teaching. It is commanding.
“Ultimately” any good teacher wishes for students to surpass his or her knowledge, encourages them to do so and assists them in finding the way with a tireless drive, patience and enormous generosity.
Your teacher is quite clear that you will never acquire an iota of his knowledge ever and spends most of his time alienated from you while spending your money.
I knew you’d be angry that I would deign to suggest that my own life and teaching experience could be spoken in the same breath with your teacher’s.
What you don’t understand is that I know (have verified) that he is no better than me and knows no more than I do about this mysterious life in any way shape or form. I don’t worship him or anyone and he demands that. My teaching & life experience is just as valid or invalid as his.
He is, however, a fellow educator, and I do find it fascinating to observe his incredibly unethical and poor pedagogical efforts.
I am a professor and have been attempting to learn to do this well for 15 years, continue that quest and have some success. Every day it is a challenge to discover the most effective way to offer my bit of knowledge so that my students can thrive.
I do know what does not work. Most certainly it is highly ineffective to tell students that they will never accomplish their goals no matter how much effort they expend. That is manipulative and extremely selfish and egoistical and clearly signifies that they believe they own knowledge that no one else is qualified to learn.
I have deep compassion for you. If I remember correctly, you have been a member of the school for 20 or 30 years. I can only imagine the fearful confusion our words here must engender.
Still, I know you can’t hear.
Perhaps that is your sentiment about any number of us here on this discussion board. The difference is that we’ve been where you are, but you’ve never been where we are. (Yes, yes…moon food.) We’ve all been in the position of being unable to hear the truth from “inferior” human beings when we were in the school.
Bravely read “The Guru Papers” or “Cults in our Midst”, to see if you can recognize the extraordinarily typical cult situation in which you are entangled. The Fellowship is a text book example of a cult in every way and you typify its product.
Thank you for your post. You have uncovered yet another layer of the deception. Robert calls himself the ‘teacher’. Yet, as you can tell from your being, he is no teacher. You are quite right; the highest wish of a true teacher such as you is for the student to surpass them. Only then will the teacher have done their job well. Robert’s narcissism will not allow that.
But the institutional manipulation (or group hypnosis) that we become subjected to in the FOF is that Robert wishes to be addressed as ‘the teacher’ and we obey, as we were taught to respectfully obey our teachers since grade school. We were set up due to our socially conditioned response to the word, ‘teacher’.
I am quite sure your university has strict rules and a code of ethics regarding teachers sleeping with students, do they not? So in fact, you cannot compare yourself to him, because he is not a teacher at all, nor a fellow educator. You are a qualified teacher with an ethos. He is a self-appointed spiritual dictator. You allow for creativity and individuality in your students, and even encourage it, he does not. You expect your students to grow and become independent; he expects dependency, revealing his co-dependency.
So it is even a misnomer to call those in his group, ‘students’. They are followers, and they will always be followers. The only thing he teaches is mindless obedience. That takes about five minutes to learn. The rest is servitude to his perverted desires and whims.
48, Give us proof.
B is after women, personal information.
Ask the LCS how close he was to children of students.
Read the letters from Kiran and Paola and ask his ex wife about his trip to Germany.
Ask Asaaf about the stop of the Bible keys.
Dear Siddiq, it is easy to say that facts are not true but please do some research before you speak. In the fellowship it is considered lying if you do not “verify” your reactions and observations.
Keeping observing…open your ears and eyes… , forgive yourself and others.
Thanks for this blog and for the birth of the son of the blog.
Sorry Siddiq, B IS READING THE BLOG, early am
The above information is verified. And I will not tell you how I know, as I do not jeopardize students identity. Siddiq take a good night sleep.
About D is HC I do not know…could be. Killing 3 people will be something investigated deeply. If Unanimo info is correct…silence will be my answer.
HC and S, here there are the same dozen girls repeating the same stuff again and again: why don’t try letting them by themselves for a week (or a month) and observe what happens?
(please you two no need to answer this.)
Having never experienced pregnancy, I cannot say that I know what it is like. However, the process that I experience in writing to this Blog feels somewhat similar. For days, even years, there are “I’s” or understandings that float around in what some psychologists might call the subconscious, then suddenly they pop out and demand to take form.
Here is one such birth:
Approximately 20+ years ago, when Miles left the School, I, along with many others, was unexpectedly exposed to information which I was not prepared to digest. To put it briefly, Miles called Robert criminal, Robert called Miles criminal, and both were true! Personally, I was in an untenable position, seemingly forced to make a spiritual choice that I was unable to make. The psychological tension of that particular play went on for the good part of a year or longer. During that time, certain states and understandings became possible that were clearly not accessible in my normal, second state life. Essentially, living on the edge of a nervous breakdown helped me to choose Self-Remembering in what I perceived to be a School. Robert’s criminality towards individual students might be bad, but Miles’ departure from the vehicle of Self Remembering (the School) and his dissolution encouragement towards so many others seemed worse.
At that time, we would often speak of the baby and the bathwater analogy, i.e. “don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater”. Thus, I simply felt that Miles threw out the baby (Self Remembering) with the bathwater, whereas Robert, just made the bathwater a little dirty from time to time, but it was all transformable, wasn’t it? And for me, even at that time, somehow it was.
I can remember one particular experience from this that period. I had the luck (it was the play) to be singing with the Renaissance Chorus and Orchestra in a performance of the Messiah (which had always been a dear love of mine) at the Town Hall. It was one of the most remarkable experiences I think I have ever had. Opening my mouth up to sing released and transformed all that pent up nervous energy, such that I became the words that I was singing. Song after song, I sang the language of the Soul. And I knew it and I understood it. And it was Me, but a Me that included everyone else. And it was Truth. And it was All and Everything. Words now cannot even come close to describing that experience. But somehow I equally knew that everything I currently understood would not be available to me tomorrow or even in a few hours time, the memory, yes, but not it’s contents. The understanding was only available in the Present and when I myself was purely transparently existing in it. Afterwards, in the car, while parking to go up to the Lodge, I was still sizzling with so much Hydrogen 12, I can remembering making love to a male student towards whom I was not so attracted to in the first place. Wow. The baby was alive and well!
But now, 20+ years on, as a School environment for encouraging Self Remembering, what do we have? To my perception we have a Teacher who continually pollutes the bathwater to such an extent that the babies are growing up sick and deformed. The sex, the money, the power, are mere smoke screens that hide the true poverty of the situation. Witness the current nature of Robert’s teaching, a barren second state Sequence, promising so much more, if only one can do it often enough, and/or intensively enough. And maybe some of us can (push the Sequence that far), such that they find themselves suddenly existing in a world far more alive than they had ever supposed, as I did on the Town Hall stage so many years ago. Yet, as a Teacher himself, who is supposedly inhabiting these higher realms of Consciousness, there is no fresh inspiration coming from his own Being. There is creative wiseacring, to be sure, but true Conscious inspiration? I don’t hear it. His need to rely on the words of others keeps him from being able to react freshly to his Students in the Moment that he tells us he occupies so fully, with a Conscious Love towards us that he tells us he feels. It just may not be true.
Long term students who are still healthy, look around and consider that it may be time to get out of the bath. Younger students are too healty to notice the dirty bathwater. A few other vibrant individuals have found ways to keep their own bathwater relatively clean. Most hard and front liners however have become fixed and formatory in their need to protect the Grand Polluter, as stunted in their own spiritual growth as that of their Teacher. Would that it were not so, yet is.
Witness again the transformation of understanding that is occurring on this Blog about the true nature of Self Remembering itself, an understanding transformed through Advaita non duality. So that we finally understand that Self Rembering is not an end in itself, but rather a stage along the way towards Self Realization. Does Robert understand this? Do we have a Teacher that can speak of such regions? Thereby encouraging us to get past him in order to leap up to such places in ourselves? I don’t see it, I don’t hear it, would that I did.
When I first heard about the famous 44 a student told me there were more.
I’m not sure of the quote but it goes something like this, ” a pygmy sees further standing on the shoulders of a giant”.
“All the valuable things, material, spiritual, and moral, which we receive from society can be traced back through countless generations to certain creative individuals”.
what a lovely idea. You guys should really be spending more time on all the important things in your life and let us rot here by ourselves for a while.
I was starting to wonder, why are you still hanging around this blog, reading so many worthless ‘I’s’? You are so right, we just keep repeating ourselves, we get super negative, and we don’t make any efforts to be less mechanical.
We are really just a dozen bad girls gossiping and looking for trouble…
Maybe not the right hydrogen to feed your evolution and evoke Divine Presence.
Much better to work wth the sequence!
It is very cold and lonely out here, but we’ll try to survive until you come back.
Of course, we will miss your pearls of wisdom, but we’ll try to keep each other entertained with our own wiseacreings.
See you in a month, Dear Golb, and may the schwartz be with you too!
73 Yesri baba …and we will be back to “As the World Turns” after these messages. (or is it “General Hospital”?)
Yes, definitely a bit like a soap opera all of this. While we get a peak into RB’s bedroom, or wherever it is he does what he does, we’re also getting glimpses into the alleged habits of some of his followers — alleged porno addictions, group sex, promiscuity, alleged reckless driving habits, serious drinking problems, and so on.
Maybe not shocking. But I do have a question: Could it be that RB’s “behaviors” actually are soothing for all of us who remain in the Fellowship? In other words, if he does “this” all of the time, and he’s also conscious and a Man No. 7 and the conduit to Higher Forces, and “The Teacher”…
… then maybe — just maybe — my alcohol problems, my spousal abuse, my promiscuity, my destructive behavior — are not that bad?
Is this one of many reasons that we’ve had so much trouble listening to any criticism of this guy? Because if we did, we’d need to start facing our own mess? Our own flaws?
Anyway, happy 36th Anniversary everyone. To some of my friends there who undoubtedly are having a bbq to celebrate. May our time at Via Del Sol, Mt. Carmel, Renaissance, Apollo, Isis, truly not be wasted years.
“July 7, 2005: At the start of the July 4th dinner celebrating the 34th anniversary of the founding of Apollo, our Teacher gave a toast announcing that we are changing the name of Apollo to Isis. He had been considering a change for some time, but was unclear which of two names to use. Wayne and Corinne Mott told Robert that on their recent travel to Los Angeles to see the King Tut exhibit they passed a street named “Apollo” and right afterwards they came upon another street called “Isis”. This was sufficient for Robert to recognize this is indeed the name to use to best express the new being and direction of our School.
“Isis represents the nine of hearts, a forerunner of Mary mother of Christ (Steward) and also Work ‘I’ #1: Be Present. In the photograph below, she is shown on the left, whereas her sister, Nephthys, who represents Work ‘I’ #2: Prolong Presence, is shown on the right. Between the two female figures is that of Osiris-Re, who represents the Steward. The figure of Osiris-Re stands upon an Egyptian hieroglyphic symbol that means “Truth”. Truth represents the Thirty Work ‘I’s. The hands of Isis and Nephthys are positioned alongside Osiris-Re, supporting the Steward in the effort to assert and prolong presence.”
Thanks for your heartfelt post to Howard. We are simpatico, my friend. When two similar waves traveling from two different directions meet, no matter what their age, they merge in resonance and become greater. I am sustained and empowered as I know others newly freed are from reading about your path at the crossroad of this blog.
First of all, thanks for the great posts and happy Independence Day to everyone.
Since some of you mentioned enjoying the “Headless Way” website, I’d like to inform you that I found through a link on “Sarlo’s Guru Rating Service,” which contains a very long list of gurus, dead and alive, divided into cathegories and complete with short descriptions and links.
Of course, one can totally disagree with Sarlo’s opinions and ratings, but it’s fun to see Gurdjieff, Nisargadatta, Adyashanti, Eckart Tolle and Krishnamurti all up there at the top (together with many others, including Osho; now, I’m not sure how I feel about Osho, but he sure had a wicked sense of humor, and you’ve got to love that space-age look).
Anyway, if you are in the mood for guru shopping, or just looking for some relativity, go check it out.
Laura
PS I almost forgot, you can find Robert too, unrated, under “Miscellaneous”. The info and links need some updating.
Gee, when you posted your post about the sequence the garbage truck arrived just outside my home on the right side of the street symbolizing the garbage that Robert spews out about the sequence being right work of centers and somehow connected to Egypt, reminding me that in Cairo there are no garbage trucks, but a whole class of people who collect garbage and sell it to others, because the stewards of that city don’t have the compassion to spend their funds for the good of those living there, like at Isis where there is no health insurance, they spend money protecting their cash flow from the spectators who come to see the artifacts stolen from the graves of the Pharaohs who undoubtedly would be pissed at how their sacred names and symbols are commercialized and used by others not even remotely on their divine level to prostitute something that already exists any known as presence..
WhaleRider (82): Yes, as I was reading that old email (79), I was trying to find at least one coherent idea in it… something, anything, that might make sense, that would be inspiring or enlightening and helpful, and that would help all of us strengthen our understanding. But nothing. Just words patched together — words that sounded like they signified something, but that signified nothing.
The question is, what’ll be the next name change, the next change in direction? What new art form? Will it be a new focus on the ancient esoteric knowledge of Central America, and the subsequent abandonment of all things Egypt? Or will it be a focus on the esoteric meanings of the Zodiac (actually someone sent out an email some time ago asking followers to help with research on the Zodiac, but nothing more was said about that to my knowledge).
Of course, this means I am “identified with the form of the school.” Ah, another very effective method of thought control. Any questions regarding the use of funds are “identification.”
One of the more ironic twists to the last couple of years in the fof was the “abandonment of Shakespeare.” As far as I know, he wasn’t removed from the list of 44 conscious beings, but Robert gave a decree that Shakespeare plays would be discontinued. All that after building a huge outdoor amphitheatre that presumably would be perfect for a play now and then. But I sense that RB thought that “the theater” might get out of his control. A good facility and many willing participants, and suddenly you have something that overshadows RB.
Meanwhile, high up on the hill, the statue of Karl Werner stands on a crumbling platform. Weeds are growing out of the cracks in the cement. Most of the wine tanks are removed. Disrepair. Abandonment.
Not what people imagined. But remember, that’s identification. Back to the Sequence please. Back to fundraising.
Hey, guys. There is another one of those retroactive posts that slipped through a small crack. Some of you might have missed it?
Check out Baby in the Bathwater #[74].
Nice post, Baby. Thanks
Comrade, I felt that same sadness when I heard that the beautiful vineyard is a shadow of its former self. And now the image of the crumbling ‘platform’ of Karl Werner…it is painful…soon the weeds growing out of the cement will allow the Earth to reclaim the land with new life. I highly recommend a trip to Yosemite or the Grand Canyon to recharge your spirit. The Earth in her infinite beauty will never shun you; your body is part of her, and she is your true divine Mother. All you need to do is place yourself there at Her breast, and She will nurture you back to life. She is is inexhaustible.
The theater was out of Robert’s control because the plays empowered the actors to express negativity without being identified. That’s dangerous to his flock! It demonstrates that people don’t ‘lose’ their work when they express those hydrogens, but are in fact cleansed and exalted. By repressing negative feelings, it puts a person on edge, and then they can be manipulated more easily. That’s how the military works. Aggression and hostility are cultivated in the underlings by the ‘insulated’ leaders of higher rank and then directed toward the ‘enemy’.
Walt Whitman had a vision of the “City of Friends”. The Fellowship of Friends tried to appeal to this vision. We responded with mighty efforts, so where did it go wrong? The answer to me is that the same vision can be manifested in different ways, here are two…
In patriarchal–hierarchical organizations/societies (those stifling the counter-stream) we find polarities; the teacher, unable to think, who takes pleasure in crippling or limiting the minds of his students; the mediocrity who takes pleasure in demolishing greatness; the eunuch who takes pleasure in the castration of all pleasure; the stagnant who takes pleasure in chaining the abilities of competitors; the neurotic who takes pleasure in diminishing the self-esteem of others; the incompetent who takes pleasure in defeating achievement; the whining sneak who takes pleasure in his own sense of importance by bearing tales to those he sees as important. In this society, each person avoids the eye of his neighbor; despises himself by despising those around him (especially those outside his own group), thinks in terms of dualities. He has friends only to reinforce his weaknesses and bear his complaints.
In creative organizations/societies (those practicing reciprocal maintenance) we find: the teacher who glories in the achievement of his students—whose greatest achievement is the student who surpasses him; the true individual who esteems, encourages, and prizes individuality above all else in others; the mystic who sees others only at their fullest potential—the God within them; the leader whose chief ambition is to replace himself with two others like himself; the businessman who hires the best, even if it means those better or more talented than he; the worker who does his job using all the energy, ability and gifts that he has—ambitious to progress. In this society, each person looks his neighbor in the eye, exchanging looks of vitality, joy for life, sense of common adventure, encouragement and self–worth. He thinks in terms of commonalities and connectedness. He has friends who bring out the best in him and who expect likewise.
Thanks, WhaleRider. Probably my words conveyed more sadness than I had intended, but there is a sadness to things when you think back on what we believed many years ago compared to the reality of the fof both then and now. And I’m sure that’s what you detected in me.
It’s embarassing for Robert if people think back on what the Fellowship “was about” for many years. This is one of the reasons that wikipedia editors have done everything they can to delete all references to the predictions of the earthquake in 1984, nuclear war in 2006, and the ark. The history of the group is partly what reveals the insanity of it.
Great idea about Yosemite and the Grand Canyon. Thanks again WR. And thanks to everyone for so many outstanding posts.
74 baby in the bathwater: “Witness again the transformation of understanding that is occurring on this Blog about the true nature of Self Remembering itself, an understanding transformed through Advaita non duality. So that we finally understand that Self Rembering is not an end in itself, but rather a stage along the way towards Self Realization. Does Robert understand this? Do we have a Teacher that can speak of such regions? Thereby encouraging us to get past him in order to leap up to such places in ourselves? I don’t see it, I don’t hear it, would that I did.”
Remember that CD that was circulating a while ago, in which some FoF students asked Adyashanti about self-remembering, teachers and schools? He replied with complete coherence and honesty, and very credibly. It would be interesting if Robert Burton could be asked his opinions about Advaita – what he thinks about the ideas that we don’t exist, that we are awareness, that we are already awake, and so on. I mean he’s supposed to be a spiritual teacher, right? So why is this so inconceivable? His world is now so utterly closed that he can’t conceive of any reality other than his own.
78 Comrade: excellent point. Helps to explain why FoF marriages are often such a mess.
86 Whalerider: Another reason for the abandonment of Shakespeare was simply that Robert didn’t like his plays, probably partly because he’s too thick to understand them. He started encouraging students to write plays based upon “conscious” themes, eg an embarrassingly awful version of the Conference of the Birds. Shakespeare’s works are the exact opposite of the current FoF; they burst forth full of life, joy, creativity, inclusiveness, pretty much everything!
It is a crime for a human beeng to place himself in a position of a God and have another human beeng to be his subject. It is not a liberation, it is enslavement.
This puts all of of his “students”(subjects) in an enferior position (self-pity) out of which it is imposible to get out as long as one remains in this relationship of Student-Master.
It is very obvious after all these years many of us have experienced in the School that the Robert has no interest in our freedom. He is more interested in all the benefits he gets: sexual slaves, power, luxury, comfort, etc..
It is very easy to see the negative results of this corruption: the lack of common human
external consideration. A lot of students have given so much to Robert that they have no provided for they own basic needs.
Robert has no concern for this, however his personal desires and sick fantasies are fulfilled to extreme levels.
It’s a bit dry here to let off fireworks, could catch the whole place ablaze like 1997, which might reinforce another predictions forthcoming, so, in here, in this mighty and beautiful amazon jungle (where they’re not logging) I set off a few full sky showers of falling stars, orange, red, blue, white…. Independence day is every day you’re not pretending to be an orphan in the Fellowship of Friends orphanage.
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Hello Rhino Neal ~
You wrote ~
“For his honesty and sincerity I admire his approach more than Siddiq’s. Sure he’s two apples short of a picnic, but at least he’s passionate about what he believes.
Siddiq, on the other hand, is more like I was in the years before I left: confused and ambivalent, buffering intensely and pontificating in a phony manner about issues in which in reality he no longer believes.”
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Rhino, I would say that the one who’s closer to leaving (according to you) the Fellowship of Friends is the one whose ‘approach’ is more ‘honest and sincere’ (to me)…
What would you really want to hold true to your heart as “honest and sincere”, a crystallized mind-form as yourself based upon another’s ‘higher’ ‘lump of milk-crystal’ or the state of experiencing the unknown, of being insincere due to a real state (whether the participant acknowledges it in writing or not) of confusion and personal make-believe.
To me, the sandbox was never a place to stay too long, once there was more than two in there, things got a little bit, lets say, accidental. Perhaps there are bigger sandboxes; the ones I remember were about 4 feet by 4 feet.
So, as far as I have seen it in the Fellowship of Friends, there’s definitely a 3 foot by 3 foot one; meaning that such people like S & H have just enough room for themselves and one other (if they’re really careful),
this other is a friend; the trouble starts when Robert Burton wants to play too… here is the tough part.
I would say that 80% of the remaining students stay in because of this second person, not the third (second line becomes a kind of make believe third line)…
Many are staying for these ‘friends’ only and will do so or leave, as the mathematics start to sway in which ever fence-sides favor is current, due to the proximity of their friends position at the fence.
In their hearts, many rarely connect Robert Burton to their deeds and efforts, this has been a kind of inner ritual of wiseacring for 35+ years,
all along missing the corner of their own room, where avoiding Robert’s issues is a mirror of that which they allow to stay in that same corner, something that’s from themselves that is synonymous with Robert Burton…
They ‘baby’ his wounds by meticulously pecking away at the scab, selling the little bit’s as heirlooms and jewelry settings and keep it fresh and shinny, with a dash of salt from time to time to get a little ‘jolt’ to jump start their drone-ship.
It’s difficult to realize that there’s a sky other than the one in the house where your fishbowl sits; and once outside, still, there’s one above earth’s ground, i.e., the sky belonging to the planet itself, not us, so to speak.
After several rather ‘intense’ encounters this week with ’still in students’ it occurred to me that The Fellowship of Friends is not a family, it is an orphanage;
many ‘things’ sorta ‘tied themselves off and unraveled at the same time’ when this metaphor applied itself to Robert Burton’s ’school’…
In orphanages, there’s always a chance of someone being asked to leave, being adopted by another ‘family’, to go to another orphanage, abused by the headmaster or simply killing themselves for lack of a certain ‘automatic family tolerance’ (although some ‘real’ family’s do not have this either)…
Without going too far into the literal side of the metaphor, I simply sensed that its ‘general form’ fit the Fellowship of Friends much more than a family, where there is a certain ’sisterhood’ and ‘brotherhood’ working;
yet, every man is an island at Isis, except on Sundays and when students rally together while Robert Burton is the ‘third force’ (his actual crippled First Force & First Line), to buffer their ‘in the moment needs’ with his;
those in a school of relative awakening need to be needed, yet, the Holy Reconciling is missing: are there not those who love to be loved yet do not love the lover loving them? This is the story of Robert and Friends.
Rhino, I find it a bit odd that you can “admire” someone who at the same time you feel is “two apples short of a picnic”… I sense there’s a buffer holding these two unresolved impressions together as one…
HC’s posts are truly ‘everything else’ than that which is to be admired; just take a look a at few facts (particularly the one that Whalerider points out) ~
That HC constantly skirts around the ‘point blank’ questions that cannot be answered without a connection with his more ‘personal’ conscious conscience; he chooses only to reply to certain generalities in a language that’s about as passionate as a ballerina with a compound fracture…
get a grip on that huge battering ram of a horn that’s stationed on top of your snout; only an essence still in the sway of Robert Burton’s vulcan mind grip would see HC’s language and ’surgery for money’ tee-shirt as something to admire…
What I admire is that the Sheik has not barred his ‘act’ from the blog, nor have we; unlike some we know would if HC’s wiseacring was suddenly reversed in ‘you know whose’ direction.
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Hello Cake please ~
You wrote ~
“to M (S?)
13/794 unoanimo
Say it ain’t so, Mari. Say it ain’t so.
dismayed
Cake”
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Oh, but it is my friend; M has some issues still with needing satellites, particularly girls who need to be satellites; these girls provide the perfect Archetypal role for M. and her ‘wanna be Robert’s sister’ dreamworld.
See, M. has an incredible freedom within her spontaneous spirit, she’s a bit wild (which if not doused with ‘dirty baby water’ would thrive and probably grow into one of those mythological awesome feminine characters like Athena or Isis (that’s ironic),
yet, at Isis, she’s always been on the fringes with Robert Burton, to me, mainly because she represents the consciously-free-to-choose-and-move-with-that-choice-woman, the wild, essence-open feminine,
something which makes Robert’s feminine-account-driven-pain body very nervous and out of a role; leaving him starring at his real work…
Many like her have found iron-clad ways of buffering this spontaneous impulse within themselves by digging their hole to China even more furiously, i.e., lunatic-identification with their roles…
Not to worry my friend, M’s little debut for Robert Burton will be short lived like the hundreds of others; it’s strange, yet there are those in between men and women who show up from time to time to do a little dance for Robert Burton and Friends, then disappear for another 3-4 months; yes, there are personal smoke screens at Isis as well as institutional ones.
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Hello ~ Baby in the bathwater
You wrote ~
“And maybe some of us can (push the Sequence that far), such that they find themselves suddenly existing in a world far more alive than they had ever supposed, as I did on the Town Hall stage so many years ago. Yet, as a Teacher himself, who is supposedly inhabiting these higher realms of Consciousness, there is no fresh inspiration coming from his own Being.”
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Wow…now there’s some ’scale & relativity’… thank you for sharing your observations. Imagine that (so to speak), someone who inhabits higher realms, though has no fresh inspiration for those who he or she does not directly ‘touch’ or ‘call upon’ (to seem inspirational by igniting their features, not higher centers) to redirect their focus from themselves to his or herself.
I would say you’re spot on here, particularly with your writings ‘allude to-ness’ and ‘implications’…
And if you were to “push the Sequence that far..” you may end up like Janna, who, when telling Kevin B. (who apparently had yet to push it that far or admitted it), that she no longer needs ‘form’ to define herself, that she feels ‘awake’, needing nothing, no sequence, etc. ~
She was asked to leave the school;
in a real school she would be asked to teach, to share her experience, particularly with those like Mari R., who came into the Fellowship of Friends with certain ‘Daddy’s girl’ inclinations and have been exploited for it ever since.
Robert Burton plays peoples features and pain body receptors, he does not invest in their Higher Centers, nor does he have a backup plan for those who do ‘make it’…
He simply calls certain people’s mystical experiences, change in level of being, from form to formlessness, ‘the king of clubs’ or ‘imagination’…
Perhaps Robert Burton’s excuses for his ’students’ true level of being showing itself as something mechanical to himself and to be perceived so by others, including their friends, rather than individual consciousness becoming, is his own self-reflective-echo coming from within him, his own silliness titling others ’silly’.
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Hello Comrade ~
You wrote ~
“… then maybe — just maybe — my alcohol problems, my spousal abuse, my promiscuity, my destructive behavior — are not that bad?
Is this one of many reasons that we’ve had so much trouble listening to any criticism of this guy? Because if we did, we’d need to start facing our own mess? Our own flaws?”
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Thank you for your post and clean honesty…
Yes, its hard to see the crystal ball image belonging to the Fellowship of Friends due to all the sticky fingerprints upon its curved surface. It’s even tough for professional soothsayers in there, let alone the ‘wanna be’s’.
Your post explicitly shows the situation within every footprint follower of Robert Burton; it’s ok if he’s walking in a circle so long as the circle is big enough that their peripheral-conscience doesn’t get a glimpse of his equator-routine.
What I quoted from you above could serve as a real ‘cannon’ for real work, in a real school; to blow a hole in the facade of the Titanic, letting it fall as the one dimensional Goliath it is; a movie set construction for a school of relative awakening.
____________________________
You also wrote ~
“But I sense that RB thought that “the theater” might get out of his control. A good facility and many willing participants, and suddenly you have something that overshadows RB.”
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Yes, something that gets too close to resembling his farce is a bit too obvious and may conjure ‘footnote taking’;
for the most part Robert Burton never attended the theater productions, neither those of the Apollo Arts or the Lewis Carrol School, whose director is/was Mary R. BTW.
This was always ‘felt’ in the guts of the students as Robert Burton’s little reminder that ‘theater’ is beneath him and their aim to awaken; we won’t take into consideration that he did go to operas with the boys while traveling and theatrical ballet performances; nor will we take into consideration that it was originally invented by a conscious school as a tool; of which ballet was never, nope, only short ‘be’ for the Fellowships aim to awaken, not the now, now.
Yes, the theater octave, being ‘naturally’ very saturnine, left him out totally (thank you god),
not that Robert Burton doesn’t know anything about Narcissus Theater, yet this is a different kind of sandbox (12 inches by 12 inches) where one just stands and plays with different patterns of one’s own footprints in the sand and on the ‘mechanical’ butts of others, coming and going at Isis.
Robert Burton did attend a few in the Theatron, though very often would leave at intermission; just a little reminder that ‘even in the Theatron’, whatever ‘play’ that does not celebrate his ‘reflection’ is beneath him:
too bad Brian and Genia didn’t have the ‘i’ to put up a 30 foot by 80 foot portrait of Robert Burton as the backdrop for those performances, perhaps intermission would have been canceled altogether; otherwise, its the perfect backdoor for Robert and clan.
Yes, at ‘Apollo’ for Isis is simply too ‘humble’ now; theater was the ultimate symbol of a bigger picture than a ‘one-man-band’, later to be replaced with theme less ballet performances and ballet circus acts;
not to mention Robert Burton’s late night (up till 2am) after performance parties for the dancers and the fellowship elite, where he would be fawned over by the very overly compensated ballet dancers (Russians) and have his ‘Russian boys’ try and get them to join the school.
Christ! Robert, can’t you keep your hands to yourself?
“Well, no dear, see they’re not my hands, their actually 44+ pairs of hands here, what’s a guy to do?”
Ever corner of said ‘freedom’ at Isis has Robert Burton’s phone number on its wall.
Unoanimo (97), haven’t you noticed that crazy people who express themselves unselfconsciously are often more interesting than crazy people who pretend to be normal? At least you know where you stand with them. I had lunch accidentally with HC shortly before I left. The conversation was mostly about the fact that hydrogen warfare had not occurred in the previous week, despite RB’s prediction: whether the date might be revised and so on. This was definitely more entertaining than the usual chit-chat about the sequence and/or recent amazing discoveries in Egypt. It takes courage to write the nonsense HC writes here, and it’s useful for current FoFers to be reminded about what “good students” are supposed to believe. Long may he contribute!
“Unoanimo (97), haven’t you noticed that crazy people who express themselves unselfconsciously are often more interesting than crazy people who pretend to be normal?”
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Ah, no, Rhino, I have yet to entertain the virus ‘wiseacring’ to party that hard upon the disco dance floor of my heart to be strobe-lighted enough to make a distinguishable ‘pair’ from what to me is one and the same.
Is ‘unselfconscious’ any different than ‘pretending to be normal’… I really don’t see the dividing line here(?)
I mean, yes, opossums and kangaroos are both marsupials, yet, just because you don’t see kangaroos hanging from tree limbs by their tails doesn’t make them any less ‘marsupial’ or am I missing something here?
__________________________________
Isis update (sorta) ~
Public announcement ~
“Dear Friends,
Over the weekend, we received a shock when a student’s home was broken into and valuable items were stolen.
Robert reminds us to lock our homes and our cars. He requests that we also try to be present to any unusual activity at other students’ homes. As he said, ‘we need to look out for each other’.
Love,
Helaine
For Isis Center Directors
“Eternal friendships are part of the greatness of schools.”
Love, Robert
Aelred of Rievaux: “This is true and eternal friendship, which begins in this life and is perfected in the next.””
____________________________________________
Unoanimo (99): I haven’t got a clue what you’re trying to say. Any chance you could put it in simple English? I get the impression it might be interesting. yrs, RN
To Howard Carter,
Christ said “if you want to be perfect, give up everything you own and follow me”.
This proves that Christ had a wicked sense of humor and that you do not.
Love,
Ryan.
Hi guys,
A reminder about the Contact list.
If you wish to be included in the contact list AND get an invitation for Greater Fellowship community – please submit your info to malaec@optonline.net
I am hoping to mail out the list as soon as I return from our Cape Cod vacations!
Most people provided their name, e-mail, phones, years in FOF. You can also list address, website, occupation if you wish. The list is made in Excel – simple spreadsheet.
Greater Fellowship online community is just too much fun! Over 300 members in about 3 weeks, and growing every day. Pictures, stories, videos, music, openness, discussion groups. No propaganda, no complaints, no anger – just our friendship, our desire to stay connected and find good old friends.
Works by invitation only and protected by password.
Anonymity is not encouraged – it is very open, positive site where hiding doesn’t seem to work.
So please send your info if you wish to participate in any of this to
Howard Carter, Can you envision Jesus Christ getting his diciples to piss in his mouth and ram their fists up his anus as well as sucking there cocks every day ? Please answer the question directly.
“Unoanimo (97), haven’t you noticed that crazy people who express themselves unselfconsciously are often more interesting than crazy people who pretend to be normal?”
“Unoanimo (99): I haven’t got a clue what you’re trying to say. Any chance you could put it in simple English? I get the impression it might be interesting. yrs, RN”
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For me there’s no difference between someone who expresses themselves “unselfconsciously” and what you also term as “crazy people who pretend to be normal.”
Howard #101, that’s what the disciples of Jim Jones did, they were indoctrinated to surrender everything they own including their bodies…they too didn’t ‘own’ their bodies either, Christ did. As an act of the same level of obedience and surrender that is frothing out of your mouth, the followers of Jim Jones staged a heinous play. Robert chooses to star in his own gay porno film.
Beware of the dark side, Howard. May the schwartz be with you.
I appreciate your postings. I like how you are keeping your line consistently and “in the kings”. I would sleep better if you were right and not the “rest of the blog”. All these “negative people”… But any time I think that for 38 years (and right now and will continue) RB is screwing the guys, my friends, damaging their essences, causing this never ending craze, FEAR. How he confuses them by lying to them, manipulating them, uses them and throws away – I can’t sleep anymore. I have a child and I don’t want anything bad to happen to him. I don’t want him to know about what is going on in this organization, were his mom belongs. I can hear the question of the child: “Why is Robert having sex with all these men?”
So, WHY? They don’t want it. They hate it. But they do it. Tonight is someone’s “visit time” after the dinner. And tomorrow. Can anyone, anything STOP THIS CRIME???
Viewer Beware: the contents of this video may result in instant cosmic awareness of the totality of the now, resulting in a possible shift of mental structure-ness and FoF fizzle.
Unoanimo #97 Thanks for your discourse about the demise of the theater octave. It jogged some memories. It reminded me that Alex Horn wrote plays and “his students both acted in them and were forced to sell tickets or he’d close his school”, is the way I heard it verbatim from one of Horn’s group. So stage plays might just have a certain ‘negative nostalgia’ for old Bob. The theater octave was ill-fated from the start.
Plus, stage plays require directors, who are usually good at directing people, and that would start to symbolize (or even become) a school within a school, a sun orbiting a sun, if you know what I mean. And that’s against the law. Since Robert enjoys ballets, eh? Maybe he sees himself more as choreographer of bodies and body parts… I hear he has become quite the choreographer behind the scenes.
Anyway, I have a copy of Alex Horn’s book of plays, “Theater of All Possibilities”, for anyone inclined to read it or ‘own’ it. The plays are not that good. There’s a Kennedy-conspiracy one, I recall. Gee, no photos of Robert acting in the plays, though. He was busy chasing boys backstage, I guess.
If anyone wants my copy of “Theater of All Possibilities”, let me know, and we’ll figure out a way for me to send it to you anonymously. Gratis.
It’s another step in my personal divestment plan of separating RB from The Fourth Way, as he already had long ago.
“Howard,
Your worldview expressed in 14-11 demands the following (and much more) to be true:
• there are many lifetimes”
It is written about in every major spiritual tradition, by all the major sages/prophets of those traditions.
“• higher forces designed my role in ‘a play written in advance’(yet you grant me the power of choosing to value this life over the next, and that higher forces will ‘give me what I want’!)
This is a difficult concept to grasp but one that is also found in every major tradition; Fate, Destiny, Karma, recurrence, reincarnation, etc. All these are held in balance by the concept of “Free Will”. It is an enigma; we are not meant to understand these things in their entirety. We can intuit them.
“• persons ‘raging’against Burton are raging against higher forces”
He is their creation.
“• everyone who says, “I willingly join the damned” says that until the actual moment of joining”
This is verifiable on many levels in life; people say they’ll do something willingly until it’s time to do it and then they change their tune.
“• that you know the ‘style’ of higher forces.”
Recent meeting quote – We can know Allah through Allah. We can know what’s other than Allah by the light of Allah.
“In a minor key:
• I am in a rage, or indignant, or looking without judgment, compassion, forgiveness or humility.
None of this is verifiable by you.”
I verify it simply by reading your posts.
(I said with judgment)
“By all means continue to thrash around in Burton’s fantasy.
I prefer to try to live the one and only life I have verified as fully and as deeply as I can.”
Knowing or believing “multiple lifetimes” does not hinder one in any way from living this life to its fullest.
“The only defense needed is knowledge. Knowledge defends you against every possible form of harm in existence.
The more knowledge you have, the less fear you have, the less pain you have, the less stress you feel, the less anguish you feel, and the less danger you experience of any form or sort.
Think of this very carefully now for this is very important: Where is there any limitation in the concept behind the word “knowledge”? Being that there is no limitation, what is the value of that word? Infinite. Can you conceive of how that one concept, that one meaning frees you from all limitation?
Use your sixth sense to conceive of how the word, the term, the meaning of knowledge can provide you with all that you could possibly ever need. If you think carefully you will begin to see glimpses of how this is true in its greatest possible form.”
Q: There are an awful lot of people who are being open and trusting and having faith who are getting zapped and knocked on their rears.
A: No. That is simply your perception. What you are failing to perceive is that these people are not really gathering knowledge. These people are stuck at some point in their pathway to progress and they are undergoing a hidden manifestation of what is referred to in your terms as obsession. Obsession is not knowledge, obsession is stagnation.
So, when one becomes obsessed, one actually closes off the absorption and the growth and the progress of soul development which comes with the gaining of true knowledge.
For when one becomes obsessed one deteriorates the protection, therefore one is open to problems, to tragedies, to all sorts of difficulties. Therefore one experiences same.
WHEN THE PROPHECY FAILS (former student and bla bla)
For religious groups there can be no greater disappointment than that which occurs after the failure of a major prophecy to materialize. The historical literature is replete with examples of groups who have predicted the end of the world and their reactions to failed prophecy. Stark (1996:137) asserts:
Other things being equal, failed prophecies are harmful for religious movements. Although prophesies may arouse a great deal of excitement and attract many new followers beforehand, the subsequent disappointment usually more than offsets these benefits.
His argument is that in some instances members may leave the group and the group finally disintegrates. In other cases, members can withstand this catastrophic event and the group continues. However, he qualifies this statement by asserting that new religious movements are likely to succeed to the extent that their doctrines are non-empirical. Religious movements need not deliver on their promises in this world — their most valuable rewards are obtained in a reality beyond inspection.
The standard paradigm for understanding failed prophecy is based on cognitive dissonance theory (Festinger, Reiken and Schachter 1956). Following their research on a flying saucer movement, Festinger and his colleagues argued that failure of prophecy resulted in intensification of belief and more enthusiastic proselytising by sect members. Proselytization, the attempt to convince outsiders of a belief system, was regarded as reducing cognitive dissonance. If more people adopt this belief it must after all be true. According to Festinger et al. (1956:3):
Man’s resourcefulness goes simply beyond protecting a belief. Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, but he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: What will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view.
Festinger argued that for such a process to occur there must be firm conviction; there must be public commitment to this conviction; the conviction must be amenable to unequivocal disconfirmation; such unequivocal disconfirmation must occur; and lastly, social support must be available to the believer subsequent to the disconfirmation. To reduce psychological dissonance, Festinger’s theory of cognitive dissonance predicts that the dissonance produced by disconfirming information will be reduced by adding new cognitions consonant with the set of cognitions most resistant to change.
This theory, however, has come under some criticism by scholars of religion, on both methodological and theoretical grounds. The validity of their original research has been questioned (Melton 1985; Van Fossen 1988; Bainbridge 1997). Van Fossen (1988) refers to Festinger as a “radically deficient guide” to studying the effects of failed prophecy, whose work is tainted by subjectivity and bias. Although concerns have been raised in relation to the possible stimulating effect on the group by Festinger’s researchers, there is no evidence that this in fact occurred (Batson and Ventis 1982).
Stone (2000) argues that studies on failed prophecy post-Festinger indicate that active proselytization is an uncommon occurrence. In most of the case studies discussed in his book Expecting Armageddon: Essential readings in failed prophecy, proselytization did not occur (Hardyck and Braden 1962; Balch, Farnsworth and Wilkins 1983). Similarly, Dawson (1999) argues that Festinger’s approach is too narrow and that increased proselytization is only one way of reducing dissonance and is by no means the most common response. Bader (1999:120) states quite categorically, “Nevertheless, no case study of a failed prophecy, his current research included, has provided support for the cognitive dissonance hypothesis.”
I have been in the 4th Way for over a decade and in FoF for a year 2004-2005. I left because I was bored or simply couldn’t feel the uniqueness so bestowed upon REB’s gullible, yet willing, students. REB’s physical body is his impediment. He’s not been able, lo these years, to comprehend–incoporate?–the physical presence into 4th Way teachings.
How, I often wonder, could anyone remain in his Scripted Fantasy for so long?
Thank you for the wonderful Archive. I appreciate your surprises, and steady, sharing hand in this Blog. It is what it is, and that will be our history, supported by your efforts, and others.
I hope you will again be in my life, old friend.
Amanda
Former Student, Veronicapoe, Unoanimo, thank you for your thoughts regarding Class Action Lawsuit.
It does not seem easy to build…but if someone is willing and able to start it I will probably join it . Arthur is interested as well!
On the other hand there are plenty of crimes that could be brought to the attention of various authorities…
Sometimes I feel the desperation from some people here who beg to stop the insanity going on at Isis…
I too feel impatience, even though I have been removed from the direct influence of the fof and rb for a long time now.
I want a change! and hope all this writing here on this blog, the stories etc., will cause a change! The end of the fof under RB!
One scenario: organized revolution: the students rebel the King, file complaints , kings gets his long awaited modern “crucifixion” = a kick in the ass!
To Howard (and all others like you)—
Almost every statement you make (#14-115) shows that indeed you have not verified, for yourself, any of the points I made. That is fine, it has been obvious from your first post that the foundations of your worldview are imaginary, that is, based on faith (things unverifiable). To jabber on about what you believe the ‘major spiritual traditions’ to be expressing proves that you have not verified these subjects personally.
Howard, each of these traditions has a commonality. They postulate that one must have interpreters and interceders between you and God (or higher forces), in other words, a priest class (yes, even Buddhism has an authoritarian structure; note their devotion to lineage). Each of them demands faith. That is fine, but has nothing to do with the Fourth Way, which demands that you verify everything for yourself. You yourself have abandoned the Fourth Way and taken up the way of religion, which requires faith in the priest class. Good for you, but don’t pretend otherwise. In your Church of Robert Burton, the high priest has explicitly claimed that he is vital to your future spiritual welfare, and that any progress is due to his intercession. And it is noticeable that the self–appointed intermediaries do quite well for themselves in this lifetime, accumulating power, authority and often (and especially in the case of Burton) wealth. Why not, it’s a good gig, if you’re into that.
I have not verified that there are future lifetimes, so to put any energy at all into that idea, to alter my present life one jot to accommodate such a possibility, especially as some kind of spiritual ‘insurance policy’, as you and your co-religionists do, is completely wrong work for me, not to mention a waste of my time, the only capital I truly have. I studied the Fourth Way precisely because I could not make all the ‘leaps of faith’ required by the ordinary religions. You did not; from the beginning you must have mistaken the Fourth Way for some kind of new religion, because otherwise a simple comparison with your aims when you joined and the aims you have now would show you that you have deviated so much that you are now traveling in exactly the opposite direction. That’s fine too, but you have to be honest with yourself.
As for you being able to judge my state from the tone of my posts, it may interest you to know that more than three-quarters of the posts I have made so far are actually material that I wrote between seventeen and fourteen years ago. I post them because I believe they still make sense in the present context, and I think they might be useful to some who are at the same stage as I was then. That, by the way, includes the first post on this page. So much for your observations or your intuition.
You say that knowing or believing in future lifetimes doesn’t hinder you from living this life to the fullest. That may be true from a narrow perspective, but is sure as heck alters the tone of this life, right down to the bedrock. For example, you must deem yourself unworthy in some way in this life if you believe some theoretical perfection is to be found in the next lifetime (or the one after that, or whatever). That colors your whole present life, my friend. If you decide as a matter of faith that because Burton has said some achievement is impossible in this lifetime, you are affecting your whole present life, and have cut yourself off from a range of possibilities. And so on.
Burton is restricting your freedom in every direction; you may be happy with that, you may enjoy having your life managed, but the extra will you imagined might be possible (in a previous post) will remain out of reach, and also all the territory beyond the fence Burton has created for you. Above all, it places you in the peculiar situation where you simultaneously work very hard, yet are easily satisfied. You work in areas determined important by Burton, at things determined by Burton, for as long as Burton wants. At the same time, because whatever efforts you make are never enough in this lifetime (Burton says you’ll need the next lifetime or more to achieve your aims), you remain satisfied that the direction and amount of your efforts are enough to get you to the next lifetime, and even, and this is important, Howard, that these “efforts” are necessary at all.
Howard, I got off your brand of treadmill because I did see that under Burton’s tutelage my aims had changed, were becoming Burton’s aims, and thus were becoming the opposite of those I had when I joined. I have also come to see not only is it a case that I can choose another treadmill—they are all similar, Burton’s is just another model, though built crookedly, but that treadmills are not necessary. I don’t expect to convince you, how could I, you have not traveled my road. But I can point out that you are not in the same institution you thought you were when you joined, not going along the path the guide you hired promised you, and that maybe one day you’ll come to see that, and why it is important.
So, may good luck attend you in all your endeavors,
Ames
“Recent meeting quote – We can know Allah through Allah. We can know what’s other than Allah by the light of Allah”.
It’s interesting that the FOF seems to be dabbling in various spiritual traditions and conceptual frameworks. They seem to be trying to lure any and all religious believers into the fold. I guess Muslims are being courted now.
Rourke M. was a longtime member of the Fellowship of Friends when he passed away in 1993.
Rourke joined the group at a young age, traveled to Europe, studied art and literature, asked sincere questions, attended meetings, sat with friends at dinner, reflected on the concepts presented to him, and sought understanding. He immersed himself in the ideas of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. He listened intently. He contemplated the contradictions that he found within the Fellowship, struggled to make sense of what he was experiencing, and — like all of us — examined his own weaknesses and possibilities. He loved watching sports, enjoyed a good game of pool at the bar, and despised any type of pretense. He was fun-loving, passionate, and spoke his mind out loud with his closest friends.
Rourke grew up in the Bay Area, studied English at Cal-Berkeley, and used his writing skills to land a career in high tech. In 1983, in his late 20s, he kept a journal and stored it hard-copy on a computer printout. He left us 10 years later — on the eve of the Internet revolution, and a few years before the word “blog” would become a household word.
The following are a few excerpts from his journal:
…………………………………………………………………………..
July 7, 1983 from a letter to Miles B…
You seemed to suggest last Wednesday that people would gain by reconsidering why they are trying to “work on themselves” or are in the school, and if what they are doing is something they could do outside the school, and maybe better. That is a very honest question.
I’ve never had any real doubts that the school is a conscious teaching; it was self-evident almost from the outset and has continued to be so. At the same time, at different times and at varying degrees, I’ve felt disjointed from the school, and unable to know where I fit in or what I could contribute.
…………………………………………………………………………
The past 12 months have been fairly disappointing in that I simply have not been able to determine what I want, and I’ve always connected this with what I understand higher forces want of me. Before this time, I was able to see how working on personal weaknesses strengthened my connections with other students, the school, and higher forces, and was therefore encouraged to do so. But that understanding is no longer as prevalent, and lately I’ve wondered if references to higher forces are presumptuous, or impractical, or just wrong.
…………………………………………………………………………
It seems like conscience must be connected with personal aim, and I’ve wondered if it may not be that I am experiencing this aimlessness primarily because I have not done things which my conscience has suggested, and have therefore quieted or deadened it.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
August 5, 1983
My state improved during the walk. I reached the point where I realized I didn’t need to be negative. I began to remember the way I felt in Portland and Carmel, when I was more sure of myself. That gave me some comfort. Then I thought about a recent statement from Robert — that we would basically need to try to keep breathing for the next three years, that we wouldn’t experience fine states [possibly in reference to the predicted depression of 1984 – 1987]. Remembering that caused my state to drop. It made me think why I follow Robert. Obviously he knows more than me. I can see that from his angles in the recent journal and other things he has said. On the other hand, he says some things which I cannot follow without becoming identified and losing hope. This is a problem, because I feel like I am going against him if I disagree with him. Furthermore, I feel like I am doing something wrong if I exist for myself rather than for him.
I want more to exist for what I know is right, rather than for a man. But that possibility is not a guarantee. I want to serve higher forces, to be sure, but it cannot always be on the basis of what someone else has told me. This sounds childish as I write it, but it will become large in the coming years. Eventually I have to exist on my own understanding of right and wrong.
I can see the effect of not doing so. It is eating me up, literally. If I compare my state now with the one I experienced before I inner-considered Robert, it is obvious that it is much worse now. Interesting that I wrote inner-considering so lightly. That is exactly what it was.
Is it right to look up to someone? I am beginning to think not. I think a person should only look up to God and not to any other man. Certainly it is not incorrect to admire greatness, but how so? It is very harmful to believe someone simply because he says something.
What do higher forces want from me is the question. And what do I want from myself. What I want from myself is to not live any lies — of any kind. I appreciate everything Robert has done, but somehow I feel he wants something from me — like he wants me to like, respect, or adore him. Rather, my ‘I’s want me to place him above me, to limit myself somehow. They want to exist for him, rather than for myself.
It must return to this my friend. You are born to this planet. You live among people. You try your hardest to determine what is right. You cannot know what is true about another person. It is blatantly obvious that the school is a real school, blatantly. This much you can know.
But you must pose this question to yourself. Can you expect to evolve and hold on to inner-considering, or, in other words, can you evolve if you compromise yourself based on what you experience being the reality that other people experience. You must live in the reality that you feel is closest to reality, even if this means not being understood.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
August 11, 1983
Consider what it would be to be around someone who did not judge, was not constantly trying to prove that he was better than you.
But this is what occurs. And, to survive, one must either become adept at the same thing or learn how not to believe other people’s lies and remain true to oneself. Being true to oneself is the beginning of sanity.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
August 18, 1983
People are liars, constant liars. T. and R. lied through their teeth during the prospective student meeting, and the worst thing is that they had no conception that they lied. This is true with everyone.
If it happens that everyone continues to lie in this way, we are lost. Someone must tell the truth. Somehow I must regain my original will and clean things up. This is possible. But how to do it.
I can feel your anguish as I am sure you can feel mine regarding the seemingly unrestricted and endless practice of Robert Burton’s ‘activities’ along with the immunity that his followers grant him.
The question arises, is there a way to stop him? (I am a parent, too.) Are we done whining and ready to give this deep thought or better yet, take action?
I believe our collective efforts on this blog revealing Robert’s true nature will succeed in ‘poisoning the pool’ of future potential victims and restrict his access to using young, naïve, new followers as his sexual playthings or narcissistic objects and tools. This will in the very least, limit the damage he may cause to others. The blog is a brilliant first step as long as it can be kept up and running, so everyone please use the Paypal button and donate at least once, if not regularly. I have already.
IMO, a lawsuit would feasible and possible only after some sort of sustained public action was taken to display our power as a group. These techniques are not rocket science, and precedents for grassroots uprisings like this are well established. This posting is the best I can do to further that aim.
The next step will be to establish a group of dedicated individuals, preferably in Oregon House, to secretly meet and focus thought on taking public action, in other words, form a focus group. The thoughts and strategies of this group must NOT be posted on this blog, or the FOF will be take counter measures. Another means of communication must be established.
The focus group must be able to track and make public Robert’s movements. This surveillance will create more internal pressure on the FOF and contribute to a less than favorable atmosphere for the entrenched and financially dependent followers to remain in denial.
The focus group must then determine what the threshold number of members are that would effectively create a negative cash flow, and work to diminish the FOF’s membership to that number, causing Robert to use his accumulated personal wealth to keep the FOF afloat. If the property were foreclosed on, that would be excellent. Ex-members, if interested, could possibly form a non-profit foundation dedicated to healing the wounds inflicted on us all and make the Vineyard open to others damaged by cults as a retreat.
Once public action is taken, this will empower others to step forward. Remember that our strength is in our numbers. There are 11,000 of us and apparently only 1,500 left of them. That public action must be on an international level as well. If Robert’s movements abroad were restricted, that would further the aim of limiting the damage he causes.
Once our public protest and outrage becomes intense and consistent enough to hit mainstream, then we will attract the necessary means and support to take legal action.
And that will be the end of the Fellowship of Friends.
I don’t think fof even pretends to be a 4th way school anymore, doesn’t value personal verification….. and besides, awakening in some vague future ‘life’ is such an easy/comfortable way out of having to awaken now.
Is is clear the chances of some type of revolt are nil.
Whalerider “There are 11,000 of us and apparently only 1,500 left of them.” You are wrong of course. There are a few hundred upset former members (not all upset about the same thing, most not even posting, only a handful posting under their own name), there are in excess of 1,000 dedicated current students.
Between the 11,000 I am sure that the total dedication (paypal donations) did not add up to 1% of the money donated to the FOF since this blog took off.
Compare hundreds of events to one single greater Fellowship meeting organized by Ames.
Dear All,
Just an observation. All the daily cards from Robert are extracted from quotes of other eminent men. What Robert seem to do, is taking out a word and associate that word with a quote he invents. Is n’ t that associate thinking/ jack of diamonds?
For example today’s :
Thursday, July 5, 2007
‘Be’ restores order.
Daniel 9:25 – Restore and build Jerusalem until the Messiah comes.
I know some parts of us might say yes but however dirty the bath water may be, consider the following:
1) The Fellowship has some good points. It attracts interesting, intelligent people and provides a network of friends that covers many parts of the world, and provides a means for being together in a beautiful environment.
2) Many people that would never have had the means to travel have been able to see the world and stay in homes of friends along the way.
3) Many with little exposure to classical art have been educated in this area.
4) There are still some very healthy organizations within the Fellowship (e.g. The Walt Whitman Sailing Society).
6) The Fellowship provides access to nice gardens and social events that are on the whole uplifting.
7) The new (not 4th way) approach may not lead to consciousness but probably on the whole is no worse than fundamental religion except that it asks extreme dedication and presents itself as something else.
There are problems that are difficult or impossible to address as long as Robert is in charge:
1) Honest interchange between students and with former students is limited because of the paranoia that is generated due to Robert’s life style requirements.
2) The Fellowship is deceptive. It speaks of connections to higher forces that based on history in all probability do not exist. It speaks of methods that have limited effectiveness (no one is awakening). It undermines creativity and self confidence by crediting the lack of success to lack of effort in the individuals. It provides a false sense of superiority.
3) Robert’s lifestyle is corrupting, hurtful, and uses resources and efforts inappropriately. Over time it hurts most students.
4) The Fellowship encourages people to have similar tastes and lifestyles to Robert and discourages the development of individual creativity except within the boundaries of Robert’s interests.
5) Supporting Robert’s lifestyle is a huge financial burden and it keeps students from taking propper care of their own needs.
But destroying the Fellowship will:
1) Provide financial hardship for many that are invested in houses, businesses and land in the area.
2)Hurt some good people that are on salary, have dedicated their life to the Fellowship and don’t appear to have many alternatives. Many of these people are kind, simple, loving people and they would not thrive if the FOF were taken away.
So I would ask the question – Is there a way to make the following happen?
1) Take away Robert’s abuses and lifestyle. Take away his funding. The FOF is a non profit organization and the founder and teacher does not have more rights than the members. The Fellowship would truly thrive if Robert’s ways were not continually undermining its success.
2) Work to make the organization more honest with regard to what it offers and what can be expected. Broaden the Fellowship to allow other approaches to presence.
3) Allow open communication between current and former members. We have heard talk that this is happening and it seems to me that there is a great deal more openness in this area than even 6 months ago.
Just a thought – Maybe it makes sense to formally have 2 different types of students. The division already exists but is not formalized:
Group 1) Devotees that accept the FOF as religion, Robert as an angel and conduit of C influence, and agree upfront with appropriate and honest counseling to support him with all of his habits.
Group 2) Students that have full access to life, former students, pay minimal teaching payments (which do not support Robert in any way) and which seek a more “fourth way, in life” approach. These students would have access to the property and events but would not be encouraged to be involved with Robert. The teaching could incorporate Robert’s current viewpoint as one approach, not the approach.
Ideally Robert would have some minimal input into the activities of group 2 but he would not be over sold to them. He would not be able to solicit funds from Group 2. Neither group would be presented as superior but rather as alternative paths (Religious vs Psychological). Both groups would help to develop the property as they see fit.
0×0=0, Is often described as our original nature, our soul, our spirit.
I have been thinking a lot about Siddiq, nice how unanimo, describes the person and is sure that it is a “HE”, Passionate, has a family at Isis…?
From one angle, it does not matter, who it is.
For Siddiq, if you are troubled, if your consciences is not sitting well with you, you will start to get sleepless nights, not able to shake of these “I”s of what is happening and am I blind…Many emotions will go through you and I advise you, to just look at them completely acknowledge them see them 360 degrees. Behind those emotions are many “plays” and observations. All the answers are there and the emotions like denial, anger, fear, hurt, pain, sadness are all voices to lead you to your conscience and to the part of you that is not physical. Your true nature, your soul, your spirit…call it as you will 0X0=0. Wods are form thi world not from the spiritual world. Yes, if you are willing to view it all, it is a personal, spiritual journey. You and yourself, completely independent of any authority. Be aware, at this phase many people experience physical reactions, illnesses, temporarily. Do not worry, and face it completely. Part of your inner, private journey. Take some extra vitamins and some extra to boost up your immune system, like a massage. Be quiet for a while and do what you feel is good for your physical body. Spoil yourself. Do not get stuck in a strange illness or back pain ( holding too much toxins) or knee pain because it is hard to bend with the current of life. Or when you vomit the old toxins out do not worry, just watch. It is like dying, dying before your physical body dies… If you get worried see a doctor and get consoled. Clever doctors tell you to do more exercise and express your self….. (Building in the good old American disclaimer here).
Be careful not to go home with anti depressant or sleeping pills, and get hooked on to a new authority figure.
Watch your inner world and observe. What you see externally, see where it is internally…watch.
Then try to have no thoughts and be still. Your personal answers will come and will help you to live your life now, you, yourself has all teh answers.
Give up your wish of taking 80% in a conversation. Go around, asking fellow friends questions and help them to heal so you can get healed. Love yourself. If you can not love your self just start repeating to yourself 10-20 or more times, “I love myself”. Watch and go back to silence maybe 15 minutes or more a day, as you feel. It is confrontational, nothing to loose, do you? Maybe some air, some false personality. It will be very intense…this is a way to become more independent and free…..Hard for many of us who need a person to tell us that we are good and that everything is O.K. as long as…fill in the blanks. Go back to Travelers email and see in which phase you got stuck. Very enlightening to see where you got stuck. Bring light to this area and heal and become morefree. Become who you really are and enjoy your own company.
2)Hurt some good people that are on salary, have dedicated their life to the Fellowship and don’t appear to have many alternatives. Many of these people are kind, simple, loving people and they would not thrive if the FOF were taken away.
******************
These are higher men, men number four, and the product of a Fourth Way school run by a man number seven?
We’ve had this conversation before; was it in a previous life, or a page or two ago?
I don’t really believe that you don’t believe in an afterlife. You are just distancing yourself from FoF/REB.
If an afterlife exists, so must a pre-life, at least that’s my deduction. And if a pre-existing life can be placed into a vessel once, why not more than once? It makes perfect sense to me that it takes a soul more than one lifetime to “get it right”; that’s why I rejected the world religion of Christanity.
The Fourth Way rejects “blind faith”, not real faith, which is vital and necessary to any spiritual journey. How else does one follow an entity that one cannot see, hear, taste, touch or smell, without some form of faith?
The “Fourth Way” is a term Gurjieff invented. The Fellowship at this time has gone beyond Gurjieff to the sources of his system, esoteric knowledge from all the major traditions. This information is readily available to anyone in 2007 who has a computer and knows about google.
However, its taken hundreds of researchers and the teacher several years to compile and structure/classify this information, and most importantly to “Key it”. To my understanding it all points to an afterlife/ multiple lives.
Part of verifying is based on previous information; there are many things said in all the major traditions that can be verified. When one finds a source that agrees with one’s own verifications one tends to accept the things it says that one cannot fully verify. This is real faith, faith based on verifying.
Are you saying that every being must start from scratch in their search for truth, and disregard the existence of God, Paradise as a beginning basis until they fully verify it?
Adjusting one’s “only” life to the belief that there is an afterlife where one will be “held accountable” can only be a third force to lead a better, more civilized life, not hinder this life.
Cathie – 125
Part of this answer addresses your statment. We are not recruiting muslims, we are going back to many sources, including Islam, for the sake of instructing existing members.
You took enough time to contemplate the motivation of the FoF to use this quote and then respond to it in writing; I also wonder if you took some time to contemplate the meaning of the quote.
Grow up, why stay dependent…when you will die you will have to do it yourself. When you were born it was you alone….maybe some energy around you but no teacher, and no instructor and fellow students.
Share your live and help yourself and others to heal. Use your sense and see the hurt. Many people are hurting now and questioning and lost.
The people who can not leave the fellowship of friends.
Many people who have invested so much emotional.
Many people who have similar characteristics as Robert and therefore feel they can not judge Robert.
Many people who are co dependant
Many people who have addictions.
Many people who have fear.
Many people who belief blindly.
Many peope who have power and love there positions.
Many people who have no jobs
Many people who think they are important researchers and therefore indispensable.
Many people who are healing now their dream as been chattered
Just be present, listen instead of talking too much (sorry to be more exact not more then 50 % of the conversation.) Ask questions, listen, make your self invisible.
Please listen to what is now reality. Do not dictate your viewpoint on your surroundings…listen to the people on salary, call the ones who do not show up at the Apollo d’Oro ask them why and if there is anything you can do for them Visit the sick and the elderly ask if there is something you can do for them. Use your senses instead of being so self assured and invincible. A wise (ex) student said. If you think you are right an alarm bell needs to sound…
Good luck HC, you really need all the help you can get and you will say you have it. I do hope so for you….
(So far you have not responded to any of my post, no expectations here).
hc, siddiq, I’m glad you’re both posting here, and certainly defend your right to do so, as it also protects my own right to do so. But there you both go again… and again… and again… and again…
… admitting not a single problem, not a single fault, not a single ounce of dysfunction or destruction in the fof, and ignoring all of the arguments, issues, and facts placed before you. Do you feel anything? Do you think anything that’s new?
on 05 Jul 2007 at 6:50 am
115 Howard Carter
Dear Howard it is so painful to see you struggling so helplessly with your intellectual center.
Here is a typical example of what I kindly call “dumber than a rock”.
• there are many lifetimes”
“It is written about in every major spiritual tradition, by all the major sages/prophets of those traditions.”
You are not knowledgeable of every major spiritual tradition. Those that are I.E. who are accredited by the Religions or who have studied to the level of receiving a degree in comparative religions might disagree. Your premise is based on the unspoken assumption that since Robert Burton has said this it is correct. Many who participate on the blog would question this.
I have had experiences in which I have “seen” the reality of reoccurrence. In my experience this penetration into a higher dimension does not produce answers but questions. That is when there is right work of centers.
you write In relation to “C Influence” and the idea of a play.
This is a difficult concept to grasp but one that is also found in every major tradition; Fate, Destiny, Karma, recurrence, reincarnation, etc. All these are held in balance by the concept of “Free Will”. It is an enigma; we are not meant to understand these things in their entirety. We can intuit them.
Again you take Robert Burton teaching as true in an attempt to prove that Robert Burtons teaching is true. There is a word for this Howard the Duck. Fuckin’ stupid. “Dumber than a rock”. This is a difficult concept to grasp but the way and the work of the 4th way begin at a higher level than life. If your ability to reason and argue your position is so immature, so undeveloped it reflects the lack of development of the intellectual center in general so you are below the level of life. First it is not order vs. chaos, free will vs. predestination but there are three laws. Fate, accident and cause and effect.. There is no higher intelligence creating all activities on Earth rather there are Laws and even higher beings must conform to Law.
This is a difficult concept to grasp but even if there was a play Robert Burton would not know the script. This is an absolute fact that he has proven himself over and over. You Hoard the Duck ( kinda cute rhymes with Suck) are a classic case of ones imagination blinding them to reality. Don’t you get it.? Knock knock anybody home? This is logic dealing with a proven “fact” Robert has been wrong thus Robert can be wrong thus Robert will be wrong again. This is a fact. This leaves you with having to evaluate Robert’s bullshit pronouncements from the proven perspective of whether he is right . If you should ever desire to experience reality as Gurdjieff worked so hard to make available to you must learn to think and verify for yourself.
“• everyone who says, “I willingly join the damned” says that until the actual moment of joining”
This is verifiable on many levels in life; people say they’ll do something willingly until it’s time to do it and then they change their tune.”
what or who are the dammed? Those who having been given the gift of a magnetic center who trade the potential for eternal life for belief in a false prophet. This is a fact Duck boy. Robert’s prophecies were wrong this is without question the definition of a false prophet. Don’t you fit the definition of “the dammed” someone who agreed to the terms and conditions of the 4th way yet exchanged this for a second rate cult of the divine cocksucking goddess in a man’s body.
If there is any vestige of reality left in your little duck brain answer this. If cocksucking is so good for you why doesn’t Robert encourage this divine draining of the sacred cup by his students.
There have been real schools that taught the use of physical sex in spiritual development. The Fellowship of Friends is not one. Robert Burton is not only addicted to the physical act of sexually violating read Raping his students but the negative emotional energy and shame that accompanies such an activity. Robert knows little about healthy sex and this which should be at the core of a real teaching is proof of his failure to achieve the consciousness he claims.
Howard, regarding (#14-138), thank you for making yourself quite, quite clear. I was having this conversation with the illusion that we at least agreed on what the concept of verification is. I’m wrong, obviously.
So, you are in a new religion that espouses relative awakening (awakening within limits set up by your priest/intermediary) using an appropriate new tool, “partial verification”. Work with “partial verification” means than whenever you run out of steam, or into an inconvenient obstacle to your understanding, you can just drag out “faith” or “whatever Burton says” to fill in the gaps. What was confusing to me is that this is not verification—in my language.
I’ll try to answer one of your few personal questions to me, “Are you saying that every being must start from scratch in their search for truth, and disregard the existence of God, Paradise as a beginning basis until they fully verify it?”
In one word, yes.
I’ve tried to re-examine all my presumptions from scratch. This, for me, is particularly important when I try to analyze the mechanisms that mould us in our culture, and to any person serious about self–examination, examining religion in all its forms must be included. That’s a lot of work, to be sure, but I cheerfully undertook it when I was at a similar stage to you, but not so lazy. It happens that later, I found out that there was a short cut around this nearly impossible mountain. Burton didn’t try to hide this from me, because he simply didn’t know; he is not nearly the high being he claims he is, or that you believe/have faith in. But that is another story.
You might want to study the law of three a little more deeply. The concept in your last paragraph to me, “Adjusting one’s “only” life to the belief that there is an afterlife where one will be “held accountable” can only be a third force to lead a better, more civilized life, not hinder this life.”—leads directly to such civilizing influences as, “The Crusades”, “The Holy Inquisition”, “Let’s introduce democracy at the point of the gun”, and such. This is the wrong third force for internal work. The fact that you don’t understand this explains the content of many of your posts, and why you are stuck. The fact that Burton doesn’t understand this explains why he is not fit to teach, and why he is stuck.
HC #125 or so: “You took enough time to contemplate the motivation of the FoF to use this quote and then respond to it in writing; I also wonder if you took some time to contemplate the meaning of the quote.”
Yes.
The quote was:
“We can know Allah through Allah. We can know what’s other than Allah by the light of Allah.”
We = you, me and everybody else on the planet can
Know = apprehend, experience, have thoughts about (BIG can of worms here!)
Allah = The Absolute, God, that which goes by many names but is un-nameable. Ultimate Reality, Truth, etc.
through = by being one with Allah; by Allah’s grace? Meaning here is ambiguous, thus open to much wiseacring or as you would say, “keying.” Could be synonymous with “know” (see above). In which case, we have a meaningless circular statement:
“We can know Allah by knowing Allah” ?
Maybe so, maybe not.
OK, the next part is a little dicier:
We can know = (see above)
what’s other = what is not Allah. But how can there be anything that is NOT Allah?? Allah is all and everything, the absolute, Allah contains all. Therefore, the notion of “not Allah” is a product of dualistic mind activity.
by the light of Allah = Allah is light. Allah is also dark, since Allah transcends duality. Therefore Allah contains both light and dark. Light and dark are relative terms, dependent on human perceptual mechanisms.
In summary, the quote appears to assert that the human mind can “know” Ultimate Reality. This is a matter of belief.
Beliefs and mind activity are not awakening.
Reminds me of the Sufi story about Mullah Nasrudin looking for his keys under the lamp post.
Don’t keep looking there just because the place is conveniently lit. The keys you are looking for are elsewhere.
Cathie (#14-136), you are leaving all sorts of clues in plain sight…
Sure, Howard is looking for the keys under the lamp post, but he’s too busy to notice that behind him, the sunrise has already lit the whole street!
Random thoughts: I have verified very little. I kinda hope there is nothing to “recurrence” I dont want to go through all this again.
I think I read where some philosophers like Socrates or maybe somebody following believed or verified for themselves “life before life”. And then, maybe I’m thinking of Marcus Aurelius.
And, I think I read where Ouspensky got the idea of “recurrence” from Nietzsche.
Anyway, back to real life. WhaleRider I have two questions for you. What is Schwartz?
And, I went to that link provided by Laura #81. Robert Burton at the place I found him was akin to a empty closet in the basement. But, I noticed that a lot of non-Indian gurus have taken on an Indian name. Is there an explanation?
Finally, and I’m speaking without permission for Vera-Mente.
In the Bible and I really dont remember page, number or context. But, a vineyard Overlord was paying his field hands.
The first were handsomely paid (those that were in the FOF for a good while) then as they reached the end Arthur and Vera-Mente were paid as much. Of course, there was a dispute.
Arthur and Vera-Mente claimed that the FOF vineyard belong to all the field hands as equals.
Graduates 137 – “These are higher men, men number four, and the product of a Fourth Way school run by a man number seven?
I guess your point is that if the above were true, these people would easily be able to take care of themselves and we need not worry about them. But since it is likely not true, there are still those that are left in a bad situation.
Perhaps I both over and under estimate some of these people. Many are, I am sure quite capable. But there are those that have dedicated their whole life to the FOF and they are older now and not really prepared to be successful outside of the Fellowship. Probably they could be successful but they do not know that.
Anyway, the point is that some will be hurt if the FOF dissolves and we may want to consider them. Not that it is our problem but there are readers that have a stake in what happens.
“I appreciate your postings. I like how you are keeping your line consistently and “in the kings”. I would sleep better if you were right and not the “rest of the blog”. All these “negative people”… But any time I think that for 38 years (and right now and will continue) RB is screwing the guys, my friends, damaging their essences, causing this never ending craze, FEAR. How he confuses them by lying to them, manipulating them, uses them and throws away – I can’t sleep anymore. I have a child and I don’t want anything bad to happen to him. I don’t want him to know about what is going on in this organization, were his mom belongs. I can hear the question of the child: “Why is Robert having sex with all these men?”
So, WHY? They don’t want it. They hate it. But they do it. Tonight is someone’s “visit time” after the dinner. And tomorrow. Can anyone, anything STOP THIS CRIME???”
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Yes, its odd that there are people on this blog who ‘appreciate’ postings of those who support Robert Burton; at the end of their postings of said “appreciation” ask ~ “Can anyone, anything STOP THIS CRIME???”
Well, ‘confused’, you can start by not stroking and picking the fleas off the devil’s belly.
Get thee self to your District Attorney’s Office.
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Hello ~ 111 More history needed?
You asked ~
“Can somebody inform us what happened with M.R, (who payed Rabia) and a performance for Robert with girls like A, S,R ?
Thanks for you time and energy”
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Call her up. She’s on Page 55 of the 2007 AT & T phone book in this area or get on the Greater Fellowship’s website and ask around. Or call 411 and ask for a Mari R on Concord Trail in Oregon House, California.
She’s doing fine BTW… outside of being freaked concerning the break-ins near her house… Yet, what do you expect when you live one mile from the Methamphetamine capital of California (?)
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Hello ~ 123 vera.mente
You wrote ~
“Former Student, Veronicapoe, Unoanimo, thank you for your thoughts regarding Class Action Lawsuit.
It does not seem easy to build…but if someone is willing and able to start it I will probably join it . Arthur is interested as well!
On the other hand there are plenty of crimes that could be brought to the attention of various authorities…
Sometimes I feel the desperation from some people here who beg to stop the insanity going on at Isis…
I too feel impatience, even though I have been removed from the direct influence of the fof and rb for a long time now.
I want a change! and hope all this writing here on this blog, the stories etc., will cause a change! The end of the fof under RB!”
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Hello vera.mente ~
The key denying force is to be found in your very words “it seems”… This is an illusion; remember, every millimeter of struggle and tension sensed, in starting this process, is your own ‘baptismal in the waters of your being’…
You were breathing artificial embryonic fluids in the Fellowship of Friends… Now, get past “seems” and get going; forget about ‘difficult’, think ‘birth’, birth is difficult, though that’s not really what it’s about, is it?
Love your pressure and tension, its your birth!
No, it won’t be easy to bring the Fellowship of Friends into objective perspective, yet, what is? You are not alone, there are many who will join you; as Whalerider suggested, you need to allocate duties, ‘parts’ of the one body to many different people, video conferencing will also assist and a multi-national law suit may also be necessary, since, after all, many other countries and embassies are involved in these procurement of visas, religious and work papers, etc, for a phony ‘church’.
To me, its not really on the scale of ‘grass roots’, the grass roots thing has already established its ‘lawn’ in previous law suits, although, Whalerider is right nonetheless, that getting the local community involved, if it’s just letter writing to the Governor, a petition, both, that will get things rolling; if this was a new complaint-thing it would be very difficult to establish ‘a means’,
though the ‘house of cards’ has already been built, 37 years ago, multiple law suits, paid off and hidden away abuses and situations, dropped cases, a long history of buffered objective justice for the sake of subjective self calming;
and the card-house is considerably large and unsteady;
there is so much ‘garbage’ piled behind the food refrigerators belonging to Isis that I sense that one little yellow canary alighting on top will pull it down…
Do you have the will to not only follow your heart and gut, but also say “yes, that’s my heart” in case a policeman charges you both with jay walking?
The only tough part will be going up against the mirror image within yourself pointing to the issues at hand; this will be a great spiritual exercise for many, because the pressure and denying force felt in situations like this effort to be made, desired by you and so many others, is that of your own pain bodies struggling to stay in the struggling-self si-do habit world, where unfinished things seem more immortal than finished,
where unfinished feelings and gut sensations seem more supportive for tomorrow;
one of the greatest reasons people don’t like to
go through the ‘court thing’ is not the money, you can borrow money to make money and some lawyers do not charge unless they win, so,
all in all, the reason is that, in court the pain body must (though many buffer this) face the objectivity of its ‘little world’ put into perspective with the bigger world of ‘pain bodies’ where its identification is erased and placed into a category of personal responsibility to society (king of hearts) and the world (hints of higher emotional)…
It’s tough because the painbody needs the ongoing drama to continue, hence the si-do need: going to court, taking all this silliness all the way will change your inner world, no doubt, it must, since you’re still on the Path, yes?
Prison & Execution is the Temple of Si-do for the painbody.
Real desires are our teachers; so much of Robert Burton’s idea of C-Influence has been given to him by default, osmosis from common sense religious piety;
I met C-Influence when I was 8 or 9 years old and never for one minute felt them leave or wiseacred that they had abandoned me; sure there’s been middle fingers held towards the heavens, though, so what, sometimes I see cloud shapes giving it back to me.
So, get out there and love the pressure, smile and give birth to Buddha.
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Hello ~ 130 Rhino Neal
You wrote ~
“Unoanimo, on a different topic, can you tell us why you remain in the FoF? Your postings indicate you’re not very impressed by it. thanks, RN”
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Whose us, you and HC? Lol.
Another cigarette lighter in the dark?
The only person in this blog who has made this claim (that I am a member of the FoF or ever was) is HC, who, as Ames stated, could just be an intellectual in Berkeley writing and pushing buttons or an ex student who is getting kicks on Route 666.
Rhino, go back and re-read what I wrote to Whalerider concerning this ‘wonder’ of yours; he had it too and ‘did the right thing’ and seemed to have found the appropriate higher emotional answer to this question for himself, perhaps the same will occur for you, my friend…
I have been observing the phenomenon of the Fellowship of Friends for a very, very long time; not one student knows anything concerning my past (or for that matter, my present, this includes Grand poo-ra HC)…
It’s the way it must be, considering the nature of the triad, here, elsewhere, and will remain so, even after my anonymous-ness is revealed by me;
there’s a larger picture at play here than just the Fellowship of Friends, it’s about supporting certain standards, while simultaneously observing those who are walking backwards, assisting in jump starting channels of objective, conscious common sense and supporting a certain kind of becoming.
This has been one of my (and many on this blog site) tasks, one that has been flowing through me before my teens; so I am pretty at home with all this stuff and the Fellowship of Friends is only the tip of the iceberg that sunk the titanic, a very little bathtub of a ship in the bigger scheme of ‘things’.
So, go deeper, and if you believe one phrase or sentence that HC writes, I mean ‘really’, then certainly, you’ve got no real reason or place to put an answer from me to begin with;
I trust you’ll figure, as Whalerider did, that our hearts are connected in ways that the brain just can’t fathom, nor can the 10 of diamonds wiseacre itself beyond its own little world selfishness (seeming like Higher Intellectual), no way,
Higher Intellectual has no resemblance whatsoever to the 10 of diamonds, Ouspensky found this out the hard way, yet, after all, the real fourth way is difficult (though not the king of clubs difficult Robert Burton self calms himself from), for it is based on this lifetime and this one only, to the hilt, with absolutely no excuses,
the theory of lifetimes is a ‘pretty boys’ plaything, it is another tool of self calming and from a school of relative awakening, which, at best creates magnetic centers, which, even if essence is damaged, may result is something remaining after death.
Yet, its not the magnetic center by default, which is the issue here, its the psychic damage and treatment of the lot of time on this planet and our relationship to these impressions as they unfold, i.e., what they do with us automatically and what we do with them consciously;
yes, we have will and can move within the chess pieces, no matter the hand of god, god cannot move me as I can, otherwise there would be no reason to be down here…
I like to sense that I am more than a Duracell battery on some god’s shoulder.
If you see a pyramid in the distance, it may just be your own horn, so be careful what you assume from the assuming.
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Dear ~ 135 Old Fish In The Sea
You wrote ~
“Do we really want to destroy the FOF?….”
Just for scale and relativity I am going to use a little artistic license here and tie-off some loose ends I sense you’ve left for us to deal with in your equation of what could be left, (calling a ’slice’ a whole pizza?) ~
What you wrote, I will put in ” ” marks…
“I know some parts of us might say yes but however dirty the bath water may be, consider the following:”
“1) The Fellowship has some good points. It attracts interesting, intelligent people and provides a network of friends that covers many parts of the world, and provides a means for being together in a beautiful environment”,
which supports spiritual crime, damages essence, teaches methods of self calming, prolongs hierarchal structured psychosis and religious piety that contradicts the entire premise of the fourth way. Joining a ‘regular church’ with ‘normal people’ and reading B-influence books simultaneously will produce similar, if not, healthier essences and clearer ‘baby water’.
“2) Many people that would never have had the means to travel have been able to see the world and stay in homes of friends along the way.”
Nor would they have had the chance to be led to Isis for the exploitation of their wallets and what’s beneath their wallet’s pocket and sent back to where they came from, if they wish this exploitation be otherwise, other than against their conscience and self worth hearts; nor would they have been able to spend months in foreign jails for having had fake passports made by the request of The Teacher so to insure that his ‘fresh meat’ did not spoil, waiting in line at the consulate’s will and discretion.
“3) Many with little exposure to classical art have been educated in this area.”
Nor have they been proportionately educated in the area of acquiring million dollar paintings (the largest one in the Galleria to the left) that have been proven by the Italian government to have been illegally sold and smuggled out of the country to Oregon House, nor have they been educated in how to horde expensive artworks, jewelry, cars, clothes and apartments in Europe at the expense of said ‘contributors of such luxuries’ poverty, no health care, under the thumb of The Teacher, to be asked, against their will and oftentimes ‘real fairness’ to leave, at any time, for any silly reason, (like not accepting a sport coat gift), thanking them not, nor dividends in any investments, for anything they’ve done to support that which they themselves could never singularly have had, nor consciously asked of others prior to those ‘others’ welfare was first taken into consideration (although I must footnote here, that by now, there are a few who would do this sort of thing, particularly the hermaphrodites.)
“4) There are still some very healthy organizations within the Fellowship (e.g. The Walt Whitman Sailing Society).”
Who sail away from Isis as far as they can, whose experiences and near death experiences on the open sea has deepened their convictions that there might just be something to all this blog stuff, albeit not the mainland, its kinda floating in space similar to a boat at sea, with no shore in sight. There are also other ‘healthy organizations’ within the legal status ‘church’ called the Fellowship of Friends, who are conveniently ‘birthed’ at City Hall for the main goal of funneling monies back to Robert Burton and Friends by way of charitable donations and teaching payments to pay for more self calming and religious, conscience-less, psychosis piety.
“6) The Fellowship provides access to nice gardens and social events that are on the whole uplifting.”
They also provide access to your imaginary picture that this life is ‘just not the one Robert Burton wiseacres it has to be for you to awaken in’ thus creating a ‘dope garden’ to self-calm you from the news (and plenty of porn and wine justifications) and daily reminders that Robert Burton is the ‘only one in your life worth supporting, for you cannot do, you cannot awaken, C-Influence does not need your love, you can’t hold the Sequence long enough, you don’t remember yourself enough, you’re a walking subtle-replica of the enemy that he preaches against every Sunday’; yes, gardens, not unlike those of the high French Aristocrats had, prior to the French revolution. Not to mention the parallel ‘uplifting’ erection drugs used by Robert Burton and Company to maintain ‘astuteness’ beyond the pangs of conscience and self loathing; assisting in the wiseacre thought that ~ Hey, if you’ve got an erection, you must be in love, right, you must want it?
“7) The new (not 4th way) approach may not lead to consciousness but probably on the whole is no worse than fundamental religion except that it asks extreme dedication and presents itself as something else.”
Nor is it “no worse” than the rape and molestation charges now draining the catholic church of billions of dollars and followers. Nor is it “no worse” than a church that calls itself a church, yet, in all world-wide terms is a cult, not a traditional-church, where members can usurp the pastor if he proves to be corrupt and have him replaced by another, for their welfare, not his; unlike a cult, where the pastor usurps the ‘church goers’ and keeps the status of ‘church’ so that his of hers monies can be stretched to the furthest self calming limits without paying too much back to where it came from, i.e., tax exempt status, whose ‘loss’ of 8 or 9 members by the visit of certain ‘officials’ can often lead to the murder of 9 people and the mass suicide & murder of 900+ men, women, children and infants.
“There are problems that are difficult or impossible to address as long as Robert is in charge:
1) Honest interchange between students and with former students is limited because of the paranoia that is generated due to Robert’s life style requirements.
2) The Fellowship is deceptive. It speaks of connections to higher forces that based on history in all probability do not exist. It speaks of methods that have limited effectiveness (no one is awakening). It undermines creativity and self confidence by crediting the lack of success to lack of effort in the individuals. It provides a false sense of superiority.
3) Robert’s lifestyle is corrupting, hurtful, and uses resources and efforts inappropriately. Over time it hurts most students.
4) The Fellowship encourages people to have similar tastes and lifestyles to Robert and discourages the development of individual creativity except within the boundaries of Robert’s interests.
5) Supporting Robert’s lifestyle is a huge financial burden and it keeps students from taking propper care of their own needs.”
Take the elephant’s ivory and leave it dead, calling it still an elephant? Hummmm… would this kind of King of Hearts nit-picking really lead to spiritual vitality and change of level of being, or is it simply worshiping the crucification while postulating that such a heinous crime could never happen again; albeit, if it didn’t happen our painbodies wouldn’t have anything to worship?
“But destroying the Fellowship will:
1) Provide financial hardship for many that are invested in houses, businesses and land in the area.
2)Hurt some good people that are on salary, have dedicated their life to the Fellowship and don’t appear to have many alternatives. Many of these people are kind, simple, loving people and they would not thrive if the FOF were taken away.
So I would ask the question – Is there a way to make the following happen?
1) Take away Robert’s abuses and lifestyle. Take away his funding. The FOF is a non profit organization and the founder and teacher does not have more rights than the members. The Fellowship would truly thrive if Robert’s ways were not continually undermining its success.
2) Work to make the organization more honest with regard to what it offers and what can be expected. Broaden the Fellowship to allow other approaches to presence.
3) Allow open communication between current and former members. We have heard talk that this is happening and it seems to me that there is a great deal more openness in this area than even 6 months ago.
Just a thought – Maybe it makes sense to formally have 2 different types of students. The division already exists but is not formalized:
Group 1) Devotees that accept the FOF as religion, Robert as an angel and conduit of C influence, and agree upfront with appropriate and honest counseling to support him with all of his habits.
Group 2) Students that have full access to life, former students, pay minimal teaching payments (which do not support Robert in any way) and which seek a more “fourth way, in life” approach. These students would have access to the property and events but would not be encouraged to be involved with Robert. The teaching could incorporate Robert’s current viewpoint as one approach, not the approach.
Ideally Robert would have some minimal input into the activities of group 2 but he would not be over sold to them. He would not be able to solicit funds from Group 2. Neither group would be presented as superior but rather as alternative paths (Religious vs Psychological). Both groups would help to develop the property as they see fit.”
Ideally?
My friend, you’re fooling around with a triad not unlike America’s model of Democracy and the Roman Empire.
Yes, there’s such a thing as a cover-crop and tiling it under for the real crop, yet, this will not happen in Oregon House; the spiritual cancer at Isis is too deep and those who have unknowingly fed it their blood will be paid first; after this first ‘reconciling act’ nothing will be left and students will continue as they will anyway once any teacher’s role ends, they will have to roll with the punches from the Absolute, all those before us did, we are not privileged for knowing what we know from this blog, actually, we, who have truly digested this material here, will have to pay for it dearly, by slowly not being it, not becoming what it warns of.
I am deeply touched by your wish to save the ‘good parts’, all your ideas and attempts to recycle and transform, though, this is not the direction Robert Burton has initiated: the Fellowship of Friends started with a lie and will end with its lie, no more, no less; although this does not rule out the possibility of a ‘family of friends’, the Greater Fellowship seems headed in that direction.
An entity as Robert Burton would never settle for second best, a lateral position; he does not tell the truth because the whole ‘form’ is a lie; you cannot pull the foundation out from underneath a house and save the plumbing…
Such an ‘order of things’ would undoubtedly prove that Robert Burton is a liar, a fake and that the Fellowship of Friends has always been for him a means of self calming and earthly identification gymnastics… Do you really believe he would ‘fuss up’ to all that?
As always; the Fellowship of Friends motto “Silence is Golden”, will be his style, he’ll relocate or stay here and relocate the form of the school, seeming this and that…
Saturns are experts at silence and ulterior motives.
More games, no one truly on the path has time for…
curiosity certainly does kill the cat, for investment into another lifetime is the ultimate ‘promise of cat food’ while the real cat, the now-cat, starves and convulses to death.
Thank you though, for your incredible desire to assist those who need your love; try to do small things for now, like emailing this blog’s address to others around the world and contacting the California Governor’s office; certainly your love can be applied to more probable segments of the one now, than a kind of ‘wish’ for the future:
remember, alongside those who wiseacre doomsday, there are those who also wiseacre the coming of heaven: neither will happen on earth, this is an internal ‘arrival’: if the earth ever does call itself a ‘heaven’ it will be by default, by proximity to its inhabitants having already built ‘heaven’ within…
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Hello ~ 136 Another Name
You wrote ~
“Dear Siddiq and others,
0×0=0, Is often described as our original nature, our soul, our spirit.
I have been thinking a lot about Siddiq, nice how unanimo, describes the person and is sure that it is a “HE”, Passionate, has a family at Isis…?
From one angle, it does not matter, who it is.”
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I know Siddiq and he knows me (sorta). So, well, that’s that.
Yes, there are those who would suffer, especially those who have grown old in the mis-directed “service” of the FoF. They have made choices that were perhaps foolish, but they were their choices, and they must deal with the consequences of their choices, just as you and I must. Many of them are living in an environment (art, music, gardens, events) that pleases them. They have been willing to ignore the deceit, the crime, the suffering of others in order to continue living in this environment.
Among other issues, for these “old hands” to continue as such with clearer consciences, FoF would need to become financially self supporting, i.e. not run on the donations of those who have been bringing in the money all these years. Not on the fake money-grubbing “events” of RB. Let Apollo Arts become self sufficient. Let Apollo Olive Oil, the orchard, the reduced vineyard, yes, the gardens, the stupid palm trees, the nurseries, let them all bring in sufficient money to pay the salaries and the retirement and the health insurance. Take all the money away from RB, from law suits, from legal insurance, from relocating a fountain 2 feet to the south or changing the color scheme of RB’s study. Bring in real management. It sure is no School as it is, so it might as well become efficient, no more excuse for “intentional friction”.
It is not going to happen.
And you know what? Even if we depose RB (which is very unlikely) – the corruption will still be there, because those who will have the power after he’s gone (his “inner circle”) have become equally corrupt themselves. Oh, they may not seek the same sexual gratification, they may not be quite so greedy, but their corruption will have it’s own outlet. And they may not have the charisma, so less money will be pulled in. But the rottenness at the root will kill the tree. They have traded their power, their green cards, their jobs, their place in the hierarchy – for their consciences and their sincerity. Will they suffer? You bet. Are there innocents in there, who really didn’t “know what was going on”? Umm, maybe. We had pretty big earplugs and blinders for a long time.
There but for fortune, go you and I – oh, yes, and we will suffer too, we may lose our property, some money at least. That’s the breaks, the payment we make for converting naivete to experience.
But, as for a lawsuit. The only ones who gain from lawsuits are lawyers. The ones who lose are those who go through all that anger, rage, self justification, revenge, feeling “had”, putting it all out there in public – it’s a truly ugly process – there might be more reasons than being paid off that the previous suers settled out of court.
Better to let it all collapse on it’s own weaknesses.
Put our loving energy towards all those Friends out there.
Another thought for those friends still “in”, who have pinned their lives and old age on the FoF, well, I would take them in, help them survive. Wouldn’t you?
So here’s a message to my friends who might be trapped – I have room, I love you, you are welcome to my help. You can find me on the Greater Fellowship website – send your request to Janna 14;104.
“But, as for a lawsuit. The only ones who gain from lawsuits are lawyers. The ones who lose are those who go through all that anger, rage, self justification, revenge, feeling “had”, putting it all out there in public – it’s a truly ugly process – there might be more reasons than being paid off that the previous suers settled out of court.”
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Tell Troy Buzbee that; he got nearly 1 million dollars ((after)) the lawyers were paid.
I truly do not believe that a “going through” has to be filled with anger, rage, self justification, revenge, feeling ‘had’:
I mean geez, you can get all that by rejoining the Fellowship of Friends, better yet, stay in: too you can get that by saying ‘no’ to the Grand Yes Goddess (oooo, a rap, I wanna, it’s brewing).
Comeon Cathie, get off the Formatory Emotional Choo Choo Train and live a little;
I took a certain ‘dealership’ to court as a young teenager: I lost, yet I won, though I didn’t get my money back, because a certain ’second party purchaser could not make it’, all the hoopla got them out of town and revealed to other possible ‘lollipops’; the class action lawsuit won’t have that kind of denying force, nor is it about money, its about those still in their (you know (yes I said it), it would be Rambo like), and particularly those to come, so to speak.
Yes, its July and its pretty easy to be skeptical and dismayed; yet, what if it were, say, November, rainy days ahead, nothing to do but to sue, sue, sue… Pretend its November, put on your mittens, ski jacket, woolly pants, socks and hat and get on the slope or would you rather have your conscience smokin post humorous Burton dope?
The anger can be replaced with separation and by carrying and taking a look from time to time at a few pictures of Lewis Carol little boys, who, if Troy Buzbee is any proof, will be attending prospective student meetings in 8-10 years, when some other narcissus brother is on the front cover of ‘Oregon House Pimp Daddy Froth Way Lover’.
What ’self justification’? It’s not about ‘the self’, at least the real self, its about the ‘little elf’, the naive ones coming and staying and those who (believe it or not) still don’t know. It’s about essence growing and well, yes, history; educating essence and putting up some objective milestones and payment markers.
“Revenge and feeling ‘had’” (?) ~ Wow, Cathie, you could wiseacre those emotions about anything that’s controversial on this planet, plastic cups for instance, I mean, plastic bags are already banned in San Francisco, the Terminator is our Governor and George Bush is president:
anyone who’s not doing the ‘Rilke thing’ and transforming all this hay fever ‘pollen’ into the invisible could be considered ‘had’, particularly at the end of one’s ‘play’, if you’re one of the those who ’sees it coming’, some do not even have the ‘time slot’ to feel those kind of depressions, the switch is simply clicked OFF, while they’re feeling good.
To me, all the emotions you speak of (in their extremes) just get essence H12 running into momma and daddy’s arms; you can do better than that.
These emotions occur every day and are automatically applied to even the difference in price of produce at Oregon House Grocery and Food For Less in Yuba City, your spouse, your naiveté, a bad movie based on a bogus reviewers spin, a shirt bought at an Isis auction that was $200 and cost (since they were bought in bulk) $25 each.
Actually, there’s not much room in the court house for the Queen of Heart’s, you just have to stick to the facts and there are plenty. Writing a ‘Bill of Particulars’ and presenting it to the judge is a great way to start.
The only reason Eve started running out of Eden is because Adam took the snake off her shoulders and put it on his and said “Catch me if you can”, she, running after him, whirling an arm load of apples near his head.
_________________________
P.S. And, no, Cathie, you are not a descendant of Robert Burton’s rib and do not owe him what he himself does not show back.
“”Let Apollo Arts become self sufficient. Let Apollo Olive Oil, the orchard, the reduced vineyard….”"
Hi Sharon and all,
Actually these are private enterprises. The olive oil and organic cherry orchards are very successful– I would guess because the products are *wonderful* and are smartly marketed. I think a lease is paid to the fof for the space to grow/make the products. (Has everyone tasted the olive oil? I am in awe. Finally, a good product from that landscape that has a taste that reflects the good parts.)
Current members are not dummies. Some of us (current and former) have never fit in completely, but that does not mean that we can’t find a niche. That is what California was invented for. (well, maybe the whole west coast…)
Guys, I think FOF will collapse all by itself and probably sooner than we think… Teacher will teach only if he gets cash. The way things are going there is less and less of cash coming in.
Please keep shedding light, keep exposing the lies, keep telling your stories. Truth doesn’t need to be defended it just needs to be seen. FOF is so corrupted and commercialized but doesn’t show this ugly side to new seekers. The teaching became so clearly absurd and insane so all we have to do is simply post it without adding anything. It speaks (screams) for itself!
I’ll continue to post the original stuff from FOF as it is – unaltered, and let it speak for itself. I encourage others to do the same. Let buyer beware. Hopefully those students who are still in doubt will make up their minds. Let us see the brainwashing, shameless money sqeezing, and purely delusional interpretations of various images being sold to students as “Sacred Teaching”. Let us see it for what it is and be honest with ourselves.
_________________________________________
Dear Friends,
The Video Distribution Octave is undergoing further refinement. Our Teacher underlines the importance for each of us to be as closely connected to this sacred Teaching as possible. He has listed as one of our highest priorities
the viewing of the Teaching Events on DVD.
The School is moving at lightening speed. C Influence continually reveals new knowledge. The level of Robert’s Teaching becomes ever more distilled and objective.Each student will now be able to go to propylaia and access the list of the Teaching videos. You will find the list of videos under the Link “From the Teacher”.
___________________________________
Dear Friends,
Robert has pointed out that the task of our school is to gather all the expressions of the system historically, and that we have now come to the earliest expressions of the system in prehistoric times, before Egypt. He requested that the following message with accompanying images and quotations be sent to the School:
Although the prehistoric school did not use written language to transmit their knowledge, we can understand their images with the help of the writings of other traditions. In particular, our understanding of the Egyptian School is now serving as a bridge to help us understand the Prehistoric Tradition, as pre-dynastic Egypt is essentially the end of the Prehistoric Tradition. Below are three examples of Prehistoric images with accompanying quotes that help explain their keys:
1) The first image is the The Head of a Woman with Cross-hatched Hair. It is from France, dated 25,000 BP (Before the Present). It is carved from mammoth ivory and is about 4 cm tall.
Hair is a key for the many ‘I’s, the ten thousand. Hair put into order represents the many ‘I’s, the passions, under control with the sequence (as opposed to chaos, imagination). This passage from Going Forth by Day refers to the steward coming out of imagination with Short Be.
The neatly arranged cross-hatched hair of the woman shows the order brought to the steward/ the nine of hearts with the sequence.
It shows a mammoth with a falling man, and to the left, a rhinoceros with excrement in six small dots passing from him.
What I detest is excretion and I will not eat it…I will not be satisfied with filth.
Coffin Texts
This passage from the Egyptian Coffin Texts (Late Old Kingdom to Middle Kingdom texts found on coffins) describes the steward who does not want to be in imagination; he is not satisfied having ‘I’s unrelated to promoting presence, here called filth and excrement.
This verse explains the image of the rhinoceros, keyed as the lower self, who is excreting the sequence. The lower self is in control of the sequence at this point and the steward is falling back, failing to act. It is a failed sequence mouthed too weakly, without heart, and it cannot engage presence with it.
3) The third image is a Flute, from France, dated 34,000 BP. It is made from vulture bone.
The vulture is known for its ability to fly at high altitudes for long periods of time, and it became a symbol of Long BE in the Egyptian School. Tutankhamun had a cobra head and a vulture head on his golden mask, Short Be and Long BE.
The flute made of vulture bone has four holes—after Long BE, sustain the four wordless breaths.
Robert called it the Magic Flute.
Another exampe of “fishing” for sacred teaching, or Sacred Teaching in the making.
Let’s collect all your random I’s, then have Robert and Asaf regurgitate them, then stage a meeting and make sure it’s filmed and then printed as “Thoughts from the Teacher”- and here’s our new “sacred teaching” for sale!
How can anyone in their sane mind take this “teaching” seriously…
“Dear Friends,
We are attempting to understand the esoteric meaning of the Zodiac. Our aim is to understand how it relates to the sequence of six work ‘I’s-the essence of the system-rather than life’s psychological interpretations of the signs.
A few initial observations: There are twelve signs in the zodiac, roughly corresponding to the twelve months in a year. This suggests that they occur in time, in sequence, where one follows another. At this point, however, we do not know why twelve and not six. Another instance we see a sequence of twelve is in the Egyptian teaching, in the twelve hours of the Amduat, where the night bark travels through the twelve hours of the night before emerging into the daylight hours. Note that there are also twelve hours of daylight, suggesting long BE lasts as long as the steps it took to reach it-although at this point we are only presuming this and are not certain whether or not this is the right interpretation.
In a school, it is enough that one student make a connection for the whole to benefit, as has been the case several times since we began working with the keys. We would therefore like to invite any suggestions and insights you have that can shed more light into the esoteric meaning of the Zodiac. Keep in mind that ultimately the answers are simple and obvious once revealed.
If you have any relevant thoughts on this subject, please send them to xxx…
In the first part of your post I thought we were experiencing history in the making; a former member addressing a current member without being condescending, obscene, insulting, mocking, attacking one’s mental health, preaching, or any number of lapses in decorum. But even with the faltering conclusion your post arrives at it still makes my top ten for civility coming from your camp to mine.
Former members like to use the term “group think” (FoF think); well there is such a thing as blog think. It is characterized, amoung other things, by the unrelenting notion that if the FoF did not work for them (former students) it does not work for anyone. If they ultimately did not find it to be real it is not real. And that the only thing seperating former members from current members is that with current members the “fog of devotion” has not lifted yet, and once it does they too will add the prefix “former” to their FoF designation.
What can be the basis for that thinking? Could it be a feature that starts with the letter V? Or just an extreme desire to get back at the person/organization that “damned” them with their leaving ?
Here is the most dubious aspect of blog think. Former students are telling people like myself, Siddiq and GOlb (the only three supporters who have posted in the last month or so) what WE are experiencing. No matter what we say regarding the school working for us they counter with “you only think like this because you are flawed, lying or lagging behind. I didn’t experience this when I was there so you can’t have either.”
This is very different from what Siddiq writes or what I write (GOlb can at times get a little more “in your face,”
God bless him).
We basically are saying that the school works for us, and often we try our best to articulate why it works in a reasonable, even toned manner. We do not insult or mock those we respond to. We are relating our experiences, not trying to dictate to former students what they ought to be experiencing. There is a very big difference in the two approaches.
Here is my question to you: can you, as a former member, live with the possibility that “maybe I missed something about the experience, maybe an attitude prevented me from seeing another side of everything?”
If one really valued the truth above all else one could live with and embrace many possibilities, even things one doesn’t want to be true. I exist with the possibility of living without the school. So far it has not come to pass.
Do you really think that the FoF could exist for 38 years and be thriving as I write if it were only what its harshest critics say it is? It’s the only organization I know of that lays claim to be a conscious school of awakening in the tradition of all the ancient schools (it’s the only organization to name those other schools) and people here say it’s the very opposite of this, an evil cult.
Can it survive this long and thrive being so purely everything it claims not to be and nothing it claims to be? If this is so it’s “lottery” odds or better for it to have survived this long. If it’s true that “God can forgive anything but hypocrisy” how could a higher power allow its name to be taken in vain for so long and to hurt so many?
Can an auto shop remain in business for long if it does not fix the problem of the cars put in its care, and the owners even find new problems when they pick up the car?
One of the biggest obstacles to presence is that we simply do not remember to do it; hours go by without even having the ‘I’ to engage presence. On the other hand being present is what Robert relentlessly speaks about, day in and day out, by the minute.
Are we to seriously believe it’s possible for him to always remember to speak about being present but not to be actually doing it? What’s being said on this blog by former students is impressive for its sheer unlikelyhood.
Regarding the last part of your post; it fails because you then start telling me what my reality is, what I’M experiencing. This is where you lose all credibility.
I am not afraid in the sense you allude to. I am afraid of a life spent in the second state; that is why I stay in the FoF. That is why I do feel free. There are no fetters on me so there are none to remove. I don’t get depressed. I don’t suffer from insomnia. “A clear conscience does not fear midnight”.
The only limits placed on my ability to be present are those that come from within. The school does not confine me in any manner. It frees me in every manner. It works for me; why should I leave it. I want more of it. I want it to be more of what it is and I want myself to be able to experience it more deeply.
Please be informed that despite the years of your tireless dedication to the Fellowship of Friends you are and have been supporting a corrupt and licentious organization with your money, time, and labor. As with everyone else on the planet, there are consequences to your actions for which as adults you are responsible. Pleading ignorance is not a defense, it is simply a buffer. Please consider that if the Fellowship of Friends were to become financially stressed or insolvent, you may lose your employment, if you are employed by this organization. Please be advised that it may be in your interest to secure other means of employment as soon as possible and to plan for your financial independence. If you are in this country on a religious visa, it may also be in your interest to prepare for the eventuality that your visa be revoked.
To those followers in legitimate business for themselves on the property owned bt the FOF, please be advised that there may be unforeseen financial consequences for doing business with the FOF that as a business owner you may wish to consider and plan for.
To Those Willing to Dedicate Their Time and Effort:
Here’s what I propose as a possible course of action:
Commit time and energy to showing up at the perspective ‘student’ meetings in your home town and hand-out flyers with this blog address and pertinent information to provide a balance to what is presented in the meetings so the public can make a more informed choice whether or not to join. This effort would need to be both a national and an international effort to be effective, since apparently most of the new ‘membership’ is coming from abroad.
If the vineyard in still owned and operated by the FOF, the stores that sell the wine as well as the buyers of that wine can be informed of its origin and the circumstances of its production to be able to make a more informed choice about whether or not to buy those products.
All suppliers of material goods, foodstuffs, or any other support items, including financial instruments such as loans or credit lines for the FOF can be informed of the nature of this organization and its practices. This will allow them to make informed choices as to whether they wish to continue doing business with the FOF.
As Ben Franklin said, “Small strokes fell great oaks.”
Let your conscience be your guide. That’s what ‘C’-influence is really all about.
Howard, in #14-163, you say:
“Here is the most dubious aspect of blog think. Former students are telling people like myself, Siddiq and GOlb (the only three supporters who have posted in the last month or so) what WE are experiencing.”
And in #14-138 you told me, “I don’t really believe that you don’t believe in an afterlife. You are just distancing yourself from FoF/REB”.
“We are attempting to understand the esoteric meaning of the ten fingers. Our aim is to understand how they relate to the sequence of six work I’s the essence of the system rather than life’s anatomical interpretations.
Counting from left to right there are ten, five on each hand roughly corresponding to the ten toes. Each follows the other in a sequence suggesting they exist in time. At this point however we do not understand why ten and not six.
We would therefore like to invite any suggestions and insights you have that can shed more light into the esoteric meaning of the ten fingers. Keep in mind that ultimately the answers are simple and obvious once revealed.
If you have any relevant thoughts on this subject, please send them to xxx…
Thank you, Asaf.”
Hello Howard, thank you for articulating so well the frequent hypocrisy of this Blog-think.
Thanks for being here.
As you write, sometimes hours go by without a single thought of presence…what many bloggers do not grasp is that because of this we are all so much more alike (out in the fog) than our lower self likes to accept. The only difference is which direction do we want to go?
‘It’s the only organisation I know of that lays claim to be a concious school of awakening in the tradition of all the ancient schools.( it’s the only organisation to name those schools ) and people here say it’s the very opposite of this,an evil cult.’
The very notion of the ‘tradition of ancient schools’ is a product of Burton and the FOF so no wonder they would be the ‘only organisation to name those schools’
The reason you are here HC presenting the same flawed ludicrous ideas over and over is for the same reason Peter I. tirelessly works on updating the FOF entry on wikipedia, even to the extent of knowingly lying through his teeth.( his revisionist interpretation of the the failed prophecys of Burton ) .The FOF is starting to unravel before your eyes,people are leaving in large numbers and you are desperate to try and push the old phony ‘King of Hearts’ FOF spiel through all of this in the hope that some gullible and needy person will fall for it and join.( very few are joining anymore).After all.it worked in past and it’s the only song you can sing.
Whalerider–”To Those Willing to Dedicate Their Time and Effort”–there are no such people Whalerider, is that not obvious?
This blog is made up of people who either woke up some 10-20-30 years to find out about a little sex or whose favorite weapon is the keyboard–give me a break!
Mole, once again you are wrong, just check the membership numbers before posting your lies. Membership is around 2 thousand, just as it was 6 months ago.
“All suppliers of material goods, foodstuffs, or any other support items, including financial instruments such as loans or credit lines for the FOF can be informed of the nature of this organization and its practices. This will allow them to make informed choices as to whether they wish to continue doing business with the FOF.”
So deranged cult members should not be allowed to eat, drink and have a credit card?
Siddiq, – Great example of FOF think. Defend madness at all costs and belittle anyone who sees it for what it is.
By the way you sound increasingly desperate.
Siddiq, in #14-132 you say:
“…there are in excess of 1,000 dedicated current students”
and in #14-170 you say, “Membership is around 2 thousand…”
Now I know that both can be true, but the implication of the first quote is that the numbers are rather closer to 1,000 than 2,000, wouldn’t you agree? No wonder we are confused!
Just teasing!
Regards to you, I appreciate your doggedness for its own sake, and Howard’s too. Tell them you deserve a raise!
Ames
P.S. Are you sure (I mean really ’sure’) s/he’s not a ‘former student’ providing a foil for us?
(Still teasing!)
Howie,
Your organisation is not thriving, it is in the first throes of a lingering but inevitable demise. Neither do you or Siddiq any longer represent the voice of the majority of its members. You are merely the voice of the tumor which will kill it.
“Could a higher power allow its name to be taken in vain for so long and to hurt so many?”
Finally and obviously the answer is, NO!
Siddiq,
I got it at last! Sorry, I’m slow, its past my bedtime. Maybe you meant that there are in excess of 1,000 dedicated students out of a total of 2,000. That is, nearly a thousand are not dedicated, maybe wavering, maybe ready to move on July 15th? Is that what you meant?
(still teasing!)
Good night, I hope you rest well and arise tomorrow refreshed and ready for the fray!
Ames
And tell the Ouspensky office I mean it about the raise!
Although you may not be conscious of your utter arrogance in your posts, it is always present. You point to Golb as someone who is in one’s face, but you have consistently met and exceeded his attitude.
You’ve suddenly shifted into a “poor us” attitude that is highly unlike any of your previous posts.
You are participating on a discussion board in which former members are talking about their true experience with the Fellowship of Friends and its leader, Robert Burton. That is your choice.
If you wish to discuss your ideas with Fellowship members, it is probably a good idea to start a discussion board for them.
You will find compassion and attempts at understanding here because we’ve all been where you are, but you will not find any who agree that your school is a positive oasis.
It seems that suddenly and mysteriously that is your desire.
The responses you receive here are filled with good will. Mostly, the ex-members are polite and understanding, although I admit that some use expletives and sarcasm which is really not effective (me included). Still, your comments are so filled with logical lapses that it is very easy to desire to slap you silly with your own brand of communication.
In example, who knows if we are reincarnated. I hope so much that we are, although I question why I have that desire. It’s a very fun notion. Still, there is no possible way of knowing if that is true or not. That is one of the most fundamental human enigmas. We simply don’t know and wish we did.
No human being on earth, regardless of religious faith, knows, for sure, that this is an indisputable truth.
It is true that I want so much for that magical thinking to be true. I want it! I’d love to come back as…as…what? I’m not sure, but I like butterflies and jelly fish. But I’m a human being and no human being knows absolutely that they will arrive anew on this planet in a different form. (A flower? Well manicured socialite?)
Unfortunately, the only time I will happily be able to know that I am about to start life anew as a nascent being on this planet is when someone says to me after I’m dead, “You’re in luck. You did great last time. This time you’re going to be an octopus.” Or, perhaps, “Wow, you were in that great school and you left. You’re definitely going to suffer for that! You’re going with the other billions straight into a bilious hellfire. You had your chance, you wanton tart, and gave it up.”
Until then, I just need to explore endlessly in whatever form I’m given. Wanton tart and all.
“Here is the most dubious aspect of blog think. Former students are telling people like myself, Siddiq and GOlb (the only three supporters who have posted in the last month or so) what WE are experiencing.”
And in #14-138 you told me, “I don’t really believe that you don’t believe in an afterlife. You are just distancing yourself from FoF/REB”.
Notice anything?”
I didn’t say I don’t have opinions. How can anyone write a word without taking a stand of some sort? What I’m speaking about in 163 is a far cry from what you cite. I think you know that.
Uno – don’t blame Cathie – that’s me, Sharon.
__________________________
Yes, I caught that one Sharon; I had Cathie’s name in my coconut juice prior to reading your post, things got swished around; sorry for the mix up… The sheik canned my response to you I think because I mentioned where you live. How are you and the ‘big family’ doing?
As far as I can recall I didn’t blame you for anything; just attempting to be an old friend, anonymously, yet still a friend, particularly in July and August, these months will be particularly strong during 2007: this first week of July have already proven to be one coconut shy of Apocalypse Now.
Thanks for your answers Howard. You made a number of points and I cannot deal with them all tonight so I will chose two of the most important.
You said:
Here is my question to you: can you, as a former member, live with the possibility that “maybe I missed something about the experience, maybe an attitude prevented me from seeing another side of everything?
Howard my experience in the Fellowship was pretty good. I don’t think I missed a lot, but what do I know.
I do not and cannot know what you, Robert or others experience, or what I might have missed. I can only guess based on what I see. I have to weigh the evidence available to me, and what goes on inside you and others can only be determined from what I can observe about you, filtered by my own features and experience.
Could I have missed something? Yes, but I think I weighed the evidence available to me pretty carefully. Simply put, Robert’s values did not synchronize with mine. Was it an attitude that limited my vision? Perhaps. I like to think that it was not an attitude but the wind. The wind said it was time for me. The wind blew in new perceptions. I did not leave because I did not like the Fellowship but more to experience something new. It was time for a new world view, a whole new set of experiences and states – a world view, where I was no longer a follower. I wanted a world without walls.
I did not see myself as conscious, but after over 30 years I wanted to try to see myself in a whole new way. I had given and received what I could, and my life was running out. If I was going to perceive the world differently I needed to get started.
I was ready to gamble. I was ready to try trusting myself to find my own values. I felt that this was the only way to move forward. I was stuck and I was curious to see what I would come to value and I was not identified with any result in particular.
Once I reached this state I could not support Robert any more. I think my other posts and the one about the Baby in the bath water explain my feelings on that.
Could I have missed something? Of course. but I turned over every rock that I could for a long time. I did receive something but at some point I wanted something new. Would another 30 years have changed that. Who can know but I sincerely doubt it.
You said, “I am afraid of a life spent in the second state; that is why I stay in the FoF.”
This is exactly what I meant when I said you were afraid. I took a guess based on my own experience. This is exactly what every student fears. My experience so far indicates that this fear leads to a subtle identification which blocks higher centers. It also allows you to continue to support some pretty shady dealings.
Best wishes Howard,
We each have chosen our path and will pay in our own way. Maybe someday the wind will actually change for you and blow you out or perhaps it will blow me back in. Somehow I doubt either will occur but I meant what I said earlier – the fence is imaginary. In the moment, we all have to deal with the same things. But we each must go with our conscience or we will not move forward. Do not let fear, even fear of the 2nd state dictate your conscience. There is nothing to fear.
I turned to a page in Rumi’s book of poems the today, saying first, “What would you like to say to the Fellowship of Friends”… Honest Abe, cross my heart, this is the page I turned to… (the whole prose continues onto the next page for those wiseacres who are thinking that I might have chosen the one page of two that suits the blogs spirit best.)
From Rumi (pages 318-319, The Soul of Rumi)
To: The Fellowship of Friends
“The thief unties the turban as he runs, and rag pieces fall on the road. He stands holding
a single tatter. “You’ve cheated me.” “Yes, but at the same time I warned you of the fraud.”
This is how the world speaks to us. It delights in spring blossoms, even as they fall.
“Come tast me,” say the senses, and the next sentence is,
“Leave. This is nothing much.”
The young prince of the morning, the pride of everyone with his glistening body, fumbles along
at evening, laughed at, unable to remember his name. Smell the aroma of beautiful food, then
go to the latrine and sniff. “What happened to you?”
Your dung will answer,
“My beauty was a lure, a trick to get inside you.”
Every matter particle does the same
enchantment. Try to see the beginning and end at once. Would you willingly wear manacles
just because they’re made of gold? Admire the genius of an artist, but also watch what
happens to him or her in old age, how the expert craftsman’s craft diminshes. Listen
The double music of existence; Bu Masaylim’s false claims
to the song of the flower and the song of the thorn blending. “Buy this!”
“Keep away!” “I’m ready now!” “Beloved, we are gathered here today… ” If you can’t hear
this double music, it’s difficult to recognize what’s real.
With people you can look at
their teachers. Who do they follow? Each foal has a mare that feeds it. What nourishes
humans comes from higher. Donkeys drink from underneath. Magicians can be confusing, but
when Moses arrives and throws down the rod that becomes a dragon, how do the trick bowls
look then? When something that alive comes, illusory matters fade. They quit bragging!
A body’s death, even, is beautiful to those who see with the soul’s eye. Every genuine
form of money has a counterfeit counterpart. Bu Masaylim, who always added wrong
elements to any situation, said, “I am the guide of souls, beyond religion.” Reply
to such claims, “Don’t act like you know things to get money and power.” Follow a true
sheikh’s candle. The full moon shows the traveler where to go. When it’s night, take
a lantern, so you can tell a falcon from a crow. Crows sometimes learn to mimic the
language of falcons, as a human being can make the hoopoe’s call, but without Solomon’s
secret within the sound. Distinguish a natural cry from an artificial. Shameless people
memorize the words of gnostics and dervishes. This is the was every great civilization
falls apart, by ignoring the difference between sandalwood and pine. Discernment! Everyone has
discernment, but greed obscures the subtlety. Physical blindness brings God’s mercy.
Blindness from wanting, nothing. Christ’s crucifixion is one thing. The self-crucifixion of jealousy, something else. Fish, don’t keep staring at the hook. Remember where appetites
lead. Notice every set of eyes – the ox, the one-eyed man leading his donkey, the true
human being – …
______________________________
No one owns the favors of the gods, no one…
After turning to these pages, I am in awe, particularly in reference to the Sheik… utter wordlessness now, a deep thank you to Rumi for yet another lighning bolt within this storm.
#166
Ryan O’Poo
“We are attempting to understand the esoteric meaning of the ten fingers………….
At this point however we do not understand why ten and not six…………………
If you have any relevant thoughts on this subject, please send them to xxx…
Thank you, Asaf.”
To Howard Carter (#14-163)
Some points about your post. You may actually be quite fortunate; you are having some experiences out of the cocoon, and you are getting plenty of ‘photographs’ for free. If you don’t value them because they are free, press the PayPal button and make a donation! The ‘standard’ of decorum is only your standard, so try ‘separating’ from the attachment. Of course there is a commonality of experience of those who have left; to one degree or another, we have all ‘been there and done that’. And of course, you are completely correct, your religion may be right (whatever that means), down to the last particular.
So much depends on viewpoint, doesn’t it? I like your analogy of the autoshop, and you put it well. But—my viewpoint is precisely the opposite of yours; that the autoshop has been fronted by a slick salesman, that it has in fact not succeeded in making a single honest repair (“…but we’ll fix that in the next lifetime, meanwhile, park the car in the back lot permanently to make room for new marks”) and that customers, having left, rarely return for a tuneup. Now you are complaining because we have reported the shop to the Better Business Bureau, and are spreading the word? Because we are picketing the building and trying to warn potential customers that the mechanics aren’t qualified, that in fact the customers have to get down in the pit without an instruction manual and try to make repairs themselves in the dark?
I’m taking the liberty of speaking for the rest of your critics here. My guess is that the majority believe that your organization has existed for 38 years and ‘thrived’ because of the secrecy surrounding so many of its actions. Now more light is being shed on the dark parts, I doubt it will last another 38 years. But, we are a pitiful few, as Siddiq has noted, and arrayed against us are the mighty gods (hope you haven’t pissed off the original 44 by abandoning them!). It is really a David and Goliath situation, and we really can have no hope, if you and your leader are right. So cheer up, in another 38 years you’ll have been proven right, and we backsliders will all be sizzling nicely (is that the new paradigm, or is it still that we’ll be rocks on the moon?)
Howard, I do appreciate your efforts, I truly believe they have served us, and you, well, they have helped clarify the thinking of the readers on both ‘sides’ (whatever that means). You, too, should get a raise in pay.
So, thank you very much for playing your part so well!
Ames
“The very notion of the ‘tradition of ancient schools’ is a product of Burton and the FOF so no wonder they would be the ‘only organisation to name those schools”
Fool, you underestimate the power of the pen. Now it’s the keyboard, the prime weapon of choice.
“…give me a break!”
That’s exactly what we intend…to give you, HC, and the other ‘followers’ a break from your delusions of grandeur, your manacles of gold. Your organization and leader have harmed and swindled enough people. You have been warned. The writing is on the wall.
Rumi has spoken.
Why else you have been newly ‘directed’ to study him?
Two men, both seriously ill, occupied the same hospital room.
One man was allowed to sit up in his bed for an hour each afternoon to help drain the fluid from his lungs.
His bed was next to the room ‘ s only window.
The other man had to spend all his time flat on his back.
The men talked for hours on end.
They spoke of their wives and families, their homes, their jobs, their involvement in the military service, where they had been on vacation.
Every afternoon, when the man in the bed by the window could sit up, he would pass the time by describing to his roommate all the things he could see outside the window.
The man in the other bed began to live for those one hour periods where his world would be broadened and enlivened by all the activity and color of the world outside.
The window overlooked a park with a lovely lake.
Ducks and swans played on the water while children sailed their model boats. Young lovers walked arm in arm amidst flowers of every color and a fine view of the city skyline could be seen in the distance.
As the man by the window described all this in exquisite details, the man on the other side of the room would close his eyes and imagine this picturesque scene.
One warm afternoon, the man by the window described a parade passing by.
Although the other man could not hear the band – he could see it in his mind ‘ s eye as the gentleman by the window portrayed it with descriptive words.
Days, weeks and months passed.
One morning, the day nurse arrived to bring water for their baths only to find the lifeless body of the man by the window, who had died peacefully in his sleep.
She was saddened and called the hospital attendants to take the body away.
As soon as it seemed appropriate, the other man asked if he could be moved next to the window. The nurse was happy to make the switch, and after making sure he was comfortable, she left him alone.
Slowly, painfully, he propped himself up on one elbow to take his first look at the real world outside.
He strained to slowly turn to look out the window besides the bed.
It faced a blank wall.
The man asked the nurse what could have compelled his deceased roommate who had described such wonderful things outside this window.
The nurse responded that the man was blind and could not even see the wall.
She said, “Perhaps he just wanted to encourage you.”
Epilogue:
There is tremendous happiness in making others happy, despite our own situations.
Shared grief is half the sorrow, but happiness when shared, is doubled.
If you want to feel rich, just count all the things you have that money can ‘ t buy.
“Today is a gift, that is why it is called The Present.”
I know Howard Carter.
He has Vanity, Power and Fear features. Mars-Jovial.
He also has a great sense of humor and believes in magic. He sees Magic everywhere he goes. And if you don’t argue with him he will be your best friend (especially if you are a woman).
Sharon 154: “So here’s a message to my friends who might be trapped – I have room, I love you, you are welcome to my help. You can find me on the Greater Fellowship website – send your request to Janna 14;104.”
Excellent message. The Greater Fellowship website keeps growing. Anyone who leaves won’t lose contact with friends, in fact many from the past are now popping up. The worldwide network of connections is being reconstructed outside the FoF.
Regardsing the FoF’s demise: maybe yes, maybe no. For sure it’s very vulnerable right now – a small push could collapse the whole pack of cards. Personally, like Sharon, I wouldn’t want to be involved in a lawsuit, but it’s certainly possible that someone might feel strongly enough to initiate one. Perhaps more likely is financial collapse. FoF finances were always a mess, even in the best of times, because of RB’s insatiability.
Howie 162: Nice post. Though I disagree with you about almost everything, you do put a coherent case for those who choose a path like yours. One thing I do agree with you about is that the obnoxious attacks on your postings are childish and unnecessary.
Siddiq 167: “As you write, sometimes hours go by without a single thought of presence…what many bloggers do not grasp is that because of this we are all so much more alike (out in the fog) than our lower self likes to accept.”
This problem arises for you because you believe you need to have a “thought of presence”. You don’t. You’re only in the fog because you think you are – it’s all in your mind.
Siddiq 170: “Membership is around 2 thousand, just as it was 6 months ago.”
Not for long. More and more are leaving, and many more are considering it. Many are hanging on for a while because they’ve been told they can pay either no or very low donations.
Somebody (#14-190), if Howard is Nick Sp—-ding, then he seems to have lost the sense of humor I thought I observed all those years ago. Maybe the weight of buffers erected since then squashed it? The posts are notable for lack of humor and indeed much passion. But, the rest does fit…
Unoanimo and Bruce, what lovely quotes. Words do carry energy! I also enjoyed the story that retroactively appeared at post 14-10, I mention it because some of you might have missed it.
Since there has been recent mention of ancient teachings, I’d like to contribute to the discussion with these excerpts from “The Secret Oral Teachings in Tibetan Buddhist Sects” by Alexandra David-Neel:
“The Buddha insisted strongly on the necessity of examining the propositions put forward by Him, and of understanding them personally before accepting them as true.
The ancient texts leave no doubt on this point:
“Do not believe on the strenght of traditions even if they have been held in honour for many generations and in many places; do not believe anything because many people speak of it; do not believe on the strength of sages of old times; do not believe that which you have yourselves imagined, thinking that a god has inspired you. Believe nothing which depends only on the authority of your masters or priests. After investigation, believe that which you have yourselves tested and found reasonable, and which is for your good and that of others.” (Kalama Sutta)
And from the same book, on the subject of death and reincarnation:
“The answer to those that imagine that Buddhist salvation consists in the annihilation of the ‘ego’, at the death of the ‘person’, is that, as Buddhism denies the existence of an ‘ego’ or a soul, whatever be the name given to it, there cannot be any question of the annihilation of that which is held to be non-existent.”
“In reality there is annihilation but it is that of false views, of ignorance, and more exactly of the belief in the existence of an ‘ego’ which is independent, homogeneous and permanent, a belief which deforms our understanding of the world in deforming our mental vision.”…
“…The well-informed dreamer may cease taking pleasure in dreaming. He may stop imitating those dreamers who, enjoying the phantasmagoria which they watch and in which they play a part, persist in wishing to remain asleep. In truth, why do the dreamers fear awakening, why do they imagine in advance other dreams of hells and heavens which await them after death? It is because they fear that with the disappearance of the ‘images seen in dreams’, the illusory ‘Ego’ which is an integral part of them will disappear. They have not yet perceived that the real face of this chimerical ‘Ego’ is the face of Death. As long as the idea of this impermanent Ego lasts, this simple mass of elements which various causes have brought together and which other causes will separate, death also subsists. The Dhammapada alludes to the disappearance of this phantom from the field of our mental activity when it refers to whom ‘death does not see’, that is, he for whom death does not exist.
“The awakening is liberation, salvation. The Secret Teachings propose no other object than this to their pupils. “To wake up…The Buddhas have done nothing else than this, and it is this awakening which has made them become Buddhas.”
Also, in case he is still looking for examples of a sequence of twelve, maybe someone could suggest to Asaf to check the Buddhist theory of the “Interdependent originations”, also known as the doctrine of the twelve causes, which is known to contain exoteric and esoteric layers of meaning.
“I know Howard Carter.
He has Vanity, Power and Fear features. Mars-Jovial.
He also has a great sense of humor and believes in magic. He sees Magic everywhere he goes. And if you don’t argue with him he will be your best friend (especially if you are a woman).”
_________________________________
You must be a Russian female (?) Italian?
It’s a little humorous because as soon as I read “especially if you are a woman”… the name everyone is a buzz with just popped in my mind, without any mental-ing at all on my part…funny how the brain is just that kinda little intuitive coconut.
BTW… Nick doesn’t have a drop of Power, unless he’s borrowed it’s outward form in some ‘act’… I know him well, the V and F are spot on; usually Solar-Mars-Jovials don’t have much room for the earth hugging Power feature, there are exceptions I am sure; Patricia S. for instance.
Welp. If that is who HC is, then this explains allot; not that we need to much more to understand where HC is getting his coconut milk from.
BTW…since I am on the subject of HC007, after re-reading some of Siddiq’s postings, I was wrong, I really thought I knew who ‘he’ was, even that I had met him because of certain references in our conversation to ‘certain’ blog key-phrases and subjects… little hint-y playing between the two of us concerning identities, etc. Though now that Siddiq has reached stage Orange in his bottom of the barrel clawing, I do not recognize those nails across the blackboard… So, no, I can’t say I know Siddiq; yet, I must in some way.
Well Nick, if that is you, I can certainly understand your clinging now (not that it does not reflect all the dinosaurs clinging to the edge of the tar pits); I say this because I know your initial essence, and how Robert Burton has deeply exploited both your vanity feature and your self-pity, simultaneously, probably having convinced you that you’re working on yourself by fine turning your ‘daddy boy’ complex; only a rogue spirit-ego entity could do such a thing, while juggling your manhood eggs thirdly…
Yes, I am going out on a limb a bit here, I vowed to not write to HC, yet, I am writing to Nickolas actually; particularly if HC is not Nick… so I feel alright about this little excursion to the hummingbird nest… LOL, do you recall, when the hummingbird flew into the galleria during a sunday meeting and Robert Burton ‘keyed it’… LOL, then hummingbirds were the rave at ‘Apollo’, hummingbirds everywhere, even diamond studded hummingbirds…
Yep, its seems fitting though, the hummingbird as the mascot of the Fellowship of Friends, after all, its the only bird that can fly backwards to avoid the ‘dangerous’ unknown.
Wow, well, not to forget, I said it before, my love goes out to you, yet, it’s gonna be a bit of the ‘tough love’ thing; in many ways the Fellowship of Friends has asked for all this, I just turned the valves horizontal this morning on the Nitrous oxide and methane mixture for the stealth locomotive, who does not smoke, checked the railroad running through the Fellowship property, everything looks good, no explosives, no sign of railroad spikes missing, no stigmata on the tracks…
A request. Would it be possible to “announce” posts that have been released after moderation?
e.g. “14-10 has been released from moderation”
Those of us using the time-saving “Control+Down” function to automatically go to the latest entry, are likely to miss those posts that are inserted far back in the discussion.
It’s unfortunate, because the moderated posts often represent new voices, or those we’ve missed for a while.
Hey Ames, thanks, you are quite the teaser, but I just picked the number 1,000 because there are at least that much seriously dedicated students, this leaves room for some to to join or leave, and then there are newer students.
I have directly checked the membership numbers and it is what I said it was, still almost 2000–note that Mole refuses to say what the number is, just the comments are that “massive amounts are leaving”-type vague. It is simply not the case.
So then I asked for that raise…they told me to collect directly from you, Unanimo and Bruce. So how about a little “Penpal” donation to me old buddy?
Unanimo, do you know if I know that you know, if I know that Uno Animo, etc etc.? If you are who I think I am–we are in wonderful company! Good luck to us–dont forget to use the Penpal donation to keep me in business and I will do the same…
RN This problem arises for you because you believe you need to have a “thought of presence”. You don’t. You’re only in the fog because you think you are – it’s all in your mind.
I thought you have to have the initial impulse, otherwise we stay in our imagination, identification, etc., what do you think?
“usually Solar-Mars-Jovials don’t have much room for the earth hugging Power feature, there are exceptions I am sure; Patricia S. for instance.”
Solar-Mars-Jovials…Patricia, sorry, I don’t think so. I love Patricia, have known her for a LONG time, and have a very different opinion. She’s one of the members I wish only the best for, bless her. Unless there a two Patricia S.’s.
Sorry Bruce, but I have to ask you again to make a PenPal donation immediately. Make it worth my while, I may just leave this blog at this rate of pay. You all would be very sorry if only Howard is left to take shots at.
Siddiq, I regularly press the PenPal button. The machinery delivers mixed results, like the ‘New’ new math. If the Ouspensky office can’t afford a raise, you’ll have to go directly to Burton; he can certainly afford it. And when you do, specify cash, otherwise you’ll just get blue pills—and a request for a donation.
Siddiq, the current number of FOF is 1700 as I STATED IN A POST ON THE PREVIOUS THREAD.NOTHING VAGUE ABOUT IT.I ALSO GAVE MY SOURCE….LINDA T.
Seems like you are to ‘busy being present’ to take in whats in front of your face.Like words on a screen for instance.
And yes, I like to see your ass kicked here because you represent everything pnony about the FOF.You started off with your ‘King of hearts ‘ love- everyone -Mr Reasonable act but it’s falling apart now as witnessed by your last flurry of reactions.
I can guarantee Siddiq is not Collin. I’m not even sure Collin is Collin; he’s definitely not the person you describe, at least not now.
Also, yes, there are two Patricia’s with last names starting with S. I agree with your comment about your friend Patricia. From what I know about her, the other Patricia does not deserve to be slandered either. She just has a power feature, like a lot us do.
Another name inaccuracy I noted earlier was someone described as Allison, whose real name happens to be Alisanne. This one needs to be accurate, for posterity!
All these hidden identities are really weird. I for one would like to know who I’m listening to. If any of you masked people know me and trust me to give you respect and keep your confidence (including Siddiq and Howard Carter), please feel free to write to me privately. I might like to communicate something better not shared with +/-2000 of our closest friends. (Worth a try.)
Wouldn’t you think these people would have the balls to put a face to their names? Especially if they are so willing to defend their paths. I wonder what they’re afraid of, hmmmmmmmmm?
Do you mean that Collin is a completely different person now, internally? That would be wonderful. He was a very talented person, but to my way of thinking, he had some pretty fucked up priorities.
#190 Somebody:
I know Howard Carter.
He has Vanity, Power and Fear features. Mars-Jovial.
He also has a great sense of humor and believes in magic.
He sees Magic everywhere he goes. And if you don’t argue
with him he will be your best friend (especially if you are a
woman).
ALL TRUE except I am NOT Howard Carter…..and I am sure
this is good news for Howard….however he/she is……
and…good news for Un_anim_ because he has not broken
his vow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The “magic” on this page of the drama is that, before I read my name on the blog, I WAS formulating a post:
To ask Howard Carter
Siddiq…and
GOlb (if they are truly
current students)
to discontinue posting to the blog.
Since my many efforts to find who they were had failed,
using the Shiek as a private go-between off the blog
itself, was the next step…….until seeing my nam_ today….
My thoughts are these:
Dear Howard, Siddiq, and GOlb:
Please consider not participating in the blog….
Paraphrased:
Rodney Collin said that giving knowledge and attention
to issues esoteric, when someone is not asking for them,
violates the principles of esoteric transmission.
Robert has asked not to have discussion amongst
ourselves, about students who have left…This helps
to “leave their space clean.”
Robert has also asked that we avoid “unnecessary”
association with friends who have chosen to leave.
So, if you would consider that no one has been officially
asked to participate on the blog except probably the
legal people, and that considerable energy has gone
from you, into the blog that is confrontational and
provocative, maybe…. could you find it beneficial
to stand down?
Also, from the view that the blog may offer a doorway
to a place of peace and healing for pain and suffering
that you may consider real or imaginary, this is their
process, not yours. Give them their space. Generally,
people consult with those they trust before
making big decisions. If there were any confusions,
misgivings, or questions….they usually ask before
making choices……please consider “Hafiz, step
aside…It is you who are in the way.”
Also……Howard, Siddiq, and GOlb,
If you feel that the blog is a neutral space for discourse,
you may be naive…..
in addition to offering a doorway to peace and healing, it also
seems to offer another doorway to a “War Room” where
sincere and heartfelt plans for action are being made.
It’s interesting that the Greater Fellowship site are always advertising their’s as the more, let’s say, Democratic, and we’re the Bush war mongers… LOL;
the little flurry of activity between Siddiq and Bruce happens all the time at Isis, in students homes and when Robert Burton thinks he’s gonna be late to get those cuff links or anything else that seems almost off his fingertips…
Those in the Fellowship of Friends who ‘think’ their beloved teacher does not express negativity or that the members of the beloved Greater Fellowship site do not express these dramas and negativity (whether its off or online) are very mistaken:
I like it in here, its honest and the material is not hiding behind a two way mirror;
do you guys remember those 1970’s mirrored glasses that were all the rave? They still give me the willies. BTW, Goethe had a real pet ‘peeve’ about the arrival of sunglasses; he detested them and would not speak to a person until they took their sunglasses off…
So, try hard, members of the Greater Fellowship site to not wear Ray Bans and please don’t hide behind the “…and we’ve not got the negativity thing’.
Of course you do, otherwise your vanity feature and good student syndrome would not still be stealing energy from your sex center to wiseacre such comparisons that no one with a hectare of human experience would ever take as sincere and a balanced picture of an evolving soul.
Shivapuri Baba said that meditation was for mad men; to try and make one’s meditation room away from every day environments, etc. Yes self remembering brews up all sorts of stuff: how do you think it is that Ouspensky said that “It gets worse before it gets better?” (I think the Fellowship of Friends has had that one covered for 35+ years).
Every soul has and will continue to wade through these ups and downs (inside and outside themselves); its where you land and what all this break dancing is about, where it goes in the moment, this to me is worthy of attention; actually everything is.
To me, the Greater Fellowship website needs to rethink their ‘Us and Them’ approach; it sounds very familiar, yes?
At least their aims are different; I simply see all this as a great opportunity to be conscious friends, not formator-ily conscientious.
Until you wade through the swamp of yourself, you’ll never
harvest lotus seeds. This is something the Fellowship of Friends has missed in a very big way so far as taking the next step to graduation; too caught up in Robert Burton’s report card to consider their own as legitimate.
A whole school could be founded on Rumi’s works alone;
he knew about graduation, particularly after Sham’s death.
I don’t see the Greater Fellowship network as “us and them” at all. It’s very inclusive. Many people both in and out. It’s like the positive half of this blog. Both are needed.
Yes, I agree with you, we all have features, can’t get rid of our organs to spite our weight, can we?
You’re a pretty easing going spirit Joseph, take it easy, it’s July, no body is slandering anyone; unless you’re saying that pointing out one’s mechanics to assist oneself in understanding certain manifestations that need a little ‘work’ is something ‘personal’ enough to call ’slander’…
Can anyone slander your presence?
Certainly feelings of essence can be slandered, though I believe anyone working on themselves, after a bit of introspection, would be hard pressed to be hurt over the color of their replacement luggage, so long as the airport
put back all the good stuff you got while out of town.
Do you not agree?
I do not believe its possible to hurt the feelings of essence with objective knowledge, so long as one is loving the traveler, otherwise you get what is most practiced in the Fellowship of Friends, negative photographs, whew!
It is very rare; I would say 1 out of 20 photographs given are ‘real’; usually they’re the King of Clubs saying, “Get out of the way, I see you already.” or the King of Hearts saying, “Come my way, I have not seen you lately.”
And then there’s the feature-play, moaning and groaning through the flute of true personality spittle…
Wow, what a ride!
It’s good to see you again; I thought you had left us, so to speak…
_________________________
to respond to 123 vera.mente
The will be no class action lawsuit as it requires dedicated attorneys. They must either believe there is a strong enough case and sufficient assets to make big money or have someone pay them. This is why I have repeatedly stated that it is the recently departed Fellowship members and currant students who have the power to cause a change. If a sufficient number complain to the government agencies like the office of the state attorney general or the United States atone for the Northern Ca. region then there can be a criminal investigation. If there is sufficient cause for an indictment and a trail then that material becomes available for a civil suit.
What grounds. Fraud, making false representations, violations of immigration laws, soliciting prostitution, embezzlement of funds, Falsifying financial records, conspiracy to defraud, make the whole board of directors libel.
The Fellowship is even a school of relative awakening. Robert Burton if he crystallized at all is a hasnamuss individual. The Fellowship still has devoted “students” whose whole life is centered on the belief in the divine consciousness of Robert Burton. Isis will be his shrine. I would not be surprised if there are already plans for his Mausoleum. Who knows what great miracles he will be attributed with. once he is dead.
Robert Burton is a clever criminal he has protected himself well. he is not immune though. Interesting what protects him the most is the lack of conscience and consciousness of Fellowship members past and present. Rather than wishing. Someone has to begin by filing complaints. I can’t do it the statute of limitations Is long past. Someone who left within the last years or who is a currant member.
220 Sam.1
Thanks for maybe putting my mind at rest. Id hate to think Nick had deteriorated so much. From discussions a long time ago he gave me the impression of knowing that things were far from ideal but being kind of stuck having burned his bridges. Mind you the slow insidious brain washing over the intervening years might corrupt anyone. I wonder what would have become of me if I hadnt become Burtons ” man of the moment” which ironically was what helped me to see the light.
I might be worse than the worst pro fofers, out using any spare time to bookmark.
As someone reminded us a little earlier “there but for fortune stand you or I” in this case I count myself fortunate for having escaped that fate.
Thank you Lord!
love to ALL Cy.
If Robert found a quote/ image in the schools of the past pointing to pre-life or after-life, he would point out that it refers to the stage before starting the sequence.
And key the after-life as prolonged presence..
“I can’t do it the statute of limitations Is long past. Someone who left within the last years or who is a currant member.”
_________________________________
Just a bit of info for all you X-men who ‘think’ you’re past the ’statute of limitations’…
The year and a day rule does not apply to writing letters to reveal the fraud and criminal aspects of the Fellowship of Friends; after all, they are still sentencing people for crimes that occurred 30 to 40 years ago; so, Whalerider, you’ve got some room to move a few objective tidal wave splashes too… particularly if it’s not for money, your individuality would be precious to ‘the class’ itself.
Nothing is over till it’s over; again, its not the money, its the exposure and cessation of more of the same, this is to me worth energy and conscience towards…
And there is a bankroll ‘a former student’… There’s no less than 40 million dollars worth of assets floating around in there; all paid by former students, which, BTW, their investments are still reaping profit (dividends), particularly in regards to the vineyard and RVW.
Federal procedure has several guidelines for maintaining a class action lawsuit, they are ~
1. the class must be so large that individual suits would be impracticable. (11,000 or less will do)
2. there must be legal or factual questions common to the class. (church members who are under Robert Burton’s thumb, treated as and milked like cult members.)
3. the claims or defenses of the representative parties must be typical of those of the class, and
(any non profit organization whose even been defrauded)
4. the representative parties must adequately protect the interests of the class. (non profit organizations or churches)
And get used to the phrase ‘de facto’…
BTW, Bruce, I was very innocently using Patricia S. as an example of a solar-mars-jovial who has ‘power’ in their luggage, unlike the majority; to me, all of us are walking Rembrandt paintings with eye holes cut out for us to see out of.
______________________________
BTW #2 ~ Although there may be certain limitations in a class action suit for very, very X-men, this does not mean there’s no incentive to participate; any assets liquidated to settle such a class action suit could be agreed by more current X-men to be shared or given as ‘gifts’ to their ‘elder’ X-men.
_________________
Bruce 213: “I’m beginning to think you might be Collin. You’re very reminiscent of that snide, shit eating little jerk.”
Joseph 221: “I can guarantee Siddiq is not Collin. I’m not even sure Collin is Collin; he’s definitely not the person you describe, at least not now…..From what I know about her, the other Patricia does not deserve to be slandered either.
Unoanimo 231: “no body is slandering anyone; unless you’re saying that pointing out one’s mechanics to assist oneself in understanding certain manifestations that need a little ‘work’ is something ‘personal’ enough to call ’slander’… Can anyone slander your presence? Certainly feelings of essence can be slandered, though I believe anyone working on themselves, after a bit of introspection, would be hard pressed to be hurt over the color of their replacement luggage, so long as the airport put back all the good stuff you got while out of town. Do you not agree?”
Uno, what on earth are you talking about? Bruce slandered Collin (to slander someone means to say something negative and untrue about them). Joseph called him on it. It’s simple really.
Regarding lawsuits…
It would seem pertinent to get some facts to help make an informed decision. Does the FoF still have insurance against malfeasance of officers any more? It seems that the insurance companies would have run out of patience (read, raise their rates sky–high or refuse coverage altogether) now they know that the lawsuits indicate a pattern, not an accident. What is happening financially? What is the cash flow now, and what is projected for the future under what scenarios? What will be the consequences if the students who are ‘behind in their payments’ and whose membership will expire July 15th actually fail to pony up? How long can stragglers be induced to stay with reduced payments, and how long can the organization afford that? When are land and property taxes due? (Yes, the million-dollar paintings are real property, and taxable, Virginia—if the county and state knows about them). How about payments on back taxes owed? When are the loan repayments due? Are there any other lawsuits or judgments pending? Do any readers—who know any of these answers for an absolute fact—care to share?
Next, is it a good idea at all to initiate a lawsuit? As far as timing, the Fellowship may not have ever been weaker, less able to defend itself. Still, don’t ever underestimate a cornered beast or a cornered combination of Burton/Goldman. Or the power Burton has to raise big money in an emergency. Anyway, just speaking to possible monetary compensation, it doesn’t seem worth it if there is no insurance, who’s going to pay if you win? (and, don’t forget, who’s going to pay if you lose?) An organization smothered in debt, mortgaged to banks and Abraham Goldman to the max? (ask, how did Abraham acquire his present property on the northwest side of the Shakespeare Meadow? Not by ‘pro bono’ work, for sure). And, there is a statute of limitations, though (I know, from bitter experience) that can be set aside.
How about the effect on your internal world? What is your motivation? Are you doing it to protect the innocents in future, as Unoanimo suggests? To get revenge for being made a patsy, or getting reamed, or in memory of Brian S. or others? The forces and their order in a triad make all the difference to the outcome. When one acts, one is responsible for the consequences, intended or otherwise.
Speaking for myself, I will not join a lawsuit, though I would help one in any way I am able—if I agreed with the aims. That is the way I have worked it out for myself with the knowledge I have, and the being I possess. Additional knowledge might change that viewpoint. I’d advise anyone thinking of a lawsuit to deeply study the external and internal ramifications. Unoanimo’s and A Former Student’s suggestions of getting a government agency to enter as the active force is certainly another, more indirect way; there might be more, and different types of, unforeseen consequences, though.
Hopefully one of us who is a lawyer could enter the conversation to add perspective and experience.
And the results and ramifications? Some have been stated before. Others suggest themselves: What would be the effects of the ‘martyrdom’ of Burton on the followers? That might produce the opposite of what some hoped for. What of those who have stated they would die or kill for Burton? What about the Suzanne and Michael Ad—s, or the Dorothy Bs of the FoF, what happens to them?
What a can of worms! It’s beyond me; I’m one of those who’s put salt instead of sugar on his cereal more than once!
Hi Unoanimo #229 – I just wondered where you got this impression about GFOF site: “To me, the Greater Fellowship website needs to rethink their ‘Us and Them’ approach”.
Sounds to me like something you’re imagining. (Well, you must be imagining, because to my knowledge you’re not even on this site).
Greater Fellowship site has other purpose than verbal fighting – it’s for connecting and reconnecting of friends. Like a big virtual party! You don’t go to a friendly party with intention to hit some faces, do you?
It is not for “us” or “them” – it’s for all, no boundaries between members and non-members and that’s what’s so cool about it! And yes, so far it’s been positive, friendly and just fun – like any good party should be, until someone gets really drunk and start fighting, screaming and breaking stuff…
Even the name (Greater Fellowship) seems rather INCLUSIVE to me, not an opposition. It’s rather like a big inclusive embrace, not a competition in size…
It’s not that someone is claiming or pretending to have “no negativity” – it’s just not expressed on GFOF site, simply because there has been no need for it there. Not because of some kind of control or set rules. People just feel friendly, glad to see each other – that’s it.
There is time to fight, and there is time to hug too. It’s all good.
I am sorry you’re missing out on it, but – as I told you in my e-mail – it’s not about anonymity or fear there.
E-mail me when you’re ready to show your face and I’ll invite you, with great pleasure!
“Uno, what on earth are you talking about? Bruce slandered Collin (to slander someone means to say something negative and untrue about them). Joseph called him on it. It’s simple really.”
____________________________
“No body is slandering anyone” meaning no one in (my post) concerning Patricia, i.e., me, myself and I ‘and’ the guy who has my shadow under his feet.
_______________
Rhino, are you just being silly because it’s T.G.I.F.?
_______________
Wow, we are the July opportunist aren’t we: scale my friend, scale; have you not heard anyone refer to themselves as “no body here is…” in the past participle, referring to one’s self as a solo participant with another in the present, who has a ‘beef’ or a ‘bone to pick’ concerning their actions?
Bruce 240: thanks! These things are indeed subjective.
Uno 243: I still haven’t a clue what you’re trying to say (your writing style is so opaque), but I probably never will and we’re wasting space so let’s call it a day on this one.
In my #221 “slander” was probably too strong a word. I regret using it, and was not taking aim at Bruce.
I don’t have any issues with Bruce or the what he says. It’s just that people who stopped being FOF members many years ago may not always know what current members are like today. This works both ways. I have cringed at some posts describing wonderful, life-enhancing individuals of 20 years ago who have by now hardened into stuffed inner-circle shirts. This is not Collin’s situation. There has been some very bad shit that has happened in the Fellowship of Friends, and at the same time there are also many fine people who have passed through, or who have somehow remained members…so far. In a momentum of understandable righteous indignation — indignation I frequently share — regarding the psychic harm perpetrated knowingly or unknowingly by Robert Burton and his blindest devotees, it is also possible to hit out at people who simply are innocent.
That said, slander is not a word that applies to the many blatantly unconscionable actions that have come to light through this blog, and I think it is a very healthy thing that people like Bruce, WhaleRider and others express their feelings without restraint. Otherwise remaining members can’t have a sense of what it really felt like to be on the losing end of RB’s mythic society. These honestly expressed feelings speak louder than facts alone.
I also think that no one is innocent anymore when they know the facts but do nothing about it.
#160 Thanks Bruce that gave me a good laugh….I know…I know I’m behind on this Blog….I’ve go to catch up…boy…you go away for a few days and the whole Blog changes
“This network came to life through the desire to exchange experiences and connect current and former members of the Fellowship of Friends and related 4th way schools…..so good to see you here…”
What us and them?? So far I have found the site sweet, fascinating, refreshing.
Thanks, though I already have several invitations.
Where did I get the impression?
From segments like this ~
“Greater Fellowship site has other purpose than verbal fighting – it’s for connecting and reconnecting of friends. Like a big virtual party! You don’t go to a friendly party with intention to hit some faces, do you?”
______________________
I think you’ve answered your own question.
_______________________
It’s good to know that you visit here from time to time; I will visit you too, though I have yet to do so, based, not on fear, rather, ‘necessity’.
I guess we all have to go with our feelings; for now I need to focus here, no matter how ‘dark’ or ‘fisty cuffs’ it gets;
sometimes in order to get two suns one has to go fishing in black holes; I like the spontaneity here and as I wrote to you before, I sense this is my environment,
something is happening in here that feels ‘transformative’ and stretches my being a little bit more than a prescribed environment (so far as my sense of ‘prescribed’) goes…
It was not meant to seem ‘harsh’ Janna, I know you’re a rather sensitive spirit and so am I, hopefully all of us are… I simply do not see this blog site as a ‘fight’ or ‘flight’ place, nor is it negative:
to me, it’s what pushes one’s buttons and freezes presence, turning it into static identification, this is perhaps in the minus realm:
is it not ironic that it is usually the person who has a negative response to what they see as negativity that gives the photograph? That so often a Fellowship of Friends photograph contains two snap shots, one of the photographed and the fingerprints on the camera.
I am pretty much finished with the idea of perceiving the obvious ‘obviously’, I simply cannot except that the ‘buck stops here’ when someone expresses negativity… then trot over ‘there’ where the buck hasn’t sharpened it’s horns (yet)…
For too long I have witnessed essence in deep freeze because of negative emotion neglect and shyness; and those who do this are certainly not the kind of spiritual beings that I could say have even stepped above that which they slide aside and pigeon hole with an extreme, i.e., hyper King of Hearts self calming and Sunday morning soft-man-of-war techniques (not so soft before and after meetings though)…
its a trap, to get on any fence, let alone find oneself buying white paint to give it a new coat before winter…
They’re beautiful people everywhere Janna, even those who are ready to stand self-revealed and express ‘negativity’ or ‘yearning’ without the ‘fig leaf’ of ‘modesty’, which is simply uneducated essence, whose acting, hoping the ‘act’ will somehow stick as their ‘role’… Does anyone really have a role? How can this be when nothing ends?
__________________________________
H.L. Mencken, wrote this passage about the U.S. early last century. I substituted the words “Robert Burton’s” for the word “governmental”.
This is how I see one aspect of this blog!
“And here, more than anywhere else I know of or have heard of, the daily panorama of human existence, of private and communal folly—the unending procession of Robert Burton’s extortions and chicaneries, of commercial brigandages and throat-slittings, of theological buffooneries, of aesthetic ribaldries, of legal swindles and harlotries, of miscellaneous rogueries, villainies, imbecilities, grotesqueries and extravagances—is so inordinately gross and preposterous, so perfectly brought up to the highest conceivable amperage, so steadily enriched with an almost fabulous daring and originality, that only the man who was born with a petrified diaphragm can fail to laugh himself to sleep every night, and to awake every morning with all the eager, unflagging expectation of a Sunday-school superintendent touring the Paris peep-shows.”
The FOF is a church, and if it dissolves, all of its property goes to the State. And, it doesn’t go to the plaintiff in a class action, either, unless there’s a default on the judgement. Problem with that is you are behind a long line of creditors, the first in line being the mortgage holder. And, enforcing a judgment is tricky.
Otherwise, you would have to have the standing to lien property, and then you would have to prevail. It it highly unlikely.
Furthermore, as you who are banging the drums out of your personal need for revenge and your short-sighted, unenlightened and uncharitable self-centeredness, think about the downstream effects of your actions. Think about the many others who would be hurt, possibly more and in more ways than you ever were, just so you can feel vindicated.
Also, it’s not your place to decide that the FOF is not a “religion” on behalf of the rest of humanity. You are not the “deciders”. There’s that old First Amendment thing raising it’s head again. You speak, I speak, who’s right?
The voices of reason here, like Sharon and Ames, are important. Let cooler heads prevail. Think about just how wonderful the French revolution was. Reread Animal Farm.
#227
“It’s interesting that the Greater Fellowship site are always advertising their’s as the more, let’s say, Democratic, and we’re the Bush war mongers… LOL;”
Hey, where do you see all the “advertising”? “always”??
Unoanimo, you are so active today! Do you have AC? :)
I know who you are. Actually I never read your messages before I found out who you were – they are too long. But today I read them all and found it fascinating. Keep writing!
Good god Uno, you are owlish and prickly recently – the heat getting to you? Maybe I can see your window from here. Can you see the buzzards – out in force today – circling over the valley looking for prey overcome by the heat?
So, what’s with the attack on the GF. It’s a networking tool for crying out loud! Ever heard of LinkedIn or Zoominfo or Oldfriends networks? These are the equivalent networking tools for professionals, business, & schools & colleges: same common technology & concept.
Members are encouraged to join the GF; this networking tool helps integrate past & present FOFers – a merely convenient apolitical initiative to connect old friends. This tool transcends the “them & us” polarization.
Don’t waste your energy on it. So what if some people begin critical or “negative” discussion threads on their own pages or the forum. L&LL, I reckon. Each one of us has our own road out of the FOF.
Hey Uno, I tune in many times a day looking for your posts. Don’t bristle over this one.
LTY
“He also has a great sense of humor and believes in magic. He sees Magic everywhere he goes. And if you don’t argue with him he will be your best friend (especially if you are a woman).”
“If Robert found a quote/ image in the schools of the past pointing to pre-life or after-life, he would point out that it refers to the stage before starting the sequence.
And key the after-life as prolonged presence..”
no kidding – he is the only One that only Focus on Presence….. I’m after Him!
The aggregate of some posts has a subtly moralizing tone: not accepting what IS happening for people – the great diversity of reactions to the FOF experience; instead stating what “Should & Shouldn’t Be”!
…”should be over the FOF experience…should be moving on…, shouldn’t be anonymous on the blog and GF…, shouldn’t express negativity about the experience…, shouldn’t spend too much time on the blog…, shouldn’t contribute multiple posts in a day…”
That burdensome “Should” mentality is an outgrowth of the FOF culture – one feels its limitations in time. L&LL.
Was it Gurdjieff or Ouspensky who said humanity is in prison and needs to escape and that only a few could because too many would draw the attention of the devil……..
Posts #’s 202, 203 and 208 used the word PENPAL. Which is what convicts desire.
This blog is full of PENPALS. Well, I’m not to sure of the PALS.
.
Saw Asaf in YC… Got me thinking…
What does that nice, talented & sincere young man tell his mother and father about his life? What a quantity of deception must be necessary. Asaf is not much older than my own son. What a terrible grief I would feel if Asaf’s play were his, and I lost my son to Robert, in the way that Asaf’s family must have lost him. What indescribably rage I would feel towards Robert, if my son were used as Asaf is used by Robert. Involvement with Robert necessarily separates parents and child: the need for lies and disconnection is absolute. Robert deliberately usurps the parental role, explicitly denigrates familial relations, engages his “boys” in a corrupting lifestyle that burdens them with the need for secrecy and falseness, effectively separating them from all, excepting those in the same predicament. What a f**king sad mad pathetic tragedy is going on here, embodied for me in the sight of that nice young man, Asaf.
I feel outraged now for all the parents that are “bereaved” of their sons…every boy that Robert consumes is somebody’s dear son — subject to debasement, emasculation, degradation, and other subtler psychic damage.
Those young men believe they do not need help – reminiscent of the syndrome in which victims eventually willingly collude with and protect their abusers – but their resistance only increases the pathos.
I wish I had known more, earlier. Would have left much earlier had the “school” maintained the proper transparency. Perhaps – like so many – I am guilty of intentional ignorance.
Robert is a poor damaged specimen of a mother’s son, that we all molded and brought into being by our needs of the moment and our beliefs that needed an object. Without us, Robert could not exist. We created his role – he was merely sucked into the vacuum created by our spiritual yearnings. Then we groomed him to play the part perfectly – in precisely the form we expected and needed. Robert has done nothing but serve as the personification of our spiritual longing. Robert reflects only what we are and what we wanted.
All the effort was made by us: every material result and created thing in the FOF was achieved by one of us, fueled by our own personal inner desire for enlightenment – however we defined it.
Our so called “states”, “moments of presence”, concept of “self-remembering, and all perceived inner changes are subjectively experienced, and are the product of our biology, conditioning, imagination – unique and personal to each – not the consistent results of a method or “Way”.
Firstly, Robert served the purposes we defined but had few attributes other than those we subliminally ascribed and to which he subtly responded. Later in this drama, he began to perform the role more independently and he began to modify his own role according to his own ambitions.
This law-conformable & divine process creates every teacher/guru on the planet, so I believe – although, sometimes has good outcome. This process evolves each guru according to the requirements of the energies personalized in the form of a specific group.
I do not believe that there was ever anything great or mystical here.
Please be advised that Greater Fellowship has a forum (“group”) called Rude Argument.
It is not all sweetness and light over there.
Sure, it’s not easy to pull off a real-time shootout volley like it is here. Paths meander and branch, intersect and intertwine, double back on themselves, and leave you talking to the flowers.
Here, you have to run twice as fast just to stay in the same place. Your head can get chopped off in the blink of an eye. Grinning cats appear and vanish with disconcerting regularity.
I wanted to weigh in on the Greater Fellowship versus Blog controversy. From what I can see they’re mutually complementary. This one allows for anonymity if you want it and allows for more real time back and forth. The GF seems to be more about connecting with friends and establishing a support network for people who have left or are thinking about leaving the FOF. I didn’t quite understand what Unoanimo was referring to. I haven’t seen anything on the GF site forbidding anyone to ‘get negative’ or whatever , it just doesn’t seem to lend itself to that. I’m glad to have access to both – lots of really great, smart, funny people who have shared a common experience just talking together and learning from each other.
Janna:
You are providing a valuable service with your site, promoting a nurturing, self-affirming, and positive force in people’s lives. Hey, any chance you can share some of the gems posted on ‘the son of the blog’ with us warriors ‘over here’? Show us what we are missing ‘over there’, if you are willing…
I long for the day when the lesser Fellowship is closed down, and I can openly join the greater Fellowship. But for right now I feel like a surgeon wearing a protective face mask and gloves hard at work peeling back layers upon layers of diseased, smelly, infected, gangrenous tissue…I need the mask and gloves for my own protection.
*******************
To Whom It May Concern:
I think we can agree that there is an enormous amount of energy generated by having a conscience. Conscience allows us to experience indignant repulsion and righteous anger. But anger can be addictive. An appropriate use of anger is to use it as a motivator for change, for fuel to take action; otherwise it can deplete your energy, hijack your thinking, and turn your creativity into negative imagination. And unresolved anger turned inward causes depression and physical illness.
So if you are willing to channel your energy toward making a big change in how Mr. Burton does business let’s put our heads and keyboards together. We have keyboards, we have time, we have a pool of people online, and we have the law on our side. Thank God for Goggle! Putting pressure on Howard and Siddiq is getting us no place. We must focus our pressure on the body corporeal of the Fellowship of Friends, Inc. if we want our presence to make a difference.
Like Ames, I do not wish to be part of a lawsuit at the moment. Lawyers usually want retainer fees upfront, and the judicial system is slow. I am not looking for any kind of financial settlement.
However…
We can begin a legal public awareness email campaign for free right now.
All we need is for someone to post a sample email informing anyone who does business with the Fellowship of Friends about the true nature of the group and some email addresses.
Who do they do business with?
Where do they sell the wine?
Who insures them?
Where do they do their banking?
Who is the mortgage company?
Who is the elected congress person for that district?
And if you see a poster in your hometown advertising a perspective student meeting, just show up and give out a few flyers with this blog address.
Don’t let your righteous anger eat at you, transform it into action! Taking action will raise your level of being. This blog will be an archive for us to show our children that we didn’t just sit around…we collectively did something to rid the planet of this corrupt organization and depose its sicko leader.
All you have to do is believe that change is possible and be brave enough to stand up to Goliath.
I’ve been thinking, and feeling, about the depth of psychological rehabilitation that may be required for some who wish or plan to leave the Fellowship, or for those who have already left.
There may well be some very personal long-term conflict or damage that cannot be easily repaired by Greater Fellowship parties and offers of emotionality, although these venues are certainly needed, positive and most welcome!
A while back, I investigated a re-hab center in Arizona as a way for me to exit into a “healthy new life,” but their five-day evaluation costs $8,400. I don’t even want to think of the cost of a full “treatment ” schedule!
So, this is just a question to put ‘out there’ for folks to consider:
Could interested parties create a psychologically neutral counseling service with one or two professionals, working pro bono, who could assist those who wish to move on, but who are hindered in some way from doing so — instinctively, emotionally, or otherwise?
I think that pooling resources to make professional counseling available to these persons would be much more constructive than investing in trying to organize expensive lawsuits as a form of retribution.
Revenge and lingering bitterness is not condusive to a healing process. Ideally, we want to help one soul at a time to garner strength and find their new evolutionary path!
This blog will be nothing but an archive of the many pathetic excuses we make for ourselves to NOT work on ourselves, but judge others. Besides gossip, old accounts, and enormous moral indignation, there is nothing here.
There has been almost nothing but total disdain to anyone who has honestly voiced some support for the FOF and Robert. Any positivity is bombarded with unrestrained negative reactions.
This blog is absolutely not doing anything, nothing any child will proudly read. Whalerider, you are in big time imagination still–sad.
Whalerider, I do mean no offense personally, I enjoy your emotional nature and postings, but when you come storming in some 20 years later and try to get others to take action–you remain anonymous–honestly where are you going with this?
presence, if reached is a kind of preparation for the fourth state, but Robert never talked about the fourth state.
It seems to me, that he does he not know very much about that state??
This blog will be nothing but an archive of the many pathetic excuses we make for ourselves to NOT work on ourselves, but judge others. Besides gossip, old accounts, and enormous moral indignation, there is nothing here.
There has been almost nothing but total disdain to anyone who has honestly voiced some support for the FOF and Robert. Any positivity is bombarded with unrestrained negative reactions.
This blog is absolutely not doing anything, nothing any child will proudly read. Whalerider, you are in big time imagination still–sad.
**********************
(Siggiq please do not read this, I want you to remain in the FoF as long as possible. This is for others.)
Just because you have a positive attitude toward what you assume is representative of a state of non-identification does not mean that you are any less identified, any less asleep, than those that are negative toward it. This is the catch-22. All these protesters out here were every bit as positively identified with Robert Burton, with the FoF and its interpretation of the Fourth Way as you are now, even more so. They all eventually flipped and so will you. The key is to put your confidence and your objectivity into yourself rather than into your school, rather than into your teacher or anything else. Rather than struggling to belong to this group of believers, struggle to belong entirely to yourself. If you disappoint yourself under such conditions then you’ve no one to blame but yourself and as human nature goes you will forgive yourself even before you discover any fault with yourself. You believe that you are now doing something that we never did enough of, remembering yourself, practicing presence, but you are wrong. In fact you are not actually remembering yourself when you indulge in obedient, unconditional belief and faith in the organization that you imagine you belong to. Some of your I’s are strongly attracted, strongly positive, but these are not the result of self-remembering, these are the result of a magnetic center that will one day wear out. If you were truly unidentified, meaning that if you were actually awake, it wouldn’t matter to you if you were in the school, or out of the school, or never heard of the school. There is no more consciousness accumulated within your school, there is no more non-identification available within your school, than there is outside your school. This is what we understand and have verified that you have yet to understand. There is hardly anyone on the planet more identified than your teacher. This is what the protesters have realized, that while selling non-identification as an elusive product the salesman is as identified with the proceeds as is humanly possible. You will see this for yourself at some point, much sooner if you ever actually get near the salesman himself. Right now you are defending an imaginary ideal that doesn’t actually exist except as a carefully constructed illusion of words and artificial mannerisms. We’ve all been there long before you and have looked behind the closed doors where the A influence is tallied up, we all know that the idealism is a clever form of identification that creates the illusion of non-identification. You are not “present” you are only using the propaganda to stop the negative halves of your centers from working because that is how Robert Burton controls his sheep, he teaches them to stop thinking and feeling. He misdirects their attention toward the blinding sun while he picks their pockets and unzips their pants. This is what he calls presence and because neither he nor his students know the difference everyone remains more or less in the same blinding trance. We’ve been in that trance and come out of it. If you want increased emotionality wait until you realize that all this devotional excitement is a waste of your time, now that’s emotional.
Siddiq, how can you verify that you are not the one in imagination about what is going on? I mean, really?
And what do you mean by positivity?
Please take the time to answer these honest and serious questions.
Take care,
Laura
From my experience with the public health system in this country, there is a lot of available for people with no property and low income. It’s the middle income people who seem to be out of luck. When I left the FOF I lost my job (they were interconnected). So I went to the county and was denied help because I had a small piece of land and therefore I didn’t qualify for assistance of any kind, even though there was nothing on the land.
I would suggest something called ‘cognitive behavioral therapy’. This addresses ‘in the moment’ behavior and does not dabble too much into personal history. I think most of us understand enough to realize what’s bothering us but this technique gives tools to change behavior or negative patterns of thinking.
I was able to get this for my son at minimal cost to me. My son suffers from a child of a former member of the Fellowship depression. Growing up in the Fellowship and then leaving the Fellowship had a tremendous effect on the children there. Much confusion and fear.
I found that by calling and inquiring, the health department and certain clinics will offer services at a discounted rate for low income people. No need to spend thousands when this is available for many.
It doesn’t have to cost a lot. What it does require is professionals who have experience with the problems and needs of people who have been in cults. The International Cultic Studies Association (formerly the American Family Foundation) is a network of such professionals.
If you would like to correspond privately on the subject, feel free to write me at veronicapoe@gmail.com.
Sidiq:276 This blog will be nothing but an archive of the many pathetic excuses we make for ourselves to NOT work on ourselves, but judge others. Besides gossip, old accounts, and enormous moral indignation, there is nothing here.
There is some truth to what you say, but I know you are a reasonable person so please consider this:
None of us really know the truth – you don’t and I don’t. It is also possible, even perhaps likely, based on the detructive nature of some of his actions, that Robert doesn’t. None of us know. None of us know.
For years, while in the Fellowship we guarded our thoughts. This produced a rebound, a sincere need, a need to be able to unleash free thought on the subject of Robert Burton. Within this rebound there are many emotions that have found expression. The result is not always beautiful or objective. But it is an expression of a need – a need that was supressed.
External consideration requires understanding that people, like you and me have needs. It means understanding that having needs is not neccessarily weakness. It means understanding that we all do not have the same needs. We are externally considerate when we allow others to fullfill their needs and to live their lives, and in so doing to grow to a more objecitve being. Some will not grow much. Others will thrive on freedom.
You are very externally considerate of Robert’s needs even though they hurt the Fellowship (economically) beyond measure. They appear to me to hurt the Fellowship in many ways.
My guess is that the moral indignation and resulting venom that bothers you is proportional to the hurt. Not that it is objective but that it is a result. It is a result of pain that could not be transformed. 4000 blogs of pain.
You and Howard represent a supporter of the hurt and the walls that guarded free thought. I think most of us on the Blog appreciate your position, your williness to participate, and your sincerity. Please do not take it personally that you are the recipient of some of the venom that is a result of the accumulation of suffering in silence.
We all appreciated the Fellowship. Some, like you and Howard still do. Most would admit to good things in the Fellowship and almost all agree that the Fellowship has attracted an amazing group of people. I read this (between the lines) in almost every blog. You are one of those amazing people.
But the Fellowship is controversial. It is difficult to understand. There is beauty and there is hurt. There are many lies. 4000 posts are a result of the need to understand it. To understand decades of devotion and extreme efforts, love and pain, deception and lies.
Almost everyone has a different relationship to the Fellowship because we all had different experiences both within and without.
But the blog is more than just this rebound. It is also a place for sincere students and former students to consider their most objective position in relation to these subjects. There are many jewels hidden in the mud and the mud is also a jewel. It is a reminder of the value and limitations of personal freedom.
My children, when they were young, were pretty good from my perspective. They often did what I said. They were (sometimes but not always) a representation of me and what I had leaned. Now they are not children. They are experimenting with their own position, their own principles, free from my worldview which had its limitations based on my limitations. Sometimes the result is pretty sometimes it is not, but there is beauty in their learning, beauty in the freedom that I give thim to do as they see fit. There is also risk.
Please do not take the attacks on you personally. You can be more than that. Bring back the love and compassion. Bring back the understanding that you too are not all knowing. Externally consider our need to be able to express our views without the rules and regulations. Understand where this comes from. Help us to understand even if it opens you to attacks. We all want to understand the hurt, the inefficiencies, the lust, the lies, the superiority complex along side the beauty. Help us to understand how the hurt and possible abuses of power are neccessary. Help us to transform our accounts. Understand that many think Robert went way too far and that they may, just may be right. Understand their indignation towards anyone that supports Robert and the status quo. Understand that it is not simple and that since we all have been there, we are not really open to the angles that many of us gave and have come to regret.
Consider the possibility, even if it is a bit threatening, that the blog is here because the Fellowship needs to change drastically to survive and that this change, if it is going to happen, requires open thought with love and compassion that is more objective than the hurt and venom. It may mean relating better to the outside world and acknowleging and respecting the morality of those that are not devotees. That if this change is going to occur, it means that you and others must support the change and help others to see the need.
So please keep blogging. Show us your love, compassion and understanding. Show us your objectivity. Show us how all this hurt can be transformed. Guide us to mature.
#190 Somebody:
I know Howard Carter.
He has Vanity, Power and Fear features. Mars-Jovial.
He also has a great sense of humor and believes in magic.
He sees Magic everywhere he goes. And if you don’t argue
with him he will be your best friend (especially if you are a
woman).
ALL TRUE except I am NOT Howard Carter…..and I am sure
this is good news for Howard….whowever he/she is……
and…good news for Un_anim_ because he has not broken
his vow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The “magic” on this page of the drama is that, before I read my name on the blog, I WAS formulating a post:
To ask HOWARD CARTER
SIDDIQ…and
GOLB (if they are truly
current students)
to discontinue posting to the blog.
Since my many efforts to find who they were had failed,
using the Shiek as a private go-between off the blog
itself, was the next step…….until seeing my nam_ today….
My thoughts are these:
DEAR HOWARD,SIDDIQ, & GOlb:
Please consider not participating in the blog….
Paraphrased:
Rodney Collin said that giving knowledge and attention
to issues esoteric, when someone is not asking for them,
violates the principles of esoteric transmission.
Robert has asked not to have discussion amongst
ourselves, about students who have left…This helps
to “leave their space clean.”
Robert has also asked that we avoid “unnecessary”
association with friends who have chosen to leave.
So, if you would consider that no one has been officially
asked to participate on the blog except probably the
legal people, and that considerable energy has gone
from you, into the blog that is confrontational and
provocative, maybe…. could you find it beneficial
to stand down?
Also, from the view that the blog may offer a doorway
to a place of peace and healing for pain and suffering
that you may consider real or imaginary, this is their
process, not yours. Give them their space. Generally,
people consult with those they trust before
making big decisions. If there were any confusions,
misgivings, or questions….they usually ask before
making choices……please consider “Hafiz, step
aside…It is you who are in the way.”
ALSO……Howard, Siddiq, and GOlb,
If you feel that the blog is a neutral space for discourse,
you may be naive…..
in addition to offering a doorway to peace and healing, it also
seems to offer another doorway to a “War Room” where
sincere and heartfelt plans for action are being made.
Siddiq, sounds like you are (as we used to say) “losing your work”, or a bit on the panicky side. If it is a real school you should have nothing to fear, and nothing to defend. They don’t burn at the stake anymore.
I think it’s clear Siddiq, HC, Golb are here to feed us bullshit on many levels. It’s not the first time this has been pointed out.
Siddiq is obviously having a different part of his “being” evoked by the threat of an outside force disrupting the superstructure he or she has come to depend on for his or her “value” in the FOF.
It’s also been pointed out countless times that these FOF defenders, as one purpose, are here to monitor any possible threat to their community.
After these thousands of posts, Ni_k comes with, what I feel, is an extraordinary post, identifies himself, does what he came to do, and moves on. As opposed to the dishonest, cowardly anonymous manipulations of the Siddiq’s, HC’s, LOL’s, GOlb’s etc.
It’s clear they learned well from the master scammer, but I don’t really think they’re worth shit to a tree.
I was reading a bit through the blog and is interesting to read the HC postings, I was the same. A follower without any questions, for everything which might have been not right action from the FOF, the teacher and the students there was a good buffer not to see it.
I am not bitter about my time in the FOF, because man I did have some good times there, and I think it was the right thing for me at that time (by the way I believe in destiny)
but it is funny for me today, see how I was, I think I was a fundamentalist, and when I see my real me, is a thinking person, with is not willing to follow a leader, but in that time I was not me, just somebody.
In the name of God or whatever, it was okay to hurt each other, and not just RB took money out of our pockets, other students too, over priced housing etc.
And what should one say if the arguments are so good, dont be identified, is just your instinctive center bla, bla, bla
how can a marriage work, if one uses too much of this terms and one can not say what one feels or think, how can a friendship work if one can not say what one feels or think
and it has nothing to do with not being present, it is a buffer to not get confronted with once actions, with once feelings etc.
And is it not a form of expression of negativity when one associates C-Influence just with suffering and friction, and never with the beauty of the sunshine, with finding once soul mate – sure than one is identified again.
Man do I love it – being identified, coming back to the moment and do not have a bad conscience or self deprecation. Feels good being me, loving me and just be happy
I verified there is more life after the FOF and if I go to the moon – do I care, actually I would prefer Venus is warmer
greetings to all of you Helene
Hey Nick: I was just formulating an angle in the shower and then I read yours, which seems to connect in a certain way.
What I have found after 14 years out, being in the Fellowship disallows complete feelings on both sides of the human emotional experience; that is, you don’t feel strongly either way. And you would retort that you’re Queen of Hearts has been replaced by your King of Hearts. What a big lie that is!
Since I left the Fellowship I feel strongly about all kinds of things, good and bad. And feeling very good or feeling very bad is something that is discouraged in the Fellowship. The fallout from this is that it allows a person to accept all sorts of bad behavior on the part of Robert, a lack of empathy for others, and all kinds of emotional bad habits start to set in. And by example students are learning how to become a sociopaths.
Please spare us the work angles. I believe it is useless to try to talk a person out of leaving the Fellowship. The only way to ‘verify’ that your life becomes whole again is to leave. Otherwise, you are stuck in a quagmire with many others who are living incomplete lives.
In cased you missed them, there are two excellent posts that showed up late due to being moderated. They are #268 from Parent and #269 from Morgan Le Fay. Check them out.
Ni*k Spa*ldi*g-, Man do I miss you! You were one of my best friends. I don’t want to argue with you, but have you verified those words of Rodney Collin you quoted? And have you noticed how many bloggers really don’t want to start a class action suit. They want people to have a life outside of the Fof so they can see that you can “work on yourself” and “self-remember” without having to pay so much money and without having to live 25 miles from the nearest traffic light.
If you come to Los Angeles please call. You can consider it necessary.
Did everyone notice the tiny “smiley face” at the bottom of the screen?
Personally, I found Ni_k’s post fairly neutral and magnanimous. I don’t agree with everything he said, but I respect where he’s coming from. I didn’t find it all that judgmental. I didn’t feel any defensiveness being evoked in me by reading it.
N_ck: “Robert has asked not to have discussion amongst
ourselves, about students who have left…This helps
to ‘leave their space clean.’ “
Well, what this actually does is prevent the obvious outgrowth of such discussions — the questions about why people have left, and comments about how many former members are living happy, productive, rewarding, and spiritually enriched lives. Additionally, the discussion inevitably touches upon Robert’s actions, the people who have been hurt by his actions, the cost of remaining in the school, and the idea that maybe — just maybe — they are doing the right thing by leaving the school.
Two of the most uncomfortable topics in the Fellowship are lying and former students.
I don’t know whether we will hear from you again following N_ik’s request. I apprecaite the way N_ik phrased his request (very open) but I personally hope that we do continue to hear from you.
I believe the blog involves us all (in or out). Yes it is healing for those of us that have left, but in a strange way it may be healing in a different way for those that are in also. I personally believe that I have seen some positive changes in the Fellowship as a result of the blog. It is more open. Many of my friends that are still in feel that they have gained in perspective and that the Fellowship has changed a little.
I think many of us underestimate the courage and independence required to continue to post here as a current student. You offer what is dear to you up for dissection and spitting on while going against the pressures from within the Fellowship to remain silent. You do provide balance.
Whther you continue or not, my hat is off to you for displaying such courage.
He was basically quoting the RB line. For me, that’s fine. I don’t think any person on a true “path” is going to allow (except temporarily) someone, regardless who, tell them what their right path on the continuum of life is. Eventually, those who continue to think and ask questions of themselves are going to see what they’re supposed to see.
Listen, I imagine that a LARGE number of members are reading this blog. L A R G E. The hierarchy is getting VERY UNCOMFORTABLE. Fuck em. Really, don’t believe ANY of the shit were getting from “you know who”. We still all have a occasional fling with the same non-discriminatory mindset we had when we were “in” and we were “good students”. There is no one from the group of assholes who is here for any other reason than to control and disrupt.
You can’t get indignant about people who won’t think for themselves. Those that do will continue to make the right decision. Including ignoring RB’s ridiculous “rules and suggestions” when they see something new out there and in themselves. I couldn’t give a fuck about the structure of the “school”.
The real shock when one leaves, after a short mourning period, is regaining a whole part of yourself that has been suppressed, abused, controlled and demeaned. One forgot the things they love, and the person they are. It really shakes one up. It’s like: “Holy fuck, I love doing this. I used to love doing this. This is me, and a part of me. Where the fuck has it been? Holy shit, Bruce…hello”.
What were providing here has never been seen on this scale in the school. If anyone tries to convince us that the members have much better things to do, either they are bad liars, or very fuckin stupid, but probably both.
Your leading message is “be present”. Surely this is what all spiritual disciplines say and have said: “Be here now,” “Live in the moment,” “Forget the past and future.” What is so unique about your approach?
The methods used for developing presence were perfected and established thousands of years ago, but in modern times they have lost their practical dimension. The Fellowship provides this practical dimension. Practical work begins where aspiration leaves off, showing us how and in what direction to make efforts against sleep and towards awakening in our daily life.
There is nothing to say against any other description of the experience of being present. “Be here now” or “Live in the moment” are good words of advice. The real question is whether or not one actually is present, and whether one is making the proper efforts to be present consistently.
The Fellowship seems to have softened its judgment regarding other paths to awakening. Many on this blog might dispute the “practical dimension” of other methods has been lost.
So all other groups are wrong or mistaken?
We are not making a statement against any other way or group. At the same time, a real spiritual school of awakening must be rare; for a person to relate rightly to the idea of awakening, he or she must consider it a rare phenomenon. Only in this way can he or she value awakening properly and make the necessary efforts to attain it. So rather than say that all other groups are wrong, we would say that, out of the vast number of groups available in our time, those that are real must be few in number.
If indeed “a real spiritual school of awakening must be rare”, who knows how rare they must be? Surely, in the vast sea of humanity, those who pursue “enlightenment” or “awakening” through any means are already a rare phenomena.
The simplest way, of course, to determine whether a group or discipline is giving you something is to measure the results. Are there any results? What are they? Am I achieving what I had aspired to? Many members have tried other methods before meeting the Fellowship. This is not uncommon.
Quite a while back, I asked “Howard” this “simple” question – how do you measure your results? S/He said they would get back to me on it.
“Measure the results.” The “simplest way”? What a great question for those who have spent 5, 10, 20 or 30 years in the Fellowship. Are you remembering yourself more now than you did years ago? (How do you measure this? How do you gauge “progress”?)
And if you cannot honestly answer “yes”, then how do you prove to yourself that having the perpetual “third force” of a school is actually necessary? Could you have not achieved similar results on your own (once you have verified your “sleep”, that is)?
Are you “achieving what (you) had aspired to?” (If you had aspired to awakening in this lifetime, then your hopes must have been dashed once the “truth” was revealed by Robert.)
I would like to hear how current members address such questions. (I have no intention of attacking your responses, as to this day I live with these questions.)
I wish this blog had existed when I was a member. Not only to be exposed to the revolting facts of the “teacher” but also to hear the current members interact with others. First it was threats, then ridicule, always dismissal. It has been very strange to see it written down and documented.
(btw, i finished a painting which has a wall collaged with snippets from this blog – hidden right in plain view because only blog readers would get it)
I have not posted at anyone’s request, just thought that the blog could use some balance, so that members, former members and future members do not think that the lack of response from current members is because they all agree with the statements made here.
Not pretending to speak for any number of current students at all, just my own opinions were given, I also believe very firmly that the more vocal former members here are not speaking for the majority of former students either. This is what has made this blog what it is–quite colorful.
With that said, I will get back into OUR cave. But as the Terminator said: “I’ll be back”
Many here have commented on and questioned the current members about their participation here relative to your exact thoughts.
We all know that contact with ex-members is cultishly considered to be poisonous and have wondered why they bother. (Howard claimed he’d been given an exploratory mission by the Fellowship. Siddiq claimed he was attempting to provide balance for any prospective member reading the board.)
Most of them have displayed rude, arrogant behavior and have, consistently, offered extremely insane representations. The elitist attitudes are abhorrent. The twisted thought processes are illustrative of cult behavior. They’ve displayed extreme negativity and, in that, confirmed the cult’s corruption.
Further, you have now confirmed that the elitist attitudes do exist and that members who have posted here are breaking cult rules and, of course, making y’all look pretty bad.
If there are prospective followers browsing this board, your post will be highly enlightening because it clearly illustrates the fact that the fellowship is a cult which requires members to censor themselves in order to obey a very strange pedophile.
Robert’s motive in creating rules that isolate members from contact with the world are efforts to further manipulate them in order to protect his financial interests by ensuring that no one is thinking or participating outside of his incredibly tiny box.
Your motive is to ensure that these strange members don’t continue to make the fellowship look as bad as it is, which they’ve been accomplishing with superb tenacity and great facility.
To Siddiq
You are very obedient. Perhaps they will also order you to consistently read the solicitations for money rather than block them. Anticipate it because they’ve found you here!
“If there were any confusions,
misgivings, or questions….they usually ask before
making choices……please consider “Hafiz, step
aside…It is you who are in the way.”
___________________
It’s very emotional for me to have started reading your first few paragraphs, then a profound shock at the end; I want to share this ’shock’ with you, because I think it will be useful, similar to my ‘Rumi post’ some days ago.
The Hafiz quote you quoted ~
That is the very exact quote Robert Burton used on a young man after he said ‘no’ to Robert’s wish to sodomize him.
He said, “Feelings? No, those are not yours; Hafiz said, ”
step aside (let me sodomize you)..It’s you Hafiz who are in the way.”
We are all saints and beggars in our disclosure of words.
286 Nick.S.
Oh Nick You have become the right arm of the fof law.
How could you?
You are bigger than that!
I have sat in your silver bullet with you and I respected you as a man.
On the strength of that alone I will attempt to do the impossible with you and ask you to do something very simple, next time you see “The Teacher” remember yourself intensely and just look at him very carefully.
I and many others would still be there if not for him.
Cant you see that its about one of his main weaknesses, keeping current students away from former ones, is dominance and his fear that his greed will be compromised in future.
Keep the sheep in the pen until slaughter, keep them away from people like me, dont let them bite of the poison apple of knowledge.
I know you once respected me, but then before you knew it I was gone through my own choice, to live a life that I could also respect myself in living because If I had stayed it would have been at the cost of my self respect and thats too high a price for any man to pay.
Dont pay it Nick!
You are unlucky in that you have never been the “object” of your “teachers” lust because If you had you would know what I know, undeniably.
There are friends in the neighbourhood who would embrace you If you left, do you believe that they have cut themselves of from all possibilities?
I know that you have burned your bridges in your past life and invested all where you are but is it worth selling your soul for?
Why have I bothered to post this?
Simply because despite your foibles I liked you you old fool. C y.
AFOOT and light-hearted, I take to the open road,
Healthy, free, the world before me,
The long brown path before me, leading wherever I choose.
As I am going to be moderated, I thought I would invite Walt Whitman to join me in the process.
Probably like everyone who is contributing to, or reading this blog – student or ex-student, this opening verse to “Song of the Open Road”, has at one time been an inspiration for our work – our life. Why? Because it is pregnant with latent possibility. Just reciting it can send a tingle of anticipation down your spine.
Yet when I think how far we have travelled in the intervening years, what a minefield that open road has proven to be.
Like this blog which winds its way through each day like an open road – vulnerable in its pristine state until it is impressed upon by a footprint or many.
And that is the beauty of this path – this blog. It is neutral – a tabula rasa. It is free for anyone to stamp their impression, in which ever way one chooses. There are those who will tell you not to – you yourself may hesitate out of fear of what might emerge from within you, but once you decide to step forth and take to the open road, you are the master of your destiny, wherever the brown path leads.
Many are travelling it now – some cover themselves for protection, others have thrown back their hoods to feel the warmth of the sun…
If you feel a need, you will. Enjoy it while it lasts!
******
Finally, I vowed if I were to re-contribute to this blog I would do so under my real name. So I throw back my hood.
My apologies to Nick. As I remember, you had more of a sense of humor than HC anyway, whomever HC is.
Siddiq #277:
If you truly understood and believed in the concept of multiple lifetimes and that each person is responsible for all their actions during this lifetime, “20 years later” means nothing. Your post lacks scale.
Where am I going with this? Where do you think? Robert enslaves his followers! That’s what it is like for me viewing the FOF 22 years later…sans the sentimentality that keeps you and others enslaved. I am not talking about shooting a horse with a broken leg here…it’s much bigger than that. It’s the whole kingdom.
No offense…you come across as one of the head slaves, who has had to crawl through shit to work your way to the top of the heap…and with conviction and sincerity you are advocating for his institution of spiritual slavery because you have the most to lose…Why should I listen to you, then? You are not the voice of balance. Where are the pro-FOF voices that are new in the school?
I am working from ethical principles and as my conscience dictates. You appear to be working from self-interest and as Robert dictates.
Old Fish in the Sea #285
“Guide us to mature.” ???
With all due respect, my friend, we would be better served discovering and nurturing our own inner guides than to seek or expect any mature guidance from a Fellowship of Fundamentalists.
“Hi Unoanimo #229 – I just wondered where you got this impression about GFOF site: “To me, the Greater Fellowship website needs to rethink their ‘Us and Them’ approach”.
Cathie, you wrote ~
“Please be advised that Greater Fellowship has a forum (”group”) called Rude Argument.
unoanimo, hello, you addressed me in post ~309 and uttered the following:
“Hummmmm.”
Is that the best you can do?
Your communication style is odd. Sometimes you seem to just enjoy the sound of your own words and clever phrases, and don’t care if anyone understands what you’re trying to express or not.
Then occasionally you just hum mysteriously.
Spit it out man, what is your point?
You don’t by any chance have a “dominance feature” do you?
Hello Ni_k Spa_ldi_g,
Thanks for your surprise entrance. I’m glad you read the blog. Is this an official task, or your own idea? Whatever, I hope you are open to feedback.
I have a few thoughts that you, Siddiq, Howard, GOlb, and others may find useful. I have put a “ quote “ sign to show where your statements begin, and a “ ∞ “ sign to show where my thoughts begin. And please grant me that these are thoughtful responses, not an automatic list of “opposite I’s”.
—————————————————————
Since my many efforts to find who they were had failed, using the Shiek as a private go-between off the blog itself, was the next step…….until seeing my nam_ today….
∞ Why are you making these many efforts, Nick? What business is it of yours? Or, is it your official business? Either way, what are you afraid of? C–Influence needs some little helpers?
My thoughts are these:
DEAR HOWARD, SIDDIQ, & GOlb:
Please consider not participating in the blog….
Paraphrased: Rodney Collin said that giving knowledge and attention to issues esoteric, when someone is not asking for them, violates the principles of esoteric transmission.
∞ But we are asking for them! If that has never been made clear enough in 5600 posts, I’ll put it formally now. I seek esoteric transmissions and understanding from all sources, including from past and PRESENT members of the Fellowship of Friends. Just because Burton says we are damned, lost, unworthy, or whatever—does not make it so (that’s just another unverifiable angle designed to inculcate fear in the followers). So, please consider continuing your participation. This includes you, Nick, we want your input!
Robert has asked not to have discussion amongst ourselves, about students who have left…This helps to “leave their space clean.”
∞ Let him ask away. But obeying him merely strengthens your buffers; it turns off the light and restores darkness. A sort of institutional lying and willful self-deception blatantly promoted by the leadership. Ask yourself, does this help me find out the truth, or hinder it?
Robert has also asked that we avoid “unnecessary” association with friends who have chosen to leave.
∞ Why not take a tiny step, and decide for yourself what is “unnecessary”. Burton’s generalized observations, requests and tasks help to turn the function of a true school (whose purpose is to encourage individuation and graduation of the students—based on personal transmission/instruction/initiation) on it’s head.
So, if you would consider that no one has been officially asked to participate on the blog except probably the legal people, and that considerable energy has gone from you, into the blog that is confrontational and provocative, maybe…. could you find it beneficial to stand down?
∞ By all means, consider this advice. But, also consider that firstly, how do you know that “no one has been officially asked…” is true, and secondly, it may be beneficial for you to keep on. For that matter, how do you know the post is actually from Nick Sp___ding? What authority does he have, if it is indeed him, and where does he get it from? Does he have any of his own, from his being, intrinsically? And why would it supercede what your conscience tells you?
Also, from the view that the blog may offer a doorway to a place of peace and healing for pain and suffering that you may consider real or imaginary, this is their process, not yours. Give them their space.
∞ True, and thank you for that emotional perception, but it is not the whole truth; there is space for both their process and yours to occur, and at the same time.
Generally, people consult with those they trust before making big decisions. If there were any confusions, misgivings, or questions….they usually ask before making choices……please consider “Hafiz, step aside…It is you who are in the way.”
∞ Sounds nice. But when I asked hard questions of “older students”, I was lied to by commission or omission, judged, reported to Burton, or given yet another ‘official angle’ that discouraged valid exploration and encouraged alignment with the institution—that is, sleep. This is useless or actively harmful for a genuine truth–seeker. Like KA, I wish I’d had something like this blog to consult.
The Hafiz quote is out of context. The FoF appears to specialize in quotes taken out of their original context, and put in a new context to suit official purposes; and, almost all are taken from dead authors who are not around to protest their misuse. In #14-306, Unoanimo gives a truly hideous example of this. The best interpretation I can put on this subject is that deliberate misuse is tantamount to a lie, and in Unianimo’s example, is high crime.
ALSO……Howard, Siddiq, and GOlb, If you feel that the blog is a neutral space for discourse, you may be naive…..
in addition to offering a doorway to peace and healing, it also seems to offer another doorway to a “War Room” where sincere and heartfelt plans for action are being made.
∞ If you meant, just (and only) neutral, the posters might be naïve. But, this blog can and has served as active, passive, and neutral force in a variety of triads. Find out and explore each for yourselves, and invite your friends. Have you learned anything, for yourself? If yes, then stay open that you may learn more! If, after all this effort on your parts, you can genuinely say you have learned nothing at all, then Nick may have a point.
This “War Room” stuff. Nick, whatever Abe may be promulgating about “conspiracies” and “cabals” (I’ll have to post some of the letters he sent around the time I left, one of these days), what you see on this blog is it. Just talk at this time.
I’d bet, and I’d appreciate your take on this, is that Burton and Abe, the Board and the “power possessors” are burning a lot more midnight oil than ‘we’ are on preparations for any ‘war’. But hey, ask around, if you don’t already know, and keep us informed! (Now I grant you, this blog is the ground for a “Battle of Belief Systems”—and the weapons are ideas, against which there is no defense.)
This truly being my first and last post……
∞ But, not so! Just a few minutes later, you posted a last word that you thought too important to forego. Think of it as another shock. Rather, open yourself to this idea—you have much to contribute; instead of lurking, join in whenever you feel you can serve others or your self, now and in the future. We’d appreciate having you here.
Love to all who wish…
∞ And much love to you, dear Nick!
P.S. The layout is an experiment. I thought I’d try some html code in here. If it turns out an unreadable disaster, forgive me, and I’ll post it again in ‘clear’. Ames
Yes, you are right. We have been guided enough. I must have had a momentary relapse. I don’t won’t them to guide me – but I don’t mind them trying.
But as thankful as I am that I left, I don’t like the us versus them attitude. I don’t like it when it comes from within the Fellowship and I also don’t like it when it comes from those of us that have left. We all were students. We all worked together. We all allowed ourselves to be deceived together. We all supported it for a while. Odds are I was recently friends with one or both of them. I am happy to encourage them to share their experience and to try to be as open and honest as they can be.
Siddiq, Howard and GOlb are not fundamentalist. Remember Be Careful or LOL. They had no hearts. Howard and Siddiq have hearts.
Oddly, I am even thankful to “Be Careful”. Were it not for those repulsive posts I might not have been motivated to post to the blog and I might not have left. Now I see that the Fellowship is always telling students to be careful and I am glad to be a bit more free from that. Howard and Siddiq have the courage to post and I appreciate that.
For me, although it’s a stretch, I would say that it’s not Nick; that’s it’s either HC or Siddiq’s conscience (or both) that has ‘nearly swallowed their tongues’ and seen the light, that posted that ‘blog beware’ sign, to give themselves a back door.
If it is ‘Nick’, then he has simply (so to speak) given us yet another example of cult-shackle rattling; and, personally, whenever I hear a ‘rattle’, I have three things in hand, a shovel for rattlesnakes, ‘baby food’, and ‘my hand in a glove’ in case it’s both.
There’s allot of Freud (not Buddha) going on in the Fellowship of Friends; its no coincidence that Robert Burton’s first ‘my-law abiding- trust me’ lie was built on the subject and constitutional aspect of chastity, which, being a lie, simply shows his deepest area of pain body identification and automatic-pain-propagation (making his ’school’ one of relative awakening, where transforming what the teacher puts forth is religious-duty, identification with ‘role’ as ‘I see you Robert, do you see me seeing you?’
This is beyond the inner-man, who the forefathers of ‘The Way’ (and mothers) point to; not to forget that it was a being in a female body that awakened Meher Baba; the Fellowship of Friends has little room for the ‘quiet sister’;
although, I have noticed that Robert Burton’s name is not being printed on event brochures as usual;
is this blog making/giving suggestive, better camouflage techniques for Burton and friends by stating the ‘not so obvious’? Reverse psychology? Seeming to pay more attention to the slaves than their first-force-master?
No, Robert, it will not work, whoever is reading this I am writing (or anyone on this blog, whose attempting to be sincere and balanced, past profundities and ‘higher instinctive center’ looks from you) will ‘pass it on’ (the grape vine is getting shorter and shorter by the day), take a look at the vineyard BTW. Your humilty-invisibility has been seen too many times and means nothing; particularly after witnessing ‘Nick’s’ soul-tumor-result, compliments of Robert Burton (and Nick).
Written above, “shows his deepest pain body identification and propagation;” marks, for me, that Robert Burton is ’still’ (and yes, I am using numbers for the sake of ‘certain scales reading this’) a man #4.
A man #5 glows a “certain something”, (and I don’t mean to sound ‘New Age’ here), this ‘glow’ is a kind of intentional suffering that when looked at by the yearning of another seeker (a seeker whose ‘doing the same’) can be felt;
I have looked at Robert Burton, face to face, many, many times: I see an opportunist, this is all… he’s surfing a wave that some other third force created, a third force that he does not ‘pay for’; if it seems he does, it is by the projected energy of his so called ’students’ individual payments being artificially attributed to his proximity, again, an opportunist.
__________________
Ames, you quoted from ‘Nick’ ~
“Also, from the view that the blog may offer a doorway to a place of peace and healing for pain and suffering that you may consider real or imaginary, this is their process, not yours. Give them their space.”
Another example of the defense of a School of Relative Awakening; yet, do you ‘Nick’, see that by posting here, that HC, Siddic and Golb are looking for a doorway to a place of peace and healing for pain and suffering that Robert Burton cannot keep to his own first line, that he has artificially made into ’second line’ and ‘third line’ for thousands; sounds like dominance, vanity, and greed to me.
Second to the aim of this blog; I want its radiations to fall upon its ‘first force’ and sink in; truly, Robert Burton, I pray for your soul, I pray for your letting go of all this that has defined you as ‘thou’ and ‘tho’…
_____________________________
Many fine posts lately, thanks to all for the good reading.
279 Graduates
In a word, brilliantly articulated (all right, 2 words). Thanks.
286 Ni_k Spa_ldi_g
Hey Ni_k, how are you? Long time no yak. Ni_k, I have very fond memories of our times together. (Even though you made me sleep on the floor in Old Westbury! haha) I always thought you had more talent as a standup comedian than for the 4way, but what do I know? I know we sometimes rubbed “sore spots” together, but I always admired your way of shaking it off with a smile. Hope you are well and always welcome contact.
It would be great if more FoF people would post here, not fewer, in my opinion. The blog is useful to many.
On FoF Website:
Should we call it the Fellowship of Divine Presence now? Nice history eradication project on the FoDP website, a little like the revisionist history texts of the Soviet era, nyet? Don’t like your history? Just wipe it out—bingo, a new church is born.
312 Ames
I dunno Ames, can you make the quote marks a little smaller? Like 1/2 the size???
Oh, Ni_k, I was curious about the “abandoning Shakespeare” rumor. Is it true? Curious about the reason for it, whether people are still “permitted” to read S. on their own, just really puzzled me and I thought you might know. Thanks.
Old Fish in the Sea:
Thanks for your post. Your voice is important here. Sure, I’m all for more open-minded discourse with anyone ‘out’ or still financially supporting the FOF, the trouble is, it’s not a trickle up kind of organization…it’s the other way. So in this case, even if we magically converted siddiq or ‘HC” to see the light, so to speak, it wouldn’t really matter to their spiritual master. I have issue that there are no viable checks and balances in this corrupt organization. Legally corporations, especially non-profit ones, are chartered to have checks and balances. The FOF is run as a dictatorship, that’s different. Dictatorship is not a stable form. They usually don’t end well and have a hard time carrying on unless the dictator has a son…
Nick, Ames and unoanimo:
Thanks for that. Who knows what would Hafiz say?
The intentional misuse of b-influence quotes to further one’s perversions…high crime as you say, Ames….sure feels like a ‘spiritual crime’ to me…yup, offending the spirit(s) of the quote…using it to abuse and manipulate someone in such a vulnerable state, your young ‘student’ follower (for goodness sake!) is a total desecration of the intent behind the poem!
By supporting the organization of the Fellowship of Friends, members are complicit in this play of crime. You pay, you play. There’s no middle ground, I am sorry to say.
You guys…its kinda like paying for an insane insurance policy that’s on acid…and the twisted nightmare is that you end up in servitude to freakin’ insurance agent…even having to pay to see or talk with him after you’ve signed your whole damn life off to him…and the trip just gets weirder and weirder…and you keep working harder and harder and paying more and more in hopes of building up some kind of credit in the ‘afterlife’ each time the light bulb of presence goes off in your head??? Which you realize way into it that it is a great deal for Robert, because he doesn’t have to pay out your policy until after you are dead…when you presumably…hook up with him or something?…in some other ‘limbo’ plane to get your credits?…or maybe he’s going to be there to vouch for you or something…but that’s starting to seem a little suspect since c-influence doesn’t appear to have a very high regard for him…cuz they kept showing him all those wrong ‘signs’ about everything…and you are really not sure one way or the other what’s going to happen in the end until it happens…
Well, sounds fishy to me…still does after 22 years.
…and you really don’t have anything in writing, either…?
Hi Unoanimo,
If inventing ‘Nick’ was HC’s or Siddiq’s escape route, then it would be fear, not conscience, that led them to that action…. a completely different triad.
That’s the way I see it, at least!
It’s hard to ignore your post and not see it as a confirmation, coming as it did on 7-7-07 – “octave complete?”
I actually came to this point for most of the same reasons you stated and stopped posting for a month or so earlier. I looked at coming back in the sense that it had a set time involved and it now appears to have played out. I think GOlb also sensed something a few days ago.
P.S. I don’t mind playing second fiddle to you in the humour department; who wouldn’t. But for the record I did bite my lip and let several good ones go by due to the wit exercise. Such is life.
Since my many efforts to find who they were had failed,
using the Shiek as a private go-between off the blog
itself, was the next step…….until seeing my nam_ today….
My thoughts are these:
DEAR HOWARD,SIDDIQ, & GOlb:
******************************
Translation of jack-of-hearts, soft-peddled cult-speak:
“Robert has had enough of this, I have been sent to inform you that we are actively trying to find out who you are. Stop posting now or you will be out of the school when we do figure it out.”
It’s hard to ignore your post and not see it as a confirmation, coming as it did on 7-7-07 – “octave complete?”
I actually came to this point for most of the same reasons you stated and stopped posting for a month or so earlier. I looked at coming back in the sense that it had a set time involved and it now appears to have played out. I think GOlb also sensed something a few days ago.
P.S. I don’t mind playing second fiddle to you in the humour department; who wouldn’t. But for the record I did bite my lip and let several good ones go by due to the wit exercise. Such is life.
There’s still one or two to address shortly.
HC
**************************
Your constitutionally guaranteed First Amendment right to speak your mind publicly has been revoked by the Fellowship of Friends because you are too incompetent to speak about and defend the ideals of your school. You have been told to shut up because, though you have enough drive-of-vanity, you do not possess the intellectual capacity not to make a fool out of yourself and thus reflect poorly on the general intelligence of your cult. Accept the photograph and relinquish this futile obsession to distinguish yourself as a man of higher reason and relativity.
Clue: “humour” spelled in the Canadian, British, Australian or even Indian variant. Not an American.
There should be established a formal organization with religious/church legal status, with officers/ministers, with the aim to unify the informal friendships developed through similar experiences into a coherent aim. Something with a vaguely spiritual purpose, but mainly es
Howard Carter, Siddiq, and company.
I have used lots of intellectual arguments in my posts so far.
Far simpler to put it this way: If becoming “conscious” means becoming like Robert Burton—screw that, I willingly join the damned!
If “higher forces” are external and behave as Burton claims they do (“humiliating him by requiring him to have sex with ‘his’ students” and so on—fuck them all!
If the price of “immortality”, is to squash my conscience—I’d rather roast!
And if the supposed advancement to the “higher possibilities in the next lifetime” is to behave like a shit in this one—up yours…
To all those who imagine that the ends, however noble, justify the means, however ignoble—I invite the lighting bolts from the petty gods you have created for yourselves.
Eloquently said Ames.
1 Ames Gilbert.
Again someone has put my thoughts into words for me.
Perhaps Rb is on Caligulas ladder. Cy.
Great ending to the last page (Charles R.), and great beginning to the next (Ames).
Wow Ames!
I too am getting mighty tired of listening to the intellectual crap that continually justifies anything Robert does as some kind of holy deed that simple folks like myself cannot understand.
My advice to these people would be to go sit under a tree, smell the roses and listen to your heart for awhile. There is no justification under the sun for what Robert has done and continues to do to naive, young men and women who come with their hearts and minds open trying to find their truths.
Charles R. Good to have you back! THANK YOU for your fine post quoting Jung. It bears repeating since the last thread became to large and unwieldy to navigate.
From Jung:
“When therefore a prophet appears at a moment’s notice, we would be better advised to contemplate a possible psychic disequilibrium.”
This is precisely what compels a person afflicted with narcissistic personality disorder to be driven by the need to compensate the disequilibrium with multiple sex partners, travel, constant supply of fine impressions and the vicious expunging of any dissent. These are called narcissistic tools or objects, which are de-humanizing to those caught in the afflicted person’s vortex.
The following quote from Jung was so exquisite in its portrayal of those still caught in the FOF matrix, that I reprinted it as a platform for the next thread.
“But besides the possibility of becoming a prophet, there is another alluring joy, subtler and apparently more legitimate: the joy of becoming a prophet’s disciple. This, for the vast majority of people, is an altogether ideal technique. Its advantages are: the odium dignitatis, the superhuman responsibility of the prophet, turns into the so much sweeter otium indignatis. The disciple is unworthy; modestly he sits at the Master’s feet and guards against having ideas of his own. Mental laziness becomes a virtue; one can at least bask in the sun of a semi divine being. He can enjoy the archaism and infantilism of his unconscious fantasies without loss to himself, for all responsibility is laid at the Master’s door. Through his deification of the Master, the disciple, apparently without noticing it, waxes in stature; more over, does he not possess the great truth – not from his own discovery, of course, but received straight from the Master’s hands? Naturally the disciples always stick together, not out of love, but for the very understandable purpose of effortlessly confirming their own convictions by engendering an air of collective agreement.”
Howard, read it and weep. Your ‘celestial morality’ is a delusion of grandeur.
Charles R,
I whole-heartedly agree with you about Jung. I speak as one who has been working over the past six years with a Jungian therapist. I would highly recommend Eddinger’s Ego and Archetype as a guide to a post-fellowship understanding of one’s psychological journey. Out of our own individual needs, we projected the Self onto Bob and now it’s time to recollect those projections.
You wouldn’t remember me, but we spent a pleasant afternoon walking around the National Gallery in D.C. I remember that at lunch you caused a raised eyebrow when you ordered a beer. You said something to the effect that we are in the business of changing our states and right now a beer will change my state.
Ames #1:
I think this is the same conclusion a lot of us have reached. Thanks for stating it.
Sheik posted his initial observations Sunday April 16, 2006
First comment on these observations: June 24, 2006
Part 1—First 300 comments, ending March 1, 2007
Part 2—Next 338 comments, ending March 11, total 668
Part 3—Next 333 comments, ending March 22, total 1007
Part 4—Next 312 comments, ending March 29, total 1313
Part 5—Next 391 comments, ending April 8, total 1704
Part 6—Next 408 comments, ending April 20, total 2112
Part 7—Next 397 comments, ending April 28, total 2509
Part 8—Next 453 comments, ending May 11, total 2962
Part 9—Next 452 comments, ending May 22, total 3414
Part 10—Next 534 comments, ending June 5 , total 3948
(change of format occurred here…
Part 11—Next 715, comments, ending June 13th, total 4663. Note: no moderation, numbering screws up, FoF spam attacks repelled!
Part 12—Next 647 comments, ending June 21st, total 5310
Part 13—Next 829 comments, ending July 3, total 6139
Thanks, appreciation and love to you all from Ames!
Special thanks to you, O Sheik, for all your hard work.
P.S. Since it looks like we contributed to the Sheik’s laptop giving up the ghost last weekend, remember to give something back. One way is the PayPal button!
I Don’t Care 13-737
Very well said
Charles R. 13-828
What more can one say?
Ames 14-1
Great Ames, from the heart
Haven’t been on for a while, so much living to do.
This TRUE story is for those who are still very attached and hang on to the idea of Robert Burton being a unique and conscious being. Here is the story that actually happened and was the final understanding and closure for me.
There we were, the two of us sitting in a charming little coffee shop in the Bay area about 6 months ago. Both of us had exited the FoF, just 5 months earlier after serving a 20+ year term. It was chilly outside, people bundled up, coming and going. The atmosphere was warm and friendly inside, the tables were full, and the constant hum of voices put a smile on my face – life expressing itself all around me. We were sitting at the entrance door (the only table available) watching the comings and goings.
I was halfway through a sentence when I noticed that my partner’s attention had straying in a fixed kind of way to a new arrival that was just entering. A finely dressed, handsome, youngish gentleman (Asaf type, with a broad smile) opened the door –and who should enter, but A LOOK-A-LIKE , a DUPLICATE TO ROBERT BURTON. We both became fixated! The older gentleman was finely turned out, with an overcoat that was of the finest imported cashmere, a pair of Italian shoes that probably ran into the multiple hundreds, an ebony cane with a finely carved ivory handle, an exquisitely trimmed white beard, a broad smile , and a posture that had a slight stoop that said ‘this is what humility looks like’.
The young man moved ahead to secure a chair for the RB Look-a-like, pulled it out for him, seated him and then moved back and forth between the order counter and him with espressos, and croissants. The two remained in the coffee shop for about 15 minutes. During that time the older gentleman would look around the room from time to time with ‘attention’, smile, and lean over to his younger acolyte and point out something of interest or to teach him something of great importance.
Then it was time for them to leave. As the older gentleman approached the door which was slightly ajar, he used his cane to gently but ‘intentionally’ push it closed (after all it was an incomplete octave, and someone had strayed out without realizing that folly of their ways). This in itself was even stranger, as the two where about to exit from the same door. My partner could no longer contain himself. He had to speak!
For purposes of this dialogue, we will call my Partner ‘K’ and myself ‘C’ and the older gentleman, the look-alike to Robert Burton as RB ².
K: “ That looks like a useful tool. Beautiful cane!’
RB ²: “ Thank you, yes it comes in handy’
K: “ If you don’t mind me asking – you remind me of an old acquaintance- where are you from?”
RB ²: “ From the ABSOLUTE”
K: “ Nice to meet you, and I am B.
C: “ Nice to meet you , I am C. What is your name?
RB ²: “ I am MANOUSH ” ( said with a long soft extended sound , more like Maaannnooossshhh., and accompanied by a broad smile).
K. “ Are you a teacher?’
RB ²: “ Yes I am” (he beamed , with a humble tilt of the head)
K. “ What do you teach”?
RB ²: Turns to his well dressed , handsome acolyte and says “ DEAR, please give them a card ”.
Acolyte fumbles in his wallet, and produces a card. Immediately under the name of the ‘school/institution !!!’ a statement in bright parentheses says
‘ the divine art of being present’.
Hands were extended in goodbye. Manoush clasps his hands together in ‘that humble, I respect you fashion accompanied by a slight dip of the head and shoulders,’. The acolyte leaps forward to hold the door open for his ‘ TEACHER – MANOUSH ’.
If anyone wants to switch, we have the card . It is duplicating universe, isn’t it ?
And a final quote from RB himself (daily card), August 11, 2006
“ When you wake up from imagination, you realize that you have been wasting your time” Love RB
By way of contribution: there has been a huge amount of scholarly research on the enneagram since Ichazo started teaching it in the late 60’s. It is one example of why IMO Gurdjieff’s concept of “esotericism” is obsolete. Two such researchers are Hudson and Riso; in their book “Personality Types” they have a lineage diagram. The origins are labelled Unknown, Babylon or the MiddleEast, cir. 2500BC. The next step is Pythagoras and the Neo-Platonists, Greece, 500-100 BC.
I don’t know what you mean by a “huge amount of scholarly research” because my attempts to discover anything about the nature of the enneagram indicate that those who work with the ideas presented by Ichazio and marketed as an “enneagram” of personality are meaningless in terms of the use of the enneagram.
A more likely source of further information is through the Gurdjieff tradition. Those who study Beelzebub and Bennet. Etc.
To Ames – 14-1
“If becoming “conscious” means becoming like Robert Burton—screw that, I willingly join the damned!”
Your role was especially written just for you; you couldn’t “become like Robert” if you dedicated your entire life to it.
And you couldn’t become “not like Ames” if you dedicated your entire life to it. But you can look “through” Ames’ eyes, and not with them. Better yet you could close your two eyes and see with the third one, to paraphrase Rumi.
And look without judgment, rage, not indignantly but with compassion, forgivness, humility. Knowing it is all written by Beings infinitely superior in intelligence and authority than any human being including REB.
When you rage against REB you are raging against them.
But don’t expect to be struck by lightning – that’s not their style. If you chose to value this life over the next one they will give you what you want – a good earthly life, nothing more, nothing less.
As far as stating “I willingly join the damned” everyone says that until the actual moment of joining.
“those who work with the ideas presented by Ichazio and marketed as an “enneagram” of personality are meaningless in terms of the use of the enneagram.”
I’m with you.
As I exchange messages and browse through the member pages in the Greater Fellowship Ning website, I am struck every day by the huge volume of exuberant, affirmative, loving energy fountaining out across the world via that website. So many old friends, new friends, lost but now found friends. All supportive, affirming each other’s essence and spiritual growth. It as as if all that loving energy that was somehow frozen inside while we were “in” is now breaking out in huge fountaining jets of warmth.
And I now see, this energy is the School. REB started something, but the real School is comprised of all the sincere, honest, loving friends that somehow flowed in and out of the Fellowship of Friends. It long ago ceased to have anything to do with RB’s teaching. The frauds, the con jobs, the scandals, the wounded essenses, the broken trust, the FoF Mafia, the Sequence, all the weird babble – all connected with a very psychically frail, wounded man.
WE are a School. In or Out, makes no difference. The dream was real, the utopia is there – it’s just not physically located anywhere, especially not in the property in Oregon House. Nor is it bound by the frailties, inconsistencies, weaknesses of any one person. And it is not even limited to those who actually ever joined the FoF.
It gives me great hope.
We smilingly refer to the GF site as “Son of Blog” (but without the negativity for now) – so thanks Sheik for being Dad here.
Wooooo What a ‘do’ !
There’s some Viking energy ah sail still!
_________________________________
Hello Sheik ~ (Whalerider, Vera.mente, A Former Student)
Hello Sheik ~ A note: maybe it was your down time and broken computer; my Post #793 and #795 are duplicates.
Also, something ‘weird’ occurred in that I sent those posts ((after)) the ones that it is now ((before)) (?) Strange.
To Whalerider, Vera.mente and A Former Student ~
I replied to you, though based upon the Twilight Zone sequence of how my post appeared before the posts that it nornally would appear after, you may have missed it.
It is to be found on (1)3 ~ #793 or #795 (take your pick, they’re simese twins).
____________________________
Hello Ames ~ (Post 792)
You wrote ~
“No wonder the great caliph Haroun al-Raschid had to slip out from time to time, disguised, into the city to get first–hand information about the condition of the citizens—and the state. Even his most trusted advisors and viziers, chosen from the best, serving without selfish motives, could not transmit information up or vision down without distortion, even acting from the best of motives. He had to go and obtain direct experiences himself..”
_____________________
Beautiful demonstration of real being in action; never stop dancing my friend and keep that wooden leg oiled and loaded, if you know what I mean.
_____________________
Joel ~ (Post 797)
Hello Joel,
It seems to me that your letter to Benjamin and the si-do that you revealed here on the blog by inviting others to ‘let out’ their little black books on your past are connected.
I have often found it incredibly ‘amazing’ how clear one’s inner world requisites lay themselves out to ‘really be’ one’s standards and principles when another being attempts to damage essence or has willy nilly transferred some corruption of their own into my ’solar’ pysche…
It happens less these days; I’ve trained myself to see the flip side of the ‘white surrender flag’ facing me and the ‘he’s over here, pointing arrow and bull’s eye’ on the other side;
so many possess this ‘flag’ in their pain body quest for adventure and addiction to the struggling self mind.
True friends…. Hummmm. My truest friends have been those who need themselves more than I, who give to me because ‘we’ ‘asked’ through silent intuitive ways, by sheer proximity and ’spontaneous combustion’;
so much of the ‘kind’ of friendship of the Fellowship of Friends is based on derives from the automatic four lower center conundrum of ‘drama formatory family values’ and still is…
No member of a ’school’, whose nucleus itself does not teach 360 degree trust and integrity can be trusted with un-guarded, raw, still getting its ‘bark’ essence, (among about another 60-70 classifications of inner world order ingredients);
for it is they who, subconsciously and often semi-consciously, imitate the criminal in charge of their developing psyches, i.e., the mirror reflects the silver, not the glass.
In that moment of ‘telling on you’, which even to children (it was felt that way in my childhood) is a kind of ‘crime’, Benjamin ‘was’ Robert Burton, acting out a kind of psychic possession, possessed with another’s entity’s dominance, i.e., the psychology of ‘good boy’…
Freud is all over the place at Isis; they have not even made it to Jung and Campbell yet… Let alone the understandings of the soul ‘mind’.
So, when Benjamin ‘did that to you’, try and see that it too was being done to him ‘24 hours a day’ by the form of the Fellowship of Friends; it was his sub-conscious ‘cry for help’…
Yet, strangely enough, in a School of Relative Awakening, 9 out of 10 students will deny this interpretation and buffer, saying (with two tongues in cheek), “No, I trust Robert Burton, that’s why I cannot be trusted, I must do the teacher’s will, I have no will, I cannot do.” (Yet they affirm nonetheless that they can do the teacher’s will…?)
Benjamin (like Siddiq and HC) are not completely lost; otherwise their names would not be on this blog, deep down this material we’re cranking out will stick and the grace of the end of earth-form will fall upon them, sooner or later (to whatever large or tiny degree, nonetheless, better a pin-hole of light than a coal miner’s curse), this is a fact (for me),
that nothing is lost, even in the face of cold hearted silliness, something gets through, where is goes, how it grows remains a mystery to me, yet, somehow I do sense the seeds are there; this is not in any way meant to lessen their self-responsible performance now, it simply helps me keep a owl’s peripheral on ‘things’, not as they think they are, rather, how time treats us to the immensity of change and circumstances we’d never dream occurring the way they do.
There are certain self-evident laws that are unwinding them, though they do not show it (may not even be awake that its happening without their permission, like someone starring into the sun going blind or drinking grain alcohol ‘pickling’ their liver or a tug on one’s ear that says (from the inside, something they’d never admit from the outside) like “Oh, yes, I believe that but cannot tell you I do.”
The very ‘fact’ that they (at least 2 of them) are ‘tossing love notes attached to bricks’ over to us in here is something not to be underestimated.
Yet, for me, blowing kisses in the wind while others are pissing in it too has got to stop, so, let the aluminum foil dances begin…
Ames post #1 above is a pretty traditional way to start the warring months of July and August; I’ve filled my shells with ‘rock salt’, just for taste, not mortal wounding, so to speak; even these days, those two sided flags keep on coming.
It is my sense that HC believes nothing he’s writing, and is playing the role of ‘third force antagonist’ in here; yet, as we know, this, strangely enough, is the collective voice of a School of Relative Awakening, where the opiate of their language and thoughts overly secrete more cerebral duty, cerebral lip smacking, more cerebral self calming, very little being that’s not connected to mental structures of affirming oneself over and over that “I am this way of applying my thoughts (which are acually not my thoughts), therefore I am.”
I still cannot conceive the utter ‘tasting of soil for a new vineyard at a nuclear fallout area’ that’s occurring in the Fellowship of Friends around the acquisition by some of the most infra-sexed crazed of Robert Burton’s boy’s of the Fellowship of Friends student’s daughters; in their hands they are being placed by the parents, no doubt HC is in there with his pom poms doing cart wheels and boucing about his grapefruits…
This travesty of the Fellowship of Friends upon their own children touches something deep in my heart, I cannot get a grip on it just yet, it feels like a tornado, a hurricane and Jupiter’s eye, all rolled up in one…or maybe its just July.
It’s a beautiful day and the finch do not care who I am and I love them deeply for this kind of treatment.
_________________________________
Love to you all.
11
HC you’re a fucking moron.
9 Laura – thanks for sending me back to I Don’t Care 13-737
Current members of the Fellowship of Friends – doesn’t this post send a chill up your spine?
“Did any of you think that I would be dissuaded by this silly blog? The more you say, the more resolute I become.
“The more you write, the less I will read. The more convincing you make your arguments, the more convinced I am to stay. The more serious your arguments, the less I take them seriously. Reason and logic mean nothing to me. I must keep to my aim.
“Your appeals to conscience fall on deaf ears. It is your conscience, not mine. When members are hurt, I do not care. When children of members are hurt and confused, I do not care. When you draw comparisons to other cults, I will ignore it. When you point to the abuse of power by the leader, I will ignore it. When you show concern for the sexual behavior of the leader, I will laugh. If you point to the wisdom and spirituality that can be found outside the confines of this group, I will call it fake. When you emphasize the presence of group think, I will call that group think. When you say we are not thinking for ourselves, I will be puzzled by what you mean. When you say open dialogue is discouraged and punished, I will change the subject.
“Your appeals to conscience fall on deaf ears. It is your conscience, not mine. When members are hurt, I do not care. When children of members are hurt and confused, I do not care. I will wait you out. You will move on to your lives, but I shall remain here because this is my life.
“But eventually I will also leave.
“Like you, I will wonder why I stayed, why I was not dissuaded, why I remained resolute, why I was convinced to stay, why logic and reason meant nothing to me, why I kept to my supposed aim, why your appeals meant nothing to my conscience, why I didn’t care about children being hurt, why I ignored comparisons to other cults, why I ignored the abuse of power by the leader, why I laughed off the leader’s sexual behavior, why I ignored the wisdom and spirituality found outside the group, why I didn’t recognize that I didn’t think for myself, why I changed the subject when someone pointed out the lack of open dialogue. So you see, I will be the same as many of you.
“I will leave.
“But right now, I will stay. Your appeals to conscience fall on deaf ears. It is your conscience, not mine. When members are hurt, I do not care. When children of members are hurt and confused, I do not care…”
13 Sharon,
Well felt and well said!
And big time thanks again, Sheik, for the part you play so well.
14
“Benjamin (like Siddiq and HC) are not completely lost; otherwise their names would not be on this blog, deep down this material we’re cranking out will stick and the grace of the end of earth-form will fall upon them”
“There are certain self-evident laws that are unwinding them, though they do not show it”
“The very ‘fact’ that they (at least 2 of them) are ‘tossing love notes attached to bricks’ over to us in here is something not to be underestimated.”
“It is my sense that HC believes nothing he’s writing, and is playing the role of ‘third force antagonist’ in here”
In relation to Siddiq…maybe, maybe not. Benjamin…I don’t know anything about his trip.
However, with HC, you are sadly naive, even after all these years, and you are wasting and misdirecting your precious “hope” He is a “severely damaged machine”, as we used to say. Possibly to the same degree as when he entered. I would even venture strongly that this is a criminal personality, possibly sociopathic. One needs to be able to discriminate to protect one’s “self”. Isn’t that one of the points of being here?
Bruce – 15
“11
HC you’re a fucking moron.”
Translation: Howard, stop making sense!
19
Sociopath and criminal.
“A sociopath is a person who has antisocial personality disorder. The term sociopath is no longer used to describe this disorder. The sociopath is now described as someone with antisocial personality disorder.
The main characteristic of a sociopath is a disregard for the rights of others. Sociopaths are also unable to conform to what society defines as a normal personality. Antisocial tendencies are a big part of the sociopath’s personality. This pattern usually comes into evidence around the age of 15. If it is not treated, it can develop into adulthood.
Visible symptoms include physical aggression and the inability to hold down a steady job. The sociopath also finds it hard to sustain relationships and shows a lack of regret in his or her actions. A major personality behavior trait is the violation of the rights of others. This can appear as a disregard for the physical or sexual wellbeing of another.”
hc (19), I once believed that you were getting paid or supported in some way to articulate the party line and somehow support the cause, whatever that might be — possibly trying to divert people’s attention from the criminal and unethical acts of Robert Burton.
Now I wonder. You are definitely not supporting that cause with your increasingly bizarre posts.
Please read, “We Were There” (16). Does cause even a tiny bit of doubt in you?
I’m guessing Bruce will say, “Uh, uh.” And I’m beginning to think the same.
Uh, uh.
See, I knew it.
I’m sorry, but “conversing” with “Howard Carter” is like talking to that “Magic 8 Ball”.
(I do however give “Howard” credit : he has many more “angles” hidden in his inky fluid.)
#15 Bruce
Man, you crack me up. I don’t know how many times I wanted to say those exact words but didn’t have the balls.
Hey Bruce ~
Thanks for your post: I’m keeping my (what you call “hope”, very abstract): please, re-read my post and see if the ‘naive-shoe’ still fits, it’s certainly not what I wished to share with you… As I stated, it’s a seed; disorders and severely damaged machines can be seen in many different ways.
I wonder when you draw such closed-ended visions or opinions of “damaged machines” whether or not you’ve ever ‘been inside one’ yourself?
I have experienced this possession of insanity and rigorous raw hate from others flowing through me, it having stayed and embedded itself throughout nearly every corner of my psyche through my teenage years and onwards; the transformation of the dense pain body connected to me has been one of my deepest tasks and I must admit to you, from personal experience, that no matter how insane a person looks, sounds, writes or pontificates, other forces still work very hard to keep ‘pin-holes’ occurring and one’s inner self, by some miraculous process called ‘becoming’ does sprout, if one is trying:
while, how one is trying and another is not, how trying to one is mimicking and insincere, while for the other it takes his or her spouses death or long agonizing death of themselves to shake them towards themselves, all this is mystery;
HC is stuck and as I said before, I really do not believe that he believes, so, it is very probable that he’s not even a damaged machine, just another Fellowship movie-star that’s feeding the blog and pushing buttons so to feed its pain body’s negative-reaction hungry, flip side of the darker side of the king of hearts vanity feature;
I sense he’s a smoke screen for Robert Burton, if not perhaps he’s Robert Burton himself… For the sake of true affirmative boomerang-ness, if anyone wants to address HC, I would suggest writing it thus ~
Dear Robert Burton, HC
(like a degree title, I’ll let you be creative with what the initials might stand for.)
Bruce, surely you do not think that we’re (by now) letting HC off the blog-hook, no my friend, its just another cast, in another spot, with the same worm that’s been curiously enduring multiple quick tosses here and there for thousands of ‘possible snags’, reeling in, casting out…
I am not so sure Bruce that we’ve got a ‘big one’, I’ve met ‘real’ damaged machines in my life, people that would put their boot heel across one’s pearly whites in a heart beat, drug dealers, motor cycle gang members, convicts of all sorts, dark dark people, HC does not qualify (to me) as one in the category of ‘past the point of no return’, yet, who knows, perhaps something else will ’snap’ or ‘nibble’ the other way, yes, there are incarnations down here that I would consider ‘past the point of no return’ so far as ‘this’ incarnation is concerned; maybe its just a big tractor tire caught by the under toe, maybe not, I would let out the line a bit, let it dance and roar down the rapids… there’s a lagoon at the end of all this blogging that no one can see, who knows what odd and beautiful skull caps will pop up once all this is transcended.
_________________________
Love to you all.
27
To each his own. Go for it.
22 2B
Now I wonder. You are definitely not supporting that cause with your increasingly bizarre posts.
Of course, the really twisted paranoid assessment of HC is that he/she/it is a former member posting here specifically to elicit all the intelligent responses we’ve had to the robotic mentations of the FoF.
JoelF
29
I suppose in the realm of all possibilities, that specific superimposition is possible somewhere/time in the multi-verse, quantum-physically speaking.
Bruce – 21
“A sociopath is a person who has antisocial personality disorder. The term sociopath is no longer used to describe this disorder. The sociopath is now described as someone with antisocial personality disorder.
The main characteristic of a sociopath is a disregard for the rights of others. Sociopaths are also unable to conform to what society defines as a normal personality. Antisocial tendencies are a big part of the sociopath’s personality. This pattern usually comes into evidence around the age of 15. If it is not treated, it can develop into adulthood.
Visible symptoms include physical aggression and the inability to hold down a steady job. The sociopath also finds it hard to sustain relationships and shows a lack of regret in his or her actions. A major personality behavior trait is the violation of the rights of others. This can appear as a disregard for the physical or sexual wellbeing of another.”
Translation: I live a different reality from Bruce’s.
Maybe bizzarro earth.
31 we agree on that one.
Howard,
Your worldview expressed in 14-11 demands the following (and much more) to be true:
• there are many lifetimes
• higher forces designed my role in ‘a play written in advance’ (yet you grant me the power of choosing to value this life over the next, and that higher forces will ‘give me what I want’!)
• persons ‘raging’ against Burton are raging against higher forces
• everyone who says, “I willingly join the damned” says that until the actual moment of joining
• that you know the ‘style’ of higher forces.
In a minor key:
• I am in a rage, or indignant, or looking without judgment, compassion, forgiveness or humility.
None of this is verifiable by you.
By all means continue to thrash around in Burton’s fantasy.
I prefer to try to live the one and only life I have verified as fully and as deeply as I can.
13/828 Charles R.
Charles, thanks for this terrific post. I also ran across this thread, on lightgate.net, under the Ken Wilber forums, as a topic thread called The charismatic narcissistic cult leader and his apologists. This also addresses the difficulty of speaking to people like Howard Carter, Siddiq, et.al. The post is by someone named Jim. (Disclosure: I deleted a few paragraphs and changed the word “existential” to “higher” for the sake of the audience.) Here’s more:
[begin quote]
Why do people fall under the spell of charismatic narcissistic cult leaders?
I’m posing this question without specifying any individuals, but my question is specific: I am not asking why people fall under the sway of beliefs and ideas. I am asking why people fall under the spell of charismatic narcissistic cult leaders.
It goes without saying, or should, that we would not even be able to address specific cases unless we first agreed that the charismatic cult leader in question was in fact narcissistic.
So let’s define these terms.
Charizesthai is Greek for favor or gift of divine origin, or charismata, “spiritual gifts.” Webster’s defines charisma as: “a spiritual power or personal quality that gives an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people.”
Max Weber defined charisma as “a certain quality of an individual personality by virtue of which he is considered extraordinary and treated as endowed with supernatural, superhuman, or at least specifically exceptional powers…[that] are regarded as of divine origin.”
Weber spoke of the “extraordinary” emotions of the charismatic, the ability to reach intense emotional depths and heights of ecstasy and euphoria, and a belief in his or her “calling” that arouses similar feelings in others, who become followers. The greater the intensity of the charismatic leader or teacher, the greater the intensity of his or her following. The greater the passion of the leader, the greater the passion of the followers.
Heinz Kohut analyzed and defined the narcissistic personality in great detail, but I will just mention a few of his key observations.
Two characteristics of the narcissistic personality that Kohut observed were grandiose self-confidence and an extraordinary lack of self-doubt.
People with narcissistic personalities typically have a need to define reality in their terms so as to be always right, and they typically refuse to accept criticisms or appear vulnerable.
People with narcissistic personalities can rarely admit to a gap in their knowledge.
Psychologist Len Oakes, whose focus is on the psychology of religion and issues related with new religious movements, comments on the adult narcissist:
By always being a little bit inside yet a little bit outside the world, he is well placed to diagnose its problems and devise solutions. His insights well seem to be profound truths to those who share his values and background. The talents he has developed in order to survive with his narcissistic worldview intact now give him an uncanny resonance with his times and with those who will become his followers. … Perhaps this really does give the prophet a “truth” that others lack.
Eventually the successful adult narcissist stands ready for the call to leadership. He fits in well with those who seek a new life or are in crisis. In return for their love and devotion, he leads them to the promised land, and in so doing he re-creates the ego-reflecting universe he knew as a child. The followers appreciate his vision and wisdom because he keeps his head about him in a crisis; he is above the fray (which is why narcissistic patients are so hard to treat – they can’t be reached).
Kohut says that the narcissist reacts to injuries to his worldview with “narcissistic rage.”
“Hence,” says Oakes, “he is fondest of the true believers who enthusiastically mirror his ego; those who don’t are resented.”
Many psychologists, including integral and/or transpersonal psychologists, believe that some cult leaders are both charismatic and narcissistic, and they believe that people who are particularly susceptible to such cult leaders are susceptible for particular psychopathological reasons.
As Oakes says, narcissists “can’t be reached,” and thus we find that apologists for charismatic narcissistic cult leaders often have an extraordinary lack of self-doubt, a need to define reality in their terms so as to be always right, can rarely admit to a gap in their knowledge, and are therefore beyond reach.
Personally, I think that it’s a more worthy effort to help people move beyond conventional levels into (a higher) level than it is to support charismatic movements at all. A charismatic teacher whose appeal is his charisma by definition appeals to people at conventional levels of development and not to people who are at the (higher) level. A charismatic teacher whose appeal is his charisma cannot help people move from the conventional level to the (higher) level. Someone who helps people break out of the conventional mindset that is prone to falling under the spell of charisma does far more for people than does someone who implicitly or explicitly encourages people to flock to charismatic cult leaders for spiritual guidance.
[end quote]
JoelF
Thanks Joel. Good one.
I think Vera-mente and I would like to be added to the CLASS-ACTION civil lawsuit. I dont’ know about Vera-mente but I would also like to see a criminal law suit against Benjamin the lawyer for FOF, Mr. Goldfinger, is it?
Hmmm… narcissistic personality… hmmm… remind you of any one(mind)?
Dear Howard,
In or out we all have to deal with the same things.
We have to deal with our own features. We have to deal with making a living and supporting ourselves. We have to deal with our laziness in certain areas.
We have to deal with the opportunities to experience what it means to be alive. We have to deal with the emptiness that presents itself from time to time.
When it comes down to the moment, the fence is imaginary. You are in and you have some nice moments. You also have moments of worry, moments where it is hard to do what you feel is right, moments where you judge others or become impatient. Moments where you doubt your own abilities. Moments of sadness. Moments of joy.
My life is not so different. I also have nice states, states that can not be taken from me, states independent of my position, my family, my friends and certainly from the Fellowship. States where I am glad to be alive in this very strange adventure.
In some ways, your life is not much different from mine. We both strive to have the best life we can, knowing that a good life is not only about doing and receiving but also about being and giving. We both have friends. We both have fine emotions.
So the fence is largely imaginary. Life is life. But as I see it here is the difference:
I thought while I was in that I was independent, that I was free, that I was honest. I now see clearly that I was not as free or independent or honest as I thought.
Now that I am out, I am no longer a child, supporting a man that misuses the resources allocated to him (his students and the efforts of his students). I no longer am bound by his principles but am establishing my own based on my judgment which I sincerely believe is better than his. (His judgment is clearly misguided).
Since I am no longer supporting Robert and his strange habits and ideas of right and wrong, I am much lighter. Since I am no longer trying to be a person that I am not, I am starting to learn what I really am. I feel much more free to be myself and I don’t have to twist my mind to try to justify my support of Robert. This has a more positive effect than you can imagine. What an incredible relief! We have carried a tremendous and unnecessary weight without knowing it.
I am thankful for what I learned but now it is time to refine my own relationship to what it means to be alive. I don’t think life is about meetings, receptions, working long hours to support a king and his harem – nor is about the self absorption that the sequence produces.
From my experience, higher states are more loving than that and actually more easily available than that. Identification is identification regardless of the nobility of the subject and dividing every moment into work or non-work, effort or non-effort, higher self or lower self, leads to identification. Robert’s teaching brings some enjoyable moments but on the whole often leads to self-deprecation and identification. In some cases it even leads to depression. I am not saying that this is always the case, but I think it is more often the case than any of us were willing to admit.
Life is more about being honest and simple. This frees up the higher centers. Supporting Robert and his odd ways is neither honest nor simple.
Life is about discovering what I am and letting go of the king of hearts facade. It is about developing a loving family. It is about learning to love, not only my friends but also myself and this amazing place and existence in which we find ourselves. It is difficult to do this while supporting a man that does not like most of life, and who teaches through his actions and exercises the value of self absorption.
I thought I needed the FOF to keep me away from my lower self. I was wrong. The Fellowship weight was causing me to retreat into my lower self and it was heavy. I am glad that I had the opportunity to learn this lesson before I was too old to appreciate it.
I am more free and this freedom provides energy to grow, freedom to experiment, freedom to love, freedom to fail and freedom to be. It provides emotional energy which frees me from an instinctive life.
So Howard, you can continue to be afraid, afraid of what might happen to you without all the third force, without Robert’s guidance and the guidance of what you imagine to be C influence. That is fine if that is what you want. But I would suggest that it might be time to experiment. Time to see if you are really so weak that you cannot do it for yourself. I suspect you and many other students are really quite strong individuals but you have allowed yourself to be demoralized, weakened and frightened. You have allowed yourself to need a father figure to tell you what to do and how to live.
You see, you cannot understand the weight you carry and its harmful effects until it is lifted, until you are free from it. I know. I was there and my only regret was that it took me so long to find my courage.
Luckily the Fellowship allows students to return if they find they really need the third force so it is possible to experiment. Interesting that of the 10,000 or so that have left, I guess less than 100 have returned.
“They must find it difficult.
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
Rather than truth as the authority.”
G. Massey. Egyptologist.
many wonderfull posts folks. Cy.
16/We were there
Awesome.
37/Arthur
>>Class action civil lawsuit
It’s a fantasy. An agreeable fantasy perhaps, but still a fantasy.
For Howard Carter, a genuine question:
Assuming you are the person referred to in the following linked news article, which is a big assumption, but one I am making here,
http://www.appeal-democrat.com/onset?id=6791&template=article.html ]
does your Fellowship membership better equip you to come to terms with that unfortunate event, which all can agree would be a major life changing event for anyone?
Of course with Abraham as the lawyer we can trust the explanation was true, right?
As has been remarked on prior pages, Mr. Highland’s driving has been noted as aggressive and irresponsible prior to the “accident” by other members at the time. Of course he was aware “in the moment” that any other action would have crushed him with the cement he was carrying, because we know he is such a fast and deep thinker.
Happy 4th.
http://www.kidskonnect.com/FourthofJuly/LadyLiberty/liberty_dl.htm
“Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, has done “whatever it can to fill the cups of justice” for families of the victims.
No family members of the victims attended the plea hearing and sentencing, which was scheduled on short notice. ”
Turns my stomach.
One more and I’m outta here:
That line about “fill the cups of justice” reminds me of a euphemism RB used to use in reference to the “gift” he received from his male students. He used to call it “drinking from their cup”.
The mental and psychic “load of cement” the man is carrying IS crushing him, I dare say.
Folks, just for your information, Howard C is not the student who was involved in a tragic accident, and I will add, this was apparently the type of accident that could have happened to anyone.
The Benjamin Y bashing is also completely inappropriate.
Both these students, as we all are, are not perfect, but are good and decent human beings.
Of course all of this is besides the point, nothing in these smallminded personal attacks reflect anything about the Fellowship or what it stands for. We are all still human beings I think.
Siddiq
About the negative press about the Sequence.
Of course it mostly comes from people who are not even trying to be present, but consider this: is there any activity that can be done better without presence?
“this was apparently the type of accident that could have happened to anyone.”
Yes, we saw that, verbatim, in the press release. What a coincidence.
29 Skeptical Optimist
I don’t think it is very twisted or paranoid. Almost every time I read one of his posts I think this is too much of a characature to be real. It is if some genius is taking all the false “esoteric” drivvel we have left behind like that black oily pool of hate and negativity left by the dying planet’s inhabitants in the old ‘Star Trek , The Next Generation’ episode.
IF that is true, my apologies to Daniel, but at this point there is little I would trust from you Siddiq. I lately find your statements and apologetics completely untrustworthy and in the similar vein to HC’s , just not as insane (yet).
51
If only!
Rodney Collin said that planet Earth is an infinitesimal point within a point. So how come the ego fills up the rest of starry space?
Oh, somebody was asking about the enneagram. I found for me a new book. While I was looking around the Nisagadatta website I found this, “The Tao of Chaos: Essence and the Enneagram (quantum consciousness, volumn 3, by Stephen H. Wolinsky, Ph.d.
He is a direct disciple of Nisargadatta.
Hey, no one needs to apologize; I am surely not doing so, not for my own posts, not for the FOF nor for RB. Bruce, I am not looking for you to trust me either. I am just stating my point of view to give a little balance to the blog. ( I do not know if for example Daniel and Benjamin are reading the blog, so they may not be there to put the matter straight).
You are right that I am going insane…slowly but surely!
“You are right that I am going insane…slowly but surely!”
Then maybe there’s hope for you.
Siddiq (49):
About the negative press about the Sequence.
Of course it mostly comes from people who are not even trying to be present…
How can you know that? You’re lying to yourself to make yourself feel superior.
…but consider this: is there any activity that can be done better without presence?
How about a good night’s sleep?
Seriously, I’d like to reply to your question. First, you are assuming that a manipulative technique like the Sequence can actually produce and prolong “presence.” Maybe so, maybe not; it’s still a technique, a form of control, something the mind is doing. As long as the mind has some practice, some technique it feels it can master (saying a mantra, watching the breath, etc.), it’s happy. But that isn’t spiritual awakening. That’s mind activity.
From Adyashanti’s book True Meditation:
“In True Meditation, we start from the foundation of letting everything be as it is. We are not moving toward the natural state [presence], or trying to create the natural state, we actually start at the natural state from the very beginning. This is what I discovered all those years ago when I started to let go of the meditator, the controller, when I sat down and simply allowed everything to be as it was. What I realized very quickly was that the peace and stillness I was trying to attain were already there. All I had to do was stop trying to attain them. All I had to do was sit down and allow my experience to be exactly as it was.”
….
“We cannot come upon the truth of our nature through manipulation. We cannot move beyond what I call the false identity, the egoic identity, by trying to change. We can only start to allow consciousness to wake up from its identification with thought and feeling, with body and mind and personality, by allowing ourselves to rest in the natural state from the very beginning.”
So while the Sequence (or any similar concentration technique) may have some temporary value in bringing your attention to the present, the technique too easily becomes an end in itself. A dead end.
Ah, the enigma Howard Carter! The fundamentalist we all love to hate or hate to love as the case may be. He is pure party line leading all the way to the top. His style of fixed and rigid thinking is why people kill each other over religious beliefs. There is virtually no other way to ‘get’ to people like them. They are THAT dedicated. They have crossed the line, sold their souls for the cause, and for them, there is no turning back.
Howard’s silence to my posts speaks volumes to me. Am I more of a ‘lost cause’ than Bruce or Cyclops, my esteemed brethren? Here’s what I think he is doing. He is baiting those who call him names to incite negativity from others in an effort to turn FOF members away from the truth. FOF members are VERY sensitive to negativity, are they not? What a perfect ploy to make FOF members weary of the blog! Notice how he backs off when bloggers go after each other!
Please, I beg you, don’t play into his insanity! If anyone here has an interest in actually helping others reading this blog still stuck in the FOF matrix to think for themselves, I recommend avoiding the emotional outbursts to his fundamentalism.
If you have an emotional response, go throw your pillow against the wall a few times instead. You will feel much better. That would be more appropriate. I am quite serious. Otherwise he will transform your negativity into more fundamentalisms, ad nauseam. Trust me there will be no end to it. Can’t you tell?
Look at his response to Ames post #1. “As far as stating “I willingly join the damned” everyone says that until the actual moment of joining.”
Does he speak from experience? Hell no, he speaks from fundamentalism! There is no argument there, only fear. Fear of the unknown is something we all share, and he uses it to reinforce the status quo.
I know it seems pointless, but confronting his warped thinking with reasonable responses is the best we can do, not to change him, that is impossible, but for the others sitting on the fence. Take the Gandhi approach, and you will expose his tyranny.
Gandhi said, “Eye for an eye makes two people blind!”
Here’s another one from Siddiq:
“About the negative press about the Sequence. Of course it mostly comes from people who are not even trying to be present, but consider this: is there any activity that can be done better without presence?”
Actually, Siddiq, first state is done better without presence if you want to get some rest. A good night’s rest is the best antidepressant I know.
And ‘trying’ to be present will only lead to failure. As Yoda said, “There is no ‘try’, there is only doing or not doing!” But that’s what keeps members stuck in the FOF matrix, too much ‘trying’ and not enough doing. That’s why you need the silly sequence.
“Instead of wine, the truck was carrying five tons of concrete curbing, which would have crushed Highland if he had slammed on the brakes, said Goldman.”
_______________________________
A fitting metaphor for the Fellowship of Friends and all that it is doing to keep students from slamming on their brakes to avoid having a head on collision with Robert Burton: hence, you must kill the third state to avoid it.
________________________________
No mention of the negligence of carrying five tons of inappropriate materials, the physics of such a load compared to what the truck is designed for, etc.; though you can be sure that it played a part in the settlement ~
Can’t wiseacre out of that one David, facts are facts, concrete is not wine (at least in the real world where there are no Christ’s turning wine into concrete so to save on the costs of building the Theatron)
~ no matter, yet another chapter in the Fellowship of Friends teaching payments going towards “Why be formatory?” Compliments of Robert Burton and Friends.
What, you say that the RVW will pay for the suit? Ha; certainly the dinosaurs know by now that Robert Burton gets proceeds from the winery sales as well, filtered and triple sifted through a myriad of credit cards and personal bank account, then given as cash ‘gifts’ (donations)…
Therefore, less money from the winery sales profits = more money from the students to pay for what RVW cannot be leeched of…
Yes, Bruce, the stomachs are turning and there’s only the pepto bismol background colors of the Galleria murals to assist them… Then again, there’s also little bottles sold at 600% mark up costs at Oregon House Grocery; students should be accustomed to that sort of math by now.
Hey David, way to go with that ’short notice’ thing… You’re ranking up there with Mary R. these days… I still love you as a friend though, no matter how silly your cerebral mercurial-contusion proves to be. Just, please try to remember this, that ignorance of the law is not the law, it is a state of essence, an innocent state, which I dare say your actions (while official) may prove to be spiritually damaging: everything is recorded, we unfold everything we’ve taken great lunatic care in folding, stashing away…
this ‘Away’ always finds us, it outlines our shadows, the produces the sound of our steps, it is the steam of our breath in December, it is the smoke at the end of a cigarette, it is the tear before and after a laughing fit, it is everything you’ve not yet asked the mirror and everything its been telling you since you’ve had ears to hear, though too busy to remember… pause my friend and remember what Buddha said ~
“The problem is, you think you have time.”
Time has you David; you, nor I can have it, ever…
Mercurials are not excluded from this Law.
________________________________
Love to you all.
May the schwartz be with you WhaleRider.
The principle representatives of the FoF on this blog are Siddiq and HC. Joel suggests HC is an invention by ex-students to stimulate debate, but he’s not – he’s a real, breathing person and he means what he says. For his honesty and sincerity I admire his approach more than Siddiq’s. Sure he’s two apples short of a picnic, but at least he’s passionate about what he believes.
Siddiq, on the other hand, is more like I was in the years before I left: confused and ambivalent, buffering intensely and pontificating in a phony manner about issues in which in reality he no longer believes.
If there really are 1500 people hitting on this blog every day, I assume many of them are confused students. So here’s my point: the only truthful way to remain in the FoF is to be like HC, believing everything you’re told and willing to fight for it to the death. The Siddiqs will be out before long. So if you’re a fence-sitter and you’re reading this, please try to be truthful with yourself – acknowledge that the main reason you stay is fear of the unknown, the Great Outside. It’s not too far from there to realising that there’s really nothing to be afraid of.
Bruce, my man, you said it all.
“…the danger is that very many people lack the necessary humour…” C. Jung
I’d rather have schwartz any day of the week.
Howard.
Yes, you did write “ultimate authority” as opposed to “absolute authority”. What is the difference in your world?
Teaching is not about having “ultimate authority” over any student. That is simple egoism. It is not teaching. It is commanding.
“Ultimately” any good teacher wishes for students to surpass his or her knowledge, encourages them to do so and assists them in finding the way with a tireless drive, patience and enormous generosity.
Your teacher is quite clear that you will never acquire an iota of his knowledge ever and spends most of his time alienated from you while spending your money.
I knew you’d be angry that I would deign to suggest that my own life and teaching experience could be spoken in the same breath with your teacher’s.
What you don’t understand is that I know (have verified) that he is no better than me and knows no more than I do about this mysterious life in any way shape or form. I don’t worship him or anyone and he demands that. My teaching & life experience is just as valid or invalid as his.
He is, however, a fellow educator, and I do find it fascinating to observe his incredibly unethical and poor pedagogical efforts.
I am a professor and have been attempting to learn to do this well for 15 years, continue that quest and have some success. Every day it is a challenge to discover the most effective way to offer my bit of knowledge so that my students can thrive.
I do know what does not work. Most certainly it is highly ineffective to tell students that they will never accomplish their goals no matter how much effort they expend. That is manipulative and extremely selfish and egoistical and clearly signifies that they believe they own knowledge that no one else is qualified to learn.
I have deep compassion for you. If I remember correctly, you have been a member of the school for 20 or 30 years. I can only imagine the fearful confusion our words here must engender.
Still, I know you can’t hear.
Perhaps that is your sentiment about any number of us here on this discussion board. The difference is that we’ve been where you are, but you’ve never been where we are. (Yes, yes…moon food.) We’ve all been in the position of being unable to hear the truth from “inferior” human beings when we were in the school.
Bravely read “The Guru Papers” or “Cults in our Midst”, to see if you can recognize the extraordinarily typical cult situation in which you are entangled. The Fellowship is a text book example of a cult in every way and you typify its product.
LL
to M (S?)
13/794 unoanimo
Say it ain’t so, Mari. Say it ain’t so.
dismayed
Cake
Laughing Love:
Thank you for your post. You have uncovered yet another layer of the deception. Robert calls himself the ‘teacher’. Yet, as you can tell from your being, he is no teacher. You are quite right; the highest wish of a true teacher such as you is for the student to surpass them. Only then will the teacher have done their job well. Robert’s narcissism will not allow that.
But the institutional manipulation (or group hypnosis) that we become subjected to in the FOF is that Robert wishes to be addressed as ‘the teacher’ and we obey, as we were taught to respectfully obey our teachers since grade school. We were set up due to our socially conditioned response to the word, ‘teacher’.
I am quite sure your university has strict rules and a code of ethics regarding teachers sleeping with students, do they not? So in fact, you cannot compare yourself to him, because he is not a teacher at all, nor a fellow educator. You are a qualified teacher with an ethos. He is a self-appointed spiritual dictator. You allow for creativity and individuality in your students, and even encourage it, he does not. You expect your students to grow and become independent; he expects dependency, revealing his co-dependency.
So it is even a misnomer to call those in his group, ‘students’. They are followers, and they will always be followers. The only thing he teaches is mindless obedience. That takes about five minutes to learn. The rest is servitude to his perverted desires and whims.
65 WhaleRider
” … it is even a misnomer to call those in his group, ‘students’. They are followers, and they will always be followers.”
_________________________
Followers. Precisely.
I was very sorry to learn of the accident. My heart goes out to Daniel – and to all of the others affected by this tragedy.
The others affected by the “tragedy” are dead.
63…very wonderful post. and all of the others. Thank you- everyone.
btw, does anyone know how I could contact a current fof member? I want to send a personal message to an old friend.
Dear Siddiq,
48, Give us proof.
B is after women, personal information.
Ask the LCS how close he was to children of students.
Read the letters from Kiran and Paola and ask his ex wife about his trip to Germany.
Ask Asaaf about the stop of the Bible keys.
Dear Siddiq, it is easy to say that facts are not true but please do some research before you speak. In the fellowship it is considered lying if you do not “verify” your reactions and observations.
Keeping observing…open your ears and eyes… , forgive yourself and others.
Thanks for this blog and for the birth of the son of the blog.
Dear Siddiq,
Sorry Siddiq, B IS READING THE BLOG, early am
The above information is verified. And I will not tell you how I know, as I do not jeopardize students identity. Siddiq take a good night sleep.
About D is HC I do not know…could be. Killing 3 people will be something investigated deeply. If Unanimo info is correct…silence will be my answer.
HC and S, here there are the same dozen girls repeating the same stuff again and again: why don’t try letting them by themselves for a week (or a month) and observe what happens?
(please you two no need to answer this.)
GOlb
Remember, Silence is an Answer….
Having never experienced pregnancy, I cannot say that I know what it is like. However, the process that I experience in writing to this Blog feels somewhat similar. For days, even years, there are “I’s” or understandings that float around in what some psychologists might call the subconscious, then suddenly they pop out and demand to take form.
Here is one such birth:
Approximately 20+ years ago, when Miles left the School, I, along with many others, was unexpectedly exposed to information which I was not prepared to digest. To put it briefly, Miles called Robert criminal, Robert called Miles criminal, and both were true! Personally, I was in an untenable position, seemingly forced to make a spiritual choice that I was unable to make. The psychological tension of that particular play went on for the good part of a year or longer. During that time, certain states and understandings became possible that were clearly not accessible in my normal, second state life. Essentially, living on the edge of a nervous breakdown helped me to choose Self-Remembering in what I perceived to be a School. Robert’s criminality towards individual students might be bad, but Miles’ departure from the vehicle of Self Remembering (the School) and his dissolution encouragement towards so many others seemed worse.
At that time, we would often speak of the baby and the bathwater analogy, i.e. “don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater”. Thus, I simply felt that Miles threw out the baby (Self Remembering) with the bathwater, whereas Robert, just made the bathwater a little dirty from time to time, but it was all transformable, wasn’t it? And for me, even at that time, somehow it was.
I can remember one particular experience from this that period. I had the luck (it was the play) to be singing with the Renaissance Chorus and Orchestra in a performance of the Messiah (which had always been a dear love of mine) at the Town Hall. It was one of the most remarkable experiences I think I have ever had. Opening my mouth up to sing released and transformed all that pent up nervous energy, such that I became the words that I was singing. Song after song, I sang the language of the Soul. And I knew it and I understood it. And it was Me, but a Me that included everyone else. And it was Truth. And it was All and Everything. Words now cannot even come close to describing that experience. But somehow I equally knew that everything I currently understood would not be available to me tomorrow or even in a few hours time, the memory, yes, but not it’s contents. The understanding was only available in the Present and when I myself was purely transparently existing in it. Afterwards, in the car, while parking to go up to the Lodge, I was still sizzling with so much Hydrogen 12, I can remembering making love to a male student towards whom I was not so attracted to in the first place. Wow. The baby was alive and well!
But now, 20+ years on, as a School environment for encouraging Self Remembering, what do we have? To my perception we have a Teacher who continually pollutes the bathwater to such an extent that the babies are growing up sick and deformed. The sex, the money, the power, are mere smoke screens that hide the true poverty of the situation. Witness the current nature of Robert’s teaching, a barren second state Sequence, promising so much more, if only one can do it often enough, and/or intensively enough. And maybe some of us can (push the Sequence that far), such that they find themselves suddenly existing in a world far more alive than they had ever supposed, as I did on the Town Hall stage so many years ago. Yet, as a Teacher himself, who is supposedly inhabiting these higher realms of Consciousness, there is no fresh inspiration coming from his own Being. There is creative wiseacring, to be sure, but true Conscious inspiration? I don’t hear it. His need to rely on the words of others keeps him from being able to react freshly to his Students in the Moment that he tells us he occupies so fully, with a Conscious Love towards us that he tells us he feels. It just may not be true.
Long term students who are still healthy, look around and consider that it may be time to get out of the bath. Younger students are too healty to notice the dirty bathwater. A few other vibrant individuals have found ways to keep their own bathwater relatively clean. Most hard and front liners however have become fixed and formatory in their need to protect the Grand Polluter, as stunted in their own spiritual growth as that of their Teacher. Would that it were not so, yet is.
Witness again the transformation of understanding that is occurring on this Blog about the true nature of Self Remembering itself, an understanding transformed through Advaita non duality. So that we finally understand that Self Rembering is not an end in itself, but rather a stage along the way towards Self Realization. Does Robert understand this? Do we have a Teacher that can speak of such regions? Thereby encouraging us to get past him in order to leap up to such places in ourselves? I don’t see it, I don’t hear it, would that I did.
Love,
Healthy Baby
…. and we will be back to “As the World Turns” after these messages. (or is it “General Hospital”?)
When I first heard about the famous 44 a student told me there were more.
I’m not sure of the quote but it goes something like this, ” a pygmy sees further standing on the shoulders of a giant”.
“All the valuable things, material, spiritual, and moral, which we receive from society can be traced back through countless generations to certain creative individuals”.
Albert Einstein
Is Robert Earl Burton the pygmy or the giant?
Dear Golb,
what a lovely idea. You guys should really be spending more time on all the important things in your life and let us rot here by ourselves for a while.
I was starting to wonder, why are you still hanging around this blog, reading so many worthless ‘I’s’? You are so right, we just keep repeating ourselves, we get super negative, and we don’t make any efforts to be less mechanical.
We are really just a dozen bad girls gossiping and looking for trouble…
Maybe not the right hydrogen to feed your evolution and evoke Divine Presence.
Much better to work wth the sequence!
It is very cold and lonely out here, but we’ll try to survive until you come back.
Of course, we will miss your pearls of wisdom, but we’ll try to keep each other entertained with our own wiseacreings.
See you in a month, Dear Golb, and may the schwartz be with you too!
73 Yesri baba
…and we will be back to “As the World Turns” after these messages. (or is it “General Hospital”?)
Yes, definitely a bit like a soap opera all of this. While we get a peak into RB’s bedroom, or wherever it is he does what he does, we’re also getting glimpses into the alleged habits of some of his followers — alleged porno addictions, group sex, promiscuity, alleged reckless driving habits, serious drinking problems, and so on.
Maybe not shocking. But I do have a question: Could it be that RB’s “behaviors” actually are soothing for all of us who remain in the Fellowship? In other words, if he does “this” all of the time, and he’s also conscious and a Man No. 7 and the conduit to Higher Forces, and “The Teacher”…
… then maybe — just maybe — my alcohol problems, my spousal abuse, my promiscuity, my destructive behavior — are not that bad?
Is this one of many reasons that we’ve had so much trouble listening to any criticism of this guy? Because if we did, we’d need to start facing our own mess? Our own flaws?
Anyway, happy 36th Anniversary everyone. To some of my friends there who undoubtedly are having a bbq to celebrate. May our time at Via Del Sol, Mt. Carmel, Renaissance, Apollo, Isis, truly not be wasted years.
From an old email…
“July 7, 2005: At the start of the July 4th dinner celebrating the 34th anniversary of the founding of Apollo, our Teacher gave a toast announcing that we are changing the name of Apollo to Isis. He had been considering a change for some time, but was unclear which of two names to use. Wayne and Corinne Mott told Robert that on their recent travel to Los Angeles to see the King Tut exhibit they passed a street named “Apollo” and right afterwards they came upon another street called “Isis”. This was sufficient for Robert to recognize this is indeed the name to use to best express the new being and direction of our School.
“Isis represents the nine of hearts, a forerunner of Mary mother of Christ (Steward) and also Work ‘I’ #1: Be Present. In the photograph below, she is shown on the left, whereas her sister, Nephthys, who represents Work ‘I’ #2: Prolong Presence, is shown on the right. Between the two female figures is that of Osiris-Re, who represents the Steward. The figure of Osiris-Re stands upon an Egyptian hieroglyphic symbol that means “Truth”. Truth represents the Thirty Work ‘I’s. The hands of Isis and Nephthys are positioned alongside Osiris-Re, supporting the Steward in the effort to assert and prolong presence.”
Old Fish In The Sea:
Thanks for your heartfelt post to Howard. We are simpatico, my friend. When two similar waves traveling from two different directions meet, no matter what their age, they merge in resonance and become greater. I am sustained and empowered as I know others newly freed are from reading about your path at the crossroad of this blog.
Happy Independence Day!
First of all, thanks for the great posts and happy Independence Day to everyone.
Since some of you mentioned enjoying the “Headless Way” website, I’d like to inform you that I found through a link on “Sarlo’s Guru Rating Service,” which contains a very long list of gurus, dead and alive, divided into cathegories and complete with short descriptions and links.
http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/Ratings.htm
Of course, one can totally disagree with Sarlo’s opinions and ratings, but it’s fun to see Gurdjieff, Nisargadatta, Adyashanti, Eckart Tolle and Krishnamurti all up there at the top (together with many others, including Osho; now, I’m not sure how I feel about Osho, but he sure had a wicked sense of humor, and you’ve got to love that space-age look).
Anyway, if you are in the mood for guru shopping, or just looking for some relativity, go check it out.
Laura
PS I almost forgot, you can find Robert too, unrated, under “Miscellaneous”. The info and links need some updating.
Comrade #77
Gee, when you posted your post about the sequence the garbage truck arrived just outside my home on the right side of the street symbolizing the garbage that Robert spews out about the sequence being right work of centers and somehow connected to Egypt, reminding me that in Cairo there are no garbage trucks, but a whole class of people who collect garbage and sell it to others, because the stewards of that city don’t have the compassion to spend their funds for the good of those living there, like at Isis where there is no health insurance, they spend money protecting their cash flow from the spectators who come to see the artifacts stolen from the graves of the Pharaohs who undoubtedly would be pissed at how their sacred names and symbols are commercialized and used by others not even remotely on their divine level to prostitute something that already exists any known as presence..
74
Thanks Baby.
WhaleRider (82): Yes, as I was reading that old email (79), I was trying to find at least one coherent idea in it… something, anything, that might make sense, that would be inspiring or enlightening and helpful, and that would help all of us strengthen our understanding. But nothing. Just words patched together — words that sounded like they signified something, but that signified nothing.
The question is, what’ll be the next name change, the next change in direction? What new art form? Will it be a new focus on the ancient esoteric knowledge of Central America, and the subsequent abandonment of all things Egypt? Or will it be a focus on the esoteric meanings of the Zodiac (actually someone sent out an email some time ago asking followers to help with research on the Zodiac, but nothing more was said about that to my knowledge).
Of course, this means I am “identified with the form of the school.” Ah, another very effective method of thought control. Any questions regarding the use of funds are “identification.”
One of the more ironic twists to the last couple of years in the fof was the “abandonment of Shakespeare.” As far as I know, he wasn’t removed from the list of 44 conscious beings, but Robert gave a decree that Shakespeare plays would be discontinued. All that after building a huge outdoor amphitheatre that presumably would be perfect for a play now and then. But I sense that RB thought that “the theater” might get out of his control. A good facility and many willing participants, and suddenly you have something that overshadows RB.
Meanwhile, high up on the hill, the statue of Karl Werner stands on a crumbling platform. Weeds are growing out of the cracks in the cement. Most of the wine tanks are removed. Disrepair. Abandonment.
Not what people imagined. But remember, that’s identification. Back to the Sequence please. Back to fundraising.
Hey, guys. There is another one of those retroactive posts that slipped through a small crack. Some of you might have missed it?
Check out Baby in the Bathwater #[74].
Nice post, Baby. Thanks
Comrade, I felt that same sadness when I heard that the beautiful vineyard is a shadow of its former self. And now the image of the crumbling ‘platform’ of Karl Werner…it is painful…soon the weeds growing out of the cement will allow the Earth to reclaim the land with new life. I highly recommend a trip to Yosemite or the Grand Canyon to recharge your spirit. The Earth in her infinite beauty will never shun you; your body is part of her, and she is your true divine Mother. All you need to do is place yourself there at Her breast, and She will nurture you back to life. She is is inexhaustible.
The theater was out of Robert’s control because the plays empowered the actors to express negativity without being identified. That’s dangerous to his flock! It demonstrates that people don’t ‘lose’ their work when they express those hydrogens, but are in fact cleansed and exalted. By repressing negative feelings, it puts a person on edge, and then they can be manipulated more easily. That’s how the military works. Aggression and hostility are cultivated in the underlings by the ‘insulated’ leaders of higher rank and then directed toward the ‘enemy’.
I wrote this fourteen years ago.
Walt Whitman had a vision of the “City of Friends”. The Fellowship of Friends tried to appeal to this vision. We responded with mighty efforts, so where did it go wrong? The answer to me is that the same vision can be manifested in different ways, here are two…
In patriarchal–hierarchical organizations/societies (those stifling the counter-stream) we find polarities; the teacher, unable to think, who takes pleasure in crippling or limiting the minds of his students; the mediocrity who takes pleasure in demolishing greatness; the eunuch who takes pleasure in the castration of all pleasure; the stagnant who takes pleasure in chaining the abilities of competitors; the neurotic who takes pleasure in diminishing the self-esteem of others; the incompetent who takes pleasure in defeating achievement; the whining sneak who takes pleasure in his own sense of importance by bearing tales to those he sees as important. In this society, each person avoids the eye of his neighbor; despises himself by despising those around him (especially those outside his own group), thinks in terms of dualities. He has friends only to reinforce his weaknesses and bear his complaints.
In creative organizations/societies (those practicing reciprocal maintenance) we find: the teacher who glories in the achievement of his students—whose greatest achievement is the student who surpasses him; the true individual who esteems, encourages, and prizes individuality above all else in others; the mystic who sees others only at their fullest potential—the God within them; the leader whose chief ambition is to replace himself with two others like himself; the businessman who hires the best, even if it means those better or more talented than he; the worker who does his job using all the energy, ability and gifts that he has—ambitious to progress. In this society, each person looks his neighbor in the eye, exchanging looks of vitality, joy for life, sense of common adventure, encouragement and self–worth. He thinks in terms of commonalities and connectedness. He has friends who bring out the best in him and who expect likewise.
(Thanks to Ayn Rand for the inspiration)
With love to all, ‘in’ and ‘out’,
Ames
The truth is pure, plain and simple. Like Austin Powers said, “I get it! I have bad teeth!”
For those interested, a moving visual representation of the Sequence is now online:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=p_Ocvnp6Bb8
Thanks, WhaleRider. Probably my words conveyed more sadness than I had intended, but there is a sadness to things when you think back on what we believed many years ago compared to the reality of the fof both then and now. And I’m sure that’s what you detected in me.
It’s embarassing for Robert if people think back on what the Fellowship “was about” for many years. This is one of the reasons that wikipedia editors have done everything they can to delete all references to the predictions of the earthquake in 1984, nuclear war in 2006, and the ark. The history of the group is partly what reveals the insanity of it.
Great idea about Yosemite and the Grand Canyon. Thanks again WR. And thanks to everyone for so many outstanding posts.
Veronicapoe: I love that! Thanks!
74 baby in the bathwater: “Witness again the transformation of understanding that is occurring on this Blog about the true nature of Self Remembering itself, an understanding transformed through Advaita non duality. So that we finally understand that Self Rembering is not an end in itself, but rather a stage along the way towards Self Realization. Does Robert understand this? Do we have a Teacher that can speak of such regions? Thereby encouraging us to get past him in order to leap up to such places in ourselves? I don’t see it, I don’t hear it, would that I did.”
Remember that CD that was circulating a while ago, in which some FoF students asked Adyashanti about self-remembering, teachers and schools? He replied with complete coherence and honesty, and very credibly. It would be interesting if Robert Burton could be asked his opinions about Advaita – what he thinks about the ideas that we don’t exist, that we are awareness, that we are already awake, and so on. I mean he’s supposed to be a spiritual teacher, right? So why is this so inconceivable? His world is now so utterly closed that he can’t conceive of any reality other than his own.
78 Comrade: excellent point. Helps to explain why FoF marriages are often such a mess.
86 Whalerider: Another reason for the abandonment of Shakespeare was simply that Robert didn’t like his plays, probably partly because he’s too thick to understand them. He started encouraging students to write plays based upon “conscious” themes, eg an embarrassingly awful version of the Conference of the Birds. Shakespeare’s works are the exact opposite of the current FoF; they burst forth full of life, joy, creativity, inclusiveness, pretty much everything!
“He started encouraging students to write plays based upon “conscious” themes”
No doubt with dialog that is more accessible to the teacher, like “See Robert spend… spend, spend spend”.
Perhaps:
“The play ’s the thing wherein I’ll catch the conscience of the king”. Hamlet
It is a crime for a human beeng to place himself in a position of a God and have another human beeng to be his subject. It is not a liberation, it is enslavement.
This puts all of of his “students”(subjects) in an enferior position (self-pity) out of which it is imposible to get out as long as one remains in this relationship of Student-Master.
It is very obvious after all these years many of us have experienced in the School that the Robert has no interest in our freedom. He is more interested in all the benefits he gets: sexual slaves, power, luxury, comfort, etc..
It is very easy to see the negative results of this corruption: the lack of common human
external consideration. A lot of students have given so much to Robert that they have no provided for they own basic needs.
Robert has no concern for this, however his personal desires and sick fantasies are fulfilled to extreme levels.
Best regards
To Ames Gilbert:
Thank you Ames
These were exactly my thoughts as well
It’s a bit dry here to let off fireworks, could catch the whole place ablaze like 1997, which might reinforce another predictions forthcoming, so, in here, in this mighty and beautiful amazon jungle (where they’re not logging) I set off a few full sky showers of falling stars, orange, red, blue, white…. Independence day is every day you’re not pretending to be an orphan in the Fellowship of Friends orphanage.
_________________
Hello Rhino Neal ~
You wrote ~
“For his honesty and sincerity I admire his approach more than Siddiq’s. Sure he’s two apples short of a picnic, but at least he’s passionate about what he believes.
Siddiq, on the other hand, is more like I was in the years before I left: confused and ambivalent, buffering intensely and pontificating in a phony manner about issues in which in reality he no longer believes.”
_______________________
Rhino, I would say that the one who’s closer to leaving (according to you) the Fellowship of Friends is the one whose ‘approach’ is more ‘honest and sincere’ (to me)…
What would you really want to hold true to your heart as “honest and sincere”, a crystallized mind-form as yourself based upon another’s ‘higher’ ‘lump of milk-crystal’ or the state of experiencing the unknown, of being insincere due to a real state (whether the participant acknowledges it in writing or not) of confusion and personal make-believe.
To me, the sandbox was never a place to stay too long, once there was more than two in there, things got a little bit, lets say, accidental. Perhaps there are bigger sandboxes; the ones I remember were about 4 feet by 4 feet.
So, as far as I have seen it in the Fellowship of Friends, there’s definitely a 3 foot by 3 foot one; meaning that such people like S & H have just enough room for themselves and one other (if they’re really careful),
this other is a friend; the trouble starts when Robert Burton wants to play too… here is the tough part.
I would say that 80% of the remaining students stay in because of this second person, not the third (second line becomes a kind of make believe third line)…
Many are staying for these ‘friends’ only and will do so or leave, as the mathematics start to sway in which ever fence-sides favor is current, due to the proximity of their friends position at the fence.
In their hearts, many rarely connect Robert Burton to their deeds and efforts, this has been a kind of inner ritual of wiseacring for 35+ years,
all along missing the corner of their own room, where avoiding Robert’s issues is a mirror of that which they allow to stay in that same corner, something that’s from themselves that is synonymous with Robert Burton…
They ‘baby’ his wounds by meticulously pecking away at the scab, selling the little bit’s as heirlooms and jewelry settings and keep it fresh and shinny, with a dash of salt from time to time to get a little ‘jolt’ to jump start their drone-ship.
It’s difficult to realize that there’s a sky other than the one in the house where your fishbowl sits; and once outside, still, there’s one above earth’s ground, i.e., the sky belonging to the planet itself, not us, so to speak.
After several rather ‘intense’ encounters this week with ’still in students’ it occurred to me that The Fellowship of Friends is not a family, it is an orphanage;
many ‘things’ sorta ‘tied themselves off and unraveled at the same time’ when this metaphor applied itself to Robert Burton’s ’school’…
In orphanages, there’s always a chance of someone being asked to leave, being adopted by another ‘family’, to go to another orphanage, abused by the headmaster or simply killing themselves for lack of a certain ‘automatic family tolerance’ (although some ‘real’ family’s do not have this either)…
Without going too far into the literal side of the metaphor, I simply sensed that its ‘general form’ fit the Fellowship of Friends much more than a family, where there is a certain ’sisterhood’ and ‘brotherhood’ working;
yet, every man is an island at Isis, except on Sundays and when students rally together while Robert Burton is the ‘third force’ (his actual crippled First Force & First Line), to buffer their ‘in the moment needs’ with his;
those in a school of relative awakening need to be needed, yet, the Holy Reconciling is missing: are there not those who love to be loved yet do not love the lover loving them? This is the story of Robert and Friends.
Rhino, I find it a bit odd that you can “admire” someone who at the same time you feel is “two apples short of a picnic”… I sense there’s a buffer holding these two unresolved impressions together as one…
HC’s posts are truly ‘everything else’ than that which is to be admired; just take a look a at few facts (particularly the one that Whalerider points out) ~
That HC constantly skirts around the ‘point blank’ questions that cannot be answered without a connection with his more ‘personal’ conscious conscience; he chooses only to reply to certain generalities in a language that’s about as passionate as a ballerina with a compound fracture…
get a grip on that huge battering ram of a horn that’s stationed on top of your snout; only an essence still in the sway of Robert Burton’s vulcan mind grip would see HC’s language and ’surgery for money’ tee-shirt as something to admire…
What I admire is that the Sheik has not barred his ‘act’ from the blog, nor have we; unlike some we know would if HC’s wiseacring was suddenly reversed in ‘you know whose’ direction.
______________________________
Hello Cake please ~
You wrote ~
“to M (S?)
13/794 unoanimo
Say it ain’t so, Mari. Say it ain’t so.
dismayed
Cake”
____________________
Oh, but it is my friend; M has some issues still with needing satellites, particularly girls who need to be satellites; these girls provide the perfect Archetypal role for M. and her ‘wanna be Robert’s sister’ dreamworld.
See, M. has an incredible freedom within her spontaneous spirit, she’s a bit wild (which if not doused with ‘dirty baby water’ would thrive and probably grow into one of those mythological awesome feminine characters like Athena or Isis (that’s ironic),
yet, at Isis, she’s always been on the fringes with Robert Burton, to me, mainly because she represents the consciously-free-to-choose-and-move-with-that-choice-woman, the wild, essence-open feminine,
something which makes Robert’s feminine-account-driven-pain body very nervous and out of a role; leaving him starring at his real work…
Many like her have found iron-clad ways of buffering this spontaneous impulse within themselves by digging their hole to China even more furiously, i.e., lunatic-identification with their roles…
Not to worry my friend, M’s little debut for Robert Burton will be short lived like the hundreds of others; it’s strange, yet there are those in between men and women who show up from time to time to do a little dance for Robert Burton and Friends, then disappear for another 3-4 months; yes, there are personal smoke screens at Isis as well as institutional ones.
___________________________
Hello ~ Baby in the bathwater
You wrote ~
“And maybe some of us can (push the Sequence that far), such that they find themselves suddenly existing in a world far more alive than they had ever supposed, as I did on the Town Hall stage so many years ago. Yet, as a Teacher himself, who is supposedly inhabiting these higher realms of Consciousness, there is no fresh inspiration coming from his own Being.”
________________________
Wow…now there’s some ’scale & relativity’… thank you for sharing your observations. Imagine that (so to speak), someone who inhabits higher realms, though has no fresh inspiration for those who he or she does not directly ‘touch’ or ‘call upon’ (to seem inspirational by igniting their features, not higher centers) to redirect their focus from themselves to his or herself.
I would say you’re spot on here, particularly with your writings ‘allude to-ness’ and ‘implications’…
And if you were to “push the Sequence that far..” you may end up like Janna, who, when telling Kevin B. (who apparently had yet to push it that far or admitted it), that she no longer needs ‘form’ to define herself, that she feels ‘awake’, needing nothing, no sequence, etc. ~
She was asked to leave the school;
in a real school she would be asked to teach, to share her experience, particularly with those like Mari R., who came into the Fellowship of Friends with certain ‘Daddy’s girl’ inclinations and have been exploited for it ever since.
Robert Burton plays peoples features and pain body receptors, he does not invest in their Higher Centers, nor does he have a backup plan for those who do ‘make it’…
He simply calls certain people’s mystical experiences, change in level of being, from form to formlessness, ‘the king of clubs’ or ‘imagination’…
Perhaps Robert Burton’s excuses for his ’students’ true level of being showing itself as something mechanical to himself and to be perceived so by others, including their friends, rather than individual consciousness becoming, is his own self-reflective-echo coming from within him, his own silliness titling others ’silly’.
____________________________
Hello Comrade ~
You wrote ~
“… then maybe — just maybe — my alcohol problems, my spousal abuse, my promiscuity, my destructive behavior — are not that bad?
Is this one of many reasons that we’ve had so much trouble listening to any criticism of this guy? Because if we did, we’d need to start facing our own mess? Our own flaws?”
_______________________
Thank you for your post and clean honesty…
Yes, its hard to see the crystal ball image belonging to the Fellowship of Friends due to all the sticky fingerprints upon its curved surface. It’s even tough for professional soothsayers in there, let alone the ‘wanna be’s’.
Your post explicitly shows the situation within every footprint follower of Robert Burton; it’s ok if he’s walking in a circle so long as the circle is big enough that their peripheral-conscience doesn’t get a glimpse of his equator-routine.
What I quoted from you above could serve as a real ‘cannon’ for real work, in a real school; to blow a hole in the facade of the Titanic, letting it fall as the one dimensional Goliath it is; a movie set construction for a school of relative awakening.
____________________________
You also wrote ~
“But I sense that RB thought that “the theater” might get out of his control. A good facility and many willing participants, and suddenly you have something that overshadows RB.”
_______________________
Yes, something that gets too close to resembling his farce is a bit too obvious and may conjure ‘footnote taking’;
for the most part Robert Burton never attended the theater productions, neither those of the Apollo Arts or the Lewis Carrol School, whose director is/was Mary R. BTW.
This was always ‘felt’ in the guts of the students as Robert Burton’s little reminder that ‘theater’ is beneath him and their aim to awaken; we won’t take into consideration that he did go to operas with the boys while traveling and theatrical ballet performances; nor will we take into consideration that it was originally invented by a conscious school as a tool; of which ballet was never, nope, only short ‘be’ for the Fellowships aim to awaken, not the now, now.
Yes, the theater octave, being ‘naturally’ very saturnine, left him out totally (thank you god),
not that Robert Burton doesn’t know anything about Narcissus Theater, yet this is a different kind of sandbox (12 inches by 12 inches) where one just stands and plays with different patterns of one’s own footprints in the sand and on the ‘mechanical’ butts of others, coming and going at Isis.
Robert Burton did attend a few in the Theatron, though very often would leave at intermission; just a little reminder that ‘even in the Theatron’, whatever ‘play’ that does not celebrate his ‘reflection’ is beneath him:
too bad Brian and Genia didn’t have the ‘i’ to put up a 30 foot by 80 foot portrait of Robert Burton as the backdrop for those performances, perhaps intermission would have been canceled altogether; otherwise, its the perfect backdoor for Robert and clan.
Yes, at ‘Apollo’ for Isis is simply too ‘humble’ now; theater was the ultimate symbol of a bigger picture than a ‘one-man-band’, later to be replaced with theme less ballet performances and ballet circus acts;
not to mention Robert Burton’s late night (up till 2am) after performance parties for the dancers and the fellowship elite, where he would be fawned over by the very overly compensated ballet dancers (Russians) and have his ‘Russian boys’ try and get them to join the school.
Christ! Robert, can’t you keep your hands to yourself?
“Well, no dear, see they’re not my hands, their actually 44+ pairs of hands here, what’s a guy to do?”
Ever corner of said ‘freedom’ at Isis has Robert Burton’s phone number on its wall.
Don’t forget to dial 911 as its prefix…
________________________
Love to you all.
Unoanimo (97), haven’t you noticed that crazy people who express themselves unselfconsciously are often more interesting than crazy people who pretend to be normal? At least you know where you stand with them. I had lunch accidentally with HC shortly before I left. The conversation was mostly about the fact that hydrogen warfare had not occurred in the previous week, despite RB’s prediction: whether the date might be revised and so on. This was definitely more entertaining than the usual chit-chat about the sequence and/or recent amazing discoveries in Egypt. It takes courage to write the nonsense HC writes here, and it’s useful for current FoFers to be reminded about what “good students” are supposed to believe. Long may he contribute!
Hello Rhino Neal ~
You asked me ~
“Unoanimo (97), haven’t you noticed that crazy people who express themselves unselfconsciously are often more interesting than crazy people who pretend to be normal?”
_________________
Ah, no, Rhino, I have yet to entertain the virus ‘wiseacring’ to party that hard upon the disco dance floor of my heart to be strobe-lighted enough to make a distinguishable ‘pair’ from what to me is one and the same.
Is ‘unselfconscious’ any different than ‘pretending to be normal’… I really don’t see the dividing line here(?)
I mean, yes, opossums and kangaroos are both marsupials, yet, just because you don’t see kangaroos hanging from tree limbs by their tails doesn’t make them any less ‘marsupial’ or am I missing something here?
__________________________________
Isis update (sorta) ~
Public announcement ~
“Dear Friends,
Over the weekend, we received a shock when a student’s home was broken into and valuable items were stolen.
Robert reminds us to lock our homes and our cars. He requests that we also try to be present to any unusual activity at other students’ homes. As he said, ‘we need to look out for each other’.
Love,
Helaine
For Isis Center Directors
“Eternal friendships are part of the greatness of schools.”
Love, Robert
Aelred of Rievaux: “This is true and eternal friendship, which begins in this life and is perfected in the next.””
____________________________________________
This speaks for itself.
____________________________
Love to you all.
Unoanimo (99): I haven’t got a clue what you’re trying to say. Any chance you could put it in simple English? I get the impression it might be interesting. yrs, RN
To Laughing Love – 64
Christ said “if you want to be perfect, give up everything you own and follow me”.
This is the “ultimate” surrender.
To Howard Carter,
Christ said “if you want to be perfect, give up everything you own and follow me”.
This proves that Christ had a wicked sense of humor and that you do not.
Love,
Ryan.
Howard Carter. post 101.
So, are you saying the cocksucking Burton is like Christ for Chrissakes ?
Hi guys,
A reminder about the Contact list.
If you wish to be included in the contact list AND get an invitation for Greater Fellowship community – please submit your info to
malaec@optonline.net
I am hoping to mail out the list as soon as I return from our Cape Cod vacations!
Most people provided their name, e-mail, phones, years in FOF. You can also list address, website, occupation if you wish. The list is made in Excel – simple spreadsheet.
Greater Fellowship online community is just too much fun! Over 300 members in about 3 weeks, and growing every day. Pictures, stories, videos, music, openness, discussion groups. No propaganda, no complaints, no anger – just our friendship, our desire to stay connected and find good old friends.
Works by invitation only and protected by password.
Anonymity is not encouraged – it is very open, positive site where hiding doesn’t seem to work.
So please send your info if you wish to participate in any of this to
Janna Makaeva
malaec@optonline.net
“… Spring comes and the grass grows by itself…”
Zenin Kushu
Howard Carter, Can you envision Jesus Christ getting his diciples to piss in his mouth and ram their fists up his anus as well as sucking there cocks every day ? Please answer the question directly.
Thankyou
Hey Rhino ~
You wrote ~
“Unoanimo (97), haven’t you noticed that crazy people who express themselves unselfconsciously are often more interesting than crazy people who pretend to be normal?”
“Unoanimo (99): I haven’t got a clue what you’re trying to say. Any chance you could put it in simple English? I get the impression it might be interesting. yrs, RN”
_________________________________
For me there’s no difference between someone who expresses themselves “unselfconsciously” and what you also term as “crazy people who pretend to be normal.”
What’s “normal” BTW?
____________________
l.t.y.a.
Howard #101, that’s what the disciples of Jim Jones did, they were indoctrinated to surrender everything they own including their bodies…they too didn’t ‘own’ their bodies either, Christ did. As an act of the same level of obedience and surrender that is frothing out of your mouth, the followers of Jim Jones staged a heinous play. Robert chooses to star in his own gay porno film.
Beware of the dark side, Howard. May the schwartz be with you.
Dear Howard Carter
I appreciate your postings. I like how you are keeping your line consistently and “in the kings”. I would sleep better if you were right and not the “rest of the blog”. All these “negative people”… But any time I think that for 38 years (and right now and will continue) RB is screwing the guys, my friends, damaging their essences, causing this never ending craze, FEAR. How he confuses them by lying to them, manipulating them, uses them and throws away – I can’t sleep anymore. I have a child and I don’t want anything bad to happen to him. I don’t want him to know about what is going on in this organization, were his mom belongs. I can hear the question of the child: “Why is Robert having sex with all these men?”
So, WHY? They don’t want it. They hate it. But they do it. Tonight is someone’s “visit time” after the dinner. And tomorrow. Can anyone, anything STOP THIS CRIME???
Fellowship of Friends C-Influence Update:
Viewer Beware: the contents of this video may result in instant cosmic awareness of the totality of the now, resulting in a possible shift of mental structure-ness and FoF fizzle.
Unoanimo #97 Thanks for your discourse about the demise of the theater octave. It jogged some memories. It reminded me that Alex Horn wrote plays and “his students both acted in them and were forced to sell tickets or he’d close his school”, is the way I heard it verbatim from one of Horn’s group. So stage plays might just have a certain ‘negative nostalgia’ for old Bob. The theater octave was ill-fated from the start.
Plus, stage plays require directors, who are usually good at directing people, and that would start to symbolize (or even become) a school within a school, a sun orbiting a sun, if you know what I mean. And that’s against the law. Since Robert enjoys ballets, eh? Maybe he sees himself more as choreographer of bodies and body parts… I hear he has become quite the choreographer behind the scenes.
Anyway, I have a copy of Alex Horn’s book of plays, “Theater of All Possibilities”, for anyone inclined to read it or ‘own’ it. The plays are not that good. There’s a Kennedy-conspiracy one, I recall. Gee, no photos of Robert acting in the plays, though. He was busy chasing boys backstage, I guess.
If anyone wants my copy of “Theater of All Possibilities”, let me know, and we’ll figure out a way for me to send it to you anonymously. Gratis.
It’s another step in my personal divestment plan of separating RB from The Fourth Way, as he already had long ago.
Can somebody inform us what happened with M.R, (who payed Rabia) and a performance for Robert with girls like A, S,R ?
Thanks for you time and energy
Dear 97 Unanimo
Woooh, woooh, wooh and thanks to all of you, who are still here. Many are not here and seemed to move on like Charley and others…understandable…
Thanks for the blog
Mole – 105
Yes.
Howard Carter.
Thanks.
To: Ames – 35
“Howard,
Your worldview expressed in 14-11 demands the following (and much more) to be true:
• there are many lifetimes”
It is written about in every major spiritual tradition, by all the major sages/prophets of those traditions.
“• higher forces designed my role in ‘a play written in advance’(yet you grant me the power of choosing to value this life over the next, and that higher forces will ‘give me what I want’!)
This is a difficult concept to grasp but one that is also found in every major tradition; Fate, Destiny, Karma, recurrence, reincarnation, etc. All these are held in balance by the concept of “Free Will”. It is an enigma; we are not meant to understand these things in their entirety. We can intuit them.
“• persons ‘raging’against Burton are raging against higher forces”
He is their creation.
“• everyone who says, “I willingly join the damned” says that until the actual moment of joining”
This is verifiable on many levels in life; people say they’ll do something willingly until it’s time to do it and then they change their tune.
“• that you know the ‘style’ of higher forces.”
Recent meeting quote – We can know Allah through Allah. We can know what’s other than Allah by the light of Allah.
“In a minor key:
• I am in a rage, or indignant, or looking without judgment, compassion, forgiveness or humility.
None of this is verifiable by you.”
I verify it simply by reading your posts.
(I said with judgment)
“By all means continue to thrash around in Burton’s fantasy.
I prefer to try to live the one and only life I have verified as fully and as deeply as I can.”
Knowing or believing “multiple lifetimes” does not hinder one in any way from living this life to its fullest.
“The only defense needed is knowledge. Knowledge defends you against every possible form of harm in existence.
The more knowledge you have, the less fear you have, the less pain you have, the less stress you feel, the less anguish you feel, and the less danger you experience of any form or sort.
Think of this very carefully now for this is very important: Where is there any limitation in the concept behind the word “knowledge”? Being that there is no limitation, what is the value of that word? Infinite. Can you conceive of how that one concept, that one meaning frees you from all limitation?
Use your sixth sense to conceive of how the word, the term, the meaning of knowledge can provide you with all that you could possibly ever need. If you think carefully you will begin to see glimpses of how this is true in its greatest possible form.”
Cassiopaean Transcripts October 22, 1994
Q: There are an awful lot of people who are being open and trusting and having faith who are getting zapped and knocked on their rears.
A: No. That is simply your perception. What you are failing to perceive is that these people are not really gathering knowledge. These people are stuck at some point in their pathway to progress and they are undergoing a hidden manifestation of what is referred to in your terms as obsession. Obsession is not knowledge, obsession is stagnation.
So, when one becomes obsessed, one actually closes off the absorption and the growth and the progress of soul development which comes with the gaining of true knowledge.
For when one becomes obsessed one deteriorates the protection, therefore one is open to problems, to tragedies, to all sorts of difficulties. Therefore one experiences same.
Cassiopaean Transcripts October 22, 1994
WHEN THE PROPHECY FAILS (former student and bla bla)
For religious groups there can be no greater disappointment than that which occurs after the failure of a major prophecy to materialize. The historical literature is replete with examples of groups who have predicted the end of the world and their reactions to failed prophecy. Stark (1996:137) asserts:
Other things being equal, failed prophecies are harmful for religious movements. Although prophesies may arouse a great deal of excitement and attract many new followers beforehand, the subsequent disappointment usually more than offsets these benefits.
His argument is that in some instances members may leave the group and the group finally disintegrates. In other cases, members can withstand this catastrophic event and the group continues. However, he qualifies this statement by asserting that new religious movements are likely to succeed to the extent that their doctrines are non-empirical. Religious movements need not deliver on their promises in this world — their most valuable rewards are obtained in a reality beyond inspection.
The standard paradigm for understanding failed prophecy is based on cognitive dissonance theory (Festinger, Reiken and Schachter 1956). Following their research on a flying saucer movement, Festinger and his colleagues argued that failure of prophecy resulted in intensification of belief and more enthusiastic proselytising by sect members. Proselytization, the attempt to convince outsiders of a belief system, was regarded as reducing cognitive dissonance. If more people adopt this belief it must after all be true. According to Festinger et al. (1956:3):
Man’s resourcefulness goes simply beyond protecting a belief. Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, but he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: What will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view.
Festinger argued that for such a process to occur there must be firm conviction; there must be public commitment to this conviction; the conviction must be amenable to unequivocal disconfirmation; such unequivocal disconfirmation must occur; and lastly, social support must be available to the believer subsequent to the disconfirmation. To reduce psychological dissonance, Festinger’s theory of cognitive dissonance predicts that the dissonance produced by disconfirming information will be reduced by adding new cognitions consonant with the set of cognitions most resistant to change.
This theory, however, has come under some criticism by scholars of religion, on both methodological and theoretical grounds. The validity of their original research has been questioned (Melton 1985; Van Fossen 1988; Bainbridge 1997). Van Fossen (1988) refers to Festinger as a “radically deficient guide” to studying the effects of failed prophecy, whose work is tainted by subjectivity and bias. Although concerns have been raised in relation to the possible stimulating effect on the group by Festinger’s researchers, there is no evidence that this in fact occurred (Batson and Ventis 1982).
Stone (2000) argues that studies on failed prophecy post-Festinger indicate that active proselytization is an uncommon occurrence. In most of the case studies discussed in his book Expecting Armageddon: Essential readings in failed prophecy, proselytization did not occur (Hardyck and Braden 1962; Balch, Farnsworth and Wilkins 1983). Similarly, Dawson (1999) argues that Festinger’s approach is too narrow and that increased proselytization is only one way of reducing dissonance and is by no means the most common response. Bader (1999:120) states quite categorically, “Nevertheless, no case study of a failed prophecy, his current research included, has provided support for the cognitive dissonance hypothesis.”
Thanks.
I have been in the 4th Way for over a decade and in FoF for a year 2004-2005. I left because I was bored or simply couldn’t feel the uniqueness so bestowed upon REB’s gullible, yet willing, students. REB’s physical body is his impediment. He’s not been able, lo these years, to comprehend–incoporate?–the physical presence into 4th Way teachings.
How, I often wonder, could anyone remain in his Scripted Fantasy for so long?
Veronicapoe,
Thank you for the wonderful Archive. I appreciate your surprises, and steady, sharing hand in this Blog. It is what it is, and that will be our history, supported by your efforts, and others.
I hope you will again be in my life, old friend.
Amanda
Howard, what’s up with firing off the ‘bullets’ in your last post?
That’s not a good sign…I warned you, Howard, beware of the dark side!
Well, thinking again … Veronicapoe, you ARE in my life again!
Hugs!
Former Student, Veronicapoe, Unoanimo, thank you for your thoughts regarding Class Action Lawsuit.
It does not seem easy to build…but if someone is willing and able to start it I will probably join it . Arthur is interested as well!
On the other hand there are plenty of crimes that could be brought to the attention of various authorities…
Sometimes I feel the desperation from some people here who beg to stop the insanity going on at Isis…
I too feel impatience, even though I have been removed from the direct influence of the fof and rb for a long time now.
I want a change! and hope all this writing here on this blog, the stories etc., will cause a change! The end of the fof under RB!
One scenario: organized revolution: the students rebel the King, file complaints , kings gets his long awaited modern “crucifixion” = a kick in the ass!
vera.mente:
Giving Robert “a kick in the ass!”…
With all the ‘fisting’ going on, your foot might get stuck!
(And that may not seem like a punishment either, he appears to enjoy that sort of thing.)
Solitary confinement would be the safest bet.
To WhaleRider – 119
“Howard, what’s up with firing off the ‘bullets’ in your last post?
That’s not a good sign…I warned you, Howard, beware of the dark side!”
The bullets are an Ames original, I was just ducking.
To Howard (and all others like you)—
Almost every statement you make (#14-115) shows that indeed you have not verified, for yourself, any of the points I made. That is fine, it has been obvious from your first post that the foundations of your worldview are imaginary, that is, based on faith (things unverifiable). To jabber on about what you believe the ‘major spiritual traditions’ to be expressing proves that you have not verified these subjects personally.
Howard, each of these traditions has a commonality. They postulate that one must have interpreters and interceders between you and God (or higher forces), in other words, a priest class (yes, even Buddhism has an authoritarian structure; note their devotion to lineage). Each of them demands faith. That is fine, but has nothing to do with the Fourth Way, which demands that you verify everything for yourself. You yourself have abandoned the Fourth Way and taken up the way of religion, which requires faith in the priest class. Good for you, but don’t pretend otherwise. In your Church of Robert Burton, the high priest has explicitly claimed that he is vital to your future spiritual welfare, and that any progress is due to his intercession. And it is noticeable that the self–appointed intermediaries do quite well for themselves in this lifetime, accumulating power, authority and often (and especially in the case of Burton) wealth. Why not, it’s a good gig, if you’re into that.
I have not verified that there are future lifetimes, so to put any energy at all into that idea, to alter my present life one jot to accommodate such a possibility, especially as some kind of spiritual ‘insurance policy’, as you and your co-religionists do, is completely wrong work for me, not to mention a waste of my time, the only capital I truly have. I studied the Fourth Way precisely because I could not make all the ‘leaps of faith’ required by the ordinary religions. You did not; from the beginning you must have mistaken the Fourth Way for some kind of new religion, because otherwise a simple comparison with your aims when you joined and the aims you have now would show you that you have deviated so much that you are now traveling in exactly the opposite direction. That’s fine too, but you have to be honest with yourself.
As for you being able to judge my state from the tone of my posts, it may interest you to know that more than three-quarters of the posts I have made so far are actually material that I wrote between seventeen and fourteen years ago. I post them because I believe they still make sense in the present context, and I think they might be useful to some who are at the same stage as I was then. That, by the way, includes the first post on this page. So much for your observations or your intuition.
You say that knowing or believing in future lifetimes doesn’t hinder you from living this life to the fullest. That may be true from a narrow perspective, but is sure as heck alters the tone of this life, right down to the bedrock. For example, you must deem yourself unworthy in some way in this life if you believe some theoretical perfection is to be found in the next lifetime (or the one after that, or whatever). That colors your whole present life, my friend. If you decide as a matter of faith that because Burton has said some achievement is impossible in this lifetime, you are affecting your whole present life, and have cut yourself off from a range of possibilities. And so on.
Burton is restricting your freedom in every direction; you may be happy with that, you may enjoy having your life managed, but the extra will you imagined might be possible (in a previous post) will remain out of reach, and also all the territory beyond the fence Burton has created for you. Above all, it places you in the peculiar situation where you simultaneously work very hard, yet are easily satisfied. You work in areas determined important by Burton, at things determined by Burton, for as long as Burton wants. At the same time, because whatever efforts you make are never enough in this lifetime (Burton says you’ll need the next lifetime or more to achieve your aims), you remain satisfied that the direction and amount of your efforts are enough to get you to the next lifetime, and even, and this is important, Howard, that these “efforts” are necessary at all.
Howard, I got off your brand of treadmill because I did see that under Burton’s tutelage my aims had changed, were becoming Burton’s aims, and thus were becoming the opposite of those I had when I joined. I have also come to see not only is it a case that I can choose another treadmill—they are all similar, Burton’s is just another model, though built crookedly, but that treadmills are not necessary. I don’t expect to convince you, how could I, you have not traveled my road. But I can point out that you are not in the same institution you thought you were when you joined, not going along the path the guide you hired promised you, and that maybe one day you’ll come to see that, and why it is important.
So, may good luck attend you in all your endeavors,
Ames
#115 Howard Carter
“Recent meeting quote – We can know Allah through Allah. We can know what’s other than Allah by the light of Allah”.
It’s interesting that the FOF seems to be dabbling in various spiritual traditions and conceptual frameworks. They seem to be trying to lure any and all religious believers into the fold. I guess Muslims are being courted now.
Rourke M. was a longtime member of the Fellowship of Friends when he passed away in 1993.
Rourke joined the group at a young age, traveled to Europe, studied art and literature, asked sincere questions, attended meetings, sat with friends at dinner, reflected on the concepts presented to him, and sought understanding. He immersed himself in the ideas of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. He listened intently. He contemplated the contradictions that he found within the Fellowship, struggled to make sense of what he was experiencing, and — like all of us — examined his own weaknesses and possibilities. He loved watching sports, enjoyed a good game of pool at the bar, and despised any type of pretense. He was fun-loving, passionate, and spoke his mind out loud with his closest friends.
Rourke grew up in the Bay Area, studied English at Cal-Berkeley, and used his writing skills to land a career in high tech. In 1983, in his late 20s, he kept a journal and stored it hard-copy on a computer printout. He left us 10 years later — on the eve of the Internet revolution, and a few years before the word “blog” would become a household word.
The following are a few excerpts from his journal:
…………………………………………………………………………..
July 7, 1983
from a letter to Miles B…
You seemed to suggest last Wednesday that people would gain by reconsidering why they are trying to “work on themselves” or are in the school, and if what they are doing is something they could do outside the school, and maybe better. That is a very honest question.
I’ve never had any real doubts that the school is a conscious teaching; it was self-evident almost from the outset and has continued to be so. At the same time, at different times and at varying degrees, I’ve felt disjointed from the school, and unable to know where I fit in or what I could contribute.
…………………………………………………………………………
The past 12 months have been fairly disappointing in that I simply have not been able to determine what I want, and I’ve always connected this with what I understand higher forces want of me. Before this time, I was able to see how working on personal weaknesses strengthened my connections with other students, the school, and higher forces, and was therefore encouraged to do so. But that understanding is no longer as prevalent, and lately I’ve wondered if references to higher forces are presumptuous, or impractical, or just wrong.
…………………………………………………………………………
It seems like conscience must be connected with personal aim, and I’ve wondered if it may not be that I am experiencing this aimlessness primarily because I have not done things which my conscience has suggested, and have therefore quieted or deadened it.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
August 5, 1983
My state improved during the walk. I reached the point where I realized I didn’t need to be negative. I began to remember the way I felt in Portland and Carmel, when I was more sure of myself. That gave me some comfort. Then I thought about a recent statement from Robert — that we would basically need to try to keep breathing for the next three years, that we wouldn’t experience fine states [possibly in reference to the predicted depression of 1984 – 1987]. Remembering that caused my state to drop. It made me think why I follow Robert. Obviously he knows more than me. I can see that from his angles in the recent journal and other things he has said. On the other hand, he says some things which I cannot follow without becoming identified and losing hope. This is a problem, because I feel like I am going against him if I disagree with him. Furthermore, I feel like I am doing something wrong if I exist for myself rather than for him.
I want more to exist for what I know is right, rather than for a man. But that possibility is not a guarantee. I want to serve higher forces, to be sure, but it cannot always be on the basis of what someone else has told me. This sounds childish as I write it, but it will become large in the coming years. Eventually I have to exist on my own understanding of right and wrong.
I can see the effect of not doing so. It is eating me up, literally. If I compare my state now with the one I experienced before I inner-considered Robert, it is obvious that it is much worse now. Interesting that I wrote inner-considering so lightly. That is exactly what it was.
Is it right to look up to someone? I am beginning to think not. I think a person should only look up to God and not to any other man. Certainly it is not incorrect to admire greatness, but how so? It is very harmful to believe someone simply because he says something.
What do higher forces want from me is the question. And what do I want from myself. What I want from myself is to not live any lies — of any kind. I appreciate everything Robert has done, but somehow I feel he wants something from me — like he wants me to like, respect, or adore him. Rather, my ‘I’s want me to place him above me, to limit myself somehow. They want to exist for him, rather than for myself.
It must return to this my friend. You are born to this planet. You live among people. You try your hardest to determine what is right. You cannot know what is true about another person. It is blatantly obvious that the school is a real school, blatantly. This much you can know.
But you must pose this question to yourself. Can you expect to evolve and hold on to inner-considering, or, in other words, can you evolve if you compromise yourself based on what you experience being the reality that other people experience. You must live in the reality that you feel is closest to reality, even if this means not being understood.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
August 11, 1983
Consider what it would be to be around someone who did not judge, was not constantly trying to prove that he was better than you.
But this is what occurs. And, to survive, one must either become adept at the same thing or learn how not to believe other people’s lies and remain true to oneself. Being true to oneself is the beginning of sanity.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
August 18, 1983
People are liars, constant liars. T. and R. lied through their teeth during the prospective student meeting, and the worst thing is that they had no conception that they lied. This is true with everyone.
If it happens that everyone continues to lie in this way, we are lost. Someone must tell the truth. Somehow I must regain my original will and clean things up. This is possible. But how to do it.
To Whom It May Concern:
I can feel your anguish as I am sure you can feel mine regarding the seemingly unrestricted and endless practice of Robert Burton’s ‘activities’ along with the immunity that his followers grant him.
The question arises, is there a way to stop him? (I am a parent, too.) Are we done whining and ready to give this deep thought or better yet, take action?
I believe our collective efforts on this blog revealing Robert’s true nature will succeed in ‘poisoning the pool’ of future potential victims and restrict his access to using young, naïve, new followers as his sexual playthings or narcissistic objects and tools. This will in the very least, limit the damage he may cause to others. The blog is a brilliant first step as long as it can be kept up and running, so everyone please use the Paypal button and donate at least once, if not regularly. I have already.
IMO, a lawsuit would feasible and possible only after some sort of sustained public action was taken to display our power as a group. These techniques are not rocket science, and precedents for grassroots uprisings like this are well established. This posting is the best I can do to further that aim.
The next step will be to establish a group of dedicated individuals, preferably in Oregon House, to secretly meet and focus thought on taking public action, in other words, form a focus group. The thoughts and strategies of this group must NOT be posted on this blog, or the FOF will be take counter measures. Another means of communication must be established.
The focus group must be able to track and make public Robert’s movements. This surveillance will create more internal pressure on the FOF and contribute to a less than favorable atmosphere for the entrenched and financially dependent followers to remain in denial.
The focus group must then determine what the threshold number of members are that would effectively create a negative cash flow, and work to diminish the FOF’s membership to that number, causing Robert to use his accumulated personal wealth to keep the FOF afloat. If the property were foreclosed on, that would be excellent. Ex-members, if interested, could possibly form a non-profit foundation dedicated to healing the wounds inflicted on us all and make the Vineyard open to others damaged by cults as a retreat.
Once public action is taken, this will empower others to step forward. Remember that our strength is in our numbers. There are 11,000 of us and apparently only 1,500 left of them. That public action must be on an international level as well. If Robert’s movements abroad were restricted, that would further the aim of limiting the damage he causes.
Once our public protest and outrage becomes intense and consistent enough to hit mainstream, then we will attract the necessary means and support to take legal action.
And that will be the end of the Fellowship of Friends.
Unoanimo, on a different topic, can you tell us why you remain in the FoF? Your postings indicate you’re not very impressed by it. thanks, RN
#124 Ames
I don’t think fof even pretends to be a 4th way school anymore, doesn’t value personal verification….. and besides, awakening in some vague future ‘life’ is such an easy/comfortable way out of having to awaken now.
btw, good post! well thought out.
Is is clear the chances of some type of revolt are nil.
Whalerider “There are 11,000 of us and apparently only 1,500 left of them.” You are wrong of course. There are a few hundred upset former members (not all upset about the same thing, most not even posting, only a handful posting under their own name), there are in excess of 1,000 dedicated current students.
Between the 11,000 I am sure that the total dedication (paypal donations) did not add up to 1% of the money donated to the FOF since this blog took off.
Compare hundreds of events to one single greater Fellowship meeting organized by Ames.
as some one said 0+0=0 (Still true)
132 Sid. RE The Whaleriders post.. from this mustard seed shall spring forth a mighty tree!
Cy
Could it be that the drop in Fellowship of Friends numbers is greater than some think?
Else why wouldn’t Siddiq say there are in excess of 1.500 dedicated current students?
Why would Siddiq say in excess of 1,000?
Curious.
Dear All,
Just an observation. All the daily cards from Robert are extracted from quotes of other eminent men. What Robert seem to do, is taking out a word and associate that word with a quote he invents. Is n’ t that associate thinking/ jack of diamonds?
For example today’s :
Thursday, July 5, 2007
‘Be’ restores order.
Daniel 9:25 – Restore and build Jerusalem until the Messiah comes.
Do we really want to destroy the FOF?
I know some parts of us might say yes but however dirty the bath water may be, consider the following:
1) The Fellowship has some good points. It attracts interesting, intelligent people and provides a network of friends that covers many parts of the world, and provides a means for being together in a beautiful environment.
2) Many people that would never have had the means to travel have been able to see the world and stay in homes of friends along the way.
3) Many with little exposure to classical art have been educated in this area.
4) There are still some very healthy organizations within the Fellowship (e.g. The Walt Whitman Sailing Society).
6) The Fellowship provides access to nice gardens and social events that are on the whole uplifting.
7) The new (not 4th way) approach may not lead to consciousness but probably on the whole is no worse than fundamental religion except that it asks extreme dedication and presents itself as something else.
There are problems that are difficult or impossible to address as long as Robert is in charge:
1) Honest interchange between students and with former students is limited because of the paranoia that is generated due to Robert’s life style requirements.
2) The Fellowship is deceptive. It speaks of connections to higher forces that based on history in all probability do not exist. It speaks of methods that have limited effectiveness (no one is awakening). It undermines creativity and self confidence by crediting the lack of success to lack of effort in the individuals. It provides a false sense of superiority.
3) Robert’s lifestyle is corrupting, hurtful, and uses resources and efforts inappropriately. Over time it hurts most students.
4) The Fellowship encourages people to have similar tastes and lifestyles to Robert and discourages the development of individual creativity except within the boundaries of Robert’s interests.
5) Supporting Robert’s lifestyle is a huge financial burden and it keeps students from taking propper care of their own needs.
But destroying the Fellowship will:
1) Provide financial hardship for many that are invested in houses, businesses and land in the area.
2)Hurt some good people that are on salary, have dedicated their life to the Fellowship and don’t appear to have many alternatives. Many of these people are kind, simple, loving people and they would not thrive if the FOF were taken away.
So I would ask the question – Is there a way to make the following happen?
1) Take away Robert’s abuses and lifestyle. Take away his funding. The FOF is a non profit organization and the founder and teacher does not have more rights than the members. The Fellowship would truly thrive if Robert’s ways were not continually undermining its success.
2) Work to make the organization more honest with regard to what it offers and what can be expected. Broaden the Fellowship to allow other approaches to presence.
3) Allow open communication between current and former members. We have heard talk that this is happening and it seems to me that there is a great deal more openness in this area than even 6 months ago.
Just a thought – Maybe it makes sense to formally have 2 different types of students. The division already exists but is not formalized:
Group 1) Devotees that accept the FOF as religion, Robert as an angel and conduit of C influence, and agree upfront with appropriate and honest counseling to support him with all of his habits.
Group 2) Students that have full access to life, former students, pay minimal teaching payments (which do not support Robert in any way) and which seek a more “fourth way, in life” approach. These students would have access to the property and events but would not be encouraged to be involved with Robert. The teaching could incorporate Robert’s current viewpoint as one approach, not the approach.
Ideally Robert would have some minimal input into the activities of group 2 but he would not be over sold to them. He would not be able to solicit funds from Group 2. Neither group would be presented as superior but rather as alternative paths (Religious vs Psychological). Both groups would help to develop the property as they see fit.
Dear Siddiq and others,
0×0=0, Is often described as our original nature, our soul, our spirit.
I have been thinking a lot about Siddiq, nice how unanimo, describes the person and is sure that it is a “HE”, Passionate, has a family at Isis…?
From one angle, it does not matter, who it is.
For Siddiq, if you are troubled, if your consciences is not sitting well with you, you will start to get sleepless nights, not able to shake of these “I”s of what is happening and am I blind…Many emotions will go through you and I advise you, to just look at them completely acknowledge them see them 360 degrees. Behind those emotions are many “plays” and observations. All the answers are there and the emotions like denial, anger, fear, hurt, pain, sadness are all voices to lead you to your conscience and to the part of you that is not physical. Your true nature, your soul, your spirit…call it as you will 0X0=0. Wods are form thi world not from the spiritual world. Yes, if you are willing to view it all, it is a personal, spiritual journey. You and yourself, completely independent of any authority. Be aware, at this phase many people experience physical reactions, illnesses, temporarily. Do not worry, and face it completely. Part of your inner, private journey. Take some extra vitamins and some extra to boost up your immune system, like a massage. Be quiet for a while and do what you feel is good for your physical body. Spoil yourself. Do not get stuck in a strange illness or back pain ( holding too much toxins) or knee pain because it is hard to bend with the current of life. Or when you vomit the old toxins out do not worry, just watch. It is like dying, dying before your physical body dies… If you get worried see a doctor and get consoled. Clever doctors tell you to do more exercise and express your self….. (Building in the good old American disclaimer here).
Be careful not to go home with anti depressant or sleeping pills, and get hooked on to a new authority figure.
Watch your inner world and observe. What you see externally, see where it is internally…watch.
Then try to have no thoughts and be still. Your personal answers will come and will help you to live your life now, you, yourself has all teh answers.
Give up your wish of taking 80% in a conversation. Go around, asking fellow friends questions and help them to heal so you can get healed. Love yourself. If you can not love your self just start repeating to yourself 10-20 or more times, “I love myself”. Watch and go back to silence maybe 15 minutes or more a day, as you feel. It is confrontational, nothing to loose, do you? Maybe some air, some false personality. It will be very intense…this is a way to become more independent and free…..Hard for many of us who need a person to tell us that we are good and that everything is O.K. as long as…fill in the blanks. Go back to Travelers email and see in which phase you got stuck. Very enlightening to see where you got stuck. Bring light to this area and heal and become morefree. Become who you really are and enjoy your own company.
It is getting time, you are worth it.
Old Fish In The Sea 135
2)Hurt some good people that are on salary, have dedicated their life to the Fellowship and don’t appear to have many alternatives. Many of these people are kind, simple, loving people and they would not thrive if the FOF were taken away.
******************
These are higher men, men number four, and the product of a Fourth Way school run by a man number seven?
To Ames – 124
We’ve had this conversation before; was it in a previous life, or a page or two ago?
I don’t really believe that you don’t believe in an afterlife. You are just distancing yourself from FoF/REB.
If an afterlife exists, so must a pre-life, at least that’s my deduction. And if a pre-existing life can be placed into a vessel once, why not more than once? It makes perfect sense to me that it takes a soul more than one lifetime to “get it right”; that’s why I rejected the world religion of Christanity.
The Fourth Way rejects “blind faith”, not real faith, which is vital and necessary to any spiritual journey. How else does one follow an entity that one cannot see, hear, taste, touch or smell, without some form of faith?
The “Fourth Way” is a term Gurjieff invented. The Fellowship at this time has gone beyond Gurjieff to the sources of his system, esoteric knowledge from all the major traditions. This information is readily available to anyone in 2007 who has a computer and knows about google.
However, its taken hundreds of researchers and the teacher several years to compile and structure/classify this information, and most importantly to “Key it”. To my understanding it all points to an afterlife/ multiple lives.
Part of verifying is based on previous information; there are many things said in all the major traditions that can be verified. When one finds a source that agrees with one’s own verifications one tends to accept the things it says that one cannot fully verify. This is real faith, faith based on verifying.
Are you saying that every being must start from scratch in their search for truth, and disregard the existence of God, Paradise as a beginning basis until they fully verify it?
Adjusting one’s “only” life to the belief that there is an afterlife where one will be “held accountable” can only be a third force to lead a better, more civilized life, not hinder this life.
Cathie – 125
Part of this answer addresses your statment. We are not recruiting muslims, we are going back to many sources, including Islam, for the sake of instructing existing members.
You took enough time to contemplate the motivation of the FoF to use this quote and then respond to it in writing; I also wonder if you took some time to contemplate the meaning of the quote.
Dear HC
Grow up, why stay dependent…when you will die you will have to do it yourself. When you were born it was you alone….maybe some energy around you but no teacher, and no instructor and fellow students.
Share your live and help yourself and others to heal. Use your sense and see the hurt. Many people are hurting now and questioning and lost.
The people who can not leave the fellowship of friends.
Many people who have invested so much emotional.
Many people who have similar characteristics as Robert and therefore feel they can not judge Robert.
Many people who are co dependant
Many people who have addictions.
Many people who have fear.
Many people who belief blindly.
Many peope who have power and love there positions.
Many people who have no jobs
Many people who think they are important researchers and therefore indispensable.
Many people who are healing now their dream as been chattered
Just be present, listen instead of talking too much (sorry to be more exact not more then 50 % of the conversation.) Ask questions, listen, make your self invisible.
Please listen to what is now reality. Do not dictate your viewpoint on your surroundings…listen to the people on salary, call the ones who do not show up at the Apollo d’Oro ask them why and if there is anything you can do for them Visit the sick and the elderly ask if there is something you can do for them. Use your senses instead of being so self assured and invincible. A wise (ex) student said. If you think you are right an alarm bell needs to sound…
Good luck HC, you really need all the help you can get and you will say you have it. I do hope so for you….
(So far you have not responded to any of my post, no expectations here).
hc, siddiq, I’m glad you’re both posting here, and certainly defend your right to do so, as it also protects my own right to do so. But there you both go again… and again… and again… and again…
… admitting not a single problem, not a single fault, not a single ounce of dysfunction or destruction in the fof, and ignoring all of the arguments, issues, and facts placed before you. Do you feel anything? Do you think anything that’s new?
Siddiq, HC, you can always sneak away in a burqua and high heels like the pakastani cleric tried to do yesterday.
Howard:
You say:
“It makes perfect sense to me that it takes a soul more than one lifetime to “get it right”; that’s why I rejected the world religion of Christanity.”
Yet the only response you could offer me was to quote Jesus Christ.
Naturally, that response, in any context was completely ineffective and very off-topic.
I don’t believe that your teacher has any aspirations toward Christ-like behavior.
In addition, I remember his attitude about Mother Theresa, which was disdainful at best.
LL
on 05 Jul 2007 at 6:50 am
115 Howard Carter
Dear Howard it is so painful to see you struggling so helplessly with your intellectual center.
Here is a typical example of what I kindly call “dumber than a rock”.
• there are many lifetimes”
“It is written about in every major spiritual tradition, by all the major sages/prophets of those traditions.”
You are not knowledgeable of every major spiritual tradition. Those that are I.E. who are accredited by the Religions or who have studied to the level of receiving a degree in comparative religions might disagree. Your premise is based on the unspoken assumption that since Robert Burton has said this it is correct. Many who participate on the blog would question this.
I have had experiences in which I have “seen” the reality of reoccurrence. In my experience this penetration into a higher dimension does not produce answers but questions. That is when there is right work of centers.
you write In relation to “C Influence” and the idea of a play.
This is a difficult concept to grasp but one that is also found in every major tradition; Fate, Destiny, Karma, recurrence, reincarnation, etc. All these are held in balance by the concept of “Free Will”. It is an enigma; we are not meant to understand these things in their entirety. We can intuit them.
Again you take Robert Burton teaching as true in an attempt to prove that Robert Burtons teaching is true. There is a word for this Howard the Duck. Fuckin’ stupid. “Dumber than a rock”. This is a difficult concept to grasp but the way and the work of the 4th way begin at a higher level than life. If your ability to reason and argue your position is so immature, so undeveloped it reflects the lack of development of the intellectual center in general so you are below the level of life. First it is not order vs. chaos, free will vs. predestination but there are three laws. Fate, accident and cause and effect.. There is no higher intelligence creating all activities on Earth rather there are Laws and even higher beings must conform to Law.
This is a difficult concept to grasp but even if there was a play Robert Burton would not know the script. This is an absolute fact that he has proven himself over and over. You Hoard the Duck ( kinda cute rhymes with Suck) are a classic case of ones imagination blinding them to reality. Don’t you get it.? Knock knock anybody home? This is logic dealing with a proven “fact” Robert has been wrong thus Robert can be wrong thus Robert will be wrong again. This is a fact. This leaves you with having to evaluate Robert’s bullshit pronouncements from the proven perspective of whether he is right . If you should ever desire to experience reality as Gurdjieff worked so hard to make available to you must learn to think and verify for yourself.
“• everyone who says, “I willingly join the damned” says that until the actual moment of joining”
This is verifiable on many levels in life; people say they’ll do something willingly until it’s time to do it and then they change their tune.”
what or who are the dammed? Those who having been given the gift of a magnetic center who trade the potential for eternal life for belief in a false prophet. This is a fact Duck boy. Robert’s prophecies were wrong this is without question the definition of a false prophet. Don’t you fit the definition of “the dammed” someone who agreed to the terms and conditions of the 4th way yet exchanged this for a second rate cult of the divine cocksucking goddess in a man’s body.
If there is any vestige of reality left in your little duck brain answer this. If cocksucking is so good for you why doesn’t Robert encourage this divine draining of the sacred cup by his students.
There have been real schools that taught the use of physical sex in spiritual development. The Fellowship of Friends is not one. Robert Burton is not only addicted to the physical act of sexually violating read Raping his students but the negative emotional energy and shame that accompanies such an activity. Robert knows little about healthy sex and this which should be at the core of a real teaching is proof of his failure to achieve the consciousness he claims.
Howard, regarding (#14-138), thank you for making yourself quite, quite clear. I was having this conversation with the illusion that we at least agreed on what the concept of verification is. I’m wrong, obviously.
So, you are in a new religion that espouses relative awakening (awakening within limits set up by your priest/intermediary) using an appropriate new tool, “partial verification”. Work with “partial verification” means than whenever you run out of steam, or into an inconvenient obstacle to your understanding, you can just drag out “faith” or “whatever Burton says” to fill in the gaps. What was confusing to me is that this is not verification—in my language.
I’ll try to answer one of your few personal questions to me, “Are you saying that every being must start from scratch in their search for truth, and disregard the existence of God, Paradise as a beginning basis until they fully verify it?”
In one word, yes.
I’ve tried to re-examine all my presumptions from scratch. This, for me, is particularly important when I try to analyze the mechanisms that mould us in our culture, and to any person serious about self–examination, examining religion in all its forms must be included. That’s a lot of work, to be sure, but I cheerfully undertook it when I was at a similar stage to you, but not so lazy. It happens that later, I found out that there was a short cut around this nearly impossible mountain. Burton didn’t try to hide this from me, because he simply didn’t know; he is not nearly the high being he claims he is, or that you believe/have faith in. But that is another story.
You might want to study the law of three a little more deeply. The concept in your last paragraph to me, “Adjusting one’s “only” life to the belief that there is an afterlife where one will be “held accountable” can only be a third force to lead a better, more civilized life, not hinder this life.”—leads directly to such civilizing influences as, “The Crusades”, “The Holy Inquisition”, “Let’s introduce democracy at the point of the gun”, and such. This is the wrong third force for internal work. The fact that you don’t understand this explains the content of many of your posts, and why you are stuck. The fact that Burton doesn’t understand this explains why he is not fit to teach, and why he is stuck.
I wish you the best,
Ames
Howie,
Do yourself a favor. Follow this link and download the free talk
“Enlightenment straight up” and listen with as open a mind as you can muster.
http://www.adyashanti.org/cafedharma/index.php?file=audio
Love,
Ryan.
p.s. recommended to all.
HC #125 or so: “You took enough time to contemplate the motivation of the FoF to use this quote and then respond to it in writing; I also wonder if you took some time to contemplate the meaning of the quote.”
Yes.
The quote was:
“We can know Allah through Allah. We can know what’s other than Allah by the light of Allah.”
We = you, me and everybody else on the planet can
Know = apprehend, experience, have thoughts about (BIG can of worms here!)
Allah = The Absolute, God, that which goes by many names but is un-nameable. Ultimate Reality, Truth, etc.
through = by being one with Allah; by Allah’s grace? Meaning here is ambiguous, thus open to much wiseacring or as you would say, “keying.” Could be synonymous with “know” (see above). In which case, we have a meaningless circular statement:
“We can know Allah by knowing Allah” ?
Maybe so, maybe not.
OK, the next part is a little dicier:
We can know = (see above)
what’s other = what is not Allah. But how can there be anything that is NOT Allah?? Allah is all and everything, the absolute, Allah contains all. Therefore, the notion of “not Allah” is a product of dualistic mind activity.
by the light of Allah = Allah is light. Allah is also dark, since Allah transcends duality. Therefore Allah contains both light and dark. Light and dark are relative terms, dependent on human perceptual mechanisms.
In summary, the quote appears to assert that the human mind can “know” Ultimate Reality. This is a matter of belief.
Beliefs and mind activity are not awakening.
Reminds me of the Sufi story about Mullah Nasrudin looking for his keys under the lamp post.
Don’t keep looking there just because the place is conveniently lit. The keys you are looking for are elsewhere.
Or just possibly, the door was never locked.
Cathie (#14-136), you are leaving all sorts of clues in plain sight…
Sure, Howard is looking for the keys under the lamp post, but he’s too busy to notice that behind him, the sunrise has already lit the whole street!
Love to you and to all who read this,
Ames
Random thoughts: I have verified very little. I kinda hope there is nothing to “recurrence” I dont want to go through all this again.
I think I read where some philosophers like Socrates or maybe somebody following believed or verified for themselves “life before life”. And then, maybe I’m thinking of Marcus Aurelius.
And, I think I read where Ouspensky got the idea of “recurrence” from Nietzsche.
Anyway, back to real life. WhaleRider I have two questions for you. What is Schwartz?
And, I went to that link provided by Laura #81. Robert Burton at the place I found him was akin to a empty closet in the basement. But, I noticed that a lot of non-Indian gurus have taken on an Indian name. Is there an explanation?
Finally, and I’m speaking without permission for Vera-Mente.
In the Bible and I really dont remember page, number or context. But, a vineyard Overlord was paying his field hands.
The first were handsomely paid (those that were in the FOF for a good while) then as they reached the end Arthur and Vera-Mente were paid as much. Of course, there was a dispute.
Arthur and Vera-Mente claimed that the FOF vineyard belong to all the field hands as equals.
We want our share!!!!
Arthur,
“May the schwartz be with you”. From the epic film on enlightenment,,, “Space Balls”. A quote from the guru Yogurt.
Re: 132 – Siddiq
“there are in excess of 1,000 dedicated current students.”
Perhaps there is a greater number of students leaving than previously conjectured. Why would Siddiq use the number 1,000? Why not use 1,500? Or 2,000?
Curious. Inquiring minds would like to know.
Old Fish In The Sea 135
Graduates 137 – “These are higher men, men number four, and the product of a Fourth Way school run by a man number seven?
I guess your point is that if the above were true, these people would easily be able to take care of themselves and we need not worry about them. But since it is likely not true, there are still those that are left in a bad situation.
Perhaps I both over and under estimate some of these people. Many are, I am sure quite capable. But there are those that have dedicated their whole life to the FOF and they are older now and not really prepared to be successful outside of the Fellowship. Probably they could be successful but they do not know that.
Anyway, the point is that some will be hurt if the FOF dissolves and we may want to consider them. Not that it is our problem but there are readers that have a stake in what happens.
mifis (150): Good question. And you didn’t even ask about the term “dedicated” and how that’s defined.
Anyway, they say numbers don’t lie — unless they’re statistics.
Hello ~ 108 confused
You wrote to H.C. ~
“I appreciate your postings. I like how you are keeping your line consistently and “in the kings”. I would sleep better if you were right and not the “rest of the blog”. All these “negative people”… But any time I think that for 38 years (and right now and will continue) RB is screwing the guys, my friends, damaging their essences, causing this never ending craze, FEAR. How he confuses them by lying to them, manipulating them, uses them and throws away – I can’t sleep anymore. I have a child and I don’t want anything bad to happen to him. I don’t want him to know about what is going on in this organization, were his mom belongs. I can hear the question of the child: “Why is Robert having sex with all these men?”
So, WHY? They don’t want it. They hate it. But they do it. Tonight is someone’s “visit time” after the dinner. And tomorrow. Can anyone, anything STOP THIS CRIME???”
_____________________________________
Yes, its odd that there are people on this blog who ‘appreciate’ postings of those who support Robert Burton; at the end of their postings of said “appreciation” ask ~ “Can anyone, anything STOP THIS CRIME???”
Well, ‘confused’, you can start by not stroking and picking the fleas off the devil’s belly.
Get thee self to your District Attorney’s Office.
____________________________________________
Hello ~ 111 More history needed?
You asked ~
“Can somebody inform us what happened with M.R, (who payed Rabia) and a performance for Robert with girls like A, S,R ?
Thanks for you time and energy”
_______________________________
Call her up. She’s on Page 55 of the 2007 AT & T phone book in this area or get on the Greater Fellowship’s website and ask around. Or call 411 and ask for a Mari R on Concord Trail in Oregon House, California.
She’s doing fine BTW… outside of being freaked concerning the break-ins near her house… Yet, what do you expect when you live one mile from the Methamphetamine capital of California (?)
______________________________________
Hello ~ 123 vera.mente
You wrote ~
“Former Student, Veronicapoe, Unoanimo, thank you for your thoughts regarding Class Action Lawsuit.
It does not seem easy to build…but if someone is willing and able to start it I will probably join it . Arthur is interested as well!
On the other hand there are plenty of crimes that could be brought to the attention of various authorities…
Sometimes I feel the desperation from some people here who beg to stop the insanity going on at Isis…
I too feel impatience, even though I have been removed from the direct influence of the fof and rb for a long time now.
I want a change! and hope all this writing here on this blog, the stories etc., will cause a change! The end of the fof under RB!”
______________________________
Hello vera.mente ~
The key denying force is to be found in your very words “it seems”… This is an illusion; remember, every millimeter of struggle and tension sensed, in starting this process, is your own ‘baptismal in the waters of your being’…
You were breathing artificial embryonic fluids in the Fellowship of Friends… Now, get past “seems” and get going; forget about ‘difficult’, think ‘birth’, birth is difficult, though that’s not really what it’s about, is it?
Love your pressure and tension, its your birth!
No, it won’t be easy to bring the Fellowship of Friends into objective perspective, yet, what is? You are not alone, there are many who will join you; as Whalerider suggested, you need to allocate duties, ‘parts’ of the one body to many different people, video conferencing will also assist and a multi-national law suit may also be necessary, since, after all, many other countries and embassies are involved in these procurement of visas, religious and work papers, etc, for a phony ‘church’.
To me, its not really on the scale of ‘grass roots’, the grass roots thing has already established its ‘lawn’ in previous law suits, although, Whalerider is right nonetheless, that getting the local community involved, if it’s just letter writing to the Governor, a petition, both, that will get things rolling; if this was a new complaint-thing it would be very difficult to establish ‘a means’,
though the ‘house of cards’ has already been built, 37 years ago, multiple law suits, paid off and hidden away abuses and situations, dropped cases, a long history of buffered objective justice for the sake of subjective self calming;
and the card-house is considerably large and unsteady;
there is so much ‘garbage’ piled behind the food refrigerators belonging to Isis that I sense that one little yellow canary alighting on top will pull it down…
Do you have the will to not only follow your heart and gut, but also say “yes, that’s my heart” in case a policeman charges you both with jay walking?
The only tough part will be going up against the mirror image within yourself pointing to the issues at hand; this will be a great spiritual exercise for many, because the pressure and denying force felt in situations like this effort to be made, desired by you and so many others, is that of your own pain bodies struggling to stay in the struggling-self si-do habit world, where unfinished things seem more immortal than finished,
where unfinished feelings and gut sensations seem more supportive for tomorrow;
one of the greatest reasons people don’t like to
go through the ‘court thing’ is not the money, you can borrow money to make money and some lawyers do not charge unless they win, so,
all in all, the reason is that, in court the pain body must (though many buffer this) face the objectivity of its ‘little world’ put into perspective with the bigger world of ‘pain bodies’ where its identification is erased and placed into a category of personal responsibility to society (king of hearts) and the world (hints of higher emotional)…
It’s tough because the painbody needs the ongoing drama to continue, hence the si-do need: going to court, taking all this silliness all the way will change your inner world, no doubt, it must, since you’re still on the Path, yes?
Prison & Execution is the Temple of Si-do for the painbody.
Real desires are our teachers; so much of Robert Burton’s idea of C-Influence has been given to him by default, osmosis from common sense religious piety;
I met C-Influence when I was 8 or 9 years old and never for one minute felt them leave or wiseacred that they had abandoned me; sure there’s been middle fingers held towards the heavens, though, so what, sometimes I see cloud shapes giving it back to me.
So, get out there and love the pressure, smile and give birth to Buddha.
______________________________________
Hello ~ 130 Rhino Neal
You wrote ~
“Unoanimo, on a different topic, can you tell us why you remain in the FoF? Your postings indicate you’re not very impressed by it. thanks, RN”
________________________________
Whose us, you and HC? Lol.
Another cigarette lighter in the dark?
The only person in this blog who has made this claim (that I am a member of the FoF or ever was) is HC, who, as Ames stated, could just be an intellectual in Berkeley writing and pushing buttons or an ex student who is getting kicks on Route 666.
Rhino, go back and re-read what I wrote to Whalerider concerning this ‘wonder’ of yours; he had it too and ‘did the right thing’ and seemed to have found the appropriate higher emotional answer to this question for himself, perhaps the same will occur for you, my friend…
I have been observing the phenomenon of the Fellowship of Friends for a very, very long time; not one student knows anything concerning my past (or for that matter, my present, this includes Grand poo-ra HC)…
It’s the way it must be, considering the nature of the triad, here, elsewhere, and will remain so, even after my anonymous-ness is revealed by me;
there’s a larger picture at play here than just the Fellowship of Friends, it’s about supporting certain standards, while simultaneously observing those who are walking backwards, assisting in jump starting channels of objective, conscious common sense and supporting a certain kind of becoming.
This has been one of my (and many on this blog site) tasks, one that has been flowing through me before my teens; so I am pretty at home with all this stuff and the Fellowship of Friends is only the tip of the iceberg that sunk the titanic, a very little bathtub of a ship in the bigger scheme of ‘things’.
So, go deeper, and if you believe one phrase or sentence that HC writes, I mean ‘really’, then certainly, you’ve got no real reason or place to put an answer from me to begin with;
I trust you’ll figure, as Whalerider did, that our hearts are connected in ways that the brain just can’t fathom, nor can the 10 of diamonds wiseacre itself beyond its own little world selfishness (seeming like Higher Intellectual), no way,
Higher Intellectual has no resemblance whatsoever to the 10 of diamonds, Ouspensky found this out the hard way, yet, after all, the real fourth way is difficult (though not the king of clubs difficult Robert Burton self calms himself from), for it is based on this lifetime and this one only, to the hilt, with absolutely no excuses,
the theory of lifetimes is a ‘pretty boys’ plaything, it is another tool of self calming and from a school of relative awakening, which, at best creates magnetic centers, which, even if essence is damaged, may result is something remaining after death.
Yet, its not the magnetic center by default, which is the issue here, its the psychic damage and treatment of the lot of time on this planet and our relationship to these impressions as they unfold, i.e., what they do with us automatically and what we do with them consciously;
yes, we have will and can move within the chess pieces, no matter the hand of god, god cannot move me as I can, otherwise there would be no reason to be down here…
I like to sense that I am more than a Duracell battery on some god’s shoulder.
If you see a pyramid in the distance, it may just be your own horn, so be careful what you assume from the assuming.
______________________________________
Dear ~ 135 Old Fish In The Sea
You wrote ~
“Do we really want to destroy the FOF?….”
Just for scale and relativity I am going to use a little artistic license here and tie-off some loose ends I sense you’ve left for us to deal with in your equation of what could be left, (calling a ’slice’ a whole pizza?) ~
What you wrote, I will put in ” ” marks…
“I know some parts of us might say yes but however dirty the bath water may be, consider the following:”
“1) The Fellowship has some good points. It attracts interesting, intelligent people and provides a network of friends that covers many parts of the world, and provides a means for being together in a beautiful environment”,
which supports spiritual crime, damages essence, teaches methods of self calming, prolongs hierarchal structured psychosis and religious piety that contradicts the entire premise of the fourth way. Joining a ‘regular church’ with ‘normal people’ and reading B-influence books simultaneously will produce similar, if not, healthier essences and clearer ‘baby water’.
“2) Many people that would never have had the means to travel have been able to see the world and stay in homes of friends along the way.”
Nor would they have had the chance to be led to Isis for the exploitation of their wallets and what’s beneath their wallet’s pocket and sent back to where they came from, if they wish this exploitation be otherwise, other than against their conscience and self worth hearts; nor would they have been able to spend months in foreign jails for having had fake passports made by the request of The Teacher so to insure that his ‘fresh meat’ did not spoil, waiting in line at the consulate’s will and discretion.
“3) Many with little exposure to classical art have been educated in this area.”
Nor have they been proportionately educated in the area of acquiring million dollar paintings (the largest one in the Galleria to the left) that have been proven by the Italian government to have been illegally sold and smuggled out of the country to Oregon House, nor have they been educated in how to horde expensive artworks, jewelry, cars, clothes and apartments in Europe at the expense of said ‘contributors of such luxuries’ poverty, no health care, under the thumb of The Teacher, to be asked, against their will and oftentimes ‘real fairness’ to leave, at any time, for any silly reason, (like not accepting a sport coat gift), thanking them not, nor dividends in any investments, for anything they’ve done to support that which they themselves could never singularly have had, nor consciously asked of others prior to those ‘others’ welfare was first taken into consideration (although I must footnote here, that by now, there are a few who would do this sort of thing, particularly the hermaphrodites.)
“4) There are still some very healthy organizations within the Fellowship (e.g. The Walt Whitman Sailing Society).”
Who sail away from Isis as far as they can, whose experiences and near death experiences on the open sea has deepened their convictions that there might just be something to all this blog stuff, albeit not the mainland, its kinda floating in space similar to a boat at sea, with no shore in sight. There are also other ‘healthy organizations’ within the legal status ‘church’ called the Fellowship of Friends, who are conveniently ‘birthed’ at City Hall for the main goal of funneling monies back to Robert Burton and Friends by way of charitable donations and teaching payments to pay for more self calming and religious, conscience-less, psychosis piety.
“6) The Fellowship provides access to nice gardens and social events that are on the whole uplifting.”
They also provide access to your imaginary picture that this life is ‘just not the one Robert Burton wiseacres it has to be for you to awaken in’ thus creating a ‘dope garden’ to self-calm you from the news (and plenty of porn and wine justifications) and daily reminders that Robert Burton is the ‘only one in your life worth supporting, for you cannot do, you cannot awaken, C-Influence does not need your love, you can’t hold the Sequence long enough, you don’t remember yourself enough, you’re a walking subtle-replica of the enemy that he preaches against every Sunday’; yes, gardens, not unlike those of the high French Aristocrats had, prior to the French revolution. Not to mention the parallel ‘uplifting’ erection drugs used by Robert Burton and Company to maintain ‘astuteness’ beyond the pangs of conscience and self loathing; assisting in the wiseacre thought that ~ Hey, if you’ve got an erection, you must be in love, right, you must want it?
“7) The new (not 4th way) approach may not lead to consciousness but probably on the whole is no worse than fundamental religion except that it asks extreme dedication and presents itself as something else.”
Nor is it “no worse” than the rape and molestation charges now draining the catholic church of billions of dollars and followers. Nor is it “no worse” than a church that calls itself a church, yet, in all world-wide terms is a cult, not a traditional-church, where members can usurp the pastor if he proves to be corrupt and have him replaced by another, for their welfare, not his; unlike a cult, where the pastor usurps the ‘church goers’ and keeps the status of ‘church’ so that his of hers monies can be stretched to the furthest self calming limits without paying too much back to where it came from, i.e., tax exempt status, whose ‘loss’ of 8 or 9 members by the visit of certain ‘officials’ can often lead to the murder of 9 people and the mass suicide & murder of 900+ men, women, children and infants.
“There are problems that are difficult or impossible to address as long as Robert is in charge:
1) Honest interchange between students and with former students is limited because of the paranoia that is generated due to Robert’s life style requirements.
2) The Fellowship is deceptive. It speaks of connections to higher forces that based on history in all probability do not exist. It speaks of methods that have limited effectiveness (no one is awakening). It undermines creativity and self confidence by crediting the lack of success to lack of effort in the individuals. It provides a false sense of superiority.
3) Robert’s lifestyle is corrupting, hurtful, and uses resources and efforts inappropriately. Over time it hurts most students.
4) The Fellowship encourages people to have similar tastes and lifestyles to Robert and discourages the development of individual creativity except within the boundaries of Robert’s interests.
5) Supporting Robert’s lifestyle is a huge financial burden and it keeps students from taking propper care of their own needs.”
Take the elephant’s ivory and leave it dead, calling it still an elephant? Hummmm… would this kind of King of Hearts nit-picking really lead to spiritual vitality and change of level of being, or is it simply worshiping the crucification while postulating that such a heinous crime could never happen again; albeit, if it didn’t happen our painbodies wouldn’t have anything to worship?
“But destroying the Fellowship will:
1) Provide financial hardship for many that are invested in houses, businesses and land in the area.
2)Hurt some good people that are on salary, have dedicated their life to the Fellowship and don’t appear to have many alternatives. Many of these people are kind, simple, loving people and they would not thrive if the FOF were taken away.
So I would ask the question – Is there a way to make the following happen?
1) Take away Robert’s abuses and lifestyle. Take away his funding. The FOF is a non profit organization and the founder and teacher does not have more rights than the members. The Fellowship would truly thrive if Robert’s ways were not continually undermining its success.
2) Work to make the organization more honest with regard to what it offers and what can be expected. Broaden the Fellowship to allow other approaches to presence.
3) Allow open communication between current and former members. We have heard talk that this is happening and it seems to me that there is a great deal more openness in this area than even 6 months ago.
Just a thought – Maybe it makes sense to formally have 2 different types of students. The division already exists but is not formalized:
Group 1) Devotees that accept the FOF as religion, Robert as an angel and conduit of C influence, and agree upfront with appropriate and honest counseling to support him with all of his habits.
Group 2) Students that have full access to life, former students, pay minimal teaching payments (which do not support Robert in any way) and which seek a more “fourth way, in life” approach. These students would have access to the property and events but would not be encouraged to be involved with Robert. The teaching could incorporate Robert’s current viewpoint as one approach, not the approach.
Ideally Robert would have some minimal input into the activities of group 2 but he would not be over sold to them. He would not be able to solicit funds from Group 2. Neither group would be presented as superior but rather as alternative paths (Religious vs Psychological). Both groups would help to develop the property as they see fit.”
Ideally?
My friend, you’re fooling around with a triad not unlike America’s model of Democracy and the Roman Empire.
Yes, there’s such a thing as a cover-crop and tiling it under for the real crop, yet, this will not happen in Oregon House; the spiritual cancer at Isis is too deep and those who have unknowingly fed it their blood will be paid first; after this first ‘reconciling act’ nothing will be left and students will continue as they will anyway once any teacher’s role ends, they will have to roll with the punches from the Absolute, all those before us did, we are not privileged for knowing what we know from this blog, actually, we, who have truly digested this material here, will have to pay for it dearly, by slowly not being it, not becoming what it warns of.
I am deeply touched by your wish to save the ‘good parts’, all your ideas and attempts to recycle and transform, though, this is not the direction Robert Burton has initiated: the Fellowship of Friends started with a lie and will end with its lie, no more, no less; although this does not rule out the possibility of a ‘family of friends’, the Greater Fellowship seems headed in that direction.
An entity as Robert Burton would never settle for second best, a lateral position; he does not tell the truth because the whole ‘form’ is a lie; you cannot pull the foundation out from underneath a house and save the plumbing…
Such an ‘order of things’ would undoubtedly prove that Robert Burton is a liar, a fake and that the Fellowship of Friends has always been for him a means of self calming and earthly identification gymnastics… Do you really believe he would ‘fuss up’ to all that?
As always; the Fellowship of Friends motto “Silence is Golden”, will be his style, he’ll relocate or stay here and relocate the form of the school, seeming this and that…
Saturns are experts at silence and ulterior motives.
More games, no one truly on the path has time for…
curiosity certainly does kill the cat, for investment into another lifetime is the ultimate ‘promise of cat food’ while the real cat, the now-cat, starves and convulses to death.
Thank you though, for your incredible desire to assist those who need your love; try to do small things for now, like emailing this blog’s address to others around the world and contacting the California Governor’s office; certainly your love can be applied to more probable segments of the one now, than a kind of ‘wish’ for the future:
remember, alongside those who wiseacre doomsday, there are those who also wiseacre the coming of heaven: neither will happen on earth, this is an internal ‘arrival’: if the earth ever does call itself a ‘heaven’ it will be by default, by proximity to its inhabitants having already built ‘heaven’ within…
_____________________________________
Hello ~ 136 Another Name
You wrote ~
“Dear Siddiq and others,
0×0=0, Is often described as our original nature, our soul, our spirit.
I have been thinking a lot about Siddiq, nice how unanimo, describes the person and is sure that it is a “HE”, Passionate, has a family at Isis…?
From one angle, it does not matter, who it is.”
_____________________________
I know Siddiq and he knows me (sorta). So, well, that’s that.
_____________________________
Love to you all.
Old Fish in the Sea 135:
Yes, there are those who would suffer, especially those who have grown old in the mis-directed “service” of the FoF. They have made choices that were perhaps foolish, but they were their choices, and they must deal with the consequences of their choices, just as you and I must. Many of them are living in an environment (art, music, gardens, events) that pleases them. They have been willing to ignore the deceit, the crime, the suffering of others in order to continue living in this environment.
Among other issues, for these “old hands” to continue as such with clearer consciences, FoF would need to become financially self supporting, i.e. not run on the donations of those who have been bringing in the money all these years. Not on the fake money-grubbing “events” of RB. Let Apollo Arts become self sufficient. Let Apollo Olive Oil, the orchard, the reduced vineyard, yes, the gardens, the stupid palm trees, the nurseries, let them all bring in sufficient money to pay the salaries and the retirement and the health insurance. Take all the money away from RB, from law suits, from legal insurance, from relocating a fountain 2 feet to the south or changing the color scheme of RB’s study. Bring in real management. It sure is no School as it is, so it might as well become efficient, no more excuse for “intentional friction”.
It is not going to happen.
And you know what? Even if we depose RB (which is very unlikely) – the corruption will still be there, because those who will have the power after he’s gone (his “inner circle”) have become equally corrupt themselves. Oh, they may not seek the same sexual gratification, they may not be quite so greedy, but their corruption will have it’s own outlet. And they may not have the charisma, so less money will be pulled in. But the rottenness at the root will kill the tree. They have traded their power, their green cards, their jobs, their place in the hierarchy – for their consciences and their sincerity. Will they suffer? You bet. Are there innocents in there, who really didn’t “know what was going on”? Umm, maybe. We had pretty big earplugs and blinders for a long time.
There but for fortune, go you and I – oh, yes, and we will suffer too, we may lose our property, some money at least. That’s the breaks, the payment we make for converting naivete to experience.
But, as for a lawsuit. The only ones who gain from lawsuits are lawyers. The ones who lose are those who go through all that anger, rage, self justification, revenge, feeling “had”, putting it all out there in public – it’s a truly ugly process – there might be more reasons than being paid off that the previous suers settled out of court.
Better to let it all collapse on it’s own weaknesses.
Put our loving energy towards all those Friends out there.
“Better to let it all collapse on it’s own weaknesses.
Put our loving energy towards all those Friends out there.”
I agree.
Old Fish continued…
Another thought for those friends still “in”, who have pinned their lives and old age on the FoF, well, I would take them in, help them survive. Wouldn’t you?
So here’s a message to my friends who might be trapped – I have room, I love you, you are welcome to my help. You can find me on the Greater Fellowship website – send your request to Janna 14;104.
Sharon H.
Hello Cathie ~
You wrote ~
“But, as for a lawsuit. The only ones who gain from lawsuits are lawyers. The ones who lose are those who go through all that anger, rage, self justification, revenge, feeling “had”, putting it all out there in public – it’s a truly ugly process – there might be more reasons than being paid off that the previous suers settled out of court.”
_________________________
Tell Troy Buzbee that; he got nearly 1 million dollars ((after)) the lawyers were paid.
I truly do not believe that a “going through” has to be filled with anger, rage, self justification, revenge, feeling ‘had’:
I mean geez, you can get all that by rejoining the Fellowship of Friends, better yet, stay in: too you can get that by saying ‘no’ to the Grand Yes Goddess (oooo, a rap, I wanna, it’s brewing).
Comeon Cathie, get off the Formatory Emotional Choo Choo Train and live a little;
I took a certain ‘dealership’ to court as a young teenager: I lost, yet I won, though I didn’t get my money back, because a certain ’second party purchaser could not make it’, all the hoopla got them out of town and revealed to other possible ‘lollipops’; the class action lawsuit won’t have that kind of denying force, nor is it about money, its about those still in their (you know (yes I said it), it would be Rambo like), and particularly those to come, so to speak.
Yes, its July and its pretty easy to be skeptical and dismayed; yet, what if it were, say, November, rainy days ahead, nothing to do but to sue, sue, sue… Pretend its November, put on your mittens, ski jacket, woolly pants, socks and hat and get on the slope or would you rather have your conscience smokin post humorous Burton dope?
The anger can be replaced with separation and by carrying and taking a look from time to time at a few pictures of Lewis Carol little boys, who, if Troy Buzbee is any proof, will be attending prospective student meetings in 8-10 years, when some other narcissus brother is on the front cover of ‘Oregon House Pimp Daddy Froth Way Lover’.
What ’self justification’? It’s not about ‘the self’, at least the real self, its about the ‘little elf’, the naive ones coming and staying and those who (believe it or not) still don’t know. It’s about essence growing and well, yes, history; educating essence and putting up some objective milestones and payment markers.
“Revenge and feeling ‘had’” (?) ~ Wow, Cathie, you could wiseacre those emotions about anything that’s controversial on this planet, plastic cups for instance, I mean, plastic bags are already banned in San Francisco, the Terminator is our Governor and George Bush is president:
anyone who’s not doing the ‘Rilke thing’ and transforming all this hay fever ‘pollen’ into the invisible could be considered ‘had’, particularly at the end of one’s ‘play’, if you’re one of the those who ’sees it coming’, some do not even have the ‘time slot’ to feel those kind of depressions, the switch is simply clicked OFF, while they’re feeling good.
To me, all the emotions you speak of (in their extremes) just get essence H12 running into momma and daddy’s arms; you can do better than that.
These emotions occur every day and are automatically applied to even the difference in price of produce at Oregon House Grocery and Food For Less in Yuba City, your spouse, your naiveté, a bad movie based on a bogus reviewers spin, a shirt bought at an Isis auction that was $200 and cost (since they were bought in bulk) $25 each.
Actually, there’s not much room in the court house for the Queen of Heart’s, you just have to stick to the facts and there are plenty. Writing a ‘Bill of Particulars’ and presenting it to the judge is a great way to start.
The only reason Eve started running out of Eden is because Adam took the snake off her shoulders and put it on his and said “Catch me if you can”, she, running after him, whirling an arm load of apples near his head.
_________________________
P.S. And, no, Cathie, you are not a descendant of Robert Burton’s rib and do not owe him what he himself does not show back.
Love to you all.
Name correction; sorry Sharon, I called you Cathie in post #157…
How are things in Grass Valley?
l.t.y.a.
Uno – don’t blame Cathie – that’s me, Sharon.
“”Let Apollo Arts become self sufficient. Let Apollo Olive Oil, the orchard, the reduced vineyard….”"
Hi Sharon and all,
Actually these are private enterprises. The olive oil and organic cherry orchards are very successful– I would guess because the products are *wonderful* and are smartly marketed. I think a lease is paid to the fof for the space to grow/make the products. (Has everyone tasted the olive oil? I am in awe. Finally, a good product from that landscape that has a taste that reflects the good parts.)
Current members are not dummies. Some of us (current and former) have never fit in completely, but that does not mean that we can’t find a niche. That is what California was invented for. (well, maybe the whole west coast…)
”Let Apollo Arts become self sufficient.”
It’s too bad for the FOF mural painters that Saddam isn’t around. He loved vain-glorious high kitsch.
Guys, I think FOF will collapse all by itself and probably sooner than we think… Teacher will teach only if he gets cash. The way things are going there is less and less of cash coming in.
Please keep shedding light, keep exposing the lies, keep telling your stories. Truth doesn’t need to be defended it just needs to be seen. FOF is so corrupted and commercialized but doesn’t show this ugly side to new seekers. The teaching became so clearly absurd and insane so all we have to do is simply post it without adding anything. It speaks (screams) for itself!
I’ll continue to post the original stuff from FOF as it is – unaltered, and let it speak for itself. I encourage others to do the same. Let buyer beware. Hopefully those students who are still in doubt will make up their minds. Let us see the brainwashing, shameless money sqeezing, and purely delusional interpretations of various images being sold to students as “Sacred Teaching”. Let us see it for what it is and be honest with ourselves.
_________________________________________
Dear Friends,
The Video Distribution Octave is undergoing further refinement. Our Teacher underlines the importance for each of us to be as closely connected to this sacred Teaching as possible. He has listed as one of our highest priorities
the viewing of the Teaching Events on DVD.
The School is moving at lightening speed. C Influence continually reveals new knowledge. The level of Robert’s Teaching becomes ever more distilled and objective.Each student will now be able to go to propylaia and access the list of the Teaching videos. You will find the list of videos under the Link “From the Teacher”.
___________________________________
Dear Friends,
Robert has pointed out that the task of our school is to gather all the expressions of the system historically, and that we have now come to the earliest expressions of the system in prehistoric times, before Egypt. He requested that the following message with accompanying images and quotations be sent to the School:
Although the prehistoric school did not use written language to transmit their knowledge, we can understand their images with the help of the writings of other traditions. In particular, our understanding of the Egyptian School is now serving as a bridge to help us understand the Prehistoric Tradition, as pre-dynastic Egypt is essentially the end of the Prehistoric Tradition. Below are three examples of Prehistoric images with accompanying quotes that help explain their keys:
1) The first image is the The Head of a Woman with Cross-hatched Hair. It is from France, dated 25,000 BP (Before the Present). It is carved from mammoth ivory and is about 4 cm tall.
Hair is a key for the many ‘I’s, the ten thousand. Hair put into order represents the many ‘I’s, the passions, under control with the sequence (as opposed to chaos, imagination). This passage from Going Forth by Day refers to the steward coming out of imagination with Short Be.
The neatly arranged cross-hatched hair of the woman shows the order brought to the steward/ the nine of hearts with the sequence.
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/5089/861womanwithcrosshatcherz6.jpg
2) The next image, The Hunting Scene, is a rock painting from a cave in Lascaux, France, dated approximately 15,000 BP.
http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/1985/rhinomammoth22xf8.jpg
It shows a mammoth with a falling man, and to the left, a rhinoceros with excrement in six small dots passing from him.
What I detest is excretion and I will not eat it…I will not be satisfied with filth.
Coffin Texts
This passage from the Egyptian Coffin Texts (Late Old Kingdom to Middle Kingdom texts found on coffins) describes the steward who does not want to be in imagination; he is not satisfied having ‘I’s unrelated to promoting presence, here called filth and excrement.
This verse explains the image of the rhinoceros, keyed as the lower self, who is excreting the sequence. The lower self is in control of the sequence at this point and the steward is falling back, failing to act. It is a failed sequence mouthed too weakly, without heart, and it cannot engage presence with it.
3) The third image is a Flute, from France, dated 34,000 BP. It is made from vulture bone.
The vulture is known for its ability to fly at high altitudes for long periods of time, and it became a symbol of Long BE in the Egyptian School. Tutankhamun had a cobra head and a vulture head on his golden mask, Short Be and Long BE.
The flute made of vulture bone has four holes—after Long BE, sustain the four wordless breaths.
Robert called it the Magic Flute.
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/1473/838prehistoricflute2bv0.jpg
By self sufficient, I am including the paying of a living wage, health insurance and retirement for employees/owners.
Bruce, I don’t think Apollo Arts was involved in the murals at Galleria. I could be wrong.
Another exampe of “fishing” for sacred teaching, or Sacred Teaching in the making.
Let’s collect all your random I’s, then have Robert and Asaf regurgitate them, then stage a meeting and make sure it’s filmed and then printed as “Thoughts from the Teacher”- and here’s our new “sacred teaching” for sale!
How can anyone in their sane mind take this “teaching” seriously…
“Dear Friends,
We are attempting to understand the esoteric meaning of the Zodiac. Our aim is to understand how it relates to the sequence of six work ‘I’s-the essence of the system-rather than life’s psychological interpretations of the signs.
A few initial observations: There are twelve signs in the zodiac, roughly corresponding to the twelve months in a year. This suggests that they occur in time, in sequence, where one follows another. At this point, however, we do not know why twelve and not six. Another instance we see a sequence of twelve is in the Egyptian teaching, in the twelve hours of the Amduat, where the night bark travels through the twelve hours of the night before emerging into the daylight hours. Note that there are also twelve hours of daylight, suggesting long BE lasts as long as the steps it took to reach it-although at this point we are only presuming this and are not certain whether or not this is the right interpretation.
In a school, it is enough that one student make a connection for the whole to benefit, as has been the case several times since we began working with the keys. We would therefore like to invite any suggestions and insights you have that can shed more light into the esoteric meaning of the Zodiac. Keep in mind that ultimately the answers are simple and obvious once revealed.
If you have any relevant thoughts on this subject, please send them to xxx…
Thank you,
Asaf.”
To Old Fish In The Sea – 14/39
In the first part of your post I thought we were experiencing history in the making; a former member addressing a current member without being condescending, obscene, insulting, mocking, attacking one’s mental health, preaching, or any number of lapses in decorum. But even with the faltering conclusion your post arrives at it still makes my top ten for civility coming from your camp to mine.
Former members like to use the term “group think” (FoF think); well there is such a thing as blog think. It is characterized, amoung other things, by the unrelenting notion that if the FoF did not work for them (former students) it does not work for anyone. If they ultimately did not find it to be real it is not real. And that the only thing seperating former members from current members is that with current members the “fog of devotion” has not lifted yet, and once it does they too will add the prefix “former” to their FoF designation.
What can be the basis for that thinking? Could it be a feature that starts with the letter V? Or just an extreme desire to get back at the person/organization that “damned” them with their leaving ?
Here is the most dubious aspect of blog think. Former students are telling people like myself, Siddiq and GOlb (the only three supporters who have posted in the last month or so) what WE are experiencing. No matter what we say regarding the school working for us they counter with “you only think like this because you are flawed, lying or lagging behind. I didn’t experience this when I was there so you can’t have either.”
This is very different from what Siddiq writes or what I write (GOlb can at times get a little more “in your face,”
God bless him).
We basically are saying that the school works for us, and often we try our best to articulate why it works in a reasonable, even toned manner. We do not insult or mock those we respond to. We are relating our experiences, not trying to dictate to former students what they ought to be experiencing. There is a very big difference in the two approaches.
Here is my question to you: can you, as a former member, live with the possibility that “maybe I missed something about the experience, maybe an attitude prevented me from seeing another side of everything?”
If one really valued the truth above all else one could live with and embrace many possibilities, even things one doesn’t want to be true. I exist with the possibility of living without the school. So far it has not come to pass.
Do you really think that the FoF could exist for 38 years and be thriving as I write if it were only what its harshest critics say it is? It’s the only organization I know of that lays claim to be a conscious school of awakening in the tradition of all the ancient schools (it’s the only organization to name those other schools) and people here say it’s the very opposite of this, an evil cult.
Can it survive this long and thrive being so purely everything it claims not to be and nothing it claims to be? If this is so it’s “lottery” odds or better for it to have survived this long. If it’s true that “God can forgive anything but hypocrisy” how could a higher power allow its name to be taken in vain for so long and to hurt so many?
Can an auto shop remain in business for long if it does not fix the problem of the cars put in its care, and the owners even find new problems when they pick up the car?
One of the biggest obstacles to presence is that we simply do not remember to do it; hours go by without even having the ‘I’ to engage presence. On the other hand being present is what Robert relentlessly speaks about, day in and day out, by the minute.
Are we to seriously believe it’s possible for him to always remember to speak about being present but not to be actually doing it? What’s being said on this blog by former students is impressive for its sheer unlikelyhood.
Regarding the last part of your post; it fails because you then start telling me what my reality is, what I’M experiencing. This is where you lose all credibility.
I am not afraid in the sense you allude to. I am afraid of a life spent in the second state; that is why I stay in the FoF. That is why I do feel free. There are no fetters on me so there are none to remove. I don’t get depressed. I don’t suffer from insomnia. “A clear conscience does not fear midnight”.
The only limits placed on my ability to be present are those that come from within. The school does not confine me in any manner. It frees me in every manner. It works for me; why should I leave it. I want more of it. I want it to be more of what it is and I want myself to be able to experience it more deeply.
To The Followers Whom It May Concern:
Please be informed that despite the years of your tireless dedication to the Fellowship of Friends you are and have been supporting a corrupt and licentious organization with your money, time, and labor. As with everyone else on the planet, there are consequences to your actions for which as adults you are responsible. Pleading ignorance is not a defense, it is simply a buffer. Please consider that if the Fellowship of Friends were to become financially stressed or insolvent, you may lose your employment, if you are employed by this organization. Please be advised that it may be in your interest to secure other means of employment as soon as possible and to plan for your financial independence. If you are in this country on a religious visa, it may also be in your interest to prepare for the eventuality that your visa be revoked.
To those followers in legitimate business for themselves on the property owned bt the FOF, please be advised that there may be unforeseen financial consequences for doing business with the FOF that as a business owner you may wish to consider and plan for.
To Those Willing to Dedicate Their Time and Effort:
Here’s what I propose as a possible course of action:
Commit time and energy to showing up at the perspective ‘student’ meetings in your home town and hand-out flyers with this blog address and pertinent information to provide a balance to what is presented in the meetings so the public can make a more informed choice whether or not to join. This effort would need to be both a national and an international effort to be effective, since apparently most of the new ‘membership’ is coming from abroad.
If the vineyard in still owned and operated by the FOF, the stores that sell the wine as well as the buyers of that wine can be informed of its origin and the circumstances of its production to be able to make a more informed choice about whether or not to buy those products.
All suppliers of material goods, foodstuffs, or any other support items, including financial instruments such as loans or credit lines for the FOF can be informed of the nature of this organization and its practices. This will allow them to make informed choices as to whether they wish to continue doing business with the FOF.
As Ben Franklin said, “Small strokes fell great oaks.”
Let your conscience be your guide. That’s what ‘C’-influence is really all about.
Howard, in #14-163, you say:
“Here is the most dubious aspect of blog think. Former students are telling people like myself, Siddiq and GOlb (the only three supporters who have posted in the last month or so) what WE are experiencing.”
And in #14-138 you told me, “I don’t really believe that you don’t believe in an afterlife. You are just distancing yourself from FoF/REB”.
Notice anything?
“We are attempting to understand the esoteric meaning of the ten fingers. Our aim is to understand how they relate to the sequence of six work I’s the essence of the system rather than life’s anatomical interpretations.
Counting from left to right there are ten, five on each hand roughly corresponding to the ten toes. Each follows the other in a sequence suggesting they exist in time. At this point however we do not understand why ten and not six.
We would therefore like to invite any suggestions and insights you have that can shed more light into the esoteric meaning of the ten fingers. Keep in mind that ultimately the answers are simple and obvious once revealed.
If you have any relevant thoughts on this subject, please send them to xxx…
Thank you, Asaf.”
Hello Howard, thank you for articulating so well the frequent hypocrisy of this Blog-think.
Thanks for being here.
As you write, sometimes hours go by without a single thought of presence…what many bloggers do not grasp is that because of this we are all so much more alike (out in the fog) than our lower self likes to accept. The only difference is which direction do we want to go?
Siddiq
Howard Carter post 163 said about the FOF.
‘It’s the only organisation I know of that lays claim to be a concious school of awakening in the tradition of all the ancient schools.( it’s the only organisation to name those schools ) and people here say it’s the very opposite of this,an evil cult.’
The very notion of the ‘tradition of ancient schools’ is a product of Burton and the FOF so no wonder they would be the ‘only organisation to name those schools’
The reason you are here HC presenting the same flawed ludicrous ideas over and over is for the same reason Peter I. tirelessly works on updating the FOF entry on wikipedia, even to the extent of knowingly lying through his teeth.( his revisionist interpretation of the the failed prophecys of Burton ) .The FOF is starting to unravel before your eyes,people are leaving in large numbers and you are desperate to try and push the old phony ‘King of Hearts’ FOF spiel through all of this in the hope that some gullible and needy person will fall for it and join.( very few are joining anymore).After all.it worked in past and it’s the only song you can sing.
Whalerider–”To Those Willing to Dedicate Their Time and Effort”–there are no such people Whalerider, is that not obvious?
This blog is made up of people who either woke up some 10-20-30 years to find out about a little sex or whose favorite weapon is the keyboard–give me a break!
Mole, once again you are wrong, just check the membership numbers before posting your lies. Membership is around 2 thousand, just as it was 6 months ago.
“All suppliers of material goods, foodstuffs, or any other support items, including financial instruments such as loans or credit lines for the FOF can be informed of the nature of this organization and its practices. This will allow them to make informed choices as to whether they wish to continue doing business with the FOF.”
So deranged cult members should not be allowed to eat, drink and have a credit card?
Get real folks!
To Laughing Love
“Howard:
You say:
“It makes perfect sense to me that it takes a soul more than one lifetime to “get it right”; that’s why I rejected the world religion of Christanity.”
Yet the only response you could offer me was to quote Jesus Christ.”
Chirst has nothing to do with Christianity; I assumed that was a given.
Ryan–great example of “blog-think”–belittle everything your little mind cannot grasp. then pretend to be funny and clever.
Siddiq, – Great example of FOF think. Defend madness at all costs and belittle anyone who sees it for what it is.
By the way you sound increasingly desperate.
Siddiq, in #14-132 you say:
“…there are in excess of 1,000 dedicated current students”
and in #14-170 you say, “Membership is around 2 thousand…”
Now I know that both can be true, but the implication of the first quote is that the numbers are rather closer to 1,000 than 2,000, wouldn’t you agree? No wonder we are confused!
Just teasing!
Regards to you, I appreciate your doggedness for its own sake, and Howard’s too. Tell them you deserve a raise!
Ames
P.S. Are you sure (I mean really ’sure’) s/he’s not a ‘former student’ providing a foil for us?
(Still teasing!)
Howie,
Your organisation is not thriving, it is in the first throes of a lingering but inevitable demise. Neither do you or Siddiq any longer represent the voice of the majority of its members. You are merely the voice of the tumor which will kill it.
“Could a higher power allow its name to be taken in vain for so long and to hurt so many?”
Finally and obviously the answer is, NO!
Thank Goodness,
Ryan.
Siddiq,
I got it at last! Sorry, I’m slow, its past my bedtime. Maybe you meant that there are in excess of 1,000 dedicated students out of a total of 2,000. That is, nearly a thousand are not dedicated, maybe wavering, maybe ready to move on July 15th? Is that what you meant?
(still teasing!)
Good night, I hope you rest well and arise tomorrow refreshed and ready for the fray!
Ames
And tell the Ouspensky office I mean it about the raise!
Howard (163)
Although you may not be conscious of your utter arrogance in your posts, it is always present. You point to Golb as someone who is in one’s face, but you have consistently met and exceeded his attitude.
You’ve suddenly shifted into a “poor us” attitude that is highly unlike any of your previous posts.
You are participating on a discussion board in which former members are talking about their true experience with the Fellowship of Friends and its leader, Robert Burton. That is your choice.
If you wish to discuss your ideas with Fellowship members, it is probably a good idea to start a discussion board for them.
You will find compassion and attempts at understanding here because we’ve all been where you are, but you will not find any who agree that your school is a positive oasis.
It seems that suddenly and mysteriously that is your desire.
The responses you receive here are filled with good will. Mostly, the ex-members are polite and understanding, although I admit that some use expletives and sarcasm which is really not effective (me included). Still, your comments are so filled with logical lapses that it is very easy to desire to slap you silly with your own brand of communication.
In example, who knows if we are reincarnated. I hope so much that we are, although I question why I have that desire. It’s a very fun notion. Still, there is no possible way of knowing if that is true or not. That is one of the most fundamental human enigmas. We simply don’t know and wish we did.
No human being on earth, regardless of religious faith, knows, for sure, that this is an indisputable truth.
It is true that I want so much for that magical thinking to be true. I want it! I’d love to come back as…as…what? I’m not sure, but I like butterflies and jelly fish. But I’m a human being and no human being knows absolutely that they will arrive anew on this planet in a different form. (A flower? Well manicured socialite?)
Unfortunately, the only time I will happily be able to know that I am about to start life anew as a nascent being on this planet is when someone says to me after I’m dead, “You’re in luck. You did great last time. This time you’re going to be an octopus.” Or, perhaps, “Wow, you were in that great school and you left. You’re definitely going to suffer for that! You’re going with the other billions straight into a bilious hellfire. You had your chance, you wanton tart, and gave it up.”
Until then, I just need to explore endlessly in whatever form I’m given. Wanton tart and all.
It’s all so Catholic!
Peace,
LL
Howard (172)
Ah, this one needs an immediate response.
Howard says:
“Christ has nothing to do with Christianity; I assumed that was a given.”
Christianity: “Christ ianity”.
Oh my goodness. I’m suddenly realizing that this is an idiot I’m responding to seriously.
Wow. I’m done.
LL
To Ames – 165
“Howard, in #14-163, you say:
“Here is the most dubious aspect of blog think. Former students are telling people like myself, Siddiq and GOlb (the only three supporters who have posted in the last month or so) what WE are experiencing.”
And in #14-138 you told me, “I don’t really believe that you don’t believe in an afterlife. You are just distancing yourself from FoF/REB”.
Notice anything?”
I didn’t say I don’t have opinions. How can anyone write a word without taking a stand of some sort? What I’m speaking about in 163 is a far cry from what you cite. I think you know that.
Hello ~ 158 Sharon
Uno – don’t blame Cathie – that’s me, Sharon.
__________________________
Yes, I caught that one Sharon; I had Cathie’s name in my coconut juice prior to reading your post, things got swished around; sorry for the mix up… The sheik canned my response to you I think because I mentioned where you live. How are you and the ‘big family’ doing?
As far as I can recall I didn’t blame you for anything; just attempting to be an old friend, anonymously, yet still a friend, particularly in July and August, these months will be particularly strong during 2007: this first week of July have already proven to be one coconut shy of Apocalypse Now.
Take care.
_____________________
Love to you all.
Thanks for your answers Howard. You made a number of points and I cannot deal with them all tonight so I will chose two of the most important.
You said:
Here is my question to you: can you, as a former member, live with the possibility that “maybe I missed something about the experience, maybe an attitude prevented me from seeing another side of everything?
Howard my experience in the Fellowship was pretty good. I don’t think I missed a lot, but what do I know.
I do not and cannot know what you, Robert or others experience, or what I might have missed. I can only guess based on what I see. I have to weigh the evidence available to me, and what goes on inside you and others can only be determined from what I can observe about you, filtered by my own features and experience.
Could I have missed something? Yes, but I think I weighed the evidence available to me pretty carefully. Simply put, Robert’s values did not synchronize with mine. Was it an attitude that limited my vision? Perhaps. I like to think that it was not an attitude but the wind. The wind said it was time for me. The wind blew in new perceptions. I did not leave because I did not like the Fellowship but more to experience something new. It was time for a new world view, a whole new set of experiences and states – a world view, where I was no longer a follower. I wanted a world without walls.
I did not see myself as conscious, but after over 30 years I wanted to try to see myself in a whole new way. I had given and received what I could, and my life was running out. If I was going to perceive the world differently I needed to get started.
I was ready to gamble. I was ready to try trusting myself to find my own values. I felt that this was the only way to move forward. I was stuck and I was curious to see what I would come to value and I was not identified with any result in particular.
Once I reached this state I could not support Robert any more. I think my other posts and the one about the Baby in the bath water explain my feelings on that.
Could I have missed something? Of course. but I turned over every rock that I could for a long time. I did receive something but at some point I wanted something new. Would another 30 years have changed that. Who can know but I sincerely doubt it.
You said,
“I am afraid of a life spent in the second state; that is why I stay in the FoF.”
This is exactly what I meant when I said you were afraid. I took a guess based on my own experience. This is exactly what every student fears. My experience so far indicates that this fear leads to a subtle identification which blocks higher centers. It also allows you to continue to support some pretty shady dealings.
Best wishes Howard,
We each have chosen our path and will pay in our own way. Maybe someday the wind will actually change for you and blow you out or perhaps it will blow me back in. Somehow I doubt either will occur but I meant what I said earlier – the fence is imaginary. In the moment, we all have to deal with the same things. But we each must go with our conscience or we will not move forward. Do not let fear, even fear of the 2nd state dictate your conscience. There is nothing to fear.
I turned to a page in Rumi’s book of poems the today, saying first, “What would you like to say to the Fellowship of Friends”… Honest Abe, cross my heart, this is the page I turned to… (the whole prose continues onto the next page for those wiseacres who are thinking that I might have chosen the one page of two that suits the blogs spirit best.)
From Rumi (pages 318-319, The Soul of Rumi)
To: The Fellowship of Friends
“The thief unties the turban as he runs, and rag pieces fall on the road. He stands holding
a single tatter. “You’ve cheated me.” “Yes, but at the same time I warned you of the fraud.”
This is how the world speaks to us. It delights in spring blossoms, even as they fall.
“Come tast me,” say the senses, and the next sentence is,
“Leave. This is nothing much.”
The young prince of the morning, the pride of everyone with his glistening body, fumbles along
at evening, laughed at, unable to remember his name. Smell the aroma of beautiful food, then
go to the latrine and sniff. “What happened to you?”
Your dung will answer,
“My beauty was a lure, a trick to get inside you.”
Every matter particle does the same
enchantment. Try to see the beginning and end at once. Would you willingly wear manacles
just because they’re made of gold? Admire the genius of an artist, but also watch what
happens to him or her in old age, how the expert craftsman’s craft diminshes. Listen
The double music of existence; Bu Masaylim’s false claims
to the song of the flower and the song of the thorn blending. “Buy this!”
“Keep away!” “I’m ready now!” “Beloved, we are gathered here today… ” If you can’t hear
this double music, it’s difficult to recognize what’s real.
With people you can look at
their teachers. Who do they follow? Each foal has a mare that feeds it. What nourishes
humans comes from higher. Donkeys drink from underneath. Magicians can be confusing, but
when Moses arrives and throws down the rod that becomes a dragon, how do the trick bowls
look then? When something that alive comes, illusory matters fade. They quit bragging!
A body’s death, even, is beautiful to those who see with the soul’s eye. Every genuine
form of money has a counterfeit counterpart. Bu Masaylim, who always added wrong
elements to any situation, said, “I am the guide of souls, beyond religion.” Reply
to such claims, “Don’t act like you know things to get money and power.” Follow a true
sheikh’s candle. The full moon shows the traveler where to go. When it’s night, take
a lantern, so you can tell a falcon from a crow. Crows sometimes learn to mimic the
language of falcons, as a human being can make the hoopoe’s call, but without Solomon’s
secret within the sound. Distinguish a natural cry from an artificial. Shameless people
memorize the words of gnostics and dervishes. This is the was every great civilization
falls apart, by ignoring the difference between sandalwood and pine. Discernment! Everyone has
discernment, but greed obscures the subtlety. Physical blindness brings God’s mercy.
Blindness from wanting, nothing. Christ’s crucifixion is one thing. The self-crucifixion of jealousy, something else. Fish, don’t keep staring at the hook. Remember where appetites
lead. Notice every set of eyes – the ox, the one-eyed man leading his donkey, the true
human being – …
______________________________
No one owns the favors of the gods, no one…
After turning to these pages, I am in awe, particularly in reference to the Sheik… utter wordlessness now, a deep thank you to Rumi for yet another lighning bolt within this storm.
_________________________________
Love to you all.
#166
Ryan O’Poo
“We are attempting to understand the esoteric meaning of the ten fingers………….
At this point however we do not understand why ten and not six…………………
If you have any relevant thoughts on this subject, please send them to xxx…
Thank you, Asaf.”
To Asaf,
Just chop off the extra four fingers.
Aline
To Howard Carter (#14-163)
Some points about your post. You may actually be quite fortunate; you are having some experiences out of the cocoon, and you are getting plenty of ‘photographs’ for free. If you don’t value them because they are free, press the PayPal button and make a donation! The ‘standard’ of decorum is only your standard, so try ‘separating’ from the attachment. Of course there is a commonality of experience of those who have left; to one degree or another, we have all ‘been there and done that’. And of course, you are completely correct, your religion may be right (whatever that means), down to the last particular.
So much depends on viewpoint, doesn’t it? I like your analogy of the autoshop, and you put it well. But—my viewpoint is precisely the opposite of yours; that the autoshop has been fronted by a slick salesman, that it has in fact not succeeded in making a single honest repair (“…but we’ll fix that in the next lifetime, meanwhile, park the car in the back lot permanently to make room for new marks”) and that customers, having left, rarely return for a tuneup. Now you are complaining because we have reported the shop to the Better Business Bureau, and are spreading the word? Because we are picketing the building and trying to warn potential customers that the mechanics aren’t qualified, that in fact the customers have to get down in the pit without an instruction manual and try to make repairs themselves in the dark?
I’m taking the liberty of speaking for the rest of your critics here. My guess is that the majority believe that your organization has existed for 38 years and ‘thrived’ because of the secrecy surrounding so many of its actions. Now more light is being shed on the dark parts, I doubt it will last another 38 years. But, we are a pitiful few, as Siddiq has noted, and arrayed against us are the mighty gods (hope you haven’t pissed off the original 44 by abandoning them!). It is really a David and Goliath situation, and we really can have no hope, if you and your leader are right. So cheer up, in another 38 years you’ll have been proven right, and we backsliders will all be sizzling nicely (is that the new paradigm, or is it still that we’ll be rocks on the moon?)
Howard, I do appreciate your efforts, I truly believe they have served us, and you, well, they have helped clarify the thinking of the readers on both ‘sides’ (whatever that means). You, too, should get a raise in pay.
So, thank you very much for playing your part so well!
Ames
To Mole – 168
“The very notion of the ‘tradition of ancient schools’ is a product of Burton and the FOF so no wonder they would be the ‘only organisation to name those schools”
The Fourth Way was founded on this “notion.”
Siddiq #170
I have checked the membership numbers…….you are the one that is either lying or misinformed.
Siddiq:
“…a little sex…”
You’re kidding, right?
“…whose favorite weapon is the keyboard”
Fool, you underestimate the power of the pen. Now it’s the keyboard, the prime weapon of choice.
“…give me a break!”
That’s exactly what we intend…to give you, HC, and the other ‘followers’ a break from your delusions of grandeur, your manacles of gold. Your organization and leader have harmed and swindled enough people. You have been warned. The writing is on the wall.
Rumi has spoken.
Why else you have been newly ‘directed’ to study him?
Allah is my witness!
Two men, both seriously ill, occupied the same hospital room.
One man was allowed to sit up in his bed for an hour each afternoon to help drain the fluid from his lungs.
His bed was next to the room ‘ s only window.
The other man had to spend all his time flat on his back.
The men talked for hours on end.
They spoke of their wives and families, their homes, their jobs, their involvement in the military service, where they had been on vacation.
Every afternoon, when the man in the bed by the window could sit up, he would pass the time by describing to his roommate all the things he could see outside the window.
The man in the other bed began to live for those one hour periods where his world would be broadened and enlivened by all the activity and color of the world outside.
The window overlooked a park with a lovely lake.
Ducks and swans played on the water while children sailed their model boats. Young lovers walked arm in arm amidst flowers of every color and a fine view of the city skyline could be seen in the distance.
As the man by the window described all this in exquisite details, the man on the other side of the room would close his eyes and imagine this picturesque scene.
One warm afternoon, the man by the window described a parade passing by.
Although the other man could not hear the band – he could see it in his mind ‘ s eye as the gentleman by the window portrayed it with descriptive words.
Days, weeks and months passed.
One morning, the day nurse arrived to bring water for their baths only to find the lifeless body of the man by the window, who had died peacefully in his sleep.
She was saddened and called the hospital attendants to take the body away.
As soon as it seemed appropriate, the other man asked if he could be moved next to the window. The nurse was happy to make the switch, and after making sure he was comfortable, she left him alone.
Slowly, painfully, he propped himself up on one elbow to take his first look at the real world outside.
He strained to slowly turn to look out the window besides the bed.
It faced a blank wall.
The man asked the nurse what could have compelled his deceased roommate who had described such wonderful things outside this window.
The nurse responded that the man was blind and could not even see the wall.
She said, “Perhaps he just wanted to encourage you.”
Epilogue:
There is tremendous happiness in making others happy, despite our own situations.
Shared grief is half the sorrow, but happiness when shared, is doubled.
If you want to feel rich, just count all the things you have that money can ‘ t buy.
“Today is a gift, that is why it is called The Present.”
I know Howard Carter.
He has Vanity, Power and Fear features. Mars-Jovial.
He also has a great sense of humor and believes in magic. He sees Magic everywhere he goes. And if you don’t argue with him he will be your best friend (especially if you are a woman).
Vanity, power and fear…oh my.
We’re not in Kansas anymore toto.
Tell me its not old Nick! Cy
unoanimo,
Mysterious are the workings of the soul, eh? Every once in a while I find myself in the path of one of those lightning bolts too.
“When something that alive comes, illusory matters fade. ”
Thanks.
Sharon 154: “So here’s a message to my friends who might be trapped – I have room, I love you, you are welcome to my help. You can find me on the Greater Fellowship website – send your request to Janna 14;104.”
Excellent message. The Greater Fellowship website keeps growing. Anyone who leaves won’t lose contact with friends, in fact many from the past are now popping up. The worldwide network of connections is being reconstructed outside the FoF.
Regardsing the FoF’s demise: maybe yes, maybe no. For sure it’s very vulnerable right now – a small push could collapse the whole pack of cards. Personally, like Sharon, I wouldn’t want to be involved in a lawsuit, but it’s certainly possible that someone might feel strongly enough to initiate one. Perhaps more likely is financial collapse. FoF finances were always a mess, even in the best of times, because of RB’s insatiability.
Howie 162: Nice post. Though I disagree with you about almost everything, you do put a coherent case for those who choose a path like yours. One thing I do agree with you about is that the obnoxious attacks on your postings are childish and unnecessary.
Siddiq 167: “As you write, sometimes hours go by without a single thought of presence…what many bloggers do not grasp is that because of this we are all so much more alike (out in the fog) than our lower self likes to accept.”
This problem arises for you because you believe you need to have a “thought of presence”. You don’t. You’re only in the fog because you think you are – it’s all in your mind.
Siddiq 170: “Membership is around 2 thousand, just as it was 6 months ago.”
Not for long. More and more are leaving, and many more are considering it. Many are hanging on for a while because they’ve been told they can pay either no or very low donations.
Somebody (#14-190), if Howard is Nick Sp—-ding, then he seems to have lost the sense of humor I thought I observed all those years ago. Maybe the weight of buffers erected since then squashed it? The posts are notable for lack of humor and indeed much passion. But, the rest does fit…
Nick S…the little man behind the curtian. Shame on you!…scaring everyone like that. You are a bad, bad man!
Behold! The broom of the wicked witch of the west!
The Water of knowledge melts the witch of fear.
Followers of Oz! You already have everything you need inside you…your intellect, your heart, and your courage.
You have suffered long enough! You can leave any time you wish. The ruby slippers already on your feet are your walking shoes.
And there is no place like the present.
Good morning Mole ~
You wrote ~
“187 Mole.
Siddiq #170
I have checked the membership numbers…….you are the one that is either lying or misinformed.”
______________________________
LOL… after such a ‘checkmate’ usually something on the board falls, like the current membership number itself (?)
___________________
l.t.y.a.
Unoanimo and Bruce, what lovely quotes. Words do carry energy! I also enjoyed the story that retroactively appeared at post 14-10, I mention it because some of you might have missed it.
Since there has been recent mention of ancient teachings, I’d like to contribute to the discussion with these excerpts from “The Secret Oral Teachings in Tibetan Buddhist Sects” by Alexandra David-Neel:
“The Buddha insisted strongly on the necessity of examining the propositions put forward by Him, and of understanding them personally before accepting them as true.
The ancient texts leave no doubt on this point:
“Do not believe on the strenght of traditions even if they have been held in honour for many generations and in many places; do not believe anything because many people speak of it; do not believe on the strength of sages of old times; do not believe that which you have yourselves imagined, thinking that a god has inspired you. Believe nothing which depends only on the authority of your masters or priests. After investigation, believe that which you have yourselves tested and found reasonable, and which is for your good and that of others.” (Kalama Sutta)
And from the same book, on the subject of death and reincarnation:
“The answer to those that imagine that Buddhist salvation consists in the annihilation of the ‘ego’, at the death of the ‘person’, is that, as Buddhism denies the existence of an ‘ego’ or a soul, whatever be the name given to it, there cannot be any question of the annihilation of that which is held to be non-existent.”
“In reality there is annihilation but it is that of false views, of ignorance, and more exactly of the belief in the existence of an ‘ego’ which is independent, homogeneous and permanent, a belief which deforms our understanding of the world in deforming our mental vision.”…
“…The well-informed dreamer may cease taking pleasure in dreaming. He may stop imitating those dreamers who, enjoying the phantasmagoria which they watch and in which they play a part, persist in wishing to remain asleep. In truth, why do the dreamers fear awakening, why do they imagine in advance other dreams of hells and heavens which await them after death? It is because they fear that with the disappearance of the ‘images seen in dreams’, the illusory ‘Ego’ which is an integral part of them will disappear. They have not yet perceived that the real face of this chimerical ‘Ego’ is the face of Death. As long as the idea of this impermanent Ego lasts, this simple mass of elements which various causes have brought together and which other causes will separate, death also subsists. The Dhammapada alludes to the disappearance of this phantom from the field of our mental activity when it refers to whom ‘death does not see’, that is, he for whom death does not exist.
“The awakening is liberation, salvation. The Secret Teachings propose no other object than this to their pupils. “To wake up…The Buddhas have done nothing else than this, and it is this awakening which has made them become Buddhas.”
Also, in case he is still looking for examples of a sequence of twelve, maybe someone could suggest to Asaf to check the Buddhist theory of the “Interdependent originations”, also known as the doctrine of the twelve causes, which is known to contain exoteric and esoteric layers of meaning.
Love and good luck to all!
Thank you Laura.
Tha Blog Buzz Part 1
Hello ~ 190 somebody
“I know Howard Carter.
He has Vanity, Power and Fear features. Mars-Jovial.
He also has a great sense of humor and believes in magic. He sees Magic everywhere he goes. And if you don’t argue with him he will be your best friend (especially if you are a woman).”
_________________________________
You must be a Russian female (?) Italian?
It’s a little humorous because as soon as I read “especially if you are a woman”… the name everyone is a buzz with just popped in my mind, without any mental-ing at all on my part…funny how the brain is just that kinda little intuitive coconut.
BTW… Nick doesn’t have a drop of Power, unless he’s borrowed it’s outward form in some ‘act’… I know him well, the V and F are spot on; usually Solar-Mars-Jovials don’t have much room for the earth hugging Power feature, there are exceptions I am sure; Patricia S. for instance.
Welp. If that is who HC is, then this explains allot; not that we need to much more to understand where HC is getting his coconut milk from.
BTW…since I am on the subject of HC007, after re-reading some of Siddiq’s postings, I was wrong, I really thought I knew who ‘he’ was, even that I had met him because of certain references in our conversation to ‘certain’ blog key-phrases and subjects… little hint-y playing between the two of us concerning identities, etc. Though now that Siddiq has reached stage Orange in his bottom of the barrel clawing, I do not recognize those nails across the blackboard… So, no, I can’t say I know Siddiq; yet, I must in some way.
Well Nick, if that is you, I can certainly understand your clinging now (not that it does not reflect all the dinosaurs clinging to the edge of the tar pits); I say this because I know your initial essence, and how Robert Burton has deeply exploited both your vanity feature and your self-pity, simultaneously, probably having convinced you that you’re working on yourself by fine turning your ‘daddy boy’ complex; only a rogue spirit-ego entity could do such a thing, while juggling your manhood eggs thirdly…
Yes, I am going out on a limb a bit here, I vowed to not write to HC, yet, I am writing to Nickolas actually; particularly if HC is not Nick… so I feel alright about this little excursion to the hummingbird nest… LOL, do you recall, when the hummingbird flew into the galleria during a sunday meeting and Robert Burton ‘keyed it’… LOL, then hummingbirds were the rave at ‘Apollo’, hummingbirds everywhere, even diamond studded hummingbirds…
Yep, its seems fitting though, the hummingbird as the mascot of the Fellowship of Friends, after all, its the only bird that can fly backwards to avoid the ‘dangerous’ unknown.
Wow, well, not to forget, I said it before, my love goes out to you, yet, it’s gonna be a bit of the ‘tough love’ thing; in many ways the Fellowship of Friends has asked for all this, I just turned the valves horizontal this morning on the Nitrous oxide and methane mixture for the stealth locomotive, who does not smoke, checked the railroad running through the Fellowship property, everything looks good, no explosives, no sign of railroad spikes missing, no stigmata on the tracks…
Choo choo
___________________________
Love to you all.
Sheik:
A request. Would it be possible to “announce” posts that have been released after moderation?
e.g. “14-10 has been released from moderation”
Those of us using the time-saving “Control+Down” function to automatically go to the latest entry, are likely to miss those posts that are inserted far back in the discussion.
It’s unfortunate, because the moderated posts often represent new voices, or those we’ve missed for a while.
Thanks for your support.
Laura:
Thanks for bringing 14-10 to our attention!
Hey Ames, thanks, you are quite the teaser, but I just picked the number 1,000 because there are at least that much seriously dedicated students, this leaves room for some to to join or leave, and then there are newer students.
I have directly checked the membership numbers and it is what I said it was, still almost 2000–note that Mole refuses to say what the number is, just the comments are that “massive amounts are leaving”-type vague. It is simply not the case.
So then I asked for that raise…they told me to collect directly from you, Unanimo and Bruce. So how about a little “Penpal” donation to me old buddy?
Siddiq
Unanimo, do you know if I know that you know, if I know that Uno Animo, etc etc.? If you are who I think I am–we are in wonderful company! Good luck to us–dont forget to use the Penpal donation to keep me in business and I will do the same…
RN This problem arises for you because you believe you need to have a “thought of presence”. You don’t. You’re only in the fog because you think you are – it’s all in your mind.
I thought you have to have the initial impulse, otherwise we stay in our imagination, identification, etc., what do you think?
S.
Post 203 ~ Thanks for helping us to verify your stage ORANGE.
200
“usually Solar-Mars-Jovials don’t have much room for the earth hugging Power feature, there are exceptions I am sure; Patricia S. for instance.”
Solar-Mars-Jovials…Patricia, sorry, I don’t think so. I love Patricia, have known her for a LONG time, and have a very different opinion. She’s one of the members I wish only the best for, bless her. Unless there a two Patricia S.’s.
202
Don’t include me. I don’t think you should be paid at all.
Sorry Bruce, but I have to ask you again to make a PenPal donation immediately. Make it worth my while, I may just leave this blog at this rate of pay. You all would be very sorry if only Howard is left to take shots at.
and Bruce don’t give me that Blog-think snappy “eat shit” reaction this time, will you?
“You all would be very sorry if only Howard is left to take shots at.”
You’re just chock full of wrong assumptions today my friend. I’ve made my donation, and stipulated that it not go for either war or siddiq.
Unanimo–Orange? how do you know my favorite color? yes, I am glad to see you!
eat shit.
209 I’m beginning to think you might be Collin. You’re very reminiscent of that snide, shit eating little jerk.
Bruce, you are once again describing what is inside of you.
Very glib, clever and inventive siddiq.
“Siddiq” seems to have a new persona.
Why not “I know you are but what am I”? And then take your ball and go home.
Siddiq, I regularly press the PenPal button. The machinery delivers mixed results, like the ‘New’ new math. If the Ouspensky office can’t afford a raise, you’ll have to go directly to Burton; he can certainly afford it. And when you do, specify cash, otherwise you’ll just get blue pills—and a request for a donation.
Siddiq, the current number of FOF is 1700 as I STATED IN A POST ON THE PREVIOUS THREAD.NOTHING VAGUE ABOUT IT.I ALSO GAVE MY SOURCE….LINDA T.
Seems like you are to ‘busy being present’ to take in whats in front of your face.Like words on a screen for instance.
And yes, I like to see your ass kicked here because you represent everything pnony about the FOF.You started off with your ‘King of hearts ‘ love- everyone -Mr Reasonable act but it’s falling apart now as witnessed by your last flurry of reactions.
Re: 192 cyclops
Tell me its not old Nick! Cy
Sources from inside the Pyle say HC is really
Henry K, aka Henry Ruth…..d.
Nick has a different mission, so they say.
Bruce,
I can guarantee Siddiq is not Collin. I’m not even sure Collin is Collin; he’s definitely not the person you describe, at least not now.
Also, yes, there are two Patricia’s with last names starting with S. I agree with your comment about your friend Patricia. From what I know about her, the other Patricia does not deserve to be slandered either. She just has a power feature, like a lot us do.
Another name inaccuracy I noted earlier was someone described as Allison, whose real name happens to be Alisanne. This one needs to be accurate, for posterity!
All these hidden identities are really weird. I for one would like to know who I’m listening to. If any of you masked people know me and trust me to give you respect and keep your confidence (including Siddiq and Howard Carter), please feel free to write to me privately. I might like to communicate something better not shared with +/-2000 of our closest friends. (Worth a try.)
With love to all both in and out,
joseph.granados@gmail.com
220
Pyle…is that like hemorrhoid?
Henry R………! I love Henry R……..d!
Is he still married to Grace?
221
Wouldn’t you think these people would have the balls to put a face to their names? Especially if they are so willing to defend their paths. I wonder what they’re afraid of, hmmmmmmmmm?
Do you mean that Collin is a completely different person now, internally? That would be wonderful. He was a very talented person, but to my way of thinking, he had some pretty fucked up priorities.
It’s TRUE, it’s all true…..well, ALMOST all true:
#190 Somebody:
I know Howard Carter.
He has Vanity, Power and Fear features. Mars-Jovial.
He also has a great sense of humor and believes in magic.
He sees Magic everywhere he goes. And if you don’t argue
with him he will be your best friend (especially if you are a
woman).
ALL TRUE except I am NOT Howard Carter…..and I am sure
this is good news for Howard….however he/she is……
and…good news for Un_anim_ because he has not broken
his vow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The “magic” on this page of the drama is that, before I read my name on the blog, I WAS formulating a post:
To ask Howard Carter
Siddiq…and
GOlb (if they are truly
current students)
to discontinue posting to the blog.
Since my many efforts to find who they were had failed,
using the Shiek as a private go-between off the blog
itself, was the next step…….until seeing my nam_ today….
My thoughts are these:
Dear Howard, Siddiq, and GOlb:
Please consider not participating in the blog….
Paraphrased:
Rodney Collin said that giving knowledge and attention
to issues esoteric, when someone is not asking for them,
violates the principles of esoteric transmission.
Robert has asked not to have discussion amongst
ourselves, about students who have left…This helps
to “leave their space clean.”
Robert has also asked that we avoid “unnecessary”
association with friends who have chosen to leave.
So, if you would consider that no one has been officially
asked to participate on the blog except probably the
legal people, and that considerable energy has gone
from you, into the blog that is confrontational and
provocative, maybe…. could you find it beneficial
to stand down?
Also, from the view that the blog may offer a doorway
to a place of peace and healing for pain and suffering
that you may consider real or imaginary, this is their
process, not yours. Give them their space. Generally,
people consult with those they trust before
making big decisions. If there were any confusions,
misgivings, or questions….they usually ask before
making choices……please consider “Hafiz, step
aside…It is you who are in the way.”
Also……Howard, Siddiq, and GOlb,
If you feel that the blog is a neutral space for discourse,
you may be naive…..
in addition to offering a doorway to peace and healing, it also
seems to offer another doorway to a “War Room” where
sincere and heartfelt plans for action are being made.
This truly being my first and last post……
Love to all who wish……
Ni_k
Personally, I no longer believe any of the anonymous identifications (or rather obfuscations). They just hide in their caves and spew shit.
It’s interesting that the Greater Fellowship site are always advertising their’s as the more, let’s say, Democratic, and we’re the Bush war mongers… LOL;
the little flurry of activity between Siddiq and Bruce happens all the time at Isis, in students homes and when Robert Burton thinks he’s gonna be late to get those cuff links or anything else that seems almost off his fingertips…
Those in the Fellowship of Friends who ‘think’ their beloved teacher does not express negativity or that the members of the beloved Greater Fellowship site do not express these dramas and negativity (whether its off or online) are very mistaken:
I like it in here, its honest and the material is not hiding behind a two way mirror;
do you guys remember those 1970’s mirrored glasses that were all the rave? They still give me the willies. BTW, Goethe had a real pet ‘peeve’ about the arrival of sunglasses; he detested them and would not speak to a person until they took their sunglasses off…
So, try hard, members of the Greater Fellowship site to not wear Ray Bans and please don’t hide behind the “…and we’ve not got the negativity thing’.
Of course you do, otherwise your vanity feature and good student syndrome would not still be stealing energy from your sex center to wiseacre such comparisons that no one with a hectare of human experience would ever take as sincere and a balanced picture of an evolving soul.
Shivapuri Baba said that meditation was for mad men; to try and make one’s meditation room away from every day environments, etc. Yes self remembering brews up all sorts of stuff: how do you think it is that Ouspensky said that “It gets worse before it gets better?” (I think the Fellowship of Friends has had that one covered for 35+ years).
Every soul has and will continue to wade through these ups and downs (inside and outside themselves); its where you land and what all this break dancing is about, where it goes in the moment, this to me is worthy of attention; actually everything is.
To me, the Greater Fellowship website needs to rethink their ‘Us and Them’ approach; it sounds very familiar, yes?
At least their aims are different; I simply see all this as a great opportunity to be conscious friends, not formator-ily conscientious.
Until you wade through the swamp of yourself, you’ll never
harvest lotus seeds. This is something the Fellowship of Friends has missed in a very big way so far as taking the next step to graduation; too caught up in Robert Burton’s report card to consider their own as legitimate.
A whole school could be founded on Rumi’s works alone;
he knew about graduation, particularly after Sham’s death.
______________________
Love to you all.
OK OK I will crawl back into my cave and do some drawing.
Perhaps it is time for some more “purchasing awakening”–facts… or…
I don’t see the Greater Fellowship network as “us and them” at all. It’s very inclusive. Many people both in and out. It’s like the positive half of this blog. Both are needed.
Maybe the blog is the “shadow” of the GF network. Both are worth study.
Whitman:
“I am large, I contain multitudes.”
Hello Joseph G. ~
slander?
Yes, I agree with you, we all have features, can’t get rid of our organs to spite our weight, can we?
You’re a pretty easing going spirit Joseph, take it easy, it’s July, no body is slandering anyone; unless you’re saying that pointing out one’s mechanics to assist oneself in understanding certain manifestations that need a little ‘work’ is something ‘personal’ enough to call ’slander’…
Can anyone slander your presence?
Certainly feelings of essence can be slandered, though I believe anyone working on themselves, after a bit of introspection, would be hard pressed to be hurt over the color of their replacement luggage, so long as the airport
put back all the good stuff you got while out of town.
Do you not agree?
I do not believe its possible to hurt the feelings of essence with objective knowledge, so long as one is loving the traveler, otherwise you get what is most practiced in the Fellowship of Friends, negative photographs, whew!
It is very rare; I would say 1 out of 20 photographs given are ‘real’; usually they’re the King of Clubs saying, “Get out of the way, I see you already.” or the King of Hearts saying, “Come my way, I have not seen you lately.”
And then there’s the feature-play, moaning and groaning through the flute of true personality spittle…
Wow, what a ride!
It’s good to see you again; I thought you had left us, so to speak…
_________________________
l.t.y.a.
to respond to 123 vera.mente
The will be no class action lawsuit as it requires dedicated attorneys. They must either believe there is a strong enough case and sufficient assets to make big money or have someone pay them. This is why I have repeatedly stated that it is the recently departed Fellowship members and currant students who have the power to cause a change. If a sufficient number complain to the government agencies like the office of the state attorney general or the United States atone for the Northern Ca. region then there can be a criminal investigation. If there is sufficient cause for an indictment and a trail then that material becomes available for a civil suit.
What grounds. Fraud, making false representations, violations of immigration laws, soliciting prostitution, embezzlement of funds, Falsifying financial records, conspiracy to defraud, make the whole board of directors libel.
The Fellowship is even a school of relative awakening. Robert Burton if he crystallized at all is a hasnamuss individual. The Fellowship still has devoted “students” whose whole life is centered on the belief in the divine consciousness of Robert Burton. Isis will be his shrine. I would not be surprised if there are already plans for his Mausoleum. Who knows what great miracles he will be attributed with. once he is dead.
Robert Burton is a clever criminal he has protected himself well. he is not immune though. Interesting what protects him the most is the lack of conscience and consciousness of Fellowship members past and present. Rather than wishing. Someone has to begin by filing complaints. I can’t do it the statute of limitations Is long past. Someone who left within the last years or who is a currant member.
220 Sam.1
Thanks for maybe putting my mind at rest. Id hate to think Nick had deteriorated so much. From discussions a long time ago he gave me the impression of knowing that things were far from ideal but being kind of stuck having burned his bridges. Mind you the slow insidious brain washing over the intervening years might corrupt anyone. I wonder what would have become of me if I hadnt become Burtons ” man of the moment” which ironically was what helped me to see the light.
I might be worse than the worst pro fofers, out using any spare time to bookmark.
As someone reminded us a little earlier “there but for fortune stand you or I” in this case I count myself fortunate for having escaped that fate.
Thank you Lord!
love to ALL Cy.
Dear Howard
Still thinking about your post number 138(?).
If Robert found a quote/ image in the schools of the past pointing to pre-life or after-life, he would point out that it refers to the stage before starting the sequence.
And key the after-life as prolonged presence..
Love
Dear ‘a former student’ ~
You wrote ~
“I can’t do it the statute of limitations Is long past. Someone who left within the last years or who is a currant member.”
_________________________________
Just a bit of info for all you X-men who ‘think’ you’re past the ’statute of limitations’…
The year and a day rule does not apply to writing letters to reveal the fraud and criminal aspects of the Fellowship of Friends; after all, they are still sentencing people for crimes that occurred 30 to 40 years ago; so, Whalerider, you’ve got some room to move a few objective tidal wave splashes too… particularly if it’s not for money, your individuality would be precious to ‘the class’ itself.
Nothing is over till it’s over; again, its not the money, its the exposure and cessation of more of the same, this is to me worth energy and conscience towards…
And there is a bankroll ‘a former student’… There’s no less than 40 million dollars worth of assets floating around in there; all paid by former students, which, BTW, their investments are still reaping profit (dividends), particularly in regards to the vineyard and RVW.
Federal procedure has several guidelines for maintaining a class action lawsuit, they are ~
1. the class must be so large that individual suits would be impracticable. (11,000 or less will do)
2. there must be legal or factual questions common to the class. (church members who are under Robert Burton’s thumb, treated as and milked like cult members.)
3. the claims or defenses of the representative parties must be typical of those of the class, and
(any non profit organization whose even been defrauded)
4. the representative parties must adequately protect the interests of the class. (non profit organizations or churches)
And get used to the phrase ‘de facto’…
BTW, Bruce, I was very innocently using Patricia S. as an example of a solar-mars-jovial who has ‘power’ in their luggage, unlike the majority; to me, all of us are walking Rembrandt paintings with eye holes cut out for us to see out of.
______________________________
BTW #2 ~ Although there may be certain limitations in a class action suit for very, very X-men, this does not mean there’s no incentive to participate; any assets liquidated to settle such a class action suit could be agreed by more current X-men to be shared or given as ‘gifts’ to their ‘elder’ X-men.
_________________
Love to you all.
Ryan, let me update you..
After the 6 of the sequence where you make efforts
(the 30 work I’s comprise the whole system)
comes the 4 breaths (prolonged presence).
That makes 10!
Then you can start again..
Bruce 213: “I’m beginning to think you might be Collin. You’re very reminiscent of that snide, shit eating little jerk.”
Joseph 221: “I can guarantee Siddiq is not Collin. I’m not even sure Collin is Collin; he’s definitely not the person you describe, at least not now…..From what I know about her, the other Patricia does not deserve to be slandered either.
Unoanimo 231: “no body is slandering anyone; unless you’re saying that pointing out one’s mechanics to assist oneself in understanding certain manifestations that need a little ‘work’ is something ‘personal’ enough to call ’slander’… Can anyone slander your presence? Certainly feelings of essence can be slandered, though I believe anyone working on themselves, after a bit of introspection, would be hard pressed to be hurt over the color of their replacement luggage, so long as the airport put back all the good stuff you got while out of town. Do you not agree?”
Uno, what on earth are you talking about? Bruce slandered Collin (to slander someone means to say something negative and untrue about them). Joseph called him on it. It’s simple really.
Siddiq 204: “I thought you have to have the initial impulse, otherwise we stay in our imagination, identification, etc., what do you think?”
That’s one way to look at it. An alternative is that you are not the “I” that thinks it’s in imagination, etc.
235
If it’s the Patrica S I’m thinking of, she’s nowhere near solar-mars-jovial. That was one of my points.
237 RN
Point taken, half way. It was negative. Untrue…that’s debatable. I lived with him. Of course it is subjective.
Regarding lawsuits…
It would seem pertinent to get some facts to help make an informed decision. Does the FoF still have insurance against malfeasance of officers any more? It seems that the insurance companies would have run out of patience (read, raise their rates sky–high or refuse coverage altogether) now they know that the lawsuits indicate a pattern, not an accident. What is happening financially? What is the cash flow now, and what is projected for the future under what scenarios? What will be the consequences if the students who are ‘behind in their payments’ and whose membership will expire July 15th actually fail to pony up? How long can stragglers be induced to stay with reduced payments, and how long can the organization afford that? When are land and property taxes due? (Yes, the million-dollar paintings are real property, and taxable, Virginia—if the county and state knows about them). How about payments on back taxes owed? When are the loan repayments due? Are there any other lawsuits or judgments pending? Do any readers—who know any of these answers for an absolute fact—care to share?
Next, is it a good idea at all to initiate a lawsuit? As far as timing, the Fellowship may not have ever been weaker, less able to defend itself. Still, don’t ever underestimate a cornered beast or a cornered combination of Burton/Goldman. Or the power Burton has to raise big money in an emergency. Anyway, just speaking to possible monetary compensation, it doesn’t seem worth it if there is no insurance, who’s going to pay if you win? (and, don’t forget, who’s going to pay if you lose?) An organization smothered in debt, mortgaged to banks and Abraham Goldman to the max? (ask, how did Abraham acquire his present property on the northwest side of the Shakespeare Meadow? Not by ‘pro bono’ work, for sure). And, there is a statute of limitations, though (I know, from bitter experience) that can be set aside.
How about the effect on your internal world? What is your motivation? Are you doing it to protect the innocents in future, as Unoanimo suggests? To get revenge for being made a patsy, or getting reamed, or in memory of Brian S. or others? The forces and their order in a triad make all the difference to the outcome. When one acts, one is responsible for the consequences, intended or otherwise.
Speaking for myself, I will not join a lawsuit, though I would help one in any way I am able—if I agreed with the aims. That is the way I have worked it out for myself with the knowledge I have, and the being I possess. Additional knowledge might change that viewpoint. I’d advise anyone thinking of a lawsuit to deeply study the external and internal ramifications. Unoanimo’s and A Former Student’s suggestions of getting a government agency to enter as the active force is certainly another, more indirect way; there might be more, and different types of, unforeseen consequences, though.
Hopefully one of us who is a lawyer could enter the conversation to add perspective and experience.
And the results and ramifications? Some have been stated before. Others suggest themselves: What would be the effects of the ‘martyrdom’ of Burton on the followers? That might produce the opposite of what some hoped for. What of those who have stated they would die or kill for Burton? What about the Suzanne and Michael Ad—s, or the Dorothy Bs of the FoF, what happens to them?
What a can of worms! It’s beyond me; I’m one of those who’s put salt instead of sugar on his cereal more than once!
Hi Unoanimo #229 – I just wondered where you got this impression about GFOF site: “To me, the Greater Fellowship website needs to rethink their ‘Us and Them’ approach”.
Sounds to me like something you’re imagining. (Well, you must be imagining, because to my knowledge you’re not even on this site).
Greater Fellowship site has other purpose than verbal fighting – it’s for connecting and reconnecting of friends. Like a big virtual party! You don’t go to a friendly party with intention to hit some faces, do you?
It is not for “us” or “them” – it’s for all, no boundaries between members and non-members and that’s what’s so cool about it! And yes, so far it’s been positive, friendly and just fun – like any good party should be, until someone gets really drunk and start fighting, screaming and breaking stuff…
Even the name (Greater Fellowship) seems rather INCLUSIVE to me, not an opposition. It’s rather like a big inclusive embrace, not a competition in size…
It’s not that someone is claiming or pretending to have “no negativity” – it’s just not expressed on GFOF site, simply because there has been no need for it there. Not because of some kind of control or set rules. People just feel friendly, glad to see each other – that’s it.
There is time to fight, and there is time to hug too. It’s all good.
I am sorry you’re missing out on it, but – as I told you in my e-mail – it’s not about anonymity or fear there.
E-mail me when you’re ready to show your face and I’ll invite you, with great pleasure!
Hey Rhino ~
Are you American?
You wrote to me ~
“Uno, what on earth are you talking about? Bruce slandered Collin (to slander someone means to say something negative and untrue about them). Joseph called him on it. It’s simple really.”
____________________________
“No body is slandering anyone” meaning no one in (my post) concerning Patricia, i.e., me, myself and I ‘and’ the guy who has my shadow under his feet.
_______________
Rhino, are you just being silly because it’s T.G.I.F.?
_______________
Wow, we are the July opportunist aren’t we: scale my friend, scale; have you not heard anyone refer to themselves as “no body here is…” in the past participle, referring to one’s self as a solo participant with another in the present, who has a ‘beef’ or a ‘bone to pick’ concerning their actions?
_____________________
l.t.y.a.
Bruce 240: thanks! These things are indeed subjective.
Uno 243: I still haven’t a clue what you’re trying to say (your writing style is so opaque), but I probably never will and we’re wasting space so let’s call it a day on this one.
In my #221 “slander” was probably too strong a word. I regret using it, and was not taking aim at Bruce.
I don’t have any issues with Bruce or the what he says. It’s just that people who stopped being FOF members many years ago may not always know what current members are like today. This works both ways. I have cringed at some posts describing wonderful, life-enhancing individuals of 20 years ago who have by now hardened into stuffed inner-circle shirts. This is not Collin’s situation. There has been some very bad shit that has happened in the Fellowship of Friends, and at the same time there are also many fine people who have passed through, or who have somehow remained members…so far. In a momentum of understandable righteous indignation — indignation I frequently share — regarding the psychic harm perpetrated knowingly or unknowingly by Robert Burton and his blindest devotees, it is also possible to hit out at people who simply are innocent.
That said, slander is not a word that applies to the many blatantly unconscionable actions that have come to light through this blog, and I think it is a very healthy thing that people like Bruce, WhaleRider and others express their feelings without restraint. Otherwise remaining members can’t have a sense of what it really felt like to be on the losing end of RB’s mythic society. These honestly expressed feelings speak louder than facts alone.
I also think that no one is innocent anymore when they know the facts but do nothing about it.
Still easy-going enough for you uno?
Joseph G.
#160 Thanks Bruce that gave me a good laugh….I know…I know I’m behind on this Blog….I’ve go to catch up…boy…you go away for a few days and the whole Blog changes
Love you Joseph.
Uno..
“This network came to life through the desire to exchange experiences and connect current and former members of the Fellowship of Friends and related 4th way schools…..so good to see you here…”
What us and them?? So far I have found the site sweet, fascinating, refreshing.
Hey Janna ~
Thanks, though I already have several invitations.
Where did I get the impression?
From segments like this ~
“Greater Fellowship site has other purpose than verbal fighting – it’s for connecting and reconnecting of friends. Like a big virtual party! You don’t go to a friendly party with intention to hit some faces, do you?”
______________________
I think you’ve answered your own question.
_______________________
It’s good to know that you visit here from time to time; I will visit you too, though I have yet to do so, based, not on fear, rather, ‘necessity’.
I guess we all have to go with our feelings; for now I need to focus here, no matter how ‘dark’ or ‘fisty cuffs’ it gets;
sometimes in order to get two suns one has to go fishing in black holes; I like the spontaneity here and as I wrote to you before, I sense this is my environment,
something is happening in here that feels ‘transformative’ and stretches my being a little bit more than a prescribed environment (so far as my sense of ‘prescribed’) goes…
It was not meant to seem ‘harsh’ Janna, I know you’re a rather sensitive spirit and so am I, hopefully all of us are… I simply do not see this blog site as a ‘fight’ or ‘flight’ place, nor is it negative:
to me, it’s what pushes one’s buttons and freezes presence, turning it into static identification, this is perhaps in the minus realm:
is it not ironic that it is usually the person who has a negative response to what they see as negativity that gives the photograph? That so often a Fellowship of Friends photograph contains two snap shots, one of the photographed and the fingerprints on the camera.
I am pretty much finished with the idea of perceiving the obvious ‘obviously’, I simply cannot except that the ‘buck stops here’ when someone expresses negativity… then trot over ‘there’ where the buck hasn’t sharpened it’s horns (yet)…
For too long I have witnessed essence in deep freeze because of negative emotion neglect and shyness; and those who do this are certainly not the kind of spiritual beings that I could say have even stepped above that which they slide aside and pigeon hole with an extreme, i.e., hyper King of Hearts self calming and Sunday morning soft-man-of-war techniques (not so soft before and after meetings though)…
its a trap, to get on any fence, let alone find oneself buying white paint to give it a new coat before winter…
They’re beautiful people everywhere Janna, even those who are ready to stand self-revealed and express ‘negativity’ or ‘yearning’ without the ‘fig leaf’ of ‘modesty’, which is simply uneducated essence, whose acting, hoping the ‘act’ will somehow stick as their ‘role’… Does anyone really have a role? How can this be when nothing ends?
__________________________________
Love to you all.
Hey (again) Rhino:
‘no body is ….’ was referring to me.
_______________
:)
Joseph, your smile was (is) one of my most favorite smiles I have yet to meet.
Yes.
H.L. Mencken, wrote this passage about the U.S. early last century. I substituted the words “Robert Burton’s” for the word “governmental”.
This is how I see one aspect of this blog!
“And here, more than anywhere else I know of or have heard of, the daily panorama of human existence, of private and communal folly—the unending procession of Robert Burton’s extortions and chicaneries, of commercial brigandages and throat-slittings, of theological buffooneries, of aesthetic ribaldries, of legal swindles and harlotries, of miscellaneous rogueries, villainies, imbecilities, grotesqueries and extravagances—is so inordinately gross and preposterous, so perfectly brought up to the highest conceivable amperage, so steadily enriched with an almost fabulous daring and originality, that only the man who was born with a petrified diaphragm can fail to laugh himself to sleep every night, and to awake every morning with all the eager, unflagging expectation of a Sunday-school superintendent touring the Paris peep-shows.”
With love to all, ‘in’ and ‘out’,
Ames
The FOF is a church, and if it dissolves, all of its property goes to the State. And, it doesn’t go to the plaintiff in a class action, either, unless there’s a default on the judgement. Problem with that is you are behind a long line of creditors, the first in line being the mortgage holder. And, enforcing a judgment is tricky.
Otherwise, you would have to have the standing to lien property, and then you would have to prevail. It it highly unlikely.
Furthermore, as you who are banging the drums out of your personal need for revenge and your short-sighted, unenlightened and uncharitable self-centeredness, think about the downstream effects of your actions. Think about the many others who would be hurt, possibly more and in more ways than you ever were, just so you can feel vindicated.
Also, it’s not your place to decide that the FOF is not a “religion” on behalf of the rest of humanity. You are not the “deciders”. There’s that old First Amendment thing raising it’s head again. You speak, I speak, who’s right?
The voices of reason here, like Sharon and Ames, are important. Let cooler heads prevail. Think about just how wonderful the French revolution was. Reread Animal Farm.
#227
“It’s interesting that the Greater Fellowship site are always advertising their’s as the more, let’s say, Democratic, and we’re the Bush war mongers… LOL;”
Hey, where do you see all the “advertising”? “always”??
on 06 Jul 2007 at 8:34 pm228 Siddiq
OK OK I will crawl back into my cave and do some drawing.
Our Cave!!!
Unoanimo, you are so active today! Do you have AC? :)
I know who you are. Actually I never read your messages before I found out who you were – they are too long. But today I read them all and found it fascinating. Keep writing!
Good god Uno, you are owlish and prickly recently – the heat getting to you? Maybe I can see your window from here. Can you see the buzzards – out in force today – circling over the valley looking for prey overcome by the heat?
So, what’s with the attack on the GF. It’s a networking tool for crying out loud! Ever heard of LinkedIn or Zoominfo or Oldfriends networks? These are the equivalent networking tools for professionals, business, & schools & colleges: same common technology & concept.
Members are encouraged to join the GF; this networking tool helps integrate past & present FOFers – a merely convenient apolitical initiative to connect old friends. This tool transcends the “them & us” polarization.
Don’t waste your energy on it. So what if some people begin critical or “negative” discussion threads on their own pages or the forum. L&LL, I reckon. Each one of us has our own road out of the FOF.
Hey Uno, I tune in many times a day looking for your posts. Don’t bristle over this one.
LTY
” You all would be very sorry if only Howard is left to take shots at.”
Howard only??? never….
NASB: “For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.” (NASB ©1995)
GWT: Where two or three have come together in my name, I am there among them.”(GOD’S WORD®)
KJV: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
ASV: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
BBE: For where two or three are come together in my name, there am I among them.
DBY: For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them.
ERV: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
WEY: For where there are two or three assembled in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”
WBS: For where two or three are assembled in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
WEB: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them.”
YLT: for where there are two or three gathered together — to my name, there am I in the midst of them.’
GOdl
“He also has a great sense of humor and believes in magic. He sees Magic everywhere he goes. And if you don’t argue with him he will be your best friend (especially if you are a woman).”
Hey, that sounds like…..ehm…..me?
GOdl
Hello ’somebody’ ~
No, I have a little fan that’s always looking left and right.
LOL… You mean my non-anonymous revelation got you to read what the ‘too long anonymous posts’ steered you away from?
LOL…
Then, Ames, on that Post #251, I will have to say,
Ditto
and
Word!
__________________
Steve … hey :)
__________________
l.t.y.a.
“If Robert found a quote/ image in the schools of the past pointing to pre-life or after-life, he would point out that it refers to the stage before starting the sequence.
And key the after-life as prolonged presence..”
no kidding – he is the only One that only Focus on Presence….. I’m after Him!
Whitman:
“I am large, I contain multitudes.”
WoW, me too!!!!
GOdl
The aggregate of some posts has a subtly moralizing tone: not accepting what IS happening for people – the great diversity of reactions to the FOF experience; instead stating what “Should & Shouldn’t Be”!
…”should be over the FOF experience…should be moving on…, shouldn’t be anonymous on the blog and GF…, shouldn’t express negativity about the experience…, shouldn’t spend too much time on the blog…, shouldn’t contribute multiple posts in a day…”
That burdensome “Should” mentality is an outgrowth of the FOF culture – one feels its limitations in time. L&LL.
Hey Harpie ~
Hallelujah… may God’s toenail clippings be my bow and arrows!
:)
Was it Gurdjieff or Ouspensky who said humanity is in prison and needs to escape and that only a few could because too many would draw the attention of the devil……..
Posts #’s 202, 203 and 208 used the word PENPAL. Which is what convicts desire.
This blog is full of PENPALS. Well, I’m not to sure of the PALS.
.
Saw Asaf in YC… Got me thinking…
What does that nice, talented & sincere young man tell his mother and father about his life? What a quantity of deception must be necessary. Asaf is not much older than my own son. What a terrible grief I would feel if Asaf’s play were his, and I lost my son to Robert, in the way that Asaf’s family must have lost him. What indescribably rage I would feel towards Robert, if my son were used as Asaf is used by Robert. Involvement with Robert necessarily separates parents and child: the need for lies and disconnection is absolute. Robert deliberately usurps the parental role, explicitly denigrates familial relations, engages his “boys” in a corrupting lifestyle that burdens them with the need for secrecy and falseness, effectively separating them from all, excepting those in the same predicament. What a f**king sad mad pathetic tragedy is going on here, embodied for me in the sight of that nice young man, Asaf.
I feel outraged now for all the parents that are “bereaved” of their sons…every boy that Robert consumes is somebody’s dear son — subject to debasement, emasculation, degradation, and other subtler psychic damage.
Those young men believe they do not need help – reminiscent of the syndrome in which victims eventually willingly collude with and protect their abusers – but their resistance only increases the pathos.
I wish I had known more, earlier. Would have left much earlier had the “school” maintained the proper transparency. Perhaps – like so many – I am guilty of intentional ignorance.
Robert is a poor damaged specimen of a mother’s son, that we all molded and brought into being by our needs of the moment and our beliefs that needed an object. Without us, Robert could not exist. We created his role – he was merely sucked into the vacuum created by our spiritual yearnings. Then we groomed him to play the part perfectly – in precisely the form we expected and needed. Robert has done nothing but serve as the personification of our spiritual longing. Robert reflects only what we are and what we wanted.
All the effort was made by us: every material result and created thing in the FOF was achieved by one of us, fueled by our own personal inner desire for enlightenment – however we defined it.
Our so called “states”, “moments of presence”, concept of “self-remembering, and all perceived inner changes are subjectively experienced, and are the product of our biology, conditioning, imagination – unique and personal to each – not the consistent results of a method or “Way”.
Firstly, Robert served the purposes we defined but had few attributes other than those we subliminally ascribed and to which he subtly responded. Later in this drama, he began to perform the role more independently and he began to modify his own role according to his own ambitions.
This law-conformable & divine process creates every teacher/guru on the planet, so I believe – although, sometimes has good outcome. This process evolves each guru according to the requirements of the energies personalized in the form of a specific group.
I do not believe that there was ever anything great or mystical here.
Hey bloggers,
19:25
There’s a fire on the east side of Oregon Peak out by Bullards bar. See the smoke? So far, too far away to be a threat
Through the Looking Glass
Please be advised that Greater Fellowship has a forum (“group”) called Rude Argument.
It is not all sweetness and light over there.
Sure, it’s not easy to pull off a real-time shootout volley like it is here. Paths meander and branch, intersect and intertwine, double back on themselves, and leave you talking to the flowers.
Here, you have to run twice as fast just to stay in the same place. Your head can get chopped off in the blink of an eye. Grinning cats appear and vanish with disconcerting regularity.
/\–/\
* *—-~~~~
uu uu
Harpie
No seeum smoke signal over here in G.V. No bomber planes in sky. (Live in flight path.)
Hope false alarm.
Channeling coot, miss him.
I wanted to weigh in on the Greater Fellowship versus Blog controversy. From what I can see they’re mutually complementary. This one allows for anonymity if you want it and allows for more real time back and forth. The GF seems to be more about connecting with friends and establishing a support network for people who have left or are thinking about leaving the FOF. I didn’t quite understand what Unoanimo was referring to. I haven’t seen anything on the GF site forbidding anyone to ‘get negative’ or whatever , it just doesn’t seem to lend itself to that. I’m glad to have access to both – lots of really great, smart, funny people who have shared a common experience just talking together and learning from each other.
Janna:
You are providing a valuable service with your site, promoting a nurturing, self-affirming, and positive force in people’s lives. Hey, any chance you can share some of the gems posted on ‘the son of the blog’ with us warriors ‘over here’? Show us what we are missing ‘over there’, if you are willing…
I long for the day when the lesser Fellowship is closed down, and I can openly join the greater Fellowship. But for right now I feel like a surgeon wearing a protective face mask and gloves hard at work peeling back layers upon layers of diseased, smelly, infected, gangrenous tissue…I need the mask and gloves for my own protection.
*******************
To Whom It May Concern:
I think we can agree that there is an enormous amount of energy generated by having a conscience. Conscience allows us to experience indignant repulsion and righteous anger. But anger can be addictive. An appropriate use of anger is to use it as a motivator for change, for fuel to take action; otherwise it can deplete your energy, hijack your thinking, and turn your creativity into negative imagination. And unresolved anger turned inward causes depression and physical illness.
So if you are willing to channel your energy toward making a big change in how Mr. Burton does business let’s put our heads and keyboards together. We have keyboards, we have time, we have a pool of people online, and we have the law on our side. Thank God for Goggle! Putting pressure on Howard and Siddiq is getting us no place. We must focus our pressure on the body corporeal of the Fellowship of Friends, Inc. if we want our presence to make a difference.
Like Ames, I do not wish to be part of a lawsuit at the moment. Lawyers usually want retainer fees upfront, and the judicial system is slow. I am not looking for any kind of financial settlement.
However…
We can begin a legal public awareness email campaign for free right now.
All we need is for someone to post a sample email informing anyone who does business with the Fellowship of Friends about the true nature of the group and some email addresses.
Who do they do business with?
Where do they sell the wine?
Who insures them?
Where do they do their banking?
Who is the mortgage company?
Who is the elected congress person for that district?
And if you see a poster in your hometown advertising a perspective student meeting, just show up and give out a few flyers with this blog address.
Don’t let your righteous anger eat at you, transform it into action! Taking action will raise your level of being. This blog will be an archive for us to show our children that we didn’t just sit around…we collectively did something to rid the planet of this corrupt organization and depose its sicko leader.
All you have to do is believe that change is possible and be brave enough to stand up to Goliath.
I’ve been thinking, and feeling, about the depth of psychological rehabilitation that may be required for some who wish or plan to leave the Fellowship, or for those who have already left.
There may well be some very personal long-term conflict or damage that cannot be easily repaired by Greater Fellowship parties and offers of emotionality, although these venues are certainly needed, positive and most welcome!
A while back, I investigated a re-hab center in Arizona as a way for me to exit into a “healthy new life,” but their five-day evaluation costs $8,400. I don’t even want to think of the cost of a full “treatment ” schedule!
So, this is just a question to put ‘out there’ for folks to consider:
Could interested parties create a psychologically neutral counseling service with one or two professionals, working pro bono, who could assist those who wish to move on, but who are hindered in some way from doing so — instinctively, emotionally, or otherwise?
I think that pooling resources to make professional counseling available to these persons would be much more constructive than investing in trying to organize expensive lawsuits as a form of retribution.
Revenge and lingering bitterness is not condusive to a healing process. Ideally, we want to help one soul at a time to garner strength and find their new evolutionary path!
This blog will be nothing but an archive of the many pathetic excuses we make for ourselves to NOT work on ourselves, but judge others. Besides gossip, old accounts, and enormous moral indignation, there is nothing here.
There has been almost nothing but total disdain to anyone who has honestly voiced some support for the FOF and Robert. Any positivity is bombarded with unrestrained negative reactions.
This blog is absolutely not doing anything, nothing any child will proudly read. Whalerider, you are in big time imagination still–sad.
Whalerider, I do mean no offense personally, I enjoy your emotional nature and postings, but when you come storming in some 20 years later and try to get others to take action–you remain anonymous–honestly where are you going with this?
goib 259
presence, if reached is a kind of preparation for the fourth state, but Robert never talked about the fourth state.
It seems to me, that he does he not know very much about that state??
Siddiq 269
This blog will be nothing but an archive of the many pathetic excuses we make for ourselves to NOT work on ourselves, but judge others. Besides gossip, old accounts, and enormous moral indignation, there is nothing here.
There has been almost nothing but total disdain to anyone who has honestly voiced some support for the FOF and Robert. Any positivity is bombarded with unrestrained negative reactions.
This blog is absolutely not doing anything, nothing any child will proudly read. Whalerider, you are in big time imagination still–sad.
**********************
(Siggiq please do not read this, I want you to remain in the FoF as long as possible. This is for others.)
Just because you have a positive attitude toward what you assume is representative of a state of non-identification does not mean that you are any less identified, any less asleep, than those that are negative toward it. This is the catch-22. All these protesters out here were every bit as positively identified with Robert Burton, with the FoF and its interpretation of the Fourth Way as you are now, even more so. They all eventually flipped and so will you. The key is to put your confidence and your objectivity into yourself rather than into your school, rather than into your teacher or anything else. Rather than struggling to belong to this group of believers, struggle to belong entirely to yourself. If you disappoint yourself under such conditions then you’ve no one to blame but yourself and as human nature goes you will forgive yourself even before you discover any fault with yourself. You believe that you are now doing something that we never did enough of, remembering yourself, practicing presence, but you are wrong. In fact you are not actually remembering yourself when you indulge in obedient, unconditional belief and faith in the organization that you imagine you belong to. Some of your I’s are strongly attracted, strongly positive, but these are not the result of self-remembering, these are the result of a magnetic center that will one day wear out. If you were truly unidentified, meaning that if you were actually awake, it wouldn’t matter to you if you were in the school, or out of the school, or never heard of the school. There is no more consciousness accumulated within your school, there is no more non-identification available within your school, than there is outside your school. This is what we understand and have verified that you have yet to understand. There is hardly anyone on the planet more identified than your teacher. This is what the protesters have realized, that while selling non-identification as an elusive product the salesman is as identified with the proceeds as is humanly possible. You will see this for yourself at some point, much sooner if you ever actually get near the salesman himself. Right now you are defending an imaginary ideal that doesn’t actually exist except as a carefully constructed illusion of words and artificial mannerisms. We’ve all been there long before you and have looked behind the closed doors where the A influence is tallied up, we all know that the idealism is a clever form of identification that creates the illusion of non-identification. You are not “present” you are only using the propaganda to stop the negative halves of your centers from working because that is how Robert Burton controls his sheep, he teaches them to stop thinking and feeling. He misdirects their attention toward the blinding sun while he picks their pockets and unzips their pants. This is what he calls presence and because neither he nor his students know the difference everyone remains more or less in the same blinding trance. We’ve been in that trance and come out of it. If you want increased emotionality wait until you realize that all this devotional excitement is a waste of your time, now that’s emotional.
Siddiq, how can you verify that you are not the one in imagination about what is going on? I mean, really?
And what do you mean by positivity?
Please take the time to answer these honest and serious questions.
Take care,
Laura
my2bits #275: Strange, I was thinking the same thing a couple of posts before yours.
Can you imagine what an on-looker unfamiliar with the words being used must think.
Imagine going to a psychotherapist and trying to explain words. He/she has to be taught to unravel your FOF/DNA.
“Lower centers”, King of Clubs, nine of hearts, robert burton, old friends, new friends, the blog, my mind, my soul, my money.
The psychotheraptist would need a psychotheraptist.
From my experience with the public health system in this country, there is a lot of available for people with no property and low income. It’s the middle income people who seem to be out of luck. When I left the FOF I lost my job (they were interconnected). So I went to the county and was denied help because I had a small piece of land and therefore I didn’t qualify for assistance of any kind, even though there was nothing on the land.
I would suggest something called ‘cognitive behavioral therapy’. This addresses ‘in the moment’ behavior and does not dabble too much into personal history. I think most of us understand enough to realize what’s bothering us but this technique gives tools to change behavior or negative patterns of thinking.
I was able to get this for my son at minimal cost to me. My son suffers from a child of a former member of the Fellowship depression. Growing up in the Fellowship and then leaving the Fellowship had a tremendous effect on the children there. Much confusion and fear.
I found that by calling and inquiring, the health department and certain clinics will offer services at a discounted rate for low income people. No need to spend thousands when this is available for many.
Whalerider,
We know each other and I think highly of you. Drop me a line at veronicapoe@gmail.com.
my2bits/275,
It doesn’t have to cost a lot. What it does require is professionals who have experience with the problems and needs of people who have been in cults. The International Cultic Studies Association (formerly the American Family Foundation) is a network of such professionals.
If you would like to correspond privately on the subject, feel free to write me at veronicapoe@gmail.com.
Sidiq:276 This blog will be nothing but an archive of the many pathetic excuses we make for ourselves to NOT work on ourselves, but judge others. Besides gossip, old accounts, and enormous moral indignation, there is nothing here.
There is some truth to what you say, but I know you are a reasonable person so please consider this:
None of us really know the truth – you don’t and I don’t. It is also possible, even perhaps likely, based on the detructive nature of some of his actions, that Robert doesn’t. None of us know. None of us know.
For years, while in the Fellowship we guarded our thoughts. This produced a rebound, a sincere need, a need to be able to unleash free thought on the subject of Robert Burton. Within this rebound there are many emotions that have found expression. The result is not always beautiful or objective. But it is an expression of a need – a need that was supressed.
External consideration requires understanding that people, like you and me have needs. It means understanding that having needs is not neccessarily weakness. It means understanding that we all do not have the same needs. We are externally considerate when we allow others to fullfill their needs and to live their lives, and in so doing to grow to a more objecitve being. Some will not grow much. Others will thrive on freedom.
You are very externally considerate of Robert’s needs even though they hurt the Fellowship (economically) beyond measure. They appear to me to hurt the Fellowship in many ways.
My guess is that the moral indignation and resulting venom that bothers you is proportional to the hurt. Not that it is objective but that it is a result. It is a result of pain that could not be transformed. 4000 blogs of pain.
You and Howard represent a supporter of the hurt and the walls that guarded free thought. I think most of us on the Blog appreciate your position, your williness to participate, and your sincerity. Please do not take it personally that you are the recipient of some of the venom that is a result of the accumulation of suffering in silence.
We all appreciated the Fellowship. Some, like you and Howard still do. Most would admit to good things in the Fellowship and almost all agree that the Fellowship has attracted an amazing group of people. I read this (between the lines) in almost every blog. You are one of those amazing people.
But the Fellowship is controversial. It is difficult to understand. There is beauty and there is hurt. There are many lies. 4000 posts are a result of the need to understand it. To understand decades of devotion and extreme efforts, love and pain, deception and lies.
Almost everyone has a different relationship to the Fellowship because we all had different experiences both within and without.
But the blog is more than just this rebound. It is also a place for sincere students and former students to consider their most objective position in relation to these subjects. There are many jewels hidden in the mud and the mud is also a jewel. It is a reminder of the value and limitations of personal freedom.
My children, when they were young, were pretty good from my perspective. They often did what I said. They were (sometimes but not always) a representation of me and what I had leaned. Now they are not children. They are experimenting with their own position, their own principles, free from my worldview which had its limitations based on my limitations. Sometimes the result is pretty sometimes it is not, but there is beauty in their learning, beauty in the freedom that I give thim to do as they see fit. There is also risk.
Please do not take the attacks on you personally. You can be more than that. Bring back the love and compassion. Bring back the understanding that you too are not all knowing. Externally consider our need to be able to express our views without the rules and regulations. Understand where this comes from. Help us to understand even if it opens you to attacks. We all want to understand the hurt, the inefficiencies, the lust, the lies, the superiority complex along side the beauty. Help us to understand how the hurt and possible abuses of power are neccessary. Help us to transform our accounts. Understand that many think Robert went way too far and that they may, just may be right. Understand their indignation towards anyone that supports Robert and the status quo. Understand that it is not simple and that since we all have been there, we are not really open to the angles that many of us gave and have come to regret.
Consider the possibility, even if it is a bit threatening, that the blog is here because the Fellowship needs to change drastically to survive and that this change, if it is going to happen, requires open thought with love and compassion that is more objective than the hurt and venom. It may mean relating better to the outside world and acknowleging and respecting the morality of those that are not devotees. That if this change is going to occur, it means that you and others must support the change and help others to see the need.
So please keep blogging. Show us your love, compassion and understanding. Show us your objectivity. Show us how all this hurt can be transformed. Guide us to mature.
It’s TRUE, it’s all true…..well, ALMOST all true:
#190 Somebody:
I know Howard Carter.
He has Vanity, Power and Fear features. Mars-Jovial.
He also has a great sense of humor and believes in magic.
He sees Magic everywhere he goes. And if you don’t argue
with him he will be your best friend (especially if you are a
woman).
ALL TRUE except I am NOT Howard Carter…..and I am sure
this is good news for Howard….whowever he/she is……
and…good news for Un_anim_ because he has not broken
his vow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The “magic” on this page of the drama is that, before I read my name on the blog, I WAS formulating a post:
To ask HOWARD CARTER
SIDDIQ…and
GOLB (if they are truly
current students)
to discontinue posting to the blog.
Since my many efforts to find who they were had failed,
using the Shiek as a private go-between off the blog
itself, was the next step…….until seeing my nam_ today….
My thoughts are these:
DEAR HOWARD,SIDDIQ, & GOlb:
Please consider not participating in the blog….
Paraphrased:
Rodney Collin said that giving knowledge and attention
to issues esoteric, when someone is not asking for them,
violates the principles of esoteric transmission.
Robert has asked not to have discussion amongst
ourselves, about students who have left…This helps
to “leave their space clean.”
Robert has also asked that we avoid “unnecessary”
association with friends who have chosen to leave.
So, if you would consider that no one has been officially
asked to participate on the blog except probably the
legal people, and that considerable energy has gone
from you, into the blog that is confrontational and
provocative, maybe…. could you find it beneficial
to stand down?
Also, from the view that the blog may offer a doorway
to a place of peace and healing for pain and suffering
that you may consider real or imaginary, this is their
process, not yours. Give them their space. Generally,
people consult with those they trust before
making big decisions. If there were any confusions,
misgivings, or questions….they usually ask before
making choices……please consider “Hafiz, step
aside…It is you who are in the way.”
ALSO……Howard, Siddiq, and GOlb,
If you feel that the blog is a neutral space for discourse,
you may be naive…..
in addition to offering a doorway to peace and healing, it also
seems to offer another doorway to a “War Room” where
sincere and heartfelt plans for action are being made.
This truly being my first and last post……
Love to all who wish……
Ni_k
Reference to my nam_ goes to
(14) posts # 196, # 197
Love to those who wish…..
286
Thanks Ni_k. A thoughtful. valuable post.
Siddiq, sounds like you are (as we used to say) “losing your work”, or a bit on the panicky side. If it is a real school you should have nothing to fear, and nothing to defend. They don’t burn at the stake anymore.
I think it’s clear Siddiq, HC, Golb are here to feed us bullshit on many levels. It’s not the first time this has been pointed out.
Siddiq is obviously having a different part of his “being” evoked by the threat of an outside force disrupting the superstructure he or she has come to depend on for his or her “value” in the FOF.
It’s also been pointed out countless times that these FOF defenders, as one purpose, are here to monitor any possible threat to their community.
After these thousands of posts, Ni_k comes with, what I feel, is an extraordinary post, identifies himself, does what he came to do, and moves on. As opposed to the dishonest, cowardly anonymous manipulations of the Siddiq’s, HC’s, LOL’s, GOlb’s etc.
It’s clear they learned well from the master scammer, but I don’t really think they’re worth shit to a tree.
thank you Ni_k.
I was reading a bit through the blog and is interesting to read the HC postings, I was the same. A follower without any questions, for everything which might have been not right action from the FOF, the teacher and the students there was a good buffer not to see it.
I am not bitter about my time in the FOF, because man I did have some good times there, and I think it was the right thing for me at that time (by the way I believe in destiny)
but it is funny for me today, see how I was, I think I was a fundamentalist, and when I see my real me, is a thinking person, with is not willing to follow a leader, but in that time I was not me, just somebody.
In the name of God or whatever, it was okay to hurt each other, and not just RB took money out of our pockets, other students too, over priced housing etc.
And what should one say if the arguments are so good, dont be identified, is just your instinctive center bla, bla, bla
how can a marriage work, if one uses too much of this terms and one can not say what one feels or think, how can a friendship work if one can not say what one feels or think
and it has nothing to do with not being present, it is a buffer to not get confronted with once actions, with once feelings etc.
And is it not a form of expression of negativity when one associates C-Influence just with suffering and friction, and never with the beauty of the sunshine, with finding once soul mate – sure than one is identified again.
Man do I love it – being identified, coming back to the moment and do not have a bad conscience or self deprecation. Feels good being me, loving me and just be happy
I verified there is more life after the FOF and if I go to the moon – do I care, actually I would prefer Venus is warmer
greetings to all of you Helene
Bruce – shit is worth quite a lot to a tree.
Hey Nick: I was just formulating an angle in the shower and then I read yours, which seems to connect in a certain way.
What I have found after 14 years out, being in the Fellowship disallows complete feelings on both sides of the human emotional experience; that is, you don’t feel strongly either way. And you would retort that you’re Queen of Hearts has been replaced by your King of Hearts. What a big lie that is!
Since I left the Fellowship I feel strongly about all kinds of things, good and bad. And feeling very good or feeling very bad is something that is discouraged in the Fellowship. The fallout from this is that it allows a person to accept all sorts of bad behavior on the part of Robert, a lack of empathy for others, and all kinds of emotional bad habits start to set in. And by example students are learning how to become a sociopaths.
Please spare us the work angles. I believe it is useless to try to talk a person out of leaving the Fellowship. The only way to ‘verify’ that your life becomes whole again is to leave. Otherwise, you are stuck in a quagmire with many others who are living incomplete lives.
Hey Everybody-
In cased you missed them, there are two excellent posts that showed up late due to being moderated. They are #268 from Parent and #269 from Morgan Le Fay. Check them out.
Ni*k Spa*ldi*g-, Man do I miss you! You were one of my best friends. I don’t want to argue with you, but have you verified those words of Rodney Collin you quoted? And have you noticed how many bloggers really don’t want to start a class action suit. They want people to have a life outside of the Fof so they can see that you can “work on yourself” and “self-remember” without having to pay so much money and without having to live 25 miles from the nearest traffic light.
If you come to Los Angeles please call. You can consider it necessary.
Did everyone notice the tiny “smiley face” at the bottom of the screen?
289
Yes, but not according to the Jefferson Airplane.
Jefferson Airplane must not have ever grown a tree….
Oh, wow, a line drawn in the sand by Ni-k Spa-lding. This ought to bring out some interesting comments from Howard Carter, Siddiq and GOLb.
Personally, I found Ni_k’s post fairly neutral and magnanimous. I don’t agree with everything he said, but I respect where he’s coming from. I didn’t find it all that judgmental. I didn’t feel any defensiveness being evoked in me by reading it.
N_ck: “Robert has asked not to have discussion amongst
ourselves, about students who have left…This helps
to ‘leave their space clean.’ “
Well, what this actually does is prevent the obvious outgrowth of such discussions — the questions about why people have left, and comments about how many former members are living happy, productive, rewarding, and spiritually enriched lives. Additionally, the discussion inevitably touches upon Robert’s actions, the people who have been hurt by his actions, the cost of remaining in the school, and the idea that maybe — just maybe — they are doing the right thing by leaving the school.
Two of the most uncomfortable topics in the Fellowship are lying and former students.
Oops, ‘you’re’ should be ‘your’ on my last post. didn’t check my work.
Hello Siddiq, Howard and GOlb,
I don’t know whether we will hear from you again following N_ik’s request. I apprecaite the way N_ik phrased his request (very open) but I personally hope that we do continue to hear from you.
I believe the blog involves us all (in or out). Yes it is healing for those of us that have left, but in a strange way it may be healing in a different way for those that are in also. I personally believe that I have seen some positive changes in the Fellowship as a result of the blog. It is more open. Many of my friends that are still in feel that they have gained in perspective and that the Fellowship has changed a little.
I think many of us underestimate the courage and independence required to continue to post here as a current student. You offer what is dear to you up for dissection and spitting on while going against the pressures from within the Fellowship to remain silent. You do provide balance.
Whther you continue or not, my hat is off to you for displaying such courage.
He was basically quoting the RB line. For me, that’s fine. I don’t think any person on a true “path” is going to allow (except temporarily) someone, regardless who, tell them what their right path on the continuum of life is. Eventually, those who continue to think and ask questions of themselves are going to see what they’re supposed to see.
Listen, I imagine that a LARGE number of members are reading this blog. L A R G E. The hierarchy is getting VERY UNCOMFORTABLE. Fuck em. Really, don’t believe ANY of the shit were getting from “you know who”. We still all have a occasional fling with the same non-discriminatory mindset we had when we were “in” and we were “good students”. There is no one from the group of assholes who is here for any other reason than to control and disrupt.
Fuck em and the horses they rode in on.
Suzy
You can’t get indignant about people who won’t think for themselves. Those that do will continue to make the right decision. Including ignoring RB’s ridiculous “rules and suggestions” when they see something new out there and in themselves. I couldn’t give a fuck about the structure of the “school”.
The real shock when one leaves, after a short mourning period, is regaining a whole part of yourself that has been suppressed, abused, controlled and demeaned. One forgot the things they love, and the person they are. It really shakes one up. It’s like: “Holy fuck, I love doing this. I used to love doing this. This is me, and a part of me. Where the fuck has it been? Holy shit, Bruce…hello”.
What were providing here has never been seen on this scale in the school. If anyone tries to convince us that the members have much better things to do, either they are bad liars, or very fuckin stupid, but probably both.
From the Fellowship of Friends website, “Frequently Asked Questions” (http://www.beingpresent.org/index.php?toc=FAQ):
The Fellowship seems to have softened its judgment regarding other paths to awakening. Many on this blog might dispute the “practical dimension” of other methods has been lost.
If indeed “a real spiritual school of awakening must be rare”, who knows how rare they must be? Surely, in the vast sea of humanity, those who pursue “enlightenment” or “awakening” through any means are already a rare phenomena.
Quite a while back, I asked “Howard” this “simple” question – how do you measure your results? S/He said they would get back to me on it.
“Measure the results.” The “simplest way”? What a great question for those who have spent 5, 10, 20 or 30 years in the Fellowship. Are you remembering yourself more now than you did years ago? (How do you measure this? How do you gauge “progress”?)
And if you cannot honestly answer “yes”, then how do you prove to yourself that having the perpetual “third force” of a school is actually necessary? Could you have not achieved similar results on your own (once you have verified your “sleep”, that is)?
Are you “achieving what (you) had aspired to?” (If you had aspired to awakening in this lifetime, then your hopes must have been dashed once the “truth” was revealed by Robert.)
I would like to hear how current members address such questions. (I have no intention of attacking your responses, as to this day I live with these questions.)
I wish this blog had existed when I was a member. Not only to be exposed to the revolting facts of the “teacher” but also to hear the current members interact with others. First it was threats, then ridicule, always dismissal. It has been very strange to see it written down and documented.
(btw, i finished a painting which has a wall collaged with snippets from this blog – hidden right in plain view because only blog readers would get it)
Good luck to us all !
oh, oops, not all the current members have been that way…just the more persistent ones.
Well then, I’ll give that a try Nick.
I have not posted at anyone’s request, just thought that the blog could use some balance, so that members, former members and future members do not think that the lack of response from current members is because they all agree with the statements made here.
Not pretending to speak for any number of current students at all, just my own opinions were given, I also believe very firmly that the more vocal former members here are not speaking for the majority of former students either. This is what has made this blog what it is–quite colorful.
With that said, I will get back into OUR cave. But as the Terminator said: “I’ll be back”
Siddiq
To Ni_k Spa_ldi_g
Many here have commented on and questioned the current members about their participation here relative to your exact thoughts.
We all know that contact with ex-members is cultishly considered to be poisonous and have wondered why they bother. (Howard claimed he’d been given an exploratory mission by the Fellowship. Siddiq claimed he was attempting to provide balance for any prospective member reading the board.)
Most of them have displayed rude, arrogant behavior and have, consistently, offered extremely insane representations. The elitist attitudes are abhorrent. The twisted thought processes are illustrative of cult behavior. They’ve displayed extreme negativity and, in that, confirmed the cult’s corruption.
Further, you have now confirmed that the elitist attitudes do exist and that members who have posted here are breaking cult rules and, of course, making y’all look pretty bad.
If there are prospective followers browsing this board, your post will be highly enlightening because it clearly illustrates the fact that the fellowship is a cult which requires members to censor themselves in order to obey a very strange pedophile.
Robert’s motive in creating rules that isolate members from contact with the world are efforts to further manipulate them in order to protect his financial interests by ensuring that no one is thinking or participating outside of his incredibly tiny box.
Your motive is to ensure that these strange members don’t continue to make the fellowship look as bad as it is, which they’ve been accomplishing with superb tenacity and great facility.
To Siddiq
You are very obedient. Perhaps they will also order you to consistently read the solicitations for money rather than block them. Anticipate it because they’ve found you here!
Hello Nicholas ~
You wrote ~
“If there were any confusions,
misgivings, or questions….they usually ask before
making choices……please consider “Hafiz, step
aside…It is you who are in the way.”
___________________
It’s very emotional for me to have started reading your first few paragraphs, then a profound shock at the end; I want to share this ’shock’ with you, because I think it will be useful, similar to my ‘Rumi post’ some days ago.
The Hafiz quote you quoted ~
That is the very exact quote Robert Burton used on a young man after he said ‘no’ to Robert’s wish to sodomize him.
He said, “Feelings? No, those are not yours; Hafiz said, ”
step aside (let me sodomize you)..It’s you Hafiz who are in the way.”
We are all saints and beggars in our disclosure of words.
_________________________
l.t.y.a.
286 Nick.S.
Oh Nick You have become the right arm of the fof law.
How could you?
You are bigger than that!
I have sat in your silver bullet with you and I respected you as a man.
On the strength of that alone I will attempt to do the impossible with you and ask you to do something very simple, next time you see “The Teacher” remember yourself intensely and just look at him very carefully.
I and many others would still be there if not for him.
Cant you see that its about one of his main weaknesses, keeping current students away from former ones, is dominance and his fear that his greed will be compromised in future.
Keep the sheep in the pen until slaughter, keep them away from people like me, dont let them bite of the poison apple of knowledge.
I know you once respected me, but then before you knew it I was gone through my own choice, to live a life that I could also respect myself in living because If I had stayed it would have been at the cost of my self respect and thats too high a price for any man to pay.
Dont pay it Nick!
You are unlucky in that you have never been the “object” of your “teachers” lust because If you had you would know what I know, undeniably.
There are friends in the neighbourhood who would embrace you If you left, do you believe that they have cut themselves of from all possibilities?
I know that you have burned your bridges in your past life and invested all where you are but is it worth selling your soul for?
Why have I bothered to post this?
Simply because despite your foibles I liked you you old fool. C y.
As I am going to be moderated, I thought I would invite Walt Whitman to join me in the process.
Probably like everyone who is contributing to, or reading this blog – student or ex-student, this opening verse to “Song of the Open Road”, has at one time been an inspiration for our work – our life. Why? Because it is pregnant with latent possibility. Just reciting it can send a tingle of anticipation down your spine.
Yet when I think how far we have travelled in the intervening years, what a minefield that open road has proven to be.
Like this blog which winds its way through each day like an open road – vulnerable in its pristine state until it is impressed upon by a footprint or many.
And that is the beauty of this path – this blog. It is neutral – a tabula rasa. It is free for anyone to stamp their impression, in which ever way one chooses. There are those who will tell you not to – you yourself may hesitate out of fear of what might emerge from within you, but once you decide to step forth and take to the open road, you are the master of your destiny, wherever the brown path leads.
Many are travelling it now – some cover themselves for protection, others have thrown back their hoods to feel the warmth of the sun…
If you feel a need, you will. Enjoy it while it lasts!
******
Finally, I vowed if I were to re-contribute to this blog I would do so under my real name. So I throw back my hood.
My greeting to friends past and present.
Steven A
My apologies to Nick. As I remember, you had more of a sense of humor than HC anyway, whomever HC is.
Siddiq #277:
If you truly understood and believed in the concept of multiple lifetimes and that each person is responsible for all their actions during this lifetime, “20 years later” means nothing. Your post lacks scale.
Where am I going with this? Where do you think? Robert enslaves his followers! That’s what it is like for me viewing the FOF 22 years later…sans the sentimentality that keeps you and others enslaved. I am not talking about shooting a horse with a broken leg here…it’s much bigger than that. It’s the whole kingdom.
No offense…you come across as one of the head slaves, who has had to crawl through shit to work your way to the top of the heap…and with conviction and sincerity you are advocating for his institution of spiritual slavery because you have the most to lose…Why should I listen to you, then? You are not the voice of balance. Where are the pro-FOF voices that are new in the school?
I am working from ethical principles and as my conscience dictates. You appear to be working from self-interest and as Robert dictates.
Old Fish in the Sea #285
“Guide us to mature.” ???
With all due respect, my friend, we would be better served discovering and nurturing our own inner guides than to seek or expect any mature guidance from a Fellowship of Fundamentalists.
1,082 hits in 24 hours (-37 for entries)
Hummm…
________________
Hello Cathie ~
Janna wrote ~
“Hi Unoanimo #229 – I just wondered where you got this impression about GFOF site: “To me, the Greater Fellowship website needs to rethink their ‘Us and Them’ approach”.
Cathie, you wrote ~
“Please be advised that Greater Fellowship has a forum (”group”) called Rude Argument.
_____________________
Hummmmm (again)
_________________
l.t.y.a.
309
It’ll be a real milestone when we get more hits per day than the FOF sends out solicitation emails per day.
I think.
unoanimo, hello, you addressed me in post ~309 and uttered the following:
“Hummmmm.”
Is that the best you can do?
Your communication style is odd. Sometimes you seem to just enjoy the sound of your own words and clever phrases, and don’t care if anyone understands what you’re trying to express or not.
Then occasionally you just hum mysteriously.
Spit it out man, what is your point?
You don’t by any chance have a “dominance feature” do you?
Hello Ni_k Spa_ldi_g,
Thanks for your surprise entrance. I’m glad you read the blog. Is this an official task, or your own idea? Whatever, I hope you are open to feedback.
I have a few thoughts that you, Siddiq, Howard, GOlb, and others may find useful. I have put a “ quote “ sign to show where your statements begin, and a “ ∞ “ sign to show where my thoughts begin. And please grant me that these are thoughtful responses, not an automatic list of “opposite I’s”.
—————————————————————
∞ Why are you making these many efforts, Nick? What business is it of yours? Or, is it your official business? Either way, what are you afraid of? C–Influence needs some little helpers?
∞ But we are asking for them! If that has never been made clear enough in 5600 posts, I’ll put it formally now. I seek esoteric transmissions and understanding from all sources, including from past and PRESENT members of the Fellowship of Friends. Just because Burton says we are damned, lost, unworthy, or whatever—does not make it so (that’s just another unverifiable angle designed to inculcate fear in the followers). So, please consider continuing your participation. This includes you, Nick, we want your input!
∞ Let him ask away. But obeying him merely strengthens your buffers; it turns off the light and restores darkness. A sort of institutional lying and willful self-deception blatantly promoted by the leadership. Ask yourself, does this help me find out the truth, or hinder it?
∞ Why not take a tiny step, and decide for yourself what is “unnecessary”. Burton’s generalized observations, requests and tasks help to turn the function of a true school (whose purpose is to encourage individuation and graduation of the students—based on personal transmission/instruction/initiation) on it’s head.
∞ By all means, consider this advice. But, also consider that firstly, how do you know that “no one has been officially asked…” is true, and secondly, it may be beneficial for you to keep on. For that matter, how do you know the post is actually from Nick Sp___ding? What authority does he have, if it is indeed him, and where does he get it from? Does he have any of his own, from his being, intrinsically? And why would it supercede what your conscience tells you?
∞ True, and thank you for that emotional perception, but it is not the whole truth; there is space for both their process and yours to occur, and at the same time.
∞ Sounds nice. But when I asked hard questions of “older students”, I was lied to by commission or omission, judged, reported to Burton, or given yet another ‘official angle’ that discouraged valid exploration and encouraged alignment with the institution—that is, sleep. This is useless or actively harmful for a genuine truth–seeker. Like KA, I wish I’d had something like this blog to consult.
The Hafiz quote is out of context. The FoF appears to specialize in quotes taken out of their original context, and put in a new context to suit official purposes; and, almost all are taken from dead authors who are not around to protest their misuse. In #14-306, Unoanimo gives a truly hideous example of this. The best interpretation I can put on this subject is that deliberate misuse is tantamount to a lie, and in Unianimo’s example, is high crime.
∞ If you meant, just (and only) neutral, the posters might be naïve. But, this blog can and has served as active, passive, and neutral force in a variety of triads. Find out and explore each for yourselves, and invite your friends. Have you learned anything, for yourself? If yes, then stay open that you may learn more! If, after all this effort on your parts, you can genuinely say you have learned nothing at all, then Nick may have a point.
This “War Room” stuff. Nick, whatever Abe may be promulgating about “conspiracies” and “cabals” (I’ll have to post some of the letters he sent around the time I left, one of these days), what you see on this blog is it. Just talk at this time.
I’d bet, and I’d appreciate your take on this, is that Burton and Abe, the Board and the “power possessors” are burning a lot more midnight oil than ‘we’ are on preparations for any ‘war’. But hey, ask around, if you don’t already know, and keep us informed! (Now I grant you, this blog is the ground for a “Battle of Belief Systems”—and the weapons are ideas, against which there is no defense.)
∞ But, not so! Just a few minutes later, you posted a last word that you thought too important to forego. Think of it as another shock. Rather, open yourself to this idea—you have much to contribute; instead of lurking, join in whenever you feel you can serve others or your self, now and in the future. We’d appreciate having you here.
∞ And much love to you, dear Nick!
P.S. The layout is an experiment. I thought I’d try some html code in here. If it turns out an unreadable disaster, forgive me, and I’ll post it again in ‘clear’. Ames
Hey Cathie:
Nope, I don’t have a ‘dominance feature’; although I can burn a copy of Harrison Ford’s ‘Blade Runner’ if you want it…
:)
I love you too.
_______________
l.t.y.a.
WhaleRider #308 on Old Fish in the Sea #285
“Guide us to mature.” ???
Yes, you are right. We have been guided enough. I must have had a momentary relapse. I don’t won’t them to guide me – but I don’t mind them trying.
But as thankful as I am that I left, I don’t like the us versus them attitude. I don’t like it when it comes from within the Fellowship and I also don’t like it when it comes from those of us that have left. We all were students. We all worked together. We all allowed ourselves to be deceived together. We all supported it for a while. Odds are I was recently friends with one or both of them. I am happy to encourage them to share their experience and to try to be as open and honest as they can be.
Siddiq, Howard and GOlb are not fundamentalist. Remember Be Careful or LOL. They had no hearts. Howard and Siddiq have hearts.
Oddly, I am even thankful to “Be Careful”. Were it not for those repulsive posts I might not have been motivated to post to the blog and I might not have left. Now I see that the Fellowship is always telling students to be careful and I am glad to be a bit more free from that. Howard and Siddiq have the courage to post and I appreciate that.
Hello Ames;
For me, although it’s a stretch, I would say that it’s not Nick; that’s it’s either HC or Siddiq’s conscience (or both) that has ‘nearly swallowed their tongues’ and seen the light, that posted that ‘blog beware’ sign, to give themselves a back door.
If it is ‘Nick’, then he has simply (so to speak) given us yet another example of cult-shackle rattling; and, personally, whenever I hear a ‘rattle’, I have three things in hand, a shovel for rattlesnakes, ‘baby food’, and ‘my hand in a glove’ in case it’s both.
There’s allot of Freud (not Buddha) going on in the Fellowship of Friends; its no coincidence that Robert Burton’s first ‘my-law abiding- trust me’ lie was built on the subject and constitutional aspect of chastity, which, being a lie, simply shows his deepest area of pain body identification and automatic-pain-propagation (making his ’school’ one of relative awakening, where transforming what the teacher puts forth is religious-duty, identification with ‘role’ as ‘I see you Robert, do you see me seeing you?’
This is beyond the inner-man, who the forefathers of ‘The Way’ (and mothers) point to; not to forget that it was a being in a female body that awakened Meher Baba; the Fellowship of Friends has little room for the ‘quiet sister’;
although, I have noticed that Robert Burton’s name is not being printed on event brochures as usual;
is this blog making/giving suggestive, better camouflage techniques for Burton and friends by stating the ‘not so obvious’? Reverse psychology? Seeming to pay more attention to the slaves than their first-force-master?
No, Robert, it will not work, whoever is reading this I am writing (or anyone on this blog, whose attempting to be sincere and balanced, past profundities and ‘higher instinctive center’ looks from you) will ‘pass it on’ (the grape vine is getting shorter and shorter by the day), take a look at the vineyard BTW. Your humilty-invisibility has been seen too many times and means nothing; particularly after witnessing ‘Nick’s’ soul-tumor-result, compliments of Robert Burton (and Nick).
Written above, “shows his deepest pain body identification and propagation;” marks, for me, that Robert Burton is ’still’ (and yes, I am using numbers for the sake of ‘certain scales reading this’) a man #4.
A man #5 glows a “certain something”, (and I don’t mean to sound ‘New Age’ here), this ‘glow’ is a kind of intentional suffering that when looked at by the yearning of another seeker (a seeker whose ‘doing the same’) can be felt;
I have looked at Robert Burton, face to face, many, many times: I see an opportunist, this is all… he’s surfing a wave that some other third force created, a third force that he does not ‘pay for’; if it seems he does, it is by the projected energy of his so called ’students’ individual payments being artificially attributed to his proximity, again, an opportunist.
__________________
Ames, you quoted from ‘Nick’ ~
“Also, from the view that the blog may offer a doorway to a place of peace and healing for pain and suffering that you may consider real or imaginary, this is their process, not yours. Give them their space.”
Another example of the defense of a School of Relative Awakening; yet, do you ‘Nick’, see that by posting here, that HC, Siddic and Golb are looking for a doorway to a place of peace and healing for pain and suffering that Robert Burton cannot keep to his own first line, that he has artificially made into ’second line’ and ‘third line’ for thousands; sounds like dominance, vanity, and greed to me.
Second to the aim of this blog; I want its radiations to fall upon its ‘first force’ and sink in; truly, Robert Burton, I pray for your soul, I pray for your letting go of all this that has defined you as ‘thou’ and ‘tho’…
_____________________________
Love to you all.
Many fine posts lately, thanks to all for the good reading.
279 Graduates
In a word, brilliantly articulated (all right, 2 words). Thanks.
286 Ni_k Spa_ldi_g
Hey Ni_k, how are you? Long time no yak. Ni_k, I have very fond memories of our times together. (Even though you made me sleep on the floor in Old Westbury! haha) I always thought you had more talent as a standup comedian than for the 4way, but what do I know? I know we sometimes rubbed “sore spots” together, but I always admired your way of shaking it off with a smile. Hope you are well and always welcome contact.
It would be great if more FoF people would post here, not fewer, in my opinion. The blog is useful to many.
On FoF Website:
Should we call it the Fellowship of Divine Presence now? Nice history eradication project on the FoDP website, a little like the revisionist history texts of the Soviet era, nyet? Don’t like your history? Just wipe it out—bingo, a new church is born.
312 Ames
I dunno Ames, can you make the quote marks a little smaller? Like 1/2 the size???
JoelF
286 Ni_k Spa_ldi_g
Oh, Ni_k, I was curious about the “abandoning Shakespeare” rumor. Is it true? Curious about the reason for it, whether people are still “permitted” to read S. on their own, just really puzzled me and I thought you might know. Thanks.
Jo_l Fri_dl_nd_er
Old Fish in the Sea:
Thanks for your post. Your voice is important here. Sure, I’m all for more open-minded discourse with anyone ‘out’ or still financially supporting the FOF, the trouble is, it’s not a trickle up kind of organization…it’s the other way. So in this case, even if we magically converted siddiq or ‘HC” to see the light, so to speak, it wouldn’t really matter to their spiritual master. I have issue that there are no viable checks and balances in this corrupt organization. Legally corporations, especially non-profit ones, are chartered to have checks and balances. The FOF is run as a dictatorship, that’s different. Dictatorship is not a stable form. They usually don’t end well and have a hard time carrying on unless the dictator has a son…
Nick, Ames and unoanimo:
Thanks for that. Who knows what would Hafiz say?
The intentional misuse of b-influence quotes to further one’s perversions…high crime as you say, Ames….sure feels like a ‘spiritual crime’ to me…yup, offending the spirit(s) of the quote…using it to abuse and manipulate someone in such a vulnerable state, your young ‘student’ follower (for goodness sake!) is a total desecration of the intent behind the poem!
By supporting the organization of the Fellowship of Friends, members are complicit in this play of crime. You pay, you play. There’s no middle ground, I am sorry to say.
You guys…its kinda like paying for an insane insurance policy that’s on acid…and the twisted nightmare is that you end up in servitude to freakin’ insurance agent…even having to pay to see or talk with him after you’ve signed your whole damn life off to him…and the trip just gets weirder and weirder…and you keep working harder and harder and paying more and more in hopes of building up some kind of credit in the ‘afterlife’ each time the light bulb of presence goes off in your head??? Which you realize way into it that it is a great deal for Robert, because he doesn’t have to pay out your policy until after you are dead…when you presumably…hook up with him or something?…in some other ‘limbo’ plane to get your credits?…or maybe he’s going to be there to vouch for you or something…but that’s starting to seem a little suspect since c-influence doesn’t appear to have a very high regard for him…cuz they kept showing him all those wrong ‘signs’ about everything…and you are really not sure one way or the other what’s going to happen in the end until it happens…
Well, sounds fishy to me…still does after 22 years.
…and you really don’t have anything in writing, either…?
Hi Unoanimo,
If inventing ‘Nick’ was HC’s or Siddiq’s escape route, then it would be fear, not conscience, that led them to that action…. a completely different triad.
That’s the way I see it, at least!
Time for bed…
Love to you,
Ames
To N.S. – 14-185
It’s hard to ignore your post and not see it as a confirmation, coming as it did on 7-7-07 – “octave complete?”
I actually came to this point for most of the same reasons you stated and stopped posting for a month or so earlier. I looked at coming back in the sense that it had a set time involved and it now appears to have played out. I think GOlb also sensed something a few days ago.
P.S. I don’t mind playing second fiddle to you in the humour department; who wouldn’t. But for the record I did bite my lip and let several good ones go by due to the wit exercise. Such is life.
There’s still one or two to address shortly.
HC
Ni_k Spa_ldi_g 286 (number subject to change)
Since my many efforts to find who they were had failed,
using the Shiek as a private go-between off the blog
itself, was the next step…….until seeing my nam_ today….
My thoughts are these:
DEAR HOWARD,SIDDIQ, & GOlb:
******************************
Translation of jack-of-hearts, soft-peddled cult-speak:
“Robert has had enough of this, I have been sent to inform you that we are actively trying to find out who you are. Stop posting now or you will be out of the school when we do figure it out.”
Howard Carter 321 (number may change)
To N.S. – 14-185
It’s hard to ignore your post and not see it as a confirmation, coming as it did on 7-7-07 – “octave complete?”
I actually came to this point for most of the same reasons you stated and stopped posting for a month or so earlier. I looked at coming back in the sense that it had a set time involved and it now appears to have played out. I think GOlb also sensed something a few days ago.
P.S. I don’t mind playing second fiddle to you in the humour department; who wouldn’t. But for the record I did bite my lip and let several good ones go by due to the wit exercise. Such is life.
There’s still one or two to address shortly.
HC
**************************
Your constitutionally guaranteed First Amendment right to speak your mind publicly has been revoked by the Fellowship of Friends because you are too incompetent to speak about and defend the ideals of your school. You have been told to shut up because, though you have enough drive-of-vanity, you do not possess the intellectual capacity not to make a fool out of yourself and thus reflect poorly on the general intelligence of your cult. Accept the photograph and relinquish this futile obsession to distinguish yourself as a man of higher reason and relativity.
Clue: “humour” spelled in the Canadian, British, Australian or even Indian variant. Not an American.
N_ckS, If you feel that we feel that the blog is a neutral space for discourse,
YOU may be naive…..
Anyway your I’s are appreciated as a third force and I’ll start the experiment already proposed on July 4th.
BTW siddip may be more on the side of acting intentionally but many elements tell me exactly who HC actually is: …a good friend!
GOlb
The Greater Fellowship
There should be established a formal organization with religious/church legal status, with officers/ministers, with the aim to unify the informal friendships developed through similar experiences into a coherent aim. Something with a vaguely spiritual purpose, but mainly es