…one has to have an invitation to come on the site. AG violated that rule. It creeps me out. He knew he was violating the network rules. He did not have an invitation. He did not email anyone on the site to see if it was OK. Many here who actually WERE invited don’t want him
Really? I’m surprised (and a little incredulous) at that last statement, KA.
Would you ban Girard? Asaf? Others who work in AG’s office? What’s the criteria? Why ban anyone who hasn’t misbehaved yet, (besides using someone else’s invitation, which seems more like a misdemeanor than a felony). Why not let people use the site freely? I can see banning someone for bad behavior (what they do) but not for “pain from the past” (who they are).
If someone sent me AGs email address, I’d send him an invitation to the GF today.
As I said before, we’re all adults now (I hope) and although I’ve been AGs target in the past, I’m not sure I understand what’s coming across to me as anger and bitterness. (And maybe I’m reading that wrong.)
The more I think about this the stranger it seems.
It’s like we’ve forgotten that in the FoF, the victims are often identical to the victimizers—I know I’ve played both roles.
Is there something that makes AG (or others for that matter) intrinsically or especially evil? That’s what banning is about, isn’t it? Is he unredeemable? Who can make that judgment? Not me, I’m trying to get out of the judging business.
It also goes to show that ideals such as inclusiveness and non-exclusivity sound good and promise much, but can be damn hard when “the rubber meets the road” and we have to act on those intentions.
It seems to me that the GF is either for all present and former members of the FoF, or it isn’t, and it’s another club where the people who are “in” will decide who will be the people who are “out.” I don’t find that very appealing any more.
Also, AG may need a dose of humanity more than most. And when the day comes that AG wakes up to what’s been going on in his life (as Ames so eloquently explained in his letter from years ago) and can apologize, I for one will try mightily to forgive him. Why not? I am AG, and you, and me. One lesson I got from my days in the FoF was to try to exclude nothing, but to try to open to everything.
I think I’m up to 4 cents on this topic by now, thanks for reading.
REPOSTING CONRADE’s #561, WHICH GOT BURIED IN BACKLOG
To Laughing Love (556),
You wrote, “I’m always curious about posts that use the school language to describe thoughts and feelings… I understand that school language is something we all share and which can be understood. I often don’t understand when an ex-student still uses it to describe their current experiences as though he or she was still in the school.”
Very good question. Here’s my answer…
Our work language gives us the precision we need to reach higher centres. Using intentionality as one speaks is a tool that’s useful for one’s work. One must not waste time with the language of life. They are not ready to embrace the task we’ve been given from Higher Forces. As you do the will of your Teacher, you will have everything you need to reach Paradise. Do not inner consider your good fortune.
Yes, I’m kidding.
But not entirely kidding…. because (hopefully) everyone can see from that paragraph just how easy it is to spew out supposed profundities with the so-called work language — even little ole me. But can’t you imagine almost anyone in the Fellowship, including Robert, saying something very similar to the above? Pre-digested, nothing original.
Going back to page 3 of this blog, here’s a post by “George Orwell” :
As far as using the “school language,” I think it is a combination of things. Part of it could be that many people posting on the blog have recently left the fof, and that it’s still a habit to use those same old terms. But “from one angle” (argh, there I go again — an old Fellowshipism), the “work language” does sometimes describe certain concepts more concisely and more accurately.
And you also suggested that. But you bring up a great point. Even while in the FOF, I know some people who tried to find new and different ways to talk about “the ideas,” partly because many terms and phrases began to lose their meaning as people over-used them. If it was worthwhile trying that within the fof, it’s definitely worth a try outside.
Orwell’s essay is worth checking out again. The use of the language is a key point in everything we’re discussing here on the blog. In my opinion, it’s one of the most important topics.
Here’s how they ended their post…
P.S. From my essay, since it’s not clear many of you still read books:
“The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish squirting out ink.”
“But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.”
Let’s not also be so naive that we forget that, as I understand it” AG’s job in the fellowship is partially to protect it’s interests in a legal manner. Not so with other’s in the hierarchy, at least not on that level.
Let us also remember that regardless of AG’s personal inner struggles, he has had and has still access to “stuff” surrounding the FOF that probably nobody else does. Let us also not forget the times in the past where his legal position was used to initiate steps up to and including lawsuits, some of which were thrown out as approaching harassment.
Let us also not forget our own propensities towards gullibility and stupidity, as well as our past ease for being manipulated. I personally don’t see AG as the same as everyone else in the FOF. I don’t think he does either. I think it’s a sigular case that should be dealt with on that level.
If AG finds himself making the decision to leave the fold and/or give up the position and responsibility to be the FOF sleaze bag , I would perfectly open to his being invited. After all Carl M. is a member of the GF and he served basically the same position.
I think many of you, in the interest of magnanimity, are being led by the nose by your inherent malleability and lack of discrimination. That is how I feel and I made my feelings known to William. As far as AG being just an equal member of the FOF, he’s just a bit more “equal” than others.
I was a bit surprised also that so many on the greaterfellowship site did not want his presence too. But there it is in the ‘forum’ discussion. I don’t advocate a permanent ban – just six months, to two years maybe. I would not have automatically banned him (if it were my decision, which it is not – I just have an opinion) and would welcome current members happily. I think it would be wonderful to have the people you mention come on to the network. But this was not done with a clean energy. A temporary ban would just hit the ‘pause’ button. I wish I could say with you how grown up I am and all, but I don’t have a good intuitive sense of how this was approached by AG.
Also, I don’t find this blog all that terribly negative – I don’t get that hit from it. I’m around enough young people (who are not my daughter) so that I’m used to the word ‘fuck’ not having such a negative charge – even listen to rap music from time to time. Why CAN’T AG come here and play online with us? You took some virtual punches, so did Charles R and others too.
I don’t know him but my impression is that he is not a retiring shy person who just can’t take a bit of virtual wrestling.
The mini-quasi-religions do disappear over time. I would not equate the FOF with one of the Major religions. And I do think it will collapse on it’s own energy.
I would also urge some to go to the GF and in the upper right searc corner enter Goldman. There is a recent story from a female student about an encounter with him. It might jar some back into reality (as subjective as that reality is).
567 Bullshit Meter
“to Observer–you are an obvious phony. . . .”
567 Bass Ackwards
“I highly doubt you are a real person . . . .”
571 Whale Rider
575 Another Name
“Dear Observer if you are real and I think you are . . . .”
579 David B.
580 KA
“Since I completely doubt you are just who you say you are. . . .”
Okay, I am not sure why so many of you think I am some kind of fictional character, so I’ll give you a little background. I was employed for many years as a teacher in the Yuba-Sutter area. In the late 80’s/early 90’s there used to be a great restaurant in downtown Marysville (can’t remember the name of it), but when I asked one of my fellow teachers the background of the restaurant because the food was so great–I heard for the first time about the Fellowship of Friends. However, it was described to me more as, “this weird cult in Oregon House outside of Marysville. They get a lot of foreigners, and they have a lot of strange ideas and philosophy, but they run this great restaurant and they have a winery, so they’re also a fairly sophisticated group. Not your normal violent-we-have-weird-religious-ideas-so-we’re-camped-at-the-edge-of-the-world-wanting-to-destroy-you-or-us-kind-of-a-cult. They even have operas, etc.” That was my first exposure years ago. I noticed in the restaurant that all of the help was extremely polite, many with foreign accents, downcast eyes, quiet, helpful demeanors–not your usual blue-collar restaurant help. I never forgot the restaurant or the people.
So, recently, when I met a person who had been in FoF for over fifteen years and was blatantly bright, well-read, funny, and apparently easy-going I was shocked to learn such a great person had lasted in a “cult” for that long. I looked up your group on the Internet because I didn’t want to be rude or invasive by posing a lot of indiscreet, probing questions at such an unsettled time in the person’s life. Evidently, he/she had just left the group in the last few months. That’s when I started to read all of your posts and discovered this whole community of very intelligent people discussing esoteric topics side-by-side with sheer nonesense, and, of course, descriptions of absolutely unbelievable things like the sex and the ridiculous spending on sometimes worthless items–financed by the labor of some of those same great people I had observed in that restaurant years ago. So, as an educator, I thought I would just ask a few questions, so I could begin to understand what you all saw and what drove you on in your search for so many years.
So, why are so many of you convinced that I am some kind of a phony? From your years at FoF, have you all become hypervigilant and suspicious of others? What a shame. I hope you take the idealism and desire to search for greater understanding and “self-remembering”, and keep those good parts and take them out to the broader world. It may sound like flattery to you all, but, believe me, except for all the “psuedo-philosophical-spiritual-nonsense-babble”, the nugget of central ideas sounds like a gold mine to me. (David B. and Another Name I particularly like the honesty and tone of your responses. I appreciate everyone’s answers because most of you are confirming what I have already witnessed on this blog–a community of intellectual, heartfelt group of adults–with a former high degree of tolerance for “weirdness/incongruency”.
Bless you all in your quest, and I am a real person.
Thanks for your post, Observer: “Bless you all in your quest, and I am a real person.”
Most of us are still trying to figure out if we are real.
For what it’s worth, everyone, why not give Abe a try and see what happens. You may have many answers to that question. But I really like what Joel had to say. Let’s just try it. That’s my vote, for what it’s worth.
Laughing Love (556),
“I’m always curious about posts that use the school language to describe thoughts and feelings… I understand that school language is something we all share and which can be understood. I often don’t understand when an ex-student still uses it to describe their current experiences as though he or she was still in the school.”
There are those to whom the “work language” and “the system” were completely external and a part of their school personality. There are others who verified that the ideas were objective information. These are two separate lines of development neither can ever convince the other of their view. From my perspective it is all connected with self remembering. If you have personally verified that it is possible to make a specific effort that can change your consciousness this creates an entirely different relationship than those who imitate the language. My experience of the reality of self remembering cannot convince someone to whom it does not exist of either the reality or value of this state.
There may well be a need to find a new language to redefine ones experiences since being in The Fellowship can create a distorted understanding of the system and language. This doers not mean it is the language that is at fault. It is faulty thinking and attitudes that poisons the transformational power of the ideas. There are some ideas that are contained within the framework of the system that are not available else where. If we consider a “core idea” such as that of the 4 functions and the division into parts by the quality of attention. Then it becomes a simple question of personal experience. These are either true or false. If true than it is important to separate the language and ideas from the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burton’s distortions.You mention the use of the language to describe thoughts and feelings. It is of course the system that clearly seperates thoughts and feeling as being from different centers.
For myself I studied and verified the ideas of the system before being in the Fellowship, in the Fellowship and since. They provide me with a useful tool to organize my thinking, my experiences, and understanding. Some ideas are simply part of my reality. This makes them neither true or false.They just are. There are certain areas that cannot be discussed without the “work language”. You cannot discuss the influence of type, features, alchemy or level of being without using the language because these are parts of the language.
Most of those who argue against the system then provide an alternative language that to me is usually more vague and poorly defined. Most of the comments using perspectives on contemporary psychology are only partially correct. They tend to be as Gurdjieff said “knowledge of the part without connecting it to the whole”.
It is very possible to communicate effectivly without the use of the work language ( see post’s by sceptical optimist) as it is possible to say nothing worth anything using the language ( try reading Graduates posts) As always when we reduce a question of right action which means using the right triad to an either or question any answer becomes wrong because it is incomplete.
Bruce, no that wouldn’t be ok at all. I do have some concerns about it. I’m sure you’re seeing something that I’m not seeing. It’s a tough issue. I wish I knew what to say right now.
But I think, because of the degree of conflict of interest, it would behoove everyone, including Abraham, to see that in this case his leaving the FOF should be the prerequisite to an invitation. And I think if Abe was honest, he would agree.
Hi Observer, Thanks for your thoughtful and rather inspiring post! Its hard to know about each other in a virtual environment like this.
“I hope you take the idealism and desire to search for greater understanding and “self-remembering”, and keep those good parts and take them out to the broader world.”
I posted on the Greater Fellwoship my opinion on Abraham Goldman
One if it was really possible to ban the Fellowship heirarchy from spying on the Greater fellowship than a ban might be meaningful. It is not. If Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends desire to they can penetrate the Greater Fellowship. A ban is meaningless. Let Abraham join I believe he has more to fear from an honest exchange with former and currant students than they from him. There is actually very little discussion of the Fellowship on the Greater fellowship that is pretty much left to the blog and the blog is open to all anyway.
Two- It is hypocritical to critize the Fellowship for its exclusionary practices than turn around and propogate the same behaviors. It is time to have courage and faith in the power of truth and openness.
Observer #7: It’s really different strokes for different folks. In my group there was an 18 year old female who had never read Gurdjieff/Ouspensky. In fact there were several people who had not.
Myself, I had read Gurdjieff/Ouspensky/Collin/ Nicoll and received from those readings a spontaneous and continous awe/wow. That I never received from public school systems model of universal knowledge/understanding. In other words I was moved to begin a journey toward the miraculous.
What you are reading on this blog I never experienced. But, for everyone who experience the awe/wow, I can understand perfectly how they could stay for as long as they did.
What you are finding out, I just found out in the past six or so months. I do not have to walk in their shoes to understand their misery, sorrow or whatever sadness they are cleaning themselves from. I refer to those who have not yet disentangled their being from the FOF relationships. In old time 4th way lingo it was Magnetic Center who caused the stirring in my case.
Cyclops#589 Spasiba? I lack one course of having a minor in that language and that word is about all I remember. Oh, well.
“Two- It is hypocritical to criticize the Fellowship for its exclusionary practices than turn around and propagate the same behaviors. It is time to have courage and faith in the power of truth and openness.”
That’s a straw man. There’s a difference between exclusion to perpetuate the FOF bullshit and protect RB, and trying to protect members of the GF from AG. There is open exchange between the GF and FOF members who have joined, and has been from the beginning. Zero exclusion. We’re talking about a completely different and unique situation.
If AG or FOF proxies penetrate the GF surreptitiously, it would require some under-scum to serve as the proxy. How long might that occur before “no friends, no posts” becomes relatively obvious. Might there be someone who can, in any semblance of conscience (except maybe for AG) pretend a open hearted exchange with “friends” on the GF to simply turn over info to the FOF legal beagles?
For myself I studied and verified the ideas of the system before being in the Fellowship, in the Fellowship and since. They provide me with a useful tool to organize my thinking, my experiences, and understanding. Some ideas are simply part of my reality. This makes them neither true or false.They just are. There are certain areas that cannot be discussed without the “work language”. You cannot discuss the influence of type, features, alchemy or level of being without using the language because these are parts of the language.
The “work,” so-called, is an “ideology. ” Statements in the “work language” are “ideological statements,” i.e., value judgments in the guise of statements of fact.
Ideological statements only make sense in the context of the community of others making similar value judgments. Hence ideological language is not “value neutral,” it is “loaded,” i.e., it carries a whole set of assumptions with it, about what’s important in human life and in human community.
“Type,” for example, elevates the significance of particular endocrine glands in understanding human behavior. You can’t talk about “type” without implicitly signaling that you believe endocrine glands significantly explain people. Sometimes they might, but you can’t talk shorthand with people who don’t share the assumption that endocrinology is, in some measure, destiny.
“Alchemy” contains a mix of observations, about aesthetics about caste or socioeconomic class, and about the idea that these lie on a continuum. Again, socioeconomic class or caste may have some utility when trying to make sense of human behavior, but the “alchemy” idea contains a set of organizing assumptions about these things, and is not a value-neutral term.
The concept of “Features” lumps together descriptors of various automatic behaviors. It is hard to think of a more loaded word in the fourth way ideology. The word is inseparable from a value judgment about these various behaviors and tendencies and how they are to be regarded.
“Level of being” is a fancy ideological way of referring to a mixture of emotional maturity and cognitive adeptness.
These ideology-laden terms are value judgments, which operate to condition what we see and what we don’t see. The pernicious paradox: Ideologies such as these seem to promise greater understanding by organizing our perceptions into a unified system of knowledge and values. Ironically they prevent us from observing and understanding the very whole of which they, tantalizingly, seemed to offer a glimpse.
Anybody out there a fan of Thomas Kuhn and The Structure of Scientific Revolutions? Under that model, ideologies are like the paradigm under which “normal science” proceeds. But there are “anomalies” which don’t fit the model, which undermine the model, just like there are all kinds of perceptions concerning human nature which simply don’t fit body type, “alchemy,” “features,” “level of being,” “center of gravity,” and so forth. Sooner or later, seeing the world in those terms simply holds you back.
Like saying that there are no hierarchies in creation and to view the universe as one is the most correct view. Ironic, it has just put that view on top of a hierarchy of philosophies.
I still like the old metaphor of the map and the landscape.
You are standing on a foothill, snow capped mountains rising above. Oaks, wildflowers, golden grass rolling in gentle waves of breeze under a cottonball sky. In your hands you hold a map describing with mathematic precision every contour, elevation, and blade of grass.
Oh I can’t resist. Yes I am a Kuhn fan. Yes he describes ‘normal science’ which proceeds by articulation of the paradigm, then anomalies mount, and this is followed by periods of ‘revolutionary science’ where the paradigm breaks down and is replaced by a new one.
Kuhn was studying the social beahviour of scientists – who in their own way are seekers of truth, of reality. I read Kuhn over 30 years ago – and his viewpoint has stuck with me. But from my viewpoint of today I am struck by a couple of things.
First, how one set of mental constructs is replaced with a new set of mental constructs. The mind is always busy modeling the world. Direct perception of reality, of truth, continues to be filtered through the layer of a lens. Yes we throw away the old lens and then get a new one – but still there is a lens. If you take an ‘operationalist’ stance, then it is the ‘usefulness’ of the model that determines whether you stick to it or not. So if ‘type’ or ‘alchemy’ is useful – then adopt it, otherwise jettison it – if one can overcome the ‘structures’ which have lodged in oneself.
The second thing which strikes me is how hard it actually is to drop an old outworn paradigm – even if it has massive holes in it. Kuhn (studying scientists not 4th way practitioners) basically said you had to wait for the old scientists to die of old age before a new paradigm could take root. For myself, I have a personal clash of paradigms between the FOF/Gurjieffian Enneagram Body Types (which I still see) and the Ichazo/Naranjo derived Enneagram as written about by many, but which I have been taught in a manner similar to the presentation by Sandra Maitri.
When in the FOF I disdained, what I thought of as the pop psychology version of the profound truths we FOFers were immersed in. However I now see the profundity and deep current of Truth embodied in this other teaching. Yes and usefulness too. So has one paradigm replaced the other for me? Well no. Are both true? Maybe/probably/I don’t know/I think so. Is there a grand synthesis possible? Seems likely answer to that is no. So I see how the mind tenaciously holds to models it has already embraced – it is structure in the mind.
So Veronica, I agree with you when you say : “The pernicious paradox: Ideologies such as these seem to promise greater understanding by organizing our perceptions into a unified system of knowledge and values. Ironically they prevent us from observing and understanding the very whole of which they, tantalizingly, seemed to offer a glimpse.”
In a way, adherence to one view of the Enneagram or another, is just a childish plaything. However, it is emblematic of the difficulty of just seeing things the way they really are.
Some thoughts:
If AG’s interest in the GF were motivated by the aim to protect FOF interests, what would be gained by JOINING & displaying himself. The fact that AF sought to join vs. invisibly view using someone else’s login – or via a mole-spy – attests to the non-strategic nature of this request.
And why would he bother? What critical information is disseminated via this network? As a professional strategy, openly joining GF is majorly discrediting & laughably non-strategic. Abe must think we are dunces if we accuse him of that plot.
I can perceive no risk to anyone by AG maintaining a presence as a member of the GF. Some of the discussion sounds paranoid, fear-mongering —Kinda parochial, and lacking relativity. Do you think that Abe needs to be on GF to fulfill his FOF mandate??
Remember that even if AG is a member, you do not have connect as a friend, in which case he cannot see your page and your comments wall, etc.
Actually, I don’t give-a-s**t what Abe’s motives are, because they don’t matter. He can continue his job as protector of the FOF & Robert & employ his usual modus operandi – So what! what’s new? We have all played invidious roles at times in this drama; we need not behave like drama queens …Are we all our shrilling our horrid Abe stories right now? GF does not need parochial overreaching policy interference (thanks v. much William for raising the question –we needed to talk, it seems) ; the GF network is SO much bigger-in-concept and more resilient than our flutterings would imply. Abe is just one pixel in the big picture of our GF world. Get out of the teacup… Those HEAAVVVYY warning tonalities about Danger, and Damage and Threat are the produce of fevered imaginations, too much daytime TV and Spy thrillers. (Bruce 10, you are gorgeous as an old woman, wagging forefinger)
As to the heavee question of “FEELINGS”…how do we FeeeiiiLL about Abe’s name appearing on the Member tab?…are we so squeamish, so affectedly delicate, impacted by our BAD ABE experiences that we would set a precedent of banning, rather than let the actuality of “what is happening” play out in whatever universal way it will. Maybe Abe is our bad-guy-of-the-moment, but there are many others around here with marginally lesser degrees-of-culpability, and different types of offences. What were YOUR roles in the FOF & what were YOU doing exactly a few years ago? How do I feel about YOU? Should we all be put on trial & have our various offences weighed and measured?
I have less (personal) beef with Abe than I have with some of y’all. In particular, you who left owing 2 months rent, you who thieved my stuff, you who asked my spouse to marry you when I left the school – and all of you who decided I was DEAD because I left and therefore no more talking to me and open-season on my spouse, you who borrowed XX thousand of dollars and walked never intending to repay…you get the picture. Some of your pictures don’t realize dividends in the good FEELINGs department.
And what precedent are we setting by banning? To be thorough & fair would require complicated policy decisions – to elevate this issue beyond mere lynch mob/kangaroo court opportunism – and to establish the broader applicability of our banning policy –unless this issue is the baby of those with ABE-beef to chew. And if YES to that, then the those with Abe-beef are embroiling us all in an issue of limited & personal nature. We should not institutionalize personal bad feelings in our GF mandate.
And if, in relation to Abe, we open the BAD-Feelings door, then we should in fairness open the GOOD feelings door. I know GOOD feelings exist out there for ABE. Can they be used as offsets, or are we only parlaying the bad stuff here?
So get real, get big, get over it, don’t waste time on it. Let ABE join and see what an amazing, spectacular, phenomenally awesome NOTHING happens
–excepting the minor option that Abe just gets overwhelmed by our principled acceptance, open-mindedness, good humor, & rationality and resigns his role.
But THAT would not be the aim, because Abe is incidental; our interest is in conducting ouselves in a principled and moderate way, and setting the Greater Fellowship up on a sound foundation.
That was a long, interesting load of crap. AG is the FOF lawyer. That’s it. You can make of it what you want, including an epic, if that’s your thing.
Otherwise, as long as he is in that position, there is no reason for his invitation to GF. Business is business. It’s conflict of interest. Period.
He himself said, you are right to ban me. WTF, you mean you know, and he doesn’t. Probably the one honest thing he’s done in awhile and you are fucking negating it. Who the hell are you?
The exact quote from the correspondence” with William was:
“I asked Abraham if he could say something that would help people be less afraid of him. He did not say something like “I am here ONLY for personal reasons” or “Don’t worry, I have only good intentions for the group”. His honest answer was that it was wise to ban him.”
For those interested, Noyes v. Kelly Services, Inc., a 2007 decision of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, involving allegations of “reverse religious discrimination” against Fellowship of Friends nonmembers, is now online:
Hello! Now that I think I understand what happened with regard to Abe’s stealthy appearance on the Greater Fellowship site (I’m not yet a member of that site and don’t know how it works), and having read the last stream of viewpoints, I am inclined to agree with your position.
Abe’s presence on these sites is, for now, a glaring conflict of interest. He is without a doubt a “wolf in sheep’s clothing.” Simply because he is there to do his job. Period. No judgment; just fact.
Until he lays down his legal sword, and is willing to smoke a peace-pipe around the campfire, he should be banned from participation.
“…as it is possible to say nothing worth anything using the language ( try reading Graduates posts)…”
***************************
(I contemplated posting the following as a reply to this fool once before, but inner considered the reaction I’d receive for picking on the mentally handicapped)
Look carefully at the following words: Scott you are mildly retarded. This is not a gratuitous insult, I mean it literally.
You are not functioning with the same quality of equipment that the average person is endowed with. Do not imagine that you are capable of generating an exacting line of logic and therefore able to carry on a reasonable argument. You are insistently and aggressively out-spoken only because you are damaged by what is commonly known as narcissistic personality disorder, which commonly accompanies ‘borderline psychosis’. Quite likely you are also an alcohol and substance abuser (my guess, not my accusation) in a futile attempt to self-medicate in order to relieve the discomfort of your psychological symptoms. Pay to have an IQ test conducted on yourself and carefully consider the results in comparison with the average citizen and then shut the fuck up.
I consider myself a good friend of Abraham, and I respect him and his abilities as a lawyer. As to the parties he chooses to defend, well, that is another matter.
I agree with Joel and others that the Greater Fellowship site — anyway, what I imagine the GF to be in very idealistic terms — should of course be non-exclusionary.
However, in his role as Fellowship lawyer, Abe’s job is to find ways to remove threats, real or perceived, to the well-being and existence of the Fellowship of Friends. This blog and the GF site are perceived threats.
And so, those of us who value these forums should take common sense steps to shield them from intruders and possible harm, so that they can continue to grow and prosper and become freely what they will, in a spirit of malice toward none.
5 KA
Thanks. You probably have a pretty good solution. After reading the forum I’m much more ambivalent. Oh well.
And I don’t find the blog negative at all. Some of these distinctions are really old and tired, yes?
6 Bruce
Thanks for the tip, I didn’t realize it was going on on the forum. RobertC and others brought a lot of common sense to the topic. See comment above.
Remember the story of the scorpion and the frog?
A scorpion comes to a body of water which has developed in the path of his way back home.
He meets a frog and asks him if he can carry him across on his back.
The frog is rightly afraid and says so.
The scorpion allays his fears by telling him it would be stupid to sting him because he himself cant swim and it would be suicide.
After considering the logic of this the frog agrees to ferry the scorpion over to the other side.
About half way over the scorpion stings the frog.
As they are both dying one from poison the other from drowning the frog asks the scorpion why he did it as now they will both die.
I cant help it, Im a scorpion, says the scorpion its my nature!
To those having a nice debate about work language. The ideas of body type and Alchemy are only work ideas in a little known pseudo-school called the fof.
They have been assimilated into it from other non fourth way sources.
In the average fourth way group having no connection to the fof these ideas are not used as they are not directly referred to by Mr Gurdjieff.
Having said this I personally value them and the actual work ideas too, as a finger pointing to the moon but remember not to look too much at the finger as Bruce Lee said “or you miss all the heavenly glory.”
Ltya Cy.
In the name of Religion
Church leader’s sexual trysts cause membership defections
The San Diego Union-Tribune/March, 1995
By Gordon Smith – Staff Writer
Topics
Psychological trauma
Philosophy supports sex drive
Taken advantage of
Members nervous around leader
Departures create financial bind
OREGON HOUSE, Yuba County- Five months after he had a sexual encounter with Robert Burton, the founder and leader of the Fellowship of Friends, Richard Laurel wrote an open letter to his fellow members in the group.
The letter explained that Burton had asked Laurel to become a night guard at his chateaulike home at the Fellowship’s headquarters, called Apollo, here in the tiny foothill community of Oregon House. Among the duties of the guards, Laurel said, was to give Burton massages.
Like most members of the Fellowship, Laurel went on to say, he considered Burton to be practically a god, and someone whom he “could fully trust in every regard.”
So it surprised and shocked him, Laurel said, when during a massage, Burton pulled down his (Laurel’s) pants and, without a word, performed oral sex on him.
“I felt betrayed and used by the man who I thought was my spiritual father,” wrote Laurel, who prefers to be identified by the surname he used while in the Fellowship.
It bothered him even more when he found out that many other members, including his teen-age son, had been pursued for sex by Burton for years, added Laurel, who is married.
Laurel’s letter led to a wave of resignations and expulsions of longtime members of the group. The resulting loss of as much as $500,000 in annual dues may have in turn sparked a financial crisis, according to some former members.
But a spokesman for Fellowship denied that it’s in financial trouble.
And Abraham Goldman, Burton’s attorney, insisted that the sexual encounter between Burton and Laurel was consensual.
“It was not the only time they had physical affection with each other,” Goldman added. “Mr. Laurel’s letter doesn’t tell the full story.”
It did, however, lead some longtime members to question Burton s behavior-partly because Laurel’s complaint echoed charges made against Burton and the Fellowship in a lawsuit by former member Samuel Sanders in 1984.
Sanders claimed he felt betrayed when he discovered that Burton made a habit of having sex with rank-and-file members, most of them heterosexual males and many of them married.
But he gradually came to believe that the philosophy was being used to support Burton’s personal desires for control and sex.
“I was needy for spiritual guidance, and I guess if you’re needy, you re willing to take certain things for granted more than you would if you’re not quite as gullible,” said Van Gaal.
He began resisting Burton’s advances after getting married in 1990, and left the Fellowship last October, he said.
Attorney Goldman said Burton had a consensual sexual relationship with Van Gaal.
“I can’t say how long it lasted or how often it occurred. But there were times when Mr. (Van Gaal) initiated the meetings.” Goldman said.
He pointed out that laws vary from state to state regarding whether sex between a religious leader and a disciple-or a doctor and patient, for that matter-is illegal.
“Mr. Burton has never abused his position of power or trust with a member, either involving a sexual relationship or any other aspect of his teaching,” Goldman added.
A current Fellowship member who said he became one of Burton’s Lovers for a time while separated from his wife agreed.
“Robert’s in a position of power being the founder of the Fellowship… but I don’t think he misuses that position”, said the man, who asked to remain anonymous.
“I’ve refused Robert sex,” he said, “If someone feels pressure to give in it’s basically their imagination.
“One thing that rules most of our lives is what people think of us,” he went on, “I feel I took a big step in the direction of being free from that” through having sex with Burton.
However Carl Mautz, a former lawyer for the Fellowship who helped defend the group during Sander’s lawsuit, said Burton’s sexual relationships with members are “an obvious abuse of power.”
Like many other former members of the group, Mautz said he wasn’t offended by Burton’s homosexuality, but by the inherently domineering aspects of a leader having sex with his followers.
Taken advantage of
Not all members of the Fellowship are approached for sex by Burton, Mautz noted. But Johan Van Gaal “was completely taken advantage of.”
In their 1993 book “The Guru Papers,” authors Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad reported that cult leaders often express and consolidate control over their disciples through sex.
Ironically, people who submit to experimental sex with their spiritual leaders often see themselves as liberated spiritual adventures, they wrote.
“That many discontented and innovative people were unwittingly seduced into submission… indicates the depth of people’s susceptibility to authoritarian control,” they said.
Goldman insisted Burton did not seduce Laurel or Van Gaal, “Sexual relations can arise from mutual attraction,” he said.
However the member who is currently Burton’s lover spoke of originally turning Burton down “when he first approached me,” and added, “It is always up to the person he, Burton, is propositioning to say no.”
In any case as Kramer and Alstad pointed out, most [devotees who study under a specific] spiritual leader-and make that study the focus of their lives-find it difficult to deny the leader anything, even when he or she openly expresses a sexual interest.
Moreover, the ideologies of small religious groups typically discourage any questioning of the leader’s actions, they said.
The Fellowship is no exception.
Members are taught that Burton is a higher being with understanding they do not have, said Mautz.
“People in the Fellowship who aren’t close to Robert act around him the way your ordinary 14-year-old would act around Michael Jordan,” Mautz said.
Members nervous around leader
“They’re nervous. They fumble for words. It’s a totally uneven playing field.”
Joel Friedlander, a former spokesman and board member for the Fellowship who resigned last year, agreed.
“One of the teachings of the Fellowship is that doubts come from the false part of yourself. That’s an effective control mechanism,” he said.
Cynthia Hill, the Fellowship’s director of public relations, insisted that while members strive not to express negative emotions, any topic can be discussed as long as it’s in “a neutral tone of voice.”
And longtime member Colin Lambert said the Fellowship has a teacher-student relationship that is based on established spiritual tradition and is difficult for many Americans, schooled in democratic principles, to understand.
“We do not believe that a teacher has to explain himself to his students,” Lambert said. “But you voluntarily enter this relationship, and take responsibility.”
Such ideas support Burton’s continued leadership and lifestyle. But as Lambert acknowledged, only those who trust the teacher stay in the group. Those who don’t, leave.
Charles Randall, the Fellowship’s former business manager, left last October in the wake of Laurel’s letter.
After 21 years in the group, he said, he came to believe Burton was effectively manipulating the minds as well as the bodies of members through a self-serving philosophy.
“I’m kind of humiliated by the whole thing,” said Randall.
“I thought it was the one true way, but as it turns out, it was just a cult.”
He’s among about 100 members who resigned or were expelled in the aftermath of Laurel’s letter, according to Mautz.
Departures create financial bind
The changes could put financial pressure on the group, Mautz said.
“That’s a huge amount of money” to lose in the form of annual dues, he explained (most members give 10 percent of their income to the group).
In fact, the Fellowship is in default on most of its 1994 property taxes, and owes more than $415,000 in ‘94-’95 taxes, penalties and interest. The 1,300 acres owned by the group are valued at nearly $21 million, said a spokesman for the Yuba County assessor’s office.
Hill said the Fellowship will initiate a payment plan later this year to cover taxes in arrears.
“This situation is not unusual for businesses,” she said. “As often occurs with young wineries in particular, cash-flow difficulties may arise as production and sales become equalized.”
Others say that whatever the group’s finances, Burton’s predictions of a catastrophic earthquake followed by nuclear holocaust could lead to a crisis down the road.
Margaret Singer, a professor emeritus of psychology at UC Berkeley who has counseled thousands of former cult members, said both doomsday predictions and mass suicides (which she called mass murders since they are orchestrated by cult leaders) will increase as the end of the millenium nears.
“All these cult ‘prophets’ enjoy reading significance into the change in the millenium,” she said.
Friedlander said he doesn’t think the Fellowship’s doomsday scenario will lead that far.
“But you can’t rule it out,” he said. “‘The Fellowship certainly has the idea of gathering the faithful for the coming holocaust, of creating a self-contained community, and believing that former members are out to get them.”
Randall believes the Fellowship will almost certainly endure, as it did after the lawsuit by Samuel Sanders.
Burton is unlikely to destroy the vehicle that enables him to indulge his whims, Randall said.
And as doubters leave and loyalists stay. he pointed out, the group becomes more cohesive than ever.
>For myself, I have a personal clash of paradigms between the FOF/Gurjieffian Enneagram Body Types (which I still see) and the Ichazo/Naranjo derived Enneagram as written about by many, but which I have been taught in a manner similar to the presentation by Sandra Maitri.
FWIW I don’t see them clashing. As I look at both of them, I have taken to calling the 6+1 type an impersonal dimension of essence. The psychological structure that results is deterministically derived from the physical organism. Simone de Bouvoir has the idea that sex is a “species function” and so a person, insofar as they take their identity as their sex/gender, is not really an individual. You can’t be a fully human character by playing only the role of one with your style of genitals. It is a coarse-grained map.
I have “seen” people acting through their 9-type ego in the manner of their body type.
I don’t think integrating them is at issue; they are clearly different maps, the 9-type being the expression of a competent contemporary teaching. I do have the ambition to understand how, if at all, they are interrelated. At a recent seminar, S. Maitri stated that some people, after extensive work on their 9-type, find to their surprise another, apparently secondary type structure to be in evidence. This is recognizable to me as a triple-active type with passive “features”.
On this same subject, it was related to me via the GF that the full-blown FoF type knowledge can be found in a book that dates to before the Renaissance period (I mean prior to 1600 C.E., not a pun). Speculation is that the author may be Jacob Boehme. Some of the really really old people may know about this. I would appreciate any recollections, heresay, nasty rumors etc. on the subject.
If AG goes on the greater fell I will be of the list. Joel if you can not read the signs and understand what it means for people, who are in and or still on the fence I can not help you to understand. A is a lawyer. I enjoy and respect him as a person…but he is a lawyer and has double interests and …he will use that info. He is as sharp as a knife and is not very good in listening to you.
Being on the greater fellowship is for me a way of healing and not with the possibility that I might be threatened with a law suite sooner or later. Have you guys any idea how much energy it takes to get a notice that you might have to appear in court….Have you ever. For many people it means lots of time and for some sleepless nights and a lot of money.
Dear Abe can call lots of friends if he needs to do something else when he has a spare moment. Maybe a walk would help his health. Balances his centers or listening to the pain and hurt (call them victims if you wish) of many friends and ex students. Does he call his ex students friends like Steven? Or does he avoid them with the nose up? They live a stone throw from each other.
Why do you think the greaterfell is ONLY BY INVITATION.
Please consider the students with v-s-a and g-c.
Love to all of you
Yes sheik what is up with you? I wish you all the warmth and joy and thanks for what has happened here.
Bruce thanks for your contributions.
Cyclops thanks for the frog and scorpion story…that sshould tell us enoughin this matter.
“In my experience, Abe is a gentle, sincere, and intelligent fellow. If he has had to show his professional teeth over the years as an attorney in defense of the FoF, well — that’s his job in his chosen context.
HAR!! Just doin’ his job. A swell team player!! And quite the smart fellar.
“A host of you fellow bloggers were once very good at the jobs you did! Digging holes, planting palm trees, cooking Italian dinners, planning events, acting, dancing, and so on and on.’
Yes, you blue collar, trailer park dwelling ex-students. You sure dug good holes for palm trees, and made a mean calimari, much as kind, honest Abe applied his noble trade. Wait, he mostly settled out-of-court with these same hard-working students’ money!!
“So, please do consider the possibility that Abraham may just need to delve into this dark world of ‘the blog’, for himself! Give him a break. Welcome him to participate.”
I question the benefits for Abe in delving into “this dark world of ‘the blog.’”
Closing 2 doors of perception could get a little scary. You are 2 steps closer to being completely alone with yourself.
I referred in an earlier post [14 #568] to a land called, Benefit-of-the-Doubt, as a place where current students try to find a way to relate to Robert Burton as their Teacher.
“In it’s early and initial stages, the-Benefit-of-the-Doubt means the land of No-“I’s”, a wonderful space for Self Remembering. One learns to react to Robert in the space of having no “I’s”, by simply trying to be present and transform all the contradictions. [Incidentally, I have a few well placed Friends who are flying quite high in that place.] In it’s later stages, the-Benefit-of-the-Doubt, digresses to the land of No-Eyes, an unwillingness to accept the reality that is in front of one’s face.”
After posting that comment yesterday, I realized I had missed the most important middle ground between No-“I’s” and No-Eyes. It is called My-Lies. My-Lies is a very individual (yet commonly shared) space where a person places all of his or her intelligence, emotion, and commitment at the service of something Higher (what they perceive to be a School and a Teacher), finding a way to explain to himself or herself how Robert’s manifestations could be acceptable as manifestations of a Conscious Being (HC is a great example of such a travesty). This whole internet discussion can be seen as an exploration into the land of the-Benefit-of-the-Doubt, which turns out to be quite a mine field, after all. No-Eyes meets My-Eyes; My-Lies meets My-Truth. And somehow we all try to communicate with one another, by the grace of the Shiek and this blog.
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David B [#579]
You encourage departing Friends to “consider not going quietly.” I agree, however confrontation will not suffice. I’m sure you can appreciate that anyone who emits the least hint of negativity towards Robert and the School within the confines of the Fellowship of Friends CANNOT BE HEARD. Without, of course, is to be expected. That is why so many fine students out there (Cake Please’s, Lucie, people we have known and loved ) have chosen to remain in state of No-Eyes, thereby avoiding the “negativity” of the Blog. It is a shame because the truth here can set them free – of their own illusions – should they wish it.
So is there a way to help our Friends? I can only suggest trying a Socratic type of questioning dialogue using the Fourth Way concepts, exploring what G & O could have meant by the term Conscience. Neutral. Non confrontational. Loving. Searching. Probing. As this blog has become. Nisargadatta was a master at it. BTW: We do have to have transformed our own negative emotions in order to do it…tricky business.
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To Comrade via Words and Reality [#3], Veronicapoe [#24], etc…
On the use of Language, Work or otherwise. Interesting posts, all of them. The language we use defines the reality we choose to experience. The language of the Fourth Way opened wide doors for many of us. Doors that can also be seen as limiting, separating partitions of a living reality.
Consider the words of Shunryu Suzuki on the use of mind:
“As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw.”
Thanks for your post.
Also consider people who do not want or can move away from Isis. Or people who have children at the LCS? The G-C V-s-a people? You do not want to atracked too much negativity.
By the way..I am still interested in sitting.
Did we not give robert the benefit of the doubt????? Soooo long.
#542 Sharon
He indicated that he would like to be a member of the site as a “pleasant way to take a break from the daily routine at the office.”
??? May be it would be better to change job?
Here is my answer to William
I receive your letter concerning A.Goldman.
Personally I don’t care for myself although I am questioning the real motivation of his choice:
What proof of good will A.Goldman can give?
Could he write on his ”member page” a message concerning all the subscribers showing his position towards every one here?
What is he really defending? I know that everything is not completely black or white, but A.Goldman has a specific role in the school and defend a certain aspect of it. Can he explain his initial position towards the blog, for example?
I am also thinking to all these students still in the FOF and who joined the Greater Fellowship . They are in a much more vulnerable situation than we are, even though they had the courage to subscribe (to GF)against the position of the FOF, they are still exposed to direct pressures from the FOF.
We have a expression in France which says:
“Do not let return the wolf in the sheep-barn“
May be the last word should come from the students who are still in and are exposed in the GF.
Joel if you can not read the signs and understand what it means for people, who are in and or still on the fence I can not help you to understand.
See above. After reading the discussion on GF, I flipped to vote for not allowing AG on at this time. KA has a good compromise, and there are many other worthwhile suggestions.
In the end I just had to respect the members of the GF who are still in the FoF. Inclusion is a great idea, but maybe Bruce is right in making AG a singular exception.
Thanks for all the input and the opportunity to process this with everyone’s help.
On inner circle students joining the Greater Fellowship.
I wonder to what extent we realize that the strong inner circle of the fellowship of friends is composed of people who have meticulously divided into two very precise personalities. If anyone has lived with anyone of them closely for a good number of years, you would have angles to share on how this manifests when looked at closely. We cannot underestimate this state because looked at deeply it reveals that one of the personalities moved with a certain degree of success and the other one, too. The beauty and the beast are both powerfull. The I that is willing to give itself up for Robert and the I that is willing to work on itself and become a better human being, both developed amongst these students, in fact, all of us, but in them to a very different degree and in them, the I that was willing to give itself up for Robert at their own cost, prevails much more strongly while in the rest of us it does not, or at least to a lesser degree. They are in a much more delicate, dangerous and difficult position than the rest of us. They are willing to act against themselves and the people around them to hold Robert above, hence what makes others think that they would not act against you, us, to protect Robert?
I was much surprised at a formal dinner with Girard at the galleria when our friend who is so soft, good willing and kind reacted to my questioning of Robert with a powerfull and angry: “The sequence works,” he would have hit me if he could have and the kind, soft and goodwilling personality dissolved into a ferocious and determined man faced with an enemy.
If you read the Way of illness, a wonderfully practical book on how the body tries to balance the infinite contradictions of the soul, you’ll find a few paragraphs that mention how the ear is somethink like Pinochio’s little grasshopper telling us the right, or moral direction to take and ear diseases and infections are closely related to the fact that we’ve become deaf to the grass hoper inside.
These facts may be uncomfortable to all of us since we all suffer from different illnesses but they are as liberating as difficult to endure.
Going back to the subject, the question might be: How do we help each other out of that duality if it is really help what we wish to do? I personally believe some of those people, most of those people, have divided so drastically that they would have to be willing to take deep treatment to have a chance to get out of that situation in this lifetime, beginning with Robert. Almost a whole society or community, much more powerful than the fellowship would have to take care of such individuals in a very careful manner to lead them out of the extreme duality without equally damaging them. Probably only the Gods and life itself knows how to do that. I doubt, but would be pleasently surprised if proved wrong, that we in the greater fellowship, could counteract strongly enough the state of distortion that they have put themselves in.
I do think that if such students wish to participate in the blog, it is a much better medium than the Greater Fellowship for they have a process to deal with before they can really call themselves friends. They were nobody’s friend but Robert’s inside the Fellowship, it takes a lot of work to become everybody’s friend or even just impartial. The real measure would begin if they could at least show that they have been able to befriend their own self above Robert. Then perhaps they could befriend others. The blog tests, pulls and breaks many of the necessary strings to allow for such process to at least begin. It has to do with the magic of conversation or COMMUNICATION, harsh as it may be often.
I haven’t invited Girard to the greater fellowship because I think he would be at least honest enough to say that he is not interested in belonging to it. My guess is that he would wish to remain in the “intact bubble of the fellowship”.
This is actually interesting because perhaps such students could join the greater fellowship if they asked? Don’t we know that considering such option is actually against Robert’s direction and for any one of them to join the GF sincerely is an act against the traditional fellowship form?
Maybe a few questions and material to read and respond for could be asked from such students, maybe they could give an account of their involvement in the fellowship from their point of view, maybe they could be heard if they were willing to talk which I doubt, for that is already, too beautiful a willingness. But sooner or later, to us or to others, they must talk and be heard, like the rest of us.
Indeed, just closing doors is the worst option because it is a dead end that will strengthen the extremes. The issue is delicate, how delicate are we?
Abe was voted off the island by an angry and frightened mob. On a purely reactive level they are right: kill all the grizzly bears, wolves and rattlesnakes. On an esoteric level a fateful opportunity was missed. Facing and transforming threats is the antithesis of reacting with power and fear.
On another level this was a case over equal rights. Is this new society intelligent enough to recognize the ideals of its own arising? “Greater Fellowship,” meaning those that have been rejected for their convictions are gathered together to become greater than those that reject them and the first thing we do when faced with a dilemma is reject one of our primary rejecters. That was a failure of conscience. We are now the same as they are.
One of the central excuses for this action was that people still in the Fellowship of Friends would not feel comfortable in the Greater Fellowship if one of the central figures of the Fellowship was visibly inside the sanctuary. Look at the insanity of such an excuse. If you are a member of an organization where the central figures so terrify that you are fearful to be seen by them at a location where you might feel safe then you are obviously trapped in psychotic cult. Get out.
“If AG or FOF proxies penetrate the GF surreptitiously, it would require some under-scum to serve as the proxy. How long might that occur before “no friends, no posts” becomes relatively obvious. Might there be someone who can, in any semblance of conscience (except maybe for AG) pretend a open hearted exchange with “friends” on the GF to simply turn over info to the FOF legal beagles?”
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Bruce, this may already be happening. I know of one invitation that I consider questionable and pretty much assumed they had gotten themselves an invitation (from another current member who is flirting with both sides) in order to allow FOF officials to enter the site.
Elena, in your post #50 you mentioned a book “The Way of Illness.” It sounds interesting to me, but I couldn’t find it when I searched the internet or amazon.com. Do you know where I might find it? Thanks.
Wasn’t it you that wanted to start a separate blog because you felt that the Sheik, as an outsider, was the wrong person to oversee a blog of insiders? A blog that was open to everyone from it’s inception.
And now a network that requires an invitation should be open to everyone, according to you. Seems like your opinion, once again, has more to do with your apparent need for control and your inflated sense of self, something that, it appears, you are the only one sharing.
Why not start your own network and invite AG as your first member. You can call it “Legend in my own mind”.
“Facing and transforming threats is the antithesis of reacting with power and fear.”
Facing and transforming threats encompasses much more than not reacting with power and fear. It also includes delineating and defining which threats are real and which are imaginary. There are quite a few people who have dealt with very real threats emanating from AG, whether they were in the right or not, that has required inestimable time, money and inner energy. Calculating for these possibilities is more important than saying to one’s self “I must avoid at all costs reacting from fear, and use my power appropriately”.
Fear can be one of one’s most powerful senses when used correctly. It should be part of what one uses to discriminate, not identify.
In response to post # 20 Veronicapoe writes
The “work,” so-called, is an “ideology. ” Statements in the “work language” are “ideological statements,” i.e., value judgments in the guise of statements of fact.
Ideology 2
a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture
b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture
c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program
In regards to using ideology to describe “The System” I accept definition A as one that is accurate but only to a degree.
However here we see Veronica Poe using definition B.
“Ideological statements only make sense in the context of the community of others making similar value judgments.”
This is a little slight of hand. It is a fact that the “work language” and the “system” exist separately from any specific community. It is not a proven accepted fact that “The System” fits this definition. To base a whole arguement on an unproven fact indicates a lack of basic logical reasoning.First you need to prove or in the least make a reasonable argument that “The System” is an idealogy as described in B. The use of the language by The Fellowship of Friends may be faulty. This does not prove the ideas themselves are incorrect. Calling the work language an ideology and than assuming it is incorrect because you define it as an ideology is circular reasoning. Ideology in and of itself is not proof of whether a system of concepts is correct. To make this illogical jump is to say that any systematic body of concepts that is any philosophy that has ever existeed must of itself be false.
The author avoids the one significant item which to me was central in my post. This is self remembering. The system exists only in relation to self remembering. Individual consciousness is what defines the correctness or incorrectness of the system. If self remembering itself is not possible than the system which uses this as a core idea is meaningless. Addressing ideas like body type, features, alchemy and level of being independently from self remembering indicates the author has no idea what the actual subject is. Also while type, alchemy and features are important in the Fellowship they are only secondary in terms of the system. If as in the context I was using them they help communication then they are a useful tool. The larger concept I was addressing is thaT there can be no reconciliation between those to whom self remembering is real and those to whom it is not. If Veronica Poe wants to argue self remembering is not real to her then that is their truth. I cannot question that. However If they wasted much of their life pursuing something that does not exist that does not make it a fact for everyone. Nor does the fact that there may be those who are currant and former members of the Fellowship of Friends who never experienced self remembering and verification of ideas in the system for themselves.
Veronica Poe states
“These ideology-laden terms are value judgments, which operate to condition what we see and what we don’t see. The pernicious paradox: Ideologies such as these seem to promise greater understanding by organizing our perceptions into a unified system of knowledge and values. Ironically they prevent us from observing and understanding the very whole of which they, tantalizingly, seemed to offer a glimpse.”
This again is a slight of hand. Presenting an unproven statements as fact and drawing conclusions from these “facts” is the height of faulty thinking. In this last statement she is again taken unproven arguments as facts. “they ( any systematic group of concepts) prevent us from observing and understanding” this is not proven. What is missing is any personal experience. Who is this person to write “Ironically they prevent us from observing and understanding” this is using “us” as a universal. To be true there can be no exception to the arguement. I say my own experience is different.
As a bold change what if we actually look at what I wrote?
What did I state that Veronica Poe is apparently arguing about? That the system works for me? Well If I say so who are you or anyone to argue the truth of this? Who can tell me this is false? And if it is false does it prove that the system is at fault? The basic premise of the “system” as introduced by Ouspensky was as “objective knowledge”. If there is an argument it should begin with whether this is possible or not. The system itself is accessible and as presented I.E. as a universal it should only take finding specific area’s where it is false to prove it is not objective knowledge. If as It appears that Veronica is arguing that the system is not objective knowledge,wouldn’t it make more sense to state this as a premise rather than assume it as proven?
I am offended at the personal tone of the argument. Veronica Poe appears to be telling me that I am not allowed to have my own verifications, that my own experience is not a worthy judge of my reality, that this very poorly thought out and poorly delivered argument should supersede my own experience. I don’t think so. This post changes scales as if the author has never encountered the idea. My scale was one, my experience, it was about my experience. This is practical scale. Veronica Poe uses a theoretical scale in which their own experience is notably absent. The two scales are not reconcilable.
I do not question anothers right to their opinion. I do reserve the right to mine and take offense not at those who might disagree with my opinion but who question my right to it.
Back to something that makes sense. What is missing from this exercise in intellectual gymnastics is personal verification. It is all written as intellectual arguments without the discipline required to have it make sense in that context. If the author was to any where state “In my opinion” or “in my experience” it would change everything. The tone is however that of arguing facts. Yet at every step there are no facts just assumptions. The one fact that is very accessible which is an individual experience of self remembering is missing. This was the central idea in my post. To respond to any part with out addressing thisis meaningless. It has no context. Make it simple. Is self remembering possible? Yes or no.
In conclusion Veronica Poe writes
“Sooner or later, seeing the world in those terms simply holds you back.”
This is a false statement. You do not know what I experience. Speak for yourself. Nor do you know if this is true for everyone, speak for your self. If this is your truth speak for yourself.
If you wrote “at some point any intellectual construct can become an obstacle to experiencing reality as it is or even just anything new” I would agree. You did not write this, I just did. You wrote a whole post that does not say anything about the subject under discussion as a means of putting forth some ill thought out opinions. A lot of the peanut gallery agree with your post. This should make you happy and is an unfortunate commentary on the level of thinking developed in the Fellowship. This use of sweeping unproven generalities and using unproven “facts” to prove a point is highly typical of the way members of the Fellowship tend to think. This is typical of the post of Howard Carter . This poor thinking more than using a specific language or the ideas of “The System” is really a problem and indicates a serious limitation. The problems with my thinking are never out there. Whether I chose to use the system is not your problem. Being unable to identify and address the subject is.
The subject was self remembering.
A few thoughts about the debate over whether AG should be allowed in Greater Fellowship:
1. My view of both the blog and the GF is that their most important role right now is to open the possibility of dialogue with current members. Obviously there are other benefits and other beneficiaries, but for current members these forums literally present a life line.
2. Ironically, the only way current members can be given the benefit of the doubt and be invited / welcomed to GF is by accepting the real possibility that some of them may have virulent pro-FOF motives. The more you peel back this onion the more it looks like a cold war spy story, with agents and counter-agents, and maybe a few innocent victims.
3. The discussion about AG in effect ascribes him, at least in our imaginations, much more power than he may actually have. Ironically, having experienced what it feels like on the inside through my role at RVW during the FOF’s publicity crises of the late 90’s, I can guarantee that AG, LT and others are in the midst of a siege mentality now. To a great extent it is THEY who fear YOU / US, more than the other way around. When I write “you” I refer to everyone participating in this blog and in the GF, and especially current members who the FOF-loyalists fear could either poison the well at Isis, or simply leave and withdraw financial or other resources that are critical to the FOF’s well-being and survival.
4. So here is my question: what is the higher right? (Sorry, yes, it is work language.) I’m not referring to justice or compassion for individuals like AG, but to the whole bigger picture. Who knows what internal events may actually happen to loyal current members who expose themselves to the blog and the GF, albeit with RB’s best interests at heart? They themselves may not realize the power of truth and open dialogue, and what may be changed in them as a result. And if we further a policy of banning these people, how can we distinguish those with innocent motives from those with malicious ones? Again, I am posing these questions from a place of pragmatism not nobility.
5. All that said, I still think AG should be kept outside. Let him sneak in if he wants, but do not allow his “loving student” banner to wave as a symbolic skull-and-crossbones in the GF, and a perceived threat to other current members.
This debate, with all of its wonderful points and counterpoints… Would it ever occur in the Fellowship of Friends?
Imagine the discussion at one of the meetings several years ago…
“Well, I think the decision to expel [name your ex-student] from the Fellowship is questionable at best. His criticism of Robert Burton is very reasonable, and we would all benefit from listening to him. For the remainder of the meeting, we will discuss his concerns, and everyone is welcome to convey their angles on this topic… I think someone had their hand up over there in the corner. Is that Ames? OK, Ames, go ahead…”
The students who are still in the FOF and who subscribe to the G.F are breaking an exercise given by the teacher.
To my knowledge, it is the first time that students did that, publicly, in the school, giving their name and their photos, standing up to the teacher and the established rules.
I consider that this a highly respectable attitude.
A former student
Having tangled with you before on the subject of logic, ideology, etc., I believe that you are not sufficiently rigorous in your own reasoning; you often miss entirely, or misunderstand, the main theme of a discussion. You take ideas & treat them according to your own inconsistent home-grown & idiosyncratic understandings.
Whereas VeronicaPoe’s contributions are based on formal understandings, your contributions seem undisciplined and are peppered with a mish mash of contradictory ideas.
Your attempts to use the language and concept labels of formal logic, scientific method, etc. backfire on you by revealing a lack of formal education – at least in this area – which lack may explain your susceptibility & over commitment to the rigid conceptual paradigm that it is served up in the FOF.
Incidentally, the effort to elevate system ideas beyond their intended scope undermines their real value. The Fourth Way ideas have a subtler & specialized utility – for the spiritual seeker only. You seem to manifest the egotistical need to attribute the system of ideas – to which YOU attach YOUR identity – a much greater universality and significance than is actual.
Perhaps your Ego-Identity is discomforted by the notion that your life exists within a conceptual framework that – in the eyes of many – would brand you as a “weirdo” or an ignoramus – hence the need to argue so elaborately to prove their “truth” and to undermine commonly accepted notions.
“If you are a member of an organization where the central figures so terrify that you are fearful to be seen by them at a location where you might feel safe then you are obviously trapped in psychotic cult. Get out.”
Graduates (currently 51)
Bravo! I share your vision of the GF & interpretation of AG policy. Anyway, banning is merely symbolic: AG can monitor the GF regardless of policy.
Ah lamentation…I cannot help but feel that – in the world of all possibilities – we eliminated a few: we ‘acted out’ a weakness & introduced a limitation.
WH’s message did indeed define the only nearly-valid basis for the policy (the same policy could be implemented for many lesser reasons).
“Conflict of interest”, I can almost swallow —except that the conflict part is imaginary if you subtract the “feeling-reactions” and pare the issue down to the practical.
But in our own (questionable) mythology, we have been long “imprisoned and tortured” so cannot be expected to regard our “captors” with equanimity, nor regard them as inconsequential.
I hope we will in time come to see the policy as the manifestation of that state of fear, resentment, and paranoia that exists in the pendulum-swing away from the FOF.
PS.
Dear Graduates, I think you worked your way to a fever pitch in your last paragraph, and concluded with a Liverpudlian Kiss to the banning “majority”…I think I’ll stay behind with the arnica & comfrey leaf…leave the “in” or “out” dogmatism to the FOF’ters.
First of all, let me say that I am sorry I offended you personally and I apologize. My statements were not meant to belittle or ridicule you, although I used material you presented and obviously cherish and I publicly dissected some of the things you said. You are certainly entitled to your opinions and beliefs and I did not mean to suggest that you are not.
Permit me however to discuss some of the points you made. I do not intend this questioning as a competition with you, but as an open dialogue which invites the opinions of others. You wrote.
Ideology 2
a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture
b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture
c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program
In regards to using ideology to describe “The System” I accept definition A as one that is accurate but only to a degree.
However here we see Veronica Poe using definition B.
Actually, all three of these definitions apply. Definition c certainly applies. The fourth way ideology is a blueprint for hierarchical social organization. There are “men number 4″ and then there are those above them who have authority. Don’t kid yourself that this point is peripheral. It’s central.
You write: “Ideological statements only make sense in the context of the community of others making similar value judgments.” This is a little slight of hand. It is a fact that the “work language” and the “system” exist separately from any specific community. It is not a proven accepted fact that “The System” fits this definition.
Sure it is true that there is this language that comes out of the legacy of G and O and that is used by different groups. It varies from group to group. There are people here who’ve been in several groups who can vouch for the point. I’ll bet people from different groups can argue until the cows come home what constitutes “The System” and what doesn’t.
You write: To base a whole arguement on an unproven fact indicates a lack of basic logical reasoning.First you need to prove or in the least make a reasonable argument that “The System” is an idealogy as described in B.
I state my personal opinion that the fourth way so-called is an ideology covered by all three of the definitions, especially the sociopolitical one. It is not an irrational opinion but rather distilled from considerable reflection and bitter experience. I admit the offense of stating my value judgment in the guise of a statement of fact. May I also inquire about the emotional impact of encountering a value judgment, concerning a subject which you and I value differently, in the guise of a statement of fact? When I encounter ideological statements about “the work” or “the system,” I have an impulse to raise the consciousness, so to speak, about the fact that they are dealing in the currency of value judgments….
You state, The use of the language by The Fellowship of Friends may be faulty. This does not prove the ideas themselves are incorrect. Calling the work language an ideology and than assuming it is incorrect because you define it as an ideology is circular reasoning.
Ideologies by their very nature condition what people observe. Consider the term “verification.” It’s usually considered part of the “work language” so called. It is used to identify a cognitive process that goes on with “system concepts.” You can “verify” or not, but you cannot verify that some particular system concept is false. Why not? because by definition “the system” is sacred and not subject to being disconfirmed. So as an exponent or adherent of “the system,” your mind is going to be saddled with all this stuff that your experience is not allowed to jettison, because it’s not subject to disconfirmation. You either have verified it, or you have not yet verified it. How could it not affect what you observe?
You write: The author avoids the one significant item which to me was central in my post. This is self remembering. The system exists only in relation to self remembering. Individual consciousness is what defines the correctness or incorrectness of the system. If self remembering itself is not possible than the system which uses this as a core idea is meaningless.
Let me ask you, sincerely, are you talking about “the practice of ‘divided attention’”? The thing with the arrows in the Ouspensky writing? If you are, we can talk about that.
You write: Addressing ideas like body type, features, alchemy and level of being independently from self remembering indicates the author has no idea what the actual subject is.
The subject I was writing about was how the “work ideas” so-called belong to a category of systems of ideas and blueprints for social and political organization that I call “ideology.” You were not writing about that subject; I was.
You write: Also while type, alchemy and features are important in the Fellowship they are only secondary in terms of the system. If as in the context I was using them they help communication then they are a useful tool. The larger concept I was addressing is thaT there can be no reconciliation between those to whom self remembering is real and those to whom it is not.
I take your point to be that the utility of “self remembering” is not open to discussion. If you don’t want to talk about it, that’s ok by me. I do not need to have you adopt my values and we are allowed to disagree.
VeronicaPoe
You contribute an essential, unique, educative disciplined energy to this blog. Your steady practical effort is hugely appreciated by me. My hat off to you.
I think it is a must see and gets the grey cells really working.
Gurdjieff used to say he was teaching Esoteric Christianity, and that this teaching is older than the Christianity we know. It has existed long before. He also talks about the map of presanded Egypt he had found. There are many way to interpret that, but one way to look at it, is that it is the sand in our eyes. That film removes quite a bit of that sand. Almost unbelievable but so believable. I liked the whole film, although I am usually not a fan of conspiracy theories.
The end is very good. It talks about the need to develop a sense of connectedness. A connection to nature and to other humans. All of us in this blog and in the Greater Fellowship are connected in an odd way. I agree with Joel (6/1), yes I am also AG. We all played funny games with each other at different times.
Fear is the wrong guide if we want to create a true Greater Fellowship.
Love and acceptance should be our way and I am ready to be naive about it.
What do we have to fear??
666 Martin from Berllin.
You dont have anything to fear. However read back through some of the posts from current members who do. Perhaps we can think of it in relation to the film you refer to. There are forces in the larger world which are definitely insidious why should it be any different in the small world of the blogs. Any organism has these different aspects within it. For example if you got cancer would you just say hi welcome cancer cells and hope that they didnt spread? In some situations fear is the absolutely correct emotion. I like the man in question but it doesnt prevent me from seeing that he is a shark wearing a dolphin skin and making clicking sounds.
Personally Im not afraid but some of my friends have something more to lose. Some might argue that its only illusions they have to lose and that they will allways survive but Its not my place to throw them into that situation. Some of them have to put food on the table for their kids.
He is a very cute scorpion though.
lty. Cy. und machs gut.
An aquaintance from my distant past and I were chatting. I asked him why it was that even though his heroin habit had cost him everything, even his son had been robbed and killed on Father`s Day while trying to find him on Shooters`Alley for the family dinner, that he was still wanting to pursue the heroin. His answer was simple and to the point. `When I find something better, I`ll switch.`
It didn`t matter that he had suffered much and was well aware that the promise was a lie. It has now become a deep understanding for me that life is mostly a building of addictions and a dealing with whether it is fed or not. The subject of the addiction doesn`t matter. It can simply be a thought, feeling, sensation, or belief. Imo it is a matter of choosing something better to distract myself from the pain or suffering of the previous `boss`. The heroin addict was right. His trouble was that he thought it had to be chemical.
In the same way, we inners and outers often think that we need to find `another school` and this is what holds many back from leaving for so many years.
On another scale but within the same framework, personally I just didn`t know what I wanted. Even now I am terrible at updating my grocery list, but at least I now am fully aware that something has got to change. How to I know? Anytime that I observe my state descending. Now where did I hear the expression. `My state is what counts`, oh so many years ago? Was it my mom or was it my center director?
And now we are One, now, now. All Is Well. Joy to All !
Oh yes I forgot!
when I was deeply existentialy concerned about the way things were being run in the pseudo school, one of the people I approached for help in understanding in order to make my decision to leave was good ole Abe.
His assistance consisted of the statement “too weird or not too weird.”
My ultimate conclusion was, too weird and too far away from anything resembling compassion and conscience or any other by products of consciousness.
What one might call a lack of C influence.
Lack of compassion conscience and consciousness. Cy.
Thanks, Dick, for the gentle slap across the face in response to my Pollyanna-ish defence of AG. I needed that!
It’s clear that after all these years in the Fellowship, I have a very well-developed instinct to not ‘rock the boat.’ The waters definitely started getting choppy when the AG debate began.
Innernaut, I read the Way of Illness about twelve years ago and cannot remember the author’s who I know have at least another great book. Carol D or Davis C, suggested it to me many years ago and I would guess that she still knows who these two, I think, german authors, are. If you cannot get hold of her and really want me to, I might be able to contact her. Cheers. My e-mail is ludoteka at succeed.net.
Veronicapoe “Ideologies by their very nature condition what people observe.”
I’m finding this discussion fascinating. Also the AG conversation and some of the GF discussions. I think there is a new awareness of our connectedness evolving in humans at this time. And this awareness is itself an organizing principle. We are becoming aware that we don’t think/feel/etc alone – in a box, that we -with others- are in that an entity, alive. It matters what others think/feel/observe/etc. Consensus is organic. Community is Aquarian.
Systems like 4th way evolve because it is held in the beings of people. Languages evolve – it is a meme. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme). The system was carried in top down organizations of people – there was a leader and then others. Here and GF it is carried by an evolving changing community. We may miss chances to be the best possible community but that is to be accepted because the community is self organizing with consciousness and conscience – facilitated by the internet. The whole issue of the internet as opening new pathways between people is part of the meme. We evolve together.
I don’t think this negates our own spiritual pathways, or efforts, or whatever. It is the next step. The physical brain reflects this as new evolutions are added to the old, the old may shrink in proportion to the whole, but it is not discarded.
_____
Please excuse me if this makes no sense. It was difficult for me to write in words because right now, for me, it is in the realm of emotional thinking and I can’t quite catch it. I didn’t approach it logically also. I am so glad you are all here!
You can join Graduate’s network and “share” with AG.
It has far less to do with fear than common sense. To repeat, AG said to William “you are right to ban me”. Why don’t you email him and tell him he’s wrong smart ass.
What is it about AG’s own words that you are having difficulty understanding?
“Fear kept us in the FOF and now we use fear to keep others out of the Greater Fellowship.”
Horseshit. Not “others”, just the present litigious lawyer for the FOF.
Most people who are for banning AG said that with a change of position (either leaving the FOF or no longer counsel for the FOF) they would all be quite willing to send an invitation, including myself.
Are you just skipping around the posts or are you informing yourself of the whole breadth of the conversation?
I love reading your stuff. I really admire you for overcoming the stuff you have had to deal with. Gradguates pissed me off big time with that last post to you.
You wrote: “Ideology in and of itself is not proof of whether a system of concepts is correct. To make this illogical jump is to say that any systematic body of concepts that is any philosophy that has ever existed must of itself be false.”
Yes! That is what I think, and as each letter hits this page it immediately becomes false. This is my opinion. Everything Shakespear wrote is false. Everything Walt Whitman wrote is false. Everything Jesus said is false.
It has everthing to do with “Self-remembering”. with being “Awake” and does not have to do with what works for others and what doesn’t work for others. It is wonderful to think about stuff. I think about all kinds of stuff. Different theories on different scales, different realms, dimensions, states and shit like that. It’s a hoot. Politics, economics, botany, chemistry, physics, sex, work, whether if I pick this booger and eat it and someone sees me will I be embarassed (well that hasn’t come up for a while).
IMO if I am “seeing” something in the world (including myself) I have purchased what someone had previously put on the market. Simple as that.
Am I “seeing” a “martial” or a “gemini”? Am I “seeing” an introvert or an endomorph? Am I “seeing” a demon or a nuersosis? Is one conceptual model better, more complete, than another? Sure, probably, I don’t know.
I said before, IMO we are always going to interpret our experience through a conceptual framework. We best make it as big as possible.
IMO for the majority of those involved in this little arena here the 4th way system is a hundred wet blankets smothering their selves.
I am retarded. I am an idiot. I am nothing. If I am lucky I will continue to move in that direction.
74 Martin from Berlin.
I agree we are greater than that and part of greatness is to know what to avoid.
People do get bitten by sharks so dont let them in your swimming pool!
How much time have you spent around this man?
Do you know him on a personal level?
But its not about the man its about his role in the fof.
He is responsible for helping to keep Butman supplied with meat, in this case pork sausages attached to shocked aspirants to something higher, by helping him to remain “above the law.”
When he stops this I will personally invite him in and embrace him like a long lost brother! until then I will treat him as a criminal.
” a mensch is just a mensh da da da da da da.”
Its commendable that you are so open and forgiving, perhaps thats because on a personal level you dont have anything to forgive, but extend your person to the others who have suffered at his hands, study him.
You are a loving considerate person, consider those who will jump out of the swimming pool if he jumps in, and why.
To make it personal consider this scenario.
You have a son who you love very deeply, he is seduced by butman because butman is kept in operation by this shark. Now tell me honestlly are you still so forgiving when your son is trying to deal with this?
Honestly?
If you really would feel exactly the same way and forgive him without his remorse of conscience and alteration of behaviour accordingly then you are bigger hearted than I am.
By the way this actually happened to a dear and a very gentle friend of mine so its not just idle speculation!
I will forgive him when he no longer supports such things and not before, my love in this instance is very definitely conditional. ” I will cuddle you Hannibal Lector but only when you stop skinning people.”
Love to you my very loving, naive and well wishing friend. Cy.
Hi Bruce and Cyclops,
ok it was just a try to see if anybody was in for forgiveness, I guess not :-)
So cool down, sounds like you guys have made up your mind.
I must admit I never had a negative experience with AG and the hole show is so long ago for me and has nothing to do with my current live that I can not relate to all the excitement of the virtual appearance of AG. To me it feels we make him bigger than he is. Does he really have such power?
Not in my world. But what do I know.
So I leave you two warriors back on your battleground.
As we discussed on the GF, Forgiveness is indeed a biggie, and I agree.
We’re talking about practical application of common sense here. As long as he is legal counsel to the FOF, it is his job to do his nefarious stuff. I’m sure that AG, out of that context, probably has a whole other side. And I hope that is the part that will eventually ascend. I really do wish him well, and I can’t imagine that he is not struggling with his demons. But right now things are the way they are and I think one must act with some semblance of common sense.
“If I ever opened a trampoline store, I don’t think I’d call it Trampo-Land, because you might think it was a store for tramps, which is not the impression we are trying to convey with our store. One the other hand, we would not prohibit tramps from browsing, or testing the trampolines, unless a tramp’s gyrations seemed to be getting out of control.”
Jack Handey, playing devil’s advocate. (at least for me)
Friends, here are some thoughts from the days of the French Revolution that may be relevant to our discussion! I extracted them from an alternative new source, http://www.counterpunch.org, their Bastille Day Edition, July 14-15, 2007:
“The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!”
–Camille Desmoulins
“One must frighten those who govern; one must never frighten the people.”
It was asked earlier about music selections to transition from the fof. I have one:
AC/DC Back in Black on continuous loop for about 6 mos. until the emotional pussification begins to crack and the AG soap opera in your head shuts off.
(“Hell’s Bells” and “Giving the Dog a Bone” are two of my favorites)
Bullshit, bullshit meter. You’re missing the bus. It’s about one person, the current legal counsel for the FOF, no one else. It’s a practical matter. There are many current FOF members in the GF. Don’t get your panties in a twist. Unless you want to
More than 57,000 hits was that one of them? And, who are the 57,000. I know one is Bruce and one is Yesri Baba. 300 over at GF, approximately 1,500 at FOF. 57,000 the “What the F am I doing here T-shirt @12.00 ea. x(-) the actual total is a whopping amount.
BS Meter (89) – your guess is incorrect. GF is not about competition in size or greatness with FOF.
GF was originally started (in case you forgot) not with intent to compete or outgrow FOF or even embrace all and everyone.
It was started as a place for FRIENDS in and out of FOF to connect. Meaning, friends invite friends. So in a way, it is not a wide open door for whoever wants to come in. It’s not a PUBLIC network and will not be.
If AG doesn’t even admit who invited him and has not a single friend listed – what business he has on GF? He was already cheating by not showing who invited him.
He got in with an agenda, and it is probably not to connect with old friends.
Get it?
if AG wanted to get in, he could have arranged to do this in any number of ways. there are current and former students on the site. Lot of invitations are floating around–what is the freakin big deal–dont be so small minded. Take an example of JoelF.
So we don’t have to reinvent the wheel for you, I suggest you go back to the beginning of this particular discussion both here and on the GF and familiarize yourself with the whole continuum of what has been discussed. You’re jumping in here at this point, and to address your points, some of which are valid considerations, we would have to re-do the past several days of discussion.
Otherwise, your points have already been addressed, and I’m certainly not going backwards for you.
If you wish to simply rant on with your opinion, go to it.
BS Meter, you are not getting it. It’s not what somebody wants, it’s more if he is wanted there. He is obviously NOT wanted and it was clearly expressed by majority.
Of course he can break in some other way, just like a thief still can break in a locked house.
What’s your point, anyway.
One way to approach the Goldman issue is to calmly and realistically examine what he could potentially accomplish litigiously.
Is anyone doing anything illegal on this blog or on the Greater Fellowship forum? In example, who would he attempt to sue? For what? How?
If someone says that Robert Burton manipulated him sexually, would the Fellowship lawyer attempt to take that person to task? Too dangerous with Robert’s reputation!
Would he attempt to take an enormous group to court for not agreeing with Robert? Shut the boards down? Accuse 500 people of slander? Give them all million dollar settlements to be quiet?
Although it’s difficult to see a legitimate legal angle with which he’d potentially wreak havoc, it’s definitely naïve to perceive him as an innocent. The letters that he posted here and the e-mails that were reprinted by “xena” (593) (4), were cleverly and carefully composed and contained legal references and negativity about this discussion.
One must face that there is no way the fellowship is pleased with the communication here or on the GF. Would any disagree that the fellowship administration would prefer it if this did not exist since, from their point of view, subordinate enemies are here & on the GF? They’re getting some really bad PR and, without a doubt, would desire that it stop.
One of the 48 Laws of Power is:
Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.
Abraham is following this law by attempting to join a group that does not have his best interests at hand. Should the GF adhere to that law by allowing him in?
Unless Abraham Goldman is beginning his personal process of leaving the fellowship, (which, of course, is a distinct possibility) what motive would he have in breaking school rules, which are clearly still in place, to cavort happily with moon food?
Welcome him in! Despite the fact that I’m a member of the moon food group, I know I’m invincible against any further fellowship shenanigans.
He don’t scare me none. He done don’t have no legal leg to be standin’ on and he done be knowin’ dat.
For me, it’s not so much what or how Abraham G. (is), rather what the subject of his ’symbol’ makes ‘us’, when considering his profile ‘up against’ our own. Do you really need a profile to be yourself; what good does such comparisons really perform in the moment? Do they (the momentary outcome of the comparison) bring us some sort of ‘relief’, a sort of narcissistic ‘I told you so’ to the other self within us? These are questions I ask myself primarily and try to share with the blog.
__________________
Hello ~ (34) My2bits
You wrote ~
“I consider myself a good friend of Abraham, and I respect him and his abilities as a lawyer. As to the parties he chooses to defend, well, that is another matter.”
__________________
To me, actually, “that is another matter” is a buffer (small world avoidance of larger world of self); it is a disclaimer and a warranty, similar to ‘A Limited Lifetime Warranty’…
My2bits, step back a moment, take a bigger look at what propels humanity on this planet ~ division;
in the sense of conscious conscience, how is it possible to convince oneself to love only half a person and not the other half? This is a huge area of endeavor; one I would ask you to please re-consider…
To me, respect comes from a totality (the totality of your being as it is now, which, hopefully radiates such attention towards others as itself senses it ‘deserves’,
a sense that you have spent enough time with another being to have ’seen it all’, the toilet and the antique silverware within the place-setting of another.
I can admire a person as an impression belonging to a particular ‘force’, like ‘The law of the land’, yet, this does not mean I know the person or even the profession;
we’re often attracted the most to that which we cannot mechanically reconcile within ourselves or upon others, i.e., the power of opposites attracting and affirmations.
Many people (when only perceived by Essence) are reflections of their ‘craft’, their ‘profession’, which, to me, means nothing when looking at the man or woman who is most often times simply ‘possessed’ by the demon called Career or ‘I can’t now, this is really important.’
What men and woman do in private, in-between the lines of fire and water, this begins to unfold a larger ’scale & relativity’;
what they adamantly support while being seen, in order to cover up and self-justify the exact contradiction showing itself in their own ‘personal’-'I don’t bring my job home’ (or my home to my job; like certain spiritual egos we know of) selves, this is also to be looked at ~
By reading your post I can see that you do not know Abraham G. as a man, only as a phenomenon of his profession, a profession that mesmerizes millions and thus costs millions to perform and keep up its ‘aura’.
Lawyers (there are some exceptions, then, they’re not lawyers ‘really’) function on the planet as a sort of ‘daddy’ or ‘mommy’ figure, coupled with the mechanical, self-conscience numbing talents of the King of Hearts and The King of Clubs:
for the most part, to me, lawyers have risen by the one aspect that they themselves iconoclastically emit ‘FEAR’…
Fear of self vision,
Fear of getting into the dirt of one’s contradictions (alone),
Fear of telling the truth of one’s real-time feelings,
Fear of crying in front of another for oneself, not in order to get them closer to you,
Fear of going within, with nothing other than the fact that there’s something to do with oneself that this world simply does not support or see as genuine or worthy of pause.
Fear of telling a person how you truly see or feel; regardless of their reputation with those who you ‘wished’ loved you.
Fear of living without ‘wish’, ‘need of what was’, need of what should be’, ‘need of what could or would have been’ only ‘if’…
If, but, well, so what, I and they, you did that, that did you; all chains and briefcases with hand-cuffs,
So much fear, yet this is ‘natural’ when put alongside of ’so much desire for physical things that are inherently embedded with the fact that they will end’;
I would say, no, to this ‘normality’, because due to what I have experienced in my life, it has shown me that this earth and our third dimensional ‘house-holdering’ is a large trap,
even those who polish the trap are trapped with their buff rags and ‘concern for the next generation’ of polishers and ‘chewing one’s legs off to escape’ players.
Whatever a man or woman “chooses to defend” (particularly when it is plainly criminal towards both the innocence, the naiveté and utter ‘at times’ hypnotized child within) is exactly what they, the defenders, ‘within themselves’ have yet to win for themselves…
Lawyers are great at winning for others; at making one’s conscience seem larger than it really is, making conscience look like a phenomenon supported by the American Constitution itself; though it is not,
for a group of men or woman will never be able to predict your conscious direction while taking in ‘all this hunger for form and its destruction’ as something outside one’s self, something that is not as real as your present self perceiving it as ‘what it becomes’ once you approach it with its back turned, not what it usually does, i.e., using our hands to type on the computer’s keyboard or push another’s buttons simply for the sake of needing one’s own buttons pushed in order to gain a sense that ‘I am me so long as They say I am me because I cannot be them.’
Yes, Lawyers are great at winning, from the King of Club or negative half of the King cards side of one’s ‘beef (argument) with another’, yet,
something the media subconsciously chooses to leave out of the daily news is that with every third dimensional ‘win’ there is a third dimensional ‘loss’ (which is also a ‘win’ for painbody, both painbody’s get the same amount of food from the same court case; the only difference in the polarity of the food itself, in a automatic-triad that is:
and to me, any ‘gain’ that is in of itself only a gain through the sacrifice of a ‘loss’ (without objectivity, oftentimes only winning by better lawyers or paid off witnesses, ’settling out of court’ so as to not make either sides compromises ‘public’) means nothing on the level of the individual themselves, for they have once again been ‘doped’ into believing that conscience needs another target than that one it’s scope is mounted to…
Conscience was developed to ‘holy reconcile’ our inner contradictions, our mysterious womb-condition of being within physical bodies that automatically, without our conscious will, do things, say things, that we ourselves would never permit having had happen had we been present to them prior to their automatically leaving through our ‘actions’, ‘words’, or ‘emotions’.
For me, your post is yet another example of what one has performed upon Robert Burton himself (mirroring upon the form of The Fellowship of Friends the very image that one initially joined to work through and let go of as a contradiction transformed;
one, that the FoF now supports as an ongoing acceptance of a ‘religion of lies and ‘holy’ contradictions’;
all in the name of “My students need this friction to awaken.” or that
‘I like him as a teacher of the fourth way ideas’ (long ago)
or that
‘he has supplied an environment for me to have meaningful friendships (while not needing to be his friend and visa versa).
We grow upwards, not ‘up’, there is no end to this spiritual stepping; what Robert Burton is, ‘is’ what Abraham G. is, unfinished impressions, as we all are…
For me, ‘My2bits’, true respect for another is a sense that they themselves will never end and whatever happens down here, stays down here; all that they prescribe to earthly wonder, money, power, etc., stays down here…
And I trust, within this ‘respect’ that they will get something, whatever it is that ‘they need’ or ‘think they need’… after that self-evident occurrence, it’s an open ended, gigantic mystery;
for religion blinds us, from seeing one another as phenomenons and rather, places us within certain frameworks of a divine plan, such as Robert Burton’s “next lifetime, divine coma” non-sense…
Yet, something needs the ‘tomorrow’; yet it’s not ‘you now’ is it?
If cancer did visit me; actually I would say ‘yes’ take this; saying ‘no’ only makes it’s teeth grow.
I would welcome it because I know for certain that this body and all it’s Zeitgeist drama is not what I am about, nor is it reflective of my true inner state and aims.
Beautiful (and sometimes not so beautiful), conscious lovers; their bodies have fallen considerably ill and died: to some, this would seem contradictory, a ’sign’ of some (hidden) weakness (more heaven and hell karma-dope)…
_________________________
Hello ~ (50) Elena
You wrote ~
“I was much surprised at a formal dinner with Girard at the galleria when our friend who is so soft, good willing and kind reacted to my questioning of Robert with a powerfull and angry: “The sequence works,” he would have hit me if he could have and the kind, soft and goodwilling personality dissolved into a ferocious and determined man faced with an enemy.”
_________________
Yes; and within this “surprise” state is another beautiful ’seed’ for a real conscious school to take place within all of us when such revelations happen upon us;
for that ’surprise’ can be the beginning of an awesome ‘pointer’ as to what ‘objective knowledge & phrases’ play affirmative roles ‘for’,
to have us achieve the depth of an inner state within ourselves, to have the sort of patience with one another, that not even the promise of life or death can alter or sway towards something other than doing our conscious ‘best’ as we are here, now:
it also shows the ‘deed’ of Robert Burton’s teaching, that such a contradictory, controversial event would ’seem’ ‘important’ or worthy of conscious participation is truly ‘a pointer’ that the Fellowship’s throne is indeed it’s toilet too.
A real school has no excuses: Robert Burton has even taken the subject of one’s entire lifetime, in this now, and turned it into a ‘not enough’, ‘not now’, ‘later’, affair…
He has turned even the future of a student’s progress into an excuse, for whatever the future will bring, it is still not within the lifetime ‘he’ ‘prescribes’…
thus, he ‘excuses’ them, while simultaneously persecuting them for the very acts and attitudes he himself uses to punish the likewise aspects perceived as a threat to his ‘threat’…
___________
Thank you for your post ~
Welcome back Elena…
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Hello (14) Graduates
You wrote ~
“C influence has left the school and is working with those of us working against the spiritual criminal Burton and his enabling cult followers.
The good will of conscious influences has left the Fellowship of Friends and now works with the graduates of that now dead organization.
One of the central excuses for this action (by “the graduates”) was that people still in the Fellowship of Friends would not feel comfortable in the Greater Fellowship if one of the central figures of the Fellowship was visibly inside the sanctuary. Look at the insanity of such an excuse. If you are a member of an organization (including the GF?) where the central figures so terrify that you are fearful to be seen by them at a location where you might feel safe then you are obviously trapped in psychotic cult. Get out.
_____________________________
Graduates,
On the surface, it’s far too easy a ‘trap’ to get caught up in the obvious veneer of your raw-ness … so, I won’t even go there.
Though, from my heart, I ask you to please be honest with at least yourself and when you go from saying (in effect) ‘The gods are working now with the GF website participants, instead of the FoF’; to then, a few weeks later, state, concerning the same ‘holy chosen’, that ~
“Look at the insanity of such an excuse.”
(Excuses, insanities?… from the gods? or you?)
This is what happens when we take sides, without staying in the middle, within some now-anchor; such things occur and show us that there is a certain ‘opportunist’ within all of us, that buffers (ignores) what it just said less than a week ago and goes with (using the same passion) the exact opposite or what it ‘passionately’ saw then as ‘the sheet’…
At least admit your change of mind… this would serve us all and especially you.
If you did acknowledge the ‘change of sides’, I did not see it and apologize for the possible ‘off the target’ aim;
yet, to me, far from the objective denying force of being retarded or ‘below average’, there is a much greater area of darkness that gets within us, that we may need to be watchful for on this path, that is ~
when we ‘pretend’ to be advocates of both ‘the professional baseball pitcher’ and ‘the hand grenade factory’ he owns; calling it ‘cool’.
_____________________________
Hello (82) ~ Martin from Berlin
You wrote ~
“Hi Bruce and Cyclops,
ok it was just a try to see if anybody was in for forgiveness, I guess not :-)
So cool down, sounds like you guys have made up your mind.
I must admit I never had a negative experience with AG and the hole show is so long ago for me and has nothing to do with my current live that I can not relate to all the excitement of the virtual appearance of AG. To me it feels we make him bigger than he is. Does he really have such power?
Not in my world. But what do I know.
So I leave you two warriors back on your battleground.”
_____________________________
Hello Martin (Martin C.?)
If it is (Martin C.) then I know you pretty well, my friend, we are all, at some points on the path addicted to such logic as what you use in the above post: I have certainly been there myself.
You wrote ~
“…it was just a try to see if anybody was in for forgiveness, I guess not.” (then you smiled about it (?))
Feeling ’smug’ won’t keep you growing in life, nor on this blog site; I ’should’ know and I sense I do.
You wrote that line with a sort of ’soft tongue in cheek’ suggesting that you have ‘forgiven’, yet,
how is it that you have ‘forgiven’ a man or being, who in your next sentence you state ~ “I must admit I never had a negative experience with AG and the hole show is so long ago for me and has nothing to do with my current live…” (?)
Then, after ’seeming’ to be sure of what you ask of Bruce and Cyclops to do from their truer inner being (as you have hinted you can do, albeit with having no prior ‘whole experience with AG on both sides of your lower centers-reflectors) you write ~
“But what do I know.”
Enough to advise others of what you yourself cannot actualize?
Hummm… I wonder where that kind of ‘knowing’ comes from?
Ah… Martin, what’s going on here?
Do you know that during the American Civil War there were ‘certain families’ that would picnic 100 yards away from the actual battles taking place, watching it, like TV, oftentimes betting on which side would fall?
If there is such a thing as reincarnation or spirit possession, I would advice you to get yourself to a witch doctor and fast; there’s some voodoo juju going on in their, possibly without our permission.
And don’t let the ‘fact’ that you are or are not ‘Martin C.’ stop this sharing we’re experiencing; I sense the shoe still fits, no matter who you are.
_____________________________
Hello ~ (26) Vera.mente
You wrote ~
“Somehow admitting AG to the GF feels more like being in the fof again!
There is no perfection.”
___________________
I can roll with the last line; although, as far as I know, admitting AG to the GF would not have the prerequisites that the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burton prescribes upon those playing “The Return of the Prodigal Son”-affirmative-role, i.e.,
Bend over, take this, figuratively and physically; Oh! while I am back here I’ll take that wallet, you won’t be needing it where you’re going and BTW, welcome back from having been objectively excommunicated to HELL; sorry, I didn’t tell you about the rain-checks, that’s in our official church canon BTW, I filled it’s barrel up with concrete a long time ago so that no one, just loitering around the ‘Town Hall’ could go shooting any balls I have not lifted and tested as worthy of ‘creating a hole in my theories’ myself.
Rosy Bruises
_________________________________
Hello (20) ~ Veronicapoe
What you wrote about the ‘work-language’ is only applicable to a School of Relative Awakening; in a real school, as is ‘evident’ in real-life even, deeds show the worth of the words, not the words:
in the Fellowship of Friends, it’s the worth of the words, the worth of possibilities and the coffee table talk of struggle, that’s most revered, not the deeds, nor the actual application of what the fourth way knowledge implies;
this returns one back to Robert Burton’s first lie concerning his celibacy:
so, it’s better for Robert Burton to tell the ‘truth’ about dead people and their ‘wishes’ than to have they themselves (as their own ‘deed’ or ‘proof’) to have to answer to concerning his own hypocritical and profoundly false spiritual intentions, which do not align at all to even one of the wiseacred 44 he’s chosen.
The work language was and will (in spirit) always be secondary to (its deeds) that occur and move within us when one is using it, not being used by it to become segregated and special.
___________________
Hello (586/14) Cyclops ~
Spasiba Tovaritch to you too!
So… I did it; I watched the whole thing…
I will write to you soon; just wanted you to know that I cozy-ied up to it just today: still processing.
I like the idea that Christ never existed; yet that won’t keep Robert Burton from saying, sooner, than later,
“Oh, I meant to say that I am the next whoever it was that got actually crucified and died for your sins. Yeah, that’s it; I am whoever it is that you don’t find out was actually not who I think I am to you. Asaf dear, do you have anything to add to that? A. ~ Yes, Robert. R. ~ That’s nice dear; shall we have another quote toke?”
______________________
18 years ago in the US I had a big problem with some very bad people.
And nobody in the Fellowship of Friends has ever given me so much real help as Abraham Goldman.
He helped me completely for free.
I never thanked him properly for that, so hereby I say to him:
“Thank you, Abraham, you really helped me a lot in those difficult and dark moments. When I was threatened by evil force and had to stay up all-night with a shotgun in my hands to defend the home and the people I was living with. Thank you for writing a letter an for going to the sheriff to explain my situation.”
This was so wonderful I reposted it. I should apologise for being so petty but I do get a kick out of Gregory Goodwin. Thank you Gregory Goodwin for such a great reaction. Thank you also for revealing my true nature to these blog posters and readers. I thought I was fooling all these great intelligent members and former members of the Fellowship of Friends. Now I no longer have to pretend I’m anything but a retarded fool. I may even use that as a new name it has a certain ring. Former student is a bit generic. Retarded fool is certainly easier to live up to than something like Revealer of Great Esoteric Truth, or even say Graduate which seems to imply you learned something. This does bring up a small question about you Greg, which happily your post does a better job of answering than I could ever do.
That is who are you? I mean in one way we know, right, your post tell’s a lot about you. It certainly reveals how shallow the veneerof “the work” and the “system” are and how mucn in imagination you are about what others think of you. Nobody probably noticed my slight, which was questioning your use of work language to say little of consequence, probably because it just isn’t that important. Neither what I write in general and whatever my opinion is on anything least of all you is of especial significance. You made sure 10 times as many readers paid attention and had to ask themselves the question which is “Is Gregory Goodwin communicating anything important” . How well did you answer that question?
Most members of the Greater Fellowship post their name and address and phone #. You Gregory Goodwin don’t , I do, Bruce does. Why don’t you? Are you worried about collection agencies or have you insulted enough people on the internet that you don’t feel safe letting people know who you are, where and a phone number? Say Greg why have a silly disagreement on the internet when we live so close. Any time you want to get together give me a call I live nearby in Berkeley lots of good coffee shops. Just check out my page on the Greater Fellowship.
on 14 Jul 2007 at 4:09 am33 Graduates
a former student 12
“…as it is possible to say nothing worth anything using the language ( try reading Graduates posts)…”
***************************
(I contemplated posting the following as a reply to this fool once before, but inner considered the reaction I’d receive for picking on the mentally handicapped)
Look carefully at the following words: Scott you are mildly retarded. This is not a gratuitous insult, I mean it literally.
You are not functioning with the same quality of equipment that the average person is endowed with. Do not imagine that you are capable of generating an exacting line of logic and therefore able to carry on a reasonable argument. You are insistently and aggressively out-spoken only because you are damaged by what is commonly known as narcissistic personality disorder, which commonly accompanies ‘borderline psychosis’. Quite likely you are also an alcohol and substance abuser (my guess, not my accusation) in a futile attempt to self-medicate in order to relieve the discomfort of your psychological symptoms. Pay to have an IQ test conducted on yourself and carefully consider the results in comparison with the average citizen and then shut the fuck up
Thanks Joel, very much appreciated.
Cyclops Thanks too.
Graduate: Can you read your post please again:
Unkind, superficial, not addressing the v-s, G.C. Ask the LCS about AG. Formatory and judgmental as they say in the fellowship of friends.
Maybe you are lashing out because you have some grief issues…very human reaction and helpful to look at. Books from Stephen Levine might be helpful so you can heal yourself and not be so hurtful on the white screen. Good luck
As a wise fiend states; when you think you are right, an alarm bell should go of.
Hurry in this case of getting Abe in, is complete unnecessary, in a year or two if AG leaves the fellow ship of friends or when he is supporting and talking to ex students why not. TIME
Love to all of you and happy to hear Sheik good to hear, you are kicking and alive. ENJOY.
“I believe that you are not sufficiently rigorous in your own reasoning; you often miss entirely, or misunderstand, the main theme of a discussion. You take ideas & treat them according to your own inconsistent home-grown & idiosyncratic understandings.”
And proud of it. However you imply that you are capable of a more disciplined line of reasoning and arguement but do not do so. What then is the point? Am I inconsistant is my approach homegrown thank you, some of the best things ever said to me. The sad thing is that you would say this as a bad thing.
“VeronicaPoe’s contributions are based on formal understandings, your contributions seem undisciplined and are peppered with a mish mash of contradictory ideas.”
There was nothing coherent in Veronica’s post and yes that is my opinion. mIt failed to address the underlying questions which are relevant to the blog . Is consciousness possible? Is the system objective knowledge. It questioned parts without connecting them to any larger whole. It is similiar to yours with a thin veneer of knowledge of form but little content.
“Your attempts to use the language and concept labels of formal logic, scientific method, etc. backfire on you by revealing a lack of formal education – at least in this area – which lack may explain your susceptibility & over commitment to the rigid conceptual paradigm that it is served up in the FOF.”
Now that pisses me off why would you abuse perfetly innocent words with good honest meanings to say nothing. My thinking is not at all similiar to the Fellowship you mark yourself a shallow fool to imply that wasn’t it you who just wrote.
“You take ideas & treat them according to your own inconsistent home-grown & idiosyncratic understandings” which is true? they are mutually exclusive. Do you know what that means? They cannot both be true if either is true the other must be false. This is classic logic. So one or the other is true which? Is this an example of your well educated thinking ability? You cannot even maintain an inner logic in your own critique of my reasoning”
“Incidentally, the effort to elevate system ideas beyond their intended scope undermines their real value. The Fourth Way ideas have a subtler & specialized utility – for the spiritual seeker only. You seem to manifest the egotistical need to attribute the system of ideas – to which YOU attach YOUR identity – a much greater universality and significance than is actual.”
Here is a central issue. You challange my right to have an opinion, my way of presenting my opinion, and now the validity of my own spiritual understanding. In general this is a topic in which a certain respect for others helps as we all try or best what is your veiw? You make this because the unspoken assumption is that you know the truth? Well that’s falseor you would model a different affect than that of arrogant one who knows.
“Perhaps your Ego-Identity is discomforted by the notion that your life exists within a conceptual framework that – in the eyes of many – would brand you as a “weirdo” or an ignoramus -”
What is an Ego identity? Did you invent this? Is this your own new language of higher consciousness. Freud used the term Ego as one of a number of different parts. This is such juvinile crap if you disagree why not say so .”in the eyes of many” says who ? You? Now you move from Esoteric knower of great things to knowledge of the masses. There is actually a T.V. game in which you can win 10 million dollars for being able to guess the results of polls. You are missing a great opportunity. So did your post have any point at all other than to show your brillant cutting wit and great grasp of the language? I notice it was beneath you to address the question at hand. For those in the back rows the question is Self remebering, is it real, The system is it objective knowledge.
on 14 Jul 2007 at 8:47 pm
65 Veronicapoe
writes
VP wrote “The fourth way ideology is a blueprint for hierarchical social organization. There are “men number 4 and then there are those above them who have authority. Don’t kid yourself that this point is peripheral. It’s central.”
I disagree. The system as interpreted by the Fellowship of Friends to justify its criminal activities justifies a male dominated hierarchy not much different than the Mormons.
This is not the systems fault. The system is just a blueprint as has been said to higher ideas. A man #4 is not over, better than or in charge of man #1, #2, or #3 objectively. Try to separate the attitudes about what the system is from what the Fellowship has been teaching. Understand this I left the Fellowship for my own reasons, for my conscience. I put aside the system for a least 15 years and came back to it from a different perspective. I returned to school and studied a number of perspectives none caused me to disprove the system. If you have not allowed this much accept the possibility that time can bring a changed in perspective. You do not have to accept my truth just accept the possibility of other truths. It is very much a form of wrong thinking propagated in the Fellowship that there is one truth. Not only are their many they change both for ourselves and others. Even within one day we may have different truths.
“When I encounter ideological statements about “the work” or “the system,” I have an impulse to raise the consciousness, so to speak, about the fact that they are dealing in the currency of value judgments…”
after admitting you wrote about your opinion as if they were facts you do it again. These facts may be your truth now but was this always true? If not was there a process of changing your view, a change in attitudes. If so it does not make whatever your currant understanding is a fact just your opinion. And you are under no obligation to raise anyone’s consciousness in regards to the subject unless asked. Your welcome to do your best for me but I am a difficult student I demand proof and question openly.
“Ideologies by their very nature condition what people observe.”
You have again returned to the assumption that your calling something an ideology makes it so. You still call the system and ideology without any real proof.
There are two questions I was trying to connect to this one
“Let me ask you, sincerely, are you talking about “the practice of ‘divided attention’”? The thing with the arrows in the Ouspensky writing? If you are, we can talk about that. ”
Apparently you do have a difficulty because that is the subject. and you still have not addressed it. It is very simple If it is real to you in any way shape or form then it gives a value to the system. If not then certainly the system is just an ideology at least for you. The second question is connected to the first “is the system objective knowledge”?
Self remembering is real for me. The system works for me. This has little to do with the Fellowship or Robert Burton. I left the Fellowship 27 years ago and have found my own way for better or worse. If my “style” and “thinking” lack the discipline of Academics that’s fine. If it is idiosyncratic, that’s fine. You or anyone else can chose to agree or disagree. I am however not trying to take anyone’s money by giving seminars to those poor suckers who still have a need to try and buy enlightenment. I do not tell anyone to believe anything I say or write. My only contribution to the discussion is to be me. I care about whether anyone reads what I write, or what they might think of my writing but not to an overwhelming degree. I am involved in my own process and in general the blog is not a King of hearts affair. That’s OK I have no one telling how I should act or feel. The system is simply a tool.
You have attitudes, beliefs, opinions, grow up, even if you are 100% correct you neither can nor have the right to tell anyone else what is right for them. That is that Fellowship of Friends , Robert Burton, Saturn Dominance, I know what’s best for you attitude and it is offensive. It is offensive in Robert, it is offensive in his “inner circle” and it is offensive to any one else who might have a different opinion. Having a strong opinion, even believing I’m right is not a bad thing. When it reaches the degree of not allowing other opinions to exist it is very bad.
VP wrote “I take your point to be that the utility of “self remembering” is not open to discussion. If you don’t want to talk about it, that’s OK by me. I do not need to have you adopt my values and we are allowed to disagree.”
It is only partly my point. It is also what makes the system different than an ideology. This is an if question “if the system is objective knowledge” what then? Is there any test? Only self remembering. But here is the Key , again an if question “if self remembering is possible” then can you explain it to someone who cannot experience it? The answer is no. This is all that separates man #4 from man #1,#2 and #3. If you can make an effort and be more conscious right now. Then you are a man #4. This comes with no robe of authority, no pay and benefit package, no pension plan or any external effect at all. It is just what it is . The ability to change your own consciousness. You may be a “man #4 with adjective” such as young man #4, failed Man #4 , even a stupid retarded Man #4 but all it means is the ability to self remember. Self remembering is the ability to change. It is the means of change, the aim of change and a result of change.
I paid with my time and efforts for one thing from Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends. That was Self Remembering. I gained a lot lost a lot and got it back. Now I refuse to let anyone take away what I have. Usually I will not say anything about this . However this is the right time and place for honesty.
In post #79 Yesri baba wrote
#56 A former student
now a proudly retarded fool
“I love reading your stuff. I really admire you for overcoming the stuff you have had to deal with. Graduates pissed me off big time with that last post to you.”
That post made my day. There is nothing I could possibly say that could in any way make him look worse than he did himself.
You wrote: “Ideology in and of itself is not proof of whether a system of concepts is correct. To make this illogical jump is to say that any systematic body of concepts that is any philosophy that has ever existed must of itself be false.”
Yes! That is what I think, and as each letter hits this page it immediately becomes false. This is my opinion. Everything Shakespeare wrote is false. Everything Walt Whitman wrote is false. Everything Jesus said is false.
It has everything to do with “Self-remembering”. with being “Awake” and does not have to do with what works for others and what doesn’t work for others.
I agree in principal. However I chose to disagree with Veronica Poe because its fun . She is worth the time and effort to provoke a bit. And then look what you get. Her response was meaningful, considerate, intelligent what I usually call useful. The topic covers many aspects of what the blog is about, The use of language, the system, the Fellowship, judgmental attitudes, opinion vs. fact, is self remembering possible?
in post # 82 Martin from Berlin
Hi Bruce and Cyclops,
OK it was just a try to see if anybody was in for forgiveness, I guess not :-)
So cool down, sounds like you guys have made up your mind.
It is fine to forgive Abe, fine to accept that it his role and also fine to not let his corrupt lying ass any where near me. on
in post # 84 Tim Campion
“Meanwhile, if Abraham wishes to speak for himself, this blog is wide open…”
and he is notably absent. This is a perfect forum for him in his role as “lord high protector”
He is no fool however as he knows that he could not avoid difficult questions and the Fellowship’s only viable strategy is to avoid any venue where certain questions are asked.
in post # 89 Bullshit Meter wrote
“About the Greater Fellowship, I guess if it cannot embrace a current student, it is as small as the Fellowship it pretends to exceed and encompass…”
I have coined an expression for just such a statement “dumber than a Rock” this is like H- 15568.
The Greater Fellowship is an online Network. The Fellowship of Friends has been marketed as the true conscious teaching of the Age with a conscious teacher. The GF has taken nothing and damaged no lifes. The FOF has a policy of institutionalized criminal behavior not limited to the teachers sexual manipulation of students and private use of funds but to a whole structure of criminals who engage in a conspiracy to defraud the FOF membership.
GOOD MORNING BLOG!!!! No, Toto, we’re not really in …but
lots of fire going on… tee hee
Hummm, I can’t get into the GF site this morning, not even my personal info… Ning says invalid request? Is this just my computer illliteracy coming to light, or is anyone else having this problem? E-mailed WH for help. Hummm, again, not fun…Hugs to all!
Veronicapoe: “The fourth way ideology is a blueprint for hierarchical social organization. There are “men number 4 and then there are those above them who have authority. Don’t kid yourself that this point is peripheral. It’s central.”
A former student: “I disagree. The system as interpreted by the Fellowship of Friends to justify its criminal activities justifies a male dominated hierarchy not much different than the Mormons. This is not the systems fault. The system is just a blueprint as has been said to higher ideas. A man #4 is not over, better than or in charge of man #1, #2, or #3 objectively.”
Veronicapoe responds: Surely the “work books” are permeated with ideas that imply, or even state baldly, a social power dynamic, to the following effect: “In schools, Men #4 have less power, ‘higher’ men, who run the schools, have more.” Do you dispute this?
Some simple questions:
1. if, as you contend, hierarchical social organization is not part of “the system,” how do you differentiate in a principled way between what you think “the system” is and what was taught in the Fellowship? I mean, if it is in a particular “work book,” it *is* a system idea?
2. Is the idea that “the system” comes from “higher mind” a system idea? Can it be confirmed as a true idea? Can it be disconfirmed as a false idea?
A former student: “… accept the possibility that time can bring a change[] in perspective.
Veronicapoe: I agree.
Veronicapoe: “When I encounter ideological statements about “the work” or “the system,” I have an impulse to raise the consciousness, so to speak, about the fact that they are dealing in the currency of value judgments…”
A former student: . . . [Y]ou are under no obligation to raise anyone’s consciousness in regards to the subject unless asked.
Veronicapoe: I am not under any obligation to raise anyone’s consciousness, but sometimes I undertake to try.
Veronicapoe: “Ideologies by their very nature condition what people observe.”
A former student: You have again returned to the assumption that your calling something an ideology makes it so. You still call the system and ideology without any real proof.
There are many things that would make for stimulating dialogue, but my undertaking to prove to you that “the system” is an ideology is not one of them. “The system” is a particular map or set of maps, a particular worldview or family of worldviews, a constellation of ideas, assumptions and practices about life, spiritual development, a set of values explicit and implicit about what’s worth doing, what’s worth knowing, what’s worth being. In my view that it is an ideology is a pretty elementary proposition.
You say, “self-remembering” makes it different and takes it out of the realm of an ideology. I respect that this is your opinion, but it is not a position that has any logical force. It is essentially a mystical argument, an announcement that this is incontrovertible and is not open to examination or debate. So, as I say, if you don’t want to have it examined, that’s fine. Maybe someone else wants to take up the banner.
I would agree with that if it’s changed to “a system” and the system in question is closer to it’s original form than the FOF is to the “system” ideas as G propounded them.
“a particular world view or family of world views, a constellation of ideas, assumptions and practices about life, spiritual development, a set of values explicit and implicit about what’s worth doing, what’s worth knowing, what’s worth being. In my view that it is an ideology is a pretty elementary proposition.”
I view it more as a series of “temporary” beliefs and assumptions that are utilized to facilitate the effective use of “a system”, any system ( we are assuming it’s in a unbastardized form). The need to maintain those modes of viewing everything after one has moved from “a system” is subjective. Some will abandon all, some will carry certain things onward, some will find the beliefs only valid in the limited space of systeming.
Any exposition of “what is” and “what is not” is intellectual masturbation if it goes beyond one’s own experiences and is assumed to extend to other’s experience.
Thank you, Uno, for your words about buffers and the nature of true respect. They are resonating and may shine some light on a whole ‘complex’ of buffers that have been allowing me to justify much of the ethical dissonance that exists in the Fellowship.
“This is not the systems fault. The system is just a blueprint as has been said to higher ideas. A man #4 is not over, better than or in charge of man #1, #2, or #3 objectively. Try to separate the attitudes about what the system is from what the Fellowship has been teaching.”
“The system is simply a tool.”
“Ideology in and of itself is not proof of whether a system of concepts is correct.
Dear Retarded Fool, (that was fun to write but you might want to get a better blog name) ;-)
The system cannot be completely isolated from ideology because the system is used by human beings. And the manner in which other human beings use that particular system count.
There is an acorn. Then it gets into some dirt. And it rains. It sprouts. Sunshine. Time. A trunk forms and branches and leaves. Lots of us leaves.
Some seeds (systems) grow true. Apple seeds, for example, grow highly varying plants. But even growing true each blossoming of the system/seed is unique. Seeds themselves evolve, adapting to the environments.
The leg bone is connected to the thigh bone…roots are connected to the leaves. Those connections are vital and real. Isolating a system from that which uses the system is OK but it is also vital to look at how the *connections tend to happen*.
Christianity, Islam, TEND to produce societies where women are not valued very well. Of course there are exceptions and women are valued in certain ways. But the overall TENDENCY is this. I think one of the first connections is for a system is an emotional link where value systems are established.
This is not, for me, an exercise in logic and, basically, I don’t understand your logic. Sorry. Maybe I’m not getting what you are saying and maybe I shouldn’t be posting here. Still, it is a measure of the seed/system to look at what it manifests. There will be anomalies (fof?) but the consideration of the TENDENCIES is valid.
I’d been thinking about your posts and questions, and some of the responses from some of my friends, and thought I would fill in a few blanks. This may end up being a bit long, but hopefully there’ll be something useful in it for you.
I’m not sure what part of all that you’ve been reading you consider to be ‘pseudo-philosphical spiritual nonsense psychobabble’, but many of the original reasons for all of us being in the fof were based on the ideas of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. They have a pedigree of sorts in the spiritual side of life on earth, and for people interested in that to have finally found a group interested in intensively experimenting with those ideas and practices was like winning the lottery.
One of the ideas that G&O spoke about was the concept of a ‘magnetic center’ that may form in a person. Think of it as a group of interests a person might have in spiritual matters (that may take many different forms). I am sure you know some like that, who always seem to be questioning things, trying to find meaning in existence, etc. I’m sure you also know many who are completely happy without giving any thought whatsoever to things like that. Without judging in the least either group, those who happen to be stuck with a searching and questioning nature are a little bit cursed in that simple existence doesn’t add up for them. So, they are driven to find something to help them answer (or maybe even first formulate) their questions. To give one example of what that can result in, in my case, I found myself having circumnavigated the globe by ship and train before I had even graduated from university (and it never really stopped after that.) It wasn’t anything I really can take credit for from one point of view — I was pretty much ‘driven’ to do it, driven to search.
Over the past 2000 years many of the people who struck out searching ended up in one form or another of monastic christianity. What G&O presented was a system for hopefully ‘awakening’ (borrowing a popularized idea from some eastern traditions) while immersed in the hurly burly of modern western life. No retiring to a cave, no need to enter a monastery and take vows of silence, etc. Many of us had read the books they had written, were attracted to the possibilities and the apparent cohesiveness of the ideas, and hoped to find a ’school’, which they insisted was indispensible. At some point we found the fof, and joined. For some, finding a group was enough — they uncritically jumped in and set to work; for others we kind of tested the waters first. I ended up staying on because of the people. To finally be around many people with similar interests, willing to devote themselves to what we thought was the task at hand, was a heady experience. That there were some odd aspects to it (exclusionary attitudes, money, etc. etc.) could be easily dismissed for most of us because 1) there was too much else going on, both internally and externally; 2) most of the oddities were less visible; 3) most of the oddities were far less extreme 20 years ago than they are now.
Now, however, the oddities are very visible, very extreme, yet many of us are still in the fof, and as I understand it you are wondering how on earth that can be. Well, psychologists and sociologists have over the past decades have had a field day delving into these questions, and their have been many posts here discussing that. One idea that may help you understand is that the system that G&O presented was based on the idea of ‘verification’, that you were not to simply accept anything on faith. It has gradually become clear that the fof is not that any longer, and is now very much like a religion. I and many others did not join a religion (at least we didn’t intend to). Many of us find ourselves like frogs in a kettle of water that has gradually gotten very hot, What is obvious to outsiders is now obvious to us.
So, why aren’t we all jumping out? Well, many have built their lives around the fof. Until recently it was a very rich experience up here in the hills. Much of our lives here revolved around the arts, in one form or another, and for a musician, painter or actor to be able to actively pursue their passion, well, that is a little like the searchers I mentioned earlier finally finding a group. Those of us who aren’t ‘artists’ (not many of us are really that great, but there are many who are competent) had a lot to do going to all the concerts, watching the plays, building the amphitheatre, building the vineyard, etc. All of this was done with the hopeful goal of ‘awakening’ — that it was possible to have a rich life yet still achieve a spiritual goal. There were lots of other reasons for all we did, mostly added on by an armageddon type of prophecy from the leader. As many took it seriously as didn’t just so you don’t think we’re all loopy. :)
Finally, a further reason why many hesitate to leave is because for a long time there has been a requirement of sorts (taken seriously by many) to not have contact with those who leave. This was not an invention of the fof — it was a requirement in Gurdjieff’s group. It had a purpose, and many (most?) of the current and former members now think it is no longer useful. This is yet another reason why the exodus is quite large now.
Well, I warned you it might be long. I hope that helped answer some of your questions.
Theophan the Recluse: Always have fuel within reach, and as soon as you notice that the fire of zeal is waning, take a log from your spiritual woodpile and renew the fire, and all will go well.
Arabian Nights: You are weary, and must want to refresh yourself.
Bernard of Clairvaux: Flowers must be frequently renewed; fresher blooms must always be added, because they soon lose their scent and beauty.
Buddha: The work never finishes; there is no end to this work.
Muhammad: Keep your belief fresh and renew it constantly.
New Testament, Romans 12:2 – Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Shabistari: Renew your belief at every moment as long as unbelief still dwells in your heart.
in post #114 Veronicapoe writes
“Surely the “work books” are permeated with ideas that imply, or even state baldly, a social power dynamic, to the following effect: “In schools, Men #4 have less power, ‘higher’ men, who run the schools, have more.” Do you dispute this?”
Yes I do, No where in any work book is anything like this said. I have all the major books in E-Book format and there is nothing of the kind. I read all these books and studied them 30 years ago. I reread them and debated then 5 years ago in depth. This is your interpretation of the system filtered through the experience of the Fellowship. This subject requires primary research go to the source. Reread “In Search of the Miraculous” and “The 4th Way”. I just looked up some material there is no reference to a social structure? You are imagining something. Reread the books try and get past the conditioning of the Fellowship and “think in a new way”. If on the other hand you think you can find a reference quote it.
In “In Search of the Miraculous” Peter Ouspensky quotes a talk by Gurdjieff on the division of man into 7 degree’s. This is in Chapter 4 beginning on page #78 to page 81. There is nothing about schools and a hierarchy.
Your question #1 brings us back to circular reasoning. The idea of a social hierarchy being taught as part of the system is in no “work book”. If as you imagine it is quote it. Both “ISOTM” and “TFW” are available as E-books at nominal charge. if you really can’t afford them I will send you a copy .Until you can quote a source stop using it as a proven fact and at least add “to my understanding”, “In my experience” or “it is my opinion”.
From “In Search of the Miraculous” Chapter 4 page 79
“The division of man into seven categories, or seven numbers, explains thousands of things which otherwise cannot be understood. This division gives the first conception of relativity as applied to man. Things may be one thing or another thing according to the kind of man from whose point of view, or in relation to whom, they are taken.
“In accordance with this, all the inner and all the outer manifestations of man, all that belongs to man, and all that is created by him, is also divided into seven categories………………………………….
“The same order of division into seven categories must be applied to everything relating to man. There is art number one, that is the art of man number one, imitative, copying art, or crudely primitive and sensuous art such as the dances and music of savage peoples. There is art number two, sentimental art; art number three, intellectual, invented art; and there must be art number four, number five, and so on”
What this is referring to is “right thinking” the application of the Law of Octaves to Humanity as a whole. It is not judgmental, does not endorse a hierarchy it is stating facts.
Question #2
Is the idea that “the system” comes from “higher mind” a system idea? Can it be confirmed as a true idea? Can it be disconfirmed as a false idea?
Yes, the idea of higher mind is part of the system.
From “The Fourth Way” Chapter 1 page 8
“BEFORE I BEGIN TO EXPLAIN TO YOU in a general way what this system is about, and to talk about our methods, I want particularly to impress on your minds that the most important ideas and principles of the system do not belong to me. This is chiefly what makes them valuable, because if they belonged to me they would be like all other theories invented by ordinary minds—they would give only a subjective view of things.”………………….
This is the opening of the book. The rest of the book is devoted to descriptions of his work with his teacher, Mr. Gurdjieff and his transmission of the knowledge now called the system.
In Chapter 1 on page 12 Ouspensky writes.
So, at the same time as self-observing, we try to be aware of ourselves by holding the sensation of ‘I am here’—nothing more. And this is the fact that all Western psychology, without the smallest exception, has missed. Although many people came very near to it, they did not recognize the importance of this fact and did not realize that the state of man as he is can be changed—that man can remember himself, if he tries for a long time.
The system only makes sense in terms of individual evolution, conscious or spiritual evolution. It is not a blueprint for a social hierarchy. There are a number of ways to prove or disprove the system. You can try self remembering. This is the key. Not anything I say, from your post’s it seems less and less likely you were ever a member of the Fellowship. Perhaps this is my limitation. I cannot imagine why anyone would be a member of The Fellowship of Friends if they did not experience and value self remembering. I especially can not imagine placing ones whole life in the hands of an egotistical sexual predator and corrupt administration if there did not seem to be something of value to be gained.
You have mentioned a number of times that I seem to avoid discussing self remembering. This is false. I bring it up in each post. You avoid it. What ever your position it is valid. Practical however trumps theory. What you think about self remembering does not mean much if it is only theory. Self remembering must be a real personal experience.
We seem to have a different perspective. Mine dates back almost 30 years to when I first read “In Search of the Miraculous” and “The 4th Way”. I read about self remembering and I did it. I also verified that I could not continue. This has not changed. This is the core of my relationship to the system.
If you don’t wish to continue the discussion that’s fine but you do a disservice to those you claim to want to help by contributing to their consciousness. If you are too lazy to make the effort to present what you believe to be a important truth if not “the truth” who will? I mean look at where you leave me after starting this noble attempt to uplift my knowledge and understanding you withdraw, maybe I was almost getting it. Why bother if it does not mean enough to see it through. This is an important topic. Much better than Fellowship bashing which while fun pales after a while. Even Gregory Goodwin baiting is of limited enjoyment but the topic of the system and consciousness is very important. and because it is connected to your own experience inexhaustible.
The system which you question states that it is a law that the lower cannot see the higher. I know Uncle Bob has bastardized this into one more justification for his perversions but it is true. One meaning is that the responsibility for communication and teaching falls on the higher. Another law in this regard is “time is a factor” it takes time for knowledge to travel from a higher to a lower. How could it be different. The Fellowship turns the system upside down and ass backwards to justify it play of crime. This is no more the systems fault than it was Christ’s fault for the inquisition. There is a good reason for discouraging Fellowship members from the study of The Fourth Way. The ideas of the system go against everything the Fellowship has come to represent. The single most important aspect is conscience and individual consciousness and will.
There is no place in the Fellowship for these aspects of individuality to develop.
In case you are confused here are my questions.
1) What is your experience of self remembering. Today. Now.
2) If you are going to reference “The work books” give Chapter and page Numbers if not a direct quote.
Yes I´am
God the creator of everything, now i have to tell you something very important,
The inner mean of life is the selfremembering.
All spirtual or essoteric traditions, are speaking about the same thing, in different ways in different lenguishes, in different ages.
All that Egiptians have been spoke is remember yourself,
All that Sufis have been spoke is remember yourself,
All that Budah have been spoke is remember yourself,
All that Christ spoke is Look firstly for the kingdom of heaven (your own divine presence).
And please put at least a little of resistance to the mechanical manifestations of your own king of clubs.
Do not be Lazy, (sleeper)
make efforts, resist to imagination, unnecesary talk, negative emotions, and identification.
Do some thing, in relation to your own Counsciousness.
When you wear your work on your sleeve like you do, I’m guessing that you come off to many people here as a phony asshole. Why not try following RB’s advise in relation to ex-students and “keep the space clean”, and focus your pimply hyperboles inward where they belong.
Hey folks, I just got this e-mail, I have no idea how I got it, and I don’t know quite what to make of it, it obviously got to me by accident. Anyway, I thought I’d pass on what appears to be a unique glimpse into the mind of that rare breed, an “Official Keyer”.
As you will see, it is a sort of personal diary of how the author goes about keying, how she (it’s obviously a woman, or a very unusual man) gets insights, but mixed up in it, the discerning reader of way above average intelligence (that’s you!) and good looks (that cuts out the other readers, for sure), can, if paying sufficient attention, probably sort out the parts that will go into the next edition of “Thoughts from the Teacher”, or provide the form for a future meeting. Or not.
_______________________________________
Gosh and darn, it’s past midnight, and I have one more “key” to do. I’m getting fed up with this… what do we have here, oh lord, I have to make something of this cave drawing. Drat, those are hard! Oh, it’s that cave painting I sent on to the guys this morning to be photoshopped! Let’s see, the original looked like this:
I wonder if they made the changes I suggested… Well here goes. Let’s see. it’s always safe to talk about poop, in fact it’s quite fashionable round here. Think of a number. —O.K.,
THE ESOTERIC SIGNIFICANCE OF THE 12 POOPS
Good, great headline—that’s a strong ‘do’, catches the attention! Next, insert image, here goes, insert — image.
Done, La-di-da-di-dah, standard stuff, cut and paste… Yeah, they made the changes—oh darn, they didn’t count the poops right! Darn, darn, darn! Oh well, make the best of it, I guess.
A cave painting from Lascaux, dating from 15,000-13,000 BP, depicts a rhinoceros shitting—or farting, or both—“higher thoughts” condensing out of a jet of hot air? Uh–oh, forgot the wit exercise (but really, that is what it reminds me of). So, what is the significance here? Shitting bricks of gold? Straw, properly digested (throw in something about the Sequence here) turns to gold? All this “keying” is hard, it gives me a headache!
Anyway, back to the rhinoceros turds. Got it—they represent the sequence being droned on and on, fostering imagination by the rhinoceros—the lower self—no wait, that’s not right, there are nine poops, this must mean the rhinoceros is half–way between higher centers and the artist has actually caught it in the process of crystallization! What a poop! What a scoop! This is going to liven up the next meeting, for sure. I wonder if I could wangle a promotion to “Official Angle Giver” on the strength of this? Sigh, dream on, baby, there’s so much competition… but, it was… a lovely dream. One day… Whoa, I was in imagination there for a moment—get back to work!
O.K.! (That darned King of Clubs, always trying to do me down.) Get a cup of coffee—I love the way it amps up the King of Hearts—here goes:
On the right, the newest Russian boy is lying on his back with a Viagra–induced erection, (ooh, a great big one, my panties moisteneth over!) and Our Beloved Teacher, represented by the huge, hairy Bison (symbolizing overwhelming psychological power and that “who cares?” attitude we desperately try to emulate as we squash our silly consciences) is looking back at Influence–C and winking. I swear, the Bison is actually winking. Or is that wanking? The message has become a bit garbled through 150 centuries… hold on… concentrate…o.k., this is the official, and I mean official word, it’s winking, yes, you can see one eye of the bison is winking if you look closely, that’s the sign it is spelt with an “i”. “Eye”-“I”, get it? “Aye, aye”, that means unquestioning obedience to the Teacher, oh, I’m bubbling over with esoteric insights tonight! By the way, the Bison may even be smirking (Note to self: Research this topic— Do bisons smirk? If not, use Photoshop to insert smirk) This means that he doesn’t care a damn, his followers will swallow ‘anything’, as he does himself so selflessly (I love that, Our Beloved Teacher leading by example—sigh, it’s just amazing how hard C-Influence works to humiliate him! Couldn’t they take a day off sometimes, give him a rest? I mean, I’d gladly take the burden of the Russian boys off his shoulders for a night or two.
Maybe we could print T-shirts with the slogan, “The more the Teacher swallows, the more Students can swallow”, something like that, in gold letters, sort of Egyptian style, but in English, not hieroglyphs, or maybe hieroglyphs on the front, with a message saying “see back” in small, elegant type and then the English on the back——oh no, in imagination again!).
Glad I caught that. So, what else is there to key? Ah yes: Note the young man vainly screaming in protest—who cares? Certainly not the Bison, nor the cute Russian boy’s so–called friends; they are heroically resisting being identified with his plight! His broken spirit (represented by the shattered spear) is perfectly symbolized by the artist. (By the way, did you know, each hair on the bison’s coat represents one more law he’s not under, isn’t that wonderful, and so convenient, I’m a little bit envious, but I know it’s good for me to develop patience, maybe next lifetime, why did I have to be born a mere woman, it’s unfair! But I can see I’m rambling a teeny bit, tee-hee, better get back to keying…)
Moving right along—
The twelve stools issuing from the bird (essence) represent the loss of innocence and sense of self–worth at the completion of the young man’s violation. Splat! The artist really caught the inner significance of the motion in that consciously inspired brush stroke! Splat! (I love that sound, splat! Splat— splat—splat!!. Note to self: Can one ever have too many exclamation marks? No way !!!!)
So anyway, onto the big finale. Today’s lesson is: The mighty god–like Bison lets nothing stand in his way, nothing. (Talk about consistent aim, he’s been like that for as long as I’ve known him. He glories in his lack of conscience, that’s just for sissies, he’s so far beyond that. Sigh, I wish I could be so objective about things!) The Bison seems to be saying, “It is better to seek fantasies rather than the truth—join me in mine. And mine is that I am a goddess in a bison’s body, and zowie, do I love to shop! C–Influence likes to humiliate me by making me spend all the money I can get.” All that from a simple cave drawing, I’d have never guessed, but I can see it as soon as the Teacher points it out, so I try hard, and now he trusts me to help him, that proves I’m On The Way. And I can save him from wasting his energy thinking about this kind of stuff, so he have more time thinking about what is best for us. Win–win! I mean, at least a hundred decisions a week for thirty-eight years, that’s why he’s a 7.999; I didn’t understand why that was important until he told me I didn’t have to understand, just accept it, “Acceptance is the sly man’s pill”, Gurdjieff said. Oh, he’s so helpful that way, clears up all the little difficulties my lower centers raise with a choice quote, and then I’m fine again.
Wow, I can see (with my third eye, I guess!) that, hey, that cave artist knew a thing or two about objective art…(my lower parts—see, they’re doing it again— find it hard to believe he knew how to consciously send on hidden messages 150 centuries, but I know I can separate from the temptation to doubt if I really, deeply try to stop thinking for myself, and just trust the Teacher.) ( Note to self: Disbelief feeds the devil, just have more faith!)
Now we’re smokin’!
The rhinoceros, which is defecating, represents the instinctive center, which says, “There’s nothing like a good shit when you really have to go”. (Note to self: Didn’t Gurdjieff say something along these lines too? Research fully, adds credence and mystique if he did. And if he didn’t, be intentionally insincere, the audience will never know, it makes them feel special, no, not special, that’s vanity just really, really fortunate that they’re the only ones who are saved. The Teacher taught me that, the goal is the state (and l’etat c’est moi), do whatever it takes to get there. So you see, we can go on learning from Teacher forever. Oh glory, forever is hardly long enough, it makes me weak at the knees to think about it!
I’m so glad when the Teacher uses my research to make some point, it makes me feel all goosebumpy and humble and lucky all over! (Memo to self: bring an extra pair of panties to work each day, it’s too exciting for just one pair—or at least, no more skimpy thongs!).
Enough of that, on, on, on.
So the Big Daddy Bison says, “Disregard such messages (that bit about enjoying a good shit), it is better to die of constipation than to give in to the low demands of the King of Clubs.” (Note to self: not quite right, something about the cadence, ask an older student for advice on this one, they always know what is right, ‘cos they’re close to Beloved Teacher, such a relief to be guided by them!).
In the groove, passing straight through the ‘si-do’ interval!
A cave painting in Lascaux, dating to 15,000-13,000 BP, depicts a rhinoceros defecating.
Hmm, if I close my eyes tight, like this, and hit my head with the lamp, like this, sometimes some new insights come to me. Lets see… o.k., here it comes: If the rhino carries on like this, it will be up to its knees in shit, which means the FoF, 15,000 years later, will be in big doo-doo. And if disregards the warnings and it still continues to shit “in its own nest” it will be drowned in its own doo-doo (o.k., o.k., even I know that rhinos never shit in their own nests, but it’s late at night, can’t think of anything better, who’ll notice anyway, and I’m all alone, except for the sound of rapidly approaching footsteps). Unfortunately, the artist had to run to escape the tidal wave of excrement, which is why there is no record of it from all those years ago. Still, the warning is there for anyone to see with their third eye. (Memo to self: Better send an e-mail to everyone on ProperLiar warning about that in the morning! Also: bring more headache pills!)
Phew! The — end. —Finally!!!!
I’m done, I’m so glad, outta here——— WTF?
Linda, why are you tapping me on the shoulder like that? Linda, why are you cramming a valium into my mouth with one hand, and trying to strangle me with the other? Linda, why are you screaming at me, and revoking my license to key things? What do you mean, a medical leave of absence? Don’t what—heck, Linda, that’s not the “Delete” key, that’s the “Send” bu
119 KA
I agree with what you say up to a point.
The 4th way system was never designed as a social blueprint. It’s focus is on the individual and only the spiritual evolution of an individual. The means is self remembering. My point is that because Robert Burton and his inner circle have corrupted the system to fit their agenda does not negate the value of the system for an individual. My relationship to the system is from a personal level. I came back to these ideas not through the Fellowship but through my own experiences after leaving the Fellowship and the system behind for 15 years. I was involved with Alcoholics Anonymous. This involved undergoing some serious inner changes. Only after I had given up all my ideas about what I knew did I come back to the system and find that it served to explain my own spiritual experiences.This was over a period of years. It was not a map of what I was looking for but of where I’ve been. So arguing about it on a theoretical level, to me, is shallow because most of what it contains are facts not just in my past experience but in my present moment to moment experience. In each moment such ideas as the 4 functions, self remembering, identification, center of gravity, features, imagination, 2nd state and 3rd state exist in my consciousness. My own sleep is my #1 reality. I also do not argue because I am invested in it. I get no royalties from it and offer no seminars for those buying enlightement. I do not use it in my day to dayinteractions with others. It is only on this blog because this is the right place. It is important to distinguish between the distortions of the Fellowship of Friends methods and the reality that the system itself is a seperate thing.
The are a spectrum of positions in relation to the Fellowship and different ideas. I try to be clearl about my position not because it is right or a great revealed truth but because it is my own hard won experience and that is what the 4th way is really about. Developing individuality, consciousness, conscience and will.
122 Simple truth
Cutting and pasting from The Fellowship Journal does not count for much.
How much more if you had written-today as I again began my efforts to self remember I…..
Bruce, Why are you insulting, if I only Wrote Thoughts of Counscious Men.
you can not see? that all that i wrote is more valuable than the stuff and insults that live in you.
to isult is mechanical, have you verify this? or you not are interested on work over yourself?
I think you have nothing important to do with your life and you feel very important when some body else tellyou “very well Bruce” and you belive those words making grow your own vanity.
you spend a lot of time insulting and writing stuff.
Calm Down.
Work over yourself, observe your mechanical reaction to this thought.
You seemed to intentionally skip over my statement about you defeating poor Robert’s will by going against his suggestion to not communicate with ex-members, and “keep the space clean”. Is this something you prefer to not address in your all encompassing hypocrisy? Did the gods speak to you and suggest you rescue all the unbelievers? I think perhaps you have your head up your ass.
Hi Ames, your web link was of course a dead give away. I guess it could be Nancy, but no, it’s got to be Ames. I laughed so hard I had to go change my panties–just a little pee. Wit can be a very healing thing. In qigong they sometimes just laugh for a few minutes because it massages all the internal organs.
Hello,
I wanted to use this forum to say my story as I can’t find anywhere else to tell it. No-one but an ex-member could know why I joined the FoF and left my family.Why I stood up in a courtroom defending the FoF as I was losing access to my only child.Years later ( I left 10 years ago after 8 yrs in the fellowship) trust is hard to come by. And to top it all I live in Europe! I lived in Renaissance as it was then for about 12 months.
I did enjoy meeting people there and sometimes wonder how they are. I won’t mention names. I shook your hand Joel F in New York once. I found the New York centre very hospitable. We had pizza.
Ah well you can’t escape the pain of ordinary living.If you escape the pain you live in the superficial hollow world of the intellect.And it’s joyless. Just listen to the tone of voice.There I’ve said all I need to say about the FoF ,thanks for the space.
P
Scott (I had rather call you Scott than the undeserved insult you wear proudly),
You wrote (to KA): “The 4th way system was never designed as a social blueprint.”
The question I have for you is, why are you so sure of this?
Not anything I say, from your post’s it seems less and less likely you were ever a member of the Fellowship. Perhaps this is my limitation. I cannot imagine why anyone would be a member of The Fellowship of Friends if they did not experience and value self remembering.
I keep asking you about what you refer to as “self remembering” and my perception is that you keep avoiding the specifics of the subject, and instead simply refer to it in shorthand as though we all know what you’re talking about.
Consider, perhaps, that some small minority of us have completely abandoned as useless the attentional practice we so relentlessly pursued within the Fellowship. I realize this may be hard to conceive, given the constant hammering there, and in the ideology generally, as to how important the practice of “self remembering” was.
Perhaps we found that this divided attention practice did not promote our ability to be whole and to experience our own wholeness, and decided it led mostly to dissociation and was drastically oversold. (Paradoxical, isn’t it, that something “divided” is sold as a ticket to “unity”?)
Or perhaps we discovered something entirely new, having nothing to do with “divided attention” but which we felt properly deserved the label “self remembering.”
I am not a big fan of the royal we so let me say “I” hereafter. For myself, in my own inner vocabulary, I have completely hollowed out the term “self remembering” which I encountered before the Fellowship and followed so diligently in the Fellowship. Into that empty hull of phonemes I have put something entirely new which has nothing to do with either “divided attention” or the so-called “fourth way.” And that entirely private thing I find valuable. But I doubt I could really explain it to anyone.
“The 4th way system was never designed as a social blueprint.”
Even IF this was true it doesn’t matter. It was designed for human beings. Human beings function social units. Even if you have a complete hermit living way out somewhere no phone, no computer, no blog they are still a social unit – they had to get born at some point.
A system does not need to be a “blueprint” to have a social effect. Studying that effect is a valid way to evaluate the system.
I can’t figure out why you seem rather angry at VP. It seems obvious that we receive the system because of a string of value judgments – a string of different people had to publish the books, distribute, to put it on the bookstore shelf. This was done in the social soup of western Judeo/Christian culture. There must be something I’m missing about what you are saying.
I have to say for me, personally, when I throw away a system – even if it is just temporary – there is a void created. And into that void something arises that is sacred.
OK This is for all those Fof members still “in”. Most of you know me. Would you please spread this message through the grapevine.
DO NOT PARK IN MY DRIVEWAY WITHOUT PERMISSION.
I cannot understand why folks assume they can park their cars where they wish because an area is surrounded by students houses.
There was a concept called ‘external consideration’ which meant among other things to consider other peoples needs above one’s own. If for no other reason than that – don’t park there we use it all the time and so do our friends.
I hope this gets through and spreads like wild fire through the Fof members. I have spoken to Eliza T as she often has events at her place and still folks don’t get the message.
It’s TRAMP don’t park there!!!! Get it!!!
If you read this and think I’m negative – very well observed, full marks.
If you wish to park in those spaces, knock on the door and ASK
Scott (I had rather call you Scott than the undeserved insult you wear proudly),
You wrote (to KA):
“The 4th way system was never designed as a social blueprint.”
The question I have for you is, why are you so sure of this?
I write a more complete repsonse but the part of the system that the Fellowship bases it existance on as a true “school of the 4th way” is mostly in Chapter 11 of the 4th way. It is theory. Neither Ouspensky nor Gurdjieff was successful in developing their idea of a “school”. Yet they both produced conscious students. This leaves the theories open to question. But even in terms of the theories the Fellowship has distorted ideas to justify Robert’s own vision of himself as a divine Goddess. The Fellowship fails in its number 1 job to put someone in your place. Whether this is Robert or any older student for the school to be real its product must be real.
Take the time to read chapter 11 of The 4th way. Most of what the Fellowship has used to justify itself is there. I would definitly agree that to take these ideas out of context to justify a heirarchy would make them an ideology. At least in terms of function. That does not negate that that is not the purpose of the system as a whole.
Remember when some recently departed posters said that not many FOF members read the blog, because they have more important things, and are completely devoted to the school (paraphrase).
Well, I guess when members post parking warnings on the blog to make sure everyone who’s “in” reads it, there’s members reading it, maybe pervasively.
I’m not really surprised. I’d be surprised if it was the other way around.
#124 retarded fool, you quote Ouspensky, The Fourth Way:
“There is art number one, that is the art of man number one, imitative, copying art, or crudely primitive and sensuous art such as the dances and music of savage peoples. There is art number two, sentimental art; art number three, intellectual, invented art; and there must be art number four, number five, and so on…”
You assert that this is not judgmental or hierarchical, merely a statement of “facts.” Please explain how words like “imitative,” “crudely primitive,” “savage” and “sentimental” are not judgmental?
Please explain how a statement like “the lower cannot see the higher” is not hierarchical? There is a clearly implied hierarchy: one is HIGHER THAN the other.
In your post #128 you state:
“In each moment such ideas as the 4 functions, self remembering, identification, center of gravity, features, imagination, 2nd state and 3rd state exist in my consciousness. My own sleep is my #1 reality. ”
COULD IT BE that the REASON your own sleep is your #1 reality is that in each moment, your consciousness is filled with IDEAS such as the 4 functions, self-remembering, identification….etc.
Personally ‘a former student’, I simply cannot bring myself to use your ‘tongue in cheek’ new blog-name; please consider changing back or bringing about a ‘title’ closer to the silent one within you…
resentment has written billions of books and said nothing for the soul.
I found my blog-name by turning to a page in a Latin dictionary and just choosing whatever was on the page that Chance told me was most applicable to the blog; you might give it a try.
You wrote ~
“Here is a central issue. You challenge my right to have an opinion, my way of presenting my opinion, and now the validity of my own spiritual understanding. In general this is a topic in which a certain respect for others helps as we all try or best what is your view? You make this because the unspoken assumption is that you know the truth? Well that’s false or you would model a different affect than that of arrogant one who knows.”
_________
It seems to me that the “challenge my right to have an opinion” is working both ways between yourself and V.
There’s something very fundamental missing from both of your posts (well, your whole ‘correspondence’), which ‘could’ be a “holy reconciling factor”; I’ll get to it soon…
_________
You wrote ~
“For those in the back rows the question is Self remembering, is it real, The system is it objective knowledge.”
_________
For me, there are no “rows”… this is the first false key that we unknowingly try and find a ‘door’ for…
Truly, no one is in the front, back, or middle rows… unless of course you’re in Robert Burton’s School of Polluted Relative Awakening, where the elites grab the seats up front and the serfs default-body-heat keeps the room warm on cool winter days…
A former student ~ See, you’re setting yourself up for the triad of a feature-discussion about something much broader than the mind’s wiseacring about something it cannot be applied towards, in so far as experiencing what it is that’s YOU, beyond discussion, beyond questions, beyond needing affirmations and ‘connections’ with people who are ‘just as hungry’…
It’s alright to be hungry, just try not to eat your left hand while your scanning the menu with the right.
To me, the desperateness shared between the two of you would be a far greater first force to go for a nice lunch and some serious shopping or to spend a half day at a putt-putt golf course…Have some fun, that is…
________________
Quoting Veronique Poe ~
VP wrote “The fourth way ideology is a blueprint for hierarchical social organization. There are “men number 4 and then there are those above them who have authority. Don’t kid yourself that this point is peripheral. It’s central.”
______________________
It’s interesting, to say the least, that what’s actually “central” Veronique is YOU, not the Fourth Way system;
I truly see no reason to try and ‘philosophically’ separate the two: your organs are not much good if YOU do not wish to live. The same goes for the Fourth Way.
The only “authority” that a being “above” another being has is it’s ability to have none; save the imaginary “above” that the painbody applies to others who ’seem’ to be more of what it wishes or wiseacres to want to become other than cleaning it’s own bathroom firstly;
and as everyone knows, you can aspire towards another’s supposed ‘level of being’, yet, in the end, you are right back where you left off, prior to the ‘inspiration’…
Inspiration does nothing for the man or woman who first gets the spark from someone who in their own essence is finished with that particular ‘chapter in their life’; it’s like painting a fossil green so to call it ‘living’…
I would say that 96% of all inspirations which automatically exude from others ’seem to be’ impression, is something that they themselves pay no attention towards; at least not as much attention as their ‘fans’, their ‘followers’…
the fingerprint is not the hand; an on Valentine’s Day, waz up with that? A heart filled with sweet aphrodisiacs? I’m not even going there… What holiday is not filled with affirmations and aphrodisiacs? (Not to forget, not all affirmations are positive, there are negative one’s too; albeit at some point all affirmations could be considered ’subtractive’.)
To me, Veronique, the only ‘askew’ that I have ‘felt’ from reading your above quote concerning the fourth way system is your over indulgence in “system”; what if it was called ‘The Fourth Door’ or ‘The Fourth You’ or ‘The Fourth Heart’?
This intellectual indulgence has (for you) placed the Fourth Way outside of its intended context,
i.e., the inner-societies of You; remember what Gurdjieff said ~ “Man’s name is Legion.”(?) (possibly he was quoting a similar line of the bible script)…
Nonetheless, the only applicable place for the Fourth Way’s “blueprint for hierarchical social organization” is within You; not the external world…
Is there not this ‘hierarchical’ within You?
It’s Robert Burton’s bastardizations that have put ‘The Way’ (like a needle) into ‘The Hay’… Marking himself as the only one who can find it or has found it, throwing it back in there for posterity (or next lifetime) sake.
The Fourth Way was never meant (like the essential nature of other Three Ways) to be relative to such documents as Plato’s Republic or The Declaration of Independence (are) to society who, they themselves are not asking for it (albeit no one’s really asking for the Plato R or Declaration I, either);
to write an Esoteric Declaration of Independence would be the most difficult document in human history to be scripted, not that it could not be done, yet, this world is far from ready to consider it as such and it seems that students of the fourth way have some inner-un-wiseacring to do as well concerning the initial ‘being’ of the actual body belonging to the Fourth Way, not the thousands of suits that have been tailored to fit its teachers (and students)…
____________
108 ~ ‘a former student’ wrote ~
“This is an if question “if the system is objective knowledge” what then? Is there any test? Only self remembering. But here is the Key , again an if question “if self remembering is possible” then can you explain it to someone who cannot experience it? The answer is no. This is all that separates man #4 from man #1,#2 and #3.”
_____________________
Try this ~ “If I am objective knowing, what then?”
Self remembering is not a test, it’s passing and moving on, out of the classroom; getting off your test-taking-butt and living more than ‘just a little’.
Ouspensky said that everyday is a test; I have yet to disprove this extraordinary ‘theory’…
So, for me, the actual passing of the test is not another test as to whether you passed it with the kind of ‘A+’ I would wiseacre you have;
this ‘grade’ comes from your conscience, your gut, your conscious bravery to really see where you have been, opposed (so to speak) to where you ‘thought’ you’d like to go, etc.
The Fellowship of Friends has taught you how to respond to your own successes, i.e., that they are just not enough, unless Robert Burton notices them…
Luckily, for you, its stuck in your head, not your heart and you’ll get over it (or through it), for sure…
You write ~
“if self remembering is possible” then can you explain it to someone who cannot experience it? The answer is no. This is all that separates man #4 from man #1,#2 and #3.”
_______________
A former student, where do you get this stuff?
The answer is never ‘no’… I myself have proven this, albeit to myself, yet, I cannot believe we are different species from other planets (yet);
while traveling in the East, I, during a brief meeting with a certain ‘camel driver’ introduced him to self remembering; I have no idea what he ever did with ‘the spark’, yet, I am certain that ‘he got it’ and burned with it in my presence;
now whether his ‘forest fire’ has a billion year old coal deposit available for kindling is up to him and the mysterious passage of this time on this planet of no name.
To me, the word “if” is an alarm, particularly when used to begin a question, while whose questioner has no real ascending answer for, other than another ‘if” as one.
Have you ever met a Man #1, #2 or #3? How is it that you became a Man #4 without having been 1,2, and 3?
Try this; go to a monastic order of brothers or a nunnery and explain the ‘theory’ of Self Remembering to them; let me know your results.
Of course, being present during such an introduction to Self Remembering is barely 1/100 of a percent of the story that may or may not unfold afterwards; many simply put it aside as an idea, interesting, odd… To truly do something with it can never be predicted or regulated.
Get thee to Tibet and meet some Tibetan Monks or to Berkeley (there’s probably more there than in Tibet) and prove your “no” full-proof (or fool-proof);
one ‘yes’ out of a billion would prove the ‘no’ a ‘yes’ BTW.
__________________
114 Veronicapoe wrote ~
Veronicapoe responds: “Surely the “work books” are permeated with ideas that imply, or even state baldly, a social power dynamic, to the following effect: “In schools, Men #4 have less power, ‘higher’ men, who run the schools, have more.” Do you dispute this?
In my view that it is an ideology is a pretty elementary proposition.”
____________
Elementary indeed Veronique; and BTW, what “proposition” is ever anything but “elementary”?
The word “surely” is not too far from “if”…
“Imply” is on your side of the ‘point’; it’s not necessarily what ‘it is’.
In a real Fourth Way school the students run the school, not the teacher; so, that pretty much flushes that dead gold-plated fish cleanly down the toilet.
Osho tried it… though, the throne thing has to go eventually.
Burton is still trying it… though it all has to go; his whole school is about trying and not ‘doing’; it is a school of his love of being loved, not loving the lovers for themselves, only loving them for a more powerful reminder that ‘he’ is it;
the students blind satiating of his features and mechanics have become affirmative ‘proofs’ that the school works; yes, it works for Robert Burton the ‘role’, though, where’s the soul? (maybe next lifetime?)
We’re all evolving; I do not doubt a bit that Osho is still growing, prying himself away from those Rolls Royce affirmations; finished by now I hope (so to speak).
Anything that is “disputable” in a Fourth Way School is not the subject of the Fourth Way,
it’s sheer nature of being something than can imbue an argument between two people (or more) with opposite thinking and (I’s), does not belong to objective knowledge or its implied handling of it, i.e.,
being objective and having certain depths of external consideration and objective love, to not just understand that another is not where you are on a particular subject, but to value what it ‘feels like’ to experience both,
one’s extreme vanity elation of knowing too much of one’s own scripted opinion and having it’s corresponding button pushed by one’s quick judgments or superstitions of the ability of ignorance to redeem itself and another’s actual real-time-ignorance and shy innocence within your personal realm of being.
There is a great and holy ‘thing’ between two people that is seldom paid any ‘money’ towards: it’s called SPACE.
It’s in that space that real love can be performed, not had, simply danced, then you move on with your lot, your life as it is in the one and only now.
_______________________
Veronique ~
You wrote to ‘a former student’ ~
“You say, “self-remembering” makes it different and takes it out of the realm of an ideology. I respect that this is your opinion, but it is not a position that has any logical force. It is essentially a mystical argument, an announcement that this is incontrovertible and is not open to examination or debate. So, as I say, if you don’t want to have it examined, that’s fine. Maybe someone else wants to take up the banner.
_________________
When does the blank phenomenon “force” become “logical”?
When it has entered your head before your heart.
Actually, Veronique, saying “I respect…” and on the same line stating “it is not”… This is absolutely impossible to hold steady in one test tube… it’s a roller coaster ride whose passengers are inflatable dummies filled with nitroglycerin.
There is no such a thing as a “mystical argument”…
Can someone tell me if Grant R. is still growing weed? It seems that some of you may have current, personal verifications of its existence in the actual now…
What “banner” Veronique? I thought we were finished flying banners of others narcissistic reflections in the pool.
You write ~
“an announcement that this is incontrovertible and is not open to examination or debate.”
Wow, try telling that to the story of Rumi and Shams or any beings relationship to ‘outside forces’.
Cannot ‘outside forces’ come in disguise as a friend’s introduction of denying force? In the possibility of an argument or a damning expression of the negative and static?
I do not sense there is an “announcement” that is ever ‘not’ or ‘moot’ (objectively speaking)
although there is a thing called narcissistic laziness, which is a strange superstition from the ancient land of narcissistic-ism that
one cannot see the same image of oneself in another’s pond while they are simultaneously seeing theirs in yours…
It’s the being of the listener which prescribes such limiting profundities to love’s possibilities and the stretching of one’s being to go a bit beyond the cliff’s edge, like Roadrunner.
The only ‘thing’ that prescribes such limitations is ‘Fear’ and ‘willful vanity’. Get rid of those and you’ll be surprised at what others can show you concerning your ever growing being’s direction, that you yourself could never navigate alone (unbeknown the most psyches possessed by their automatic body types and features, who determine the ‘first impressions’ of others and pigeon hole the ‘vision’ as finished, confusing, indisputably personal and sacredly me, me, me.
___________________
‘A former student’ wrote ~
“The single most important aspect is conscience and individual consciousness and will. There is no place in the Fellowship for these aspects of individuality to develop.”
______________
Ah, that’s ‘three’ aspects BTW…
Actually there is a place in The Fellowship of Friends for these to grow, it’s just a Catch 22 thingy, that is, that once it does begin to grow in ‘there’ it leaves the school,
it’s ’sprout’ is what takes people out of Robert Burton’s window-seal-dope-pot and allows the ‘flood’ to plants itself deep within some incredible meadow, where there is plenty of depth and midnight breezes.
It’s ironic I must admit; though, ‘the jewels’ of The Fellowship of Friends are those who have taken a hammer to the 44 carat diamond and stopped scribbling their initials on movie house mirrors, just to remind themselves that ‘real diamonds cut glass’.
Yes, and ‘real diamonds’ also make good ‘diamond dust’ which, once embedded in a circular steel blade, cuts ‘not so pretty geodes’ in half, revealing thousands of sparkling crystals and colors.
To me, (if) one wants to make it a habit to single out an aspect of the fourth way system, I find it helpful to find one that embraces the whole system, not just another aspect;
I like this one ~ “Can I do” ~ anything with all this stuff?”
Remember, Ouspensky said that “Self Remembering is not enough; you have to do something with it.”
Also, O. reminded his students, that, without a certain kind of emotional intensity, super efforts cannot be achieved, cannot go beyond the automatic shut-down of the four lower centers…
where G., added that the system cannot ‘create’ without efforts or intentional suffering (see “Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson.”)
There is so much book-dope for the sake of being a dope-book, oozing from the Galleria that the emotional premise of all 4 ways has been absolutely buffered by Robert Burton;
the only emotional intensity he creates is by default, movie-star wiseacre-triggering of his ‘fans’…
and of course ‘the scandals’ and ‘contradictions’ that actually don’t keep his students ‘transforming’, rather,
it keeps them drinking, gossiping, self doubting or military cold-hearted self assured, so to walk away from their own inner-robert-burton;
worshiping the coming of the new age rather than householdering this one.
_______________________
140 Veronicapoe
You wrote ~
“And that entirely private thing I find valuable. But I doubt I could really explain it to anyone.”
________________________
Actually (for me, my sense), it’s this “doubt” that fuels your vivacious mind activity to cover up your heart aches…
This last line written by you is an incredible ‘key’ (do you sense that?)…
it is this ‘private thing’ that is actually inside ‘a former student’ as well; you guys just haven’t putt putted enough…
If we cannot express in some form (not necessarily written) what is essentially “valuable” at the get go of any interaction, even if its with a rock;
then that SPACE (between seer and seen) cannot breath;
then there is no real emotional valuation for the conversation, thus, our sub-conscious regret or fear titles it ‘my point’, ‘my way of seeing’, ‘my thing I can’t explain…’
Sure, you can’t explain it; although you can possibly express it from the point of view of allowing it’s loving force to be your nucleus, your omnipresent reconciler, for being very sure of not being sure:
why argue with the quicksand’s depth when you’re already completely submerged?
That ‘very fundamental missing’ element I said I’d get around to (soon) mentioning is LOVE;
If we cannot hold love as the first and foremost priority, before all mind activity, thirst for comparisons, competition and drama, then we are not students of anything, let alone the 4 ways;
it is love, the tolerance of indecision, of ignorance, of inconsistency, of differences, that use that SPACE as spaciousness between our convictions, where we can exist before any ‘point’, before any ‘I’, before any ‘question’ or ‘answer’, before the Devil itself and smile (without tongue in cheek or hands in pockets), this is our spiritual territory, this is where we all truly live and move (or not) about.
_______________________
Unoanimo – finally someone who had the decency to ask first!
I don’t mind a bit of a wrestle, as long as I can shower afterwards!
By the way – within an hour or so of my posting, someone in Salim’s Restaurant told me they heard something about not parking in my driveway – It worked, and I could give a threepenny toss about using the blog for this purpose. If anyone has a problem – stew in it, it’s your problem, enjoy!
on 16 Jul 2007 at 2:32 am
in post #151 unoanimo
God, unoanimo you are the chinese food of the blog. I don’t know what a lot of what you say means. I often doubt whether it means anything to you. While reading it seems like there is a large selection of ideas and insights but When I’m done I get the equivalent of mental gas and then I feel hungry again as If I hadn’t eaten anything.
The least valueble part of your post in when you question the value of the interchamge. from my perspective its not about being right it just caring enough to write about something. With all its inherent limitations confronataion either or situation seems to work in this format. It is the process that is important both in my questioning someone else’s assumptions and having mine mirrored back.
The part that is so contradictory is that you are doing what you question. You are reacting to a stimulous. Logically the correct response to an unneeded interchange is quite. Don’t feed it. You seem to like to jump in with a big stik stir it up then stand back and exclaim with surprise “why would you look at that shit!!!!”
After reading your post I now understand that I should have invited the whole blog to the mud wrestling fest at Rebecca’s goat pen; sorry for not initially including you, your post reflects a definite aura of wanting to join us, so, yes, you can wrestle too and as far as I understand Steven, you can also park in his driveway; just be sure to leave an enneagram painted in mud on you car hood so to identify your car as belonging to one of us.
121 David
Thank you so much for your careful explanation of what got many of you interested in the Fellowship, what kept you there for so long, and, now, how it has all transformed into something that most rational people would find distasteful. Your explanation helped make it much more understandable to me, as to how so many bright, sane, seekers got immersed in what seems like a bizarre lifestyle. And yet, as a teacher, I totally understand the lure of a school of like-minded individuals. It was a noble experiment, and I hope that those of you who leave–band your energy together with old friends and new to still follow that youthful idealism and create a wiser manifestation of “awakening within the real world”. Perhaps, the greatest mistake any of you made was to forget that each of us is a teacher, each of us is a student, each of us is forever learning and awakening and leading and following. . . .
Thank you for taking the time to educate an outsider, David. May our paths cross one day.
Fellowship of Friends and
Robert Earl Burton
are on this ladder:
LA Cardinal Apologizes to Plaintiffs
Jul 15, 6:27 PM (ET)
By GILLIAN FLACCUS
LOS ANGELES (AP) – Cardinal Roger Mahony, leader of the nation’s largest Roman Catholic archdiocese, apologized Sunday to the hundreds of people who will get a share of a $660 million settlement over allegations of clergy sex abuse.
“There really is no way to go back and give them that innocence that was taken from them. The one thing I wish I could give the victims … I cannot,” he said.
“Once again, I apologize to anyone who has been offended, who has been abused. It should not have happened, and it will not happen again.”
Mahony said that he has met in the past 14 months with dozens of people alleging clergy abuse and that those meetings helped him understand the importance of a quick resolution to the lawsuits.
The settlement will not affect the archdiocese’s core ministry, Mahony said, but the church will have to sell buildings, use some of its invested funds and borrow money. The archdiocese will not sell any parish property, he said.
The deal between the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles and more than 500 alleged victims of clergy sexual abuse reached late Saturday is by far the largest payout since the nationwide clergy abuse scandal emerged in 2002 in Boston.
The settlement also calls for the release of priests’ confidential personnel files after review by a judge. According to Tod Tamberg, spokesman for the archdiocese, the settlement had not required Mahony to make his public apology.
Earlier Sunday, Mahony presided over Mass at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels in downtown Los Angeles without directly addressing the settlement. The service did include a prayer for victims of clergy abuse.
Mahony and all parties are expected before a Los Angeles Superior Court judge on Monday to enter the settlement into the court record, attorneys said.
(AP) In this file photo, members of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, SNAP, protest…
Full Image
“I think for those of us who have been involved in this for more than five years, it’s a huge relief,” said Michael Hennigan, archdiocese attorney. “But it’s a disappointment too that we didn’t get it done much earlier than this.”
Parishioners reacted with disappointment and relief to the settlement.
Vivian Viscarra, 50, who attends Mass at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels three times a month, said the victims deserve the payout even though it could hurt the church’s ability to deliver important services. The amount would average a little more than $1.3 million per plaintiff, although individual payouts will vary according to the severity and duration of the abuse.
“I am disappointed,” Viscarra said. “And it’s making me re-evaluate my views of whether people in the ministry should be married. People do have needs.”
Chris Parra, who attends Mass every Sunday, said she couldn’t help thinking about the settlement when she shook Mahony’s hand on the way out of the cathedral.
“Even when I was standing there, shaking his hand, I was thinking about how he’s finally going to release the priests’ personnel records and I wondered to myself why didn’t he do that sooner,” she said, holding her baby, Tomas.
Parra said she was upset that her tithing would go toward paying the settlement.
“I still want my children to follow the church’s guidelines and foundation because that’s how I was raised,” she said. “But there’s still a lot of healing to be done.”
The deal settles all 508 cases that remained against the archdiocese, which also paid $60 million in December to settle 45 cases that weren’t covered by sexual abuse insurance.
Under the latest deal, the archdiocese will pay $250 million, insurance carriers will pay a combined $227 million and several religious orders will chip in $60 million. The remaining $123 million will come from litigation with religious orders that chose not to participate in the deal, with the archdiocese guaranteeing resolution of those 80 to 100 cases within five years, Hennigan said.
Standing outside the cathedral, Mary Grant, spokeswoman for Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, said the settlement did not end suffering for the thousands of victims of clergy abuse.
“This is not over,” she said. “Church officials would like to think that this settlement means everything is OK…. But this is not a magic wand.”
The settlements push the total amount paid out by the U.S. church since 1950 to more than $2 billion, with about a quarter of that coming from the Los Angeles archdiocese. A judge must sign off on the agreement.
The Los Angeles archdiocese, its insurers and various Roman Catholic orders have paid more than $114 million to settle 86 claims so far.
Several religious orders in California have also reached multimillion-dollar settlements in recent months, including the Carmelites, the Franciscans and the Jesuits………..
By the way, unoanimo, I agree with Scott. You seem to presume an absence of friendliness and an absence of enjoyment in our discussion, but you’re wrong. It’s clear, to me at least, that Scott is having a good time in this interchange, as he has written elsewhere, and so am I. He gets a little more heated than I do, but so what?
One final possibly related thought I had was that the internet and this blog seems to me to be very significant. It is helping to shine light on many dark corners, non-members from around Oregon House (actually from anywhere in the world — imagine that!) are able to interact in an anonymous and hopefully mature way (in the way you’ve been able to question and converse with ‘us’).
One of the significant ideas that has been cropping up in many aspects of life over the past decades is the growing realization of the interconnectedness of everything and everyone. At first this was simply an idea to the modern western world — think of how bizarre the ideas of quantum physics seemed way back when. But as the generations have grown up with them, they have gradually become part of all our ‘worldview’. Phenomena like ‘global warming’, or ‘climate change’ (to select a timely topic) if that is a more neutral expression are also driving home in a very visceral way the fact that we are all part of one thing, and what I do to you I do to me.
These ideas were very core christian teachings, buddhist teachings, etc. Mostly they are interpreted in exoteric ways, as in be a good person, but they have a more important esoteric application where they deal with the dissolution of the ‘ego’ and the ultimate union with god/creation/absolute/reality, whatever one feels comfortable calling it. They haven’t been very much part of the fof experience up to now, and I think that paradox is fueling the fires you are witnessing. Many of ‘us’ are seeing the necessity in our own spiritual lives of expanding our concept of ‘I’, to phrase it in one way, and are not finding any of the current fof trends to be supporting that.
Well, just some musings. I am glad you found the earlier posting helpful. It was for me very useful to write it, although very uncomfortable also. Going through all this is often a very very sad experience, I have to say. I and others set sail on this ship of fools (I do not mean this in a mean way) with a lot of hope, and I guess we are finding that it isn’t heading where we want to go. But it was a great ride with great shipmates.
You sound also like an interesting person to get to know, but I have no idea how that might work. Most are very cautious about posting any personal information on this blog, and with good reason. But, one never knows.
Regarding Posts 121(David) and 161 (Observer):
I want to thank you both for your very clear and insightful posts. I was left with the strong reminder and the accompanying feelings that we who were/are in the FoF are so ‘Not Special’, but are just ordinary folks who have been cursed or blessed, depending on one’s point of view, by the ‘seeker gene’ (magnetic center). Perhaps most of us who joined the FoF attracted this situation, at least in part, because we very much needed to learn this lesson and it sometimes takes a good, sticky ‘humble pie in the face’ to get the message.
-Nancy G
“God” (125) wrote: “Do not be Lazy, (sleeper) make efforts, resist to imagination, unnecesary talk, negative emotions, and identification. Do some thing, in relation to your own Counsciousness.”
I recall how Ouspensky made a point of describing the five obstacles to awakening: They are negative emotions, unnecessary talk, imagination, identification, and…
Darn, what was that fifth obstacle? … Does anyone remember?
Oh, that’s right…
Lying
This concept is consisently left out of posts by those who defend Robert Burton. Why? Well, because it’s a key point. What if we suddently began to realize much of this — or that all of this even — is just a lie?
That we joined and stayed in the Fellowship of Friends for many years — because we were lying to ourselves?
Because we pretended to know something we didn’t know.
Again Martin, try to think of the students and on the fence who are depended on the fellowship of friends. It is not about you or AG. It is about many more people and i agree with Tim C he can use the blog, he can call or write people etc. Thanks Martin for holding your tongue, it is helpful to know all the factors involved in these decisions.
“Okay, I am not sure why so many of you think I am some kind of fictional character, so I’ll give you a little background. I was employed for many years as a teacher in the Yuba-Sutter area. In the late 80’s/early 90’s there used to be a great restaurant in downtown Marysville (can’t remember the name of it), but when I asked one of my fellow teachers the background of the restaurant because the food was so great–I heard for the first time about the Fellowship of Friends.”
I was interested in your little bit of personal history. Too bad you cannot remember the name of the “great restaurant” in downtown Marysville, with great food. We could alluse a good address for food in Marysville… That being said, I am not aware that any restaurant in Marysville was manned by FOF or people related to FOF in the late 80’s early 90’s. What was the connection between asking you colleague about the food and FOF? Thanks for clarifying.
His premise is that as a “Graduate” (man#5) his task is to teach the system. To all those who are former students of Robert Burton and dearly miss the presence of a higher man to guide their development Gregory provides such a divinely insprired service. ( I don’t know if this is a “full service” teaching as is Robert Burtons)
Check out his site it is full of such profound wisdom as this quote
“A man can never understand
anything in significant depth without first possessing self-knowledge and self-knowledge comes from self-consciousness. At the same time, the payment
for self-consciousness is the development of the mind’s intelligence, the increased coordination and discernment of the movements, the heightened perceptiveness of the instincts and the enhanced sensitivity and wisdom of
emotional understanding. Neither a raw, unrefined essence nor a superficial self-centered personality is ever permitted the authority of self-consciousness. ”
I’m sure that all those who felt the profound depth of his insights in such well thought out comments as ”
“Pay to have an IQ test conducted on yourself and carefully consider the results in comparison with the average citizen and then shut the fuck up”]
or his latest which is to change his posting name ( perhaps like our other favorite conscious man to express the feminent aspects of higher centers) and post such insightful arguments as
148 Cathie
COULD IT BE that to awaken, your mind needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP for a few minutes and just be????
Of course this does not have to be Gregory Goodwin just because I’ve witnessed him do this over and over on different sites ( ussually he gets booted than comes back, with a new name,The Sheik is more tolorant than most) this blog is probably full of individuals who have nothing better to do than imitate Gregory’s well thought out knive sharp cutting edged intellectual approach to exchanges.
Those who enjoy his cutting edge insights into esoteric thought will appreciate his creative insights in his on line books such as
THE PSYCHOLOGICAL EVOLUTION
OF MAN’S POSSIBILITIES
An original work of Greg W. Goodwin
VIEWS FROM THE NEW WORLD (Book 02-02-07)
An original work of Greg W. Goodwin
BODY TYPES
an original work copyright Greg Goodwin
ONE THOUSAND APHORISMS
Greg W. Goodwin
In Gregory’s school it is not neccessary to read from past beings he has written his own book of Gems.
such wonders of insight as
“Only speak a truth after experiencing it entirely, so that forgetting it or going against it is impossible.”
“They only dismiss words as meaningless abstractions while insisting that real people are too busy experiencing reality to speak because in truth they have nothing to offer anyone else.”
Gregory you are an imitation being, a make believe Robert Burton, regurgitating undigested information. A poor mockery of the worst of the Fellowship from which you were expelled. Your presence on the blog is an insult to anyone who actually left the Fellowship to follow conscience.
You cannot maintain a facade of intelligent communication for long because any question of your higher being threatens your imagination about your level of consciousness. And I my friend have here on the blog and over the last few years every time I have discovered your weasly presence challanged your claim as a man #5. Here is a new aphorism, steal it with my permission. I realize an original thought has never crossed your mind and if it did you would not recognize it. So take this as my gift.
“A true higher being is immune to the slurs of the lower.”
But as I said this is such a poor format why not get together in Berkeley, land of the free. Hey Greg , why are you one of the only people to be on the contact list with no contact information. Why would a man #5 be embarrassed to let people contact him?
Doesn’t matter mine is there give me a call. I can always make room in my scheduale for such a great spiritual being as you, a true , as they say “legend in their own mind”.
Your Friend
I’ll be playing solo at Bachesso’s on San Pablo and Dwight Way every Monday 6-9, on Tuesday I’ll probably go hang out and sit in with the band at the “Mojo Lounge” in Fremont and Wednsday at “Vinnies” ijam session in Concord so unless your scared I’ll take an expensive guitar and lay it upside your head to stimulate “thinking in a new way” or a moment of “metonia” drop by in Berkeley, the foods good and I’m busy playing.
I’m sure that having a conscious man in the room would radiate so much higher energy that it would be sheer bliss to be in your presence and bask in the radience of your divine consciousness, or am I confusing you with Robert Burton, the divine goddess of cock sucking.
Say Greg do you have any insights into the esoteric benifits of drinking large amounts of cum? Have you written a book on it? Tips on technique? Aphorism’s? Is rubbing it on your face good for your complexion? Was this part of how you became man #5?
Was this why you were expelled from the FOF were you poaching on Robert’s private stock? Or was it because he was aghast at the immense size and girth of your manly member and had to remove you to save himself from becoming addicted to it and drowning or choking on it?
Please , please oh, noble enlightened one,
great awakened teacher of the age
bestowe apon us your pearls of wisdom.
Invoke once again the holy power of the rightous concious “fuck You”
an adoring public awaits your darhma
167 David
173 Opus111
Thanks again to all of you who have tried to explain your strong connection to FoF and make it more explicable and less irrational to an outsider. I have been able to understand that FoF was a Fourth Way school and that Ouspensky and Gurdjieff were the philosphers upon whom much of the initial ideas of the school were based. As I am a constant reader, I wouldn’t mind reading a little bit more about the philosophical underpinnings of the Fourth Way, but I don’t really wish to wade through numerous books. Is there any one (1) book or text that would make the main ideas clearer? I catch threads of the main ideas as you all argue/discuss/debate/theorize various elements of the FoF experience, but before I have gained a substantial enough understanding the blog always returns to discussing the sex, or the lies, or the “still in” vs. “newly out” vs. “out for a long time”, or how to disband the school but keep the people, etc. and I keep feeling frustrated and curious as to what philosophical ideas could have inspired this much human drama! As a teacher who has led many group projects over the years, it is inspiring and fascinating to witness you all “debriefing” each other at such an exponential rate. Most middle-aged adults have long ago given up worrying about philosophy or spirituality in any but the most surface fashion, so it is interesting to ponder what ideas could spawn this much dedication, passion, and gossip. But I don’t want to become a follower; I just wish to follow the train of thought and argument more clearly. I can tell some of you feel very disappointed in yourselves, but I find it hopeful to witness so much passion in your discussion. I pray in the midst of the “revolution”, you are able to hold on to that passion and fervor and find a way to enrich your hearts and souls.
Opus 111, although I taught at a local school, I lived in the Grass Valley area and did not know much about Marysville. The teacher who told me the background of the restaurant based on what he knew as a resident of Yuba City has since passed away. That is all I remember of our conversation. I was in my 20’s, and I remember being struck by the idea of small, rural, ‘dull’ Oregon House being the site of an “international cult” (his words not mine). I remember we had a whole lunchtime conversation about the contrast of the different type of “cults”: the ones where they kill off their own members, or the ones where they kill off their neighbors in the community, or, in your case, the ones where they build a winery. None of us knew the ideas that motivated your “cult”, but we all chuckled and thought if we were ever going to belong to one–we voted to join yours!! (Please forgive me. I am not poking fun at any of you. I am just relating how some of your neighbors in the community have thought about and discussed you. At least most of the teachers I was eating with that day were just frankly curious as to what got you all to give up your old lives and move–sometimes halfway around the world. It sounded very exotic, innocent, and daring to all of us as we prepared for another year of teaching school. That curiousity about your group has stayed with me all of these years. I am not trying to be intrusive with comments, but, sometimes, it is of interest to see how an outsider with fresh eyes and no real preconceptions views your community.)
Thank you, again, for your receptive and open-hearted responses. I appreciate the time it takes to explain to one who knows nothing about the background of the situation and the community.
To Unoanimo, post 101 to My2Bits
“Conscience was developed to ‘holy reconcile’ our inner contradictions, our mysterious womb-condition of being within physical bodies that automatically, without our conscious will, do things, say things, that we ourselves would never permit having had happen had we been present to them prior to their automatically leaving through our ‘actions’, ‘words’, or ‘emotions’.”
Thanks…I needed that reminder today. The entire post to My2Bits hits the bull’s-eye.
-Nancy G
My bad… I forgot about Lydia’s place. I was not around Northern California at the time and never went to that place. I have little doubt that the food might have been excellent.
The book I would recommend is “The Psychology of man’s possible evolution” by Ouspensky. It is short and rather dry. O. tried to convey the essentials (of the Fourth way) in as few words as possible. Since short is one of your requests, that should do it. It is also relevant to FOF as for a long time, this was the reference preferentially given to prospective members (Burton is said to never have read anything by Gurdjieff). That being said, the “Psychology” was rarely the first book, or the only one, members had read when they joined. If you like anecdotes, context and a certain flair about presenting ideas, I would recommend “Meetings with remarkable men” by Gurdjieff.
I know their are probably numerous readers who want more of Gregory Goodwin’s teachings. Here are some more aphroism’s from the enlightened one. These are taken from
To stab them with the truth with foreknowledge that it will injure is more deceptive than outright lies.
To ingest a potent dose of truth the recipient should be intelligently immune to criticism but he must also be determinedly committed to facing himself.
Only those wounded with hypocrisy feel such a cruel sensitivity as to complain about the sharpness of truth.
Truth is what is perceived when awake, belief is what motivates men when they sleep.
The solitary truth is that a man needs to transform all of his life and then radiate the resultant fine emotion into the lives of others.
Only the ego is insulted by being told the truth about its falsity.
and as Gregory Goodwin likes to say in relation to any critism to his ability to communicate higher truths the ever popular invocation of the power of truth and the projection of higher matters internalized with the proper sensing of ones various parts in a manner becoming to a three brained being the holy “fuck You”.
Gotta love your thought process Greg reading your material is like watching a drunk pee on his own feet and enjoy the warm comfortable sensation.
Dear Observer,
I live in Grass Valley. If you’d like, my wife and I would be glad to meet you one day at the South Pine Street Café for breakfast. You’d have the opportunity to meet two fairly typical ex-members, one of whom ‘traveled half-way round the world’ to come here, the other a ‘sensible Mid-westerner’. We could bring a couple of books for you to choose from, you’d be free to ask any questions you’d like, and we’d have the opportunity to get to know you.
E-mail me at: nancyames (at) accessbee (dot) com if you want to do this.
Regards,
Ames Gilbert
Thank you ‘Living the Questions’… I needed that one; thank you.
Also a thank you to ‘A former student’ and ‘Veronicapoe’…
for reminding me by your lines ~
“You seem to like to jump in with a big stik stir it up then stand back and exclaim with surprise “why would you look at that shit!!!!”
“By the way, unoanimo, I agree with Scott. You seem to presume an absence of friendliness and an absence of enjoyment in our discussion, but you’re wrong.”
__________________________
that many of our steps within this blog ‘form’ … let’s say, is still very insincere concerning our ability to step back and see, without choosing the negative first or title ‘wrong or right’ that which a constructive critique can unlock in us all when seen from the place of neither a presupposed or predisposition to something that’s denying us the freedom to be ourselves;
somehow, so far as I have experienced ‘Friendship’, (under the carpet), particularly when aspects of that friendship begin to grow and make soft, silent calls to be more than the sort of friendship that ‘grows’ by reciprocating one another’s weaknesses contrasted against the automatic strengths that are prerequisite for judging oneself as ‘weak’… that these friendships are based on ‘BELIEF’, not being, belief in the little self, not being free of certain lines in the sand…
It seems that I unknowingly crossed that ‘line in the sand’ with both of you (‘A Former Student and Veronicapoe) and I can assure you both that it will not happen again; unless you call for it: I understand now and will act accordingly…
Thank you both, again, for your very clear messages as to what you need from your friends; complete obedience within the framework of formatory argument; any attempt to reconcile both sides, bringing to light neither a winner or a loser is seen as a threat…
I understand this and wish you both well.
_________________________________
‘Another Name’ (160) ~
I am curious as to the sincerity of your post…Did you have ‘tongue in cheek’ while writing it… certainly the above quotes would reveal otherwise.
_________________________________
Love thrives on its opponents; particularly when they serve as mirrors of what one’s love needs to ‘do’ in order to be either more patient or more nothing; silent love can move mountains as well as earthquakes.
Observer
“I just wish to follow the train of thought and argument more clearly. “
———————————————————————–
chopsticks
Observer, I am still not convinced that you are real. Anyone can pass the information you gave.
Let assume that you are a real outside person.
As a teacher you know that if a pupil from first grade will go to a class in college he will not understand what is going on.
It is impossible to make you understand things that take years to understand.
I suggest you read the booklet “the Psychology of man Possible evolution” that has some fundamental ideas, then think about the ideas for awhile and then contact the blog if you have questions..
Also as a beginner ask more talk less listen more.
I’ve kinda lost track of my discussion with VP on the system.
My position is that if as it is presented to be “a system of objective knowledge” it is not an ideology.
If it is used to justify criminal activities ( both in the objective and subjective, legal sense) then it is an ideology.
But this is one way to discuss triads, right action. The use of a thing is part of a triad. A thing in and of itself has no value, its use, they force it conducts does.
Take a simple object, a wooden chair. To the senses it is one thing. Objectively it is a conductor of force. It can conduct one of three forces in six possible processes.
On page 75 chapter 4 of “The Theory of Celestial Influence” Rodney Collin wrote…..
We may summarize the processes thus:
(a) Sun: Earth: Planets: or Life: Matter: Form:
Incarnation, Growth, Multiplication, Elaboration.
(b) Sun: Planets: Earth: or Life: Form: Matter:
Decay, Disintegration, Destruction, Elimination.
(c) Earth: Sun: Planets: or Matter: Life: Form:
Transformation, Refinement, Purification, Digestion.
(d) Planets: Sun: Earth: or Form: Life: Matter:
Disease, Rebellion, Corruption, Crime.
(e) Earth: Planets: Sun: or Matter: Form: Life:
Adaptation, Invention, Healing, Renewal. (f) Planets: Earth: Sun: or Form: Matter: Life:
Regeneration, Re-creation, Change of Nature, Art. All phenomena on earth, known
and unknown, belong to one or another of these six processes. For there are no others.
And no others are possible
The first process is the creation of the chair. energy-matter form. Some energy from that of a skilled craftsman to a robot lathe cut and shapes, fits together the material-then it is a chair. It could have been a bookshelf, a coffee table but we have a chair. What is usually missed by the normal mind is that this process is a descending octave, energy enters mass to create a form. This first process also includes multiplication, elaboration and growth. It is very important to reflect on this process and that it is a descending octave. we often mistake this process as an ascending octave. When this happens we literally don’t know up from down.
In the second process time itself acts on the chair. This is decay, destruction, elimination
Life (energy) matter- form
Shakespeare discusses this second process in Sonnet 64
“When I have seen by Time’s fell hand defaced
The rich proud cost of outworn buried age;
When sometime lofty towers I see down-razed
And brass eternal slave to mortal rage;
When I have seen the hungry ocean gain
Advantage on the kingdom of the shore,
And the firm soil win of the watery main,
Increasing store with loss and loss with store;
When I have seen such interchange of state,
Or state itself confounded to decay;”
The third process is refinement, transformation, digestion
This process describes all that happens to the chair in terms of maintenance, cleaning, painting, restoration.
The 4th process is Form: Life: Matter:
Disease, Rebellion, Corruption, Crime.]
How can a chair be criminal. Well if you can’t sit on it its not a chair. So it can be a simple as some ice or thumb tacks. Is the electric chair criminal, objectively, using it to kill? It is also when it retains the form of a chair but is not useable.
In the 5th process
(e) Earth: Planets: Sun: or Matter: Form: Life:
Adaptation, Invention, Healing, Renewal.
we see something as simple as standing on a chair to change a lite bulb. All verity of specialized chairs, like wheel chairs that are part of healing, and the simple use of a chair for a primary purpose to sit and renew ones energies.
The 6th process
(f) Planets: Earth: Sun: or Form: Matter: Life:
Regeneration, Re-creation, Change of Nature, Art.
This process is similar to creation but the order is reversed. In this process form organizes matter to create life. The Mona Lisa is a great example. A couple of bucks worth of canvas, paint and wood yet through some magic it conveys some incredible energies of a higher order.
This is just a simple example of right thinking. Right thinking is thinking with scale and relativity. This means Octaves and triads. Right thinking leads to right action. This is an important part of both the teaching of the Buddha and the Tao, The I-Ching.
I believe that the system is an important tool in developing right thinking. However it is also an instruction manual on developing individuality, consciousness, conscience and will.
How then can it be used to justify a criminal ideology. The model is when form destroys life and leaves matter. The form of the Fellowship destroy object conscience and consciousness while claiming to develop them. This is crime in an objective sense.
The system is an object, call it a map. The value is in its use. The Fellowship of Friends did not invent the system, did not use it effectively, do not use it effectively and have added little of value. The system is still as it was unchanged available to do its intended work, which as with all B influence is to be there for magnetic center and ones own inner development.
It is an interesting and unfortunate development that “the system” designed as was Buddha’s Teaching to be as free of preconception as possible is now considered a “loaded ideology” because of the Fellowship of Friends. In the world wide community of those who have tried to follow the teachings of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky the Fellowship has become a joke, an object of horror and dismay. It members considered gullible fools tricked by a charismatic fraud into devoting their precious magnetic centers to building his shrine , his temple to his divinity. That is the true purpose of Isis. A temple and shrine to its divine goddess.
If this blog helps to shed a little of the light of truth on this criminal perverted sexual predator
it is a good thing. Remember. Robert is already writing his own epithet , his followers are planning his elevation to the status of a divine messenger. Let the truth exist also.
Similar to “Observer,” I too stumbled upon this blog when I Googled OH (as you call it) because I am moving to that area soon. Wondering what the area was like, what it looked like, what type of recreation was there, etc….I then learned about the FoF group from this blog.
At first, it scared the bejesus outta me. I’m a skeered of cults!! Plus I have children and the whole RB pervert thing really made me think twice about relocating to this area.
Then I read more & more. Wow what a fascinating education. I have no idea what Fourth Way thinking is all about (even as I try to understand your writings, I must be too…..stupid?……to understand it) But that’s cool because, as a recovering Catholic, I’m not into groups anyway. Any how…..as I was saying, what a fantastic education. Some of you are brilliantly funny and I have learned a thing or two from the blog about the area.
So, when I visited the area a few weeks ago to find a place to live, I actually entered a “fellowship” house. Not knowing at first. But with all the googling I’ve done and the autographed photo of RB on the table in the living room, it was pretty obvious. I got freaked out and well needless to say, I won’t be living THERE!
By posting here today, I wanted to say thanks to you brave people who’ve left the group ~~ maybe our paths will cross someday if you’re still in the area. Since I will know no one when I move there in a few months, I look forward to making new friends. Until then I look forward to reading your insightful and sometimes hilarious posts (especially Bruce & a former student <—- that last post made me spit Dr. Pepper all over the computer screen) Thanks …..sticky keys…LOL
Observer (178), I’m impressed with how quickly you’ve been able to develop a sense for Fellowship-ese:
• strong connection to FoF
• have been able to understand that FoF was a Fourth Way school
• Ouspensky and Gurdjieff were the philosphers upon whom much of the initial ideas of the school were based
• philosophical underpinnings of the Fourth Way
• I don’t really wish to…
• would make the main ideas clearer
• substantial understanding
• inspiring and fascinating
• it is interesting to ponder
• gossip
• etc.
Una amio writes”Thank you both, again, for your very clear messages as to what you need from your friends; complete obedience within the framework of formatory argument; any attempt to reconcile both sides, bringing to light neither a winner or a loser is seen as a threat…
I understand this and wish you both well.”
Get off it, your such a victim here.
a socratic type of argument is a viable means of discussion. Especially on the blog. It is normal debating position to take a side and develop it. It is left to the reader or listener to process the information. I do not imagine I’m right and it does not matter that’s not the point. The point is to ask questions and challange assumptions. In this case what is brought up are meaningful questions. Is the sysetm objective knowledge? Is self remembering possible? Is the system an ideology inherently heirarchical? These are actuall primary questions for the blog and central to the discussion.
gullible fools tricked by a charismatic fraud into devoting their precious magnetic centers to building his shrine , his temple to his divinity
*********************
You’ve got the old queen of clubs going at full chub today don’t you?
Here’s what happened, when I first posted to the blog under the handle The King of Clubs you could click on the name tag on the post and connect to my website, Scott did that and upon discovering my identity he responded to a post of mine on the blog by inviting me to join his Stillpoint discussion list. I had a look over there found the discussion idiotic and then un-subscribed. Then Scott, good naturedly, requested a friends link with me on the Greater Fellowship site and I refused his request mainly because his picture looks like a post office wanted poster for a serial killer, but also because the weirdo has some kind of competitive obsession toward me that is constantly eating at him. He requested again, I refused again for the above reasons. All this added up to one serious narcissistic injury, thus the sudden sociopathic intensity-level outbursts. The negative zeal is that of a lunatic and contributes to rendering this space unusable for anything meaningful and for my part in that I apologize. I attracted this energy and am no innocent bystander. It’s nothing I don’t deserve due to plenty of bad karma on my part and it is nothing I can’t absorb and smile about.
“Graduates” is someone who calls himself “Gregory Goodwin”, has a website called “Graduates of the Fellowship” and is a self-described “Man number five”?
Did I get this right?
If so, can I assume he’s hoping for a few followers?
Regarding Greg’s Aphorisms, I’m not ‘taking sides’, but offering an observation.
The great thing about Greg’s thoughts, as they are, on the Web, is that you can take them or leave them. I’ve had a brief look at some of the aphorisms, and will look at them all. So far, some of them resonate, some of them are not clear to me, and some seem quite subjective. I can choose, or use, any of them, as I like. I assume Greg is sincere, and is offering a sincere gift, and I thank him; it must have taken a tremendous effort on his part. There is no reason, if some of his writing resonates, why I cannot slip (temporarily) into the role of student, and learn something of value to me at my level of being in my present state, and if I do, there is no obligation to continue. I can also came back at another time and state, and see if there is something more to learn from that different viewpoint. Whatever, I can try to be grateful, and thank him, and I do. Thanks, Greg!
In contrast I offer something which demands a much higher payment. We know the value Burton places on these thoughts (“priceless”), and the huge payments required to receive these—some of ‘his’ finest creations. I leave to your judgment which offerings (and which mode of presentation) provide the greater value.
With love to all, ‘in’ and ‘out,
Ames
_____________________________________
THOUGHTS FROM THE TEACHER
“Notes from Egypt”
Isis, April 30, 2006 Volume 5 – Number 27
When all of a sudden you rise to presence and do the sequence, you see everything is asleep.
Rabia said, “O Lord, take away the words of the devil that mix with my prayer.”
Last night after sunset, you could hear the donkeys’ braying mixed in with the call to prayer.
The donkey has such a harsh braying sound because he has nothing to say in relation to the sequence.
To create an account with itself, the lower self will intone Back louder in order to break an even intonation.
One must watch for gesticulation in the moving center while talking. In such cases, the moving center tries to do the work of the intellectual center, which results in considerable unnecessary movement.
External consideration during the sequence is not virtuous; it is a trick from the lower self.
I recently opened a book of Petrarch’s letters and after one sentence realised that this was not right. Although the sentence presented a noble thought, Petrarch did not know the sequence.
Observing the quietness of students at the reception, I was grateful for the wit exercise. The seven of hearts is the number one servant of the lower self.
It comes down to the six Work ‘I’s, being careful with the 4th one and repeating the sequence.
The work ‘I’s are miracle workers, engaging miraculous presence.
Only if one is definite upon reaching long Be and intones it accordingly does it last.
The Egyptian school chose to use embalming and mummification because everything takes place in the second state, even the steward and the work ‘I’s.
The treasures have left the tomb, but more importantly, the treasures of information remain intact.
Thoth recording signifies engaging presence; each work ‘I’ leaves a trace.
It might seem to be interesting work for an archaeologist to re-assemble a temple, but it is really the wrong focus. People are their lower selves.
The only way to understand these things is not to want to be right, but to want to get it right.
In all religions, the outer meaning destroys people.
Schools are always aware of what they have and life is never aware of what it lacks.
With the meetings the further you go on the subject, the more you understand — wonderfully simple.
We rule the waves of imagination with this system.
We are fortunate to have the privilege of making the payment to receive the keys.
It becomes increasingly clear that it is all one testament. Usually each school reaches out only to the school before it, whereas we are being allowed access to all schools.
To us in schools, everything is whispering Be.
Toast given on April 20, 2006, during dinner at Luxor:
The Egyptian Texts say, “It has come happily to an end.” Let us toast to work ‘I’ number six, engaging prolonged presence.
Copyright 2006 Fellowship of Friends.
____________________________________________
Note: I have copied the above, for discussion only, under the laws and doctrine of Fair Use, and acknowledge ownership by the Fellowship of Friends.
That camel herder you told about “Self-remembering” wasn’t the “Baleful Bedouin of Baloney” was he? He should be near by. We are half way out into the desert.
”Thank you both, again, for your very clear messages as to what you need from your friends; complete obedience within the framework of formatory argument; any attempt to reconcile both sides, bringing to light neither a winner or a loser is seen as a threat…”
I believe the term for this rhetorical technique is whiny passive aggression.
“When the King of Hearts in Alice in Wonderland tries to calm the Mad Hatter’s hysteria by saying, “don’t be nervous or I’ll have you executed on the spot,” the warning could easily have emerged from the lips of a passive-aggressive man. “Yes, no!” “Stop, go!” “I never lie, I was just protecting you from the truth!” What does he mean? The King of Hearts and most passive-aggressive men share the maddening characteristic of never saying exactly what they mean.
. . . .
Problems arise with the passive-aggressive man because of his fatal flaw: an indirect and inappropriate way of expressing hostility hidden under the guise of innocence, generosity or passivity. If what he says or does confuses you, or, more likely, angers you, this is why. You’re not the only one to react this way. It’s what passive-aggression is all about.
from Living With the Passive-Aggressive Man by Scott Wetzler:
Truthfully, I didn’t even know that I needed to express myself about these issues until the opportunity arose. I have found that communicating here allows me to learn more about why I was compelled to join.
Perhaps most of all, one can forgive oneself by reading and writing here.
Through the years, I have only had one person (who escaped the school alongside me), with whom to laugh raucously about our experience.
Well, I do know one other very pithy current member who has, without challenging me, continued to work with me in the creative field, despite my departure. This only surprised me at first until I realized that he has a secret, but very good sense of humor and a private sense of relativity to piety, despite his extraordinarily deep involvement, which is rooted in a noble attempt to manage alcoholism. We never talk about the school.
Another person, who was secondarily responsible for my induction (the pithy member was the first influence), and with whom I was extraordinarily close, played an impotent, but nasty joke on me when I left. It appeared that he needed to rub my face in whatever it was that he would be rubbing my face in. He was so angry with me. He pursued and visited me several years later and ended up playing out yet another attempt at insult on a very base level.
I wonder if he’s still in. His wild, wonderful, talented spirit was (is?) tamped deeply down by his adherence to the crazy school.
LOS ANGELES — Cardinal Roger Mahony, leader of the nation’s largest Roman Catholic archdiocese, apologized Sunday to the hundreds of people who will get a share of a $660 million settlement over allegations of clergy sex abuse.
“It appeared that he needed to rub my face in whatever it was that he would be rubbing my face in. He was so angry with me. He pursued and visited me several years later and ended up playing out yet another attempt at insult on a very base level.”
___________________
Thank you for writing this; it’s (beyond coincidence) arrival and placement in the blog order of posts “hit the bull’s eye”.
Yes, nearly any sort of information can be seen as truth on one level, particularly when applied to the ‘truth-finders’ own uncanny ability to demonstrate it’s talent of hiding it’s own faults and humanness with clinical dialog and cold hearted stealth precision in its attempt at castrating the soul…
I have linked this strange desire to ‘castrate’ to a very old teenage blockage, usually having started in most of it’s ‘clients’ from their first and only failed attempt at bowling;
a mainly American ’sport’ where the ’sport’ gesticulates certain ‘ritualistic looking’ body language to then ‘let fly’ a heavy ball, usually containing ‘three holes’; this (unbeknown to the players) having originated from a game medieval monks would play with the skulls of the plagues deceased, i.e., two eye holes and the nose cavity; knocking down empty bottles of their brotherhoods ‘favorite wine’.
It must be kept in mind that the original ‘bowling game’ took place in a long corridor WITHOUT GUTTERS, very late at night and by candlelight, usually accompanied by those stomachs who had consumed said “empty bottles of wine”.
Now, having “no gutters” is ‘key’ here, for the ‘ball’ or ‘oddly rolling skull’ had no chance of missing its aimed for target; thus the gamer always hit something due to the skull bouncing off the side walls, resulting in absolutely no disappointments within the context of both their will to hit all the bottles and the ‘objective fact’ that the skull never really traveled the same path no matter how you rolled it, unless of course you threw it, though this was only allowed as a finishing gesture at the games end and by the Friar.
So, Laughing Love, as you know, all conscious ‘forms’ descend, hence, the ‘gutter ball’ scenario of today;
whereas, eventually, too many gutter balls results in the subconscious wish that all balls would just ‘go home’ to where they came from or simply ‘roll away’ someplace else, where ever it is that balls go to die, similar to elephants.
This, as the Fellowship of Friends would have it, ‘B Influence addition’ (not unlike their sequence and thirty work I’s) of the ‘gutter’ to the bowling ‘alley’ could serve as pithy material for a Doctorate thesis for a newly, sponged from the kitchen sink, psychological analyzer;
whose strange concoction of nerves of steel, a ‘good’ excuse for everything and text book quotes as referential to everything but their own being experience, has brought into the world, in this era of 2007, the curiously perplexing desire to roll TWO balls at once down a single, mirror polished lane, thus doubling the very recent pathological condition’s ‘already pretty tough to get out of nature’, which asserts the automatic, subconscious wish that there be ‘no balls’ at all and that ’sports’ should simply celebrate the possibilities of ‘goals’ and take no chances at seeing themselves as spritzy beings intimently connected to chance and the love of the dance.
first an excerpt from an earlier post of mine
“if self remembering is possible” then can you explain it to someone who cannot experience it? The answer is no. This is all that separates man #4 from man #1,#2 and #3.”
_______________
A former student, where do you get this stuff?
The answer is never ‘no’… I myself have proven this, albeit to myself, yet, I cannot believe we are different species from other planets (yet);
while traveling in the East, I, during a brief meeting with a certain ‘camel driver’ introduced him to self remembering; I have no idea what he ever did with ‘the spark’, yet, I am certain that ‘he got it’ and burned with it in my presence;
This is really not well thought out. I did not write you cannot explain self remembering to someone who never heard of it but to someone who does not have the ability to experience it.
The more you try the more confusing it becomes. I know this from my own experience. It was something that both Rodney Collin and Ouspensky wrote about.
in another exchange you take this excerpt
108 ~ ‘a former student’ wrote ~
“This is an if question “if the system is objective knowledge” what then? Is there any test? Only self remembering. But here is the Key , again an if question “if self remembering is possible” then can you explain it to someone who cannot experience it? The answer is no. This is all that separates man #4 from man #1,#2 and #3.”
_____________________
Try this ~ “If I am objective knowing, what then?”
Self remembering is not a test, it’s passing and moving on, out of the classroom; getting off your test-taking-butt and living more than ‘just a little’.
What is your problem. It is a very simple question. The theory is that the system is objective knowledge the test is self remembering.
The idea is that only you can answer this question. What in your brain does not allow you to be simple?
The opposition in the interchange with VP is positive because it is one of the ways the intellectual center works. This is a fact and your obtuse enough to argue it which proves it but you can’t see it. Your so confident of you profound insights that it does not occur to you that your missing a lot of what’s happening because your imagination about your consciousness is blocking the view.
There is a lot of positive material in your post’s and I encourage you to keep it up. I just wish you condense your writing so it is not as painful to read ( because of my damaged eyesight due to diabetes)
on 17 Jul 2007 at 12:02 am
201 Graduates wrote
Here’s what happened, when I first posted to the blog under the handle The King of Clubs you could click on the name tag on the post and connect to my website, Scott did that and upon discovering my identity he responded to a post of mine on the blog by inviting me to join his Stillpoint discussion list. I had a look over there found the discussion idiotic and then un-subscribed.
This is false Greg. I did not know “The King of Clubs was you. I posted a link to Stillpoint in many of my early posts. You joined under a false name ( because you have been banned on Stillpoint for years) refused to perform the difficult entrance exam which is to say Hello and what you want and left. You then started insulting me on the blog.
Greg -reality check- if Stillpoint was lacking-which it certainly is- than why didn’t you contribute something positive?
Ames points out that there is some valuable material in your aphorism’s I disagree. They are bullshit because they are not real. You don’t do what you write. Now maybe Ames, who usually seems sincere would actually try and be the words. That is a big difference.
you write
“Scott, good naturally, requested a friends link with me on the Greater Fellowship site and I refused his request mainly because his picture looks like a post office wanted poster for a serial killer, but also because the weirdo has some kind of competitive obsession toward me”
Greg your an arrogant Ass. I requested a lot of friends if you refused your a fool. I joined your group called rude argument but couldn’t get a reasonable argument going. Now you cannot restrain yourself you have to use personal insults. Do you have any idea how petty you seem? How really, really stupid it is to write.
“The solitary truth is that a man needs to transform all of his life and then radiate the resultant fine emotion into the lives of others.”
Then whine about how “the weirdo has some kind of competitive obsession toward me that is constantly eating at him.”
It is not competitive Greg. It is target practice and you haven’t figured out your the target. It does not take a lot to make you contradict yourself. It amusing to see you foam at the mouth.
“The negative zeal is that of a lunatic and contributes to rendering this space unusable for anything meaningful and for my part in that I apologize.”
There are meaningful exchanges Greg your just not part of them.
“To stab them with the truth with foreknowledge that it will injure is more deceptive than outright lies.”
211 unoanimo
Just what we needed. The rap was bad, I go to a place called “The Starry Plough” in Berkeley where they have a regular poetry slam, doncheck out what’s happening in the real world, the “Finnegans wake” imitation dreary and now this imitation Gurdjieff is there a real you? Behind these walls of words which do more to hide than reveal is there any core of truth?
on 15 Jul 2007 at 9:28 pm
131 Simple Truth wrote
Bruce, Why are you insulting, if I only Wrote Thoughts of Counscious Men.
you can not see? that all that i wrote is more valuable than the stuff and insults that live in you.
to isult is mechanical, have you verify this? or you not are interested on work over yourself?
This is true Fellowship programming. Don’t be real, don’t express yourself, calm yourself with others thoughts.
You add little to the dialogue. Bruce adds one human being expressing their own truth and that really the best any one has to offer.
And don’t presume to judge my or anyone elses work by externals. Inner work is inner. Read the new testement if your into quotes. It is Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Freinds corrupt teachjing that stresses externals, that justify’s and supportes this habit of judging externals. You don’t need an esoteric school for this any Church is the same.
on 17 Jul 2007 at 12:22 am
204 Graduates
Laughing Love 202
a self-described “Man number five”?
***********
Incorrect. I don’t claim such a thing, this is an envious projection by one of my critics.
It almost enobles you that you have critics.
You have claimed it Greg. You imply it in your presentation of infomation as coming from a higher mind-you.
You won’t claim it here because no one would believe it. You get that Gregory no one believes it.
“Men hardly realize how many gaps there are in their understanding until they try to explain their understanding to others and are carefully questioned concerning the details.”
Let us see Gregory how you respond to questions regarding your understanding.
That’s right, I am a retarded fool, an alcoholic, addict, mentally ill and jealous and competitive?
You need to learn to be the words Gregory.
As Gurdjieff said to Ouspensky “if you understood what you have written I would come to you as a student”.
If you Gregory Goodwin could be what you write I would come to you with respect and an eagerness to learn. you don’t , I don’t, as you said you don’t have good Karma.
160 Another Name
Dear Former student and all others.
I am so glad you, do not show anything in your writings of a stimulus response reaction. A true example of being above the stimulus response.
Thanks and enjoy your day fully.
Sit still for a moment and enjoy your own compagny.
What you see in others is also in your selfs brothers…
The arrogance of this is so typical of the type of thinking that is indoctrinated into members of the fellowship of Friends. Expressing your self is mechanical. Imitating Roberts conscious acts is real, Get this-the mechanics never go away and conscious acts are just acts. I had Roberts acts down pat. Even his Gucci shoes to wear and a Hermes tie hey now that consciousness. I was dressed for success and ready to go.
We have different roles. I applied for and accepted the job as gadfly on the blog. Socrates was always my hero. There are other voices. Ames is reasonable takes the time to articulate his veiws, Joel does a good job at tolorance and even a bit of repentence, Bruce still works that rebel without a clue to death and is a fairly sharp spotter of BS. Greg Goodwin is the fool he shows that words without being are worse than being without words. Bass Ackwards does a nice insight and thoughtful consideration. Uno animo does an excellent “look in my head see the uncontrolled flow of associations”. All parts of a larger whole. A whole that is discouraged in the Fellowship. It rather than the rigid imitation of conscious acts reflects individuality, consciousness, conscience and will.
I want to model individuality and the opposite of Fellowship think which is to maintain the facade of being awake at all costs. To not act mechanical what crap. I want to model being cranky, unreasonable, contradictory, opinionated and self rightous in other words human. I think that Fellowship members have a stick up their ass that makes them do little puppet dances of Fellowship acts. If you need it you now have permission to stop.
I merely take what works for me. This blog is not King of Diamonds or King of Hearts material. I work very much from my Queen of Hearts. That is good , it is good to be passionate , the queen is not rational or moderate.
Even if it does not seem true I restrain my self quite a bit when I read a lot of the sanctimonious BS that more recently departed members have to say. I’ve had 25 years to process my experiences. I really believe that its important to get over trying to be what ever you imagibe a more conscious being or good student should be and be yourself. ain’t that the aim to become real? One?
I have had layer after layer of illusion stripped away. If you have not done the work, lived through the suffering and had to over and over face your own self then you don’t know much that is real. Neither You nor anyone else who hasn’t been through “the dark night of the soul” can judge anything about the emotional intensity needed to produce real transformational experiences.
The problem with Gregory Goodwins aphorism’s is they are written by someone who imagines they are awake, a unity and has the power to do. Theyu are a typical Fellowship of Friends imitation of Robert Burton.
They are not much use to man #4
Here is a few aphorisms for man #4
Only when your own sleep and mechanicality becomes emotionaly irritating enough to you will you begin to awaken
and a corrolary
the only shock consistant enough to help us awaken on a moment to moment basis is our own sleep
you cannot be in denial about any part of yourself and grow more conscious
you don’t have to be nice to people if you help even one be a little more awake thats enough
It is difficult to help someone who doesn’t know they need it
truth without compassion is harsh and unforgiving. Compassion is self remembering, remember you do the same things you see in others
So to anyone who may have waded through this son of a blog take these aphorisms as a gift, see if they are of any use. They are part of my truth.
In closing a quote from Walt my favorite poet and favorite poem “Crossing the Brooklyn Ferry”
I too had receiv’d identity by my Body;
That I was, I knew was of my body—and what I should be, I knew I should be of my body.
7
It is not upon you alone the dark patches fall,
The dark threw patches down upon me also;
The best I had done seem’d to me blank and suspicious; 70
My great thoughts, as I supposed them, were they not in reality meagre? would not people laugh at me?
It is not you alone who know what it is to be evil;
I am he who knew what it was to be evil;
I too knitted the old knot of contrariety,
Blabb’d, blush’d, resented, lied, stole, grudg’d, 75
Had guile, anger, lust, hot wishes I dared not speak,
Was wayward, vain, greedy, shallow, sly, cowardly, malignant;
The wolf, the snake, the hog, not wanting in me,
The cheating look, the frivolous word, the adulterous wish, not wanting,
Refusals, hates, postponements, meanness, laziness, none of these wanting. 80 …………………………………………
8Closer yet I approach you;
What thought you have of me, I had as much of you—I laid in my stores in advance; 90
I consider’d long and seriously of you before you were born.
Who was to know what should come home to me?
Who knows but I am enjoying this?
Who knows but I am as good as looking at you now, for all you cannot see me?
As you may have noticed, grammatically, Simple Truth is not a native English speaker. So, that poster will have difficulty expressing their own personal understanding in their own words – perhaps because he or she is busy absorbing what he or she considers to be a Conscious Teaching that is delivered in an English that he or she could still struggling to understand? Time is a factor…
OK, OK, a big Kahuna, or a very ripe mangoe would not respond formatorily, even in a foreign language. But then again, if I were a ripe mangoe, I’d rather just fall and merge with that luscious earth than challenge some silly characters on a computer screen.
Consider that “spiritual seeking” & the desire for enlightenment is other than what we imagine it to be. We imbue specific actions and feelings with a legitimacy & authenticity that may belie the reality. We enoble some weak or abberrant aspect of ourselves by creating an entire mythology: the myth of awakening & “work on oneself”.
The FOF (like many groups) springs up to cater to our needs – as defined by self-serving, limiting definitions of our inner experiences.
I thought it worth repeating what the Sheik posted much earlier. The following excerpt (from John Welwood) is completely unreadable and unacceptable to people who are not ready to question the basis of their own behavior – but for those that are approaching readiness…
“…I began to perceive a disturbing tendency among many members of spiritual communities. Although many spiritual practitioners were doing good work on themselves, I noticed a widespread tendency to use spiritual practice to bypass or avoid dealing with certain personal or emotional ‘unfinished business’. This desire to find release from the earthly structures that seem to entrap us-the structures of karma, conditioning, body, form, matter, personality-has been a central motive in the spiritual search for thousands of years. So there is often a tendency to use spiritual practice to try to rise above our emotional and personal issues-all those messy, unresolved matters that weigh us down. I call this tendency to avoid or prematurely transcend basic human needs, feelings, and developmental tasks spiritual bypassing.
Spiritual bypassing is particularly tempting for people who are having difficulty navigating life’s developmental challenges, especially in a time and culture like ours, where what were once ordinary landmarks of adulthood-earning a livelihood through dignified work, raising a family, keeping a marriage together, belonging to a meaningful community-have become increasingly elusive for large segments of the population. While still struggling to find themselves, many people are introduced to spiritual teachings and practices that urge them to give themselves up. As a result, they wind up using spiritual practices to create a new ’spiritual’ identity, which is actually an old dysfunctional identity-based on avoidance of unresolved psychological issues-repackaged in a new guise.
In this way, involvement in spiritual teachings and practices can become a way to rationalize and reinforce old defences. For example, those who need to see themselves as special will often emphasize the specialness of their spiritual insight and practice, or their special relationship to their teacher, to shore up a sense of self-importance. Many of the ‘perils of the path’-such as spiritual materialism (using spiritual ideas for personal gain), narcissism, inflation (delusions of grandiosity), or groupthink (uncritical acceptance of group ideology)-result from trying to use spirituality to shore up developmental deficiencies. — John Welwood”
Gary Lachman. In Search of P. D. Ouspensky: The Genius in the Shadow of Gurdjieff. Wheaton, Ill.: Quest Books, 2004. Hardcover, 329 pages, US $24.95.
“The Ouspensky emerging from Lachman’s treatment is an individual who early in life was an old soul who saw through conventional life and had glimpses of the “miraculous” reality hidden from the view of ordinary folk; who was fascinated with biology as a child but was bored with regular schooling and later disliked and avoided academia; who, as an adult, found women more interesting than men and treated them with chivalry (unlike Gurdjieff); who was fascinated with dreams and was an inveterate lucid dreamer; who had an experience of “cosmic consciousness” prior to meeting Gurdjieff; who went to India in search of spiritual awakening but returned empty handed only to attach himself to Gurdjieff; who was an authoritarian but also self-divided, lonely, and often dour individual; who was naturally reticent and impersonal who, as the years went by, would stay up half the night drinking.
“After spending several years in the United States, Ouspensky returned to England in 1947—a sick and apparently broken man who, when asked whether he had abandoned “the System” replied: “There is no System.”
Now, just what would it mean to hold one’s ‘peace’ at times like these?
I love all that you say, the way that you say it and all that is behind it; even when a little balsamic comes my way. Ahhhh, in fact, I don’t mind at all, especially if it’s the kind from Modena that’s aged in oak barrels like they serve at The French Laundry. …Thick, full bodied, aromatic, a little woody…
For what it’s worth, I can actually remember attending a meeting where the topic was ‘ The four obstacles to self-remembering’ of course leaving out ‘lying’. Who and where is not so clear, though.
“It is a very simple question. The theory is that the system is objective knowledge the test is self remembering.” Scott
Hi Scott, getting back to the discussion… What are you calling self remembering? Divided attention? Being present? Awareness? Individual awareness? Individual conscience? Collective consciousness? Collective conscience?
Then –is there only ONE test? Are we all supposed to agree on that?
—————-
You say “Do you have any idea how petty you seem? How really, really stupid it is to write”
I don’t know what your beef is and I don’t want to follow the long convoluted list of accounts you have in your emotional bank. But I thought this was really wonderful:
by Greg- “truth without compassion is harsh and unforgiving. Compassion is self remembering, remember you do the same things you see in others”
————–
“The Mona Lisa is a great example. A couple of bucks worth of canvas, paint and wood yet through some magic it conveys some incredible energies of a higher order.” Scott
There is a good book called “Becoming Mona Lisa” that is very enlightening. You might enjoy reading it. I heartily disagree with your above sentence and it sounds like you are just repeating something and have not considered that painting.
——————–
“Also as a beginner ask more talk less listen more.”chopsticks
Nonsense – besides, Observer is not a beginner
——————–
New Kid in Town
“So, when I visited the area a few weeks ago to find a place to live, I actually entered a “fellowship” house. Not knowing at first. But with all the googling I’ve done and the autographed photo of RB on the table in the living room, it was pretty obvious. I got freaked out and well needless to say, I won’t be living THERE!”
hahaha! Please keep us posted…
Jack Handy “I hope in the future Americans are thought of as a warlike, vicious people, because I bet a lot of hight schools would pick “Americans” as their mascot.”
I don’t recognize the truth of the man numbers. And even if I did I would not give a god-damn. I’m much more inclined to the bodhisattva model. If a person finds a magic portal then check it out and hold the door open for all to enter before you.
And besides, I’m sick of all the ‘man’ stuff. I would rather hear the evolution of woman. “say, do you really think you are a woman # 5 or are you #6?” or, “that city is filled with women #1 thru #3″ Try it. Just change the gender for awhile and see what happens.
“New Kid in Town” – keep in mind that the house you looked at might be rented – the owner(s) might have left the Fellowship and would dearly love to sell, and cannot control what the renters display in the house. Or are you talking about some sort of residual karmic energy that you would not want to live with if you bought the house?
Sharon – 231
Yeah weird karmic energy was in that house. I don’t want to be judgmental at all ~~ I just didn’t feel comfortable. And then there was this overpowering weird smell that I just couldn’t place. Nice house though and I wish the sellers all the luck in the world, it’s so very hard to sell homes these days.
I found another house in the area, so it’s all good. I cannot wait to live in that beautiful, beautiful area surrounded by oaks and pines……My spirit will be renewed and my life will begin anew, I think. I just want so badly to get out of this rat race and find some peace & quiet & deer strolling by…..
What music do you all currently listen to? No pun intended but have you heard “Brian Jonestown Massacre?” Some of the best music I’ve ever heard (besides my old favs ~ Jimi & Janis + the Band + Zep, etc etc etc) I was born in the wrong decade ~~ could have been a Flower Child, but am in spirit, I guess.
I joined your group called rude argument but couldn’t get a reasonable argument going.
*************************
There is a difference between indulging in a rude argument, which can be rather interesting if it includes the requisite level of intelligence and creative self-control, and a crass argument. A crass argument is pointless because the lack of intelligence is such that no instruction can be taken from it. In your case here is the actual situation, most likely: you’ve smoked some pot, you get on the internet driven by the brainless impulse to draw attention to yourself under the mistaken belief that you are a misunderstood mastermind, then you jabber on guided by the most basic form of FoF indoctrination, convinced that as long as you stick by what you were told you are winning debates, securing friends and storing up measured quantities of narcissistic supply. “Narcissistic supply,” that means you are feeding the self-esteem of a defensive personality within yourself that has developed in order to over compensate for the fact that underneath it all you feel inferior and worthless. Some people carry on this process in a very entertaining and intelligent fashion, they write famous novels, produce brilliant acting careers, become powerful politicians, but most end up sad, pathetic and belligerent sagging human rags sitting all night on a stool at the end of the bar trying to pick fights with people that could beat the hell out them if they didn’t feel so much pity. There is nothing more obviously a lie than a rather unintelligent man convincing himself that he is actually so intelligent that no one else gets it, it is the perfect buffer. The reason such people often go to so much trouble insisting publicly that everyone else recognize and acknowledge that it isn’t a lie but a reality is because without the outside recognition, without the approval and the reassurance then the inner emptiness begins to creep back up over the mouth, over the nose and the eyes to drown the man in the mediocre truth about himself.
Do you apprehend that to many here your above statement is a perfect example of how you appear to others most of the time?
When reading your aphorisms what struck me the most was how transparently they reflected much of what you show to other people, while intimating that you were detached from what you were describing.
As our opinions are subjective (as Ames is able to glean useful info from your aphorisms), personally I found them vacuous, misogynistic and narcissistic.
You wrote to me allot and to ignore someone who’s resisting my attempts to answer them in my own way, would be easy and ‘normal’ protocol for the ‘good student’;
Robert Burton has been doing that to ‘difficult students’ for 37+ years, booting them out and having them pay to get back in, if he allows it and still doesn’t have an account (grudge) towards them;
though I sense you and I can be (and are) more than that, far more;
the blog is at times a poor-tool to use, particularly when there’s such ‘touchy’ stuff going on: you seem pretty pissed off about something else, not people posting here on the blog, do you live in Oregon House? Maybe an eye to eye meeting is what we need, who knows; perhaps there is no ‘we’ desire on your part; let me know (?)
Naturally on the blog there is an assumption that one can just ‘jump in’ and join the private conversations of others; this ‘assumption’ I can certainly be held liable for and often stretch it to it’s snapping point:
yet, so far, the rewards are greater than the risks and I continue posting here for it’s a sort of muse for me, even when the muses are screaming through dry underbrush on fire… (I am not referring to you specifically BTW)…
I would be glad to have a dialog with you and wish to remain open to you, if that’s your wish…
We draw lines in the sand all the time, particularly when we have profound judgment calls of others spontaneous ‘natures’;
Just for the record, the only line from Veronique’s post that really interested ‘all of me’ was this one,
“And that entirely private thing I find valuable. But I doubt I could really explain it to anyone.”
which simply fell in between the cracks somehow, through the flurry of the far too obvious fuel for Socratic dialog, which, I hope I have the good freedom here on the blog to say,
that I am in no way interested in having ‘personally’;
it’s a form, having spent 7 years in 1 college and 2 Universities, that I’ve just worn the soles down to my bare feet with (not unlike Fred Flintstones automotive brakes);
and too, knowing that 9 out of 10 times it simply leads right back to itself and more of the same dialog (for me that is);
I began experimenting with a different sort of dialog some 10 years ago and find it more ’rounded’ and ‘expressive’ (for me) and I am trying to develop that, not to say that the Socratic form is not one of my cousins, I simply have moved away from being its ‘kissing cousin’.
Apart from your “imitation Gurdjieff” label of my monk-bowling story… How did you like the story itself?
I had allot of fun writing it and having the possibility to share it here on the blog.
I remember having a whole bunch of severe and fatalistic opinions about a really big, kinda simple looking guy in high school; till we befriended one another one afternoon.
See, I knew his name and had made eye contact several times, so he sorta knew me too…
Some guys were playing ‘bully me day’ with ‘your’s truly’, after lunch had ended and had me pinned in a corner,
I saw this ’simple looking guy’ and called out his name, asking him if he could come over and help me find out what it was that these guys needed.
Now, this ‘big guy’ was not your normal ‘football player’;
he was very quiet, shy, light on his feet, smiled allot and possessed not one drop of false personality (acting); just a big ‘farm boy’, as we called them in those days;
standing in at 6 foot 8, weighing in at least 300 lbs made him a rather unavoidable ‘Rosetta stone’ in the hallways of ‘the many tongues’… (with shoulders that measured at least 32 inches across or more)…
when he came over and simply stood by me and said “Yeah, _____________, how are you doing?” The bullies simply dissolved; I recorded this simple guys incredible aura of absolute objective presence…
not one threatening word came from his mouth,yet, there issued from him a sort of ‘I am-ness’, a kind of ‘you know that I know that you know I’ll eat you for lunch’ readiness and ease…
I’ll never forget those sorts of spirits; I still get goosebumps recalling them… and continued to this day to meet them all over the place, simple giants that simply do what they do and are nearly always open 25 hours a day to wonder over and apply their quiet presence to the possibility of a formidable, chaotic set of circumstances.
There is a certain kind of ‘magic’ in eye to eye contact, that we certainly, on this blog, often do not acknowledge it’s value, so far as when we can have it, that is… Yet words can ‘look’ too; certain ‘kinds’ of words.
BTW, just a quick ‘personal’ question, please do not take this as me crossing the line, it is an honest question that I would like to have an understanding of its answer for me and me only…
for a person that needs to have things condensed and shortened, you write allot here on the blog and lengthy at times, how is that? How is reading what you write different than that of others who have written? Curious…
_______________________________
Do you apprehend that to many here your above statement is a perfect example of how you appear to others most of the time?
When reading your aphorisms what struck me the most was how transparently they reflected much of what you show to other people, while intimating that you were detached from what you were describing.
As our opinions are subjective (as Ames is able to glean useful info from your aphorisms), personally I found them vacuous, misogynistic and narcissistic.
**************
The difference between other people and you, Bruce, is that most others are not so phony that my phoniness threatens them. That’s why few of them even bother to comment. This is your problem, my phoniness is an affront to your phoniness.
“The difference between other people and you, Bruce, is that most others are not so phony that my phoniness threatens them. That’s why few of them even bother to comment.”
And here all this time I thought it was because most people didn’t find it worth it to call you out on your shit. Live and learn.
“I’ll never forget those sorts of spirits; I still get goosebumps recalling them… and continued to this day to meet them all over the place, simple giants that simply do what they do and are nearly always open 25 hours a day to wonder over and apply their quiet presence to the possibility of a formidable, chaotic set of circumstances”
Wow thank you for that.
Random acts of kindness that affect us profoundly and forever.
My abusive boyfriend once kicked me out of the car in the middle of nowhere. There was snow on the ground. I was wearing a dress. I was about 16-17 years old and alone and sobbing. I walked for what seemed like hours.
A car approached and I was terrified. The headlights grew closer, the car slowed down and stopped. I thought “Here it is, I’m gonna get abducted and killed.”
A voice came from the car and called out my name. WTF? Somehow in this vast universe, a misunderstood, geeky friend of mine from high school stopped his car in the middle of nowhere, calmed my fears and drove me at least 40 miles to my home.
Several years later, this same misunderstood, geeky guy was accused of all kinds of sexually criminal acts, which may or may not have been true. All I know is that he saved me that night and I’ll never forget it.
I have no way of knowing who “Observer” is, but I do know a person who was a schoolteacher in this area, a friend of a former member and I, but not a member her/himself.
Observer could be that person, and I find his/her posts credible and reasonable. This person has asked the very same questions of my friend and I in the past.
chopsticks, you advise Observer: “Also as a beginner ask more talk less listen more.”
What an arrogant, cultish attitude.
He IS asking! And listening and responding intelligently, furthering an interesting discussion.
Their was a Frank Lloyd Wright quote in the link in the last post. If anyone is interested in the connection between Gurdjieff and Wright, check out “The Fellowship–The Untold Story of Frank Lloyd Wright & The Taliesin Fellowship”. Wright’s second wife was a student of Gurdjieff’s.
I grew up in Dobbins which is the next town over by Oregon House, there is a lot of great people up in this area. My parents have been here for more than 43 years.
I was only a student in Fellowship for around six months a few years ago. I would much rather have students as neighbors instead of the doppers up here!!!!
FOF has a lot of GREAT PEOPLE there. They WILL NOT HARM YOU!
I went through http://zanymystic.tripod.com/id11.html.
what do you think is the fascinating tale…what is their to gain. I got really sad about this erson’ life. He seems still alive and probably I know him. What is the message according to you and what can we lear from this story?
Uno, I apologize for my harsh labeling of your response. I suspect what you wrote started out as something well meaning.
For future reference, the main thing that irritated me in your writing was its patronizing and omniescent tone, as though you “knew” that what was “missing from the dialogue was “love” and that my entirely private thing was a “key,” (“did you sense this?”) as though I probably missed its significance…all blithely stated in dreamy blank meter verse.
To state it affirmatively, please consider being more circumspect with your intuitions respecting a stranger. Presumptuousness concerning someone you don’t know is an inauspicious way to begin a friendship.
In fact I am actually open to talking about the thing which I would call “self remembering” (note absence of hyphen) if I were for some reason using the term. It has to do with memory generally and “self defining memories” in particular. It has to do with the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. They can change, and change to include more. That we have told ourselves a story about our lives does not commit us to that story. It can change and become truer as it includes more.
I had not seen that testimonial. Very interesting.
Alcohol is a very potent numbing element in the fellowship scene. I think it’s really important to emphasize this aspect. It is a dreamy, numbing aphrodisiac.
One of the last fellowship events I attended was a “wine tasting”. It started out in a civilized manner in which all pretended to be fascinated with the host’s obviously limited knowledge. He repeatedly used the term “tannin”, and it rapidly became apparent that it was the only term he knew.
We were NOT instructed to delicately sip/taste and spit it out. About 35 minutes into the sacred tasting, everyone was smashed and each time he uttered his favorite word, “tannin”, great peals of laughter rang out.
With lightning speed the “refined tasting” transformed into a bacchanalian evening in which any attempt to learn about wine was confined to drinking great loads of the stuff.
Upon our departure, each reeling and laughing, I remember the host (who had the demeanor of an undertaker) offering a reminder that an additional payment for a piece of statuary had been “requested”, which simply seemed absurd, especially because I’d just paid a pretty penny for the “wine tasting”.
Who knows what we were drinking. In my experience, truly fine wines have a different effect on one’s state. They do not create head aches, hangovers or hysteria.
With all due respect to those who post earnestly and thoughtfully, this blog has for me become a negative, reactive, and rather depressing hodge-podge.
I had hoped here to find intelligent and positive guidance for my personal process of leaving the school, but the pickings have been very slim, indeed. Perhaps I should have offered more of myself, but…
Thanks to those who did offer freely some valuable illumination and support! All the best to you!
I wish you all well, bloggers, in your various endeavors, but I am out of here, and ne’er shall post again.
I’m always amused by the vows to never post again. Why bother? You are here reading, posting, or not. After a few days, or weeks, you might check in again, you might post, it’s all good. No one will hold you to it. Remember the many “i’s”???
“To state it affirmatively, please consider being more circumspect with your intuitions respecting a stranger. Presumptuousness concerning someone you don’t know is an inauspicious way to begin a friendship.”
______________________________
Now, please don’t take this as sarcasm, I just need some clarity here; so, you’re saying that I was off the mark on that intuition thing? Although, I did ask BTW, yes? So, I was not entirely ’sure’… just sensing something.
What you say is a ’shock’, as FoF-speak would have it; because ever since I was about 7 or 8 years old I have never had an ounce of fear towards ’strangers’, I grew up pretty quick due to some pretty odd ‘Raising Arizona Triads’, had an very early magnetic center and a strong instinctive intuit device, sorta built into my astrological luggage I guess, for the intuitions simply arrived (happened), I did not force them, later, I began learning how to ‘model’ certain ‘things I sensed’ to be a bit less ’surprising’ and ‘trespassing-like’…
Yet, it still seems to happen, that truly Veronique, I just don’t have the equipment not to see everyone as un-armored and open to real curiosity, not to mention that something happened to me some time ago, something that changed how I perceive people and I simply cannot go backwards; yet, I can learn something from your response, that is for sure:
I’ve spoken to hundreds of ‘types’, from millionaires to ex-convicts (and a few that have not been caught yet)…
Although, I have yet to meet one that did not let me pick their bolted doors with real human inquiry, a sense of humor and openness; I carry around allot of impressions and stories that people have confided in me, it builds and refines something very passionate in me and I burn…
It’s tough; I thank you for the apology: yet I must say that your guidelines to enter a friendship with you are a bit on the defensive side and its subjective to say the least;
it does not happen with everyone, some simply say, ‘Hey, that’s not it, though, this is and spill the beans or often it’s just one bean… And Jack in the Beanstalk can tell you that one bean is pretty significant in the right context.
I like you tenacity, it truly fuels something in my love, it’s an aspect that is difficult to find in essence; usually it’s associated with being a triple active type or a lunatic, though (I sense) it feeds your heart…
Thank you again; misunderstandings and naiveté is hopefully everyone’s hobby; I certainly find myself whittling on the front porch at least twice a week.
________________________________
Hello ‘New Kid in Town’ ~ (242)
Thank you for sharing your story…
Not to worry about that “overpowering weird smell”, that’s just one of the 44+ poltergeists belonging to the Fellowship of Friends; they’re pretty friendly for the most part…
If you see or hear any weird stuff just break a bottle of Renaissance wine on the front and back porches, burn a few Bible concordances, that should take care of it; if not, give me a ring here on the blog, I’ve got some ‘heavyweights’ I can conjure up from the early Byzantine empire;
Yeah, My2bits, what ‘if memory serves’ said; after all you can always change your name…
And I think you’re absolutely right with your ‘intuition’ concerning
“Perhaps I should have offered more of myself, but…”
I recall that Rodney Collin said that it was the word “but” that kept us from moving in a certain direction…
It’s odd that you would wish to leave after having such an epiphany; it reminds me of people who would drop out of high school right in the middle of twelfth grade, that really freaked me out (after all, it created memory LOL)…
Welp… love to you and may the best man not win; if you know what I mean, aka, Ouspensky like.
___________________
From Michelangelo Buonarotti, better known as a sculptor:
You know that I know, my lord, that you know
that I draw close to take pleasure in you,
and you know that I know that you know who I am;
so why do you delay our acknowledging each other?
If true is the hope that you give to me,
if true is the great desire that I’ve been given,
let the wall between them be broken down,
for doubly violent are concealed woes.
If I only love in you, my dear lord,
that which you love in yourself, do not scorn
for one spirit has fallen in love with another.
That which I desire and learn from your beautiful face
is imperfectly comprehended by human minds:
who wishes to know it must first die.
I need to thank you personally, from the bottom of my heart.
When I entered the fof I was in many ways a damaged person and running away from that. Damaged by….who knows…an incomplete essence….basic stupidity…some really bad crap from childhood…not being able to deal with it….attracting situations that reflected that bad crap which could help me. It helped me to come to a rejection of the horridness of the ‘leader’ …the ‘teacher’ and the thinking that was pervasive. For me, it was a way into first escaping, and then addressing some (some) of that bad crap.
After I left the fof I was so ashamed of ever being associated with a group such as that. And, I moved to Oregon where the criminal group of Rashnish had been located who actually tried to poison neighbors at a salad bar. Gross. Horrible. In spades.
That shame stayed with me for a year, then two then …..then…..then…. Now it has been 22 years since I left and the shame had become like background muzak and I never even noticed it – just didn’t “”"”"”share”"”"”"” any of my life before moving here and being a ‘good person’. I was born just 17 and 1/2 years ago (hahahahahaha)
I wanted SO MUCH to be a ‘normal person’ (meaning I wanted to **feel** normal and good inside) and I have spent so much energy and time with it. That meant denying my real deep interests in these ideas and most of all, these folks —-this community. When I got connected with the noble Sheik’s blog – about two months ago – things started to unloose in me and frozen parts started to thaw. And, funny thing, it has been the ‘normal people’ like you both and all the wonderful breathing folks in my life who have shown me deep compassion. It is partly thru your accepting words that that I am able to start to not be ashamed of my life and of ever being in the fof. Thank you so much!
———–
to my2bits…just stay for a bit more…folks will calm down. Shit happens. I always really like your comments. This is an ocean of communication, there are rough seas, sharks, jagged rocks,…I could go on but… We are the surfers, and can ride over the waves.
Former Student and Bruce, you are very wrong.
I think you have not any Idea about that we are not one…
you can not see which part of you is taking the space.
you can not see that you call “own thought” really is the king of Clubs manipulating you without knowing.
Regarding the link in my post #246, I just came across that in searching for information for our “In Memoriam” forum.
It struck me as an unabashed, if a bit nostalgic, relating of the person’s excitement at meeting a “school”, the thrill of traveling to “heart of the school”, their perceptions of the teacher and inner circle at the time. I don’t know the identity of the author, nor when it was written. But I was struck by the honest portrayal (at times) of human weakness.
As Laughing Love implies, the promotion of alcohol in the school was probably more powerful than we would care to admit. It was wholeheartedly encouraged. (Of course, we were building a winery!)
I remember my first “Meissen Room” dinner with Robert, Thanksgiving Weekend 1974, I think. (In my journal I called it “dining at the Captain’s Table”.) Up to that point, I had rarely enjoyed alcoholic beverages. I mentioned to Robert that I really didn’t like wine. His response: “maybe non-existence doesn’t enjoy something so powerful.”
Perhaps I took that as a challenge to work on my “feature”. I’ve been connected with the wine industry for most of the past thirty-two years. (Most recently, I spent nine years with Robert Mondavi, one of the world’s foremost promoters of the beverage.)
But I’ve witnessed the impact its abuse has had on me, on my friends from the Fellowship, and on many others. Lately, really just since this blog began, I started to reflect on the role alcohol has played over the years, and decided it was time to curtail its use.
245 Cathie
251 my2bits
257 KA
Any community or philosophy that keeps alive such intense feelings and passions in people months and year after they have left it–cannot be all wrong. The depth of emotion that you all keep expressing, trading, and even fighting with shows that something was stirred so powerfully in all of your hearts that there must be a great deal of good inherent in the FoF experience. And yet, I am puzzled that any spiritual system that requires as much study and maturity doesn’t have at its heart–greater love and tolerance. When 194 Chopsticks entered his rather mean-spirited answer to my open-hearted question requesting the title of a book to read, it took a long time before one of your number called him on it. So, I can only assume you are all too used to people in the community being paranoid and mean-spirited that it does not even raise your eyebrows anymore.
To 251 my2bits I can see the temptation to stop reading and posting when the discussion degenerates to the crude or the personal. And yet, at the same time, how will the discussion ever move to a higher track if all the people with compassion and tolerance “decide to take their ball, go home, and drop out of the game”? Instead, why not persist in the conversation by honoring your own integrity and spirit? It is often the more tiring path, but you honor your own best self and your belief in the inherent good of the world when you keep modeling compassion, tolerance, and love for your fellow man.
I, too, followed the link and read the biography about the “zany mystic”. His description of his first experiences at Oregon House sounded as if they had happened to him only yesterday. Any experience that has touched you all so deeply and passionately must have at its true center so much good. Now, if only more of you would share that “core” maybe the tenor of the blog would change. 198 New Kid and I can both sense that most of you are amazing people.
Peace to you all.
It’s a trick. What makes another’s person mind higher then yours? I suppose your believes only. Ouspensky was very good promoter of this believe. Now this idea is very popular in so called B-influence books. Only lazy author don’t say something like “I add nothing to this knowledge. It comes directly from angels/God/higher mind/cosmos/aliens/another plane/etc.”
If the ‘mind’ belongs to lower centers (machine) it means minds are mechanically equal. If the ‘mind’ belongs to Higher Centers it means nothing but Presence/Enlightment/Awareness/etc. It deals nothing with ‘knowledge’ – the realm of intellectual center.
And you are free to believe in ‘higher knowledge’ trasmitted from ‘higher mind’ while making blowjob or anal sex. It’s up to you. It is without judgment, you can continue, no problem. I feel compassion to you. The Beast likes sex, yeah….
What I like about your response in 254 is that it has more of the flavor of coming from real person. You’re there for it, not hiding behind a smokescreen of flowery “wiseacring,” or bullshitting as it’s known by those unburdened with having read Beelzebub’s Tales. I’ll respond to its substance separately, after a spell. Enjoy your day.
At the end of his story, I wondered why the center director called him. Doesn’t that strike anyone as a bit odd?
Was she calling him out of compassion for his immortal soul? (no) Or was it simply a follow-up sales call? (yes) Or did she need him to join to validate what she was doing with her life? (yes) And by him not joining, did he prompt her to think more deeply about what she was doing with her life? (yes)
Why have we all been tip-toeing around this issue for so many years? Let’s just be clear about it, completely sincere about what’s happening…
“FOR SALE: Awakening! Everlasting Life! Superiority Over All of Humanity! Get yours while supplies last!”
———–
PEOPLE:
Tell me sincerely… Is that the “principle of payment”?!
About 194 Chopsticks’ response to your question, and the belated comments by others, I think that is a limitation of the blog/internet. Communication by computer is incredibly difficult, and so much wit and sarcasm that is tolerable in person to person conversation becomes intensified and unpleasant on the screen. Also, I personally try to ‘never’ respond to the nasties on the blog 1) because it adds fuel to the fire and 2) there are a number of posters that seem to have something like a mild case of Tourette’s Syndrome, and I don’t think there is anything anyone (including them) can do about it. I find the best approach is to treat the blog like a crowded carnival scene, and move away from the people barfing and screaming at each other and try to spend time with those talking about things of interest to me.
Observer: “So, I can only assume you are all too used to people in the community being paranoid and mean-spirited that it does not even raise your eyebrows anymore.”
Well actually KA 228 dealt with chopsticks’ “nonsense” pretty quickly as I recall…as soon as anyone could get a word in edgewise between Scott, Greg, Unoanimo and Bruce, that is!
I would have been on the spot quicker but was out back hosing off the mud.
Thanks uno 154, mudbaths are great for drawing out the toxins
“If you see or hear any weird stuff just break a bottle of Renaissance wine on the front and back porches, burn a few Bible concordances, that should take care of it; if not, give me a ring here on the blog, I’ve got some ‘heavyweights’ I can conjure up from the early Byzantine empire;
not to fret, we’ve got yo back girl…”
LOL Uno. Honestly, I’m not worried. The blog has really calmed any fears I had earlier. I was just being a “Mama Bear” protecting her cubs, ya know? It seemed really scary at first, but my initial concerns have softened quite a bit. Everyone I’ve met so far in the area (and on the blog) seem to be genuinely nice people. It’s gonna be fine…..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
KA – 258
“That shame stayed with me for a year, then two then …..then…..then…. Now it has been 22 years since I left and the shame had become like background muzak and I never even noticed it – just didn’t “”””””share””””””” any of my life before moving here and being a ‘good person’. I was born just 17 and 1/2 years ago (hahahahahaha)
I wanted SO MUCH to be a ‘normal person’ (meaning I wanted to **feel** normal and good inside) and I have spent so much energy and time with it. That meant denying my real deep interests in these ideas and most of all, these folks —-this community. When I got connected with the noble Sheik’s blog – about two months ago – things started to unloose in me and frozen parts started to thaw. And, funny thing, it has been the ‘normal people’ like you both and all the wonderful breathing folks in my life who have shown me deep compassion. It is partly thru your accepting words that that I am able to start to not be ashamed of my life and of ever being in the fof. Thank you so much!”
KA – What’s to feel shameful about? Hasn’t everyone taken a path in life that later was shown to be less than what we’d hoped? We’re human. Live and Learn, right?
It’s kinda sad to hear the personal torment some of you have expressed after leaving FoF. What you thought were your core beliefs and trusted friends…….had to have been very very difficult to work through. I can somewhat relate….
At one time, I too, wasted 20+ years in life looking for a different reality through a wild lifestyle & partying. My “experimental” fun party times lasted much longer than they should have — and turned into quite a nightmare. It was tough to overcome and even harder trying to come to grips with the fact that I’d wasted so many years. “I would have gone to graduate school” “I wouldn’t have settled for these crappy jobs” “I would have moved away from this rat-race years ago” etc etc etc….. 99% of my former friends are gone. Oh well. I’d rather have “me” back.
But now, some 12 years later I can say: “Hey it happened. It made me who I am today. When I learned better, I did better. I had a zig-zag journey there, I zigged when I should have zagged” Oh well live & learn and “Teach your children well….” Screw shame & guilt. It’s just another waste of time.
Thank you both for your well seasoned posts. I agree, it takes some gentle forethought to keep a posting from being just a knee jerk response. This medium has so much promise in it for those of us who wish to have an exchange of ideas in as neutral a territory as possible. Maybe those of us who do wish to use it that way, just need to keep on adding our little two cents? My 2bits, don’t give up? It does add up, doesn’t it?
Observer, you are right. The impact of experiences in the Fellowship of Friends do leave an indelible mark on any normal, sane person who enters ready and willin’. There is and has been so much beauty, so much presence, so much effort, so much transformation yet so much hypocrisy as to break a normal person’s heart. And we are normal people, many with trembling hearts, sad at what is occurring, yet grateful for finally getting all the unpleasant garbage out and exposed to the air. We have been both the turtle slowly making it’s way, without looking too far up, down or sideways and also the roadrunner running fine and fast so long as we don’t look down.
In this time period many of us are simply trying to understand, in a personal sense, in a spiritual sense, and in a pathological sense both who we are, who Robert Burton may be and what our “School” is. Thanks Observer for your gentle prodding and all those posters out there who offer a thoughtful post.
Tim: The debt impulse to thank you is building so now I post. Thanks for the zeitgeist link, that was very thought-provoking. I passed it on… Thanks for the ZanyMystic post, so many ways I related to that story, even though many of the life experiences were unknowable for me. It was enhanced by feeling pretty sure who the author is (the big cars gave it away). And thirdly, thank you for your honesty and courage in telling the story of your own involvement with alcohol. I like your choices.
Cathie said: chopsticks, you advise Observer: “Also as a beginner ask more talk less listen more.”
What an arrogant, cultish attitude.
———————————————————————————————-
I am sorry if I offended you ‘Observer’, Cathie and KA and other libs out there.
Observer – I take it back please say, listen and ask as much as you like.
Ames – did Observer contact you yet?
I’m putting an excerpt from Zanymystic’s description of his life in the Fellowship of Friends, taken from his website. It is taken out of context; visit the link Tim Campion gave for the whole story, which I personally find rather remarkable. http://zanymystic.tripod.com/id11.html
—Ames
______________________________________________
Life at “the Ranch” was a constant wonderland. One might go from pulling weeds to peeling carrots, to dressing in suit and tie to dine in the most magnificent room in California, the “Meissen Room”. Of course, that was over 27 years ago, and I suspect these descriptions are long outdated. Robert was truly “King” of this Empire, and everyone emulated his “self-effacing, humble walk”.
Tall, broad shouldered, he carried himself as if he was but a lowly servant, slightly hunched down with a peasant’s shuffle. Of course, he wore silk suits and magnificent rings, not unlike Liberace, but a tad more elegant and “discreet” about his obvious penchant for the Divine Feminine. His Queen was safely tucked away inside, for private consumption only. With student donations pouring in, and “special donations” ranging from $400.00 and up, the man raked it in. By now, he must be a billionaire several times over.
(snip)
At this time, I traveled back and forth to “the ranch”. One occasion, I got a ride with a tall, slender, good–looking male, an architect. We stopped by his apartment before the final leg of the journey, and he made a pass at me. I wasn’t really attracted, and it had been years since I’d had sex, so frankly I didn’t know what to do. Besides, my own sexuality remained a mystery to all but me.
A day later, I was told “the Teacher wants to see you at the Lincoln Lodge”. Somewhat excited, yet apprehensive, I sat next to him in an overstuffed chair. He told me that my architect friend had asked if it was okay to have sex with another male and had spilled his guts. Bad idea. We were both given “the task” of not ever having sex with other males. Robert said, with a sweeping gesture in the air, “Can’t you see… there’s so much more…” and that was that. You didn’t argue with the Teacher. Period. Depressed, I felt that the school was be-coming “too restrictive”. Slowly, like a society that is being modified and controlled, it goes largely unnoticed – until it’s too late. I felt the school was turning into, or already was, a cult. I couldn’t see why being homosexual should limit my spiritual advancement. Not only that, I was one horny male, after years of celibacy. I told Randolph that I was going to leave. He hated to see me go, but understood completely. We embraced and said goodbye. It seemed “logical” to make my escape to San Francisco, a doomed failure and raging alcoholic.
I ended up living in the Haight Ashbury with a buffed Queen who was rarely home, living the “perfect life” of a fag: the gym, polished copper pots, and two alcoholic roommates. The bars nearby became my new home. Dealing with leaving a school, believing one is basically doomed, is a dark shadow from which to emerge. Many other students either left at that time, or were asked to leave, especially if they “knew too much”. My good friends, Stella and Harold, who had opened a center in Amsterdam, were asked to leave, having disobeyed the “no smoking” rule. Several years later I got in touch with Stella, and the truth came out. Robert had been blackmailing the straight male students, and their underage boys, into having sex with him. They were told point blank if they didn’t comply, they’d be out of the school. This had been going on from the beginning. Robert’s “inner circle” had nothing to do with level of consciousness. It had to do with who could do his bidding and keep their mouths shut. Those were the ones who ended up in “special positions” either traveling with him, sitting next to him at enormous meetings, or taking on “executive duties”. One fellow was used as his “boy toy”, which left indelible scars. He worked through it to eventually become a well–known artist. Those at the top seemed a bunch of arrogant scoundrels. One of the men who sat in front was a Doctor, who I bumped into at the San Francisco baths one night. He cringed and left upon seeing me. I was delighted to have left the school on my own terms, having taken what I needed. “Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!” says Auntie Mame.
Stella, in the meantime, began a support group assisting those who left or were asked to leave. Many folks were suicidal. I joined the group, and more sordid details of Robert’s sexual machinations were revealed, including a class action lawsuit that ended up settling “out of court”.
_____________________________________________
Note for less–experienced speakers of English. “Queen” and “fag” are two common slang words for ‘homosexual’ here in the U.S.A.
“So, I can only assume you are all too used to people in the community being paranoid and mean-spirited that it does not even raise your eyebrows anymore.”
_____________________________
Actually, to be very honest (my honest), the only ‘thing’ that raised one, of the nearly 800 eyebrow-hairs that compose the eyebrow, is your carefully crafted language; I must say ‘Observer’ I cannot help but compare the ‘language’ you use and say the one ‘New Kid in Town’ pencils out…
Now, I know you’re gonna say, Hey Uno, that’s not cool, comparing two people, etc. and see, that’s not it, really…
There’s something going on with your writing, maybe your not American, (British?) who knows; I do understand though that several people in the blog picked up on it, at least intuitively…
The only time I’ve ever heard people talking the same ‘meter’ (lot’s of “and yet” and “rather”, that you write here on the blog in through tape recordings of Fellowship of Friends meeting that used to be held at their Town Hall;
particularly those, cool as a pair of new leather gloves in the stocking hung with care, the night before Christmas, types like Peter I., and Robert T. (only in meeting settings that is, when the ‘good student above the good student’ thing is going on.)
Truly, ‘Observer’ no one ‘really’ talks like that in the FoF; particularly after a few bottles of ‘tannin from hell’ RVW Cabernet…
If I read any body’s ‘free flow postings’ there’s a kind of lawn chair, Lipton ice tea kinda linguistic; whereas yours comes to me (and I am really speaking personal here) as someone in the Fellowship whose pretending to be what they often term as a ‘Life Person’ or a regular guy.
Maybe I am nuts or possibly getting close to some aliment similar to Mohammad Ali’s…
I just wished to let you know that how your posts were initially treated seemed ‘normal’ due to the ‘aura’ your language semantics radiate, at least to me, there’s just something a bit askew and people feel it, whether it’s full blown cosmic consciousness connected or not, there’s something ‘in there’, the way you simply do not make any mistakes, carefully walking backwards whisk brooming your tracks… I know a little about this style of writing you see…
I use it when writing to certain governmental figures; they dislike it, I am sure, but they also know that it gets the job done when push comes to shove and they also understand that I am using it ‘intentionally’ to demonstrate an issue in that ‘formatory world’ of red tape and $44,000 dollar toilet seats.
Please do not take this too personal, I went back and reread your posts and curiously enough the name ‘Howard Carter’ came to mind… Is that you Howey?
It really does not matter; I just want you to know that this letter is to you and yes, I risk allot of “knee jerk” reactions; yet, well, that’s ‘blog-law’… I consider you my friend and I would hope that you would tell me similar things as I have shared with you today, as I would in person too, if I seemed to be playing ’sincere’ all the while wearing something on my head that I ’seemed’ to not be acknowledging that’s there, like a raccoon hat that still has the ‘raccoon’ in it.
________________
Veronique, my new friend; reading your last post was truly for me ‘a shocker’, no words to describe the awe….
Though I must say, yet, welp… here we are; I truly thought you meant what you said last night with the apology thing and all, yet, today, you’ve basically echoed what you apologized for…
It’s truly odd that you could write this to me ~
“You’re there for it, not hiding behind a smokescreen of flowery “wiseacring,” or bullshitting as it’s known by those unburdened with having read Beelzebub’s Tales.”
______________________
Demonstrating the very, no so “assuming” you mistakingly chastised me for…
Reading “Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson” changed my life forever, and I do mean forever; I drank of Gurdjieff’s love, fathomless and so profound that only chills down the spine and goosebumps really do it justice…
For me the reading of that book was a burden of the heart, not the mind, it changed me, it placed certain forces within me that no school on this Earth has yet to perform (for me) ;
I have love embedded in what I write (at least that’s what I feel) and I am here for it all and you… I truly would love to meet you some day, though sense it’s best for us to take a sabbatical from this weird little game you’re playing with me…
Be well my friend; I look forward to meeting you some day.
262
Tim, I applaud you on your decision to curtail alcohol. I was quite aware of the alcoholism problem in the FOF and became a teetotaler many years before I left. I think it was partly just my way to rebel against to form because I wasn’t anywhere close to being an alcoholic myself. I recently won 3 bottles of a local(Nevada County) wine and a wine tasting party for up to 20 people in a raffle. Now I have to decide whether to watch my friends enjoy the wine or to loosen up and join in. Anyone want an invitation?
My2bits (252)
Referring to some recent ‘negative’ posts, you wrote:
“I had hoped here to find intelligent and positive guidance for my personal process of leaving the school.”
I agree with you. I would like to see more stuff on here that would help those who are currently in the FOF to leave, or help those who have already left to deal with their experiences and get their lives back together.
After I left, it took awhile to ‘reclaim’ certain things and ‘de-program’ myself. For example, in the Fellowship you’re programmed to believe all this stuff about the ‘44 conscious beings’ working with ‘our school’, etc. Consequently, you tend to associate Bach, Shakespeare, Walt Whitman, etc. with the FOF. It can be difficult to enjoy their work again because it seems sort of tainted because of associations with the Fellowship. Can anyone else relate to this?
We were also programmed in regard to a number of other things such as dining, clothes, smoking, sex, drugs, what type of art is good, etc.
So here is my de-programming prescription, for those of you who have recently left: Be as ‘un-Fellowship-like’ as possible, at least for awhile.
Forget fine dining and dressing up in ties and dresses and all that. Get into your most comfortable clothes, perhaps shorts and T-shirt (or just skip the shirt). Get some kind of food that the FOF would despise, preferably something messy and ugly looking on the plate, but deep-down satisfying – maybe some ribs, corn on the cob, collards, etc. Park yourself in front of the TV while you eat. Watch something with no spiritually redeeming value whatsoever. Maybe something funny so you can work AGAINST the ‘wit exercise’. Forget the European dining. Eat it with your hands, if possible. Get your face into it. Go for it – be a slob for once. Drink a beer with your meal – directly out of the can or bottle. Stare at the TV without ‘being present to your impressions’ or worrying about your alchemy or any of that. After dinner have a cigarette if you want. Smoke some dope if you’ve got it. Pick out some good music – nothing classical or even ‘new agey’ or ’spiritual’. Put on something rockin’ and sexy that you don’t have to strain your brain on. Crank it up (ok, use headphones if you have to). Lie there and get into the music, contrasting the feelings of instictive satisfaction that you are experiencing with the soul-paralyzing conformity that you experienced in the FOF.
Indulge every kind of ‘instinctive center’ desire. If you’re so inclined and have the opportunity, have casual sex – especially if you were one of those poor bastards who were ‘working with’ the sex exercise and probably missed many amazing experiences of pleasure and intimacy during the prime of your life. Send a big conscious ‘FUCK YOU’ to Robert for that one. That’s right, express a little negativity. Let your Instictive Center be your guide until you have exorcised all those FOF demons.
Then when you’ve satisfied all that, you can put on some Bach and read a little Whitman or Goethe without the specter of Robert hovering over you.
I’m not suggesting that you abandon your spiritual pursuits – far from it. Just take a break from it for awhile to clear your head and then return to it in whatever way is real and true for you. Don’t be so gullible next time. Remember what Gurdjieff said about our suggestability. Hopefully all us on this blog who have left the FOF at least learned that lesson.
Drop me a line if you would like at veronicapoe@gmail.com. Sincerely I don’t want to offend you and I probably would do better with private communications. Sometimes our human condition is a comedy of misperceiving the other’s intentions and way of being. I don’ t doubt that this is happening between us. Maybe it can be remedied privately.
Ha, some of your suggestions remind me of my days within the fof.
Which could be one reason I languished in the outer circle. Of course, other reasons might be the Lower Self, the King of Clubs, lack of valuation, poor householder, believing the ‘I’s, negative attitude, lack of refinement, lack of effort, using the wrong triad, wrong thinking, lack of being, lack of understanding, and basically just wrong everything. Bad, wrong, negative, weak, and so on.
And they say Catholicism erodes your self-esteem.
“I WANT TO FEEL GOOD.”
Someone explain to me what’s wrong with that sentence — how it is not healthy, spiritual, natural, and how it doesn’t bring us closer to God, and closer to ourselves. I’m listening.
I need help! Who in the hell is Ayn Rand? Some one told me to read “FountainHead” and I would know what he was talking about.
I went to Wikipedia for Ayn Rand and immediately became overwhelmed.
This is the “the fellowship of friends – a cult for INTELLECTUALS blog. So, intellectual friends tell me.
I have never heard of Ayn Rand that I can remember. But, some of the stuff I read about her didnt “hit” me right.
OBJECTIVISM isnt that an Ouspensky word? “Man’s EGO is the fountainhead of human progress”. EGO is supreme, individualism, selfishness are virtues.
The fellow that told me to read Ayn Rand’s Fountainhead said that at the end of the day (bottomline) self-interest rules.
And, that nobody should use the government as a crutch.
The city’s infrastructure needs funds and therefore taxes will of necessity go up. If you cant pay the taxes as they rise then move or educate yourself to a level that employment opportunities arise. What if you are disable or have a family member diabled. Go to a homeless shelter and compare your life with their’s and if it’s better consider yourself fortunate.
Is that basic for OBJECTIVISM? Does anybody know? And, are the Ayn Rand believers a cult? Cult was mentioned on wikipedia.
Ayn Rand would fit easily into this blog as an intellectual, but that aint me.
Unoanimo I suspect the thing got winged and ran off to collect its blood.
Ayn Rand’s “objectivisim” is her particular use of the word. Others have used it differently. There are or were attractive aspects of her philosophy, such as the realization that in such entities as government and/or large institutions, corporations etc. the “ideal” is usually based on mediocrity. Anything above that is usually shuffled around into quasi-obscurity so as not to reveal the mediocrity of larger whole. She originally advocated the “individual” and her heroic characters are lone, brilliant outlaws on the fringe of society who are clearly way ahead of others intellectually, in talent and with conscience, yet not to sacrifice the individual for the whole- as she saw that as eminently destructive.
Unfortunately, this philosophy was degraded both in her lifetime, and further today until it’s basically a philosophy of greed and me,me,me, without the original redeeming features. It was sort of an non-developed theory that people today contend is a finished theory, and it’s used to defend greed and the us/they society. It has become it’s original theory’s opposite.
The hero of The Fountainhead was an architect who was modeled after Frank Lloyd Wright who, as I mentioned in a recent post, had a connection to Gurdieff and also had his own little cult. I just started the book about it so can’t tell you much more about it right now.
“Any community or philosophy that keeps alive such intense feelings and passions in people months and year after they have left it–cannot be all wrong. The depth of emotion that you all keep expressing, trading, and even fighting with shows that something was stirred so powerfully in all of your hearts that there must be a great deal of good inherent in the FoF experience.”
“Any experience that has touched you all so deeply and passionately must have at its true center so much good.”
——————
OK, I get it.
Hidden agenda not so hidden any more.
Well, in answer to your plea for testimonials as to the inherent good of the FOF “at its true center”…um, no, I don’t think so.
At its center, the FOF is rotten. The true good that many of us found and created during our time together came from inside ourselves, our own basic goodness, sincerity and love.
That we were gullible and naive, arrogant and cultish, fooled and abused by a corrupt leader, hypnotized by a special language and a false sense of being “chosen,” is the sad truth for many of us as well.
Hey Arthur,
my suggestion: put “The Fountainhead” down, and take up “Atlas Shrugged” instead. All the ideas Ayn Rand sketched out in the former were much better developed in the latter.
I spend some time trying to get at the basics of her philosophy of Objectivism (including reading “Atlas Shrugged” ten times, to the consternation of my wife), and in the end decided that it would have been fun—and profitable—if she had met up with Gurdjieff (she would have been on much more equal terms than almost any of his students). She seemed to take a brutal self–assessment and personal honesty as far as she could, which was quite far. If she had had the opportunity to ‘stand on the shoulders of giants’ preceding her, she could have been great, but she took the road of inventing everything from scratch out of a sense of integrity
#252 my2bits
I had hoped here to find intelligent and positive guidance for my personal process of leaving the school
________________________________________________
When I first seriously considered leaving the school I did not have access to lots of old friends to consult with. I went to a psychic fair one day and connected with a sympathetic psychic who had some personal cult experiences of her own. She really helped me to see my situation more objectively and helped me to deprogram my thinking. I also had some reiki sessions that helped me move some of the stuck energy out. I don’t think psychics and reiki are for everyone, but I do think it is important to get outside help if you need it–whatever kind you are comfortable with. Be kind to yourself. I now do a litte reiki (and reflexology) myself and offer it freely to anyone who wants it– no charge.
Seems to me like Observer is just Peter Ingle or someone similar up to his old manipulative tricks again. Remember the phony dialogue between the insidious ‘A friend’ and ‘John’ from way back at the Blogs early days ?
What is disturbing is the lenths people defending the FOF go to constructing this type of longwinded deception. And they think it will fool people ! I got the familiar ’smell’ coming from ‘Observer’ straight away.
On another note. Anyone else find it funny that as soon as Howard Carters cover was blown as N.Spaulding,Nick himself suddenly appears with a ‘message’ to HC to not to post any more and then they all dissapear.HA !
Thanks. That’s funny about the raffle prize, but it does sound like a nice opportunity to invite the friends over. Instead of 20, you could invite 40 and share! (And advise them it’s a TASTING; you know, look, swirl, sniff, taste and SPIT. (Can be lots of fun, but not on white carpets.)
Regarding the many posts on the role of alcohol within the fof.
It was the first of three prospective student`s meetings. Dianne was joining before we could utter one word so I identified with her. This was the very attitude that I had come with, maybe six months before. I did understand that these guys might all be nuts, but I was definitely going for it no matter what. So I resonated with her. The fact that I remember her name nearly twenty years later attests to that.
The story was the same for the second and third installments.
All was rosy. We then brought out the coffee and cookies all intentionally laid out around a beautiful postcard of Renaissance. Endless rows of grapevines crowned with a distant bunkerlike winery. Out popped her first question.
^What`s that?^ I answered, the winery.
She was out the door so fast she left the smell of rubber on the hallway carpet. Well, that is a slight exageration. She did explain on her way out that her husband had been severely damaged by alcohol and she couldn`t possibly get involved with an organization which not only condoned the use of alcohol but encouraged it.
14/587 KA
…one has to have an invitation to come on the site. AG violated that rule. It creeps me out. He knew he was violating the network rules. He did not have an invitation. He did not email anyone on the site to see if it was OK. Many here who actually WERE invited don’t want him
Really? I’m surprised (and a little incredulous) at that last statement, KA.
Would you ban Girard? Asaf? Others who work in AG’s office? What’s the criteria? Why ban anyone who hasn’t misbehaved yet, (besides using someone else’s invitation, which seems more like a misdemeanor than a felony). Why not let people use the site freely? I can see banning someone for bad behavior (what they do) but not for “pain from the past” (who they are).
If someone sent me AGs email address, I’d send him an invitation to the GF today.
As I said before, we’re all adults now (I hope) and although I’ve been AGs target in the past, I’m not sure I understand what’s coming across to me as anger and bitterness. (And maybe I’m reading that wrong.)
Best…
JoelF
More on AG and the GF:
The more I think about this the stranger it seems.
It’s like we’ve forgotten that in the FoF, the victims are often identical to the victimizers—I know I’ve played both roles.
Is there something that makes AG (or others for that matter) intrinsically or especially evil? That’s what banning is about, isn’t it? Is he unredeemable? Who can make that judgment? Not me, I’m trying to get out of the judging business.
It also goes to show that ideals such as inclusiveness and non-exclusivity sound good and promise much, but can be damn hard when “the rubber meets the road” and we have to act on those intentions.
It seems to me that the GF is either for all present and former members of the FoF, or it isn’t, and it’s another club where the people who are “in” will decide who will be the people who are “out.” I don’t find that very appealing any more.
Also, AG may need a dose of humanity more than most. And when the day comes that AG wakes up to what’s been going on in his life (as Ames so eloquently explained in his letter from years ago) and can apologize, I for one will try mightily to forgive him. Why not? I am AG, and you, and me. One lesson I got from my days in the FoF was to try to exclude nothing, but to try to open to everything.
I think I’m up to 4 cents on this topic by now, thanks for reading.
JoelF
REPOSTING CONRADE’s #561, WHICH GOT BURIED IN BACKLOG
To Laughing Love (556),
You wrote, “I’m always curious about posts that use the school language to describe thoughts and feelings… I understand that school language is something we all share and which can be understood. I often don’t understand when an ex-student still uses it to describe their current experiences as though he or she was still in the school.”
Very good question. Here’s my answer…
Our work language gives us the precision we need to reach higher centres. Using intentionality as one speaks is a tool that’s useful for one’s work. One must not waste time with the language of life. They are not ready to embrace the task we’ve been given from Higher Forces. As you do the will of your Teacher, you will have everything you need to reach Paradise. Do not inner consider your good fortune.
Yes, I’m kidding.
But not entirely kidding…. because (hopefully) everyone can see from that paragraph just how easy it is to spew out supposed profundities with the so-called work language — even little ole me. But can’t you imagine almost anyone in the Fellowship, including Robert, saying something very similar to the above? Pre-digested, nothing original.
Going back to page 3 of this blog, here’s a post by “George Orwell” :
http://animamrecro.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/the-fellowship-of-friends-discussion-part-3/#comment-4058
Following this, someone posted a link to an essay by the actual George Orwell… “Politics and the English Language” from 1946:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
Very relevant to us, today, here.
As far as using the “school language,” I think it is a combination of things. Part of it could be that many people posting on the blog have recently left the fof, and that it’s still a habit to use those same old terms. But “from one angle” (argh, there I go again — an old Fellowshipism), the “work language” does sometimes describe certain concepts more concisely and more accurately.
And you also suggested that. But you bring up a great point. Even while in the FOF, I know some people who tried to find new and different ways to talk about “the ideas,” partly because many terms and phrases began to lose their meaning as people over-used them. If it was worthwhile trying that within the fof, it’s definitely worth a try outside.
Orwell’s essay is worth checking out again. The use of the language is a key point in everything we’re discussing here on the blog. In my opinion, it’s one of the most important topics.
Here’s how they ended their post…
P.S. From my essay, since it’s not clear many of you still read books:
“The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish squirting out ink.”
“But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.”
Let’s not also be so naive that we forget that, as I understand it” AG’s job in the fellowship is partially to protect it’s interests in a legal manner. Not so with other’s in the hierarchy, at least not on that level.
Let us also remember that regardless of AG’s personal inner struggles, he has had and has still access to “stuff” surrounding the FOF that probably nobody else does. Let us also not forget the times in the past where his legal position was used to initiate steps up to and including lawsuits, some of which were thrown out as approaching harassment.
Let us also not forget our own propensities towards gullibility and stupidity, as well as our past ease for being manipulated. I personally don’t see AG as the same as everyone else in the FOF. I don’t think he does either. I think it’s a sigular case that should be dealt with on that level.
If AG finds himself making the decision to leave the fold and/or give up the position and responsibility to be the FOF sleaze bag , I would perfectly open to his being invited. After all Carl M. is a member of the GF and he served basically the same position.
I think many of you, in the interest of magnanimity, are being led by the nose by your inherent malleability and lack of discrimination. That is how I feel and I made my feelings known to William. As far as AG being just an equal member of the FOF, he’s just a bit more “equal” than others.
Hi Joel,
I was a bit surprised also that so many on the greaterfellowship site did not want his presence too. But there it is in the ‘forum’ discussion. I don’t advocate a permanent ban – just six months, to two years maybe. I would not have automatically banned him (if it were my decision, which it is not – I just have an opinion) and would welcome current members happily. I think it would be wonderful to have the people you mention come on to the network. But this was not done with a clean energy. A temporary ban would just hit the ‘pause’ button. I wish I could say with you how grown up I am and all, but I don’t have a good intuitive sense of how this was approached by AG.
Also, I don’t find this blog all that terribly negative – I don’t get that hit from it. I’m around enough young people (who are not my daughter) so that I’m used to the word ‘fuck’ not having such a negative charge – even listen to rap music from time to time. Why CAN’T AG come here and play online with us? You took some virtual punches, so did Charles R and others too.
I don’t know him but my impression is that he is not a retiring shy person who just can’t take a bit of virtual wrestling.
Snorer, you old dog,,
The mini-quasi-religions do disappear over time. I would not equate the FOF with one of the Major religions. And I do think it will collapse on it’s own energy.
I would also urge some to go to the GF and in the upper right searc corner enter Goldman. There is a recent story from a female student about an encounter with him. It might jar some back into reality (as subjective as that reality is).
567 Bullshit Meter
“to Observer–you are an obvious phony. . . .”
567 Bass Ackwards
“I highly doubt you are a real person . . . .”
571 Whale Rider
575 Another Name
“Dear Observer if you are real and I think you are . . . .”
579 David B.
580 KA
“Since I completely doubt you are just who you say you are. . . .”
Okay, I am not sure why so many of you think I am some kind of fictional character, so I’ll give you a little background. I was employed for many years as a teacher in the Yuba-Sutter area. In the late 80’s/early 90’s there used to be a great restaurant in downtown Marysville (can’t remember the name of it), but when I asked one of my fellow teachers the background of the restaurant because the food was so great–I heard for the first time about the Fellowship of Friends. However, it was described to me more as, “this weird cult in Oregon House outside of Marysville. They get a lot of foreigners, and they have a lot of strange ideas and philosophy, but they run this great restaurant and they have a winery, so they’re also a fairly sophisticated group. Not your normal violent-we-have-weird-religious-ideas-so-we’re-camped-at-the-edge-of-the-world-wanting-to-destroy-you-or-us-kind-of-a-cult. They even have operas, etc.” That was my first exposure years ago. I noticed in the restaurant that all of the help was extremely polite, many with foreign accents, downcast eyes, quiet, helpful demeanors–not your usual blue-collar restaurant help. I never forgot the restaurant or the people.
So, recently, when I met a person who had been in FoF for over fifteen years and was blatantly bright, well-read, funny, and apparently easy-going I was shocked to learn such a great person had lasted in a “cult” for that long. I looked up your group on the Internet because I didn’t want to be rude or invasive by posing a lot of indiscreet, probing questions at such an unsettled time in the person’s life. Evidently, he/she had just left the group in the last few months. That’s when I started to read all of your posts and discovered this whole community of very intelligent people discussing esoteric topics side-by-side with sheer nonesense, and, of course, descriptions of absolutely unbelievable things like the sex and the ridiculous spending on sometimes worthless items–financed by the labor of some of those same great people I had observed in that restaurant years ago. So, as an educator, I thought I would just ask a few questions, so I could begin to understand what you all saw and what drove you on in your search for so many years.
So, why are so many of you convinced that I am some kind of a phony? From your years at FoF, have you all become hypervigilant and suspicious of others? What a shame. I hope you take the idealism and desire to search for greater understanding and “self-remembering”, and keep those good parts and take them out to the broader world. It may sound like flattery to you all, but, believe me, except for all the “psuedo-philosophical-spiritual-nonsense-babble”, the nugget of central ideas sounds like a gold mine to me. (David B. and Another Name I particularly like the honesty and tone of your responses. I appreciate everyone’s answers because most of you are confirming what I have already witnessed on this blog–a community of intellectual, heartfelt group of adults–with a former high degree of tolerance for “weirdness/incongruency”.
Bless you all in your quest, and I am a real person.
Thanks for your post, Observer: “Bless you all in your quest, and I am a real person.”
Most of us are still trying to figure out if we are real.
For what it’s worth, everyone, why not give Abe a try and see what happens. You may have many answers to that question. But I really like what Joel had to say. Let’s just try it. That’s my vote, for what it’s worth.
8 2b
You know the down side is a BIG down side, with quite a few people potentially getting tangibly hurt. Is that ok with you, for your curiosity?
Comment number 3 has been newly moderated.
Laughing Love (556),
“I’m always curious about posts that use the school language to describe thoughts and feelings… I understand that school language is something we all share and which can be understood. I often don’t understand when an ex-student still uses it to describe their current experiences as though he or she was still in the school.”
There are those to whom the “work language” and “the system” were completely external and a part of their school personality. There are others who verified that the ideas were objective information. These are two separate lines of development neither can ever convince the other of their view. From my perspective it is all connected with self remembering. If you have personally verified that it is possible to make a specific effort that can change your consciousness this creates an entirely different relationship than those who imitate the language. My experience of the reality of self remembering cannot convince someone to whom it does not exist of either the reality or value of this state.
There may well be a need to find a new language to redefine ones experiences since being in The Fellowship can create a distorted understanding of the system and language. This doers not mean it is the language that is at fault. It is faulty thinking and attitudes that poisons the transformational power of the ideas. There are some ideas that are contained within the framework of the system that are not available else where. If we consider a “core idea” such as that of the 4 functions and the division into parts by the quality of attention. Then it becomes a simple question of personal experience. These are either true or false. If true than it is important to separate the language and ideas from the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burton’s distortions.You mention the use of the language to describe thoughts and feelings. It is of course the system that clearly seperates thoughts and feeling as being from different centers.
For myself I studied and verified the ideas of the system before being in the Fellowship, in the Fellowship and since. They provide me with a useful tool to organize my thinking, my experiences, and understanding. Some ideas are simply part of my reality. This makes them neither true or false.They just are. There are certain areas that cannot be discussed without the “work language”. You cannot discuss the influence of type, features, alchemy or level of being without using the language because these are parts of the language.
Most of those who argue against the system then provide an alternative language that to me is usually more vague and poorly defined. Most of the comments using perspectives on contemporary psychology are only partially correct. They tend to be as Gurdjieff said “knowledge of the part without connecting it to the whole”.
It is very possible to communicate effectivly without the use of the work language ( see post’s by sceptical optimist) as it is possible to say nothing worth anything using the language ( try reading Graduates posts) As always when we reduce a question of right action which means using the right triad to an either or question any answer becomes wrong because it is incomplete.
To Comrade 561 (4)
Wow. You really scared me with your initial response. In example, my eyes got really wide and my mouth opened slightly.
Thanks for your interesting response to my question about using work language.
I really appreciated reading the following post from “George Orwell” and recommend that one either re-read or read it for the first time.
http://animamrecro.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/the-fellowship-of-friends-discussion-part-3/#comment-4058
I have all sorts of thoughts about this but am having difficulty expressing them.
More later.
LL
Bruce, no that wouldn’t be ok at all. I do have some concerns about it. I’m sure you’re seeing something that I’m not seeing. It’s a tough issue. I wish I knew what to say right now.
14
You’re right, it is a tough issue.
But I think, because of the degree of conflict of interest, it would behoove everyone, including Abraham, to see that in this case his leaving the FOF should be the prerequisite to an invitation. And I think if Abe was honest, he would agree.
Just my “gut feeling” as Chertoff said recently.
Hi Observer, Thanks for your thoughtful and rather inspiring post! Its hard to know about each other in a virtual environment like this.
“I hope you take the idealism and desire to search for greater understanding and “self-remembering”, and keep those good parts and take them out to the broader world.”
I posted on the Greater Fellwoship my opinion on Abraham Goldman
One if it was really possible to ban the Fellowship heirarchy from spying on the Greater fellowship than a ban might be meaningful. It is not. If Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends desire to they can penetrate the Greater Fellowship. A ban is meaningless. Let Abraham join I believe he has more to fear from an honest exchange with former and currant students than they from him. There is actually very little discussion of the Fellowship on the Greater fellowship that is pretty much left to the blog and the blog is open to all anyway.
Two- It is hypocritical to critize the Fellowship for its exclusionary practices than turn around and propogate the same behaviors. It is time to have courage and faith in the power of truth and openness.
Observer #7: It’s really different strokes for different folks. In my group there was an 18 year old female who had never read Gurdjieff/Ouspensky. In fact there were several people who had not.
Myself, I had read Gurdjieff/Ouspensky/Collin/ Nicoll and received from those readings a spontaneous and continous awe/wow. That I never received from public school systems model of universal knowledge/understanding. In other words I was moved to begin a journey toward the miraculous.
What you are reading on this blog I never experienced. But, for everyone who experience the awe/wow, I can understand perfectly how they could stay for as long as they did.
What you are finding out, I just found out in the past six or so months. I do not have to walk in their shoes to understand their misery, sorrow or whatever sadness they are cleaning themselves from. I refer to those who have not yet disentangled their being from the FOF relationships. In old time 4th way lingo it was Magnetic Center who caused the stirring in my case.
Cyclops#589 Spasiba? I lack one course of having a minor in that language and that word is about all I remember. Oh, well.
Cake: You are a poet!!
“Two- It is hypocritical to criticize the Fellowship for its exclusionary practices than turn around and propagate the same behaviors. It is time to have courage and faith in the power of truth and openness.”
That’s a straw man. There’s a difference between exclusion to perpetuate the FOF bullshit and protect RB, and trying to protect members of the GF from AG. There is open exchange between the GF and FOF members who have joined, and has been from the beginning. Zero exclusion. We’re talking about a completely different and unique situation.
If AG or FOF proxies penetrate the GF surreptitiously, it would require some under-scum to serve as the proxy. How long might that occur before “no friends, no posts” becomes relatively obvious. Might there be someone who can, in any semblance of conscience (except maybe for AG) pretend a open hearted exchange with “friends” on the GF to simply turn over info to the FOF legal beagles?
A former student/12 wrote:
For myself I studied and verified the ideas of the system before being in the Fellowship, in the Fellowship and since. They provide me with a useful tool to organize my thinking, my experiences, and understanding. Some ideas are simply part of my reality. This makes them neither true or false.They just are. There are certain areas that cannot be discussed without the “work language”. You cannot discuss the influence of type, features, alchemy or level of being without using the language because these are parts of the language.
The “work,” so-called, is an “ideology. ” Statements in the “work language” are “ideological statements,” i.e., value judgments in the guise of statements of fact.
Ideological statements only make sense in the context of the community of others making similar value judgments. Hence ideological language is not “value neutral,” it is “loaded,” i.e., it carries a whole set of assumptions with it, about what’s important in human life and in human community.
“Type,” for example, elevates the significance of particular endocrine glands in understanding human behavior. You can’t talk about “type” without implicitly signaling that you believe endocrine glands significantly explain people. Sometimes they might, but you can’t talk shorthand with people who don’t share the assumption that endocrinology is, in some measure, destiny.
“Alchemy” contains a mix of observations, about aesthetics about caste or socioeconomic class, and about the idea that these lie on a continuum. Again, socioeconomic class or caste may have some utility when trying to make sense of human behavior, but the “alchemy” idea contains a set of organizing assumptions about these things, and is not a value-neutral term.
The concept of “Features” lumps together descriptors of various automatic behaviors. It is hard to think of a more loaded word in the fourth way ideology. The word is inseparable from a value judgment about these various behaviors and tendencies and how they are to be regarded.
“Level of being” is a fancy ideological way of referring to a mixture of emotional maturity and cognitive adeptness.
These ideology-laden terms are value judgments, which operate to condition what we see and what we don’t see. The pernicious paradox: Ideologies such as these seem to promise greater understanding by organizing our perceptions into a unified system of knowledge and values. Ironically they prevent us from observing and understanding the very whole of which they, tantalizingly, seemed to offer a glimpse.
Anybody out there a fan of Thomas Kuhn and The Structure of Scientific Revolutions? Under that model, ideologies are like the paradigm under which “normal science” proceeds. But there are “anomalies” which don’t fit the model, which undermine the model, just like there are all kinds of perceptions concerning human nature which simply don’t fit body type, “alchemy,” “features,” “level of being,” “center of gravity,” and so forth. Sooner or later, seeing the world in those terms simply holds you back.
#20 Veronicapoe
Right on!
Like saying that there are no hierarchies in creation and to view the universe as one is the most correct view. Ironic, it has just put that view on top of a hierarchy of philosophies.
I still like the old metaphor of the map and the landscape.
You are standing on a foothill, snow capped mountains rising above. Oaks, wildflowers, golden grass rolling in gentle waves of breeze under a cottonball sky. In your hands you hold a map describing with mathematic precision every contour, elevation, and blade of grass.
It’s just a friggin’ map!
Oh I can’t resist. Yes I am a Kuhn fan. Yes he describes ‘normal science’ which proceeds by articulation of the paradigm, then anomalies mount, and this is followed by periods of ‘revolutionary science’ where the paradigm breaks down and is replaced by a new one.
Kuhn was studying the social beahviour of scientists – who in their own way are seekers of truth, of reality. I read Kuhn over 30 years ago – and his viewpoint has stuck with me. But from my viewpoint of today I am struck by a couple of things.
First, how one set of mental constructs is replaced with a new set of mental constructs. The mind is always busy modeling the world. Direct perception of reality, of truth, continues to be filtered through the layer of a lens. Yes we throw away the old lens and then get a new one – but still there is a lens. If you take an ‘operationalist’ stance, then it is the ‘usefulness’ of the model that determines whether you stick to it or not. So if ‘type’ or ‘alchemy’ is useful – then adopt it, otherwise jettison it – if one can overcome the ‘structures’ which have lodged in oneself.
The second thing which strikes me is how hard it actually is to drop an old outworn paradigm – even if it has massive holes in it. Kuhn (studying scientists not 4th way practitioners) basically said you had to wait for the old scientists to die of old age before a new paradigm could take root. For myself, I have a personal clash of paradigms between the FOF/Gurjieffian Enneagram Body Types (which I still see) and the Ichazo/Naranjo derived Enneagram as written about by many, but which I have been taught in a manner similar to the presentation by Sandra Maitri.
When in the FOF I disdained, what I thought of as the pop psychology version of the profound truths we FOFers were immersed in. However I now see the profundity and deep current of Truth embodied in this other teaching. Yes and usefulness too. So has one paradigm replaced the other for me? Well no. Are both true? Maybe/probably/I don’t know/I think so. Is there a grand synthesis possible? Seems likely answer to that is no. So I see how the mind tenaciously holds to models it has already embraced – it is structure in the mind.
So Veronica, I agree with you when you say : “The pernicious paradox: Ideologies such as these seem to promise greater understanding by organizing our perceptions into a unified system of knowledge and values. Ironically they prevent us from observing and understanding the very whole of which they, tantalizingly, seemed to offer a glimpse.”
In a way, adherence to one view of the Enneagram or another, is just a childish plaything. However, it is emblematic of the difficulty of just seeing things the way they really are.
Well that was fun……. David
To Veronicapoe (20)
You are completely amazing.
I’m still having difficulties expressing my questions and answers relative to using school language both within myself and in public.
Your post assisted me in gaining further perspective.
Chortle Mortal (22)
Thank you as well.
LL
Some thoughts:
If AG’s interest in the GF were motivated by the aim to protect FOF interests, what would be gained by JOINING & displaying himself. The fact that AF sought to join vs. invisibly view using someone else’s login – or via a mole-spy – attests to the non-strategic nature of this request.
And why would he bother? What critical information is disseminated via this network? As a professional strategy, openly joining GF is majorly discrediting & laughably non-strategic. Abe must think we are dunces if we accuse him of that plot.
I can perceive no risk to anyone by AG maintaining a presence as a member of the GF. Some of the discussion sounds paranoid, fear-mongering —Kinda parochial, and lacking relativity. Do you think that Abe needs to be on GF to fulfill his FOF mandate??
Remember that even if AG is a member, you do not have connect as a friend, in which case he cannot see your page and your comments wall, etc.
Actually, I don’t give-a-s**t what Abe’s motives are, because they don’t matter. He can continue his job as protector of the FOF & Robert & employ his usual modus operandi – So what! what’s new? We have all played invidious roles at times in this drama; we need not behave like drama queens …Are we all our shrilling our horrid Abe stories right now? GF does not need parochial overreaching policy interference (thanks v. much William for raising the question –we needed to talk, it seems) ; the GF network is SO much bigger-in-concept and more resilient than our flutterings would imply. Abe is just one pixel in the big picture of our GF world. Get out of the teacup… Those HEAAVVVYY warning tonalities about Danger, and Damage and Threat are the produce of fevered imaginations, too much daytime TV and Spy thrillers. (Bruce 10, you are gorgeous as an old woman, wagging forefinger)
As to the heavee question of “FEELINGS”…how do we FeeeiiiLL about Abe’s name appearing on the Member tab?…are we so squeamish, so affectedly delicate, impacted by our BAD ABE experiences that we would set a precedent of banning, rather than let the actuality of “what is happening” play out in whatever universal way it will. Maybe Abe is our bad-guy-of-the-moment, but there are many others around here with marginally lesser degrees-of-culpability, and different types of offences. What were YOUR roles in the FOF & what were YOU doing exactly a few years ago? How do I feel about YOU? Should we all be put on trial & have our various offences weighed and measured?
I have less (personal) beef with Abe than I have with some of y’all. In particular, you who left owing 2 months rent, you who thieved my stuff, you who asked my spouse to marry you when I left the school – and all of you who decided I was DEAD because I left and therefore no more talking to me and open-season on my spouse, you who borrowed XX thousand of dollars and walked never intending to repay…you get the picture. Some of your pictures don’t realize dividends in the good FEELINGs department.
And what precedent are we setting by banning? To be thorough & fair would require complicated policy decisions – to elevate this issue beyond mere lynch mob/kangaroo court opportunism – and to establish the broader applicability of our banning policy –unless this issue is the baby of those with ABE-beef to chew. And if YES to that, then the those with Abe-beef are embroiling us all in an issue of limited & personal nature. We should not institutionalize personal bad feelings in our GF mandate.
And if, in relation to Abe, we open the BAD-Feelings door, then we should in fairness open the GOOD feelings door. I know GOOD feelings exist out there for ABE. Can they be used as offsets, or are we only parlaying the bad stuff here?
So get real, get big, get over it, don’t waste time on it. Let ABE join and see what an amazing, spectacular, phenomenally awesome NOTHING happens
–excepting the minor option that Abe just gets overwhelmed by our principled acceptance, open-mindedness, good humor, & rationality and resigns his role.
But THAT would not be the aim, because Abe is incidental; our interest is in conducting ouselves in a principled and moderate way, and setting the Greater Fellowship up on a sound foundation.
Sorry Bruce, you are not an old woman after all. Your recent posts, unseen by me till now, redeem you.
JoelF (S.O. 1&2 ) Good posts.
Somehow admitting AG to the GF feels more like being in the fof again!
There is no perfection.
24 Morgan
That was a long, interesting load of crap. AG is the FOF lawyer. That’s it. You can make of it what you want, including an epic, if that’s your thing.
Otherwise, as long as he is in that position, there is no reason for his invitation to GF. Business is business. It’s conflict of interest. Period.
He himself said, you are right to ban me. WTF, you mean you know, and he doesn’t. Probably the one honest thing he’s done in awhile and you are fucking negating it. Who the hell are you?
The exact quote from the correspondence” with William was:
“I asked Abraham if he could say something that would help people be less afraid of him. He did not say something like “I am here ONLY for personal reasons” or “Don’t worry, I have only good intentions for the group”. His honest answer was that it was wise to ban him.”
For those interested, Noyes v. Kelly Services, Inc., a 2007 decision of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, involving allegations of “reverse religious discrimination” against Fellowship of Friends nonmembers, is now online:
http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_126
23/Laughing Love
You are a sweetheart. Feel free to drop me a line at veronicapoe@gmail.com.
28 Bruce
The exact quote from the correspondence” with William was:
“I asked Abraham if he could say something that would help people be less afraid of him… His honest answer was that it was wise to ban him.”
————————————————
I say let’s trust Abe on this.
To Bruce 19, 27, 28 and so on:
Hello! Now that I think I understand what happened with regard to Abe’s stealthy appearance on the Greater Fellowship site (I’m not yet a member of that site and don’t know how it works), and having read the last stream of viewpoints, I am inclined to agree with your position.
Abe’s presence on these sites is, for now, a glaring conflict of interest. He is without a doubt a “wolf in sheep’s clothing.” Simply because he is there to do his job. Period. No judgment; just fact.
Until he lays down his legal sword, and is willing to smoke a peace-pipe around the campfire, he should be banned from participation.
a former student 12
“…as it is possible to say nothing worth anything using the language ( try reading Graduates posts)…”
***************************
(I contemplated posting the following as a reply to this fool once before, but inner considered the reaction I’d receive for picking on the mentally handicapped)
Look carefully at the following words: Scott you are mildly retarded. This is not a gratuitous insult, I mean it literally.
You are not functioning with the same quality of equipment that the average person is endowed with. Do not imagine that you are capable of generating an exacting line of logic and therefore able to carry on a reasonable argument. You are insistently and aggressively out-spoken only because you are damaged by what is commonly known as narcissistic personality disorder, which commonly accompanies ‘borderline psychosis’. Quite likely you are also an alcohol and substance abuser (my guess, not my accusation) in a futile attempt to self-medicate in order to relieve the discomfort of your psychological symptoms. Pay to have an IQ test conducted on yourself and carefully consider the results in comparison with the average citizen and then shut the fuck up.
More about #32.
I consider myself a good friend of Abraham, and I respect him and his abilities as a lawyer. As to the parties he chooses to defend, well, that is another matter.
I agree with Joel and others that the Greater Fellowship site — anyway, what I imagine the GF to be in very idealistic terms — should of course be non-exclusionary.
However, in his role as Fellowship lawyer, Abe’s job is to find ways to remove threats, real or perceived, to the well-being and existence of the Fellowship of Friends. This blog and the GF site are perceived threats.
And so, those of us who value these forums should take common sense steps to shield them from intruders and possible harm, so that they can continue to grow and prosper and become freely what they will, in a spirit of malice toward none.
5 KA
Thanks. You probably have a pretty good solution. After reading the forum I’m much more ambivalent. Oh well.
And I don’t find the blog negative at all. Some of these distinctions are really old and tired, yes?
6 Bruce
Thanks for the tip, I didn’t realize it was going on on the forum. RobertC and others brought a lot of common sense to the topic. See comment above.
JoelF
Remember the story of the scorpion and the frog?
A scorpion comes to a body of water which has developed in the path of his way back home.
He meets a frog and asks him if he can carry him across on his back.
The frog is rightly afraid and says so.
The scorpion allays his fears by telling him it would be stupid to sting him because he himself cant swim and it would be suicide.
After considering the logic of this the frog agrees to ferry the scorpion over to the other side.
About half way over the scorpion stings the frog.
As they are both dying one from poison the other from drowning the frog asks the scorpion why he did it as now they will both die.
I cant help it, Im a scorpion, says the scorpion its my nature!
To those having a nice debate about work language. The ideas of body type and Alchemy are only work ideas in a little known pseudo-school called the fof.
They have been assimilated into it from other non fourth way sources.
In the average fourth way group having no connection to the fof these ideas are not used as they are not directly referred to by Mr Gurdjieff.
Having said this I personally value them and the actual work ideas too, as a finger pointing to the moon but remember not to look too much at the finger as Bruce Lee said “or you miss all the heavenly glory.”
Ltya Cy.
24 morgan le fay
You missed the point.
1 Skeptical Optimist
“Why ban anyone who hasn’t misbehaved yet”
Snake bites.It is snake’s nature.And when it bites,it’s usualy to late.
In the name of Religion
Church leader’s sexual trysts cause membership defections
The San Diego Union-Tribune/March, 1995
By Gordon Smith – Staff Writer
Topics
Psychological trauma
Philosophy supports sex drive
Taken advantage of
Members nervous around leader
Departures create financial bind
OREGON HOUSE, Yuba County- Five months after he had a sexual encounter with Robert Burton, the founder and leader of the Fellowship of Friends, Richard Laurel wrote an open letter to his fellow members in the group.
The letter explained that Burton had asked Laurel to become a night guard at his chateaulike home at the Fellowship’s headquarters, called Apollo, here in the tiny foothill community of Oregon House. Among the duties of the guards, Laurel said, was to give Burton massages.
Like most members of the Fellowship, Laurel went on to say, he considered Burton to be practically a god, and someone whom he “could fully trust in every regard.”
So it surprised and shocked him, Laurel said, when during a massage, Burton pulled down his (Laurel’s) pants and, without a word, performed oral sex on him.
“I felt betrayed and used by the man who I thought was my spiritual father,” wrote Laurel, who prefers to be identified by the surname he used while in the Fellowship.
It bothered him even more when he found out that many other members, including his teen-age son, had been pursued for sex by Burton for years, added Laurel, who is married.
Laurel’s letter led to a wave of resignations and expulsions of longtime members of the group. The resulting loss of as much as $500,000 in annual dues may have in turn sparked a financial crisis, according to some former members.
But a spokesman for Fellowship denied that it’s in financial trouble.
And Abraham Goldman, Burton’s attorney, insisted that the sexual encounter between Burton and Laurel was consensual.
“It was not the only time they had physical affection with each other,” Goldman added. “Mr. Laurel’s letter doesn’t tell the full story.”
It did, however, lead some longtime members to question Burton s behavior-partly because Laurel’s complaint echoed charges made against Burton and the Fellowship in a lawsuit by former member Samuel Sanders in 1984.
Sanders claimed he felt betrayed when he discovered that Burton made a habit of having sex with rank-and-file members, most of them heterosexual males and many of them married.
Philosophy supports sex drive
But he gradually came to believe that the philosophy was being used to support Burton’s personal desires for control and sex.
“I was needy for spiritual guidance, and I guess if you’re needy, you re willing to take certain things for granted more than you would if you’re not quite as gullible,” said Van Gaal.
He began resisting Burton’s advances after getting married in 1990, and left the Fellowship last October, he said.
Attorney Goldman said Burton had a consensual sexual relationship with Van Gaal.
“I can’t say how long it lasted or how often it occurred. But there were times when Mr. (Van Gaal) initiated the meetings.” Goldman said.
He pointed out that laws vary from state to state regarding whether sex between a religious leader and a disciple-or a doctor and patient, for that matter-is illegal.
“Mr. Burton has never abused his position of power or trust with a member, either involving a sexual relationship or any other aspect of his teaching,” Goldman added.
A current Fellowship member who said he became one of Burton’s Lovers for a time while separated from his wife agreed.
“Robert’s in a position of power being the founder of the Fellowship… but I don’t think he misuses that position”, said the man, who asked to remain anonymous.
“I’ve refused Robert sex,” he said, “If someone feels pressure to give in it’s basically their imagination.
“One thing that rules most of our lives is what people think of us,” he went on, “I feel I took a big step in the direction of being free from that” through having sex with Burton.
However Carl Mautz, a former lawyer for the Fellowship who helped defend the group during Sander’s lawsuit, said Burton’s sexual relationships with members are “an obvious abuse of power.”
Like many other former members of the group, Mautz said he wasn’t offended by Burton’s homosexuality, but by the inherently domineering aspects of a leader having sex with his followers.
Taken advantage of
Not all members of the Fellowship are approached for sex by Burton, Mautz noted. But Johan Van Gaal “was completely taken advantage of.”
In their 1993 book “The Guru Papers,” authors Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad reported that cult leaders often express and consolidate control over their disciples through sex.
Ironically, people who submit to experimental sex with their spiritual leaders often see themselves as liberated spiritual adventures, they wrote.
“That many discontented and innovative people were unwittingly seduced into submission… indicates the depth of people’s susceptibility to authoritarian control,” they said.
Goldman insisted Burton did not seduce Laurel or Van Gaal, “Sexual relations can arise from mutual attraction,” he said.
However the member who is currently Burton’s lover spoke of originally turning Burton down “when he first approached me,” and added, “It is always up to the person he, Burton, is propositioning to say no.”
In any case as Kramer and Alstad pointed out, most [devotees who study under a specific] spiritual leader-and make that study the focus of their lives-find it difficult to deny the leader anything, even when he or she openly expresses a sexual interest.
Moreover, the ideologies of small religious groups typically discourage any questioning of the leader’s actions, they said.
The Fellowship is no exception.
Members are taught that Burton is a higher being with understanding they do not have, said Mautz.
“People in the Fellowship who aren’t close to Robert act around him the way your ordinary 14-year-old would act around Michael Jordan,” Mautz said.
Members nervous around leader
“They’re nervous. They fumble for words. It’s a totally uneven playing field.”
Joel Friedlander, a former spokesman and board member for the Fellowship who resigned last year, agreed.
“One of the teachings of the Fellowship is that doubts come from the false part of yourself. That’s an effective control mechanism,” he said.
Cynthia Hill, the Fellowship’s director of public relations, insisted that while members strive not to express negative emotions, any topic can be discussed as long as it’s in “a neutral tone of voice.”
And longtime member Colin Lambert said the Fellowship has a teacher-student relationship that is based on established spiritual tradition and is difficult for many Americans, schooled in democratic principles, to understand.
“We do not believe that a teacher has to explain himself to his students,” Lambert said. “But you voluntarily enter this relationship, and take responsibility.”
Such ideas support Burton’s continued leadership and lifestyle. But as Lambert acknowledged, only those who trust the teacher stay in the group. Those who don’t, leave.
Charles Randall, the Fellowship’s former business manager, left last October in the wake of Laurel’s letter.
After 21 years in the group, he said, he came to believe Burton was effectively manipulating the minds as well as the bodies of members through a self-serving philosophy.
“I’m kind of humiliated by the whole thing,” said Randall.
“I thought it was the one true way, but as it turns out, it was just a cult.”
He’s among about 100 members who resigned or were expelled in the aftermath of Laurel’s letter, according to Mautz.
Departures create financial bind
The changes could put financial pressure on the group, Mautz said.
“That’s a huge amount of money” to lose in the form of annual dues, he explained (most members give 10 percent of their income to the group).
In fact, the Fellowship is in default on most of its 1994 property taxes, and owes more than $415,000 in ‘94-’95 taxes, penalties and interest. The 1,300 acres owned by the group are valued at nearly $21 million, said a spokesman for the Yuba County assessor’s office.
Hill said the Fellowship will initiate a payment plan later this year to cover taxes in arrears.
“This situation is not unusual for businesses,” she said. “As often occurs with young wineries in particular, cash-flow difficulties may arise as production and sales become equalized.”
Others say that whatever the group’s finances, Burton’s predictions of a catastrophic earthquake followed by nuclear holocaust could lead to a crisis down the road.
Margaret Singer, a professor emeritus of psychology at UC Berkeley who has counseled thousands of former cult members, said both doomsday predictions and mass suicides (which she called mass murders since they are orchestrated by cult leaders) will increase as the end of the millenium nears.
“All these cult ‘prophets’ enjoy reading significance into the change in the millenium,” she said.
Friedlander said he doesn’t think the Fellowship’s doomsday scenario will lead that far.
“But you can’t rule it out,” he said. “‘The Fellowship certainly has the idea of gathering the faithful for the coming holocaust, of creating a self-contained community, and believing that former members are out to get them.”
Randall believes the Fellowship will almost certainly endure, as it did after the lawsuit by Samuel Sanders.
Burton is unlikely to destroy the vehicle that enables him to indulge his whims, Randall said.
And as doubters leave and loyalists stay. he pointed out, the group becomes more cohesive than ever.
22 Chortle Mortal
>For myself, I have a personal clash of paradigms between the FOF/Gurjieffian Enneagram Body Types (which I still see) and the Ichazo/Naranjo derived Enneagram as written about by many, but which I have been taught in a manner similar to the presentation by Sandra Maitri.
FWIW I don’t see them clashing. As I look at both of them, I have taken to calling the 6+1 type an impersonal dimension of essence. The psychological structure that results is deterministically derived from the physical organism. Simone de Bouvoir has the idea that sex is a “species function” and so a person, insofar as they take their identity as their sex/gender, is not really an individual. You can’t be a fully human character by playing only the role of one with your style of genitals. It is a coarse-grained map.
I have “seen” people acting through their 9-type ego in the manner of their body type.
I don’t think integrating them is at issue; they are clearly different maps, the 9-type being the expression of a competent contemporary teaching. I do have the ambition to understand how, if at all, they are interrelated. At a recent seminar, S. Maitri stated that some people, after extensive work on their 9-type, find to their surprise another, apparently secondary type structure to be in evidence. This is recognizable to me as a triple-active type with passive “features”.
On this same subject, it was related to me via the GF that the full-blown FoF type knowledge can be found in a book that dates to before the Renaissance period (I mean prior to 1600 C.E., not a pun). Speculation is that the author may be Jacob Boehme. Some of the really really old people may know about this. I would appreciate any recollections, heresay, nasty rumors etc. on the subject.
michaeln at GF
Dear All and 2 be and Bruce.
If AG goes on the greater fell I will be of the list. Joel if you can not read the signs and understand what it means for people, who are in and or still on the fence I can not help you to understand. A is a lawyer. I enjoy and respect him as a person…but he is a lawyer and has double interests and …he will use that info. He is as sharp as a knife and is not very good in listening to you.
Being on the greater fellowship is for me a way of healing and not with the possibility that I might be threatened with a law suite sooner or later. Have you guys any idea how much energy it takes to get a notice that you might have to appear in court….Have you ever. For many people it means lots of time and for some sleepless nights and a lot of money.
Dear Abe can call lots of friends if he needs to do something else when he has a spare moment. Maybe a walk would help his health. Balances his centers or listening to the pain and hurt (call them victims if you wish) of many friends and ex students. Does he call his ex students friends like Steven? Or does he avoid them with the nose up? They live a stone throw from each other.
Why do you think the greaterfell is ONLY BY INVITATION.
Please consider the students with v-s-a and g-c.
Love to all of you
Yes sheik what is up with you? I wish you all the warmth and joy and thanks for what has happened here.
Bruce thanks for your contributions.
Cyclops thanks for the frog and scorpion story…that sshould tell us enoughin this matter.
#551 my2bits
“In my experience, Abe is a gentle, sincere, and intelligent fellow. If he has had to show his professional teeth over the years as an attorney in defense of the FoF, well — that’s his job in his chosen context.
HAR!! Just doin’ his job. A swell team player!! And quite the smart fellar.
“A host of you fellow bloggers were once very good at the jobs you did! Digging holes, planting palm trees, cooking Italian dinners, planning events, acting, dancing, and so on and on.’
Yes, you blue collar, trailer park dwelling ex-students. You sure dug good holes for palm trees, and made a mean calimari, much as kind, honest Abe applied his noble trade. Wait, he mostly settled out-of-court with these same hard-working students’ money!!
“So, please do consider the possibility that Abraham may just need to delve into this dark world of ‘the blog’, for himself! Give him a break. Welcome him to participate.”
I question the benefits for Abe in delving into “this dark world of ‘the blog.’”
Closing 2 doors of perception could get a little scary. You are 2 steps closer to being completely alone with yourself.
Dear Morgan le Fay
Would ou be so kind to read your emails again?
Thanks and all the best to all of you.
Observer (glad to know you are real…):
I referred in an earlier post [14 #568] to a land called, Benefit-of-the-Doubt, as a place where current students try to find a way to relate to Robert Burton as their Teacher.
“In it’s early and initial stages, the-Benefit-of-the-Doubt means the land of No-“I’s”, a wonderful space for Self Remembering. One learns to react to Robert in the space of having no “I’s”, by simply trying to be present and transform all the contradictions. [Incidentally, I have a few well placed Friends who are flying quite high in that place.] In it’s later stages, the-Benefit-of-the-Doubt, digresses to the land of No-Eyes, an unwillingness to accept the reality that is in front of one’s face.”
After posting that comment yesterday, I realized I had missed the most important middle ground between No-“I’s” and No-Eyes. It is called My-Lies. My-Lies is a very individual (yet commonly shared) space where a person places all of his or her intelligence, emotion, and commitment at the service of something Higher (what they perceive to be a School and a Teacher), finding a way to explain to himself or herself how Robert’s manifestations could be acceptable as manifestations of a Conscious Being (HC is a great example of such a travesty). This whole internet discussion can be seen as an exploration into the land of the-Benefit-of-the-Doubt, which turns out to be quite a mine field, after all. No-Eyes meets My-Eyes; My-Lies meets My-Truth. And somehow we all try to communicate with one another, by the grace of the Shiek and this blog.
—————————————————————————-
David B [#579]
You encourage departing Friends to “consider not going quietly.” I agree, however confrontation will not suffice. I’m sure you can appreciate that anyone who emits the least hint of negativity towards Robert and the School within the confines of the Fellowship of Friends CANNOT BE HEARD. Without, of course, is to be expected. That is why so many fine students out there (Cake Please’s, Lucie, people we have known and loved ) have chosen to remain in state of No-Eyes, thereby avoiding the “negativity” of the Blog. It is a shame because the truth here can set them free – of their own illusions – should they wish it.
So is there a way to help our Friends? I can only suggest trying a Socratic type of questioning dialogue using the Fourth Way concepts, exploring what G & O could have meant by the term Conscience. Neutral. Non confrontational. Loving. Searching. Probing. As this blog has become. Nisargadatta was a master at it. BTW: We do have to have transformed our own negative emotions in order to do it…tricky business.
—————————————————————————-
To Comrade via Words and Reality [#3], Veronicapoe [#24], etc…
On the use of Language, Work or otherwise. Interesting posts, all of them. The language we use defines the reality we choose to experience. The language of the Fourth Way opened wide doors for many of us. Doors that can also be seen as limiting, separating partitions of a living reality.
Consider the words of Shunryu Suzuki on the use of mind:
“As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw.”
Love,
Bass
Dear Bass and others,
Thanks for your post.
Also consider people who do not want or can move away from Isis. Or people who have children at the LCS? The G-C V-s-a people? You do not want to atracked too much negativity.
By the way..I am still interested in sitting.
Did we not give robert the benefit of the doubt????? Soooo long.
Life is Sleep,
to talk….to sleep
to write…to sleep
to think…to sleep
to express my “own” thought…to sleep
machines borns and machines die,
they`re just biological life.
without self remembering you do not exist.
look for the kingdom of heaven. Be present
This is All and everything.
Comments 37, 38 and 39 are newly moderated.
Another Name (41): I am still alive and kicking. All the best to you.
#542 Sharon
He indicated that he would like to be a member of the site as a “pleasant way to take a break from the daily routine at the office.”
??? May be it would be better to change job?
Here is my answer to William
I receive your letter concerning A.Goldman.
Personally I don’t care for myself although I am questioning the real motivation of his choice:
What proof of good will A.Goldman can give?
Could he write on his ”member page” a message concerning all the subscribers showing his position towards every one here?
What is he really defending? I know that everything is not completely black or white, but A.Goldman has a specific role in the school and defend a certain aspect of it. Can he explain his initial position towards the blog, for example?
I am also thinking to all these students still in the FOF and who joined the Greater Fellowship . They are in a much more vulnerable situation than we are, even though they had the courage to subscribe (to GF)against the position of the FOF, they are still exposed to direct pressures from the FOF.
We have a expression in France which says:
“Do not let return the wolf in the sheep-barn“
May be the last word should come from the students who are still in and are exposed in the GF.
Aline
41 Another Name
Joel if you can not read the signs and understand what it means for people, who are in and or still on the fence I can not help you to understand.
See above. After reading the discussion on GF, I flipped to vote for not allowing AG on at this time. KA has a good compromise, and there are many other worthwhile suggestions.
In the end I just had to respect the members of the GF who are still in the FoF. Inclusion is a great idea, but maybe Bruce is right in making AG a singular exception.
Thanks for all the input and the opportunity to process this with everyone’s help.
JoelF
46 Simple truth
Oh, mercy…..
On inner circle students joining the Greater Fellowship.
I wonder to what extent we realize that the strong inner circle of the fellowship of friends is composed of people who have meticulously divided into two very precise personalities. If anyone has lived with anyone of them closely for a good number of years, you would have angles to share on how this manifests when looked at closely. We cannot underestimate this state because looked at deeply it reveals that one of the personalities moved with a certain degree of success and the other one, too. The beauty and the beast are both powerfull. The I that is willing to give itself up for Robert and the I that is willing to work on itself and become a better human being, both developed amongst these students, in fact, all of us, but in them to a very different degree and in them, the I that was willing to give itself up for Robert at their own cost, prevails much more strongly while in the rest of us it does not, or at least to a lesser degree. They are in a much more delicate, dangerous and difficult position than the rest of us. They are willing to act against themselves and the people around them to hold Robert above, hence what makes others think that they would not act against you, us, to protect Robert?
I was much surprised at a formal dinner with Girard at the galleria when our friend who is so soft, good willing and kind reacted to my questioning of Robert with a powerfull and angry: “The sequence works,” he would have hit me if he could have and the kind, soft and goodwilling personality dissolved into a ferocious and determined man faced with an enemy.
If you read the Way of illness, a wonderfully practical book on how the body tries to balance the infinite contradictions of the soul, you’ll find a few paragraphs that mention how the ear is somethink like Pinochio’s little grasshopper telling us the right, or moral direction to take and ear diseases and infections are closely related to the fact that we’ve become deaf to the grass hoper inside.
These facts may be uncomfortable to all of us since we all suffer from different illnesses but they are as liberating as difficult to endure.
Going back to the subject, the question might be: How do we help each other out of that duality if it is really help what we wish to do? I personally believe some of those people, most of those people, have divided so drastically that they would have to be willing to take deep treatment to have a chance to get out of that situation in this lifetime, beginning with Robert. Almost a whole society or community, much more powerful than the fellowship would have to take care of such individuals in a very careful manner to lead them out of the extreme duality without equally damaging them. Probably only the Gods and life itself knows how to do that. I doubt, but would be pleasently surprised if proved wrong, that we in the greater fellowship, could counteract strongly enough the state of distortion that they have put themselves in.
I do think that if such students wish to participate in the blog, it is a much better medium than the Greater Fellowship for they have a process to deal with before they can really call themselves friends. They were nobody’s friend but Robert’s inside the Fellowship, it takes a lot of work to become everybody’s friend or even just impartial. The real measure would begin if they could at least show that they have been able to befriend their own self above Robert. Then perhaps they could befriend others. The blog tests, pulls and breaks many of the necessary strings to allow for such process to at least begin. It has to do with the magic of conversation or COMMUNICATION, harsh as it may be often.
I haven’t invited Girard to the greater fellowship because I think he would be at least honest enough to say that he is not interested in belonging to it. My guess is that he would wish to remain in the “intact bubble of the fellowship”.
This is actually interesting because perhaps such students could join the greater fellowship if they asked? Don’t we know that considering such option is actually against Robert’s direction and for any one of them to join the GF sincerely is an act against the traditional fellowship form?
Maybe a few questions and material to read and respond for could be asked from such students, maybe they could give an account of their involvement in the fellowship from their point of view, maybe they could be heard if they were willing to talk which I doubt, for that is already, too beautiful a willingness. But sooner or later, to us or to others, they must talk and be heard, like the rest of us.
Indeed, just closing doors is the worst option because it is a dead end that will strengthen the extremes. The issue is delicate, how delicate are we?
Abe was voted off the island by an angry and frightened mob. On a purely reactive level they are right: kill all the grizzly bears, wolves and rattlesnakes. On an esoteric level a fateful opportunity was missed. Facing and transforming threats is the antithesis of reacting with power and fear.
On another level this was a case over equal rights. Is this new society intelligent enough to recognize the ideals of its own arising? “Greater Fellowship,” meaning those that have been rejected for their convictions are gathered together to become greater than those that reject them and the first thing we do when faced with a dilemma is reject one of our primary rejecters. That was a failure of conscience. We are now the same as they are.
One of the central excuses for this action was that people still in the Fellowship of Friends would not feel comfortable in the Greater Fellowship if one of the central figures of the Fellowship was visibly inside the sanctuary. Look at the insanity of such an excuse. If you are a member of an organization where the central figures so terrify that you are fearful to be seen by them at a location where you might feel safe then you are obviously trapped in psychotic cult. Get out.
#19 Bruce
“If AG or FOF proxies penetrate the GF surreptitiously, it would require some under-scum to serve as the proxy. How long might that occur before “no friends, no posts” becomes relatively obvious. Might there be someone who can, in any semblance of conscience (except maybe for AG) pretend a open hearted exchange with “friends” on the GF to simply turn over info to the FOF legal beagles?”
_______________________________________________
Bruce, this may already be happening. I know of one invitation that I consider questionable and pretty much assumed they had gotten themselves an invitation (from another current member who is flirting with both sides) in order to allow FOF officials to enter the site.
Elena, in your post #50 you mentioned a book “The Way of Illness.” It sounds interesting to me, but I couldn’t find it when I searched the internet or amazon.com. Do you know where I might find it? Thanks.
51 Graduates
Wasn’t it you that wanted to start a separate blog because you felt that the Sheik, as an outsider, was the wrong person to oversee a blog of insiders? A blog that was open to everyone from it’s inception.
And now a network that requires an invitation should be open to everyone, according to you. Seems like your opinion, once again, has more to do with your apparent need for control and your inflated sense of self, something that, it appears, you are the only one sharing.
Why not start your own network and invite AG as your first member. You can call it “Legend in my own mind”.
51
“Facing and transforming threats is the antithesis of reacting with power and fear.”
Facing and transforming threats encompasses much more than not reacting with power and fear. It also includes delineating and defining which threats are real and which are imaginary. There are quite a few people who have dealt with very real threats emanating from AG, whether they were in the right or not, that has required inestimable time, money and inner energy. Calculating for these possibilities is more important than saying to one’s self “I must avoid at all costs reacting from fear, and use my power appropriately”.
Fear can be one of one’s most powerful senses when used correctly. It should be part of what one uses to discriminate, not identify.
In response to post # 20 Veronicapoe writes
The “work,” so-called, is an “ideology. ” Statements in the “work language” are “ideological statements,” i.e., value judgments in the guise of statements of fact.
Ideology 2
a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture
b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture
c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program
In regards to using ideology to describe “The System” I accept definition A as one that is accurate but only to a degree.
However here we see Veronica Poe using definition B.
“Ideological statements only make sense in the context of the community of others making similar value judgments.”
This is a little slight of hand. It is a fact that the “work language” and the “system” exist separately from any specific community. It is not a proven accepted fact that “The System” fits this definition. To base a whole arguement on an unproven fact indicates a lack of basic logical reasoning.First you need to prove or in the least make a reasonable argument that “The System” is an idealogy as described in B. The use of the language by The Fellowship of Friends may be faulty. This does not prove the ideas themselves are incorrect. Calling the work language an ideology and than assuming it is incorrect because you define it as an ideology is circular reasoning. Ideology in and of itself is not proof of whether a system of concepts is correct. To make this illogical jump is to say that any systematic body of concepts that is any philosophy that has ever existeed must of itself be false.
The author avoids the one significant item which to me was central in my post. This is self remembering. The system exists only in relation to self remembering. Individual consciousness is what defines the correctness or incorrectness of the system. If self remembering itself is not possible than the system which uses this as a core idea is meaningless. Addressing ideas like body type, features, alchemy and level of being independently from self remembering indicates the author has no idea what the actual subject is. Also while type, alchemy and features are important in the Fellowship they are only secondary in terms of the system. If as in the context I was using them they help communication then they are a useful tool. The larger concept I was addressing is thaT there can be no reconciliation between those to whom self remembering is real and those to whom it is not. If Veronica Poe wants to argue self remembering is not real to her then that is their truth. I cannot question that. However If they wasted much of their life pursuing something that does not exist that does not make it a fact for everyone. Nor does the fact that there may be those who are currant and former members of the Fellowship of Friends who never experienced self remembering and verification of ideas in the system for themselves.
Veronica Poe states
“These ideology-laden terms are value judgments, which operate to condition what we see and what we don’t see. The pernicious paradox: Ideologies such as these seem to promise greater understanding by organizing our perceptions into a unified system of knowledge and values. Ironically they prevent us from observing and understanding the very whole of which they, tantalizingly, seemed to offer a glimpse.”
This again is a slight of hand. Presenting an unproven statements as fact and drawing conclusions from these “facts” is the height of faulty thinking. In this last statement she is again taken unproven arguments as facts. “they ( any systematic group of concepts) prevent us from observing and understanding” this is not proven. What is missing is any personal experience. Who is this person to write “Ironically they prevent us from observing and understanding” this is using “us” as a universal. To be true there can be no exception to the arguement. I say my own experience is different.
As a bold change what if we actually look at what I wrote?
What did I state that Veronica Poe is apparently arguing about? That the system works for me? Well If I say so who are you or anyone to argue the truth of this? Who can tell me this is false? And if it is false does it prove that the system is at fault? The basic premise of the “system” as introduced by Ouspensky was as “objective knowledge”. If there is an argument it should begin with whether this is possible or not. The system itself is accessible and as presented I.E. as a universal it should only take finding specific area’s where it is false to prove it is not objective knowledge. If as It appears that Veronica is arguing that the system is not objective knowledge,wouldn’t it make more sense to state this as a premise rather than assume it as proven?
I am offended at the personal tone of the argument. Veronica Poe appears to be telling me that I am not allowed to have my own verifications, that my own experience is not a worthy judge of my reality, that this very poorly thought out and poorly delivered argument should supersede my own experience. I don’t think so. This post changes scales as if the author has never encountered the idea. My scale was one, my experience, it was about my experience. This is practical scale. Veronica Poe uses a theoretical scale in which their own experience is notably absent. The two scales are not reconcilable.
I do not question anothers right to their opinion. I do reserve the right to mine and take offense not at those who might disagree with my opinion but who question my right to it.
Back to something that makes sense. What is missing from this exercise in intellectual gymnastics is personal verification. It is all written as intellectual arguments without the discipline required to have it make sense in that context. If the author was to any where state “In my opinion” or “in my experience” it would change everything. The tone is however that of arguing facts. Yet at every step there are no facts just assumptions. The one fact that is very accessible which is an individual experience of self remembering is missing. This was the central idea in my post. To respond to any part with out addressing thisis meaningless. It has no context. Make it simple. Is self remembering possible? Yes or no.
In conclusion Veronica Poe writes
“Sooner or later, seeing the world in those terms simply holds you back.”
This is a false statement. You do not know what I experience. Speak for yourself. Nor do you know if this is true for everyone, speak for your self. If this is your truth speak for yourself.
If you wrote “at some point any intellectual construct can become an obstacle to experiencing reality as it is or even just anything new” I would agree. You did not write this, I just did. You wrote a whole post that does not say anything about the subject under discussion as a means of putting forth some ill thought out opinions. A lot of the peanut gallery agree with your post. This should make you happy and is an unfortunate commentary on the level of thinking developed in the Fellowship. This use of sweeping unproven generalities and using unproven “facts” to prove a point is highly typical of the way members of the Fellowship tend to think. This is typical of the post of Howard Carter . This poor thinking more than using a specific language or the ideas of “The System” is really a problem and indicates a serious limitation. The problems with my thinking are never out there. Whether I chose to use the system is not your problem. Being unable to identify and address the subject is.
The subject was self remembering.
A few thoughts about the debate over whether AG should be allowed in Greater Fellowship:
1. My view of both the blog and the GF is that their most important role right now is to open the possibility of dialogue with current members. Obviously there are other benefits and other beneficiaries, but for current members these forums literally present a life line.
2. Ironically, the only way current members can be given the benefit of the doubt and be invited / welcomed to GF is by accepting the real possibility that some of them may have virulent pro-FOF motives. The more you peel back this onion the more it looks like a cold war spy story, with agents and counter-agents, and maybe a few innocent victims.
3. The discussion about AG in effect ascribes him, at least in our imaginations, much more power than he may actually have. Ironically, having experienced what it feels like on the inside through my role at RVW during the FOF’s publicity crises of the late 90’s, I can guarantee that AG, LT and others are in the midst of a siege mentality now. To a great extent it is THEY who fear YOU / US, more than the other way around. When I write “you” I refer to everyone participating in this blog and in the GF, and especially current members who the FOF-loyalists fear could either poison the well at Isis, or simply leave and withdraw financial or other resources that are critical to the FOF’s well-being and survival.
4. So here is my question: what is the higher right? (Sorry, yes, it is work language.) I’m not referring to justice or compassion for individuals like AG, but to the whole bigger picture. Who knows what internal events may actually happen to loyal current members who expose themselves to the blog and the GF, albeit with RB’s best interests at heart? They themselves may not realize the power of truth and open dialogue, and what may be changed in them as a result. And if we further a policy of banning these people, how can we distinguish those with innocent motives from those with malicious ones? Again, I am posing these questions from a place of pragmatism not nobility.
5. All that said, I still think AG should be kept outside. Let him sneak in if he wants, but do not allow his “loving student” banner to wave as a symbolic skull-and-crossbones in the GF, and a perceived threat to other current members.
With love to all both in and out,
Joseph G
Passing comment to all:
This debate, with all of its wonderful points and counterpoints… Would it ever occur in the Fellowship of Friends?
Imagine the discussion at one of the meetings several years ago…
“Well, I think the decision to expel [name your ex-student] from the Fellowship is questionable at best. His criticism of Robert Burton is very reasonable, and we would all benefit from listening to him. For the remainder of the meeting, we will discuss his concerns, and everyone is welcome to convey their angles on this topic… I think someone had their hand up over there in the corner. Is that Ames? OK, Ames, go ahead…”
58
If that would have happened I would have continued going to meetings (then, not now).
The students who are still in the FOF and who subscribe to the G.F are breaking an exercise given by the teacher.
To my knowledge, it is the first time that students did that, publicly, in the school, giving their name and their photos, standing up to the teacher and the established rules.
I consider that this a highly respectable attitude.
Aline
A former student
Having tangled with you before on the subject of logic, ideology, etc., I believe that you are not sufficiently rigorous in your own reasoning; you often miss entirely, or misunderstand, the main theme of a discussion. You take ideas & treat them according to your own inconsistent home-grown & idiosyncratic understandings.
Whereas VeronicaPoe’s contributions are based on formal understandings, your contributions seem undisciplined and are peppered with a mish mash of contradictory ideas.
Your attempts to use the language and concept labels of formal logic, scientific method, etc. backfire on you by revealing a lack of formal education – at least in this area – which lack may explain your susceptibility & over commitment to the rigid conceptual paradigm that it is served up in the FOF.
Incidentally, the effort to elevate system ideas beyond their intended scope undermines their real value. The Fourth Way ideas have a subtler & specialized utility – for the spiritual seeker only. You seem to manifest the egotistical need to attribute the system of ideas – to which YOU attach YOUR identity – a much greater universality and significance than is actual.
Perhaps your Ego-Identity is discomforted by the notion that your life exists within a conceptual framework that – in the eyes of many – would brand you as a “weirdo” or an ignoramus – hence the need to argue so elaborately to prove their “truth” and to undermine commonly accepted notions.
61
“Incidentally, the effort to elevate system ideas beyond their intended scope undermines their real value.”
I’d have to agree with that one. The “enneagram of personality”, to me, is an example.
Graduates:
“If you are a member of an organization where the central figures so terrify that you are fearful to be seen by them at a location where you might feel safe then you are obviously trapped in psychotic cult. Get out.”
—————
That part I totally agree with.
Graduates (currently 51)
Bravo! I share your vision of the GF & interpretation of AG policy. Anyway, banning is merely symbolic: AG can monitor the GF regardless of policy.
Ah lamentation…I cannot help but feel that – in the world of all possibilities – we eliminated a few: we ‘acted out’ a weakness & introduced a limitation.
WH’s message did indeed define the only nearly-valid basis for the policy (the same policy could be implemented for many lesser reasons).
“Conflict of interest”, I can almost swallow —except that the conflict part is imaginary if you subtract the “feeling-reactions” and pare the issue down to the practical.
But in our own (questionable) mythology, we have been long “imprisoned and tortured” so cannot be expected to regard our “captors” with equanimity, nor regard them as inconsequential.
I hope we will in time come to see the policy as the manifestation of that state of fear, resentment, and paranoia that exists in the pendulum-swing away from the FOF.
PS.
Dear Graduates, I think you worked your way to a fever pitch in your last paragraph, and concluded with a Liverpudlian Kiss to the banning “majority”…I think I’ll stay behind with the arnica & comfrey leaf…leave the “in” or “out” dogmatism to the FOF’ters.
56/A former student
First of all, let me say that I am sorry I offended you personally and I apologize. My statements were not meant to belittle or ridicule you, although I used material you presented and obviously cherish and I publicly dissected some of the things you said. You are certainly entitled to your opinions and beliefs and I did not mean to suggest that you are not.
Permit me however to discuss some of the points you made. I do not intend this questioning as a competition with you, but as an open dialogue which invites the opinions of others. You wrote.
Ideology 2
a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture
b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture
c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program
In regards to using ideology to describe “The System” I accept definition A as one that is accurate but only to a degree.
However here we see Veronica Poe using definition B.
Actually, all three of these definitions apply. Definition c certainly applies. The fourth way ideology is a blueprint for hierarchical social organization. There are “men number 4″ and then there are those above them who have authority. Don’t kid yourself that this point is peripheral. It’s central.
You write: “Ideological statements only make sense in the context of the community of others making similar value judgments.” This is a little slight of hand. It is a fact that the “work language” and the “system” exist separately from any specific community. It is not a proven accepted fact that “The System” fits this definition.
Sure it is true that there is this language that comes out of the legacy of G and O and that is used by different groups. It varies from group to group. There are people here who’ve been in several groups who can vouch for the point. I’ll bet people from different groups can argue until the cows come home what constitutes “The System” and what doesn’t.
You write: To base a whole arguement on an unproven fact indicates a lack of basic logical reasoning.First you need to prove or in the least make a reasonable argument that “The System” is an idealogy as described in B.
I state my personal opinion that the fourth way so-called is an ideology covered by all three of the definitions, especially the sociopolitical one. It is not an irrational opinion but rather distilled from considerable reflection and bitter experience. I admit the offense of stating my value judgment in the guise of a statement of fact. May I also inquire about the emotional impact of encountering a value judgment, concerning a subject which you and I value differently, in the guise of a statement of fact? When I encounter ideological statements about “the work” or “the system,” I have an impulse to raise the consciousness, so to speak, about the fact that they are dealing in the currency of value judgments….
You state, The use of the language by The Fellowship of Friends may be faulty. This does not prove the ideas themselves are incorrect. Calling the work language an ideology and than assuming it is incorrect because you define it as an ideology is circular reasoning.
Ideologies by their very nature condition what people observe. Consider the term “verification.” It’s usually considered part of the “work language” so called. It is used to identify a cognitive process that goes on with “system concepts.” You can “verify” or not, but you cannot verify that some particular system concept is false. Why not? because by definition “the system” is sacred and not subject to being disconfirmed. So as an exponent or adherent of “the system,” your mind is going to be saddled with all this stuff that your experience is not allowed to jettison, because it’s not subject to disconfirmation. You either have verified it, or you have not yet verified it. How could it not affect what you observe?
You write: The author avoids the one significant item which to me was central in my post. This is self remembering. The system exists only in relation to self remembering. Individual consciousness is what defines the correctness or incorrectness of the system. If self remembering itself is not possible than the system which uses this as a core idea is meaningless.
Let me ask you, sincerely, are you talking about “the practice of ‘divided attention’”? The thing with the arrows in the Ouspensky writing? If you are, we can talk about that.
You write: Addressing ideas like body type, features, alchemy and level of being independently from self remembering indicates the author has no idea what the actual subject is.
The subject I was writing about was how the “work ideas” so-called belong to a category of systems of ideas and blueprints for social and political organization that I call “ideology.” You were not writing about that subject; I was.
You write: Also while type, alchemy and features are important in the Fellowship they are only secondary in terms of the system. If as in the context I was using them they help communication then they are a useful tool. The larger concept I was addressing is thaT there can be no reconciliation between those to whom self remembering is real and those to whom it is not.
I take your point to be that the utility of “self remembering” is not open to discussion. If you don’t want to talk about it, that’s ok by me. I do not need to have you adopt my values and we are allowed to disagree.
Elena!
Damn glad to see you back here.
VeronicaPoe
You contribute an essential, unique, educative disciplined energy to this blog. Your steady practical effort is hugely appreciated by me. My hat off to you.
To Tim Campion, (5/529)
thank you for including that link to the movie
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
I think it is a must see and gets the grey cells really working.
Gurdjieff used to say he was teaching Esoteric Christianity, and that this teaching is older than the Christianity we know. It has existed long before. He also talks about the map of presanded Egypt he had found. There are many way to interpret that, but one way to look at it, is that it is the sand in our eyes. That film removes quite a bit of that sand. Almost unbelievable but so believable. I liked the whole film, although I am usually not a fan of conspiracy theories.
The end is very good. It talks about the need to develop a sense of connectedness. A connection to nature and to other humans. All of us in this blog and in the Greater Fellowship are connected in an odd way. I agree with Joel (6/1), yes I am also AG. We all played funny games with each other at different times.
Fear is the wrong guide if we want to create a true Greater Fellowship.
Love and acceptance should be our way and I am ready to be naive about it.
What do we have to fear??
Hi guys. I think there is too much “us and them-ing” going on here….think on this:
Errata
Graduates: I misunderstood your last para.
Please disregard PS. on my last post –I agree!
666 Martin from Berllin.
You dont have anything to fear. However read back through some of the posts from current members who do. Perhaps we can think of it in relation to the film you refer to. There are forces in the larger world which are definitely insidious why should it be any different in the small world of the blogs. Any organism has these different aspects within it. For example if you got cancer would you just say hi welcome cancer cells and hope that they didnt spread? In some situations fear is the absolutely correct emotion. I like the man in question but it doesnt prevent me from seeing that he is a shark wearing a dolphin skin and making clicking sounds.
Personally Im not afraid but some of my friends have something more to lose. Some might argue that its only illusions they have to lose and that they will allways survive but Its not my place to throw them into that situation. Some of them have to put food on the table for their kids.
He is a very cute scorpion though.
lty. Cy. und machs gut.
Cake Please, around 570, previous page
An aquaintance from my distant past and I were chatting. I asked him why it was that even though his heroin habit had cost him everything, even his son had been robbed and killed on Father`s Day while trying to find him on Shooters`Alley for the family dinner, that he was still wanting to pursue the heroin. His answer was simple and to the point. `When I find something better, I`ll switch.`
It didn`t matter that he had suffered much and was well aware that the promise was a lie. It has now become a deep understanding for me that life is mostly a building of addictions and a dealing with whether it is fed or not. The subject of the addiction doesn`t matter. It can simply be a thought, feeling, sensation, or belief. Imo it is a matter of choosing something better to distract myself from the pain or suffering of the previous `boss`. The heroin addict was right. His trouble was that he thought it had to be chemical.
In the same way, we inners and outers often think that we need to find `another school` and this is what holds many back from leaving for so many years.
On another scale but within the same framework, personally I just didn`t know what I wanted. Even now I am terrible at updating my grocery list, but at least I now am fully aware that something has got to change. How to I know? Anytime that I observe my state descending. Now where did I hear the expression. `My state is what counts`, oh so many years ago? Was it my mom or was it my center director?
And now we are One, now, now. All Is Well. Joy to All !
Oh yes I forgot!
when I was deeply existentialy concerned about the way things were being run in the pseudo school, one of the people I approached for help in understanding in order to make my decision to leave was good ole Abe.
His assistance consisted of the statement “too weird or not too weird.”
My ultimate conclusion was, too weird and too far away from anything resembling compassion and conscience or any other by products of consciousness.
What one might call a lack of C influence.
Lack of compassion conscience and consciousness. Cy.
#34 Dick Moron to my post #551 on 1(4):
Thanks, Dick, for the gentle slap across the face in response to my Pollyanna-ish defence of AG. I needed that!
It’s clear that after all these years in the Fellowship, I have a very well-developed instinct to not ‘rock the boat.’ The waters definitely started getting choppy when the AG debate began.
Innernaut, I read the Way of Illness about twelve years ago and cannot remember the author’s who I know have at least another great book. Carol D or Davis C, suggested it to me many years ago and I would guess that she still knows who these two, I think, german authors, are. If you cannot get hold of her and really want me to, I might be able to contact her. Cheers. My e-mail is ludoteka at succeed.net.
To cyclops
Fear kept us in the FOF and now we use fear to keep others out of the Greater Fellowship.
Is this our limit, the virtual presence of AG??
Come on, we are greater than that.
Veronicapoe “Ideologies by their very nature condition what people observe.”
I’m finding this discussion fascinating. Also the AG conversation and some of the GF discussions. I think there is a new awareness of our connectedness evolving in humans at this time. And this awareness is itself an organizing principle. We are becoming aware that we don’t think/feel/etc alone – in a box, that we -with others- are in that an entity, alive. It matters what others think/feel/observe/etc. Consensus is organic. Community is Aquarian.
Systems like 4th way evolve because it is held in the beings of people. Languages evolve – it is a meme. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme). The system was carried in top down organizations of people – there was a leader and then others. Here and GF it is carried by an evolving changing community. We may miss chances to be the best possible community but that is to be accepted because the community is self organizing with consciousness and conscience – facilitated by the internet. The whole issue of the internet as opening new pathways between people is part of the meme. We evolve together.
I don’t think this negates our own spiritual pathways, or efforts, or whatever. It is the next step. The physical brain reflects this as new evolutions are added to the old, the old may shrink in proportion to the whole, but it is not discarded.
_____
Please excuse me if this makes no sense. It was difficult for me to write in words because right now, for me, it is in the realm of emotional thinking and I can’t quite catch it. I didn’t approach it logically also. I am so glad you are all here!
74 Martin from Berlin
You can join Graduate’s network and “share” with AG.
It has far less to do with fear than common sense. To repeat, AG said to William “you are right to ban me”. Why don’t you email him and tell him he’s wrong smart ass.
What is it about AG’s own words that you are having difficulty understanding?
74
Are you in Berlin now? Are your assets on the table? I suspect that the more magnanimous people are those with the least to lose.
74
“Fear kept us in the FOF and now we use fear to keep others out of the Greater Fellowship.”
Horseshit. Not “others”, just the present litigious lawyer for the FOF.
Most people who are for banning AG said that with a change of position (either leaving the FOF or no longer counsel for the FOF) they would all be quite willing to send an invitation, including myself.
Are you just skipping around the posts or are you informing yourself of the whole breadth of the conversation?
#56 A former student
I love reading your stuff. I really admire you for overcoming the stuff you have had to deal with. Gradguates pissed me off big time with that last post to you.
You wrote: “Ideology in and of itself is not proof of whether a system of concepts is correct. To make this illogical jump is to say that any systematic body of concepts that is any philosophy that has ever existed must of itself be false.”
Yes! That is what I think, and as each letter hits this page it immediately becomes false. This is my opinion. Everything Shakespear wrote is false. Everything Walt Whitman wrote is false. Everything Jesus said is false.
It has everthing to do with “Self-remembering”. with being “Awake” and does not have to do with what works for others and what doesn’t work for others. It is wonderful to think about stuff. I think about all kinds of stuff. Different theories on different scales, different realms, dimensions, states and shit like that. It’s a hoot. Politics, economics, botany, chemistry, physics, sex, work, whether if I pick this booger and eat it and someone sees me will I be embarassed (well that hasn’t come up for a while).
IMO if I am “seeing” something in the world (including myself) I have purchased what someone had previously put on the market. Simple as that.
Am I “seeing” a “martial” or a “gemini”? Am I “seeing” an introvert or an endomorph? Am I “seeing” a demon or a nuersosis? Is one conceptual model better, more complete, than another? Sure, probably, I don’t know.
I said before, IMO we are always going to interpret our experience through a conceptual framework. We best make it as big as possible.
IMO for the majority of those involved in this little arena here the 4th way system is a hundred wet blankets smothering their selves.
I am retarded. I am an idiot. I am nothing. If I am lucky I will continue to move in that direction.
74 Martin from Berlin.
I agree we are greater than that and part of greatness is to know what to avoid.
People do get bitten by sharks so dont let them in your swimming pool!
How much time have you spent around this man?
Do you know him on a personal level?
But its not about the man its about his role in the fof.
He is responsible for helping to keep Butman supplied with meat, in this case pork sausages attached to shocked aspirants to something higher, by helping him to remain “above the law.”
When he stops this I will personally invite him in and embrace him like a long lost brother! until then I will treat him as a criminal.
” a mensch is just a mensh da da da da da da.”
Its commendable that you are so open and forgiving, perhaps thats because on a personal level you dont have anything to forgive, but extend your person to the others who have suffered at his hands, study him.
You are a loving considerate person, consider those who will jump out of the swimming pool if he jumps in, and why.
To make it personal consider this scenario.
You have a son who you love very deeply, he is seduced by butman because butman is kept in operation by this shark. Now tell me honestlly are you still so forgiving when your son is trying to deal with this?
Honestly?
If you really would feel exactly the same way and forgive him without his remorse of conscience and alteration of behaviour accordingly then you are bigger hearted than I am.
By the way this actually happened to a dear and a very gentle friend of mine so its not just idle speculation!
I will forgive him when he no longer supports such things and not before, my love in this instance is very definitely conditional. ” I will cuddle you Hannibal Lector but only when you stop skinning people.”
Love to you my very loving, naive and well wishing friend. Cy.
80
Well said Cy.
Hi Bruce and Cyclops,
ok it was just a try to see if anybody was in for forgiveness, I guess not :-)
So cool down, sounds like you guys have made up your mind.
I must admit I never had a negative experience with AG and the hole show is so long ago for me and has nothing to do with my current live that I can not relate to all the excitement of the virtual appearance of AG. To me it feels we make him bigger than he is. Does he really have such power?
Not in my world. But what do I know.
So I leave you two warriors back on your battleground.
As we discussed on the GF, Forgiveness is indeed a biggie, and I agree.
We’re talking about practical application of common sense here. As long as he is legal counsel to the FOF, it is his job to do his nefarious stuff. I’m sure that AG, out of that context, probably has a whole other side. And I hope that is the part that will eventually ascend. I really do wish him well, and I can’t imagine that he is not struggling with his demons. But right now things are the way they are and I think one must act with some semblance of common sense.
Meanwhile, if Abraham wishes to speak for himself, this blog is wide open…
“If I ever opened a trampoline store, I don’t think I’d call it Trampo-Land, because you might think it was a store for tramps, which is not the impression we are trying to convey with our store. One the other hand, we would not prohibit tramps from browsing, or testing the trampolines, unless a tramp’s gyrations seemed to be getting out of control.”
Jack Handey, playing devil’s advocate. (at least for me)
85
Thank God, the voice of sanity.
Friends, here are some thoughts from the days of the French Revolution that may be relevant to our discussion! I extracted them from an alternative new source, http://www.counterpunch.org, their Bastille Day Edition, July 14-15, 2007:
“The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!”
–Camille Desmoulins
“One must frighten those who govern; one must never frighten the people.”
– Antoine Saint-Just
Re: #87
… from an alternative news source, …
Sorry for the ‘typo.’
About the Greater Fellowship, I guess if it cannot embrace a current student, it is as small as the Fellowship it pretends to exceed and encompass…
It was asked earlier about music selections to transition from the fof. I have one:
AC/DC Back in Black on continuous loop for about 6 mos. until the emotional pussification begins to crack and the AG soap opera in your head shuts off.
(“Hell’s Bells” and “Giving the Dog a Bone” are two of my favorites)
Jesus Christ what a bunch of idiots.
89
Bullshit, bullshit meter. You’re missing the bus. It’s about one person, the current legal counsel for the FOF, no one else. It’s a practical matter. There are many current FOF members in the GF. Don’t get your panties in a twist. Unless you want to
More than 57,000 hits was that one of them? And, who are the 57,000. I know one is Bruce and one is Yesri Baba. 300 over at GF, approximately 1,500 at FOF. 57,000 the “What the F am I doing here T-shirt @12.00 ea. x(-) the actual total is a whopping amount.
BS Meter (89) – your guess is incorrect. GF is not about competition in size or greatness with FOF.
GF was originally started (in case you forgot) not with intent to compete or outgrow FOF or even embrace all and everyone.
It was started as a place for FRIENDS in and out of FOF to connect. Meaning, friends invite friends. So in a way, it is not a wide open door for whoever wants to come in. It’s not a PUBLIC network and will not be.
If AG doesn’t even admit who invited him and has not a single friend listed – what business he has on GF? He was already cheating by not showing who invited him.
He got in with an agenda, and it is probably not to connect with old friends.
Get it?
Cathie, Exit Right, KA: Here you go!
http://www.cafepress.com/FoF_busters
Bruce, Janna,
if AG wanted to get in, he could have arranged to do this in any number of ways. there are current and former students on the site. Lot of invitations are floating around–what is the freakin big deal–dont be so small minded. Take an example of JoelF.
95
So we don’t have to reinvent the wheel for you, I suggest you go back to the beginning of this particular discussion both here and on the GF and familiarize yourself with the whole continuum of what has been discussed. You’re jumping in here at this point, and to address your points, some of which are valid considerations, we would have to re-do the past several days of discussion.
Otherwise, your points have already been addressed, and I’m certainly not going backwards for you.
If you wish to simply rant on with your opinion, go to it.
Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one.
BS Meter, you are not getting it. It’s not what somebody wants, it’s more if he is wanted there. He is obviously NOT wanted and it was clearly expressed by majority.
Of course he can break in some other way, just like a thief still can break in a locked house.
What’s your point, anyway.
Hello All.
One way to approach the Goldman issue is to calmly and realistically examine what he could potentially accomplish litigiously.
Is anyone doing anything illegal on this blog or on the Greater Fellowship forum? In example, who would he attempt to sue? For what? How?
If someone says that Robert Burton manipulated him sexually, would the Fellowship lawyer attempt to take that person to task? Too dangerous with Robert’s reputation!
Would he attempt to take an enormous group to court for not agreeing with Robert? Shut the boards down? Accuse 500 people of slander? Give them all million dollar settlements to be quiet?
Although it’s difficult to see a legitimate legal angle with which he’d potentially wreak havoc, it’s definitely naïve to perceive him as an innocent. The letters that he posted here and the e-mails that were reprinted by “xena” (593) (4), were cleverly and carefully composed and contained legal references and negativity about this discussion.
One must face that there is no way the fellowship is pleased with the communication here or on the GF. Would any disagree that the fellowship administration would prefer it if this did not exist since, from their point of view, subordinate enemies are here & on the GF? They’re getting some really bad PR and, without a doubt, would desire that it stop.
One of the 48 Laws of Power is:
Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.
Abraham is following this law by attempting to join a group that does not have his best interests at hand. Should the GF adhere to that law by allowing him in?
Unless Abraham Goldman is beginning his personal process of leaving the fellowship, (which, of course, is a distinct possibility) what motive would he have in breaking school rules, which are clearly still in place, to cavort happily with moon food?
Welcome him in! Despite the fact that I’m a member of the moon food group, I know I’m invincible against any further fellowship shenanigans.
He don’t scare me none. He done don’t have no legal leg to be standin’ on and he done be knowin’ dat.
LL
For me, it’s not so much what or how Abraham G. (is), rather what the subject of his ’symbol’ makes ‘us’, when considering his profile ‘up against’ our own. Do you really need a profile to be yourself; what good does such comparisons really perform in the moment? Do they (the momentary outcome of the comparison) bring us some sort of ‘relief’, a sort of narcissistic ‘I told you so’ to the other self within us? These are questions I ask myself primarily and try to share with the blog.
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Hello ~ (34) My2bits
You wrote ~
“I consider myself a good friend of Abraham, and I respect him and his abilities as a lawyer. As to the parties he chooses to defend, well, that is another matter.”
__________________
To me, actually, “that is another matter” is a buffer (small world avoidance of larger world of self); it is a disclaimer and a warranty, similar to ‘A Limited Lifetime Warranty’…
My2bits, step back a moment, take a bigger look at what propels humanity on this planet ~ division;
in the sense of conscious conscience, how is it possible to convince oneself to love only half a person and not the other half? This is a huge area of endeavor; one I would ask you to please re-consider…
To me, respect comes from a totality (the totality of your being as it is now, which, hopefully radiates such attention towards others as itself senses it ‘deserves’,
a sense that you have spent enough time with another being to have ’seen it all’, the toilet and the antique silverware within the place-setting of another.
I can admire a person as an impression belonging to a particular ‘force’, like ‘The law of the land’, yet, this does not mean I know the person or even the profession;
we’re often attracted the most to that which we cannot mechanically reconcile within ourselves or upon others, i.e., the power of opposites attracting and affirmations.
Many people (when only perceived by Essence) are reflections of their ‘craft’, their ‘profession’, which, to me, means nothing when looking at the man or woman who is most often times simply ‘possessed’ by the demon called Career or ‘I can’t now, this is really important.’
What men and woman do in private, in-between the lines of fire and water, this begins to unfold a larger ’scale & relativity’;
what they adamantly support while being seen, in order to cover up and self-justify the exact contradiction showing itself in their own ‘personal’-'I don’t bring my job home’ (or my home to my job; like certain spiritual egos we know of) selves, this is also to be looked at ~
By reading your post I can see that you do not know Abraham G. as a man, only as a phenomenon of his profession, a profession that mesmerizes millions and thus costs millions to perform and keep up its ‘aura’.
Lawyers (there are some exceptions, then, they’re not lawyers ‘really’) function on the planet as a sort of ‘daddy’ or ‘mommy’ figure, coupled with the mechanical, self-conscience numbing talents of the King of Hearts and The King of Clubs:
for the most part, to me, lawyers have risen by the one aspect that they themselves iconoclastically emit ‘FEAR’…
Fear of self vision,
Fear of getting into the dirt of one’s contradictions (alone),
Fear of telling the truth of one’s real-time feelings,
Fear of crying in front of another for oneself, not in order to get them closer to you,
Fear of going within, with nothing other than the fact that there’s something to do with oneself that this world simply does not support or see as genuine or worthy of pause.
Fear of telling a person how you truly see or feel; regardless of their reputation with those who you ‘wished’ loved you.
Fear of living without ‘wish’, ‘need of what was’, need of what should be’, ‘need of what could or would have been’ only ‘if’…
If, but, well, so what, I and they, you did that, that did you; all chains and briefcases with hand-cuffs,
So much fear, yet this is ‘natural’ when put alongside of ’so much desire for physical things that are inherently embedded with the fact that they will end’;
I would say, no, to this ‘normality’, because due to what I have experienced in my life, it has shown me that this earth and our third dimensional ‘house-holdering’ is a large trap,
even those who polish the trap are trapped with their buff rags and ‘concern for the next generation’ of polishers and ‘chewing one’s legs off to escape’ players.
Whatever a man or woman “chooses to defend” (particularly when it is plainly criminal towards both the innocence, the naiveté and utter ‘at times’ hypnotized child within) is exactly what they, the defenders, ‘within themselves’ have yet to win for themselves…
Lawyers are great at winning for others; at making one’s conscience seem larger than it really is, making conscience look like a phenomenon supported by the American Constitution itself; though it is not,
for a group of men or woman will never be able to predict your conscious direction while taking in ‘all this hunger for form and its destruction’ as something outside one’s self, something that is not as real as your present self perceiving it as ‘what it becomes’ once you approach it with its back turned, not what it usually does, i.e., using our hands to type on the computer’s keyboard or push another’s buttons simply for the sake of needing one’s own buttons pushed in order to gain a sense that ‘I am me so long as They say I am me because I cannot be them.’
Yes, Lawyers are great at winning, from the King of Club or negative half of the King cards side of one’s ‘beef (argument) with another’, yet,
something the media subconsciously chooses to leave out of the daily news is that with every third dimensional ‘win’ there is a third dimensional ‘loss’ (which is also a ‘win’ for painbody, both painbody’s get the same amount of food from the same court case; the only difference in the polarity of the food itself, in a automatic-triad that is:
and to me, any ‘gain’ that is in of itself only a gain through the sacrifice of a ‘loss’ (without objectivity, oftentimes only winning by better lawyers or paid off witnesses, ’settling out of court’ so as to not make either sides compromises ‘public’) means nothing on the level of the individual themselves, for they have once again been ‘doped’ into believing that conscience needs another target than that one it’s scope is mounted to…
Conscience was developed to ‘holy reconcile’ our inner contradictions, our mysterious womb-condition of being within physical bodies that automatically, without our conscious will, do things, say things, that we ourselves would never permit having had happen had we been present to them prior to their automatically leaving through our ‘actions’, ‘words’, or ‘emotions’.
For me, your post is yet another example of what one has performed upon Robert Burton himself (mirroring upon the form of The Fellowship of Friends the very image that one initially joined to work through and let go of as a contradiction transformed;
one, that the FoF now supports as an ongoing acceptance of a ‘religion of lies and ‘holy’ contradictions’;
all in the name of “My students need this friction to awaken.” or that
‘I like him as a teacher of the fourth way ideas’ (long ago)
or that
‘he has supplied an environment for me to have meaningful friendships (while not needing to be his friend and visa versa).
We grow upwards, not ‘up’, there is no end to this spiritual stepping; what Robert Burton is, ‘is’ what Abraham G. is, unfinished impressions, as we all are…
For me, ‘My2bits’, true respect for another is a sense that they themselves will never end and whatever happens down here, stays down here; all that they prescribe to earthly wonder, money, power, etc., stays down here…
And I trust, within this ‘respect’ that they will get something, whatever it is that ‘they need’ or ‘think they need’… after that self-evident occurrence, it’s an open ended, gigantic mystery;
for religion blinds us, from seeing one another as phenomenons and rather, places us within certain frameworks of a divine plan, such as Robert Burton’s “next lifetime, divine coma” non-sense…
Yet, something needs the ‘tomorrow’; yet it’s not ‘you now’ is it?
If cancer did visit me; actually I would say ‘yes’ take this; saying ‘no’ only makes it’s teeth grow.
I would welcome it because I know for certain that this body and all it’s Zeitgeist drama is not what I am about, nor is it reflective of my true inner state and aims.
Beautiful (and sometimes not so beautiful), conscious lovers; their bodies have fallen considerably ill and died: to some, this would seem contradictory, a ’sign’ of some (hidden) weakness (more heaven and hell karma-dope)…
_________________________
Hello ~ (50) Elena
You wrote ~
“I was much surprised at a formal dinner with Girard at the galleria when our friend who is so soft, good willing and kind reacted to my questioning of Robert with a powerfull and angry: “The sequence works,” he would have hit me if he could have and the kind, soft and goodwilling personality dissolved into a ferocious and determined man faced with an enemy.”
_________________
Yes; and within this “surprise” state is another beautiful ’seed’ for a real conscious school to take place within all of us when such revelations happen upon us;
for that ’surprise’ can be the beginning of an awesome ‘pointer’ as to what ‘objective knowledge & phrases’ play affirmative roles ‘for’,
to have us achieve the depth of an inner state within ourselves, to have the sort of patience with one another, that not even the promise of life or death can alter or sway towards something other than doing our conscious ‘best’ as we are here, now:
it also shows the ‘deed’ of Robert Burton’s teaching, that such a contradictory, controversial event would ’seem’ ‘important’ or worthy of conscious participation is truly ‘a pointer’ that the Fellowship’s throne is indeed it’s toilet too.
A real school has no excuses: Robert Burton has even taken the subject of one’s entire lifetime, in this now, and turned it into a ‘not enough’, ‘not now’, ‘later’, affair…
He has turned even the future of a student’s progress into an excuse, for whatever the future will bring, it is still not within the lifetime ‘he’ ‘prescribes’…
thus, he ‘excuses’ them, while simultaneously persecuting them for the very acts and attitudes he himself uses to punish the likewise aspects perceived as a threat to his ‘threat’…
___________
Thank you for your post ~
Welcome back Elena…
________________________
Hello (14) Graduates
You wrote ~
“C influence has left the school and is working with those of us working against the spiritual criminal Burton and his enabling cult followers.
The good will of conscious influences has left the Fellowship of Friends and now works with the graduates of that now dead organization.
One of the central excuses for this action (by “the graduates”) was that people still in the Fellowship of Friends would not feel comfortable in the Greater Fellowship if one of the central figures of the Fellowship was visibly inside the sanctuary. Look at the insanity of such an excuse. If you are a member of an organization (including the GF?) where the central figures so terrify that you are fearful to be seen by them at a location where you might feel safe then you are obviously trapped in psychotic cult. Get out.
_____________________________
Graduates,
On the surface, it’s far too easy a ‘trap’ to get caught up in the obvious veneer of your raw-ness … so, I won’t even go there.
Though, from my heart, I ask you to please be honest with at least yourself and when you go from saying (in effect) ‘The gods are working now with the GF website participants, instead of the FoF’; to then, a few weeks later, state, concerning the same ‘holy chosen’, that ~
“Look at the insanity of such an excuse.”
(Excuses, insanities?… from the gods? or you?)
This is what happens when we take sides, without staying in the middle, within some now-anchor; such things occur and show us that there is a certain ‘opportunist’ within all of us, that buffers (ignores) what it just said less than a week ago and goes with (using the same passion) the exact opposite or what it ‘passionately’ saw then as ‘the sheet’…
At least admit your change of mind… this would serve us all and especially you.
If you did acknowledge the ‘change of sides’, I did not see it and apologize for the possible ‘off the target’ aim;
yet, to me, far from the objective denying force of being retarded or ‘below average’, there is a much greater area of darkness that gets within us, that we may need to be watchful for on this path, that is ~
when we ‘pretend’ to be advocates of both ‘the professional baseball pitcher’ and ‘the hand grenade factory’ he owns; calling it ‘cool’.
_____________________________
Hello (82) ~ Martin from Berlin
You wrote ~
“Hi Bruce and Cyclops,
ok it was just a try to see if anybody was in for forgiveness, I guess not :-)
So cool down, sounds like you guys have made up your mind.
I must admit I never had a negative experience with AG and the hole show is so long ago for me and has nothing to do with my current live that I can not relate to all the excitement of the virtual appearance of AG. To me it feels we make him bigger than he is. Does he really have such power?
Not in my world. But what do I know.
So I leave you two warriors back on your battleground.”
_____________________________
Hello Martin (Martin C.?)
If it is (Martin C.) then I know you pretty well, my friend, we are all, at some points on the path addicted to such logic as what you use in the above post: I have certainly been there myself.
You wrote ~
“…it was just a try to see if anybody was in for forgiveness, I guess not.” (then you smiled about it (?))
Feeling ’smug’ won’t keep you growing in life, nor on this blog site; I ’should’ know and I sense I do.
You wrote that line with a sort of ’soft tongue in cheek’ suggesting that you have ‘forgiven’, yet,
how is it that you have ‘forgiven’ a man or being, who in your next sentence you state ~ “I must admit I never had a negative experience with AG and the hole show is so long ago for me and has nothing to do with my current live…” (?)
Then, after ’seeming’ to be sure of what you ask of Bruce and Cyclops to do from their truer inner being (as you have hinted you can do, albeit with having no prior ‘whole experience with AG on both sides of your lower centers-reflectors) you write ~
“But what do I know.”
Enough to advise others of what you yourself cannot actualize?
Hummm… I wonder where that kind of ‘knowing’ comes from?
Ah… Martin, what’s going on here?
Do you know that during the American Civil War there were ‘certain families’ that would picnic 100 yards away from the actual battles taking place, watching it, like TV, oftentimes betting on which side would fall?
If there is such a thing as reincarnation or spirit possession, I would advice you to get yourself to a witch doctor and fast; there’s some voodoo juju going on in their, possibly without our permission.
And don’t let the ‘fact’ that you are or are not ‘Martin C.’ stop this sharing we’re experiencing; I sense the shoe still fits, no matter who you are.
_____________________________
Hello ~ (26) Vera.mente
You wrote ~
“Somehow admitting AG to the GF feels more like being in the fof again!
There is no perfection.”
___________________
I can roll with the last line; although, as far as I know, admitting AG to the GF would not have the prerequisites that the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burton prescribes upon those playing “The Return of the Prodigal Son”-affirmative-role, i.e.,
Bend over, take this, figuratively and physically; Oh! while I am back here I’ll take that wallet, you won’t be needing it where you’re going and BTW, welcome back from having been objectively excommunicated to HELL; sorry, I didn’t tell you about the rain-checks, that’s in our official church canon BTW, I filled it’s barrel up with concrete a long time ago so that no one, just loitering around the ‘Town Hall’ could go shooting any balls I have not lifted and tested as worthy of ‘creating a hole in my theories’ myself.
Rosy Bruises
_________________________________
Hello (20) ~ Veronicapoe
What you wrote about the ‘work-language’ is only applicable to a School of Relative Awakening; in a real school, as is ‘evident’ in real-life even, deeds show the worth of the words, not the words:
in the Fellowship of Friends, it’s the worth of the words, the worth of possibilities and the coffee table talk of struggle, that’s most revered, not the deeds, nor the actual application of what the fourth way knowledge implies;
this returns one back to Robert Burton’s first lie concerning his celibacy:
so, it’s better for Robert Burton to tell the ‘truth’ about dead people and their ‘wishes’ than to have they themselves (as their own ‘deed’ or ‘proof’) to have to answer to concerning his own hypocritical and profoundly false spiritual intentions, which do not align at all to even one of the wiseacred 44 he’s chosen.
The work language was and will (in spirit) always be secondary to (its deeds) that occur and move within us when one is using it, not being used by it to become segregated and special.
___________________
Hello (586/14) Cyclops ~
Spasiba Tovaritch to you too!
So… I did it; I watched the whole thing…
I will write to you soon; just wanted you to know that I cozy-ied up to it just today: still processing.
I like the idea that Christ never existed; yet that won’t keep Robert Burton from saying, sooner, than later,
“Oh, I meant to say that I am the next whoever it was that got actually crucified and died for your sins. Yeah, that’s it; I am whoever it is that you don’t find out was actually not who I think I am to you. Asaf dear, do you have anything to add to that? A. ~ Yes, Robert. R. ~ That’s nice dear; shall we have another quote toke?”
______________________
Love to you all.
Yesri Baba (90)
I would second that motion with a Sunday morning wake up call from AC/DC’s
Hells Bells
Oh,
And don’t forget AC/DC’s “We’ve got Big Balls”…
That one we’ll play while the train takes a sharp left hand turn before Regent Way.
Peter # 9
Abraham Goldman:
18 years ago in the US I had a big problem with some very bad people.
And nobody in the Fellowship of Friends has ever given me so much real help as Abraham Goldman.
He helped me completely for free.
I never thanked him properly for that, so hereby I say to him:
“Thank you, Abraham, you really helped me a lot in those difficult and dark moments. When I was threatened by evil force and had to stay up all-night with a shotgun in my hands to defend the home and the people I was living with. Thank you for writing a letter an for going to the sheriff to explain my situation.”
This was so wonderful I reposted it. I should apologise for being so petty but I do get a kick out of Gregory Goodwin. Thank you Gregory Goodwin for such a great reaction. Thank you also for revealing my true nature to these blog posters and readers. I thought I was fooling all these great intelligent members and former members of the Fellowship of Friends. Now I no longer have to pretend I’m anything but a retarded fool. I may even use that as a new name it has a certain ring. Former student is a bit generic. Retarded fool is certainly easier to live up to than something like Revealer of Great Esoteric Truth, or even say Graduate which seems to imply you learned something. This does bring up a small question about you Greg, which happily your post does a better job of answering than I could ever do.
That is who are you? I mean in one way we know, right, your post tell’s a lot about you. It certainly reveals how shallow the veneerof “the work” and the “system” are and how mucn in imagination you are about what others think of you. Nobody probably noticed my slight, which was questioning your use of work language to say little of consequence, probably because it just isn’t that important. Neither what I write in general and whatever my opinion is on anything least of all you is of especial significance. You made sure 10 times as many readers paid attention and had to ask themselves the question which is “Is Gregory Goodwin communicating anything important” . How well did you answer that question?
Most members of the Greater Fellowship post their name and address and phone #. You Gregory Goodwin don’t , I do, Bruce does. Why don’t you? Are you worried about collection agencies or have you insulted enough people on the internet that you don’t feel safe letting people know who you are, where and a phone number? Say Greg why have a silly disagreement on the internet when we live so close. Any time you want to get together give me a call I live nearby in Berkeley lots of good coffee shops. Just check out my page on the Greater Fellowship.
on 14 Jul 2007 at 4:09 am33 Graduates
a former student 12
“…as it is possible to say nothing worth anything using the language ( try reading Graduates posts)…”
***************************
(I contemplated posting the following as a reply to this fool once before, but inner considered the reaction I’d receive for picking on the mentally handicapped)
Look carefully at the following words: Scott you are mildly retarded. This is not a gratuitous insult, I mean it literally.
You are not functioning with the same quality of equipment that the average person is endowed with. Do not imagine that you are capable of generating an exacting line of logic and therefore able to carry on a reasonable argument. You are insistently and aggressively out-spoken only because you are damaged by what is commonly known as narcissistic personality disorder, which commonly accompanies ‘borderline psychosis’. Quite likely you are also an alcohol and substance abuser (my guess, not my accusation) in a futile attempt to self-medicate in order to relieve the discomfort of your psychological symptoms. Pay to have an IQ test conducted on yourself and carefully consider the results in comparison with the average citizen and then shut the fuck up
Dear All
Thanks Joel, very much appreciated.
Cyclops Thanks too.
Graduate: Can you read your post please again:
Unkind, superficial, not addressing the v-s, G.C. Ask the LCS about AG. Formatory and judgmental as they say in the fellowship of friends.
Maybe you are lashing out because you have some grief issues…very human reaction and helpful to look at. Books from Stephen Levine might be helpful so you can heal yourself and not be so hurtful on the white screen. Good luck
As a wise fiend states; when you think you are right, an alarm bell should go of.
Hurry in this case of getting Abe in, is complete unnecessary, in a year or two if AG leaves the fellow ship of friends or when he is supporting and talking to ex students why not. TIME
Love to all of you and happy to hear Sheik good to hear, you are kicking and alive. ENJOY.
“I believe that you are not sufficiently rigorous in your own reasoning; you often miss entirely, or misunderstand, the main theme of a discussion. You take ideas & treat them according to your own inconsistent home-grown & idiosyncratic understandings.”
And proud of it. However you imply that you are capable of a more disciplined line of reasoning and arguement but do not do so. What then is the point? Am I inconsistant is my approach homegrown thank you, some of the best things ever said to me. The sad thing is that you would say this as a bad thing.
“VeronicaPoe’s contributions are based on formal understandings, your contributions seem undisciplined and are peppered with a mish mash of contradictory ideas.”
There was nothing coherent in Veronica’s post and yes that is my opinion. mIt failed to address the underlying questions which are relevant to the blog . Is consciousness possible? Is the system objective knowledge. It questioned parts without connecting them to any larger whole. It is similiar to yours with a thin veneer of knowledge of form but little content.
“Your attempts to use the language and concept labels of formal logic, scientific method, etc. backfire on you by revealing a lack of formal education – at least in this area – which lack may explain your susceptibility & over commitment to the rigid conceptual paradigm that it is served up in the FOF.”
Now that pisses me off why would you abuse perfetly innocent words with good honest meanings to say nothing. My thinking is not at all similiar to the Fellowship you mark yourself a shallow fool to imply that wasn’t it you who just wrote.
“You take ideas & treat them according to your own inconsistent home-grown & idiosyncratic understandings” which is true? they are mutually exclusive. Do you know what that means? They cannot both be true if either is true the other must be false. This is classic logic. So one or the other is true which? Is this an example of your well educated thinking ability? You cannot even maintain an inner logic in your own critique of my reasoning”
“Incidentally, the effort to elevate system ideas beyond their intended scope undermines their real value. The Fourth Way ideas have a subtler & specialized utility – for the spiritual seeker only. You seem to manifest the egotistical need to attribute the system of ideas – to which YOU attach YOUR identity – a much greater universality and significance than is actual.”
Here is a central issue. You challange my right to have an opinion, my way of presenting my opinion, and now the validity of my own spiritual understanding. In general this is a topic in which a certain respect for others helps as we all try or best what is your veiw? You make this because the unspoken assumption is that you know the truth? Well that’s falseor you would model a different affect than that of arrogant one who knows.
“Perhaps your Ego-Identity is discomforted by the notion that your life exists within a conceptual framework that – in the eyes of many – would brand you as a “weirdo” or an ignoramus -”
What is an Ego identity? Did you invent this? Is this your own new language of higher consciousness. Freud used the term Ego as one of a number of different parts. This is such juvinile crap if you disagree why not say so .”in the eyes of many” says who ? You? Now you move from Esoteric knower of great things to knowledge of the masses. There is actually a T.V. game in which you can win 10 million dollars for being able to guess the results of polls. You are missing a great opportunity. So did your post have any point at all other than to show your brillant cutting wit and great grasp of the language? I notice it was beneath you to address the question at hand. For those in the back rows the question is Self remebering, is it real, The system is it objective knowledge.
on 14 Jul 2007 at 8:47 pm
65 Veronicapoe
writes
VP wrote “The fourth way ideology is a blueprint for hierarchical social organization. There are “men number 4 and then there are those above them who have authority. Don’t kid yourself that this point is peripheral. It’s central.”
I disagree. The system as interpreted by the Fellowship of Friends to justify its criminal activities justifies a male dominated hierarchy not much different than the Mormons.
This is not the systems fault. The system is just a blueprint as has been said to higher ideas. A man #4 is not over, better than or in charge of man #1, #2, or #3 objectively. Try to separate the attitudes about what the system is from what the Fellowship has been teaching. Understand this I left the Fellowship for my own reasons, for my conscience. I put aside the system for a least 15 years and came back to it from a different perspective. I returned to school and studied a number of perspectives none caused me to disprove the system. If you have not allowed this much accept the possibility that time can bring a changed in perspective. You do not have to accept my truth just accept the possibility of other truths. It is very much a form of wrong thinking propagated in the Fellowship that there is one truth. Not only are their many they change both for ourselves and others. Even within one day we may have different truths.
“When I encounter ideological statements about “the work” or “the system,” I have an impulse to raise the consciousness, so to speak, about the fact that they are dealing in the currency of value judgments…”
after admitting you wrote about your opinion as if they were facts you do it again. These facts may be your truth now but was this always true? If not was there a process of changing your view, a change in attitudes. If so it does not make whatever your currant understanding is a fact just your opinion. And you are under no obligation to raise anyone’s consciousness in regards to the subject unless asked. Your welcome to do your best for me but I am a difficult student I demand proof and question openly.
“Ideologies by their very nature condition what people observe.”
You have again returned to the assumption that your calling something an ideology makes it so. You still call the system and ideology without any real proof.
There are two questions I was trying to connect to this one
“Let me ask you, sincerely, are you talking about “the practice of ‘divided attention’”? The thing with the arrows in the Ouspensky writing? If you are, we can talk about that. ”
Apparently you do have a difficulty because that is the subject. and you still have not addressed it. It is very simple If it is real to you in any way shape or form then it gives a value to the system. If not then certainly the system is just an ideology at least for you. The second question is connected to the first “is the system objective knowledge”?
Self remembering is real for me. The system works for me. This has little to do with the Fellowship or Robert Burton. I left the Fellowship 27 years ago and have found my own way for better or worse. If my “style” and “thinking” lack the discipline of Academics that’s fine. If it is idiosyncratic, that’s fine. You or anyone else can chose to agree or disagree. I am however not trying to take anyone’s money by giving seminars to those poor suckers who still have a need to try and buy enlightenment. I do not tell anyone to believe anything I say or write. My only contribution to the discussion is to be me. I care about whether anyone reads what I write, or what they might think of my writing but not to an overwhelming degree. I am involved in my own process and in general the blog is not a King of hearts affair. That’s OK I have no one telling how I should act or feel. The system is simply a tool.
You have attitudes, beliefs, opinions, grow up, even if you are 100% correct you neither can nor have the right to tell anyone else what is right for them. That is that Fellowship of Friends , Robert Burton, Saturn Dominance, I know what’s best for you attitude and it is offensive. It is offensive in Robert, it is offensive in his “inner circle” and it is offensive to any one else who might have a different opinion. Having a strong opinion, even believing I’m right is not a bad thing. When it reaches the degree of not allowing other opinions to exist it is very bad.
VP wrote “I take your point to be that the utility of “self remembering” is not open to discussion. If you don’t want to talk about it, that’s OK by me. I do not need to have you adopt my values and we are allowed to disagree.”
It is only partly my point. It is also what makes the system different than an ideology. This is an if question “if the system is objective knowledge” what then? Is there any test? Only self remembering. But here is the Key , again an if question “if self remembering is possible” then can you explain it to someone who cannot experience it? The answer is no. This is all that separates man #4 from man #1,#2 and #3. If you can make an effort and be more conscious right now. Then you are a man #4. This comes with no robe of authority, no pay and benefit package, no pension plan or any external effect at all. It is just what it is . The ability to change your own consciousness. You may be a “man #4 with adjective” such as young man #4, failed Man #4 , even a stupid retarded Man #4 but all it means is the ability to self remember. Self remembering is the ability to change. It is the means of change, the aim of change and a result of change.
I paid with my time and efforts for one thing from Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends. That was Self Remembering. I gained a lot lost a lot and got it back. Now I refuse to let anyone take away what I have. Usually I will not say anything about this . However this is the right time and place for honesty.
In post #79 Yesri baba wrote
#56 A former student
now a proudly retarded fool
“I love reading your stuff. I really admire you for overcoming the stuff you have had to deal with. Graduates pissed me off big time with that last post to you.”
That post made my day. There is nothing I could possibly say that could in any way make him look worse than he did himself.
You wrote: “Ideology in and of itself is not proof of whether a system of concepts is correct. To make this illogical jump is to say that any systematic body of concepts that is any philosophy that has ever existed must of itself be false.”
Yes! That is what I think, and as each letter hits this page it immediately becomes false. This is my opinion. Everything Shakespeare wrote is false. Everything Walt Whitman wrote is false. Everything Jesus said is false.
It has everything to do with “Self-remembering”. with being “Awake” and does not have to do with what works for others and what doesn’t work for others.
I agree in principal. However I chose to disagree with Veronica Poe because its fun . She is worth the time and effort to provoke a bit. And then look what you get. Her response was meaningful, considerate, intelligent what I usually call useful. The topic covers many aspects of what the blog is about, The use of language, the system, the Fellowship, judgmental attitudes, opinion vs. fact, is self remembering possible?
in post # 82 Martin from Berlin
Hi Bruce and Cyclops,
OK it was just a try to see if anybody was in for forgiveness, I guess not :-)
So cool down, sounds like you guys have made up your mind.
It is fine to forgive Abe, fine to accept that it his role and also fine to not let his corrupt lying ass any where near me. on
in post # 84 Tim Campion
“Meanwhile, if Abraham wishes to speak for himself, this blog is wide open…”
and he is notably absent. This is a perfect forum for him in his role as “lord high protector”
He is no fool however as he knows that he could not avoid difficult questions and the Fellowship’s only viable strategy is to avoid any venue where certain questions are asked.
in post # 89 Bullshit Meter wrote
“About the Greater Fellowship, I guess if it cannot embrace a current student, it is as small as the Fellowship it pretends to exceed and encompass…”
I have coined an expression for just such a statement “dumber than a Rock” this is like H- 15568.
The Greater Fellowship is an online Network. The Fellowship of Friends has been marketed as the true conscious teaching of the Age with a conscious teacher. The GF has taken nothing and damaged no lifes. The FOF has a policy of institutionalized criminal behavior not limited to the teachers sexual manipulation of students and private use of funds but to a whole structure of criminals who engage in a conspiracy to defraud the FOF membership.
67, 104, 107-109 are all newly moderated comments.
Mockingbirds
This morning
two mockingbirds
in the green field
were spinning and tossing
the white ribbons
of their songs
into the air.
I had nothing
better to do
than listen.
I mean this
seriously.
Mary Oliveira
Well, I’m going to CafePress and buying a T-shirt. On the front will be, ” Stupid retarded man #4″ On the back, “what the F–K am I doing here”.
I hope I dont get sued for any kind of “disabilities act” violation? Should I have to go to court all I would need to explain is , “man #4″.
GOOD MORNING BLOG!!!! No, Toto, we’re not really in …but
lots of fire going on… tee hee
Hummm, I can’t get into the GF site this morning, not even my personal info… Ning says invalid request? Is this just my computer illliteracy coming to light, or is anyone else having this problem? E-mailed WH for help. Hummm, again, not fun…Hugs to all!
Amanda
Veronicapoe: “The fourth way ideology is a blueprint for hierarchical social organization. There are “men number 4 and then there are those above them who have authority. Don’t kid yourself that this point is peripheral. It’s central.”
A former student: “I disagree. The system as interpreted by the Fellowship of Friends to justify its criminal activities justifies a male dominated hierarchy not much different than the Mormons. This is not the systems fault. The system is just a blueprint as has been said to higher ideas. A man #4 is not over, better than or in charge of man #1, #2, or #3 objectively.”
Veronicapoe responds: Surely the “work books” are permeated with ideas that imply, or even state baldly, a social power dynamic, to the following effect: “In schools, Men #4 have less power, ‘higher’ men, who run the schools, have more.” Do you dispute this?
Some simple questions:
1. if, as you contend, hierarchical social organization is not part of “the system,” how do you differentiate in a principled way between what you think “the system” is and what was taught in the Fellowship? I mean, if it is in a particular “work book,” it *is* a system idea?
2. Is the idea that “the system” comes from “higher mind” a system idea? Can it be confirmed as a true idea? Can it be disconfirmed as a false idea?
A former student: “… accept the possibility that time can bring a change[] in perspective.
Veronicapoe: I agree.
Veronicapoe: “When I encounter ideological statements about “the work” or “the system,” I have an impulse to raise the consciousness, so to speak, about the fact that they are dealing in the currency of value judgments…”
A former student: . . . [Y]ou are under no obligation to raise anyone’s consciousness in regards to the subject unless asked.
Veronicapoe: I am not under any obligation to raise anyone’s consciousness, but sometimes I undertake to try.
Veronicapoe: “Ideologies by their very nature condition what people observe.”
A former student: You have again returned to the assumption that your calling something an ideology makes it so. You still call the system and ideology without any real proof.
There are many things that would make for stimulating dialogue, but my undertaking to prove to you that “the system” is an ideology is not one of them. “The system” is a particular map or set of maps, a particular worldview or family of worldviews, a constellation of ideas, assumptions and practices about life, spiritual development, a set of values explicit and implicit about what’s worth doing, what’s worth knowing, what’s worth being. In my view that it is an ideology is a pretty elementary proposition.
You say, “self-remembering” makes it different and takes it out of the realm of an ideology. I respect that this is your opinion, but it is not a position that has any logical force. It is essentially a mystical argument, an announcement that this is incontrovertible and is not open to examination or debate. So, as I say, if you don’t want to have it examined, that’s fine. Maybe someone else wants to take up the banner.
114
“The system” is a particular map or set of maps”
I would agree with that if it’s changed to “a system” and the system in question is closer to it’s original form than the FOF is to the “system” ideas as G propounded them.
“a particular world view or family of world views, a constellation of ideas, assumptions and practices about life, spiritual development, a set of values explicit and implicit about what’s worth doing, what’s worth knowing, what’s worth being. In my view that it is an ideology is a pretty elementary proposition.”
I view it more as a series of “temporary” beliefs and assumptions that are utilized to facilitate the effective use of “a system”, any system ( we are assuming it’s in a unbastardized form). The need to maintain those modes of viewing everything after one has moved from “a system” is subjective. Some will abandon all, some will carry certain things onward, some will find the beliefs only valid in the limited space of systeming.
Any exposition of “what is” and “what is not” is intellectual masturbation if it goes beyond one’s own experiences and is assumed to extend to other’s experience.
I’m able to get on GF site again, weird… well, off to the barn to work. Still interested if anyone else has a problem with the site.
116
Occasionally there are site problems, like a while ago. They usually fix it pretty quickly. It’s not you.
To Uno’s post #101, from my2bits:
Thank you, Uno, for your words about buffers and the nature of true respect. They are resonating and may shine some light on a whole ‘complex’ of buffers that have been allowing me to justify much of the ethical dissonance that exists in the Fellowship.
“This is not the systems fault. The system is just a blueprint as has been said to higher ideas. A man #4 is not over, better than or in charge of man #1, #2, or #3 objectively. Try to separate the attitudes about what the system is from what the Fellowship has been teaching.”
“The system is simply a tool.”
“Ideology in and of itself is not proof of whether a system of concepts is correct.
Dear Retarded Fool, (that was fun to write but you might want to get a better blog name) ;-)
The system cannot be completely isolated from ideology because the system is used by human beings. And the manner in which other human beings use that particular system count.
There is an acorn. Then it gets into some dirt. And it rains. It sprouts. Sunshine. Time. A trunk forms and branches and leaves. Lots of us leaves.
Some seeds (systems) grow true. Apple seeds, for example, grow highly varying plants. But even growing true each blossoming of the system/seed is unique. Seeds themselves evolve, adapting to the environments.
The leg bone is connected to the thigh bone…roots are connected to the leaves. Those connections are vital and real. Isolating a system from that which uses the system is OK but it is also vital to look at how the *connections tend to happen*.
Christianity, Islam, TEND to produce societies where women are not valued very well. Of course there are exceptions and women are valued in certain ways. But the overall TENDENCY is this. I think one of the first connections is for a system is an emotional link where value systems are established.
This is not, for me, an exercise in logic and, basically, I don’t understand your logic. Sorry. Maybe I’m not getting what you are saying and maybe I shouldn’t be posting here. Still, it is a measure of the seed/system to look at what it manifests. There will be anomalies (fof?) but the consideration of the TENDENCIES is valid.
oh, and in the consideration of the TENDENCIES it is necessary to look at how others use a system.
(forgot to write that part)
Hi Observer:
I’d been thinking about your posts and questions, and some of the responses from some of my friends, and thought I would fill in a few blanks. This may end up being a bit long, but hopefully there’ll be something useful in it for you.
I’m not sure what part of all that you’ve been reading you consider to be ‘pseudo-philosphical spiritual nonsense psychobabble’, but many of the original reasons for all of us being in the fof were based on the ideas of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. They have a pedigree of sorts in the spiritual side of life on earth, and for people interested in that to have finally found a group interested in intensively experimenting with those ideas and practices was like winning the lottery.
One of the ideas that G&O spoke about was the concept of a ‘magnetic center’ that may form in a person. Think of it as a group of interests a person might have in spiritual matters (that may take many different forms). I am sure you know some like that, who always seem to be questioning things, trying to find meaning in existence, etc. I’m sure you also know many who are completely happy without giving any thought whatsoever to things like that. Without judging in the least either group, those who happen to be stuck with a searching and questioning nature are a little bit cursed in that simple existence doesn’t add up for them. So, they are driven to find something to help them answer (or maybe even first formulate) their questions. To give one example of what that can result in, in my case, I found myself having circumnavigated the globe by ship and train before I had even graduated from university (and it never really stopped after that.) It wasn’t anything I really can take credit for from one point of view — I was pretty much ‘driven’ to do it, driven to search.
Over the past 2000 years many of the people who struck out searching ended up in one form or another of monastic christianity. What G&O presented was a system for hopefully ‘awakening’ (borrowing a popularized idea from some eastern traditions) while immersed in the hurly burly of modern western life. No retiring to a cave, no need to enter a monastery and take vows of silence, etc. Many of us had read the books they had written, were attracted to the possibilities and the apparent cohesiveness of the ideas, and hoped to find a ’school’, which they insisted was indispensible. At some point we found the fof, and joined. For some, finding a group was enough — they uncritically jumped in and set to work; for others we kind of tested the waters first. I ended up staying on because of the people. To finally be around many people with similar interests, willing to devote themselves to what we thought was the task at hand, was a heady experience. That there were some odd aspects to it (exclusionary attitudes, money, etc. etc.) could be easily dismissed for most of us because 1) there was too much else going on, both internally and externally; 2) most of the oddities were less visible; 3) most of the oddities were far less extreme 20 years ago than they are now.
Now, however, the oddities are very visible, very extreme, yet many of us are still in the fof, and as I understand it you are wondering how on earth that can be. Well, psychologists and sociologists have over the past decades have had a field day delving into these questions, and their have been many posts here discussing that. One idea that may help you understand is that the system that G&O presented was based on the idea of ‘verification’, that you were not to simply accept anything on faith. It has gradually become clear that the fof is not that any longer, and is now very much like a religion. I and many others did not join a religion (at least we didn’t intend to). Many of us find ourselves like frogs in a kettle of water that has gradually gotten very hot, What is obvious to outsiders is now obvious to us.
So, why aren’t we all jumping out? Well, many have built their lives around the fof. Until recently it was a very rich experience up here in the hills. Much of our lives here revolved around the arts, in one form or another, and for a musician, painter or actor to be able to actively pursue their passion, well, that is a little like the searchers I mentioned earlier finally finding a group. Those of us who aren’t ‘artists’ (not many of us are really that great, but there are many who are competent) had a lot to do going to all the concerts, watching the plays, building the amphitheatre, building the vineyard, etc. All of this was done with the hopeful goal of ‘awakening’ — that it was possible to have a rich life yet still achieve a spiritual goal. There were lots of other reasons for all we did, mostly added on by an armageddon type of prophecy from the leader. As many took it seriously as didn’t just so you don’t think we’re all loopy. :)
Finally, a further reason why many hesitate to leave is because for a long time there has been a requirement of sorts (taken seriously by many) to not have contact with those who leave. This was not an invention of the fof — it was a requirement in Gurdjieff’s group. It had a purpose, and many (most?) of the current and former members now think it is no longer useful. This is yet another reason why the exodus is quite large now.
Well, I warned you it might be long. I hope that helped answer some of your questions.
Any Body available for a Blow Job in this Blog?
regards,
B
Remember yourself allways and everywhere.
Theophan the Recluse: Always have fuel within reach, and as soon as you notice that the fire of zeal is waning, take a log from your spiritual woodpile and renew the fire, and all will go well.
Arabian Nights: You are weary, and must want to refresh yourself.
Bernard of Clairvaux: Flowers must be frequently renewed; fresher blooms must always be added, because they soon lose their scent and beauty.
Buddha: The work never finishes; there is no end to this work.
Muhammad: Keep your belief fresh and renew it constantly.
New Testament, Romans 12:2 – Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Shabistari: Renew your belief at every moment as long as unbelief still dwells in your heart.
in post #114 Veronicapoe writes
“Surely the “work books” are permeated with ideas that imply, or even state baldly, a social power dynamic, to the following effect: “In schools, Men #4 have less power, ‘higher’ men, who run the schools, have more.” Do you dispute this?”
Yes I do, No where in any work book is anything like this said. I have all the major books in E-Book format and there is nothing of the kind. I read all these books and studied them 30 years ago. I reread them and debated then 5 years ago in depth. This is your interpretation of the system filtered through the experience of the Fellowship. This subject requires primary research go to the source. Reread “In Search of the Miraculous” and “The 4th Way”. I just looked up some material there is no reference to a social structure? You are imagining something. Reread the books try and get past the conditioning of the Fellowship and “think in a new way”. If on the other hand you think you can find a reference quote it.
In “In Search of the Miraculous” Peter Ouspensky quotes a talk by Gurdjieff on the division of man into 7 degree’s. This is in Chapter 4 beginning on page #78 to page 81. There is nothing about schools and a hierarchy.
Your question #1 brings us back to circular reasoning. The idea of a social hierarchy being taught as part of the system is in no “work book”. If as you imagine it is quote it. Both “ISOTM” and “TFW” are available as E-books at nominal charge. if you really can’t afford them I will send you a copy .Until you can quote a source stop using it as a proven fact and at least add “to my understanding”, “In my experience” or “it is my opinion”.
From “In Search of the Miraculous” Chapter 4 page 79
“The division of man into seven categories, or seven numbers, explains thousands of things which otherwise cannot be understood. This division gives the first conception of relativity as applied to man. Things may be one thing or another thing according to the kind of man from whose point of view, or in relation to whom, they are taken.
“In accordance with this, all the inner and all the outer manifestations of man, all that belongs to man, and all that is created by him, is also divided into seven categories………………………………….
“The same order of division into seven categories must be applied to everything relating to man. There is art number one, that is the art of man number one, imitative, copying art, or crudely primitive and sensuous art such as the dances and music of savage peoples. There is art number two, sentimental art; art number three, intellectual, invented art; and there must be art number four, number five, and so on”
What this is referring to is “right thinking” the application of the Law of Octaves to Humanity as a whole. It is not judgmental, does not endorse a hierarchy it is stating facts.
Question #2
Is the idea that “the system” comes from “higher mind” a system idea? Can it be confirmed as a true idea? Can it be disconfirmed as a false idea?
Yes, the idea of higher mind is part of the system.
From “The Fourth Way” Chapter 1 page 8
“BEFORE I BEGIN TO EXPLAIN TO YOU in a general way what this system is about, and to talk about our methods, I want particularly to impress on your minds that the most important ideas and principles of the system do not belong to me. This is chiefly what makes them valuable, because if they belonged to me they would be like all other theories invented by ordinary minds—they would give only a subjective view of things.”………………….
This is the opening of the book. The rest of the book is devoted to descriptions of his work with his teacher, Mr. Gurdjieff and his transmission of the knowledge now called the system.
In Chapter 1 on page 12 Ouspensky writes.
So, at the same time as self-observing, we try to be aware of ourselves by holding the sensation of ‘I am here’—nothing more. And this is the fact that all Western psychology, without the smallest exception, has missed. Although many people came very near to it, they did not recognize the importance of this fact and did not realize that the state of man as he is can be changed—that man can remember himself, if he tries for a long time.
The system only makes sense in terms of individual evolution, conscious or spiritual evolution. It is not a blueprint for a social hierarchy. There are a number of ways to prove or disprove the system. You can try self remembering. This is the key. Not anything I say, from your post’s it seems less and less likely you were ever a member of the Fellowship. Perhaps this is my limitation. I cannot imagine why anyone would be a member of The Fellowship of Friends if they did not experience and value self remembering. I especially can not imagine placing ones whole life in the hands of an egotistical sexual predator and corrupt administration if there did not seem to be something of value to be gained.
You have mentioned a number of times that I seem to avoid discussing self remembering. This is false. I bring it up in each post. You avoid it. What ever your position it is valid. Practical however trumps theory. What you think about self remembering does not mean much if it is only theory. Self remembering must be a real personal experience.
We seem to have a different perspective. Mine dates back almost 30 years to when I first read “In Search of the Miraculous” and “The 4th Way”. I read about self remembering and I did it. I also verified that I could not continue. This has not changed. This is the core of my relationship to the system.
If you don’t wish to continue the discussion that’s fine but you do a disservice to those you claim to want to help by contributing to their consciousness. If you are too lazy to make the effort to present what you believe to be a important truth if not “the truth” who will? I mean look at where you leave me after starting this noble attempt to uplift my knowledge and understanding you withdraw, maybe I was almost getting it. Why bother if it does not mean enough to see it through. This is an important topic. Much better than Fellowship bashing which while fun pales after a while. Even Gregory Goodwin baiting is of limited enjoyment but the topic of the system and consciousness is very important. and because it is connected to your own experience inexhaustible.
The system which you question states that it is a law that the lower cannot see the higher. I know Uncle Bob has bastardized this into one more justification for his perversions but it is true. One meaning is that the responsibility for communication and teaching falls on the higher. Another law in this regard is “time is a factor” it takes time for knowledge to travel from a higher to a lower. How could it be different. The Fellowship turns the system upside down and ass backwards to justify it play of crime. This is no more the systems fault than it was Christ’s fault for the inquisition. There is a good reason for discouraging Fellowship members from the study of The Fourth Way. The ideas of the system go against everything the Fellowship has come to represent. The single most important aspect is conscience and individual consciousness and will.
There is no place in the Fellowship for these aspects of individuality to develop.
In case you are confused here are my questions.
1) What is your experience of self remembering. Today. Now.
2) If you are going to reference “The work books” give Chapter and page Numbers if not a direct quote.
Yes I´am
God the creator of everything, now i have to tell you something very important,
The inner mean of life is the selfremembering.
All spirtual or essoteric traditions, are speaking about the same thing, in different ways in different lenguishes, in different ages.
All that Egiptians have been spoke is remember yourself,
All that Sufis have been spoke is remember yourself,
All that Budah have been spoke is remember yourself,
All that Christ spoke is Look firstly for the kingdom of heaven (your own divine presence).
And please put at least a little of resistance to the mechanical manifestations of your own king of clubs.
Do not be Lazy, (sleeper)
make efforts, resist to imagination, unnecesary talk, negative emotions, and identification.
Do some thing, in relation to your own Counsciousness.
Simple Truth
When you wear your work on your sleeve like you do, I’m guessing that you come off to many people here as a phony asshole. Why not try following RB’s advise in relation to ex-students and “keep the space clean”, and focus your pimply hyperboles inward where they belong.
Really, you come off like a real schmuck.
Hey folks, I just got this e-mail, I have no idea how I got it, and I don’t know quite what to make of it, it obviously got to me by accident. Anyway, I thought I’d pass on what appears to be a unique glimpse into the mind of that rare breed, an “Official Keyer”.
As you will see, it is a sort of personal diary of how the author goes about keying, how she (it’s obviously a woman, or a very unusual man) gets insights, but mixed up in it, the discerning reader of way above average intelligence (that’s you!) and good looks (that cuts out the other readers, for sure), can, if paying sufficient attention, probably sort out the parts that will go into the next edition of “Thoughts from the Teacher”, or provide the form for a future meeting. Or not.
_______________________________________
Gosh and darn, it’s past midnight, and I have one more “key” to do. I’m getting fed up with this… what do we have here, oh lord, I have to make something of this cave drawing. Drat, those are hard! Oh, it’s that cave painting I sent on to the guys this morning to be photoshopped! Let’s see, the original looked like this:
http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/4222/rhinomammoth22pw6.jpg
I wonder if they made the changes I suggested… Well here goes. Let’s see. it’s always safe to talk about poop, in fact it’s quite fashionable round here. Think of a number. —O.K.,
THE ESOTERIC SIGNIFICANCE OF THE 12 POOPS
Good, great headline—that’s a strong ‘do’, catches the attention! Next, insert image, here goes, insert — image.
http://www.californianativebulbs.com/HTML/Sequence%20_1.html
Done, La-di-da-di-dah, standard stuff, cut and paste… Yeah, they made the changes—oh darn, they didn’t count the poops right! Darn, darn, darn! Oh well, make the best of it, I guess.
A cave painting from Lascaux, dating from 15,000-13,000 BP, depicts a rhinoceros shitting—or farting, or both—“higher thoughts” condensing out of a jet of hot air? Uh–oh, forgot the wit exercise (but really, that is what it reminds me of). So, what is the significance here? Shitting bricks of gold? Straw, properly digested (throw in something about the Sequence here) turns to gold? All this “keying” is hard, it gives me a headache!
Anyway, back to the rhinoceros turds. Got it—they represent the sequence being droned on and on, fostering imagination by the rhinoceros—the lower self—no wait, that’s not right, there are nine poops, this must mean the rhinoceros is half–way between higher centers and the artist has actually caught it in the process of crystallization! What a poop! What a scoop! This is going to liven up the next meeting, for sure. I wonder if I could wangle a promotion to “Official Angle Giver” on the strength of this? Sigh, dream on, baby, there’s so much competition… but, it was… a lovely dream. One day… Whoa, I was in imagination there for a moment—get back to work!
O.K.! (That darned King of Clubs, always trying to do me down.) Get a cup of coffee—I love the way it amps up the King of Hearts—here goes:
On the right, the newest Russian boy is lying on his back with a Viagra–induced erection, (ooh, a great big one, my panties moisteneth over!) and Our Beloved Teacher, represented by the huge, hairy Bison (symbolizing overwhelming psychological power and that “who cares?” attitude we desperately try to emulate as we squash our silly consciences) is looking back at Influence–C and winking. I swear, the Bison is actually winking. Or is that wanking? The message has become a bit garbled through 150 centuries… hold on… concentrate…o.k., this is the official, and I mean official word, it’s winking, yes, you can see one eye of the bison is winking if you look closely, that’s the sign it is spelt with an “i”. “Eye”-“I”, get it? “Aye, aye”, that means unquestioning obedience to the Teacher, oh, I’m bubbling over with esoteric insights tonight! By the way, the Bison may even be smirking (Note to self: Research this topic— Do bisons smirk? If not, use Photoshop to insert smirk) This means that he doesn’t care a damn, his followers will swallow ‘anything’, as he does himself so selflessly (I love that, Our Beloved Teacher leading by example—sigh, it’s just amazing how hard C-Influence works to humiliate him! Couldn’t they take a day off sometimes, give him a rest? I mean, I’d gladly take the burden of the Russian boys off his shoulders for a night or two.
Maybe we could print T-shirts with the slogan, “The more the Teacher swallows, the more Students can swallow”, something like that, in gold letters, sort of Egyptian style, but in English, not hieroglyphs, or maybe hieroglyphs on the front, with a message saying “see back” in small, elegant type and then the English on the back——oh no, in imagination again!).
Glad I caught that. So, what else is there to key? Ah yes: Note the young man vainly screaming in protest—who cares? Certainly not the Bison, nor the cute Russian boy’s so–called friends; they are heroically resisting being identified with his plight! His broken spirit (represented by the shattered spear) is perfectly symbolized by the artist. (By the way, did you know, each hair on the bison’s coat represents one more law he’s not under, isn’t that wonderful, and so convenient, I’m a little bit envious, but I know it’s good for me to develop patience, maybe next lifetime, why did I have to be born a mere woman, it’s unfair! But I can see I’m rambling a teeny bit, tee-hee, better get back to keying…)
Moving right along—
The twelve stools issuing from the bird (essence) represent the loss of innocence and sense of self–worth at the completion of the young man’s violation. Splat! The artist really caught the inner significance of the motion in that consciously inspired brush stroke! Splat! (I love that sound, splat! Splat— splat—splat!!. Note to self: Can one ever have too many exclamation marks? No way !!!!)
So anyway, onto the big finale. Today’s lesson is: The mighty god–like Bison lets nothing stand in his way, nothing. (Talk about consistent aim, he’s been like that for as long as I’ve known him. He glories in his lack of conscience, that’s just for sissies, he’s so far beyond that. Sigh, I wish I could be so objective about things!) The Bison seems to be saying, “It is better to seek fantasies rather than the truth—join me in mine. And mine is that I am a goddess in a bison’s body, and zowie, do I love to shop! C–Influence likes to humiliate me by making me spend all the money I can get.” All that from a simple cave drawing, I’d have never guessed, but I can see it as soon as the Teacher points it out, so I try hard, and now he trusts me to help him, that proves I’m On The Way. And I can save him from wasting his energy thinking about this kind of stuff, so he have more time thinking about what is best for us. Win–win! I mean, at least a hundred decisions a week for thirty-eight years, that’s why he’s a 7.999; I didn’t understand why that was important until he told me I didn’t have to understand, just accept it, “Acceptance is the sly man’s pill”, Gurdjieff said. Oh, he’s so helpful that way, clears up all the little difficulties my lower centers raise with a choice quote, and then I’m fine again.
Wow, I can see (with my third eye, I guess!) that, hey, that cave artist knew a thing or two about objective art…(my lower parts—see, they’re doing it again— find it hard to believe he knew how to consciously send on hidden messages 150 centuries, but I know I can separate from the temptation to doubt if I really, deeply try to stop thinking for myself, and just trust the Teacher.) ( Note to self: Disbelief feeds the devil, just have more faith!)
Now we’re smokin’!
The rhinoceros, which is defecating, represents the instinctive center, which says, “There’s nothing like a good shit when you really have to go”. (Note to self: Didn’t Gurdjieff say something along these lines too? Research fully, adds credence and mystique if he did. And if he didn’t, be intentionally insincere, the audience will never know, it makes them feel special, no, not special, that’s vanity just really, really fortunate that they’re the only ones who are saved. The Teacher taught me that, the goal is the state (and l’etat c’est moi), do whatever it takes to get there. So you see, we can go on learning from Teacher forever. Oh glory, forever is hardly long enough, it makes me weak at the knees to think about it!
I’m so glad when the Teacher uses my research to make some point, it makes me feel all goosebumpy and humble and lucky all over! (Memo to self: bring an extra pair of panties to work each day, it’s too exciting for just one pair—or at least, no more skimpy thongs!).
Enough of that, on, on, on.
So the Big Daddy Bison says, “Disregard such messages (that bit about enjoying a good shit), it is better to die of constipation than to give in to the low demands of the King of Clubs.” (Note to self: not quite right, something about the cadence, ask an older student for advice on this one, they always know what is right, ‘cos they’re close to Beloved Teacher, such a relief to be guided by them!).
In the groove, passing straight through the ‘si-do’ interval!
A cave painting in Lascaux, dating to 15,000-13,000 BP, depicts a rhinoceros defecating.
Hmm, if I close my eyes tight, like this, and hit my head with the lamp, like this, sometimes some new insights come to me. Lets see… o.k., here it comes: If the rhino carries on like this, it will be up to its knees in shit, which means the FoF, 15,000 years later, will be in big doo-doo. And if disregards the warnings and it still continues to shit “in its own nest” it will be drowned in its own doo-doo (o.k., o.k., even I know that rhinos never shit in their own nests, but it’s late at night, can’t think of anything better, who’ll notice anyway, and I’m all alone, except for the sound of rapidly approaching footsteps). Unfortunately, the artist had to run to escape the tidal wave of excrement, which is why there is no record of it from all those years ago. Still, the warning is there for anyone to see with their third eye. (Memo to self: Better send an e-mail to everyone on ProperLiar warning about that in the morning! Also: bring more headache pills!)
Phew! The — end. —Finally!!!!
I’m done, I’m so glad, outta here——— WTF?
Linda, why are you tapping me on the shoulder like that? Linda, why are you cramming a valium into my mouth with one hand, and trying to strangle me with the other? Linda, why are you screaming at me, and revoking my license to key things? What do you mean, a medical leave of absence? Don’t what—heck, Linda, that’s not the “Delete” key, that’s the “Send” bu
119 KA
I agree with what you say up to a point.
The 4th way system was never designed as a social blueprint. It’s focus is on the individual and only the spiritual evolution of an individual. The means is self remembering. My point is that because Robert Burton and his inner circle have corrupted the system to fit their agenda does not negate the value of the system for an individual. My relationship to the system is from a personal level. I came back to these ideas not through the Fellowship but through my own experiences after leaving the Fellowship and the system behind for 15 years. I was involved with Alcoholics Anonymous. This involved undergoing some serious inner changes. Only after I had given up all my ideas about what I knew did I come back to the system and find that it served to explain my own spiritual experiences.This was over a period of years. It was not a map of what I was looking for but of where I’ve been. So arguing about it on a theoretical level, to me, is shallow because most of what it contains are facts not just in my past experience but in my present moment to moment experience. In each moment such ideas as the 4 functions, self remembering, identification, center of gravity, features, imagination, 2nd state and 3rd state exist in my consciousness. My own sleep is my #1 reality. I also do not argue because I am invested in it. I get no royalties from it and offer no seminars for those buying enlightement. I do not use it in my day to dayinteractions with others. It is only on this blog because this is the right place. It is important to distinguish between the distortions of the Fellowship of Friends methods and the reality that the system itself is a seperate thing.
The are a spectrum of positions in relation to the Fellowship and different ideas. I try to be clearl about my position not because it is right or a great revealed truth but because it is my own hard won experience and that is what the 4th way is really about. Developing individuality, consciousness, conscience and will.
122 Simple truth
Cutting and pasting from The Fellowship Journal does not count for much.
How much more if you had written-today as I again began my efforts to self remember I…..
122, 125 and 127 are newly moderated, they all come from different people. Those comedians…
Bruce, Why are you insulting, if I only Wrote Thoughts of Counscious Men.
you can not see? that all that i wrote is more valuable than the stuff and insults that live in you.
to isult is mechanical, have you verify this? or you not are interested on work over yourself?
I think you have nothing important to do with your life and you feel very important when some body else tellyou “very well Bruce” and you belive those words making grow your own vanity.
you spend a lot of time insulting and writing stuff.
Calm Down.
Work over yourself, observe your mechanical reaction to this thought.
131 Simple Truth
I thought very long and carefully about your artfully articulated thoughts. My true inner self directs me to tell you to get bent.
Also, I don’t recall asking for your advice.
Question:
http://fofgraduates.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/graduates-of-the-fellowship-of-friends/
Bottom of the page.
Simple Truth
You seemed to intentionally skip over my statement about you defeating poor Robert’s will by going against his suggestion to not communicate with ex-members, and “keep the space clean”. Is this something you prefer to not address in your all encompassing hypocrisy? Did the gods speak to you and suggest you rescue all the unbelievers? I think perhaps you have your head up your ass.
127-Deep throat
Hi Ames, your web link was of course a dead give away. I guess it could be Nancy, but no, it’s got to be Ames. I laughed so hard I had to go change my panties–just a little pee. Wit can be a very healing thing. In qigong they sometimes just laugh for a few minutes because it massages all the internal organs.
Christina
Hello,
I wanted to use this forum to say my story as I can’t find anywhere else to tell it. No-one but an ex-member could know why I joined the FoF and left my family.Why I stood up in a courtroom defending the FoF as I was losing access to my only child.Years later ( I left 10 years ago after 8 yrs in the fellowship) trust is hard to come by. And to top it all I live in Europe! I lived in Renaissance as it was then for about 12 months.
I did enjoy meeting people there and sometimes wonder how they are. I won’t mention names. I shook your hand Joel F in New York once. I found the New York centre very hospitable. We had pizza.
Ah well you can’t escape the pain of ordinary living.If you escape the pain you live in the superficial hollow world of the intellect.And it’s joyless. Just listen to the tone of voice.There I’ve said all I need to say about the FoF ,thanks for the space.
P
Xena, nice try, but don’t blame me!
Blame Bruce!
Scott (I had rather call you Scott than the undeserved insult you wear proudly),
You wrote (to KA):
“The 4th way system was never designed as a social blueprint.”
The question I have for you is, why are you so sure of this?
Scott, you wrote,
Not anything I say, from your post’s it seems less and less likely you were ever a member of the Fellowship. Perhaps this is my limitation. I cannot imagine why anyone would be a member of The Fellowship of Friends if they did not experience and value self remembering.
I keep asking you about what you refer to as “self remembering” and my perception is that you keep avoiding the specifics of the subject, and instead simply refer to it in shorthand as though we all know what you’re talking about.
Consider, perhaps, that some small minority of us have completely abandoned as useless the attentional practice we so relentlessly pursued within the Fellowship. I realize this may be hard to conceive, given the constant hammering there, and in the ideology generally, as to how important the practice of “self remembering” was.
Perhaps we found that this divided attention practice did not promote our ability to be whole and to experience our own wholeness, and decided it led mostly to dissociation and was drastically oversold. (Paradoxical, isn’t it, that something “divided” is sold as a ticket to “unity”?)
Or perhaps we discovered something entirely new, having nothing to do with “divided attention” but which we felt properly deserved the label “self remembering.”
I am not a big fan of the royal we so let me say “I” hereafter. For myself, in my own inner vocabulary, I have completely hollowed out the term “self remembering” which I encountered before the Fellowship and followed so diligently in the Fellowship. Into that empty hull of phonemes I have put something entirely new which has nothing to do with either “divided attention” or the so-called “fourth way.” And that entirely private thing I find valuable. But I doubt I could really explain it to anyone.
“The 4th way system was never designed as a social blueprint.”
Even IF this was true it doesn’t matter. It was designed for human beings. Human beings function social units. Even if you have a complete hermit living way out somewhere no phone, no computer, no blog they are still a social unit – they had to get born at some point.
A system does not need to be a “blueprint” to have a social effect. Studying that effect is a valid way to evaluate the system.
I can’t figure out why you seem rather angry at VP. It seems obvious that we receive the system because of a string of value judgments – a string of different people had to publish the books, distribute, to put it on the bookstore shelf. This was done in the social soup of western Judeo/Christian culture. There must be something I’m missing about what you are saying.
I have to say for me, personally, when I throw away a system – even if it is just temporary – there is a void created. And into that void something arises that is sacred.
OK This is for all those Fof members still “in”. Most of you know me. Would you please spread this message through the grapevine.
DO NOT PARK IN MY DRIVEWAY WITHOUT PERMISSION.
I cannot understand why folks assume they can park their cars where they wish because an area is surrounded by students houses.
There was a concept called ‘external consideration’ which meant among other things to consider other peoples needs above one’s own. If for no other reason than that – don’t park there we use it all the time and so do our friends.
I hope this gets through and spreads like wild fire through the Fof members. I have spoken to Eliza T as she often has events at her place and still folks don’t get the message.
It’s TRAMP don’t park there!!!! Get it!!!
If you read this and think I’m negative – very well observed, full marks.
If you wish to park in those spaces, knock on the door and ASK
Thank you
Stephen
139 Veronicapoe
Scott (I had rather call you Scott than the undeserved insult you wear proudly),
You wrote (to KA):
“The 4th way system was never designed as a social blueprint.”
The question I have for you is, why are you so sure of this?
I write a more complete repsonse but the part of the system that the Fellowship bases it existance on as a true “school of the 4th way” is mostly in Chapter 11 of the 4th way. It is theory. Neither Ouspensky nor Gurdjieff was successful in developing their idea of a “school”. Yet they both produced conscious students. This leaves the theories open to question. But even in terms of the theories the Fellowship has distorted ideas to justify Robert’s own vision of himself as a divine Goddess. The Fellowship fails in its number 1 job to put someone in your place. Whether this is Robert or any older student for the school to be real its product must be real.
Take the time to read chapter 11 of The 4th way. Most of what the Fellowship has used to justify itself is there. I would definitly agree that to take these ideas out of context to justify a heirarchy would make them an ideology. At least in terms of function. That does not negate that that is not the purpose of the system as a whole.
142
Remember when some recently departed posters said that not many FOF members read the blog, because they have more important things, and are completely devoted to the school (paraphrase).
Well, I guess when members post parking warnings on the blog to make sure everyone who’s “in” reads it, there’s members reading it, maybe pervasively.
I’m not really surprised. I’d be surprised if it was the other way around.
142: Good God! A message board for angry, pissed off neighbors?? This has been a heck of a month on the blog!
I’m going to jump into this.
#124 retarded fool, you quote Ouspensky, The Fourth Way:
“There is art number one, that is the art of man number one, imitative, copying art, or crudely primitive and sensuous art such as the dances and music of savage peoples. There is art number two, sentimental art; art number three, intellectual, invented art; and there must be art number four, number five, and so on…”
You assert that this is not judgmental or hierarchical, merely a statement of “facts.” Please explain how words like “imitative,” “crudely primitive,” “savage” and “sentimental” are not judgmental?
Please explain how a statement like “the lower cannot see the higher” is not hierarchical? There is a clearly implied hierarchy: one is HIGHER THAN the other.
In your post #128 you state:
“In each moment such ideas as the 4 functions, self remembering, identification, center of gravity, features, imagination, 2nd state and 3rd state exist in my consciousness. My own sleep is my #1 reality. ”
COULD IT BE that the REASON your own sleep is your #1 reality is that in each moment, your consciousness is filled with IDEAS such as the 4 functions, self-remembering, identification….etc.
COULD IT BE
COULD IT BE that to awaken, your mind needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP for a few minutes and just be????
Look how energizing a dash of righteous anger is. You go girl! LOL
Cathie 148
COULD IT BE that to awaken, your mind needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP for a few minutes and just be????
*******************
You really are a fucking genius, I’m not kidding.
137
Hi Ames, So Bruce is the master of wit and you are just the poop artist?
Hello ~ (107) a former student ~
Personally ‘a former student’, I simply cannot bring myself to use your ‘tongue in cheek’ new blog-name; please consider changing back or bringing about a ‘title’ closer to the silent one within you…
resentment has written billions of books and said nothing for the soul.
I found my blog-name by turning to a page in a Latin dictionary and just choosing whatever was on the page that Chance told me was most applicable to the blog; you might give it a try.
You wrote ~
“Here is a central issue. You challenge my right to have an opinion, my way of presenting my opinion, and now the validity of my own spiritual understanding. In general this is a topic in which a certain respect for others helps as we all try or best what is your view? You make this because the unspoken assumption is that you know the truth? Well that’s false or you would model a different affect than that of arrogant one who knows.”
_________
It seems to me that the “challenge my right to have an opinion” is working both ways between yourself and V.
There’s something very fundamental missing from both of your posts (well, your whole ‘correspondence’), which ‘could’ be a “holy reconciling factor”; I’ll get to it soon…
_________
You wrote ~
“For those in the back rows the question is Self remembering, is it real, The system is it objective knowledge.”
_________
For me, there are no “rows”… this is the first false key that we unknowingly try and find a ‘door’ for…
Truly, no one is in the front, back, or middle rows… unless of course you’re in Robert Burton’s School of Polluted Relative Awakening, where the elites grab the seats up front and the serfs default-body-heat keeps the room warm on cool winter days…
A former student ~ See, you’re setting yourself up for the triad of a feature-discussion about something much broader than the mind’s wiseacring about something it cannot be applied towards, in so far as experiencing what it is that’s YOU, beyond discussion, beyond questions, beyond needing affirmations and ‘connections’ with people who are ‘just as hungry’…
It’s alright to be hungry, just try not to eat your left hand while your scanning the menu with the right.
To me, the desperateness shared between the two of you would be a far greater first force to go for a nice lunch and some serious shopping or to spend a half day at a putt-putt golf course…Have some fun, that is…
________________
Quoting Veronique Poe ~
VP wrote “The fourth way ideology is a blueprint for hierarchical social organization. There are “men number 4 and then there are those above them who have authority. Don’t kid yourself that this point is peripheral. It’s central.”
______________________
It’s interesting, to say the least, that what’s actually “central” Veronique is YOU, not the Fourth Way system;
I truly see no reason to try and ‘philosophically’ separate the two: your organs are not much good if YOU do not wish to live. The same goes for the Fourth Way.
The only “authority” that a being “above” another being has is it’s ability to have none; save the imaginary “above” that the painbody applies to others who ’seem’ to be more of what it wishes or wiseacres to want to become other than cleaning it’s own bathroom firstly;
and as everyone knows, you can aspire towards another’s supposed ‘level of being’, yet, in the end, you are right back where you left off, prior to the ‘inspiration’…
Inspiration does nothing for the man or woman who first gets the spark from someone who in their own essence is finished with that particular ‘chapter in their life’; it’s like painting a fossil green so to call it ‘living’…
I would say that 96% of all inspirations which automatically exude from others ’seem to be’ impression, is something that they themselves pay no attention towards; at least not as much attention as their ‘fans’, their ‘followers’…
the fingerprint is not the hand; an on Valentine’s Day, waz up with that? A heart filled with sweet aphrodisiacs? I’m not even going there… What holiday is not filled with affirmations and aphrodisiacs? (Not to forget, not all affirmations are positive, there are negative one’s too; albeit at some point all affirmations could be considered ’subtractive’.)
To me, Veronique, the only ‘askew’ that I have ‘felt’ from reading your above quote concerning the fourth way system is your over indulgence in “system”; what if it was called ‘The Fourth Door’ or ‘The Fourth You’ or ‘The Fourth Heart’?
This intellectual indulgence has (for you) placed the Fourth Way outside of its intended context,
i.e., the inner-societies of You; remember what Gurdjieff said ~ “Man’s name is Legion.”(?) (possibly he was quoting a similar line of the bible script)…
Nonetheless, the only applicable place for the Fourth Way’s “blueprint for hierarchical social organization” is within You; not the external world…
Is there not this ‘hierarchical’ within You?
It’s Robert Burton’s bastardizations that have put ‘The Way’ (like a needle) into ‘The Hay’… Marking himself as the only one who can find it or has found it, throwing it back in there for posterity (or next lifetime) sake.
The Fourth Way was never meant (like the essential nature of other Three Ways) to be relative to such documents as Plato’s Republic or The Declaration of Independence (are) to society who, they themselves are not asking for it (albeit no one’s really asking for the Plato R or Declaration I, either);
to write an Esoteric Declaration of Independence would be the most difficult document in human history to be scripted, not that it could not be done, yet, this world is far from ready to consider it as such and it seems that students of the fourth way have some inner-un-wiseacring to do as well concerning the initial ‘being’ of the actual body belonging to the Fourth Way, not the thousands of suits that have been tailored to fit its teachers (and students)…
____________
108 ~ ‘a former student’ wrote ~
“This is an if question “if the system is objective knowledge” what then? Is there any test? Only self remembering. But here is the Key , again an if question “if self remembering is possible” then can you explain it to someone who cannot experience it? The answer is no. This is all that separates man #4 from man #1,#2 and #3.”
_____________________
Try this ~ “If I am objective knowing, what then?”
Self remembering is not a test, it’s passing and moving on, out of the classroom; getting off your test-taking-butt and living more than ‘just a little’.
Ouspensky said that everyday is a test; I have yet to disprove this extraordinary ‘theory’…
So, for me, the actual passing of the test is not another test as to whether you passed it with the kind of ‘A+’ I would wiseacre you have;
this ‘grade’ comes from your conscience, your gut, your conscious bravery to really see where you have been, opposed (so to speak) to where you ‘thought’ you’d like to go, etc.
The Fellowship of Friends has taught you how to respond to your own successes, i.e., that they are just not enough, unless Robert Burton notices them…
Luckily, for you, its stuck in your head, not your heart and you’ll get over it (or through it), for sure…
You write ~
“if self remembering is possible” then can you explain it to someone who cannot experience it? The answer is no. This is all that separates man #4 from man #1,#2 and #3.”
_______________
A former student, where do you get this stuff?
The answer is never ‘no’… I myself have proven this, albeit to myself, yet, I cannot believe we are different species from other planets (yet);
while traveling in the East, I, during a brief meeting with a certain ‘camel driver’ introduced him to self remembering; I have no idea what he ever did with ‘the spark’, yet, I am certain that ‘he got it’ and burned with it in my presence;
now whether his ‘forest fire’ has a billion year old coal deposit available for kindling is up to him and the mysterious passage of this time on this planet of no name.
To me, the word “if” is an alarm, particularly when used to begin a question, while whose questioner has no real ascending answer for, other than another ‘if” as one.
Have you ever met a Man #1, #2 or #3? How is it that you became a Man #4 without having been 1,2, and 3?
Try this; go to a monastic order of brothers or a nunnery and explain the ‘theory’ of Self Remembering to them; let me know your results.
Of course, being present during such an introduction to Self Remembering is barely 1/100 of a percent of the story that may or may not unfold afterwards; many simply put it aside as an idea, interesting, odd… To truly do something with it can never be predicted or regulated.
Get thee to Tibet and meet some Tibetan Monks or to Berkeley (there’s probably more there than in Tibet) and prove your “no” full-proof (or fool-proof);
one ‘yes’ out of a billion would prove the ‘no’ a ‘yes’ BTW.
__________________
114 Veronicapoe wrote ~
Veronicapoe responds: “Surely the “work books” are permeated with ideas that imply, or even state baldly, a social power dynamic, to the following effect: “In schools, Men #4 have less power, ‘higher’ men, who run the schools, have more.” Do you dispute this?
In my view that it is an ideology is a pretty elementary proposition.”
____________
Elementary indeed Veronique; and BTW, what “proposition” is ever anything but “elementary”?
The word “surely” is not too far from “if”…
“Imply” is on your side of the ‘point’; it’s not necessarily what ‘it is’.
In a real Fourth Way school the students run the school, not the teacher; so, that pretty much flushes that dead gold-plated fish cleanly down the toilet.
Osho tried it… though, the throne thing has to go eventually.
Burton is still trying it… though it all has to go; his whole school is about trying and not ‘doing’; it is a school of his love of being loved, not loving the lovers for themselves, only loving them for a more powerful reminder that ‘he’ is it;
the students blind satiating of his features and mechanics have become affirmative ‘proofs’ that the school works; yes, it works for Robert Burton the ‘role’, though, where’s the soul? (maybe next lifetime?)
We’re all evolving; I do not doubt a bit that Osho is still growing, prying himself away from those Rolls Royce affirmations; finished by now I hope (so to speak).
Anything that is “disputable” in a Fourth Way School is not the subject of the Fourth Way,
it’s sheer nature of being something than can imbue an argument between two people (or more) with opposite thinking and (I’s), does not belong to objective knowledge or its implied handling of it, i.e.,
being objective and having certain depths of external consideration and objective love, to not just understand that another is not where you are on a particular subject, but to value what it ‘feels like’ to experience both,
one’s extreme vanity elation of knowing too much of one’s own scripted opinion and having it’s corresponding button pushed by one’s quick judgments or superstitions of the ability of ignorance to redeem itself and another’s actual real-time-ignorance and shy innocence within your personal realm of being.
There is a great and holy ‘thing’ between two people that is seldom paid any ‘money’ towards: it’s called SPACE.
It’s in that space that real love can be performed, not had, simply danced, then you move on with your lot, your life as it is in the one and only now.
_______________________
Veronique ~
You wrote to ‘a former student’ ~
“You say, “self-remembering” makes it different and takes it out of the realm of an ideology. I respect that this is your opinion, but it is not a position that has any logical force. It is essentially a mystical argument, an announcement that this is incontrovertible and is not open to examination or debate. So, as I say, if you don’t want to have it examined, that’s fine. Maybe someone else wants to take up the banner.
_________________
When does the blank phenomenon “force” become “logical”?
When it has entered your head before your heart.
Actually, Veronique, saying “I respect…” and on the same line stating “it is not”… This is absolutely impossible to hold steady in one test tube… it’s a roller coaster ride whose passengers are inflatable dummies filled with nitroglycerin.
There is no such a thing as a “mystical argument”…
Can someone tell me if Grant R. is still growing weed? It seems that some of you may have current, personal verifications of its existence in the actual now…
What “banner” Veronique? I thought we were finished flying banners of others narcissistic reflections in the pool.
You write ~
“an announcement that this is incontrovertible and is not open to examination or debate.”
Wow, try telling that to the story of Rumi and Shams or any beings relationship to ‘outside forces’.
Cannot ‘outside forces’ come in disguise as a friend’s introduction of denying force? In the possibility of an argument or a damning expression of the negative and static?
I do not sense there is an “announcement” that is ever ‘not’ or ‘moot’ (objectively speaking)
although there is a thing called narcissistic laziness, which is a strange superstition from the ancient land of narcissistic-ism that
one cannot see the same image of oneself in another’s pond while they are simultaneously seeing theirs in yours…
It’s the being of the listener which prescribes such limiting profundities to love’s possibilities and the stretching of one’s being to go a bit beyond the cliff’s edge, like Roadrunner.
The only ‘thing’ that prescribes such limitations is ‘Fear’ and ‘willful vanity’. Get rid of those and you’ll be surprised at what others can show you concerning your ever growing being’s direction, that you yourself could never navigate alone (unbeknown the most psyches possessed by their automatic body types and features, who determine the ‘first impressions’ of others and pigeon hole the ‘vision’ as finished, confusing, indisputably personal and sacredly me, me, me.
___________________
‘A former student’ wrote ~
“The single most important aspect is conscience and individual consciousness and will. There is no place in the Fellowship for these aspects of individuality to develop.”
______________
Ah, that’s ‘three’ aspects BTW…
Actually there is a place in The Fellowship of Friends for these to grow, it’s just a Catch 22 thingy, that is, that once it does begin to grow in ‘there’ it leaves the school,
it’s ’sprout’ is what takes people out of Robert Burton’s window-seal-dope-pot and allows the ‘flood’ to plants itself deep within some incredible meadow, where there is plenty of depth and midnight breezes.
It’s ironic I must admit; though, ‘the jewels’ of The Fellowship of Friends are those who have taken a hammer to the 44 carat diamond and stopped scribbling their initials on movie house mirrors, just to remind themselves that ‘real diamonds cut glass’.
Yes, and ‘real diamonds’ also make good ‘diamond dust’ which, once embedded in a circular steel blade, cuts ‘not so pretty geodes’ in half, revealing thousands of sparkling crystals and colors.
To me, (if) one wants to make it a habit to single out an aspect of the fourth way system, I find it helpful to find one that embraces the whole system, not just another aspect;
I like this one ~ “Can I do” ~ anything with all this stuff?”
Remember, Ouspensky said that “Self Remembering is not enough; you have to do something with it.”
Also, O. reminded his students, that, without a certain kind of emotional intensity, super efforts cannot be achieved, cannot go beyond the automatic shut-down of the four lower centers…
where G., added that the system cannot ‘create’ without efforts or intentional suffering (see “Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson.”)
There is so much book-dope for the sake of being a dope-book, oozing from the Galleria that the emotional premise of all 4 ways has been absolutely buffered by Robert Burton;
the only emotional intensity he creates is by default, movie-star wiseacre-triggering of his ‘fans’…
and of course ‘the scandals’ and ‘contradictions’ that actually don’t keep his students ‘transforming’, rather,
it keeps them drinking, gossiping, self doubting or military cold-hearted self assured, so to walk away from their own inner-robert-burton;
worshiping the coming of the new age rather than householdering this one.
_______________________
140 Veronicapoe
You wrote ~
“And that entirely private thing I find valuable. But I doubt I could really explain it to anyone.”
________________________
Actually (for me, my sense), it’s this “doubt” that fuels your vivacious mind activity to cover up your heart aches…
This last line written by you is an incredible ‘key’ (do you sense that?)…
it is this ‘private thing’ that is actually inside ‘a former student’ as well; you guys just haven’t putt putted enough…
If we cannot express in some form (not necessarily written) what is essentially “valuable” at the get go of any interaction, even if its with a rock;
then that SPACE (between seer and seen) cannot breath;
then there is no real emotional valuation for the conversation, thus, our sub-conscious regret or fear titles it ‘my point’, ‘my way of seeing’, ‘my thing I can’t explain…’
Sure, you can’t explain it; although you can possibly express it from the point of view of allowing it’s loving force to be your nucleus, your omnipresent reconciler, for being very sure of not being sure:
why argue with the quicksand’s depth when you’re already completely submerged?
That ‘very fundamental missing’ element I said I’d get around to (soon) mentioning is LOVE;
If we cannot hold love as the first and foremost priority, before all mind activity, thirst for comparisons, competition and drama, then we are not students of anything, let alone the 4 ways;
it is love, the tolerance of indecision, of ignorance, of inconsistency, of differences, that use that SPACE as spaciousness between our convictions, where we can exist before any ‘point’, before any ‘I’, before any ‘question’ or ‘answer’, before the Devil itself and smile (without tongue in cheek or hands in pockets), this is our spiritual territory, this is where we all truly live and move (or not) about.
_______________________
Love to you all.
Does anyone have any information about the recent INS interviews with FOF followers here on visas from other countries?
147, 148, & 149
Any chance that you girls would be game for some early summer mud wrestling in Rebbecca M’s goat pen? Let me know, I’ll bring the beer and rap music.
:)
Stephen ~
LOL… you European Bard you; yes, you’re invited to the mud wrestling also, so long as we can park in your driveway.
:0
Unoanimo – finally someone who had the decency to ask first!
I don’t mind a bit of a wrestle, as long as I can shower afterwards!
By the way – within an hour or so of my posting, someone in Salim’s Restaurant told me they heard something about not parking in my driveway – It worked, and I could give a threepenny toss about using the blog for this purpose. If anyone has a problem – stew in it, it’s your problem, enjoy!
Stephen
on 16 Jul 2007 at 2:32 am
in post #151 unoanimo
God, unoanimo you are the chinese food of the blog. I don’t know what a lot of what you say means. I often doubt whether it means anything to you. While reading it seems like there is a large selection of ideas and insights but When I’m done I get the equivalent of mental gas and then I feel hungry again as If I hadn’t eaten anything.
The least valueble part of your post in when you question the value of the interchamge. from my perspective its not about being right it just caring enough to write about something. With all its inherent limitations confronataion either or situation seems to work in this format. It is the process that is important both in my questioning someone else’s assumptions and having mine mirrored back.
The part that is so contradictory is that you are doing what you question. You are reacting to a stimulous. Logically the correct response to an unneeded interchange is quite. Don’t feed it. You seem to like to jump in with a big stik stir it up then stand back and exclaim with surprise “why would you look at that shit!!!!”
Stephen ~
For those about to rock I salute you.
I dedicate this song to you know who ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srvEvJiBpBE
Yes, Steven, there’s a big pond just across the street you can jump into or Rebecca’s water hose, which ever suits your essential essence the most.
Long live Salim’s…
Word!
A former student ~
After reading your post I now understand that I should have invited the whole blog to the mud wrestling fest at Rebecca’s goat pen; sorry for not initially including you, your post reflects a definite aura of wanting to join us, so, yes, you can wrestle too and as far as I understand Steven, you can also park in his driveway; just be sure to leave an enneagram painted in mud on you car hood so to identify your car as belonging to one of us.
:)
Dear Former student and all others.
I am so glad you, do not show anything in your writings of a stimulus response reaction. A true example of being above the stimulus response.
Thanks and enjoy your day fully.
Sit still for a moment and enjoy your own compagny.
What you see in others is also in your selfs brothers…
121 David
Thank you so much for your careful explanation of what got many of you interested in the Fellowship, what kept you there for so long, and, now, how it has all transformed into something that most rational people would find distasteful. Your explanation helped make it much more understandable to me, as to how so many bright, sane, seekers got immersed in what seems like a bizarre lifestyle. And yet, as a teacher, I totally understand the lure of a school of like-minded individuals. It was a noble experiment, and I hope that those of you who leave–band your energy together with old friends and new to still follow that youthful idealism and create a wiser manifestation of “awakening within the real world”. Perhaps, the greatest mistake any of you made was to forget that each of us is a teacher, each of us is a student, each of us is forever learning and awakening and leading and following. . . .
Thank you for taking the time to educate an outsider, David. May our paths cross one day.
#160 Observer:
Your students are fortunate. Thanks for YOUR insights.
Fellowship of Friends and
Robert Earl Burton
are on this ladder:
LA Cardinal Apologizes to Plaintiffs
Jul 15, 6:27 PM (ET)
By GILLIAN FLACCUS
LOS ANGELES (AP) – Cardinal Roger Mahony, leader of the nation’s largest Roman Catholic archdiocese, apologized Sunday to the hundreds of people who will get a share of a $660 million settlement over allegations of clergy sex abuse.
“There really is no way to go back and give them that innocence that was taken from them. The one thing I wish I could give the victims … I cannot,” he said.
“Once again, I apologize to anyone who has been offended, who has been abused. It should not have happened, and it will not happen again.”
Mahony said that he has met in the past 14 months with dozens of people alleging clergy abuse and that those meetings helped him understand the importance of a quick resolution to the lawsuits.
The settlement will not affect the archdiocese’s core ministry, Mahony said, but the church will have to sell buildings, use some of its invested funds and borrow money. The archdiocese will not sell any parish property, he said.
The deal between the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles and more than 500 alleged victims of clergy sexual abuse reached late Saturday is by far the largest payout since the nationwide clergy abuse scandal emerged in 2002 in Boston.
The settlement also calls for the release of priests’ confidential personnel files after review by a judge. According to Tod Tamberg, spokesman for the archdiocese, the settlement had not required Mahony to make his public apology.
Earlier Sunday, Mahony presided over Mass at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels in downtown Los Angeles without directly addressing the settlement. The service did include a prayer for victims of clergy abuse.
Mahony and all parties are expected before a Los Angeles Superior Court judge on Monday to enter the settlement into the court record, attorneys said.
(AP) In this file photo, members of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, SNAP, protest…
Full Image
“I think for those of us who have been involved in this for more than five years, it’s a huge relief,” said Michael Hennigan, archdiocese attorney. “But it’s a disappointment too that we didn’t get it done much earlier than this.”
Parishioners reacted with disappointment and relief to the settlement.
Vivian Viscarra, 50, who attends Mass at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels three times a month, said the victims deserve the payout even though it could hurt the church’s ability to deliver important services. The amount would average a little more than $1.3 million per plaintiff, although individual payouts will vary according to the severity and duration of the abuse.
“I am disappointed,” Viscarra said. “And it’s making me re-evaluate my views of whether people in the ministry should be married. People do have needs.”
Chris Parra, who attends Mass every Sunday, said she couldn’t help thinking about the settlement when she shook Mahony’s hand on the way out of the cathedral.
“Even when I was standing there, shaking his hand, I was thinking about how he’s finally going to release the priests’ personnel records and I wondered to myself why didn’t he do that sooner,” she said, holding her baby, Tomas.
Parra said she was upset that her tithing would go toward paying the settlement.
“I still want my children to follow the church’s guidelines and foundation because that’s how I was raised,” she said. “But there’s still a lot of healing to be done.”
The deal settles all 508 cases that remained against the archdiocese, which also paid $60 million in December to settle 45 cases that weren’t covered by sexual abuse insurance.
Under the latest deal, the archdiocese will pay $250 million, insurance carriers will pay a combined $227 million and several religious orders will chip in $60 million. The remaining $123 million will come from litigation with religious orders that chose not to participate in the deal, with the archdiocese guaranteeing resolution of those 80 to 100 cases within five years, Hennigan said.
Standing outside the cathedral, Mary Grant, spokeswoman for Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, said the settlement did not end suffering for the thousands of victims of clergy abuse.
“This is not over,” she said. “Church officials would like to think that this settlement means everything is OK…. But this is not a magic wand.”
The settlements push the total amount paid out by the U.S. church since 1950 to more than $2 billion, with about a quarter of that coming from the Los Angeles archdiocese. A judge must sign off on the agreement.
The Los Angeles archdiocese, its insurers and various Roman Catholic orders have paid more than $114 million to settle 86 claims so far.
Several religious orders in California have also reached multimillion-dollar settlements in recent months, including the Carmelites, the Franciscans and the Jesuits………..
137 and 163 are newly moderated comments.
Vena, why don’t you make a request to the Department of Homeland Security under the Freedom of Information Act for the materials you are asking about?
By the way, unoanimo, I agree with Scott. You seem to presume an absence of friendliness and an absence of enjoyment in our discussion, but you’re wrong. It’s clear, to me at least, that Scott is having a good time in this interchange, as he has written elsewhere, and so am I. He gets a little more heated than I do, but so what?
161 Observer:
Hello:
One final possibly related thought I had was that the internet and this blog seems to me to be very significant. It is helping to shine light on many dark corners, non-members from around Oregon House (actually from anywhere in the world — imagine that!) are able to interact in an anonymous and hopefully mature way (in the way you’ve been able to question and converse with ‘us’).
One of the significant ideas that has been cropping up in many aspects of life over the past decades is the growing realization of the interconnectedness of everything and everyone. At first this was simply an idea to the modern western world — think of how bizarre the ideas of quantum physics seemed way back when. But as the generations have grown up with them, they have gradually become part of all our ‘worldview’. Phenomena like ‘global warming’, or ‘climate change’ (to select a timely topic) if that is a more neutral expression are also driving home in a very visceral way the fact that we are all part of one thing, and what I do to you I do to me.
These ideas were very core christian teachings, buddhist teachings, etc. Mostly they are interpreted in exoteric ways, as in be a good person, but they have a more important esoteric application where they deal with the dissolution of the ‘ego’ and the ultimate union with god/creation/absolute/reality, whatever one feels comfortable calling it. They haven’t been very much part of the fof experience up to now, and I think that paradox is fueling the fires you are witnessing. Many of ‘us’ are seeing the necessity in our own spiritual lives of expanding our concept of ‘I’, to phrase it in one way, and are not finding any of the current fof trends to be supporting that.
Well, just some musings. I am glad you found the earlier posting helpful. It was for me very useful to write it, although very uncomfortable also. Going through all this is often a very very sad experience, I have to say. I and others set sail on this ship of fools (I do not mean this in a mean way) with a lot of hope, and I guess we are finding that it isn’t heading where we want to go. But it was a great ride with great shipmates.
You sound also like an interesting person to get to know, but I have no idea how that might work. Most are very cautious about posting any personal information on this blog, and with good reason. But, one never knows.
In Socrates “school” when they sat around “interchanging” thoughts I would bet there were people like me. One minute wowing and the next howling.
I enjoyed the heck out that.
Regarding Posts 121(David) and 161 (Observer):
I want to thank you both for your very clear and insightful posts. I was left with the strong reminder and the accompanying feelings that we who were/are in the FoF are so ‘Not Special’, but are just ordinary folks who have been cursed or blessed, depending on one’s point of view, by the ‘seeker gene’ (magnetic center). Perhaps most of us who joined the FoF attracted this situation, at least in part, because we very much needed to learn this lesson and it sometimes takes a good, sticky ‘humble pie in the face’ to get the message.
-Nancy G
137
To py
Each of us here are fragments of the same mirror,
reflecting back and forth our hearts and souls to each other
to you py, and to all, more joy, less pain
Cake
“God” (125) wrote: “Do not be Lazy, (sleeper) make efforts, resist to imagination, unnecesary talk, negative emotions, and identification. Do some thing, in relation to your own Counsciousness.”
I recall how Ouspensky made a point of describing the five obstacles to awakening: They are negative emotions, unnecessary talk, imagination, identification, and…
Darn, what was that fifth obstacle? … Does anyone remember?
Oh, that’s right…
Lying
This concept is consisently left out of posts by those who defend Robert Burton. Why? Well, because it’s a key point. What if we suddently began to realize much of this — or that all of this even — is just a lie?
That we joined and stayed in the Fellowship of Friends for many years — because we were lying to ourselves?
Because we pretended to know something we didn’t know.
Not a comfortable topic for Robert Burton.
Dear Martin and others,
Again Martin, try to think of the students and on the fence who are depended on the fellowship of friends. It is not about you or AG. It is about many more people and i agree with Tim C he can use the blog, he can call or write people etc. Thanks Martin for holding your tongue, it is helpful to know all the factors involved in these decisions.
Lov and enjoy the day.
To Observer:
“Okay, I am not sure why so many of you think I am some kind of fictional character, so I’ll give you a little background. I was employed for many years as a teacher in the Yuba-Sutter area. In the late 80’s/early 90’s there used to be a great restaurant in downtown Marysville (can’t remember the name of it), but when I asked one of my fellow teachers the background of the restaurant because the food was so great–I heard for the first time about the Fellowship of Friends.”
I was interested in your little bit of personal history. Too bad you cannot remember the name of the “great restaurant” in downtown Marysville, with great food. We could alluse a good address for food in Marysville… That being said, I am not aware that any restaurant in Marysville was manned by FOF or people related to FOF in the late 80’s early 90’s. What was the connection between asking you colleague about the food and FOF? Thanks for clarifying.
173
Yes there was. Wasn’t it Lydia’s, and then sold to other FOF people.
For those who do not know Greg Goodwin who writes on this list as Graduates has his own on line 4th way school at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the4thwaysystem/l.
His premise is that as a “Graduate” (man#5) his task is to teach the system. To all those who are former students of Robert Burton and dearly miss the presence of a higher man to guide their development Gregory provides such a divinely insprired service. ( I don’t know if this is a “full service” teaching as is Robert Burtons)
Check out his site it is full of such profound wisdom as this quote
“A man can never understand
anything in significant depth without first possessing self-knowledge and self-knowledge comes from self-consciousness. At the same time, the payment
for self-consciousness is the development of the mind’s intelligence, the increased coordination and discernment of the movements, the heightened perceptiveness of the instincts and the enhanced sensitivity and wisdom of
emotional understanding. Neither a raw, unrefined essence nor a superficial self-centered personality is ever permitted the authority of self-consciousness. ”
I’m sure that all those who felt the profound depth of his insights in such well thought out comments as ”
“Pay to have an IQ test conducted on yourself and carefully consider the results in comparison with the average citizen and then shut the fuck up”]
or his latest which is to change his posting name ( perhaps like our other favorite conscious man to express the feminent aspects of higher centers) and post such insightful arguments as
148 Cathie
COULD IT BE that to awaken, your mind needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP for a few minutes and just be????
Of course this does not have to be Gregory Goodwin just because I’ve witnessed him do this over and over on different sites ( ussually he gets booted than comes back, with a new name,The Sheik is more tolorant than most) this blog is probably full of individuals who have nothing better to do than imitate Gregory’s well thought out knive sharp cutting edged intellectual approach to exchanges.
Those who enjoy his cutting edge insights into esoteric thought will appreciate his creative insights in his on line books such as
THE PSYCHOLOGICAL EVOLUTION
OF MAN’S POSSIBILITIES
An original work of Greg W. Goodwin
VIEWS FROM THE NEW WORLD (Book 02-02-07)
An original work of Greg W. Goodwin
BODY TYPES
an original work copyright Greg Goodwin
ONE THOUSAND APHORISMS
Greg W. Goodwin
In Gregory’s school it is not neccessary to read from past beings he has written his own book of Gems.
such wonders of insight as
“Only speak a truth after experiencing it entirely, so that forgetting it or going against it is impossible.”
“They only dismiss words as meaningless abstractions while insisting that real people are too busy experiencing reality to speak because in truth they have nothing to offer anyone else.”
Gregory you are an imitation being, a make believe Robert Burton, regurgitating undigested information. A poor mockery of the worst of the Fellowship from which you were expelled. Your presence on the blog is an insult to anyone who actually left the Fellowship to follow conscience.
You cannot maintain a facade of intelligent communication for long because any question of your higher being threatens your imagination about your level of consciousness. And I my friend have here on the blog and over the last few years every time I have discovered your weasly presence challanged your claim as a man #5. Here is a new aphorism, steal it with my permission. I realize an original thought has never crossed your mind and if it did you would not recognize it. So take this as my gift.
“A true higher being is immune to the slurs of the lower.”
But as I said this is such a poor format why not get together in Berkeley, land of the free. Hey Greg , why are you one of the only people to be on the contact list with no contact information. Why would a man #5 be embarrassed to let people contact him?
Doesn’t matter mine is there give me a call. I can always make room in my scheduale for such a great spiritual being as you, a true , as they say “legend in their own mind”.
Your Friend
“Scott” Duncan Shockley
1926 Alcatraz Ave #4
510-652-2776
I’ll be playing solo at Bachesso’s on San Pablo and Dwight Way every Monday 6-9, on Tuesday I’ll probably go hang out and sit in with the band at the “Mojo Lounge” in Fremont and Wednsday at “Vinnies” ijam session in Concord so unless your scared I’ll take an expensive guitar and lay it upside your head to stimulate “thinking in a new way” or a moment of “metonia” drop by in Berkeley, the foods good and I’m busy playing.
I’m sure that having a conscious man in the room would radiate so much higher energy that it would be sheer bliss to be in your presence and bask in the radience of your divine consciousness, or am I confusing you with Robert Burton, the divine goddess of cock sucking.
Say Greg do you have any insights into the esoteric benifits of drinking large amounts of cum? Have you written a book on it? Tips on technique? Aphorism’s? Is rubbing it on your face good for your complexion? Was this part of how you became man #5?
Was this why you were expelled from the FOF were you poaching on Robert’s private stock? Or was it because he was aghast at the immense size and girth of your manly member and had to remove you to save himself from becoming addicted to it and drowning or choking on it?
Please , please oh, noble enlightened one,
great awakened teacher of the age
bestowe apon us your pearls of wisdom.
Invoke once again the holy power of the rightous concious “fuck You”
an adoring public awaits your darhma
175
You left out the link for those who wish to study Mr. Goodwin’s system:
http://ivanosokin.tripod.com/
174 Bruce
173
Yes there was. Wasn’t it Lydia’s, and then sold to other FOF people.
————————
Yes, it was started by Kenneth and Lynda Wygal and another FoF couple, can’t remember who.
It was named Lydia’s because Lynda changed her name to Lydia during the period when all Linda’s, of any spelling, were asked to go by Belinda.
167 David
173 Opus111
Thanks again to all of you who have tried to explain your strong connection to FoF and make it more explicable and less irrational to an outsider. I have been able to understand that FoF was a Fourth Way school and that Ouspensky and Gurdjieff were the philosphers upon whom much of the initial ideas of the school were based. As I am a constant reader, I wouldn’t mind reading a little bit more about the philosophical underpinnings of the Fourth Way, but I don’t really wish to wade through numerous books. Is there any one (1) book or text that would make the main ideas clearer? I catch threads of the main ideas as you all argue/discuss/debate/theorize various elements of the FoF experience, but before I have gained a substantial enough understanding the blog always returns to discussing the sex, or the lies, or the “still in” vs. “newly out” vs. “out for a long time”, or how to disband the school but keep the people, etc. and I keep feeling frustrated and curious as to what philosophical ideas could have inspired this much human drama! As a teacher who has led many group projects over the years, it is inspiring and fascinating to witness you all “debriefing” each other at such an exponential rate. Most middle-aged adults have long ago given up worrying about philosophy or spirituality in any but the most surface fashion, so it is interesting to ponder what ideas could spawn this much dedication, passion, and gossip. But I don’t want to become a follower; I just wish to follow the train of thought and argument more clearly. I can tell some of you feel very disappointed in yourselves, but I find it hopeful to witness so much passion in your discussion. I pray in the midst of the “revolution”, you are able to hold on to that passion and fervor and find a way to enrich your hearts and souls.
Opus 111, although I taught at a local school, I lived in the Grass Valley area and did not know much about Marysville. The teacher who told me the background of the restaurant based on what he knew as a resident of Yuba City has since passed away. That is all I remember of our conversation. I was in my 20’s, and I remember being struck by the idea of small, rural, ‘dull’ Oregon House being the site of an “international cult” (his words not mine). I remember we had a whole lunchtime conversation about the contrast of the different type of “cults”: the ones where they kill off their own members, or the ones where they kill off their neighbors in the community, or, in your case, the ones where they build a winery. None of us knew the ideas that motivated your “cult”, but we all chuckled and thought if we were ever going to belong to one–we voted to join yours!! (Please forgive me. I am not poking fun at any of you. I am just relating how some of your neighbors in the community have thought about and discussed you. At least most of the teachers I was eating with that day were just frankly curious as to what got you all to give up your old lives and move–sometimes halfway around the world. It sounded very exotic, innocent, and daring to all of us as we prepared for another year of teaching school. That curiousity about your group has stayed with me all of these years. I am not trying to be intrusive with comments, but, sometimes, it is of interest to see how an outsider with fresh eyes and no real preconceptions views your community.)
Thank you, again, for your receptive and open-hearted responses. I appreciate the time it takes to explain to one who knows nothing about the background of the situation and the community.
Thanks Scott, for that effort I certainly owe you a beer.
To Unoanimo, post 101 to My2Bits
“Conscience was developed to ‘holy reconcile’ our inner contradictions, our mysterious womb-condition of being within physical bodies that automatically, without our conscious will, do things, say things, that we ourselves would never permit having had happen had we been present to them prior to their automatically leaving through our ‘actions’, ‘words’, or ‘emotions’.”
Thanks…I needed that reminder today. The entire post to My2Bits hits the bull’s-eye.
-Nancy G
#175 & 176: Thanks Duncan and Bruce.
“A man is destroyed by madness the minute he mistakenly takes his role more seriously than his Self.” – Gregory Goodwin
175
I found the book “One Thousand Aphorisms” by Greg Goodwin to be especially revealing and instructive. Hmmmmmmmmmm.
http://ivanosokin.tripod.com/aphorisms.html
Bruce. Are we lining up for beers AGAIN?
To Observer:
My bad… I forgot about Lydia’s place. I was not around Northern California at the time and never went to that place. I have little doubt that the food might have been excellent.
The book I would recommend is “The Psychology of man’s possible evolution” by Ouspensky. It is short and rather dry. O. tried to convey the essentials (of the Fourth way) in as few words as possible. Since short is one of your requests, that should do it. It is also relevant to FOF as for a long time, this was the reference preferentially given to prospective members (Burton is said to never have read anything by Gurdjieff). That being said, the “Psychology” was rarely the first book, or the only one, members had read when they joined. If you like anecdotes, context and a certain flair about presenting ideas, I would recommend “Meetings with remarkable men” by Gurdjieff.
181 Tim
I find these fairly uh ……something, thank you:
The most beautiful of all promising women is the one that is interested in you, while the others are just fleeting fantasies.
Those blessed with only good fortune are cursed with not realizing how neglected by conscious forces they are.
Desire and affection for another blinds a man with a selfishness disguised as sacrifice.
Life seems to make many remarkable promises, but usually only delivers to those selfish enough to seize them.
There was hardly a woman more easily destroyed by a few words of criticism and yet thought herself the moral judge of creation.
The inevitably self-destructive human experiments first drive themselves mad before retiring to the environs of Hell.
If you don’t like those, well, there are 994 more.
I know their are probably numerous readers who want more of Gregory Goodwin’s teachings. Here are some more aphroism’s from the enlightened one. These are taken from
http://www.geocities.com/higheremotion/aphorisms.html
To stab them with the truth with foreknowledge that it will injure is more deceptive than outright lies.
To ingest a potent dose of truth the recipient should be intelligently immune to criticism but he must also be determinedly committed to facing himself.
Only those wounded with hypocrisy feel such a cruel sensitivity as to complain about the sharpness of truth.
Truth is what is perceived when awake, belief is what motivates men when they sleep.
The solitary truth is that a man needs to transform all of his life and then radiate the resultant fine emotion into the lives of others.
Only the ego is insulted by being told the truth about its falsity.
and as Gregory Goodwin likes to say in relation to any critism to his ability to communicate higher truths the ever popular invocation of the power of truth and the projection of higher matters internalized with the proper sensing of ones various parts in a manner becoming to a three brained being the holy “fuck You”.
Gotta love your thought process Greg reading your material is like watching a drunk pee on his own feet and enjoy the warm comfortable sensation.
This one is the one I choose to ponder on this day:
A dance floor full of drunken singles gyrating to popular music is the most obnoxious mating ceremony ever devised in the annals of tribal barbarity.
namaste
Party on dudes and dudesses.
Dear Observer,
I live in Grass Valley. If you’d like, my wife and I would be glad to meet you one day at the South Pine Street Café for breakfast. You’d have the opportunity to meet two fairly typical ex-members, one of whom ‘traveled half-way round the world’ to come here, the other a ‘sensible Mid-westerner’. We could bring a couple of books for you to choose from, you’d be free to ask any questions you’d like, and we’d have the opportunity to get to know you.
E-mail me at: nancyames (at) accessbee (dot) com if you want to do this.
Regards,
Ames Gilbert
189
Ames….typical ex-member bwaaahhhaaaahhhaaa.
Just kiddin, love you man.
a former student 186
and as Gregory Goodwin likes to say
**********
Please, call me Greg.
Cathie, I still say you’re a genius.
Wait, one more aphorism:
Always appear predictable, even so, make sure your mind does not know what you will do next.
my job is done.
Thank you ‘Living the Questions’… I needed that one; thank you.
Also a thank you to ‘A former student’ and ‘Veronicapoe’…
for reminding me by your lines ~
“You seem to like to jump in with a big stik stir it up then stand back and exclaim with surprise “why would you look at that shit!!!!”
“By the way, unoanimo, I agree with Scott. You seem to presume an absence of friendliness and an absence of enjoyment in our discussion, but you’re wrong.”
__________________________
that many of our steps within this blog ‘form’ … let’s say, is still very insincere concerning our ability to step back and see, without choosing the negative first or title ‘wrong or right’ that which a constructive critique can unlock in us all when seen from the place of neither a presupposed or predisposition to something that’s denying us the freedom to be ourselves;
somehow, so far as I have experienced ‘Friendship’, (under the carpet), particularly when aspects of that friendship begin to grow and make soft, silent calls to be more than the sort of friendship that ‘grows’ by reciprocating one another’s weaknesses contrasted against the automatic strengths that are prerequisite for judging oneself as ‘weak’… that these friendships are based on ‘BELIEF’, not being, belief in the little self, not being free of certain lines in the sand…
It seems that I unknowingly crossed that ‘line in the sand’ with both of you (‘A Former Student and Veronicapoe) and I can assure you both that it will not happen again; unless you call for it: I understand now and will act accordingly…
Thank you both, again, for your very clear messages as to what you need from your friends; complete obedience within the framework of formatory argument; any attempt to reconcile both sides, bringing to light neither a winner or a loser is seen as a threat…
I understand this and wish you both well.
_________________________________
‘Another Name’ (160) ~
I am curious as to the sincerity of your post…Did you have ‘tongue in cheek’ while writing it… certainly the above quotes would reveal otherwise.
_________________________________
Love thrives on its opponents; particularly when they serve as mirrors of what one’s love needs to ‘do’ in order to be either more patient or more nothing; silent love can move mountains as well as earthquakes.
Love to you all.
Observer
“I just wish to follow the train of thought and argument more clearly. “
———————————————————————–
chopsticks
Observer, I am still not convinced that you are real. Anyone can pass the information you gave.
Let assume that you are a real outside person.
As a teacher you know that if a pupil from first grade will go to a class in college he will not understand what is going on.
It is impossible to make you understand things that take years to understand.
I suggest you read the booklet “the Psychology of man Possible evolution” that has some fundamental ideas, then think about the ideas for awhile and then contact the blog if you have questions..
Also as a beginner ask more talk less listen more.
Thanks
cs
I swear to G-d, unoanimo, you are such a martyr.
158
That’s what I’m talkin about!
I’ve kinda lost track of my discussion with VP on the system.
My position is that if as it is presented to be “a system of objective knowledge” it is not an ideology.
If it is used to justify criminal activities ( both in the objective and subjective, legal sense) then it is an ideology.
But this is one way to discuss triads, right action. The use of a thing is part of a triad. A thing in and of itself has no value, its use, they force it conducts does.
Take a simple object, a wooden chair. To the senses it is one thing. Objectively it is a conductor of force. It can conduct one of three forces in six possible processes.
On page 75 chapter 4 of “The Theory of Celestial Influence” Rodney Collin wrote…..
We may summarize the processes thus:
(a) Sun: Earth: Planets: or Life: Matter: Form:
Incarnation, Growth, Multiplication, Elaboration.
(b) Sun: Planets: Earth: or Life: Form: Matter:
Decay, Disintegration, Destruction, Elimination.
(c) Earth: Sun: Planets: or Matter: Life: Form:
Transformation, Refinement, Purification, Digestion.
(d) Planets: Sun: Earth: or Form: Life: Matter:
Disease, Rebellion, Corruption, Crime.
(e) Earth: Planets: Sun: or Matter: Form: Life:
Adaptation, Invention, Healing, Renewal. (f) Planets: Earth: Sun: or Form: Matter: Life:
Regeneration, Re-creation, Change of Nature, Art. All phenomena on earth, known
and unknown, belong to one or another of these six processes. For there are no others.
And no others are possible
The first process is the creation of the chair. energy-matter form. Some energy from that of a skilled craftsman to a robot lathe cut and shapes, fits together the material-then it is a chair. It could have been a bookshelf, a coffee table but we have a chair. What is usually missed by the normal mind is that this process is a descending octave, energy enters mass to create a form. This first process also includes multiplication, elaboration and growth. It is very important to reflect on this process and that it is a descending octave. we often mistake this process as an ascending octave. When this happens we literally don’t know up from down.
In the second process time itself acts on the chair. This is decay, destruction, elimination
Life (energy) matter- form
Shakespeare discusses this second process in Sonnet 64
“When I have seen by Time’s fell hand defaced
The rich proud cost of outworn buried age;
When sometime lofty towers I see down-razed
And brass eternal slave to mortal rage;
When I have seen the hungry ocean gain
Advantage on the kingdom of the shore,
And the firm soil win of the watery main,
Increasing store with loss and loss with store;
When I have seen such interchange of state,
Or state itself confounded to decay;”
The third process is refinement, transformation, digestion
This process describes all that happens to the chair in terms of maintenance, cleaning, painting, restoration.
The 4th process is Form: Life: Matter:
Disease, Rebellion, Corruption, Crime.]
How can a chair be criminal. Well if you can’t sit on it its not a chair. So it can be a simple as some ice or thumb tacks. Is the electric chair criminal, objectively, using it to kill? It is also when it retains the form of a chair but is not useable.
In the 5th process
(e) Earth: Planets: Sun: or Matter: Form: Life:
Adaptation, Invention, Healing, Renewal.
we see something as simple as standing on a chair to change a lite bulb. All verity of specialized chairs, like wheel chairs that are part of healing, and the simple use of a chair for a primary purpose to sit and renew ones energies.
The 6th process
(f) Planets: Earth: Sun: or Form: Matter: Life:
Regeneration, Re-creation, Change of Nature, Art.
This process is similar to creation but the order is reversed. In this process form organizes matter to create life. The Mona Lisa is a great example. A couple of bucks worth of canvas, paint and wood yet through some magic it conveys some incredible energies of a higher order.
This is just a simple example of right thinking. Right thinking is thinking with scale and relativity. This means Octaves and triads. Right thinking leads to right action. This is an important part of both the teaching of the Buddha and the Tao, The I-Ching.
I believe that the system is an important tool in developing right thinking. However it is also an instruction manual on developing individuality, consciousness, conscience and will.
How then can it be used to justify a criminal ideology. The model is when form destroys life and leaves matter. The form of the Fellowship destroy object conscience and consciousness while claiming to develop them. This is crime in an objective sense.
The system is an object, call it a map. The value is in its use. The Fellowship of Friends did not invent the system, did not use it effectively, do not use it effectively and have added little of value. The system is still as it was unchanged available to do its intended work, which as with all B influence is to be there for magnetic center and ones own inner development.
It is an interesting and unfortunate development that “the system” designed as was Buddha’s Teaching to be as free of preconception as possible is now considered a “loaded ideology” because of the Fellowship of Friends. In the world wide community of those who have tried to follow the teachings of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky the Fellowship has become a joke, an object of horror and dismay. It members considered gullible fools tricked by a charismatic fraud into devoting their precious magnetic centers to building his shrine , his temple to his divinity. That is the true purpose of Isis. A temple and shrine to its divine goddess.
If this blog helps to shed a little of the light of truth on this criminal perverted sexual predator
it is a good thing. Remember. Robert is already writing his own epithet , his followers are planning his elevation to the status of a divine messenger. Let the truth exist also.
Similar to “Observer,” I too stumbled upon this blog when I Googled OH (as you call it) because I am moving to that area soon. Wondering what the area was like, what it looked like, what type of recreation was there, etc….I then learned about the FoF group from this blog.
At first, it scared the bejesus outta me. I’m a skeered of cults!! Plus I have children and the whole RB pervert thing really made me think twice about relocating to this area.
Then I read more & more. Wow what a fascinating education. I have no idea what Fourth Way thinking is all about (even as I try to understand your writings, I must be too…..stupid?……to understand it) But that’s cool because, as a recovering Catholic, I’m not into groups anyway. Any how…..as I was saying, what a fantastic education. Some of you are brilliantly funny and I have learned a thing or two from the blog about the area.
So, when I visited the area a few weeks ago to find a place to live, I actually entered a “fellowship” house. Not knowing at first. But with all the googling I’ve done and the autographed photo of RB on the table in the living room, it was pretty obvious. I got freaked out and well needless to say, I won’t be living THERE!
By posting here today, I wanted to say thanks to you brave people who’ve left the group ~~ maybe our paths will cross someday if you’re still in the area. Since I will know no one when I move there in a few months, I look forward to making new friends. Until then I look forward to reading your insightful and sometimes hilarious posts (especially Bruce & a former student <—- that last post made me spit Dr. Pepper all over the computer screen) Thanks …..sticky keys…LOL
Peace,
New Kid
Observer (178), I’m impressed with how quickly you’ve been able to develop a sense for Fellowship-ese:
• strong connection to FoF
• have been able to understand that FoF was a Fourth Way school
• Ouspensky and Gurdjieff were the philosphers upon whom much of the initial ideas of the school were based
• philosophical underpinnings of the Fourth Way
• I don’t really wish to…
• would make the main ideas clearer
• substantial understanding
• inspiring and fascinating
• it is interesting to ponder
• gossip
• etc.
Truly, you would fit right in with us. :)
197 a former student
I think it’s “epitaph”.
Una amio writes”Thank you both, again, for your very clear messages as to what you need from your friends; complete obedience within the framework of formatory argument; any attempt to reconcile both sides, bringing to light neither a winner or a loser is seen as a threat…
I understand this and wish you both well.”
Get off it, your such a victim here.
a socratic type of argument is a viable means of discussion. Especially on the blog. It is normal debating position to take a side and develop it. It is left to the reader or listener to process the information. I do not imagine I’m right and it does not matter that’s not the point. The point is to ask questions and challange assumptions. In this case what is brought up are meaningful questions. Is the sysetm objective knowledge? Is self remembering possible? Is the system an ideology inherently heirarchical? These are actuall primary questions for the blog and central to the discussion.
a former student 197
gullible fools tricked by a charismatic fraud into devoting their precious magnetic centers to building his shrine , his temple to his divinity
*********************
You’ve got the old queen of clubs going at full chub today don’t you?
Here’s what happened, when I first posted to the blog under the handle The King of Clubs you could click on the name tag on the post and connect to my website, Scott did that and upon discovering my identity he responded to a post of mine on the blog by inviting me to join his Stillpoint discussion list. I had a look over there found the discussion idiotic and then un-subscribed. Then Scott, good naturedly, requested a friends link with me on the Greater Fellowship site and I refused his request mainly because his picture looks like a post office wanted poster for a serial killer, but also because the weirdo has some kind of competitive obsession toward me that is constantly eating at him. He requested again, I refused again for the above reasons. All this added up to one serious narcissistic injury, thus the sudden sociopathic intensity-level outbursts. The negative zeal is that of a lunatic and contributes to rendering this space unusable for anything meaningful and for my part in that I apologize. I attracted this energy and am no innocent bystander. It’s nothing I don’t deserve due to plenty of bad karma on my part and it is nothing I can’t absorb and smile about.
Hello.
I need to get this straight.
“Graduates” is someone who calls himself “Gregory Goodwin”, has a website called “Graduates of the Fellowship” and is a self-described “Man number five”?
Did I get this right?
If so, can I assume he’s hoping for a few followers?
LL
Regarding Greg’s Aphorisms, I’m not ‘taking sides’, but offering an observation.
The great thing about Greg’s thoughts, as they are, on the Web, is that you can take them or leave them. I’ve had a brief look at some of the aphorisms, and will look at them all. So far, some of them resonate, some of them are not clear to me, and some seem quite subjective. I can choose, or use, any of them, as I like. I assume Greg is sincere, and is offering a sincere gift, and I thank him; it must have taken a tremendous effort on his part. There is no reason, if some of his writing resonates, why I cannot slip (temporarily) into the role of student, and learn something of value to me at my level of being in my present state, and if I do, there is no obligation to continue. I can also came back at another time and state, and see if there is something more to learn from that different viewpoint. Whatever, I can try to be grateful, and thank him, and I do. Thanks, Greg!
In contrast I offer something which demands a much higher payment. We know the value Burton places on these thoughts (“priceless”), and the huge payments required to receive these—some of ‘his’ finest creations. I leave to your judgment which offerings (and which mode of presentation) provide the greater value.
With love to all, ‘in’ and ‘out,
Ames
_____________________________________
THOUGHTS FROM THE TEACHER
“Notes from Egypt”
Isis, April 30, 2006 Volume 5 – Number 27
When all of a sudden you rise to presence and do the sequence, you see everything is asleep.
Rabia said, “O Lord, take away the words of the devil that mix with my prayer.”
Last night after sunset, you could hear the donkeys’ braying mixed in with the call to prayer.
The donkey has such a harsh braying sound because he has nothing to say in relation to the sequence.
To create an account with itself, the lower self will intone Back louder in order to break an even intonation.
One must watch for gesticulation in the moving center while talking. In such cases, the moving center tries to do the work of the intellectual center, which results in considerable unnecessary movement.
External consideration during the sequence is not virtuous; it is a trick from the lower self.
I recently opened a book of Petrarch’s letters and after one sentence realised that this was not right. Although the sentence presented a noble thought, Petrarch did not know the sequence.
Observing the quietness of students at the reception, I was grateful for the wit exercise. The seven of hearts is the number one servant of the lower self.
It comes down to the six Work ‘I’s, being careful with the 4th one and repeating the sequence.
The work ‘I’s are miracle workers, engaging miraculous presence.
Only if one is definite upon reaching long Be and intones it accordingly does it last.
The Egyptian school chose to use embalming and mummification because everything takes place in the second state, even the steward and the work ‘I’s.
The treasures have left the tomb, but more importantly, the treasures of information remain intact.
Thoth recording signifies engaging presence; each work ‘I’ leaves a trace.
It might seem to be interesting work for an archaeologist to re-assemble a temple, but it is really the wrong focus. People are their lower selves.
The only way to understand these things is not to want to be right, but to want to get it right.
In all religions, the outer meaning destroys people.
Schools are always aware of what they have and life is never aware of what it lacks.
With the meetings the further you go on the subject, the more you understand — wonderfully simple.
We rule the waves of imagination with this system.
We are fortunate to have the privilege of making the payment to receive the keys.
It becomes increasingly clear that it is all one testament. Usually each school reaches out only to the school before it, whereas we are being allowed access to all schools.
To us in schools, everything is whispering Be.
Toast given on April 20, 2006, during dinner at Luxor:
The Egyptian Texts say, “It has come happily to an end.” Let us toast to work ‘I’ number six, engaging prolonged presence.
Copyright 2006 Fellowship of Friends.
____________________________________________
Note: I have copied the above, for discussion only, under the laws and doctrine of Fair Use, and acknowledge ownership by the Fellowship of Friends.
Laughing Love 202
a self-described “Man number five”?
***********
Incorrect. I don’t claim such a thing, this is an envious projection by one of my critics.
204
“Incorrect. I don’t claim such a thing, this is an envious projection by one of my critics.”
You are unfuckingbelievable.
Hey, Unoanimo
That camel herder you told about “Self-remembering” wasn’t the “Baleful Bedouin of Baloney” was he? He should be near by. We are half way out into the desert.
”Thank you both, again, for your very clear messages as to what you need from your friends; complete obedience within the framework of formatory argument; any attempt to reconcile both sides, bringing to light neither a winner or a loser is seen as a threat…”
I believe the term for this rhetorical technique is whiny passive aggression.
Another view of “the King of Hearts”:
“When the King of Hearts in Alice in Wonderland tries to calm the Mad Hatter’s hysteria by saying, “don’t be nervous or I’ll have you executed on the spot,” the warning could easily have emerged from the lips of a passive-aggressive man. “Yes, no!” “Stop, go!” “I never lie, I was just protecting you from the truth!” What does he mean? The King of Hearts and most passive-aggressive men share the maddening characteristic of never saying exactly what they mean.
. . . .
Problems arise with the passive-aggressive man because of his fatal flaw: an indirect and inappropriate way of expressing hostility hidden under the guise of innocence, generosity or passivity. If what he says or does confuses you, or, more likely, angers you, this is why. You’re not the only one to react this way. It’s what passive-aggression is all about.
from Living With the Passive-Aggressive Man by Scott Wetzler:
http://www.simonsays.com/content/book.cfm?sid=287&pid=404304&agid=2
To py (137)
Thank you for sharing your story.
I hope you’ll participate more.
Truthfully, I didn’t even know that I needed to express myself about these issues until the opportunity arose. I have found that communicating here allows me to learn more about why I was compelled to join.
Perhaps most of all, one can forgive oneself by reading and writing here.
Through the years, I have only had one person (who escaped the school alongside me), with whom to laugh raucously about our experience.
Well, I do know one other very pithy current member who has, without challenging me, continued to work with me in the creative field, despite my departure. This only surprised me at first until I realized that he has a secret, but very good sense of humor and a private sense of relativity to piety, despite his extraordinarily deep involvement, which is rooted in a noble attempt to manage alcoholism. We never talk about the school.
Another person, who was secondarily responsible for my induction (the pithy member was the first influence), and with whom I was extraordinarily close, played an impotent, but nasty joke on me when I left. It appeared that he needed to rub my face in whatever it was that he would be rubbing my face in. He was so angry with me. He pursued and visited me several years later and ended up playing out yet another attempt at insult on a very base level.
I wonder if he’s still in. His wild, wonderful, talented spirit was (is?) tamped deeply down by his adherence to the crazy school.
LL
LOS ANGELES — Cardinal Roger Mahony, leader of the nation’s largest Roman Catholic archdiocese, apologized Sunday to the hundreds of people who will get a share of a $660 million settlement over allegations of clergy sex abuse.
More here:
http://www.kcra.com/news/13684158/detail.html
on 16 Jul 2007 at 10:11 pm
179 Graduates
Thanks Scott, for that effort I certainly owe you a beer.
That is a strange thing to offer an alcoholic Greg.
I have not had alcohol in a long time.
Hello Laughing love ~ (209)
You wrote ~
“It appeared that he needed to rub my face in whatever it was that he would be rubbing my face in. He was so angry with me. He pursued and visited me several years later and ended up playing out yet another attempt at insult on a very base level.”
___________________
Thank you for writing this; it’s (beyond coincidence) arrival and placement in the blog order of posts “hit the bull’s eye”.
Yes, nearly any sort of information can be seen as truth on one level, particularly when applied to the ‘truth-finders’ own uncanny ability to demonstrate it’s talent of hiding it’s own faults and humanness with clinical dialog and cold hearted stealth precision in its attempt at castrating the soul…
I have linked this strange desire to ‘castrate’ to a very old teenage blockage, usually having started in most of it’s ‘clients’ from their first and only failed attempt at bowling;
a mainly American ’sport’ where the ’sport’ gesticulates certain ‘ritualistic looking’ body language to then ‘let fly’ a heavy ball, usually containing ‘three holes’; this (unbeknown to the players) having originated from a game medieval monks would play with the skulls of the plagues deceased, i.e., two eye holes and the nose cavity; knocking down empty bottles of their brotherhoods ‘favorite wine’.
It must be kept in mind that the original ‘bowling game’ took place in a long corridor WITHOUT GUTTERS, very late at night and by candlelight, usually accompanied by those stomachs who had consumed said “empty bottles of wine”.
Now, having “no gutters” is ‘key’ here, for the ‘ball’ or ‘oddly rolling skull’ had no chance of missing its aimed for target; thus the gamer always hit something due to the skull bouncing off the side walls, resulting in absolutely no disappointments within the context of both their will to hit all the bottles and the ‘objective fact’ that the skull never really traveled the same path no matter how you rolled it, unless of course you threw it, though this was only allowed as a finishing gesture at the games end and by the Friar.
So, Laughing Love, as you know, all conscious ‘forms’ descend, hence, the ‘gutter ball’ scenario of today;
whereas, eventually, too many gutter balls results in the subconscious wish that all balls would just ‘go home’ to where they came from or simply ‘roll away’ someplace else, where ever it is that balls go to die, similar to elephants.
This, as the Fellowship of Friends would have it, ‘B Influence addition’ (not unlike their sequence and thirty work I’s) of the ‘gutter’ to the bowling ‘alley’ could serve as pithy material for a Doctorate thesis for a newly, sponged from the kitchen sink, psychological analyzer;
whose strange concoction of nerves of steel, a ‘good’ excuse for everything and text book quotes as referential to everything but their own being experience, has brought into the world, in this era of 2007, the curiously perplexing desire to roll TWO balls at once down a single, mirror polished lane, thus doubling the very recent pathological condition’s ‘already pretty tough to get out of nature’, which asserts the automatic, subconscious wish that there be ‘no balls’ at all and that ’sports’ should simply celebrate the possibilities of ‘goals’ and take no chances at seeing themselves as spritzy beings intimently connected to chance and the love of the dance.
___________________
l.t.y.a.
In post #152 Uno animo writes
first an excerpt from an earlier post of mine
“if self remembering is possible” then can you explain it to someone who cannot experience it? The answer is no. This is all that separates man #4 from man #1,#2 and #3.”
_______________
A former student, where do you get this stuff?
The answer is never ‘no’… I myself have proven this, albeit to myself, yet, I cannot believe we are different species from other planets (yet);
while traveling in the East, I, during a brief meeting with a certain ‘camel driver’ introduced him to self remembering; I have no idea what he ever did with ‘the spark’, yet, I am certain that ‘he got it’ and burned with it in my presence;
This is really not well thought out. I did not write you cannot explain self remembering to someone who never heard of it but to someone who does not have the ability to experience it.
The more you try the more confusing it becomes. I know this from my own experience. It was something that both Rodney Collin and Ouspensky wrote about.
in another exchange you take this excerpt
108 ~ ‘a former student’ wrote ~
“This is an if question “if the system is objective knowledge” what then? Is there any test? Only self remembering. But here is the Key , again an if question “if self remembering is possible” then can you explain it to someone who cannot experience it? The answer is no. This is all that separates man #4 from man #1,#2 and #3.”
_____________________
Try this ~ “If I am objective knowing, what then?”
Self remembering is not a test, it’s passing and moving on, out of the classroom; getting off your test-taking-butt and living more than ‘just a little’.
What is your problem. It is a very simple question. The theory is that the system is objective knowledge the test is self remembering.
The idea is that only you can answer this question. What in your brain does not allow you to be simple?
The opposition in the interchange with VP is positive because it is one of the ways the intellectual center works. This is a fact and your obtuse enough to argue it which proves it but you can’t see it. Your so confident of you profound insights that it does not occur to you that your missing a lot of what’s happening because your imagination about your consciousness is blocking the view.
There is a lot of positive material in your post’s and I encourage you to keep it up. I just wish you condense your writing so it is not as painful to read ( because of my damaged eyesight due to diabetes)
on 17 Jul 2007 at 12:02 am
201 Graduates wrote
Here’s what happened, when I first posted to the blog under the handle The King of Clubs you could click on the name tag on the post and connect to my website, Scott did that and upon discovering my identity he responded to a post of mine on the blog by inviting me to join his Stillpoint discussion list. I had a look over there found the discussion idiotic and then un-subscribed.
This is false Greg. I did not know “The King of Clubs was you. I posted a link to Stillpoint in many of my early posts. You joined under a false name ( because you have been banned on Stillpoint for years) refused to perform the difficult entrance exam which is to say Hello and what you want and left. You then started insulting me on the blog.
Greg -reality check- if Stillpoint was lacking-which it certainly is- than why didn’t you contribute something positive?
Ames points out that there is some valuable material in your aphorism’s I disagree. They are bullshit because they are not real. You don’t do what you write. Now maybe Ames, who usually seems sincere would actually try and be the words. That is a big difference.
you write
“Scott, good naturally, requested a friends link with me on the Greater Fellowship site and I refused his request mainly because his picture looks like a post office wanted poster for a serial killer, but also because the weirdo has some kind of competitive obsession toward me”
Greg your an arrogant Ass. I requested a lot of friends if you refused your a fool. I joined your group called rude argument but couldn’t get a reasonable argument going. Now you cannot restrain yourself you have to use personal insults. Do you have any idea how petty you seem? How really, really stupid it is to write.
“The solitary truth is that a man needs to transform all of his life and then radiate the resultant fine emotion into the lives of others.”
Then whine about how “the weirdo has some kind of competitive obsession toward me that is constantly eating at him.”
It is not competitive Greg. It is target practice and you haven’t figured out your the target. It does not take a lot to make you contradict yourself. It amusing to see you foam at the mouth.
“The negative zeal is that of a lunatic and contributes to rendering this space unusable for anything meaningful and for my part in that I apologize.”
There are meaningful exchanges Greg your just not part of them.
“To stab them with the truth with foreknowledge that it will injure is more deceptive than outright lies.”
on 17 Jul 2007 at 9:06 am
211 unoanimo
Just what we needed. The rap was bad, I go to a place called “The Starry Plough” in Berkeley where they have a regular poetry slam, doncheck out what’s happening in the real world, the “Finnegans wake” imitation dreary and now this imitation Gurdjieff is there a real you? Behind these walls of words which do more to hide than reveal is there any core of truth?
on 15 Jul 2007 at 9:28 pm
131 Simple Truth wrote
Bruce, Why are you insulting, if I only Wrote Thoughts of Counscious Men.
you can not see? that all that i wrote is more valuable than the stuff and insults that live in you.
to isult is mechanical, have you verify this? or you not are interested on work over yourself?
This is true Fellowship programming. Don’t be real, don’t express yourself, calm yourself with others thoughts.
You add little to the dialogue. Bruce adds one human being expressing their own truth and that really the best any one has to offer.
And don’t presume to judge my or anyone elses work by externals. Inner work is inner. Read the new testement if your into quotes. It is Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Freinds corrupt teachjing that stresses externals, that justify’s and supportes this habit of judging externals. You don’t need an esoteric school for this any Church is the same.
on 17 Jul 2007 at 12:22 am
204 Graduates
Laughing Love 202
a self-described “Man number five”?
***********
Incorrect. I don’t claim such a thing, this is an envious projection by one of my critics.
It almost enobles you that you have critics.
You have claimed it Greg. You imply it in your presentation of infomation as coming from a higher mind-you.
You won’t claim it here because no one would believe it. You get that Gregory no one believes it.
“Men hardly realize how many gaps there are in their understanding until they try to explain their understanding to others and are carefully questioned concerning the details.”
Let us see Gregory how you respond to questions regarding your understanding.
That’s right, I am a retarded fool, an alcoholic, addict, mentally ill and jealous and competitive?
You need to learn to be the words Gregory.
As Gurdjieff said to Ouspensky “if you understood what you have written I would come to you as a student”.
If you Gregory Goodwin could be what you write I would come to you with respect and an eagerness to learn. you don’t , I don’t, as you said you don’t have good Karma.
160 Another Name
Dear Former student and all others.
I am so glad you, do not show anything in your writings of a stimulus response reaction. A true example of being above the stimulus response.
Thanks and enjoy your day fully.
Sit still for a moment and enjoy your own compagny.
What you see in others is also in your selfs brothers…
The arrogance of this is so typical of the type of thinking that is indoctrinated into members of the fellowship of Friends. Expressing your self is mechanical. Imitating Roberts conscious acts is real, Get this-the mechanics never go away and conscious acts are just acts. I had Roberts acts down pat. Even his Gucci shoes to wear and a Hermes tie hey now that consciousness. I was dressed for success and ready to go.
We have different roles. I applied for and accepted the job as gadfly on the blog. Socrates was always my hero. There are other voices. Ames is reasonable takes the time to articulate his veiws, Joel does a good job at tolorance and even a bit of repentence, Bruce still works that rebel without a clue to death and is a fairly sharp spotter of BS. Greg Goodwin is the fool he shows that words without being are worse than being without words. Bass Ackwards does a nice insight and thoughtful consideration. Uno animo does an excellent “look in my head see the uncontrolled flow of associations”. All parts of a larger whole. A whole that is discouraged in the Fellowship. It rather than the rigid imitation of conscious acts reflects individuality, consciousness, conscience and will.
I want to model individuality and the opposite of Fellowship think which is to maintain the facade of being awake at all costs. To not act mechanical what crap. I want to model being cranky, unreasonable, contradictory, opinionated and self rightous in other words human. I think that Fellowship members have a stick up their ass that makes them do little puppet dances of Fellowship acts. If you need it you now have permission to stop.
I merely take what works for me. This blog is not King of Diamonds or King of Hearts material. I work very much from my Queen of Hearts. That is good , it is good to be passionate , the queen is not rational or moderate.
Even if it does not seem true I restrain my self quite a bit when I read a lot of the sanctimonious BS that more recently departed members have to say. I’ve had 25 years to process my experiences. I really believe that its important to get over trying to be what ever you imagibe a more conscious being or good student should be and be yourself. ain’t that the aim to become real? One?
I have had layer after layer of illusion stripped away. If you have not done the work, lived through the suffering and had to over and over face your own self then you don’t know much that is real. Neither You nor anyone else who hasn’t been through “the dark night of the soul” can judge anything about the emotional intensity needed to produce real transformational experiences.
The problem with Gregory Goodwins aphorism’s is they are written by someone who imagines they are awake, a unity and has the power to do. Theyu are a typical Fellowship of Friends imitation of Robert Burton.
They are not much use to man #4
Here is a few aphorisms for man #4
Only when your own sleep and mechanicality becomes emotionaly irritating enough to you will you begin to awaken
and a corrolary
the only shock consistant enough to help us awaken on a moment to moment basis is our own sleep
you cannot be in denial about any part of yourself and grow more conscious
you don’t have to be nice to people if you help even one be a little more awake thats enough
It is difficult to help someone who doesn’t know they need it
truth without compassion is harsh and unforgiving. Compassion is self remembering, remember you do the same things you see in others
So to anyone who may have waded through this son of a blog take these aphorisms as a gift, see if they are of any use. They are part of my truth.
In closing a quote from Walt my favorite poet and favorite poem “Crossing the Brooklyn Ferry”
I too had receiv’d identity by my Body;
That I was, I knew was of my body—and what I should be, I knew I should be of my body.
7
It is not upon you alone the dark patches fall,
The dark threw patches down upon me also;
The best I had done seem’d to me blank and suspicious; 70
My great thoughts, as I supposed them, were they not in reality meagre? would not people laugh at me?
It is not you alone who know what it is to be evil;
I am he who knew what it was to be evil;
I too knitted the old knot of contrariety,
Blabb’d, blush’d, resented, lied, stole, grudg’d, 75
Had guile, anger, lust, hot wishes I dared not speak,
Was wayward, vain, greedy, shallow, sly, cowardly, malignant;
The wolf, the snake, the hog, not wanting in me,
The cheating look, the frivolous word, the adulterous wish, not wanting,
Refusals, hates, postponements, meanness, laziness, none of these wanting. 80 …………………………………………
8Closer yet I approach you;
What thought you have of me, I had as much of you—I laid in my stores in advance; 90
I consider’d long and seriously of you before you were born.
Who was to know what should come home to me?
Who knows but I am enjoying this?
Who knows but I am as good as looking at you now, for all you cannot see me?
Hey Guys,
As you may have noticed, grammatically, Simple Truth is not a native English speaker. So, that poster will have difficulty expressing their own personal understanding in their own words – perhaps because he or she is busy absorbing what he or she considers to be a Conscious Teaching that is delivered in an English that he or she could still struggling to understand? Time is a factor…
OK, OK, a big Kahuna, or a very ripe mangoe would not respond formatorily, even in a foreign language. But then again, if I were a ripe mangoe, I’d rather just fall and merge with that luscious earth than challenge some silly characters on a computer screen.
Cheers,
Bass
Thank you, A Former Student. Nice aphorisms deserve repeating, with very minor editing, no offense is intended:
You cannot be in denial about any part of yourself and become more conscious
You don’t have to be nice to people; if you help even one be a little more awake that’s enough.
It is difficult to help someone who doesn’t know that they need it
Truth without compassion is harsh and unforgiving. Compassion is Self Remembering, remember you do the same things you see in others.
Brooklyn Ferry runs by my door…
Love,
Bass
New comments: 198, 211.
Consider that “spiritual seeking” & the desire for enlightenment is other than what we imagine it to be. We imbue specific actions and feelings with a legitimacy & authenticity that may belie the reality. We enoble some weak or abberrant aspect of ourselves by creating an entire mythology: the myth of awakening & “work on oneself”.
The FOF (like many groups) springs up to cater to our needs – as defined by self-serving, limiting definitions of our inner experiences.
I thought it worth repeating what the Sheik posted much earlier. The following excerpt (from John Welwood) is completely unreadable and unacceptable to people who are not ready to question the basis of their own behavior – but for those that are approaching readiness…
“…I began to perceive a disturbing tendency among many members of spiritual communities. Although many spiritual practitioners were doing good work on themselves, I noticed a widespread tendency to use spiritual practice to bypass or avoid dealing with certain personal or emotional ‘unfinished business’. This desire to find release from the earthly structures that seem to entrap us-the structures of karma, conditioning, body, form, matter, personality-has been a central motive in the spiritual search for thousands of years. So there is often a tendency to use spiritual practice to try to rise above our emotional and personal issues-all those messy, unresolved matters that weigh us down. I call this tendency to avoid or prematurely transcend basic human needs, feelings, and developmental tasks spiritual bypassing.
Spiritual bypassing is particularly tempting for people who are having difficulty navigating life’s developmental challenges, especially in a time and culture like ours, where what were once ordinary landmarks of adulthood-earning a livelihood through dignified work, raising a family, keeping a marriage together, belonging to a meaningful community-have become increasingly elusive for large segments of the population. While still struggling to find themselves, many people are introduced to spiritual teachings and practices that urge them to give themselves up. As a result, they wind up using spiritual practices to create a new ’spiritual’ identity, which is actually an old dysfunctional identity-based on avoidance of unresolved psychological issues-repackaged in a new guise.
In this way, involvement in spiritual teachings and practices can become a way to rationalize and reinforce old defences. For example, those who need to see themselves as special will often emphasize the specialness of their spiritual insight and practice, or their special relationship to their teacher, to shore up a sense of self-importance. Many of the ‘perils of the path’-such as spiritual materialism (using spiritual ideas for personal gain), narcissism, inflation (delusions of grandiosity), or groupthink (uncritical acceptance of group ideology)-result from trying to use spirituality to shore up developmental deficiencies. — John Welwood”
This one’s for you Scott:
http://www.traditionalyogastudies.com/reviews_esoterica_ouspensky.html
Gary Lachman. In Search of P. D. Ouspensky: The Genius in the Shadow of Gurdjieff. Wheaton, Ill.: Quest Books, 2004. Hardcover, 329 pages, US $24.95.
“The Ouspensky emerging from Lachman’s treatment is an individual who early in life was an old soul who saw through conventional life and had glimpses of the “miraculous” reality hidden from the view of ordinary folk; who was fascinated with biology as a child but was bored with regular schooling and later disliked and avoided academia; who, as an adult, found women more interesting than men and treated them with chivalry (unlike Gurdjieff); who was fascinated with dreams and was an inveterate lucid dreamer; who had an experience of “cosmic consciousness” prior to meeting Gurdjieff; who went to India in search of spiritual awakening but returned empty handed only to attach himself to Gurdjieff; who was an authoritarian but also self-divided, lonely, and often dour individual; who was naturally reticent and impersonal who, as the years went by, would stay up half the night drinking.
“After spending several years in the United States, Ouspensky returned to England in 1947—a sick and apparently broken man who, when asked whether he had abandoned “the System” replied: “There is no System.”
Unnnooo… :(
Are they hurtin’ on ya?
The glaciers are melting on Everest!
Speak now or forever….
Now, just what would it mean to hold one’s ‘peace’ at times like these?
I love all that you say, the way that you say it and all that is behind it; even when a little balsamic comes my way. Ahhhh, in fact, I don’t mind at all, especially if it’s the kind from Modena that’s aged in oak barrels like they serve at The French Laundry. …Thick, full bodied, aromatic, a little woody…
^i^
2b #171
For what it’s worth, I can actually remember attending a meeting where the topic was ‘ The four obstacles to self-remembering’ of course leaving out ‘lying’. Who and where is not so clear, though.
hi everybody,
someone (thank you someone) posted this video on the GF site and I think it’s too good not to be shared here also.
friends, let’s get those brain cells working and turn them bodies electric!
we know we can do it, if only we want it so bad….
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=eOy3H4yyocQ
“It is a very simple question. The theory is that the system is objective knowledge the test is self remembering.” Scott
Hi Scott, getting back to the discussion… What are you calling self remembering? Divided attention? Being present? Awareness? Individual awareness? Individual conscience? Collective consciousness? Collective conscience?
Then –is there only ONE test? Are we all supposed to agree on that?
—————-
You say “Do you have any idea how petty you seem? How really, really stupid it is to write”
I don’t know what your beef is and I don’t want to follow the long convoluted list of accounts you have in your emotional bank. But I thought this was really wonderful:
by Greg- “truth without compassion is harsh and unforgiving. Compassion is self remembering, remember you do the same things you see in others”
————–
“The Mona Lisa is a great example. A couple of bucks worth of canvas, paint and wood yet through some magic it conveys some incredible energies of a higher order.” Scott
There is a good book called “Becoming Mona Lisa” that is very enlightening. You might enjoy reading it. I heartily disagree with your above sentence and it sounds like you are just repeating something and have not considered that painting.
——————–
“Also as a beginner ask more talk less listen more.”chopsticks
Nonsense – besides, Observer is not a beginner
——————–
New Kid in Town
“So, when I visited the area a few weeks ago to find a place to live, I actually entered a “fellowship” house. Not knowing at first. But with all the googling I’ve done and the autographed photo of RB on the table in the living room, it was pretty obvious. I got freaked out and well needless to say, I won’t be living THERE!”
hahaha! Please keep us posted…
Jack Handy “I hope in the future Americans are thought of as a warlike, vicious people, because I bet a lot of hight schools would pick “Americans” as their mascot.”
Hello Shelley ~ (224)
You asked ~
“Now, just what would it mean to hold one’s ‘peace’ at times like these?”
_______________
It means being…
Good to see your footprints here.
Take gentle care.
_____________
l.t.y.a.
I don’t recognize the truth of the man numbers. And even if I did I would not give a god-damn. I’m much more inclined to the bodhisattva model. If a person finds a magic portal then check it out and hold the door open for all to enter before you.
And besides, I’m sick of all the ‘man’ stuff. I would rather hear the evolution of woman. “say, do you really think you are a woman # 5 or are you #6?” or, “that city is filled with women #1 thru #3″ Try it. Just change the gender for awhile and see what happens.
“New Kid in Town” – keep in mind that the house you looked at might be rented – the owner(s) might have left the Fellowship and would dearly love to sell, and cannot control what the renters display in the house. Or are you talking about some sort of residual karmic energy that you would not want to live with if you bought the house?
223 is a newly moderated comment.
223 – Wow – well worth reading. Thank you.
On religion, spicy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uBAPbOWLxc
Gratitude.
Sharon – 231
Yeah weird karmic energy was in that house. I don’t want to be judgmental at all ~~ I just didn’t feel comfortable. And then there was this overpowering weird smell that I just couldn’t place. Nice house though and I wish the sellers all the luck in the world, it’s so very hard to sell homes these days.
I found another house in the area, so it’s all good. I cannot wait to live in that beautiful, beautiful area surrounded by oaks and pines……My spirit will be renewed and my life will begin anew, I think. I just want so badly to get out of this rat race and find some peace & quiet & deer strolling by…..
What music do you all currently listen to? No pun intended but have you heard “Brian Jonestown Massacre?” Some of the best music I’ve ever heard (besides my old favs ~ Jimi & Janis + the Band + Zep, etc etc etc) I was born in the wrong decade ~~ could have been a Flower Child, but am in spirit, I guess.
Peace to you all…..see you soon
Kid
a former student 215
I joined your group called rude argument but couldn’t get a reasonable argument going.
*************************
There is a difference between indulging in a rude argument, which can be rather interesting if it includes the requisite level of intelligence and creative self-control, and a crass argument. A crass argument is pointless because the lack of intelligence is such that no instruction can be taken from it. In your case here is the actual situation, most likely: you’ve smoked some pot, you get on the internet driven by the brainless impulse to draw attention to yourself under the mistaken belief that you are a misunderstood mastermind, then you jabber on guided by the most basic form of FoF indoctrination, convinced that as long as you stick by what you were told you are winning debates, securing friends and storing up measured quantities of narcissistic supply. “Narcissistic supply,” that means you are feeding the self-esteem of a defensive personality within yourself that has developed in order to over compensate for the fact that underneath it all you feel inferior and worthless. Some people carry on this process in a very entertaining and intelligent fashion, they write famous novels, produce brilliant acting careers, become powerful politicians, but most end up sad, pathetic and belligerent sagging human rags sitting all night on a stool at the end of the bar trying to pick fights with people that could beat the hell out them if they didn’t feel so much pity. There is nothing more obviously a lie than a rather unintelligent man convincing himself that he is actually so intelligent that no one else gets it, it is the perfect buffer. The reason such people often go to so much trouble insisting publicly that everyone else recognize and acknowledge that it isn’t a lie but a reality is because without the outside recognition, without the approval and the reassurance then the inner emptiness begins to creep back up over the mouth, over the nose and the eyes to drown the man in the mediocre truth about himself.
236 Graduates
Do you apprehend that to many here your above statement is a perfect example of how you appear to others most of the time?
When reading your aphorisms what struck me the most was how transparently they reflected much of what you show to other people, while intimating that you were detached from what you were describing.
As our opinions are subjective (as Ames is able to glean useful info from your aphorisms), personally I found them vacuous, misogynistic and narcissistic.
Hello ‘A Former student’ ~ (214)
You wrote to me allot and to ignore someone who’s resisting my attempts to answer them in my own way, would be easy and ‘normal’ protocol for the ‘good student’;
Robert Burton has been doing that to ‘difficult students’ for 37+ years, booting them out and having them pay to get back in, if he allows it and still doesn’t have an account (grudge) towards them;
though I sense you and I can be (and are) more than that, far more;
the blog is at times a poor-tool to use, particularly when there’s such ‘touchy’ stuff going on: you seem pretty pissed off about something else, not people posting here on the blog, do you live in Oregon House? Maybe an eye to eye meeting is what we need, who knows; perhaps there is no ‘we’ desire on your part; let me know (?)
Naturally on the blog there is an assumption that one can just ‘jump in’ and join the private conversations of others; this ‘assumption’ I can certainly be held liable for and often stretch it to it’s snapping point:
yet, so far, the rewards are greater than the risks and I continue posting here for it’s a sort of muse for me, even when the muses are screaming through dry underbrush on fire… (I am not referring to you specifically BTW)…
I would be glad to have a dialog with you and wish to remain open to you, if that’s your wish…
We draw lines in the sand all the time, particularly when we have profound judgment calls of others spontaneous ‘natures’;
Just for the record, the only line from Veronique’s post that really interested ‘all of me’ was this one,
“And that entirely private thing I find valuable. But I doubt I could really explain it to anyone.”
which simply fell in between the cracks somehow, through the flurry of the far too obvious fuel for Socratic dialog, which, I hope I have the good freedom here on the blog to say,
that I am in no way interested in having ‘personally’;
it’s a form, having spent 7 years in 1 college and 2 Universities, that I’ve just worn the soles down to my bare feet with (not unlike Fred Flintstones automotive brakes);
and too, knowing that 9 out of 10 times it simply leads right back to itself and more of the same dialog (for me that is);
I began experimenting with a different sort of dialog some 10 years ago and find it more ’rounded’ and ‘expressive’ (for me) and I am trying to develop that, not to say that the Socratic form is not one of my cousins, I simply have moved away from being its ‘kissing cousin’.
Apart from your “imitation Gurdjieff” label of my monk-bowling story… How did you like the story itself?
I had allot of fun writing it and having the possibility to share it here on the blog.
I remember having a whole bunch of severe and fatalistic opinions about a really big, kinda simple looking guy in high school; till we befriended one another one afternoon.
See, I knew his name and had made eye contact several times, so he sorta knew me too…
Some guys were playing ‘bully me day’ with ‘your’s truly’, after lunch had ended and had me pinned in a corner,
I saw this ’simple looking guy’ and called out his name, asking him if he could come over and help me find out what it was that these guys needed.
Now, this ‘big guy’ was not your normal ‘football player’;
he was very quiet, shy, light on his feet, smiled allot and possessed not one drop of false personality (acting); just a big ‘farm boy’, as we called them in those days;
standing in at 6 foot 8, weighing in at least 300 lbs made him a rather unavoidable ‘Rosetta stone’ in the hallways of ‘the many tongues’… (with shoulders that measured at least 32 inches across or more)…
when he came over and simply stood by me and said “Yeah, _____________, how are you doing?” The bullies simply dissolved; I recorded this simple guys incredible aura of absolute objective presence…
not one threatening word came from his mouth,yet, there issued from him a sort of ‘I am-ness’, a kind of ‘you know that I know that you know I’ll eat you for lunch’ readiness and ease…
I’ll never forget those sorts of spirits; I still get goosebumps recalling them… and continued to this day to meet them all over the place, simple giants that simply do what they do and are nearly always open 25 hours a day to wonder over and apply their quiet presence to the possibility of a formidable, chaotic set of circumstances.
There is a certain kind of ‘magic’ in eye to eye contact, that we certainly, on this blog, often do not acknowledge it’s value, so far as when we can have it, that is… Yet words can ‘look’ too; certain ‘kinds’ of words.
BTW, just a quick ‘personal’ question, please do not take this as me crossing the line, it is an honest question that I would like to have an understanding of its answer for me and me only…
for a person that needs to have things condensed and shortened, you write allot here on the blog and lengthy at times, how is that? How is reading what you write different than that of others who have written? Curious…
_______________________________
Love to you all.
Bruce 237
236 Graduates
Do you apprehend that to many here your above statement is a perfect example of how you appear to others most of the time?
When reading your aphorisms what struck me the most was how transparently they reflected much of what you show to other people, while intimating that you were detached from what you were describing.
As our opinions are subjective (as Ames is able to glean useful info from your aphorisms), personally I found them vacuous, misogynistic and narcissistic.
**************
The difference between other people and you, Bruce, is that most others are not so phony that my phoniness threatens them. That’s why few of them even bother to comment. This is your problem, my phoniness is an affront to your phoniness.
That explains it all.
239
“The difference between other people and you, Bruce, is that most others are not so phony that my phoniness threatens them. That’s why few of them even bother to comment.”
And here all this time I thought it was because most people didn’t find it worth it to call you out on your shit. Live and learn.
238 unoanimo ~~
“I’ll never forget those sorts of spirits; I still get goosebumps recalling them… and continued to this day to meet them all over the place, simple giants that simply do what they do and are nearly always open 25 hours a day to wonder over and apply their quiet presence to the possibility of a formidable, chaotic set of circumstances”
Wow thank you for that.
Random acts of kindness that affect us profoundly and forever.
My abusive boyfriend once kicked me out of the car in the middle of nowhere. There was snow on the ground. I was wearing a dress. I was about 16-17 years old and alone and sobbing. I walked for what seemed like hours.
A car approached and I was terrified. The headlights grew closer, the car slowed down and stopped. I thought “Here it is, I’m gonna get abducted and killed.”
A voice came from the car and called out my name. WTF? Somehow in this vast universe, a misunderstood, geeky friend of mine from high school stopped his car in the middle of nowhere, calmed my fears and drove me at least 40 miles to my home.
Several years later, this same misunderstood, geeky guy was accused of all kinds of sexually criminal acts, which may or may not have been true. All I know is that he saved me that night and I’ll never forget it.
Random acts of kindness……………thank you
Peace,
Kid
Dear Former student,
Maybe I might even know you…typical fellowship talk?
I am glad you know more then me, enjoy your life too and do not forget to make friends, and friends with yourself.
I am sure we will meet….
Joy to you.
Thanks to all and joy.
Chopsticks I’m with you, I’m starting to get a little edgy about some people.
I have no way of knowing who “Observer” is, but I do know a person who was a schoolteacher in this area, a friend of a former member and I, but not a member her/himself.
Observer could be that person, and I find his/her posts credible and reasonable. This person has asked the very same questions of my friend and I in the past.
chopsticks, you advise Observer: “Also as a beginner ask more talk less listen more.”
What an arrogant, cultish attitude.
He IS asking! And listening and responding intelligently, furthering an interesting discussion.
A fascinating tale from the past. (Maybe it has been posted before?)
http://zanymystic.tripod.com/id11.html
Their was a Frank Lloyd Wright quote in the link in the last post. If anyone is interested in the connection between Gurdjieff and Wright, check out “The Fellowship–The Untold Story of Frank Lloyd Wright & The Taliesin Fellowship”. Wright’s second wife was a student of Gurdjieff’s.
In response to “New Kid in Town”
I grew up in Dobbins which is the next town over by Oregon House, there is a lot of great people up in this area. My parents have been here for more than 43 years.
I was only a student in Fellowship for around six months a few years ago. I would much rather have students as neighbors instead of the doppers up here!!!!
FOF has a lot of GREAT PEOPLE there. They WILL NOT HARM YOU!
Dear Time,
I went through http://zanymystic.tripod.com/id11.html.
what do you think is the fascinating tale…what is their to gain. I got really sad about this erson’ life. He seems still alive and probably I know him. What is the message according to you and what can we lear from this story?
Thanks and joy and good times to all of you.
238/unoanimo
Uno, I apologize for my harsh labeling of your response. I suspect what you wrote started out as something well meaning.
For future reference, the main thing that irritated me in your writing was its patronizing and omniescent tone, as though you “knew” that what was “missing from the dialogue was “love” and that my entirely private thing was a “key,” (“did you sense this?”) as though I probably missed its significance…all blithely stated in dreamy blank meter verse.
To state it affirmatively, please consider being more circumspect with your intuitions respecting a stranger. Presumptuousness concerning someone you don’t know is an inauspicious way to begin a friendship.
In fact I am actually open to talking about the thing which I would call “self remembering” (note absence of hyphen) if I were for some reason using the term. It has to do with memory generally and “self defining memories” in particular. It has to do with the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. They can change, and change to include more. That we have told ourselves a story about our lives does not commit us to that story. It can change and become truer as it includes more.
To Tim Campion (246)
I had not seen that testimonial. Very interesting.
Alcohol is a very potent numbing element in the fellowship scene. I think it’s really important to emphasize this aspect. It is a dreamy, numbing aphrodisiac.
One of the last fellowship events I attended was a “wine tasting”. It started out in a civilized manner in which all pretended to be fascinated with the host’s obviously limited knowledge. He repeatedly used the term “tannin”, and it rapidly became apparent that it was the only term he knew.
We were NOT instructed to delicately sip/taste and spit it out. About 35 minutes into the sacred tasting, everyone was smashed and each time he uttered his favorite word, “tannin”, great peals of laughter rang out.
With lightning speed the “refined tasting” transformed into a bacchanalian evening in which any attempt to learn about wine was confined to drinking great loads of the stuff.
Upon our departure, each reeling and laughing, I remember the host (who had the demeanor of an undertaker) offering a reminder that an additional payment for a piece of statuary had been “requested”, which simply seemed absurd, especially because I’d just paid a pretty penny for the “wine tasting”.
Who knows what we were drinking. In my experience, truly fine wines have a different effect on one’s state. They do not create head aches, hangovers or hysteria.
We were all, literally, hysterical lunatics.
LL
With all due respect to those who post earnestly and thoughtfully, this blog has for me become a negative, reactive, and rather depressing hodge-podge.
I had hoped here to find intelligent and positive guidance for my personal process of leaving the school, but the pickings have been very slim, indeed. Perhaps I should have offered more of myself, but…
Thanks to those who did offer freely some valuable illumination and support! All the best to you!
I wish you all well, bloggers, in your various endeavors, but I am out of here, and ne’er shall post again.
I’m always amused by the vows to never post again. Why bother? You are here reading, posting, or not. After a few days, or weeks, you might check in again, you might post, it’s all good. No one will hold you to it. Remember the many “i’s”???
Hello Veronicapoe ~ (249)
You wrote to me ~
“To state it affirmatively, please consider being more circumspect with your intuitions respecting a stranger. Presumptuousness concerning someone you don’t know is an inauspicious way to begin a friendship.”
______________________________
Now, please don’t take this as sarcasm, I just need some clarity here; so, you’re saying that I was off the mark on that intuition thing? Although, I did ask BTW, yes? So, I was not entirely ’sure’… just sensing something.
What you say is a ’shock’, as FoF-speak would have it; because ever since I was about 7 or 8 years old I have never had an ounce of fear towards ’strangers’, I grew up pretty quick due to some pretty odd ‘Raising Arizona Triads’, had an very early magnetic center and a strong instinctive intuit device, sorta built into my astrological luggage I guess, for the intuitions simply arrived (happened), I did not force them, later, I began learning how to ‘model’ certain ‘things I sensed’ to be a bit less ’surprising’ and ‘trespassing-like’…
Yet, it still seems to happen, that truly Veronique, I just don’t have the equipment not to see everyone as un-armored and open to real curiosity, not to mention that something happened to me some time ago, something that changed how I perceive people and I simply cannot go backwards; yet, I can learn something from your response, that is for sure:
I’ve spoken to hundreds of ‘types’, from millionaires to ex-convicts (and a few that have not been caught yet)…
Although, I have yet to meet one that did not let me pick their bolted doors with real human inquiry, a sense of humor and openness; I carry around allot of impressions and stories that people have confided in me, it builds and refines something very passionate in me and I burn…
It’s tough; I thank you for the apology: yet I must say that your guidelines to enter a friendship with you are a bit on the defensive side and its subjective to say the least;
it does not happen with everyone, some simply say, ‘Hey, that’s not it, though, this is and spill the beans or often it’s just one bean… And Jack in the Beanstalk can tell you that one bean is pretty significant in the right context.
I like you tenacity, it truly fuels something in my love, it’s an aspect that is difficult to find in essence; usually it’s associated with being a triple active type or a lunatic, though (I sense) it feeds your heart…
Thank you again; misunderstandings and naiveté is hopefully everyone’s hobby; I certainly find myself whittling on the front porch at least twice a week.
________________________________
Hello ‘New Kid in Town’ ~ (242)
Thank you for sharing your story…
Not to worry about that “overpowering weird smell”, that’s just one of the 44+ poltergeists belonging to the Fellowship of Friends; they’re pretty friendly for the most part…
If you see or hear any weird stuff just break a bottle of Renaissance wine on the front and back porches, burn a few Bible concordances, that should take care of it; if not, give me a ring here on the blog, I’ve got some ‘heavyweights’ I can conjure up from the early Byzantine empire;
not to fret, we’ve got yo back girl…
___________________________
l.t.y.a.
Yeah, My2bits, what ‘if memory serves’ said; after all you can always change your name…
And I think you’re absolutely right with your ‘intuition’ concerning
“Perhaps I should have offered more of myself, but…”
I recall that Rodney Collin said that it was the word “but” that kept us from moving in a certain direction…
It’s odd that you would wish to leave after having such an epiphany; it reminds me of people who would drop out of high school right in the middle of twelfth grade, that really freaked me out (after all, it created memory LOL)…
Welp… love to you and may the best man not win; if you know what I mean, aka, Ouspensky like.
___________________
l.t.y.a.
From Michelangelo Buonarotti, better known as a sculptor:
You know that I know, my lord, that you know
that I draw close to take pleasure in you,
and you know that I know that you know who I am;
so why do you delay our acknowledging each other?
If true is the hope that you give to me,
if true is the great desire that I’ve been given,
let the wall between them be broken down,
for doubly violent are concealed woes.
If I only love in you, my dear lord,
that which you love in yourself, do not scorn
for one spirit has fallen in love with another.
That which I desire and learn from your beautiful face
is imperfectly comprehended by human minds:
who wishes to know it must first die.
(1532)
Double post, deleted. — ES
Dear Observer and New Kid
I need to thank you personally, from the bottom of my heart.
When I entered the fof I was in many ways a damaged person and running away from that. Damaged by….who knows…an incomplete essence….basic stupidity…some really bad crap from childhood…not being able to deal with it….attracting situations that reflected that bad crap which could help me. It helped me to come to a rejection of the horridness of the ‘leader’ …the ‘teacher’ and the thinking that was pervasive. For me, it was a way into first escaping, and then addressing some (some) of that bad crap.
After I left the fof I was so ashamed of ever being associated with a group such as that. And, I moved to Oregon where the criminal group of Rashnish had been located who actually tried to poison neighbors at a salad bar. Gross. Horrible. In spades.
That shame stayed with me for a year, then two then …..then…..then…. Now it has been 22 years since I left and the shame had become like background muzak and I never even noticed it – just didn’t “”"”"”share”"”"”"” any of my life before moving here and being a ‘good person’. I was born just 17 and 1/2 years ago (hahahahahaha)
I wanted SO MUCH to be a ‘normal person’ (meaning I wanted to **feel** normal and good inside) and I have spent so much energy and time with it. That meant denying my real deep interests in these ideas and most of all, these folks —-this community. When I got connected with the noble Sheik’s blog – about two months ago – things started to unloose in me and frozen parts started to thaw. And, funny thing, it has been the ‘normal people’ like you both and all the wonderful breathing folks in my life who have shown me deep compassion. It is partly thru your accepting words that that I am able to start to not be ashamed of my life and of ever being in the fof. Thank you so much!
———–
to my2bits…just stay for a bit more…folks will calm down. Shit happens. I always really like your comments. This is an ocean of communication, there are rough seas, sharks, jagged rocks,…I could go on but… We are the surfers, and can ride over the waves.
#251 My2bits
You oughta stick around. It will change.
Former Student and Bruce, you are very wrong.
I think you have not any Idea about that we are not one…
you can not see which part of you is taking the space.
you can not see that you call “own thought” really is the king of Clubs manipulating you without knowing.
You are so Naive.
But What you could do?
Retarded fool, this name describes you very well,
I supose This name was a brilliant Idea for you.
What is most important?
the knowledge from higher minds or the thoughts of the Naive people, that dont know anything about themselves.
#248 Another Name & #250 Laughing Love:
Regarding the link in my post #246, I just came across that in searching for information for our “In Memoriam” forum.
It struck me as an unabashed, if a bit nostalgic, relating of the person’s excitement at meeting a “school”, the thrill of traveling to “heart of the school”, their perceptions of the teacher and inner circle at the time. I don’t know the identity of the author, nor when it was written. But I was struck by the honest portrayal (at times) of human weakness.
As Laughing Love implies, the promotion of alcohol in the school was probably more powerful than we would care to admit. It was wholeheartedly encouraged. (Of course, we were building a winery!)
I remember my first “Meissen Room” dinner with Robert, Thanksgiving Weekend 1974, I think. (In my journal I called it “dining at the Captain’s Table”.) Up to that point, I had rarely enjoyed alcoholic beverages. I mentioned to Robert that I really didn’t like wine. His response: “maybe non-existence doesn’t enjoy something so powerful.”
Perhaps I took that as a challenge to work on my “feature”. I’ve been connected with the wine industry for most of the past thirty-two years. (Most recently, I spent nine years with Robert Mondavi, one of the world’s foremost promoters of the beverage.)
But I’ve witnessed the impact its abuse has had on me, on my friends from the Fellowship, and on many others. Lately, really just since this blog began, I started to reflect on the role alcohol has played over the years, and decided it was time to curtail its use.
245 Cathie
251 my2bits
257 KA
Any community or philosophy that keeps alive such intense feelings and passions in people months and year after they have left it–cannot be all wrong. The depth of emotion that you all keep expressing, trading, and even fighting with shows that something was stirred so powerfully in all of your hearts that there must be a great deal of good inherent in the FoF experience. And yet, I am puzzled that any spiritual system that requires as much study and maturity doesn’t have at its heart–greater love and tolerance. When 194 Chopsticks entered his rather mean-spirited answer to my open-hearted question requesting the title of a book to read, it took a long time before one of your number called him on it. So, I can only assume you are all too used to people in the community being paranoid and mean-spirited that it does not even raise your eyebrows anymore.
To 251 my2bits I can see the temptation to stop reading and posting when the discussion degenerates to the crude or the personal. And yet, at the same time, how will the discussion ever move to a higher track if all the people with compassion and tolerance “decide to take their ball, go home, and drop out of the game”? Instead, why not persist in the conversation by honoring your own integrity and spirit? It is often the more tiring path, but you honor your own best self and your belief in the inherent good of the world when you keep modeling compassion, tolerance, and love for your fellow man.
I, too, followed the link and read the biography about the “zany mystic”. His description of his first experiences at Oregon House sounded as if they had happened to him only yesterday. Any experience that has touched you all so deeply and passionately must have at its true center so much good. Now, if only more of you would share that “core” maybe the tenor of the blog would change. 198 New Kid and I can both sense that most of you are amazing people.
Peace to you all.
248 is a newly moderated comment.
to russian Simple truth 260
you wrote: “the knowledge from higher minds ”
It’s a trick. What makes another’s person mind higher then yours? I suppose your believes only. Ouspensky was very good promoter of this believe. Now this idea is very popular in so called B-influence books. Only lazy author don’t say something like “I add nothing to this knowledge. It comes directly from angels/God/higher mind/cosmos/aliens/another plane/etc.”
If the ‘mind’ belongs to lower centers (machine) it means minds are mechanically equal. If the ‘mind’ belongs to Higher Centers it means nothing but Presence/Enlightment/Awareness/etc. It deals nothing with ‘knowledge’ – the realm of intellectual center.
And you are free to believe in ‘higher knowledge’ trasmitted from ‘higher mind’ while making blowjob or anal sex. It’s up to you. It is without judgment, you can continue, no problem. I feel compassion to you. The Beast likes sex, yeah….
fa
254/Unoanimo,
What I like about your response in 254 is that it has more of the flavor of coming from real person. You’re there for it, not hiding behind a smokescreen of flowery “wiseacring,” or bullshitting as it’s known by those unburdened with having read Beelzebub’s Tales. I’ll respond to its substance separately, after a spell. Enjoy your day.
[the only word that should be in bold above is "bullshitting." So much for inerrant html coding skills.
Here’s another well-written post by Cadeveo about a recent experience with the Fellowship of Friends…
http://cadeveo.wordpress.com/2007/07/16/the-anticlimactic-prelude-once-more-with-the-fellowship-of-friends/
At the end of his story, I wondered why the center director called him. Doesn’t that strike anyone as a bit odd?
Was she calling him out of compassion for his immortal soul? (no) Or was it simply a follow-up sales call? (yes) Or did she need him to join to validate what she was doing with her life? (yes) And by him not joining, did he prompt her to think more deeply about what she was doing with her life? (yes)
Why have we all been tip-toeing around this issue for so many years? Let’s just be clear about it, completely sincere about what’s happening…
“FOR SALE: Awakening! Everlasting Life! Superiority Over All of Humanity! Get yours while supplies last!”
———–
PEOPLE:
Tell me sincerely… Is that the “principle of payment”?!
Re 263 Observer
Hello:
About 194 Chopsticks’ response to your question, and the belated comments by others, I think that is a limitation of the blog/internet. Communication by computer is incredibly difficult, and so much wit and sarcasm that is tolerable in person to person conversation becomes intensified and unpleasant on the screen. Also, I personally try to ‘never’ respond to the nasties on the blog 1) because it adds fuel to the fire and 2) there are a number of posters that seem to have something like a mild case of Tourette’s Syndrome, and I don’t think there is anything anyone (including them) can do about it. I find the best approach is to treat the blog like a crowded carnival scene, and move away from the people barfing and screaming at each other and try to spend time with those talking about things of interest to me.
Thanks for hanging in there.
David
Observer: “So, I can only assume you are all too used to people in the community being paranoid and mean-spirited that it does not even raise your eyebrows anymore.”
Well actually KA 228 dealt with chopsticks’ “nonsense” pretty quickly as I recall…as soon as anyone could get a word in edgewise between Scott, Greg, Unoanimo and Bruce, that is!
I would have been on the spot quicker but was out back hosing off the mud.
Thanks uno 154, mudbaths are great for drawing out the toxins
my skin is smooth and lovely again
still…a perverse little imp hides in my shadow
pay her
no mind
Uno – 254
“If you see or hear any weird stuff just break a bottle of Renaissance wine on the front and back porches, burn a few Bible concordances, that should take care of it; if not, give me a ring here on the blog, I’ve got some ‘heavyweights’ I can conjure up from the early Byzantine empire;
not to fret, we’ve got yo back girl…”
LOL Uno. Honestly, I’m not worried. The blog has really calmed any fears I had earlier. I was just being a “Mama Bear” protecting her cubs, ya know? It seemed really scary at first, but my initial concerns have softened quite a bit. Everyone I’ve met so far in the area (and on the blog) seem to be genuinely nice people. It’s gonna be fine…..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
KA – 258
“That shame stayed with me for a year, then two then …..then…..then…. Now it has been 22 years since I left and the shame had become like background muzak and I never even noticed it – just didn’t “”””””share””””””” any of my life before moving here and being a ‘good person’. I was born just 17 and 1/2 years ago (hahahahahaha)
I wanted SO MUCH to be a ‘normal person’ (meaning I wanted to **feel** normal and good inside) and I have spent so much energy and time with it. That meant denying my real deep interests in these ideas and most of all, these folks —-this community. When I got connected with the noble Sheik’s blog – about two months ago – things started to unloose in me and frozen parts started to thaw. And, funny thing, it has been the ‘normal people’ like you both and all the wonderful breathing folks in my life who have shown me deep compassion. It is partly thru your accepting words that that I am able to start to not be ashamed of my life and of ever being in the fof. Thank you so much!”
KA – What’s to feel shameful about? Hasn’t everyone taken a path in life that later was shown to be less than what we’d hoped? We’re human. Live and Learn, right?
It’s kinda sad to hear the personal torment some of you have expressed after leaving FoF. What you thought were your core beliefs and trusted friends…….had to have been very very difficult to work through. I can somewhat relate….
At one time, I too, wasted 20+ years in life looking for a different reality through a wild lifestyle & partying. My “experimental” fun party times lasted much longer than they should have — and turned into quite a nightmare. It was tough to overcome and even harder trying to come to grips with the fact that I’d wasted so many years. “I would have gone to graduate school” “I wouldn’t have settled for these crappy jobs” “I would have moved away from this rat-race years ago” etc etc etc….. 99% of my former friends are gone. Oh well. I’d rather have “me” back.
But now, some 12 years later I can say: “Hey it happened. It made me who I am today. When I learned better, I did better. I had a zig-zag journey there, I zigged when I should have zagged” Oh well live & learn and “Teach your children well….” Screw shame & guilt. It’s just another waste of time.
Peace to all of us on our journey.
Kid
Hello Observer and David,
Thank you both for your well seasoned posts. I agree, it takes some gentle forethought to keep a posting from being just a knee jerk response. This medium has so much promise in it for those of us who wish to have an exchange of ideas in as neutral a territory as possible. Maybe those of us who do wish to use it that way, just need to keep on adding our little two cents? My 2bits, don’t give up? It does add up, doesn’t it?
Observer, you are right. The impact of experiences in the Fellowship of Friends do leave an indelible mark on any normal, sane person who enters ready and willin’. There is and has been so much beauty, so much presence, so much effort, so much transformation yet so much hypocrisy as to break a normal person’s heart. And we are normal people, many with trembling hearts, sad at what is occurring, yet grateful for finally getting all the unpleasant garbage out and exposed to the air. We have been both the turtle slowly making it’s way, without looking too far up, down or sideways and also the roadrunner running fine and fast so long as we don’t look down.
In this time period many of us are simply trying to understand, in a personal sense, in a spiritual sense, and in a pathological sense both who we are, who Robert Burton may be and what our “School” is. Thanks Observer for your gentle prodding and all those posters out there who offer a thoughtful post.
Cheers,
Bass
Tim: The debt impulse to thank you is building so now I post. Thanks for the zeitgeist link, that was very thought-provoking. I passed it on… Thanks for the ZanyMystic post, so many ways I related to that story, even though many of the life experiences were unknowable for me. It was enhanced by feeling pretty sure who the author is (the big cars gave it away). And thirdly, thank you for your honesty and courage in telling the story of your own involvement with alcohol. I like your choices.
To unoanimo, KA, Yesri baba, Observer and Bass Ackwards,
Thanks for your words of encouragement and support. I’ll try to re-focus and give a bit more.
Cathie said: chopsticks, you advise Observer: “Also as a beginner ask more talk less listen more.”
What an arrogant, cultish attitude.
———————————————————————————————-
I am sorry if I offended you ‘Observer’, Cathie and KA and other libs out there.
Observer – I take it back please say, listen and ask as much as you like.
Ames – did Observer contact you yet?
I’m putting an excerpt from Zanymystic’s description of his life in the Fellowship of Friends, taken from his website. It is taken out of context; visit the link Tim Campion gave for the whole story, which I personally find rather remarkable.
http://zanymystic.tripod.com/id11.html
—Ames
______________________________________________
Life at “the Ranch” was a constant wonderland. One might go from pulling weeds to peeling carrots, to dressing in suit and tie to dine in the most magnificent room in California, the “Meissen Room”. Of course, that was over 27 years ago, and I suspect these descriptions are long outdated. Robert was truly “King” of this Empire, and everyone emulated his “self-effacing, humble walk”.
Tall, broad shouldered, he carried himself as if he was but a lowly servant, slightly hunched down with a peasant’s shuffle. Of course, he wore silk suits and magnificent rings, not unlike Liberace, but a tad more elegant and “discreet” about his obvious penchant for the Divine Feminine. His Queen was safely tucked away inside, for private consumption only. With student donations pouring in, and “special donations” ranging from $400.00 and up, the man raked it in. By now, he must be a billionaire several times over.
(snip)
At this time, I traveled back and forth to “the ranch”. One occasion, I got a ride with a tall, slender, good–looking male, an architect. We stopped by his apartment before the final leg of the journey, and he made a pass at me. I wasn’t really attracted, and it had been years since I’d had sex, so frankly I didn’t know what to do. Besides, my own sexuality remained a mystery to all but me.
A day later, I was told “the Teacher wants to see you at the Lincoln Lodge”. Somewhat excited, yet apprehensive, I sat next to him in an overstuffed chair. He told me that my architect friend had asked if it was okay to have sex with another male and had spilled his guts. Bad idea. We were both given “the task” of not ever having sex with other males. Robert said, with a sweeping gesture in the air, “Can’t you see… there’s so much more…” and that was that. You didn’t argue with the Teacher. Period. Depressed, I felt that the school was be-coming “too restrictive”. Slowly, like a society that is being modified and controlled, it goes largely unnoticed – until it’s too late. I felt the school was turning into, or already was, a cult. I couldn’t see why being homosexual should limit my spiritual advancement. Not only that, I was one horny male, after years of celibacy. I told Randolph that I was going to leave. He hated to see me go, but understood completely. We embraced and said goodbye. It seemed “logical” to make my escape to San Francisco, a doomed failure and raging alcoholic.
I ended up living in the Haight Ashbury with a buffed Queen who was rarely home, living the “perfect life” of a fag: the gym, polished copper pots, and two alcoholic roommates. The bars nearby became my new home. Dealing with leaving a school, believing one is basically doomed, is a dark shadow from which to emerge. Many other students either left at that time, or were asked to leave, especially if they “knew too much”. My good friends, Stella and Harold, who had opened a center in Amsterdam, were asked to leave, having disobeyed the “no smoking” rule. Several years later I got in touch with Stella, and the truth came out. Robert had been blackmailing the straight male students, and their underage boys, into having sex with him. They were told point blank if they didn’t comply, they’d be out of the school. This had been going on from the beginning. Robert’s “inner circle” had nothing to do with level of consciousness. It had to do with who could do his bidding and keep their mouths shut. Those were the ones who ended up in “special positions” either traveling with him, sitting next to him at enormous meetings, or taking on “executive duties”. One fellow was used as his “boy toy”, which left indelible scars. He worked through it to eventually become a well–known artist. Those at the top seemed a bunch of arrogant scoundrels. One of the men who sat in front was a Doctor, who I bumped into at the San Francisco baths one night. He cringed and left upon seeing me. I was delighted to have left the school on my own terms, having taken what I needed. “Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!” says Auntie Mame.
Stella, in the meantime, began a support group assisting those who left or were asked to leave. Many folks were suicidal. I joined the group, and more sordid details of Robert’s sexual machinations were revealed, including a class action lawsuit that ended up settling “out of court”.
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Note for less–experienced speakers of English. “Queen” and “fag” are two common slang words for ‘homosexual’ here in the U.S.A.
By the way, Zanymystic has just joined the Greater Fellowship.
Hello Observer ~
You wrote ~ (263)
“So, I can only assume you are all too used to people in the community being paranoid and mean-spirited that it does not even raise your eyebrows anymore.”
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Actually, to be very honest (my honest), the only ‘thing’ that raised one, of the nearly 800 eyebrow-hairs that compose the eyebrow, is your carefully crafted language; I must say ‘Observer’ I cannot help but compare the ‘language’ you use and say the one ‘New Kid in Town’ pencils out…
Now, I know you’re gonna say, Hey Uno, that’s not cool, comparing two people, etc. and see, that’s not it, really…
There’s something going on with your writing, maybe your not American, (British?) who knows; I do understand though that several people in the blog picked up on it, at least intuitively…
The only time I’ve ever heard people talking the same ‘meter’ (lot’s of “and yet” and “rather”, that you write here on the blog in through tape recordings of Fellowship of Friends meeting that used to be held at their Town Hall;
particularly those, cool as a pair of new leather gloves in the stocking hung with care, the night before Christmas, types like Peter I., and Robert T. (only in meeting settings that is, when the ‘good student above the good student’ thing is going on.)
Truly, ‘Observer’ no one ‘really’ talks like that in the FoF; particularly after a few bottles of ‘tannin from hell’ RVW Cabernet…
If I read any body’s ‘free flow postings’ there’s a kind of lawn chair, Lipton ice tea kinda linguistic; whereas yours comes to me (and I am really speaking personal here) as someone in the Fellowship whose pretending to be what they often term as a ‘Life Person’ or a regular guy.
Maybe I am nuts or possibly getting close to some aliment similar to Mohammad Ali’s…
I just wished to let you know that how your posts were initially treated seemed ‘normal’ due to the ‘aura’ your language semantics radiate, at least to me, there’s just something a bit askew and people feel it, whether it’s full blown cosmic consciousness connected or not, there’s something ‘in there’, the way you simply do not make any mistakes, carefully walking backwards whisk brooming your tracks… I know a little about this style of writing you see…
I use it when writing to certain governmental figures; they dislike it, I am sure, but they also know that it gets the job done when push comes to shove and they also understand that I am using it ‘intentionally’ to demonstrate an issue in that ‘formatory world’ of red tape and $44,000 dollar toilet seats.
Please do not take this too personal, I went back and reread your posts and curiously enough the name ‘Howard Carter’ came to mind… Is that you Howey?
It really does not matter; I just want you to know that this letter is to you and yes, I risk allot of “knee jerk” reactions; yet, well, that’s ‘blog-law’… I consider you my friend and I would hope that you would tell me similar things as I have shared with you today, as I would in person too, if I seemed to be playing ’sincere’ all the while wearing something on my head that I ’seemed’ to not be acknowledging that’s there, like a raccoon hat that still has the ‘raccoon’ in it.
________________
Veronique, my new friend; reading your last post was truly for me ‘a shocker’, no words to describe the awe….
Though I must say, yet, welp… here we are; I truly thought you meant what you said last night with the apology thing and all, yet, today, you’ve basically echoed what you apologized for…
It’s truly odd that you could write this to me ~
“You’re there for it, not hiding behind a smokescreen of flowery “wiseacring,” or bullshitting as it’s known by those unburdened with having read Beelzebub’s Tales.”
______________________
Demonstrating the very, no so “assuming” you mistakingly chastised me for…
Reading “Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson” changed my life forever, and I do mean forever; I drank of Gurdjieff’s love, fathomless and so profound that only chills down the spine and goosebumps really do it justice…
For me the reading of that book was a burden of the heart, not the mind, it changed me, it placed certain forces within me that no school on this Earth has yet to perform (for me) ;
I have love embedded in what I write (at least that’s what I feel) and I am here for it all and you… I truly would love to meet you some day, though sense it’s best for us to take a sabbatical from this weird little game you’re playing with me…
Be well my friend; I look forward to meeting you some day.
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l.t.y.a.
262
Tim, I applaud you on your decision to curtail alcohol. I was quite aware of the alcoholism problem in the FOF and became a teetotaler many years before I left. I think it was partly just my way to rebel against to form because I wasn’t anywhere close to being an alcoholic myself. I recently won 3 bottles of a local(Nevada County) wine and a wine tasting party for up to 20 people in a raffle. Now I have to decide whether to watch my friends enjoy the wine or to loosen up and join in. Anyone want an invitation?
My2bits (252)
Referring to some recent ‘negative’ posts, you wrote:
“I had hoped here to find intelligent and positive guidance for my personal process of leaving the school.”
I agree with you. I would like to see more stuff on here that would help those who are currently in the FOF to leave, or help those who have already left to deal with their experiences and get their lives back together.
After I left, it took awhile to ‘reclaim’ certain things and ‘de-program’ myself. For example, in the Fellowship you’re programmed to believe all this stuff about the ‘44 conscious beings’ working with ‘our school’, etc. Consequently, you tend to associate Bach, Shakespeare, Walt Whitman, etc. with the FOF. It can be difficult to enjoy their work again because it seems sort of tainted because of associations with the Fellowship. Can anyone else relate to this?
We were also programmed in regard to a number of other things such as dining, clothes, smoking, sex, drugs, what type of art is good, etc.
So here is my de-programming prescription, for those of you who have recently left: Be as ‘un-Fellowship-like’ as possible, at least for awhile.
Forget fine dining and dressing up in ties and dresses and all that. Get into your most comfortable clothes, perhaps shorts and T-shirt (or just skip the shirt). Get some kind of food that the FOF would despise, preferably something messy and ugly looking on the plate, but deep-down satisfying – maybe some ribs, corn on the cob, collards, etc. Park yourself in front of the TV while you eat. Watch something with no spiritually redeeming value whatsoever. Maybe something funny so you can work AGAINST the ‘wit exercise’. Forget the European dining. Eat it with your hands, if possible. Get your face into it. Go for it – be a slob for once. Drink a beer with your meal – directly out of the can or bottle. Stare at the TV without ‘being present to your impressions’ or worrying about your alchemy or any of that. After dinner have a cigarette if you want. Smoke some dope if you’ve got it. Pick out some good music – nothing classical or even ‘new agey’ or ’spiritual’. Put on something rockin’ and sexy that you don’t have to strain your brain on. Crank it up (ok, use headphones if you have to). Lie there and get into the music, contrasting the feelings of instictive satisfaction that you are experiencing with the soul-paralyzing conformity that you experienced in the FOF.
Indulge every kind of ‘instinctive center’ desire. If you’re so inclined and have the opportunity, have casual sex – especially if you were one of those poor bastards who were ‘working with’ the sex exercise and probably missed many amazing experiences of pleasure and intimacy during the prime of your life. Send a big conscious ‘FUCK YOU’ to Robert for that one. That’s right, express a little negativity. Let your Instictive Center be your guide until you have exorcised all those FOF demons.
Then when you’ve satisfied all that, you can put on some Bach and read a little Whitman or Goethe without the specter of Robert hovering over you.
I’m not suggesting that you abandon your spiritual pursuits – far from it. Just take a break from it for awhile to clear your head and then return to it in whatever way is real and true for you. Don’t be so gullible next time. Remember what Gurdjieff said about our suggestability. Hopefully all us on this blog who have left the FOF at least learned that lesson.
Hope this helps. Best wishes to all.
Hello Zanymystic ~
You wrote ~ (275)
“Of course, that was over 27 years ago, and I suspect these descriptions are long outdated.”
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Ah, I think you mean “one day ago”…
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Hope to see your being here on the blog.
l.t.y.a.
265 is a newly moderated comment.
Post 280 David B.
Hahaha. Great practical advice that many here should follow.
unoanimo,
Drop me a line if you would like at veronicapoe@gmail.com. Sincerely I don’t want to offend you and I probably would do better with private communications. Sometimes our human condition is a comedy of misperceiving the other’s intentions and way of being. I don’ t doubt that this is happening between us. Maybe it can be remedied privately.
David B. (280): Amen.
Ha, some of your suggestions remind me of my days within the fof.
Which could be one reason I languished in the outer circle. Of course, other reasons might be the Lower Self, the King of Clubs, lack of valuation, poor householder, believing the ‘I’s, negative attitude, lack of refinement, lack of effort, using the wrong triad, wrong thinking, lack of being, lack of understanding, and basically just wrong everything. Bad, wrong, negative, weak, and so on.
And they say Catholicism erodes your self-esteem.
“I WANT TO FEEL GOOD.”
Someone explain to me what’s wrong with that sentence — how it is not healthy, spiritual, natural, and how it doesn’t bring us closer to God, and closer to ourselves. I’m listening.
I need help! Who in the hell is Ayn Rand? Some one told me to read “FountainHead” and I would know what he was talking about.
I went to Wikipedia for Ayn Rand and immediately became overwhelmed.
This is the “the fellowship of friends – a cult for INTELLECTUALS blog. So, intellectual friends tell me.
I have never heard of Ayn Rand that I can remember. But, some of the stuff I read about her didnt “hit” me right.
OBJECTIVISM isnt that an Ouspensky word? “Man’s EGO is the fountainhead of human progress”. EGO is supreme, individualism, selfishness are virtues.
The fellow that told me to read Ayn Rand’s Fountainhead said that at the end of the day (bottomline) self-interest rules.
And, that nobody should use the government as a crutch.
The city’s infrastructure needs funds and therefore taxes will of necessity go up. If you cant pay the taxes as they rise then move or educate yourself to a level that employment opportunities arise. What if you are disable or have a family member diabled. Go to a homeless shelter and compare your life with their’s and if it’s better consider yourself fortunate.
Is that basic for OBJECTIVISM? Does anybody know? And, are the Ayn Rand believers a cult? Cult was mentioned on wikipedia.
Ayn Rand would fit easily into this blog as an intellectual, but that aint me.
Unoanimo I suspect the thing got winged and ran off to collect its blood.
280 David B.
You followin me around? lol
Great advice, David, hope people take it and follow through. I know I certainly did!
Best…
JoelF
286
Ayn Rand’s “objectivisim” is her particular use of the word. Others have used it differently. There are or were attractive aspects of her philosophy, such as the realization that in such entities as government and/or large institutions, corporations etc. the “ideal” is usually based on mediocrity. Anything above that is usually shuffled around into quasi-obscurity so as not to reveal the mediocrity of larger whole. She originally advocated the “individual” and her heroic characters are lone, brilliant outlaws on the fringe of society who are clearly way ahead of others intellectually, in talent and with conscience, yet not to sacrifice the individual for the whole- as she saw that as eminently destructive.
Unfortunately, this philosophy was degraded both in her lifetime, and further today until it’s basically a philosophy of greed and me,me,me, without the original redeeming features. It was sort of an non-developed theory that people today contend is a finished theory, and it’s used to defend greed and the us/they society. It has become it’s original theory’s opposite.
The hero of The Fountainhead was an architect who was modeled after Frank Lloyd Wright who, as I mentioned in a recent post, had a connection to Gurdieff and also had his own little cult. I just started the book about it so can’t tell you much more about it right now.
Observer #263 you wrote:
“Any community or philosophy that keeps alive such intense feelings and passions in people months and year after they have left it–cannot be all wrong. The depth of emotion that you all keep expressing, trading, and even fighting with shows that something was stirred so powerfully in all of your hearts that there must be a great deal of good inherent in the FoF experience.”
“Any experience that has touched you all so deeply and passionately must have at its true center so much good.”
——————
OK, I get it.
Hidden agenda not so hidden any more.
Well, in answer to your plea for testimonials as to the inherent good of the FOF “at its true center”…um, no, I don’t think so.
At its center, the FOF is rotten. The true good that many of us found and created during our time together came from inside ourselves, our own basic goodness, sincerity and love.
That we were gullible and naive, arrogant and cultish, fooled and abused by a corrupt leader, hypnotized by a special language and a false sense of being “chosen,” is the sad truth for many of us as well.
Nice try though.
Hey Arthur,
my suggestion: put “The Fountainhead” down, and take up “Atlas Shrugged” instead. All the ideas Ayn Rand sketched out in the former were much better developed in the latter.
I spend some time trying to get at the basics of her philosophy of Objectivism (including reading “Atlas Shrugged” ten times, to the consternation of my wife), and in the end decided that it would have been fun—and profitable—if she had met up with Gurdjieff (she would have been on much more equal terms than almost any of his students). She seemed to take a brutal self–assessment and personal honesty as far as she could, which was quite far. If she had had the opportunity to ‘stand on the shoulders of giants’ preceding her, she could have been great, but she took the road of inventing everything from scratch out of a sense of integrity
That’s my take!
Regards,
Ames
#252 my2bits
I had hoped here to find intelligent and positive guidance for my personal process of leaving the school
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When I first seriously considered leaving the school I did not have access to lots of old friends to consult with. I went to a psychic fair one day and connected with a sympathetic psychic who had some personal cult experiences of her own. She really helped me to see my situation more objectively and helped me to deprogram my thinking. I also had some reiki sessions that helped me move some of the stuck energy out. I don’t think psychics and reiki are for everyone, but I do think it is important to get outside help if you need it–whatever kind you are comfortable with. Be kind to yourself. I now do a litte reiki (and reflexology) myself and offer it freely to anyone who wants it– no charge.
cmsabin@infostations.net
Cathie, ‘Observer’ post 263
Seems to me like Observer is just Peter Ingle or someone similar up to his old manipulative tricks again. Remember the phony dialogue between the insidious ‘A friend’ and ‘John’ from way back at the Blogs early days ?
What is disturbing is the lenths people defending the FOF go to constructing this type of longwinded deception. And they think it will fool people ! I got the familiar ’smell’ coming from ‘Observer’ straight away.
On another note. Anyone else find it funny that as soon as Howard Carters cover was blown as N.Spaulding,Nick himself suddenly appears with a ‘message’ to HC to not to post any more and then they all dissapear.HA !
#279 Xena:
Thanks. That’s funny about the raffle prize, but it does sound like a nice opportunity to invite the friends over. Instead of 20, you could invite 40 and share! (And advise them it’s a TASTING; you know, look, swirl, sniff, taste and SPIT. (Can be lots of fun, but not on white carpets.)
Regarding the many posts on the role of alcohol within the fof.
It was the first of three prospective student`s meetings. Dianne was joining before we could utter one word so I identified with her. This was the very attitude that I had come with, maybe six months before. I did understand that these guys might all be nuts, but I was definitely going for it no matter what. So I resonated with her. The fact that I remember her name nearly twenty years later attests to that.
The story was the same for the second and third installments.
All was rosy. We then brought out the coffee and cookies all intentionally laid out around a beautiful postcard of Renaissance. Endless rows of grapevines crowned with a distant bunkerlike winery. Out popped her first question.
^What`s that?^ I answered, the winery.
She was out the door so fast she left the smell of rubber on the hallway carpet. Well, that is a slight exageration. She did explain on her way out that her husband had been severely damaged by alcohol and she couldn`t possibly get involved with an organization which not only condoned the use of alcohol but encouraged it.
Something to think about, All.
Arthur ~
You wrote ~
“Unoanimo I suspect the thing got winged a