The Fellowship of Friends Discussion, part 2(5)
November 11, 2007 by Pavel
Here we go again. Enjoy the discussion and stay civil.
For previous parts click on home and scroll down.
Posted in Cults, Esotericism, Fellowship of Friends, Fourth Way, Gurus, Spirituality | 612 Comments
Hey Sheik, you’re slipping. You didn’t list my moderated post on the last page and one of the posts you did list I don’t think was moderated because I had already read it.
I decided to stay with the animal avatar theme that seems to be happening. The photo is of a one year old elephant. My brother took the picture on a recent trip to Africa. I had to change my name to xeeena because wordpress already has a xena and a xeena and a xina.
just checking to see if my avatar works
Fat Boy – Your question
“if you were forced to be with Robert for one hour alone; let say in a broken down elevator for sake of discussion. What questions would you ask, and how do you think he would respond to you?”
I think the response might be a very ticked off, superior and arrogant silence in each case. I would also be curious to see whether he could go a whole hour without trying to get into my zipper. Here are some questions I would dearly like to ask.
#1 Robert, why do you need to suck so much cock every single day of your life, I’m told by someone close to you that you tried to gobble 100 people on Valentine’s day? isn’t this just a tad obsessive? What has this behavior got to do with consciousness?
#2 Robert, how do you explain the fact that none of your predictions came true, not one. Do you still see yourself as a prophet?
#3 Why did you tell such a big “porkie pie” about your crystallization? C’mon, there wasn’t really any smoke or lightning or earthquaking was there ? What was the pressure you felt that resulted in such a gross and obvious distortion?
#4 It seems that your unbridled Greed and Lust have grown in expression since your so-called crystallization. Has it occurred to you that you might be incorrectly crystallized?
#4 You appear to perfectly fit the profile of a malignant narcissist, has anyone ever explained this to you? Can you comment on the fact that your actions as a man number 7.8
seem totally at odds with liberation, compassion and enlightenment. Do you know of any other awakened beings
who might be mistaken for sociopaths?
#5 Why do you think the Fellowship is collapsing around your ears, have you made any connections to this and your current teaching or the spate of revelations about your private life?
#6 Many of your students are experiencing powerful awakening experiences and then leaving your organization. Are you able to acknowledge this as fact or must you stick to the line that they are mentally unbalanced or merely troublemakers ?
#7 What do you have to say to the many people now coming forward with graphic first hand accounts of abuse which they claim you inflicted upon them. How do you justify this or explain it away?
#8 What are you going to do and where are you going to go once the money dries up? Have you made any plans?
#9 Have you ever read “I am That” by Nisargadatta Maharaj?
Can I send you a copy, will you promise to read it? I think it will help you understand in part why you are now quite widely regarded as a self serving fraud who never awakened.
#2 Leon:
Great questions and ones that we would all love to have him answer truthfully. But I don’t think he would be able to answer truthfully because he is so pitifully out of touch with the truth himself.
In fact, I asked some of these questions (in a very respectful way) some years ago and the answers (more like responses than answers) were really just vague, evasive, non sequitors or ridiculous claims and unverifiable statements having nothing to do with the question. I have also noticed that when he gets too close to an uncomfortable truth he assumes the posture of the longsuffering, misunderstood martyr.
1 xeeena
Love your elephant! Very cool!
JoelF
ak0aka0ka AKA KA:
I am no longer on the Greater Fellowship. I have no desire to be on any forum where I am open to further sadistic abuse. (Not from you, obviously.) If you post an email address I will respond to you personally.
I know the attacks have become a non-issue here, but I have other reasons for not posting for a while. Thanks everyone for your kind posts.
The question was not for you, Leonhardon Da Mincey. Bruce already answered it. You misinterpreted the question anyway. Not that your questions are not valid.
Fat Boy, Why don’t you try to corner Robert and ask him some pertinent questions and see what happens? What questions would you like to ask?
Leonhardon– I like your questions. I bet Robert has given a lot of thought to number 8.
Joel– Glad you like my elephant. If you (or anyone else) wants to see the full size version you can send me an email. cmsabin@infostations.net.
496 Fat Boy: “what type of conversation would take place lets say if you were forced to be with Robert for one hour alone; let say in a broken down elevator for sake of discussion?”
Lacking Leonhardon’s courage, I would talk quietly to him about non-controversial subjects to keep him calm, and hope that his medication would not wear off before help arrived.
Fat Boy 6
This is an open forum. When you post here anyone can respond. It’s not like a fellowship meeting where you have to raise your hand and wait to be called on.
I got interrupted and you got to it before me xena. Here is mine:
This is a forum, Fat Boy. Anybody can answer a proposed question, or comment on the answers. That’s one thing that is so nice about a forum – anybody can get a word in edgewise.
My additional questions might go along the lines of:
1) Why do you emphasize state so much over level of being? If state is so important, why not just use drugs. Or, since it seems that perhaps you do use drugs, why then bother with “School”?
2) How are your admonishments to your students regarding losing C influence, getting to the “Celestial City of Paradise”. etc., different from fundamentalist religious “feminine dominance”?
Sure there are more – gotta go….
I agree xeeena 9 and wingspread 10 it is an open forum, but asked Bruce because I thought he would be sincere and he was. The question that 2, 8, and 10 responded to was not my question.
Do you think that 2, 8, and 10 were not sincere? I know I was very sincere, and I wish I had asked those very questions before leaving.
Fat Boy– Responces 2,8, and 10 sound like answers to your question to me. How do you feel you were misinterpreted?
Unoanimo.
Did you ever read any Virginia Woolf?
and have you ever considered writing a book?
No kidding.
J x
ps the only novel by v w i read was the waves.
Its real stream of consciousness stuff.
“How fortunate for leaders that the masses do not think!”
Certainly true in Robert Burtons case and Bush’s but it was actually said by Hitler.
j x
Innernaut ~ you wrote ~
“Thanks guys, but I think I’ll take my leave nonetheless. It’s not a question of turning the other cheek. I’m just not equipped to absorb that level of sheer hatred.
That I experienced these attacks in what is supposed to be a spiritually oriented forum is an irony that I’m going to be puzzling about for some time.
Maybe someday I’ll feel differently about posting again. But for now, so long.”
_________________________________________________
Hello Innernaut;
Welcome back; often what we expect to be given to ourselves is greater than that which we can give to the other we’re expecting it from, not to mention the ratio so often taken for granted, i.e., that which we give ourselves within solitude; I mean, the ratio we REALLY give ourselves. That there are people who ‘volunteer’ to leave after another has been ‘non-voluntarily-exiled’ is indeed puzzling to me, one wonders if there’s anything in between the Protagonists and Antagonists within the interior first reactions of blog brothers and sisters; yet, psychic exhaustion is certainly something that can occur, hence, there’s a level beyond a nervous breakdown, I’ve verified it…
So, unless you’re heart is absolutely incapacitated, it would be great to simply see one of your feathers floating in here once in awhile, not the kind of feather that people traditionally find and hang on their rear view mirrors, rather, one of those feathers that’s underneath the wings, the more important ones, the tiny insulation kind that only reveal themselves when having had a fly-by-collision with an old hawk and dexterously curve-balled-bodied it into the horizon, an old hawk whose simply trying to keeps its blood flowing so as to not wake the next morning to find itself too cold to get up and stand above the sunrise for awhile, till high noon readjusts it’s picture of itself. We all need balance and fortunately for us we never get it when we ‘think’ we need it, it gets us, whether we like it or not.
Yet #2 ~ There’s a limit to causing/delivering ’shocks’ to others that have no real reason to be transformed for their sake and aim of having been delivered, particularly when the one shocking is simply shocking oneself for no better reason than sensation and argument, contrast and distance.
Old Hawks and Old Egrets have a ruthless heritage of drama and literary reincarnated repetition; yet, within all birds resides a shape that they all can agree on, yet, too soon forget to return ‘within’ in order to contemplate their common place of origin, that shape that simply says ‘egg’, ‘fragile’, ‘keep warm’, ‘touch with curiosity, do not squeeze with arm wrestling tenacity’, ‘nest’, ‘possibility’, ‘innocence’, and ‘I am a planet on a planet’.
Take care of yourself; you’re the only one you’ll certainly be with for a very long time, so, with all your heart, get used to loosing a few ’small’ feathers; and if you loose a big feather, you can always fly to the automotive junk yard and easily have your pick of hundreds hanging on rear view mirrors… After all, how would you look into a front view mirror?
_____________________
Love to you all.
Jack,
Well, I have written a book, curiously enough, I was just talking about its ‘future’ last night while driving in the rain with cell phone illegally pressed up against left ear while right hand was rigidly obeying keeping front wheel drive steady.
And, no, I’ve never eaten wolf in Virginia, but, could imagine myself looking forwards to it, especially if it’s smoked, like their famous smoked hams are.
:.)
16 unoanimo
Innernaut left BEFORE the “exile”, as did I. The difference a day makes.
Please Sheik, I tried various times to send this, hopefully it won’t appear various times, it is long enough as it is. I do have a different mail but it hadn’t presented difficulties.
I wish I could agree with you L. Susy that “students are still evolving in the Fellowship of Friends.” If I thought students were evolving positively in any way still in the Fellowship of Friends I would not have written one word on this blog and would have chosen to respect their option. If they were evolving even slightly, the Fellowship of Friends would not be a harmful place and there would be no place for the blog. I still fight because I am convinced everyone in the Fellowship of Friends is involuting rather than evolving at a much faster speed than people in regular societies. I use work language to try to communicate on the same terms that we were indoctrinated to accept and because I find nothing wrong with the language but in how it was misconstrued by the Fellowship of Friends.
How can a human being today be evolving when he has had to accept to live under the Fellowship of Friend’s conditions that require:
1. That men belittle women.
2. That women belittle themselves.
3. That sexual abuse of young men be legitimate.
4. That one man who is a sexual abuser have the only right to decide about everything that happens within the community of Isis and the extended Fellowship of Friends in other countries and centers.
5. That only a very few chosen people can express themselves and only in a way that supports the sexual abuser.
6. That nationalistic and classicist values separate individuals from each other.
7. That a new form of separation between people has been added besides the class and nationalistic ones, a form of separation due to spiritual differences in being. So Man number 4,5,6,7, and 8 increasingly separate from men 1,2 and 3 instead of expanding a consciousness that harmonizes the differences.
8. That students accept to listen to Robert and his assistants and not speak. At what point of indoctrination does a man accept to no longer speak his word?
9. That students accept to separate themselves into pieces in which their first line of work has nothing to do with their second or third line?
10. That students sacrifice themselves for the Fellowship of Friends without this transforming into any great cultural, spiritual achievement but the acceptance of a very expensive brothel?
Where is the balance that can drive towards evolution of the individual and the community and if there is no evolution then where is it actually leading but the perverse exploitation of the many, physically, economically and spiritually for the benefit of Robert Burton and the few privileged ones in the inner circle?
How on earth can people evolve if instead of acquiring unity they divide into pieces?
One of the problems with us is that the fact that people are not actually being physically murdered at Isis (Renaissance) and not only are not being murdered but are being given little candies to chew on while the establishment empties their outer and inner pockets, makes us think that they are actually all right. I’m not talking about you little Susy personally, I’m talking about that in all of us and particularly in still students who sold their integrity for a poisoned apple.
I am trying to understand this as I write so please bare with my lack of clarity.
In the first line it is good to look at both the willingness from essence to love and sacrifice one’s self for the Arc, the Fellowship of Friends, humanity as it was presented at some point. In false personality much determined by our programming, the impulse to participate takes the form of the ambition to become THE CONSCIOUS BEING without the slightest regard for anyone else in the community. You and Robert Burton is the only thing that matters to these students. I and the Teacher and nobody else counts. Each man to himself. An ambition in false personality that allows for the belittling of others as long as you are backed by Robert Burton’s myth.
Mature participation with discrimination proper of true personality, never developed in the Fellowship of Friends. There can be no maturity in a community that recognizes the divine in only one of its participants and not in the whole of life. This is the main difference between a School and a cult.
Wishing to be a part of a community and giving one’s self to its service embraces all the good will and beauty within essence. The distortion that is brought in false personality is determined in today’s society and the Fellowship of Friends by the predominance of instinctive life over spiritual life. When instinctive life rules, hierarchical social structures that demand the sacrifice of the many over the privilege of a few, develop. When spiritual principles rule, instinctive necessities are consistently met by the sacrifice of the higher in power. Greed is the impulse behind the first and compassion, the principle behind the second.
Who has ever addressed Roberts greed? Girard’s greed? The greed in any one of the people inside the Fellowship of Friends who thinks they have more rights to anything than anybody else?
When participation in the community is determined by one being at the top of the hierarchy, only societies in which instinctive life predominates, can develop. Not an evolving culture. Culture, that is, the spiritual life of a community, cannot come from hierarchical instinctive communities. They copy other cultures but do not create new spiritual life. Only money and unnecessary suffering is produced. Neither capitalist nor communist societies developed culture, let alone, fascist ones, all of which were determined by hierarchical forms of government with no regard for the individuals within.
The Fellowship of Friends makes money, not being. On the contrary, it diminishes the being that students initially arrived with into lesser beings who accept to become second and third class citizens. The fact that men are over valued in relation to women does not mean they are not undervalued in relation to Robert Burton who can use and abuse them at his will and if they deny to be used sexually they must accept to be used economically.
What in us compelled us to accept the conditions of the Fellowship of Friends is still worth exploring. Personally I was ready to offer the best of my life to what I thought was a Conscious School so I was willing to offer an enormous amount of self sacrifice in order to help its aims. The humanitarian aims, for I did not join a Conscious School for anything but to become more human. If the divine approached me at the end of that road, welcome the divine, but I never imagined the divine could come without the human first nor did it seem that urgent while I was still alive. Human joy and love would have been more than enough to make me believe that Robert was a conscious being.
It took too long to realize that the Fellowship of Friends sold the divine above and at the cost of the human within its participants. Sold it, at the price of our own humanity in accepting both our selves and others to be used and abused by one being in justification of his spiritual status. I cannot question Girard Haven enough for having indoctrinated students to accept these conditions unquestioned.
Whenever any one presented a claim it was rebuked by him with the idea that the person did not have the being to present such a claim to Robert Burton, a conscious being man number seven or eight. The battle was lost before it even started when these conditions were the preconceived ideas that held us in place. The claim did not matter because the only claim that mattered was the one that was not addressed, the “being”. Robert Burton is the conscious being and the rest of students are the unconscious beings. Everything else is justified by that simple acceptance.
Once that is clear between you and whoever in the inner circle you are dealing with, the issue does not matter. They represent Robert Burton’s will and therefor have a credit card to abuse your humanity wherever it appears. You can participate as long as you are willing to bend and be fucked physically, economically and sexually or emotionally and intellectually.
As long as people allow their instinctive survival in a community to determine who they allow to participate, they have no objective recognition of the human being in front of them. As long as people allow their instinctive center to determine the emotionality with which they embrace another human being, they are determined by the position in the hierarchy that they hold in a community and not by the objective human recognition of the person before them. The conditioning of the instinctive center is what determines the formatory apparatus and life is interpreted through your role in the hierarchy of the particular community. As long as you are determined by your role, you cannot see people objectively. This is how the hierarchical structure of the community is consistently perpetuated by each individual. This is the “illusion” and the lack of objective love in relationships.
Each individuals imaginary picture is determined by his family, nation and experiences. The consciousness that a School is meant to provide is to go beyond those determinations into the simply human so that love is not determined by class or cast but by objective principles.
The Fellowship of Friends cannot develop objective knowledge under the conditions that it functions because it functions under purely instinctive conditioning in which separations are deepened rather than recognized. The fact that Robert Burton, Girard Haven and so many students, particularly at Isis totally avoid to connect to people in a simple human interaction and can only do so through their practiced role, shows the extent to which they have become subject to their instinctive conditioning. The fact that neither one has a husband or a wife, but use partners sexually without being able to extend their embrace into a legitimate relationship within the community, shows the extent of their dysfunctional. The “sociopathic” behavior that we’ve mentioned is essentially instinctive behavior without human consideration. The fact that neither one of them has friends but associates with whom they share their role, is also revealing and the fact that they both consider the six billion dead people outside of the Fellowship a decadent worthless humanity is even more revealing of what values are being transmitted by the Fellowship of Friends.
The “instinctiveness” in the Fellowship of Friends stands out when it becomes so obvious that what is being protected is a status quo in which unlimited power can be exercised by Robert Burton so that the many ticks that have connected to his blood can continue to live on it.
What “evolution” can occur in these terms?
The decadence of hierarchical structures that determine the life of the individual in all modern societies, requires that the individual structures the community, based not in the respect of authority but in the respect of principles. All men in the community should be subject to the principles, not to the authority. This bending of principles to defend the authority is the most damaging aspect of the Fellowship of Friends because it breaks the soul of its participants. The integrity.
When the economy determines the life of the community in regular societies and sexuality in a cult, you cannot go much lower in recognizing the instinctive center as the commander in chief. It is also why modern industries make money but not culture and humanity is involuting rather than evolving but even modern industries are less harmful than cults like the Fellowship of Friends. In industries people know they are giving up their work but in fraudulent Schools, students are giving up their being, their will, which makes them a hell of a lot more vulnerable than regular workers. It is not just a coincidence that people have been willing to kill or die en masse in various cults. It shows the degree of damage to which people are at some point unable to return from, once they have given their will up to an authority that conditions the quality of their life in so many different aspects; from their speech to who they marry and what they work in. All aspects of life in fact.
It is probably no coincidence that as far as we know, the American culture has produced more cults than Schools. Cults in which the structure is no different to the capitalist structure of society but dedicated to the exploitation of the spiritual being of its participants, in addition to the economic exploitation.
The fact that there is still not enough consciousness to question the way cults can function on a national scale, or at least on the scale of the state of California, reveals the promiscuity with which we are willing to accept economic, instinctive structures to determine our spiritual practices. People have become so accustomed to being economically abused in regular society, that they easily submit to being spiritually abused in cults.
One can measure the level of decadence of our times, when instinctive economic structures can determine spiritual institutions to such an uncontrolled extent.
Another aspect that needs considering is the fact that there is no first line in the Fellowship of Friends but first line is totally replaced by indoctrinated behavior. Conditioned behavior is not evolved or evolving behavior.
First line work is work on one’s self, on one’s centres. Work on control. Because Robert and Girard are not willing to work on themselves they cannot address first line and have allowed for it to be relinquished to the “personal”. But first line of work is work on sexuality, instinctiveness, physical or body education and emotional as much as intellectual work (always and always in the Fourth Way), applied to second and third line or life in the community and life for the well being of humanity at large. None of this applies to the Fellowship of Friend’s closed brothel.
Innernaut – you can email me via a friend’s email: annehun@gmail.com . Thanks!
Wingspread, and Xeeena,
Yes, I think you are sincere but your answering the question as if you were writing RB a letter; for that’s not what I asked. In any case for myself I just wanted to know about Bruce, and he answered me so do what you wish with this subject without including me in the future. Thanks.
19 and 20 are newly moderated.
It seems there are numerous ‘dark nights’ and ‘awakenings’. The mind looks to ‘awaken’ once and for all inside of ‘once’ and ‘for all’.
22 Fat Boy
OK, let’s see:
“Robert, tell me truly. Why in the past 15 – 20 years or so have you emphasised states so much? As if development of being is not important? It seems to me that states can be fairly readily changed by using drugs. So why not just advocate using drugs? I’ve heard that you yourself are addicted to Darvon – is that because you verified that drugs are an easier method of raising your state than changing your level of being?”
or
“Robert, you talk an awful lot about the Celestial City of Paradise. And you tell us that if we leave the school, our chances of reaching that City become worse than nil. How is that different from what the fundamentalist religionists say about Christianity or Islam or Judaism, etc. And how can I tell the difference between what you are saying in this regard and Feminine Dominance, which you tell us to avoid?”
Is this chatty enough for you?
Or was your initial question less than sincere?
Oh, whoops, I see you don’t want to be included in any further discussion on this topic…. sorry.
#20: Elena: Man develops sometimes under the most adverse of circumstances. I’m not trying to belittle your experience in the Fellowship. I left the Fellowship because I grew out of it and so did you. That happened in the Fellowship. That’s basically all was saying.
18 Unoanimo,
Good to hear it.
And I believe smoking would help with this Virgin Woolf, but its too late for me.
Conscience can be a bar steward at times.
j x.
checking my avatar image
“The Minor Prophets” by Michael Lind, from Parallel Lives. © Etruscan Press, 2008.
The Minor Prophets
None of the minor prophets
knew that he was minor, of course. Habakkuk, I imagine,
thought that his visions earned him
standing as Ezekiel’s peer, if not indeed Elijah’s.
Then there was Obadiah,
who could be forgiven if he thought he might be a Moses.
How they would be remembered
Providence concealed from them all, though they could see the future.
Maybe it doesn’t matter.
If you’re on a mission from God, sent to rebuke a city
or to redeem a nation,
where by cannon-makers you’re ranked may be inconsequential.
Nor is the voice within you
any less authentic for not having a distant echo.
Seers of the world, be heartened.
Even minor prophets can have genuine revelations.
#28 LL
It is a good idea to keep an eye on the politics of the cannon-makers.
part 2(4) #460
That is hilarious! I almost peed. I bet the women can really relate to that one.
Wake up little Susy,
I also was not trying to question your statement and sincerely wish I could agree with it. It is also not at all you whose posts I much appreciate and respect, who I was questioning, just taking that statement and using it to present why I think there cannot be any evolution in the Fellowship of Friends.
I would much appreciate it if you have any further thoughts.
Elena
Questions:
to what do you attribute your success in staying out of prison all these years?
was goatse also a conscious being?
3 Leonhardon Da Mincey
11 wingsspread
Classical questions. Thanks!
By asking questions one sees the answers.
Have you noticed that in Fellowship the only question “How” is acceptable and never “Why”?
32 Elena: I’ll try and explain it in another way because I don’t really think we disagree. You have listed many, many things in the Fellowship that are dysfunctional and create a very dysfunctional environment. And I agree with you that with these things in place it is pretty hard to evolve. At the same time I think when people ‘wake up’ to these dysfunctions, they grow out of them and therefore they are evolving. Does that make sense?
Sheik, please delete my last post awaiting moderation under other name. Thanks. I guess my little avatar thingy did not work. Maybe Xeena can help me do it.
21 ak0aka0ka
Sorry, I didn’t realize you had some kind of relationship to the person in question. I hate to say this to anyone, but I don’t trust you. I apologize if I have you confused with someone else.
Thanks for the clarification Bruce.
32 Elena: I’ll try and explain it in another way because I don’t really think we disagree. You have listed many, many things in the Fellowship that are dysfunctional and create a very dysfunctional environment. And I agree with you that with these things in place it is pretty hard to evolve. At the same time I think when people ‘wake up’ to these dysfunctions, they grow out of them and therefore they are evolving. Does that make sense?
Sheik: Please delete the last two posts in moderation. I messed up my name trying to get the avatar thingy and it’s the same post 3 times. thank you.
Veronicapoe
I don’t have an account on GF anymore, so I can’t get your message.
Innernaut – don’t blame you, and no I don’t. Just wanted to make contact, but no problem. Best to you!!
“At the same time I think when people ‘wake up’ to these dysfunctions, they grow out of them and therefore they are evolving. Does that make sense?” WULSuzy….Yes, I agree with this -well put.
I did not get what I came for in the fellowship of friends (way back then) and I do have regrets about the fellowship of friends. And other things too. Humiliating mistakes dot my life (OK- lots of dots). I’ve spent much time on the edge, and have wanted, so much, a life safe from the edge. Maybe I’ll get the balance I crave.
Nevertheless, I DO NOT REGRET THAT I HAVE REGRETS.
ak0aka0ka
Please accept my apologies for my paranoid response. I mistook you for someone else, and that is my fault.
ak0aka0ka
“Humiliating mistakes dot my life (OK- lots of dots). I’ve spent much time on the edge, and have wanted, so much, a life safe from the edge. Maybe I’ll get the balance I crave.”
Spoken like a true edge-dweller. I’m right there with you…
“Nevertheless, I DO NOT REGRET THAT I HAVE REGRETS.”
I’m working up to that one.
40 ak0aka0ka
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kFRuLFR91e4
Dear Friends
Vera Mente. Veronica oe, Old fish in the see, ak0aka0ka, Innernaut and many others…
Your answers were balm to my soul..as the proverb goes.
It vibrates in my heart area
Tears well up.
The friends who tell me? that they got for what they came/….it just did not fit and Veroniapoe, thanks so much for you ONGOING help. You hit the nail….
Old fish yes…have to get my self out of the center… It is something I do not know how….
I trust that answers come as I have experienced now, here on this blog…..
And yes akOakaOka I do not regret that I have regrets….it is so human, so much being a human being.
Maybe this is what Old fish meant: Get yourself out of the center…..and yet the regrets are so there too.
Time is God’s white bloodcell’s acc. to Unanimo and all the above is a balm for me right now.
Innernaut, we are going to work up to that one
I DO NOT REGRET THAT I HAVE REGRETS.”
Thanks all of you, again. THANKS.
I just finished watching Harold and Maude – at the end he says “but Maude I love you” and she says “that’s wonderful Harold. Go and love some more”
Test
Innernaut–Did you have a problem on the GF site and if so did you report it?
This one’s for you FatBoy:
Run Fatboy Run (Trailer)(2007) 2:23:
http://www.youtube.com/v/IcTNIAWetRI
This one’s for you FatBoy::
Run Fatboy Run (Trailer)(2007) 2:23:
http://www.youtube.com/v/IcTNIAWetRI
Dear Joel, Old FOF and You-Me-Us-They,
You posters have wondered why I finally ended my membership in the Fellowship of Friends? Hmmm, I don’t think it was just one thing. I can only say that I finally realized that my time had come. I had a third state about 10:00 a.m. while out walking my dog in the Sint Anna square. And that was it.
One third force was the silly “Message from the Teacher” (which wasn’t really from him after all, I know) about avoiding the Blog and the GFOF: two venues that didn’t matter all that much to me by then anyway, yet I had no wish whatsoever to inner consider them. Another was the lack of support from my fellow bloggers about my efforts to re-educate my Friends. Most of you thought I was just buffering, a reaction at the time that I felt was merely ignorant and judgmental, but, hmmm, well, was I? So I began to feel myself running out of emotional steam, after all, it had been about one year of fairly intensive study, second line, and personal inquiry. But finally, and perhaps most importantly, I had finished writing and begun publishing/mailing a small booklet describing my understandings. Finally, here at least was a way to reach all those Friends who spurned the Blog in a language and format that they could relate to, though they may make of it what they will.
The aim of the booklet was essentially to digest and explore my own understanding of Advaita as a completion of the Fourth Way while simultaneously contrasting it to Robert’s current teaching: two different approaches to evolution, each claiming spiritual universality. I put my best King of Hearts into the effort of writing and crafting the small booklet, examining as best as I could the deeper spiritual questions swirling around and behind our satin curtain, calling a spade a spade. And I wanted very much to be able to share this booklet with Friends when I was still “in”, knowing that when the Berlin Wall falls, every “I” one voices or has ever voiced, quickly becomes discredited. But as it was, I ran out of time, so I mailed off my booklet to maybe fifty students along with my departure love letter. Thus, it was a kind of “Hail Mary” (football) pass. Completing it was a kiss goodbye and a certain resolution of my Saturnine sense of responsibility. Finally, everyone will now have to figure it out for themselves.
To my mind, even from the beginning of my participation in this blog, the solution to the problem of the abuses of power, money and sex in the Fellowship lay more in the dissolving of spiritual ignorance rather than in the resisting of external forms – though both clearly have their place. I don’t wish ill to Robert (I don’t have to, Time will balance all and my guess is that it won’t be pretty), but rather, I wish an end to the spiritual ignorance that has supported this travesty long enough. For some reason (perhaps because it is an incomplete Teaching?), the Fourth Way can be misconstrued to allow the kind of mixed mis-guidance that we have had. Discovering Nisargadatta has been so immensely helpful to me, I can only think that the same will be true for others.
So that’s it! My guess is that it may take awhile for the dust to settle personally, then to see what comes next. I trust it will be good.
Love,
Bass
P.S. Joel, I’ll keep the alias for awhile yet, not for myself but for another, not knowing how autobiographical I may yet wish to become. For anyone who wishes to communicate with me, try spinnaker44@hotmail.com.
Dear Bass,
Good luck on your journey…
All is well and yet each of us have to go through the physical motions of leaving or not leaving.
Of the grieving, and angriness.
Of accepting and forgiving.
The healing,
To come to the being of what we are
All the light and courage to you and all
just checking tiny little picture.
Wake up L. Susy,
It makes a lot of sense that when people wake up to their dysfunctions they grow out of them and evolve.
Would we then agree that this cannot happen as long as they continue to be indoctrinated by the Fellowship of Friends?
Bass Ackwards, Thank you for your courage. I experienced that moment in which the contradictions were too many to stay and had to leave and difficult as it has been I do not regret a day of having been out. Those that are staying and trying to work inside are heroes to me but after doing everything they can they too must jump out or continue to support Robert Burton by their simple presence. I too put pressure on you and am sorry if I hurt you but I am very glad you are coming out and giving yourself the chance to reconstruct yourself with whatever help you have found.
Elena:
Yes, I would definitely agree that although there may be a time (and that’s different for everyone) I believe one understands that if they don’t leave, they’ll just get more of the same and remain stuck. And like you, I do not regret leaving for a moment.
However, I do know people who have gone back. So I would also say that for those people not able to leave, there may have been some understanding but it had not become solid enough to become permanent.
So when I said that people grow in the Fellowship, in this case, some people have to go back, and grow a little more to leave.
Nice picture Suzy, great waves.
Bruce – what is that in the murky depths – I’d like to see it better.
When getting my little square picture, I was struck by the odd choice of term for a blog logo – “avatar.” Maybe just a tad arrogant? Modern jargon.
wingspread – maybe I’ll change it back to the waves. Meow!
a beautiful loser, a man in black and a bird on a wire
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=8rb1rse0fKs
one more for freedom and birds and fabulous people
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=0D196-oXw2k
This one is for you Laura.
It also describes the experience
of being in the
Fellowship of Friends:
http://youtube.com/v/Y2iv_E-Fn9E
To #40 akoakaoka
“Humiliating mistakes dot my life (OK- lots of dots). I’ve spent much time on the edge, and have wanted, so much, a life safe from the edge. Maybe I’ll get the balance I crave.
Nevertheless, I DO NOT REGRET THAT I HAVE REGRETS.”
This is true for me also. Thanks for sharing so openly. It gives me a little courage and reassurance and it made me want to give you a big hug.
It betrays my age, but this song came out when I was on salary at Renaissance…I left shortly after.
anybody know how to get the dark frame around my picture eliminated? I’m new at this stuff!
Here’s another one.
Again, it describes the experience
of being in the
Fellowship of Friends:
Johnny Cash – Ring of Fire 2:32 :
http://youtube.com/v/72qsutDT8RQ
BTW, last one was:
Johnny Cash – Ring of Fire 1968 2:23
Bass Ackwards,
I would very much enjoy receiving a copy of your booklet if you would care to send it to me. My e-mail is tablutatune.net.co. I know nothing about Nisgaradata and would enjoy being introduced to it through your booklet.
Graduates,
I’m sorry you’ve been banned instead of been asked to cool yourself off for a while but can understand the Sheik cannot play more of a therapist than he is already doing.
54 wingsspread
It’s a detail of a b&w photo I took called “the kiss”. Apparently the avatar has to be quite simple to be seen. I’ll find another. You can see the whole photo here: http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=10089293
or here:
http://photo.net/photos/Bruce%20Levy
Thanks Bruce! I thought it was a babboon.
Hey, Bruce, this one would work well because of the high contrast and simplicity. It would need cropping. I like the image title: ‘Going’
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/5887824-md.jpg
66 Bares Reposting
Thanks. That’s the first one I tried. Even with cropping, the little boy is lost and the tunnel ceiling becomes too moire. I think I’ll use the beach scene, but thanks.
The Kiss – beautiful photo, Bruce.
I had quite a hard time finding a username that was not already taken… BTW, lupa is Italian for she-wolf.
Associatively, do you guys and girls know a music group called Animal Collective? They are part of that new psychedelia we talked about a while back, and they are pretty far out.
Seems to me they are busy experimenting with states…
to each his own, right?
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=1xmHUFJICgs
Even though my avatar is kind of a silly picture of a dolphin and a cow, it reminded me of freedom, which seems to be the subject matter of the hour.
The cow is certainly giving it her best try. I like cows because they always seem to be attempting to get under of the fence, as if there’s something so much better on the other side. And the cows that have managed to escape have an air of giddiness about them.
My comment will be in moderation, but Bruce, I agree with wingsspread, absolutely beautiful photo.
68 wingsspread
Thanks.
Bass A.:
This is for you:
E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial –
“I’ll Be Right Here” 4:25:
http://youtube.com/v/pOvR2WudpV8
Bass A.:
This, too, is for you:
E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial –
You’ll Be In My Heart 4:17:
http://youtube.com/v/1KpripUvLs8
What a bunch of kooks we are! Thank God for a little levity – Suzy I love your jumping cow.
Whalerider 60
What a great song, we always play it at parties (yes, life people can dance!)
Bares reposting 58, 62
Thanks. How true.
Sorry, but you sorta asked for it, my gift to you, IMO possibly the most moving song on YouTube. It tears me apart everytime.
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=SmVAWKfJ4Go
Look what you’ve started Joel, now we are aflutter with images of all sorts and colors – *virtual life in a postmodern zoo!* Laura – loved the video with the Beatles. Vena “and it made me want to give you a big hug.” Thanks – I really needed that.
(*virtual life in a postmodern zoo!* I think that would make a good title)
49 Bass
” but rather, I wish an end to the spiritual ignorance that has supported this travesty long enough”.
Thanks for your honesty.
Thirty some years ago when I first contacted the fof, I had some kind of understanding of my goals in relation to what I perceived as ‘evolution’.
Along the way,of course, these goals changed becoming more realistic, in a sense, and less influenced by so-called ‘teachers’.
I think that many of my friends who are still members of the fof
simply don’t want to reexaimne their aims in an attempt to see their validity. Men like RB prey on this ‘mental laziness’.
Spritual abuse continues because it is allowed.
I often wonder what the fof could have become if it hadn’t been ’side tracked’ by the unsatiated desires of a few individuals.
Another of those strange e-mails that has come my way by accident…
Dear Marcie,
I know I’m not supposed to, but I can’t resist, and anyway, I know you like to hear the juicy tidbits as much as I do, so don’t bother with the photographs.
I just heard some more about the Karen J. thing. Apparently Dear Teacher was in New York last month, and this is what happened. He maxed out his credit cards, no kidding! So he called Karen and told her to transfer some money, pronto. And here’s the kicker, she actually talked back at him, and asked him where she was supposed to get the money, there was none left in any of the accounts, the School was broke. So, he blew up and fired her! I know, of course it was for her own good, and it was an intentional expression of negativity, and I know he did it consciously. Karen had no right to say there was no money, she could have transferred money from her own account, couldn’t she? And waited for Influence C to arrange payback? Or not, either way, it would have been an act of external consideration for Robert, and good for her. So, she takes one less trip to Egypt, or ten trips less, whatever, what does it matter? She threw away the opportunity, that’s how I see it, anyway. And why should Robert use his own money, he was on a Teaching trip, so why shouldn’t the School pay when he has his urgent needs?
And you know what, I heard the famous Ms. Fantoni hasn’t left the country after all. Apparently Abe told her to get out of the office, “get lost” (you know, so she wouldn’t spill the beans about all the fake visas, passports and such—after all, she knew everything about the “religious minister training” stuff). So she’s hiding out in the Bay area, apparently in San Francisco. Imagine! I wonder how long she can hold out, it seems like the I.N.S. (sorry, it’s Homeland Security now, I suppose) would be able to find her if she did anything that needed paperwork. So I reckon she’s still on unofficial salary, so to speak. I’m going there next week, wouldn’t it be a laugh if I saw her on the street? Anyway, don’t tell anyone else, it’s a secret.
So, your turn now. Tell me, what’s going to happen to Linda? Hard to imagine her going out to get a real job, somehow. I remember last time they tried to get rid of her, she was back in three weeks, just invented her own job in the exercise police, and nothing anyone could do about it. Have to admit, she’s got moxie! I know, she’s a buddy of yours, so you shouldn’t tell, but at least drop me a hint!
That’s all for now, I’ve got to get back to the keying octave. What begins with “T” and has thirty parts in six groups and is connected with Leonardo’s underwear?
Love, D.
# 43 brucelevy
Hello Bruce,
Nice to have you back.
Nice way to learn french, no?
Aline
For those who could not
play the videos:
Ring Of Fire Lyrics:
Love is a burning thing
and it makes a fiery ring
bound by wild desire
I fell in to a ring of fire…
I fell in to a burning ring of fire
I went down, down, down
and the flames went higher.
And it burns, burns, burns
the ring of fire
the ring of fire.
The taste of love is sweet
when hearts like ours meet
I fell for you like a child
oh, but the fire went wild..
I fell in to a burning ring of fire…..
[etc]
Johnny Cash
The following was originally posted by Mi ritorni in mente on the Italian blog. Since I am not familiar with hypnosis I hope I didn’t stray too far when translating the various commands.
“I extracted from the transcript of Troy Buzbee’s lawsuit the sequence of phrases used by Robert Burton to convince young Troy to have sex with him. While reading, one has to keep in mind the very strong devotion – we can call it veneration – that the Fellowship of Friends promotes in its adepts, even more so in someone as young as Troy (who was 17 at the time).
“I am an angel in a man’s body” – Robert states his divine nature to reinforce it.
“Influence C wishes you to be close with me” – Divine command.
“Your soul is not your body” – dissociation and disorientation.
“The angels wish for you to be with me” – Divine command.
“The angels want you to disrobe” – Divine command, repetition.
“I am an angel, a goddess in a man’s body.” – Reinforces, repetition.
“I promise you I am an angel in a man’s body.” – Reinforces, repetition.
“You have to remember that I did not write the play about Robert Burton.” – dissociation
(kiss on the forehead, the seat of the soul) – how does Troy feel?
“Separate from your body and just let go” – Divine will speaks to you and directly instructs you.
“Your body will soon decay while your soul is immortal” – induction of hypnotic state.
“I will talk to you after you die using the same (soft) voice I use in this moment” – hypnotic trance.
I believe that Robert Burton is a talented hypnotists, and that his form of abuse is not simple. I was particularly impressed by the last sentence: “I will talk to you after you die using the same (soft) voice I use now ” and I almost see him, as he says this.
He is lying, just as he does in other moments and situations, but this is not just any lie. He is pulling a man (and a very young one) into a super-human situation, he is making him believe to be with God, with a fatherly and benevolent superhuman entity that will remain next to his soul even after physical death. I can see him, and beyond his angelic appearance I see a reptile, that has captured its prey. I believe that Robert Burton is a hypnotizer, a black magician. I am sincerely sorry that he has managed to drag so many beautiful persons in an objective web of complicity for his sordid actions. I ask myself if and when Robert Burton will be stopped.”
The scene is creepy beyond words… Grazie Mi ritorni in mente!
An interesting excerpt on the subject of hypnosis as used in Scientology:
http://www.religio.de/atack/impla.html
75 Deep Throat
Good one, thanks. News is useful… (cackle cackle- I can’t help myself, I’m guess I’m still asleep). Oh yeah, it’s karma.
Their karma ran over their dogma.
Not to worry, Deep Throat, any number of dedicated ‘deep pockets’ could be asked to max out THEIR credit cards with cash advances or lines-of-credit and donate the funds to the ‘church.’ The donations could be tax deductible (at least they could try that strategy) and that way the U.S. government (read: the other tax payers) can help pay the debt service costs and indirectly support the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burton. What goes around comes around.
75 Deep Throat
When they lose their tax status, guess what, all those deductible donations the “students” claimed become null and void….and due in back taxes plus penalties and interest. Not to mention the ensuing audits for past years donations. Some of the “students” will be paying a “special donation” in the form of whopping tax due bills. It’s sd, and ironic.
I’m not so sure that a loss of non-profit status would be retroactive.
75 Deep Throat.
Thanks for sharing.
who knows, that might be a joke email that ‘throat’ got? I do think the fellowship of friends is in some danger of losing non-profit status and that would be bad financially- particularly for RB and also the board. I’d be really worried if I were on the board. I used to think it is easy to lose church status, but the more I learn I see that there is alot of leeway for churches (look at the Mormon fundamentalists -FLDS. Amazing and creepy). The financial improprieties IMO might be more of a threat to the fellowship of friends, especially if there are folks willing to provide information.
Its fun to see all the little pictures. It proves that ‘old people’ (which according to my daughter is anyone over the age of 24) can still learn. Of course some here may actually not be ‘old’ – or completely human for that matter.
xeeena
Nothing happened on the GF. I just took a breather. Thanks.
icon check
85 – your icon won’t show up until WordPress processes it.
81 wingsspread
I would guess if they are found to have not actually meet the requirements as to tax status and legit bookkeeping, they can be audited for past years to see if the same situation existed. If that was also found to be illegal then that prior years tax arrangements would also be subject to change. Of course the lawyers can negotiate with the IRS during settlement but you know they’re not going to be negotiating for the members. Their concern is going to be for RB and various protected members (if there are any by that time)
If a company is found to be running fraudulently they don’t excuse prior years and say ” oh well, we didn’t catch you then, we’ll just forget about it”.
Elena, thank you so much for your wonderful post (#25-20).
In this post (and many others before, I know) I appreciate the way you highlight the importance of community and the imperishable connection between the individual and community. I agree that if the community tries to focus only on the divine in one individual and is taught to disregard the divine in each other member, there is a huge flaw that cannot be overcome.
In the month or so after I got the boot in 1994, I was contacted by several members bearing messages from Burton. Of course, I have no idea what the purpose was, though I imagine it was an attempt to get the last (of many) words in, and also create some state of disempowerment in me, to counteract any effect I might be having on the laity. Anyway, the minions delivered their messages, and one of them was, “Ames made the mistake of thinking that there is a community here at Apollo, and became identified with it”.
Well, yes, I did think there was (and still is) a community there at Apollo/Isis, even if it is dysfunctional and unbalanced. Moreover, that Burton displays his lack of consciousness by maintaining that there is not, or that it is not important. I had the same idea that you do, Elena, (if I am understanding you correctly), that becoming more awake as a human on an individual basis is not really much use without the context of the community. Another way of putting this might be, contextless awakening is an imaginary construct of ego, and if one aspired to this, the temptation of seeking ‘powers’ for their own sake would arise. Putting one’s awakened self (whatever that means) to service can only happen in the context of community (and this includes the invisible aspects). What else is there to serve? What could be of higher service than to re–cognize the divine within other members of the community? And, what else other than ‘feedback’ from other members would provide the balance to stop one becoming inhuman?
88 Ames Gilbert
becoming more awake as a human on an individual basis is not really much use without the context of the community. Another way of putting this might be, contextless awakening is an imaginary construct of ego, and if one aspired to this, the temptation of seeking ‘powers’ for their own sake would arise.
———————–
Perhaps this is what motivated Robert Burton to make those statements about there being no community. Members feeling responsible for or having a conscience about something beyond their personal evolution would take power and authority away from him.
Hey, Deep Throat, around page25#75 (~comment#11162), I was wondering, based on what your post said:
‘So I reckon she’s still on unofficial salary, so to speak.’
(And, this is a ‘how’ question;
not a ‘why’ question.) Just how many people will have to be on ‘protective’ retainer, indefinitely, in the ‘witness’ protection program (read: disappear) so that they may not fall into the ‘burning ring of fire’ of turning State’s evidence? Do you think there is a whole lot of ‘protection’ that’s going to be needed?
Oh, and also, K.J. didn’t know anything about the Swiss bank account(s)? What about the gold in them thar hills?
#60 WhaleRider
Adding insult to injury.
Your song reminded me of when I left.
I had my fill of the cassical music crap and was listening to the evil rock and roll against the exercise of the time. I was still pretty inured in all the superstitious mumbo-jumbo though it was starting to all smell pretty foul.
Anyway, I was asked to go up to the ‘Lodge’ to talk to Miles. I wasn’t sure what it was all about. He accused me of some pretty severe shit and said that ‘in life’ I could be put in jail and blah, blah, blah (this all over some pass I made at a married woman while I was in a somewhat intoxicated state, which was about the norm for me at the time).
He said he had talked to Robert Burton and that I had to leave the Fellowship of Friends. Well, I was shocked and mounted some futile protest which did not move him in the least.
Numb, I got in my car and headed off the property not having the slightest idea where I was going to go after I packed up my meager belongings from the shitty trailer I was living in.
As I rolled on my way toward the gatehouse I turned on the radio and the song that was playing was-
“Another One Bites the Dust” by Queen
Just what I needed!
I talked to MB years later and though he didn’t really apologize he did say that he thought that it was the best thing that could have happened according to his understanding now (paraphrase).
I agree.
Yesri baba says: “I had my fill of the cassical music crap and was listening to the evil rock and roll against the exercise of the time.”
I missed a lot of great music during the 80s thanks to the classical music overload. That ticked me off a few years later when I realized all the great music that I missed.
That’s one topic we rarely talk about on the blog — how classical music was not only annoying at times, but also how it was used to hypnotize people.
———————————-
On another topic, sort of, I was thinking the other day about the reasons behind all of the name changes over the years… thought it was interesting that the name changed to “Apollo” when people started making connections between Renaissance Winery and the Fellowship of Friends.
And then years later, the name changed from Apollo to Isis. Maybe the entire reason for that was to avoid people making connections between Apollo Olive Oil and the Fellowship of Friends. Not that olive oil is ever going to make money, but you can you see the Public Relations efforts in that.
I’ve often looked at the FOF as being a very weird combination of slick advertising and public relations, incompetence, and complete disregard for the welfare of its members.
Of course, if there is a PR team they’ve done a horrible job of keeping the bad news from getting out lately.
I hope this works – new medium for me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mVhFwztRp8
David Bromberg; I will never be your fool –
should have listened to it again 20 years ago….
92 BF
And what about the 70s?
God save the queen
It’s a fascist regime
She made you a moron
Potential H-bomb
(Sex Pistols)
Very apropos, don’t you think? Reminds me of Rumi, in a way.
Oh Ames, Thank you for hearing and saying it in such a great and easy way! And short!!! I’ve been so tempted to stop writing thinking I couldn’t get myself across, you’ve made every effort worth while. You and those who have responded at different times. Thank you. I haven’t been this happy in a long, long time.
I remember when you left, I had just arrived from India and had a problem with a dear friend, one of Robert’s boys who abused my generosity not giving the house I had lent him for six months to the renters so I asked in the good householder part of the meeting how we were going to deal with abuse of friendship. Linda buffered the question and said we could talk about it after and some of you interrupted her and asked to discuss it then and there. I heard you’d been asked to leave the day after and got myself many enemies for having been the one to trigger the explosion. Five years later Gerda A. still told me she’d never liked me because of that, which seemed totally out of my control. I only realized it was you who’d been there after I left the Fellowship.
I do wish you had made a little more noise at the time which brings me to a question I’ve been pondering on lately which is the idea of picketing the gatehouse when there are big events. Journey forths and Christmas, when people from abroad visit. I know it has no taste Across the River, but if anyone had consistently picketed the gatehouse during the seventeen years I was in the Fellowship of Friends I would not have lasted eight. The fact that there was NO questioning coming from anywhere helped people like me to stay and believe in the Fellowship a lot more than the credibility on the people inside. It added so much to the idea that no real harm was being done to anyone and that it was doing its best. But lots of harm has been done to almost everyone all the time and because no one ever complained, shouted, told, screamed, picketed the gatehouse, we did not get to know. I’m happy to accept responsibility for my deep desire to believe that it was real but if I had been consistently pushed a little it would have taken a lot less time to escape.
It is a fact that there are hundreds of students still in the Fellowship who don’t read the blog so the blog is not a solution for them. Those who don’t read it are the most indoctrinated ones. The ones who need the help most. They will hate the picketing but it will not make them stronger. Like water on a rock, it will open the channels for doubt. So I am sorry I did not picket the gatehouse when I was in the States. There is nothing like a human being standing there and saying “This mf is a fraud so open your eyes you ah and get the hell out before the poison gets into your very soul.” It is getting into the soul of people and we are not being able to reach them. Girard Haven and Robert Burton, Linda T. probably and many others are beyond talking help, they need actions, real change, for them to even have a chance. Not violence but law.
I was watching a law movie recently and the hero lawyer was asked why he loved the Law and he said “Because every once in a long, long while, one becomes a part of justice being made”.
Like to you Ames, that idea that there is no community in the Fellowship of Friends was also told to me often by Girard Haven who would say that that was not a community but a School. But they just wouldn’t stop and continued to say:
this is not a School for healing,
there is no justice in this world,
you haven’t come here to change the School,
on and on they kept saying the most horrible things about themselves and felt good about it. That was when I told Elizabeth that I would be very happy to leave because I did not wish to share my life with such people. What was shocking was when I asked Girard ‘then, where is the human side of the Fellowship’? And he said, “Oh, I had never thought about it in those terms”. He was actually puzzled for a moment but not long enough. The other Girard quickly took over. What was even more surprising was that Collin L. answered exactly in the same terms: “I had never thought about it in those terms”. If these two men who are held as the most human aspect of the Fellowship of Friends have never thought about it in those terms, what hope is there?
In a way it is much easier to deal with Robert T. who’ll just say straight out loud in any meeting that there are people not worth spending any time with and holding to his imaginary harem of devotees for whom his vanity has no limits, but at least he’s straightforward and you never even dream you can count on him. But the others like Girard who students think he is a moveless rock of human values, cannot be more deceived. I am not saying, DON’T love him, what I am saying is, if you love him, get him out of there and if you can’t get him out of there, get “there” out of him. Do this for each of your selves.
I’m sorry Ames, I’m getting carried away as often when I write to someone like you and end up screaming to students still inside, then having to apologize to you for something I was saying to somebody else. Always more to students than to those who are out. Sometimes I am only screaming at Girard, begging him, but if he could not listen to love I doubt he’ll hear me shouting.
Anyway, going back to our story, thank you for hearing and echoing your heart back to me. Yes, the community is everything for the individual if he wants to develop himself. First line connects in ever so many different ways to second and third line. Each man is his own path in this connection but his weaving belongs to all of us because we are loved by it. No matter what our work is, it is an act of love. People do not work to make money but to love, they just don’t know it. We don’t know it. We still think we work for money and diminish both ourselves and others do in thinking like that. But as long as we think like that we will not know what we are doing nor can our doing help develop us. We need to know that what we and others do is an act of love. Everyone is needing to be acknowledged with gratitude. Your gratitude to me today is worth all the suffering I’ve experienced in the Fellowship of Friends. It is not more than gratitude, it is not for my ego to shine in its falseness, it is simply for the joy of sharing our beings. Thank you.
The theory was so right in the Fellowship of Friends. Robert would say, “everyone is doing their best” and I consistently wondered why, when we are all doing our best we are treated and treat each other like shit. He knew so much but what he most knew was how to channel it all to himself through the sick inner circle that was eager to stand in between and make nothing of our efforts then run to Robert and take advantage of them for their personal profit. Use him against others and suffocate as many as they didn’t like, throw them out of the Fellowship when they could. The exchange of invisible power in the Fellowship of Friends is so much more corrupt than cocaine being dealt out in the streets. The emotional games going on inside are the most devastating interchanges anyone can be put through and those like Girard who think they are making a profit becoming addicts to the blind love of the adepts, whose beauty is sucked out by the beast, are the most damaged blood suckers of them all. They need more help than anyone else.
To just stand there in a meeting and keep devotional silence to whom ever is speaking with the condition that you have to listen but cannot speak, is the most humiliating contract that people have been asked to endure. “You are not slaves, you are not beggars, you are simply not even worth listening to” and students put up with this treatment and think they are going to heaven, while in hell. The only expertise the Fellowship has mastered, is the mastership of humiliation. All the indoctrination is designed to make students tolerate an endless amount of humiliation without protesting, without negative emotions which is really the only exercise absolutely necessary for the Fellowship of Friends to continue. The Fellowship rips people off and makes them feel they are being blessed. It is such an irony to realize that if they had actually wanted to make people conscious they would have also managed, but they were masters, are masters…….of corruption.
When people consistently accept to be humiliated, no matter how pretty it all looks, their I withdraws just like children in essence who are consistently abused. After much abuse, after much accepting the authority of the abusers, the abuser can ask for anything and get it: More young men for my bed, more money, more students to corrupt and exploit, more wives, more adepts.
Please, all of you, understand what we are dealing with, I beg you. We still have time to put an end to this and move on without shame.
Thank you Ames. I was so happy when I started writing and ended up crying again. But that has been a common pattern for a long time. They are not too different, laughing and crying. But I’m O.K.
Deep throat, You also made me laugh out loud with your post. Thank you. It’s so amazing how eager I am to know about what is happening inside. God, I miss them and both want to k them and kiss them and was so happy to hear that Karen told Robert there wasn’t any money. You should meet Karen one day Bruce, she was my center director when I joined in London and she is deeply human and funny in her composure and knows deep down everything that is going on and laughs nervously. It just caught her by the neck and it is strangling her like so many others. They all know but they don’t know how to handle it and need help.
testing avatar picture, the black and white blog is becoming more lively, fun!
walking out the door
wind moving through our hair, warmed by the sun
glorious, knowing that right is on our side
but do we really ever, truly, walk out that door
when, you hear it,
about one still there, one bearing up bravely,
when, life, fate, whatever, deals that ultimate blow
and there will be no recompense
when you hear it,
and it grabs you in the night,
and you doubt that you would have the strength
do you not still feel all those warm hands who have pressed themselves against your heart?
do you not still feel all those warm smiles that float against your cheeks?
do we every truly leave this place,
ever truly walk out that door?
Cake
94 Elena
You can’t “get them out”, without a lot of resentment, and appearing a bit off the wall. We can help them out, but they are the one’s who need to make a decision, in their own time.
The sad one will be the one’s who couldn’t make the decision, if and when it collapses, and they are left standing there looking at themselves (hopefully), with (as the saying goes) their dick in their hand.
More elevator questions:
Other than now, what were the times you thought the scheme was closest to falling apart?
Was it the likelihood that the scheme was going to crumble that made you renew your teaching credential in 1975? You thought you’d have to go back to teaching elementary school, didn’t you?
You did a lip sync with Peggy at Springhill that had everyone in stitches. What was the name of the song?
Would you tell us the story again how you sacrificed a goat? Did you slit its throat? Did it cry out in pain?
Tell us the story again about how you got stabbed in high school.
Did you ever consider getting sex abuse counseling for the incestuous relations with mom and sis?
It was the lip sync with Peggy that gave you the idea for “C influence is making my lips move. They are making your ears work.” Wasn’t it? I mean, they absolutely loved you in that lip sync in 1966. And you turned the lip sync into your career. Right?
Are the Mom and Sis things confirmed or was that humor?
Not humor. The only ones who could confirm such a thing are the participants. However, this one is “widely reported,” attributed to statements made by the male participant independently to several people at different times.
Explains the misogyny and the emphasis on “overcoming feminine dominance,” doesn’t it?
More from “The Male Participant”:
“Why does Everything include things I don’t like?”
And from Thomas Pynchon:
“In a small courtyard within a courtyard, he came upon a group of men and women, engaged in a slow ritual movement, a country dance, almost.”
Was it a community?
Hi Veronicapoe,
You wrote: “Explains the misogyny and the emphasis on “overcoming feminine dominance,” doesn’t it?”
Yes, it does. Your comments above (and many of your earlier posts) make me wonder what else we don’t know about the man’s past (i.e., before around 1970 or 1971). I’m sure it would shed a lot of light on things if we knew more.
He tried to present an image of himself (to us gullible cult members anyway) as a “serious Fourth Way student who struggled through Alex Horn’s group and who was later inspired by the gods to found a new school and establish an ark and assist his students in the work.”
Not quite an accurate depiction, was it? And it also leaves a few things out.
Comrade, stay tuned. The best is yet to come.
Newcomers to this discussion, or those who’d like to give it fresh attention, should visit archive dot org. In the search field, type “veronicapoe.”
Beside his sexual abuse by mom and sis, do not forget the story, he has been spreading that he, as a boy was sexually abused by a Russian man.
Do you have any knowledge about sexual abuse and its dynamics?
One person frequently will be abused by different people in his/ her family or acquaintances. Second that he/she in his turn will abuse children/ teenagers when he/ she is a teenager/ adult.
The circle of negativity continues. The above “shoes” fit.
2, 36, 50, 56, 73, 74, 80, 103, 105 and 115 are newly moderated.
Beautiful avatars by the way.
For those interested, “Letter to Appeal-Democrat, January 7, 1982″ is now online:
http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_935
Allow me to publicize post 86 that the good Sheick missed to mention. I would love some feedback on that one, especially from people who have been personally abused. Do you think it plausible that there was some form of hypnotic mechanism involved?
#86: Very interesting Lauralupe. Beliefs are so fluid that given a belief system of any kind (including the 4th way) and a Black Magician (REB) manipulation of individuals is pretty easy, because the participants (or students) hyponotize themselves. How perfect!
Bass Ackwards,
I do not think you got enough congrats for leaving the Fellowship of Friends.
Congratulations then! Welcome back to your Spiritual freedom and adulthood, welcome back to your self who has been waiting to tell you all along you have already all you need deep in your heart.
The road ahead is wide and beautiful!
——————————————————————————-Cake 106
…..Beautiful poem, I am projecting my understandings into it.
When you say:
“…do we every truly leave this place,
ever truly walk out that door?”
are you saying that it is difficult to really leave behind something (the fof)?Perhaps hunted with memories that come up daily for a long while…
When you say:
“…about one still there, one bearing up bravely,
when, life, fate, whatever, deals that ultimate blow
and there will be no recompense…”
This reminds me of the SAD reality of the average Fellowship of Friends student. There will not be recompense from Robert Burton’s promises.
Fortunately he cannot steal every shred of a soul, or so I hope.
But how many people died surrounded by the cruel/loving C influence?
and how many people had to begin again from scratch in life after giving everything to the FOF?
Thank you Cake.
#123 and how many people had to begin again from scratch in life after giving everything to the FOF?”
I believe that the ones who have left the Fellowship and are most successful at starting a new life have given up the Fourth way system because of its hypnotic effect due to previous associations given to it. And with that said I see nothing wrong with the Fourth Way System, but especially in the beginning distancing oneself from it is helpful.
Sorry Laura, spelled your new name wrong. Lauralupa. I love that.
About the use of hypnotism: Yes.
I’m guessing even people who are still part of the Fellowship are long past the point of being shocked by that idea — the idea that Robert Burton uses hypnotism, or some sort of hypnotism. Ironic isn’t it? Teaching awakening — by putting us to sleep.
But I really think it’s a combination of things — not just hypnotism. In addition to that, the vulnerable state that people are in helps Burton manipulate them. Vulnerable because of ego, because there’s a belief that they’re somone special if they’re close to the man (although I’m sensing this type of adoration is fading very quickly). Or, more disturbing, vulnerable because of sincere and innocent openness.
Burton is also able to manipulate men into sex because of the culture in the Fellowship that teaches people to not trust their own instincts. Additionally, this same culture trains people to believe that they’re supposed to be open to new experiences to learn about their “mechanicality” — and one of these experiences would be having sex with “your teacher.”
I’m sure Burton has used that one many times — the notion that we’ll never “see ourselves” if we don’t try something new. And something new with him preferably.
The idea that “trying something new” was the right action also made this writer vulnerable to the charms of a Chinese woman. I wonder if this guy also stumbled into some sort of cult.
_____________________________
When the winds of suggestion take you for a strange ride
By Michael Shapiro
What’s the worst that could happen, I asked myself, when an attractive young woman I’d met in Tiananmen Square invited me to dinner. Three hours later I was being held against my will in a dimly lit ground-floor room many miles from the heart of Beijing. I didn’t know where I was, a consequence of being driven in circles. I’d been stripped of my passport, money, credit cards and clothes, and was told by a muscular Chinese man wearing a tank top to remain lying naked and face down.
I retraced the evening: Dark clouds massed on the horizon above Tiananmen Square at dusk as I walked across its vast stone expanse under Chairman Mao’s watchful gaze. A 20-foot-high digital clock with the Olympics logo counted down the number of days (374), minutes and seconds to the 2008 games.
Near the center of the square a woman who appeared to be about 30 struck up a conversation with me. Slender with black hair halfway down her back, an easy smile and a buoyant laugh, Hong spoke English in staccato bursts. Her energy could have lit up a Vegas casino. I became suspicious, however, when she complimented my “long eyelashes” and was preparing my getaway line when the first drops fell from the heavens.
Then Hong (at least that’s what she called herself) said she knew a great place nearby for Peking duck. I’d told myself that on this trip I’d try to be more open and less skeptical. Now on the other side of 40, my travels had become a bit more predictable, and I was ready to be led by the winds of suggestion.
As the rain pelted us, Hong opened her umbrella and sheltered us from the storm. She unwrapped a tamarind candy and offered me one. I accepted. As we walked along a willow-draped creek, she told me she was an only child in a family who lived near Harbin (in northeast China). She sold Audis at a car dealership, she said, and was visiting Beijing for a week.
The restaurant was crowded and alive with boisterous conversation; I was relieved to see it didn’t need a con artist to attract customers. We feasted on the duck, a heaping plate of stir-fried Chinese greens, a chicken dish with peanuts and a radish salad. The duck was tender and richly flavorful: we rolled strips of it in thin crepes with strands of scallion and hoi sin sauce and washed it down with light Yanjing beers.
The bill was 290 yuan (about $40), more than one needs to pay for dinner in Beijing but probably fair for such a feast. I said I’d pay 200 yuan – Hong agreed to pay the rest. But she had to dig into her wallet and purse to come up with 90 yuan, and again I wondered about her.
“I want to take you to a club near my hotel,” Hong said. We’d take a taxi to the south side of Beijing, outside the city’s second ring road.
“Let’s stay in this neighborhood,” I countered. “There are plenty of places we can go for a drink.”
“I really want to go this club,” she insisted. “I went with friends last time I was in Beijing. You listen to music reclining in lounge chairs.”
The bright lights of central Beijing receded and the roads flooded. As we approached the club, thunder boomed above and we drove through foot-deep waters that left the little taxi sputtering and coughing.
The “club” looked almost vacant: it was a squat, square building with little lighting and no visible sign. A young man and woman met us at the door: “You go with him,” Hong said. She’d go with the woman. “Clothes,” the man gestured, holding out what looked like a pair of pajamas. He led me to a locker room.
Feeling like I was on a carnival ride and couldn’t get off, I changed, locked up my clothes, and strapped my passport and valuables around my waist. I walked upstairs with Hong, passing a series of small numbered rooms with little beds. “No way,” I thought.
But Hong didn’t try to seduce me. Instead we reclined on chairs you’d expect to find next to a pool. We had a beer in a nearly empty room fronted by a vacant stage. I told her I wasn’t comfortable and would like to go elsewhere.
“OK, soon,” she said. “After beer we go back downstairs. You go with men and later I meet you at front.”
I went back into the locker room to get my clothes. Two men grabbed my arms and motioned for me to remove my pajamas. Another man took the key from my hand and opened my locker, showing me where to store my passport and money.
One of the men led me to the showers and then insisted I lie down on a table covered with Saran-like plastic wrap. I complied. Soon I was being pummeled by the muscular man whose cupped hands bounced off my back.
I didn’t come to Asia to get a massage from a man. But after hauling my backpack for a few weeks I thought, OK, why not. Maybe once the massage is over I’ll be free to go. The massage soon became a sponge bath. After being soaped and loofah-scrubbed in the most personal of places, I got up and went back to the shower. Finally I can get the hell out of here, I thought.
Not so fast, my Chinese friends suggested. One of my escorts led me to a sauna, opened the door and shut me inside. Is this the end, I wondered: I’ll die locked in a sauna, roasted till I’m crispier than a Peking duck.
A few minutes later I pushed on the sauna door; it yielded without resistance. I showered and retrieved my clothes and valuables.
The bill was about $100 for a beer each and a sponge bath. Hong offered to pay her half and I let her. It seemed like a lot of money but certainly a far cry from the worst that could have happened.
Looking back, I’m still not sure whether this was a scam. And though the evening had moments of uncertainty and discomfort, I’ll always remember the night I let the winds of suggestion take me for a ride.
Michael Shapiro is the author of “A Sense of Place: Great Travel Writers Talk About Their Craft, Lives, and Inspiration” (Travelers’ Tales).
121 Laura Lupa,
how funny, I looked into wolves for my avatar among the many choices I was thinking of.
It sounds right for you, noble being!
About hypnotism, I am sure Robert Burton did not study the technique but it came quite natural to him.
First of all we gave him our trust and unconditional obedience…
He has definitively a routine for setting the trap (wine too), he is also very quick in jumping over his prey like his victims who have been sexually abused described often so they do not have time to think it over until after the fact.
I remember one time Unoanimo called him a quivering rabbit, that is a great description of his nature obsessed with sex,
although in reality he is more like what “mi ritorni in mente” said:
” I can see him (Robert Burton), and beyond his angelic appearance I see a reptile, that has captured its prey.”
Creepy indeed.
117 Veronicapoe
Comrade, stay tuned. The best is yet to come.
____________________
I will definitely stay tuned. Looking forward to learning more.
Bruce,
Thank you for replying.
“You can’t “get them out”, without a lot of resentment, and appearing a bit off the wall. We can help them out, but they are the one’s who need to make a decision, in their own time.”
Is that really it? The fear of resentment and appearing a bit off the wall? Is it that it costs money and effort? That we don’t really care? Not enough? Or that we continue to think the damage is not harmful enough?
How resented do you think people would be in the long run? After two or three years when they’ve digested the whole thing and realize that they were being raped and ripped off, raping and ripping others off thinking they were helping them to evolve?
And a bit off the wall? Do you think we are more a bit off the wall for finding a lawyer that will straighten things out the way it shoud be than for not being willing to find one?
And they are the ones that need to make the decision in their own time? So it doesn’t matter how many more young men fill the ranks, or how many more students join in centers and pay for the brothel they imagine to be a conscious school? Because the petty criminals need to take their own time to decide when to stop?
I do wish to understand what is really keeping us from taking practical action against the Fellowship of Friends so I thank you for sharing.
Whalerider, in the presentation of your case you mentioned you were not interested in suing the Fellowship of Friends. Does that mean you are not interested in stopping it enough that you would not consider suing it together with other people, not for your personal suffering to be payed for or to get money for your personal benefit but to stop the continued abuse on other men as you were abused?
I would sincerely appreciate understanding the bottomline that is being carried here because I don’t personally enjoy talking about horror without seeing an end to it, just as I was not willing to look at it being practiced without questioning and remain in the Fellowship of Friends.
These questions are meant to question not to attack anyone.
Hi Elena:
One thing that I learned working for lawyers is if you are not prepared to pay, guilty or not, don’t even start it. The amount of paperwork thrown at someone can be staggering, and that’s just the point. In order to be able to keep up with it and not be in contempt of court, you will have to get a lawyer yourself, and they are very expensive.
Typically personal injury attorneys take their share out at the end (typically 40%, not including expenses paid up front), but some want their expenses paid in advance.
A class action suit would be the most practical way to go, to keep expenses down if you could find enough folks interested (not sure of how many you would need but it’s quite a few).
I sued my father for stealing my inheritance. It was one of the worst experiences of my life. And it was so unpleasant I ended up dropping the suit, even though I had a good case.
Being involved in a lawsuit can be extremely stressful and ugly and you have to be ready for a wild ride along with many emotional ups and downs.
I don’t think many people have the stomach for it. After what I went through (most of it internal) I would really wonder if it’s worth it.
Although I do agree with you that many people are suffering needlessly, I believe by regularly putting our input on this blog may be the best way to effect what’s happening inside the confines of the Fellowship. Thank God for free speech and flying cows.
129 Elena
I see it as two different things. I can see doing what is necessary to expose the truth about RB and the Fellowship of Friends. I still feel that, short of the Fellowship collapsing, it’s better for people to reach a conclusion and decision for action on their own. I think it does more for one’s personal work.
I told you when we met that in the event of a legal process against the Fellowship and/or Robert Burton, I would willingly be there to tell the truth, my truth, as a witness if I was called.
As for picketing, not so much, UNLESS, there was a live band, good food, better wine (not RVW wine) and a party (half kidding).
love to you Elena.
I like the idea of picketing where there is a live band, good food, better wine and a party. (not kidding)
I’m not sure picketing is really my thing – but the party sounds good.
And I do so enjoy the mental image of a large sign right outside Isis during one of these big ‘events’ that says “Caution: dangerous sexual predator within”.
Thanks lauralupa, I think you’re on to something big with the hypnotism idea. It actually would explain quite a bit.
Some years ago there was a firm exercise with frequent reminders to always look into the teacher’s left eye during meetings and dinners. Isn’t this also a common technique for inducing hypnosis? “Look into my eyes….”
I remember a dinner with Robert several years ago when he still liked to have me directly across the table. I was looking into his eyes intently as he spoke, and realized that his left and right eyes were turned in different directions. It was pretty freaky but I definitely felt a calm sense of confidence in him. At the time I had the thought that he was literally dividing his attention. Anyway, without a doubt the state I experienced that evening was mesmerizing and had a dreamlike quality.
It seems so obvious now; but when you are the one who’s hypnotized it’s a different story. All the more reason to forgive our poor silly-sounding comrades on the inside. This also reminds me of Veronicapoe’s pictures of early days and those sweet gullible children most of us were back then. Hypnotized? Absolutely.
I think the question of how Robert Earl Burton may have learned his tricks is irrelevant. What is hypnotism after all other than mind control. Probably every cult leader worth his salt uses hypnotism, whether knowingly or unknowingly. Ouspensky mentions the hypnotic quality of Gurdjieff’s eyes when they met, and Gurdjieff himself told the fable of the magician and the hypnotized sheep. Here’s a link to it:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Village/9888/Gstories.html
I’m there for a Greater Fellowship party somewhere near the gatehouse. Is there a way to do it legally? Or how about a “gay pride” style parade of 200-300 people along Rices Crossing Road? With a little advertising at the OH store I bet the locals would turn out in force.
Sounds like a fun party. I think we should all wear t-shirts with writing on them and bluejeans. Absolutely no classical music allowed.
There is no good definition of Truth, just the living of it. As soon as we know, we don’t know anymore.” — Adyashanti
Elena 129
‘would sincerely appreciate understanding the bottomline that is being carried here because I don’t personally enjoy talking about horror without seeing an end to it, just as I was not willing to look at it being practiced without questioning and remain in the Fellowship of Friends’.
Good question, Elena. Part of an answer maybe in the quote from Adyashanti.
I think one of the main forces still holding the fof together is simply fear. Fear of being ‘wrong’,fear of the unknown, fear of
‘C influence’.
RB uses fear to his advantage because many of his deciples,whether they admit it or not, are hypnotised by fear.
I think we need to be careful on what type of action is taken against RB and the fof since the last thing I want to see is RB
put into ‘martyr status’. This would be a justification for members to remain rather than exit this decomposing ’school’.
I think our continued exposure of the facts, as many of us have experienced them, on this Blog and the GF Blog is a good
beginning, but the ‘bottomline’ may still be some ways off.
Party at the Gatehouse or nearby……
One of the best ideas yet to come from the blog. As a “local” I know many would attend. I can see it now.
Beer, BBQ and lots of music…. show those poor souls still entrenched in the FOF that there is LIFE out here.
I don’t envision it as a protest because of the negativity and “threat” such a protest might evoke from both students and locals. But rather a celebration and reunion. A joyful event.
Bring your guitars, your artwork, your stories, your children.
Maybe rent out the Willow Glen.
Can you just imagine it???
Can you still rent out the Oregon House Community Center? That would be a nice visible location.
Probably xeeena
As a classical musician (dating from pre-FoF), it pains me that Robert seems to have poisoned the enjoyment of such for so many. Please, the pompous, pretentious FoF presentation of “classical” music (only from the eras between Bach and Tchaikovsky, with maybe a little Rachmaninov thrown in, and please, no English!) is not the truth of classical music, nor classical musicians! Try a performance of El Mundo, or Jordi Savall and Monserrat Figuera, or the Kronos Quartet. There’s a lot of great music out there.
Robert’s interest in classical music is shallow, pretentious, sentimental and quite uneducated! What he likes to hear is closer to Muzak than music (remember the days of Pachelbel’s Canon ad nauseum?). I, too, can not hear Shepherd on the Rock any more without cringing – too bad, because it is a great piece of music.
Unfortunate that people listened to only one type of music for so long. Great music is great no matter the genre. I suppose there might even be some great heavy metal out there somewhere…..
141 Sharon
me too! I much prefer classical with only a few exceptions The Fellowship of Friends didnt manage to ruin that for me.
however a friend just pointed this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-mEGZf_x3c
j x
ps laura. yep he is a hypnotist, soft monototous voice fixed stare etc.
I think we’re getting a bit out there with RB as hypnotist. It’s not that simple- we asked for it and put up with it. I think too sluff it off as hypnotism is a cop out, and it gives RB far more credit than his simple mind deserves. It’s the typical “cult” dynamic, plain and simple. Not that it doesn’t have many of the attributes of hypnotism- suggestion, willing subject, motivation. will to power, will to submission. I think calling it hypnotism is detracting credibility from the important things that are being said here. IMO.
If anything, we hypnotized ourselves.
Same goes for the use of “black magician”. WE know what it means, and it’s initial use by G, but others don’t. We should be aware of how what we say here could be misunderstood by visitors.
141 Sharon
I do miss Dvorak’s and Tchaikovsky’s Serenades for Strings–music to sip liqueur and eat jelly-filled cookies by. And, of course, Diana Gilfeather playing the mechanical doll from Les Contes d’Hoffman.
Jack – good song. There was a picture near the beginning of a mouth on a hand – reminds me of a voice teacher I once had, telling me to sing as if my mouth is in my outstretched hand, not in my jaw.
I don’t think that I was hypnotised by Robert. He could be very charismatic, however, and sometimes I rather expanded if he gave me positive attention (very rare). Mostly though, I struggled to keep some vestige of self esteem in the atmosphere of constantly feeling inadequate. And bitched internally at Robert’s lack of taste, lack of judgement, lack of integrity, lack of education, and lack of intelligence.
From the beginning, I remained in the Fellowship of Friends in spite of Robert, not because of him. Over the past 10-15 years, as the school became more and more the adoration of The Teacher, and less and less about verification and practical work, I retreated more and more, becoming almost completely reclusive. Finally burst out, and it feels great.
Now, however, I find myself angry at the waste of the past 15 years, those years spent living at Ren/Apollo/Isis. Not the waste of money or the waste of career. The waste of opportunities to build mySelf in a constructive manner, with creative people who are supportive, not destructive or territorial (talking about Music here, I did have some very supportive friends in the FoF outside of music).
I think many of the artists could say the same. There was never any support from Robert or the FoF to be really creative artistically. I know artists, composers, musicians, etc who were told “It won’t be a part of the Ark, Dear” and that was that! Again, it is not that I believed it, it is that I missed the possibilities that, e.g., a truly working, supportive repertory company could have offered. It is what we could have been and could have done (the Utopic ideal, I suppose) that I regret. And I regret my passivity in accepting what was there.
I meant the Utopic Ideal above to apply, by the way, not just to the Arts, but to our lives.
Rushdie
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2007/11/salman_rushdie.html
brucelevy in response to:
94 Elena
You can’t “get them out”, without a lot of resentment, and appearing a bit off the wall. We can help them out, but they are the one’s who need to make a decision, in their own time.
The sad one will be the one’s who couldn’t make the decision, if and when it collapses, and they are left standing there looking at themselves (hopefully), with (as the saying goes) their dick in their hand.
——————————————————————————-
you are so right Bruce , I do not see a better way but for a student to be the initiator in leaving the Fellowship of Friends.
We cannot convince anyone unless they are ready to go.
We need to cut off the blood supply (students, money) to Robert Burton’s school. That is where I hope some kind of law enforcement will step in and close the whole place down. The true believers would remain in some sort of group as long as there are other members willing to continue the so called work.
Maybe isolation is the complete cure for these individuals who have been brainwashed. It could happen quite naturally overtime.
Lauralupa (121): Sorry for missing that comment.
“I put my best King of Hearts into the effort of writing and crafting the small booklet…”
____________________________
IMO, the best King of Hearts is no King of Hearts, after all, who would listen to a heart that believes that it’s ‘master’ is a round robin rotation of three diametrically opposed phenomenon, i.e., the (Jack, Queen, King) anyway?
Certainly there are categorical ‘headlines’ for certain ‘automatic’ emotional expressions, though, IMO, I would not label them before or after their manifestation, because no emotion is ever really ready to be judged as ‘finished business’, this or that static photograph…
Trying to be in the King of Hearts is exactly what? Are all emotions un-valid if not delivered with meditation and contemplation first? Trying is oftentimes simply the mind dominating the heart, which leads to heart disease and cardiac arrests: red meat, pigs feet, eggs and lard helps too.
Could a fiery emotion also be attributed, i.e., the precursor to the same self-fire that bears forth the phoenix from its ashes, that flies oneself out of preconceived habits and conundrums into the unknown, into feeling one’s center again?
Does not regret and simpleton-ness often turn to deep wisdom and conscious humiliation? Can not thinking before feeling or feeling about thinking lead to ‘clinical thinking’ about dirt that really has no opinion of mud?
Often we are too mysteriously comfortable with one another’s expression of negativity and thanks to people trying the be in their King of Hearts, while not really doing it anyway because they’re addicted to trying and feeling a self that’s identified with ‘never enough’ and the ‘end of the day saying “I am failing”‘, the drama continues unabated regardless of the trying, because there’s no inner-being to step up to the plate and go beyond ‘trying’…
the Fellowship of Friends is a perfect example of this disease of not doing, of not completing the octave of awakening, to honoring the only applicable future to the subject of their quest of awakening, that is, the right now:
to do, to be the words, to be without thought, without trying, to be and also try to stretch that being a bit further when one sees the opportunity or when it sees you are available for a house call.
the nut does have a clue that there are squirrels and birds interested in it’s fragile inner world, otherwise, it would not be so hard headed…
______________________
Elena,
IMO Graduates was warned plenty of times and curiously enough, by himself as well: when love’s not enough, either you move on or are moved on against your will, one way or another, God’s white blood cells are marching through us or over us, you can choose how smoothly that war goes or not, regardless, the cannons will be lit and pirates as well as proper parlor pals will loose eyes and limbs: still, love and the results and indications of its vacancies is all we really have at the end of the day to show, be shown, and see; if we did not, the sun would not keep rising and falling, just like love does.
__________________
Love to you all.
152 unoanimo
The KOH in the Fellowship is doing what RB says you should be doing. All else is wrong work of centers.
141 – Sharon
“Robert’s interest in classical music is shallow, pretentious, sentimental and quite uneducated!”
*******************
I suspect Robert Burton’s interest in most things is shallow, pretentious and uneducated.
143-145 – Bruce
I agree that hypnotist and/or black magician labels may both give robert burton more credit than he is due
The spiritual literature that I read and study, and the more I study the lives of the men who produced that literature, or who were responsible for it being produced, the more obvious it becomes that Robert Burton is not and was never an awakened being. Although I know nothing of Alex Horn personally, I think one can be fairly certain that he was not awakened either. There is that fairly sound idea that
“By their fruits ye shall know them”.
When you read of the violence and neglect of children that occurred in Horn’s school and you read of what has happened and is happening in Robert Burton’s school (the violence being of a different variety, but probably even more insidious and damaging), it is just obvious that these are not spiritual people. They may be people with a fair amount of power. They may even have a few paranormal powers and have a somewhat hypnotic effect on people and be able to experience altered states, and induce altered states in others. They may be able to see things in other people that most people do not have access to, but none of those things in and of itself imply awakening, and they certainly do not imply compassion or love.
I was not there, but was told of an incident where Robert did one of his ‘playing the fool’ ’shocks’, where he thew one of his Gucci loafers in the air outside of the lodge one evening. It got stuck in a branch of the tree. No less than 3 different students who did witness this, told me privately that there was no doubt in their mind that Robert became quite identified about getting his Gucci loafer out of that tree.
When you think that he said he did those ’shock’ things to help us poor, sleeping children awaken, and then he gets identified about his fucking shoe. I mean does this sound like a black magician or a polished hypnotist?
141 Sharon: “I suppose there might even be some great heavy metal out there somewhere…..”
There is indeed. Metal has numerous sub-genres these days. Personally I’m not keen on, for example, Norwegian death metal – it’s perturbing to know that the musicians actually kill people, they don’t just sing about it (many of them are in jail these days, where they continue to record).
“Math metal” has a definite charm, however, rather like a hellish version of the Peking Acrobats. It’s exceedingly complex and technically accomplished. Check out “Teeth of a Cogwheel” or “Cockroach En Fleur” from the Red Album by Baroness, if you’re interested.
Of course, anything would be an improvement on Pacherbel’s Canon and the Concerto De Araranjuez. On the other hand, I used to enjoy the sensory dissonance produced when dining at Apollo d”Oro with Beethoven’s 5th blaring out of the speakers.
152 – unoanimo
Beautiful and uplifting – thank you
Deleted — ES
157 – Survivor or ANYBODY
What is the site of this link, and how did my post get transferred there. I did not post there.
158 James McLemore
It’s Graduates’ great revenge. He just lifted the whole section. It’s more plagiarized speech than free speech. Doesn’t really matter. Wasn’t it expected?
A thought on recent firing of LT and KJ:
It looks like a typical witch hunt inside FOF’s inner circle.
This time it’s a political move by RB – to find someone guilty of “crimes” and prosecute them – thus to take attention away from his own persona. How convenient to blame someone else for “incorrect decisions”, “bad management”, “financial mistakes” etc – and to blame the current FOF crisis on others. Oh yes, Bob, we’re convinced – you’re so innocent! You did nothing but good, wise and kind things, and cared selflessly for others… And those witches.. they ruined it all!
Let’s now do some shuffling, prosecute a scapegoat or two, and see if the crowd gets fooled again. Show must go on!
This is a good lesson for these 2 women who spent their entire lives serving the selfish predator – this is what you get for your devotion. What goes around comes around. He threw you away like trash because this is what he does. He doesn’t care about anyone but himself.
May be you’ve been kissing a wrong ass after all.
I wish you good luck in finding a real job.
Joseph G. (around #134):
You said, “….. and Gurdjieff himself told the fable of the magician and the hypnotized sheep. Here’s a link to it:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Village/9888/Gstories.html”
—————————————————————————-
The story is not meant to refer to a cult leader and its members.
We, the whole of (sleeping) mankind, are the hypnotized sheep. The nature of our “hypnotic” state is explained in the Fourth Way literature (and also in other literature, but not nearly as simply and clearly, IMO).
The Magician is the “Moon”, that is, the forces of Nature that control and regulate the “reciprocal maintenance” (reciprocal “feeding”) of the great cosmos.
The point of the story is that, in the ordinary and usual course of things, it is our fate to end up involuntarily serving as “food for the Moon”.
That is where the story ends – a bleak and hopeless situation for mankind.
However, if we are able to shake ourselves out of our hypnotic state (awaken from our “sleep”), we then have the alternative possibility of voluntarily serving as “food for the Sun” and, in the process, can create an eternal soul for ourselves.
160 Purchasing awakening
I have a feeling LT will be back, in a different, better than ever incarnation. It’s happened before. She’s a loyalist. Bush would love her.
161 Still trying
Yeah, yeah, I know. But one doesn’t need to be hard pressed to see it apllies aptly here too, as a microcosmic replay of the whole shebang.
Hi Guys.
My present definition of hypnotism is to control the mind and behaviour of another person by modulating ones own voice and body language, also by manipulating the environment and sometimes interupting the established rhythm of events in different ways.
For example being told to sit in a different place to the one you are half way into for some more readily hypnotizable people is enough to put them into a more susceptible state. Also repetition plays a part as does inflection.
Many hypnotists use the induction method which uses a monotonous tone of voice with repetitive patterns, suggestion and progressive deepeners.
I hynotized a number of people using that method long before my fellowship days, before giving it up on moral grounds – I dont think its right to muck around with things we dont really know the full consequences of.
Unlike you know who!
In one sense we were all susceptible, (in the same way as a stage hynotist will ask his audience to link their fingers and then turn them round and put them above their heads, then suggest that they cant seperate them.
Those who immediately take their hands apart dont get taken onto the stage.) we were allready on stage, having been selected by one means or another as being accepting of the charade.
I dont think it was something willfully designed however, more just a succesfull ploy that he evolved over time.
Sorry…… but I think Robert Burton has or had, a number of areas of genius, one of them being as a sales person.
j x
161 Still trying
After all, it’s not a real school. It’s under the same laws as “life”.
164 jack
Would you buy a used car from that man?
I had someone tell me (when I was in the Fellowship) that she could tell students from non-students in the OH store by their blank stares as if they were ‘hypnotized’ (her words). I’m sure that’s not true for all students, but I don’t think this was a remark unique to this individual.
I once got fired from a job when I was in the Fellowship for being ‘weird’, because I didn’t react to many things as others did. I guess I was remembering myself!
Bruce.
No “cause I got wise, he’s the devil in disguise”
I meant more along the lines of making huge amounts of cash from selling next to nothing.
Like coke or popcorn.
I think another question would be, would you let your children be alone with him?
j x
Little Suzy,
when I was in FOF my coworkers also disliked me for what they said was condescending attitude and fake emotions.
I’ve heard remarks regarding FOF students like “acting like one is above others”, or even being “stuck-up snobs”. And, of course, “glassy-eyed people”.
There is definitely not much invisibility, or humility in FOF-style behavior…
FOF is run by a stuck-up hypocrite and his students end up adapting his faking act.
Bruce (around #163 and #165):
I thought it would be useful, at least for any interested newcomers, to know the meaning (to the extent that I am able to comprehend it) behind Gurdjieff’s allegorical story.
The story may have some parallels with RB and the FOF but I am not sure at all about the hypnotism angle that posters are presenting here.
I met RB once, at one of his dinners. Despite being, at the time, young and impressionable, I had no sense (then or now) that anything RB said or did during the course of that evening could be construed as hypnotism. It may be instead that RB was just very good at identifying the psychological weaknesses of people (both in general and vis a vis individual members of the FOF) and then took advantage of them.
170 Still trying
I understand, and agree.
170 still trying.
without the ” just” I agree with the thought ” that RB was just very good at identifying the psychological weaknesses of people (both in general and vis a vis individual members of the FOF) and then took advantage of them.”
He even told me that directly once.
What is Charisma?
When I say hypnotism I dont mean the kind where you run around squawking like a chicken or laying an egg.
I mean something far more subtle.
The kind where you buy a product without questioning why.
Also he seems to do the opposite of the Gurdjieff analogy by convincing his followers that they are sheep.
j x
From Wikipedia:
The word charisma (from the Greek word χάρισμα (kharisma), “gift” or “divine favor,” from kharizesthai, “to favor,” from kharis, “favor”: see also charism, Charis) refers to a rare trait found in certain human personalities usually including extreme charm and a ‘magnetic’ quality of personality and/or appearance along with innate and powerfully sophisticated personal communicability and persuasiveness. Though very difficult or even impossible to define accurately (due to a lack of widely accepted criteria in regard to the trait), charisma is often used to describe an (elusive, even undefinable) personality trait that often includes the seemingly ’supernatural’ or uncanny ability to lead, charm, persuade, inspire, and/or influence people. It refers especially to a quality in certain people who easily draw the attention and admiration (or even hatred if the application of such charisma is perceived to be negative) of others due to a ‘magnetic’ quality of personality and/or appearance. Similar terms/phrases related to charisma include: grace, exuberance, equanimity, mystique, positive energy, joie de vivre, extreme charm, personal magnetism, personal appeal, “electricity,” and allure, among many others[1]. Usually many of these specific qualities must be present within a single individual for the person to be considered highly charismatic by the public and their peers.
Despite the strong emotions they so often induce in others, charismatic individuals generally project unusual calmness, confidence, assertiveness, dominance, authenticity, and focus, and almost always possess superb communication and/or oratorical skills. Although the etymology of the word (“divine gift”) might suggest that charisma can’t be acquired, and despite the persistent inability to accurately define or even fully understand the concept, it is believed that charisma can be taught and/or learned (through hypnosis for example). Others [Who?] disagree with this assertion and maintain that it is an inborn trait and that it cannot be learned, taught, or ‘gained.
I would add that charisma does not have to be used only for personal gain, nor would it always be considered “evil” or “bad”. It’s is just, perhaps, an innate ability to influence people and inspire love.
170 Still Trying
‘It may be instead that RB was just very good at identifying the psychological weaknesses of people (both in general and vis a vis individual members of the FOF) and then took advantage of them.’
Isn’t this a good example of ’spitual abuse’?
I mean what were his intentions, mainly. Seems to me that RB used us all to his advantage, and continues to do so.
I have to agree with James 154, ‘it is just obvious that these are not spiritual people.’
Why couldn’t I see this earlier in the game?
What was it in me that was originally attracted to the fof, and even after the exodus of many good friends in those early days, why couldn’t I act on my suspicions that what I was participating in was a large scale ‘con game’?
Spiritual-sorry!
174. A Tiger.
did someone “convince” you that you were not a tiger but a sheep?
j x
Bruce: “Same goes for the use of “black magician”. WE know what it means, and it’s initial use by G, but others don’t. We should be aware of how what we say here could be misunderstood by visitors.”
The kind of black magician I meant was your common garden variety type, as in the wikipedia description. I don’t know what Gurdjieff said about black magicians. I didn’t read that much Gurdjieff. So thanks for that. I do want to make myself clear what I meant.
Graduates.
What kind of program is that you are using to transfer stuff from this blog directly on to yours?
Or are you pasting it all manually?
Thanks for the nick name jack off.
Grad u hates. good luck greg.
jackoff.
169 Purchasing Awakening
There is definitely not much invisibility, or humility in FOF-style behavior…
_______________________________________________
While in the Fellowship I went back to school. I dressed in a three-piece suit and tie, custom-made shirts, etc, using my gold fountain pen, while surrounded by students in t-shirts and jeans. I imagined I was simply being “refined.” About as invisible as when “it” would order a “Seven Ascending” during the “I” and “up” exercises.
178 jack
I would suggest going to Graduates’ site for a response.
Nice little article on how cognitive dissonance operates:
http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/10/how-and-why-we-lie-to-ourselves.php
Sheik–
Here is an article about what you can do about “website hijacking”.
http://lorelle.wordpress.com/2006/04/10/what-do-you-do-when-someone-steals-your-content/
“Dew is condensed starlight”.
130 Suzy Thank you for your story on what it is like to get involved with a lawyer and Tiger (137), for your thoughts and Bruce, for your love.
Good to see you here Sharon.
Interesting things that you like to give your opinion on Uno. We’ve been sharing this space for seven months and you’re one of the few people I distinguish. Most of the others are invisible, odd names. It is an interesting exercise. What does it feel like when someone opens up to you completely naked and you only look at the shoes under the chair?
Thank you Cake for your moment. It is lovely to find you here again. Your coded and impersonal language is more universal than most of what I’ve said. I’d like to learn from you.
……………
“You think you’re repeating the same thing but you’re not. Everyday you’re a different person. The moon part is repetitive but not the free part”.
” ” From a course with D. Klocek.
So Graduates has been banished to Guatanamo (praise be to Allah!) and Fat Boy and surrogates have lost interest. What’s left?
Mostly some kindly, well-intentioned people who left the FoF 10 – 20 yrs ago.
As someone who left recently I find this rather perturbing. Will I still be obsessed with the FoF in 10-20 yrs time? I sincerely hope not, but maybe I overestimate myself.
I was searching for an analogy, and the best I could come up with was Pete Best, the drummer who was replaced in the Beatles by Ringo Starr and whose life was subsequently defined by the fact that he wasn’t the drummer for the Beatles.
The current bloggers are not quite like this, however, in that PB (ahem) defined himself by something he admired but missed out on and current bloggers are defined by something they despise.
Is this all there is?
“He understood that things were exactly what they were. It seemed more than he could bear.”
Thomas Pynchon
PS the icons are really cool.
I suppose Survivor is Graduates by any other name, and smells as sweet. I went over to get an update on his site. He claims it is ‘getting more hits than the Sheik’s blog’, and maybe it is, who knows, there is no counter. He has invested his time wisely, copying posts from this page, entry by entry, and inventing new names for the authors, few of them complimentary. Mine is, “Always Ready To Explode”. Others include, “Formatory Fuckers, T-Bone Penguins, Uncircumcised Navigation, Dripping from a Dead Dog’s Eye, Drop Dead Stupid, Jackoff, and Nappy Headed Hoe”.
He claims, “This site is offered as an alternative, always open, Fellowship discussion blog. Uncensored (as long as on topic and not too offensive), no personality from the moderator, all sides of the issue are welcome, unmoderated (posts are real time). The site is operated by an ex-fellowship member.”
…yet the entire site offers nothing but personality from the moderator!
Graduates does offer original, thoughtful comments interspersed with what he has lifted. Gems such as, “In case anyone is wondering if these people are serious about this whining, they are. They are finally out of the insane unreality of a lunatic cult and they spend their time whining about their choice to stay there for up to 30 years. This is how they imagine they will salvage themselves. Yes, they are still insane”.
You know, the usual.
So, folks, knowing this may save you a trip to his site.
184 Nuthead
I can’t speak for anyone besides myself. To me the discussion here is contextual. For me, outside the blog, my life is very far from what occurs here. I see it as a forum where previously enforced secrets are now made visible in the hope that the current FOF status quo will be interrupted.
I doubt you will be obsessed in 20 years. But if someone comes to you, in twenty years, to hear what you know, because they are considering entering a closed “spiritual group” will you keep your mouth closed so as not to appear obsessed? Or will you look at it from a wider viewpoint?
184 Nuthead
Thinking about it, I think I define myself by everything that has come before, and maybe even by the things that are to come also.
Jack wrote: “When I say hypnotism I don’t mean the kind where you run around squawking like a chicken or laying an egg. I mean something far more subtle. The kind where you buy a product without questioning why.”
I’m glad someone defined it so clearly.
I don’t know whether or not Burton is a master at it, but he definitely understands that people are easier to manipulate when they are in the hypnotic state that Jack describes above. As he wrote, it’s subtle. You can feel it during dinners, concerts, and meetings — especially those quiet moments (to name just one example) where everyone is sitting there and staring across the room for a few minutes, or a few seconds. The usual explanation is that everyone is “being present” and “dividing attention” — and to a limited amount I actually liked those moments and appreciated them — but only occasionally. Most of the time those moments of silence were pretentious, overly dramatic, unnatural, and imbalanced. It happened so often that it became an extreme — a cliche.
In my opinion the words hypnotism and hypnotic both apply, whether it’s an effect that was intentional or otherwise.
At the same time, I appreciate the counterpoint on the topic, and I understand why someone might be concerned about the use of the word because of the usual associations with “squawking chickens”, dramatic performances on stage, and so on.
But I think most people “here” agree… Hypnotic, trance-like, or whatever you might call it, we were being manipulated.
The Neverending fight between the King of Club and Stearwd…
Round 1 : World 12
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=xRA3-NsIda0
..the King of Club and Steward..
I am not sure we really know what happened with LT and KJ (if really something happened).
I don’t want the blog to be a source of false information, it is too precious!
Please write only facts you are sure about them.
Thank you, friends
Well, Graduates is still banned from here, I will periodically be deleting anything that he manages to squeeze through onto the blog. If by any chance something gets through again, please do ignore it. It won’t stay long.
Sometimes some children do deserve a little spanking.
I would like to repost this post from Joe Average, for me it really touch the core of the ‘problem’ inside Robert Burton teaching..,
thank you Joe ..(I would like to meet you…)
From JOE AVERAGE
Students speak of lifting the veil of imagination to reach presence. Others say that presence is perpetually available and cannot be lost, but can be veiled by identification with the ego. What is the difference? Only the FOF sense of relentless efforting and a very personal identity implied in its terminology and goals.
It seems that it is Robert Burton’s need to see himself as a messiah, as a very definitely separate individual who will retain that individuality through all eternity that spoils all the interpretations of the Sufis, Gnostics, Buddha, Shankara, Milarepa etc. The total dissolution of individual identity that is implied again and again in nearly all of the contemplative traditions within the world’s religions cannot be made to co-exist entirely with such an orientation of individuality, no matter how much Robert homogenates, bleaches and edits their writings into effortlessly digestible sound bites. And so now roughly 1700 mostly sincere students struggle daily to perform the truly impossible: to simultaneously abandon “all I’s”, all concepts, yet retain an imaginary concept of individuality: to invest their identity stepwise in 6 terse commands from a purely conceptual separate steward to a purely conceptual lower self, then…..? A leap into the “four wordless breaths” which promise the possibility of a timeless, wordless existence, but which, they are told, is a personal reward from discrete, discarnate immortal individuals to their unique, individual existence and helps make that individuality immortal. Sort of like chaining 6 cannonballs to your legs and then jumping into the ocean to experience weightlessness.
It does not seem that all that much has changed in the experience of the Fellowship of Friends over the years. Robert Burton has always had parts of his psychology that genuinely wish to honour evolution, his own and that of his students. He has also had, from the inception, very major problems with accepting himself and his past that have resulted in deception, obsession and megalomania.
The patchwork system of ideas, primarily taken from Ouspensky and Collin served well in studying human psychology. The tricks of the guru trade taken from Alex Horn helped build social and power structures. The conflicts created by Burton’s deceptions served to disrupt more subtle patterns of identification, such as identification with justice and logic. Burton’s vision of himself as a benign and loving person softened the edges of his rampant greed, in public at least, and helped create an atmosphere of external beauty. The “system” as Burton presented it was largely accidental in its origin, confused and creative in its application. Within the mosaic of the organization, very different goals and possibilities discordantly co-existed, both among the various students and within the psychology of their teacher. What made the Fellowship a place of spiritual growth was never its “teacher”, nor its power structures, nor any “higher influences”, nor even the core philosophies and techniques. When it worked, it worked by mutual consent and students found fulfilment in consensual validation and in the synergy of their explorations. A large group of people agreed to experiment together toward an ill-defined aim that seemed better than what mainstream life experiences seemed to offer. The external form allowed that mutual experiment to blossom. As long as students were sincere and open, personal growth and discovery were possible. Essentially the Fellowship was only a place where people occasionally gave each other permission to exist for reasons of spiritual growth. The sincerity of its students was always its greatest strength. The fact that its head, as passionate in his darkness as in his light, created an atmosphere of such relentless deception and predation as to eventually force all sincere students who looked it full in the face to leave, was always its greatest weakness.
Understanding this need not be depressing or frightening, but empowering. If it was your sincere wish to grow and experience truth that created the Fellowship, then that cannot be taken from you. You cannot be “released” from that by others, you will not be punished on any plane of reality other than within your own concepts, you cannot “lose the School”. If you still have that wish, you take it with you wherever and however you experience your life. If you no longer have that wish, well, $6000 to $20,000 a year in dues and side costs for a social club seems a bit steep, so please enjoy yourself.
#
In the ” Theatah Daahling ” We used to have a saying that the best director was either a very good one, or a very bad one.
If very good then it follows that the play would be good.
But the very bad director sometimes ended up with a very well executed play too, because the cast were forced to work as an ensemble.
j x
As the final step of the sequence of actions directed to force Troy,
“Burton told Troy that he would talk to him after he died using the same soft voice he used at the time”.
In which state Burton push Troy, and for which purpose? Imagine Mr. Burton saying such a thing. “I will talk to you after you die, using exactly this voice”.
This sentence is not just a charming quotation from Rumi, Goethe or Whitman, nor an unverifiable message from the Gods. This sentence (this lie) means “open your deepest part of yourself to me – accept me as God”. I cannot fully understand how it operates, but I fill that this sentence operates in a hypnotic manner. The other sentences too, but this one at a higher level.
Maybe hypnotizer is not the right definition. Maybe sorcerer fits better. In any case he plays to get the ordinary mind puzzled, confused. He’s an artist, in this field. There is a criminal intelligence in him that makes him able to arrive to a very deep part of the self, a part where we lack defences. He is a master in deceiving people.
The PL incident, if you would give it a name, is a definite Paradise Lost* story, followed by a PR incident, as in Paradise Regained* (or Public Relations (nightmare), if you will).
*Paradise Lost
and
Paradise Regained
by John Milton
Recent conversations with said person (P.L.) seemed to agree and support this assessment:
According to
Fellowship of Friends:
‘PL lost his marbles.’
What really happened,
among other things:
‘PL found his conscience.’
Conscience for marbles
(plus x number of years)?
Good price to pay.
(Don’t leave home without it.)
One of the significant differences that the PL play has from many other recent departures is: Most others had some means by which to depart; except perhaps for the religious visa holders. PL was a career (read: fixed for life) salaried staffer, that worked through the ranks over the years. That person had little or no means to leave, but left anyway, as it was imperative to their spiritual development (not possible in FoF).
To almost anyone in the Fellowship of Friends, that must really seem insane.
To almost anyone who has awakened, or glimpsed it, there was no other action possible.
(As Bonita, student number 2 after RB, was once reported to have said (paraphrased), RB is really more about keeping students asleep all the while convincing them that they are working toward awakening; hypnotized sheep.
Sheep (Newspeak) say,
‘Four legs good!
Two legs baaaad!
Sequins good!
G. & O. baaaad!’)
PL did not, and does not (at time contacted), read this blog, nor the Greater Fellowship site. So, these were not even factors.
The psychic network is much more effective.
Ring!, Ring!, Ring!,
what’s that I hear?
The psychic network ringing?
Must be a long distance ‘collect’ call.
(Reach out and touch someone.)
(PL looks like a genuine diamond in the rough.)
[Teacher says,
'Every time a bell rings
an angel gets his wings.'
ZuZu
Remember, no man is a failure if he has friends.
Thanks for the wings,
Love, Clarence.
Clarence P. Oddbody
Angel Second Class
From the film:
It’s a Wonderful Life]
Wishing you well, PL!
This, of course, is all hypothetical and/or
my opinion of what may,
or may not,
have happened.
Wouldn’t You Like To Know
Pensate un attimo 193
Thanks for reposting (and thanks to Joe, of course). Very well stated. Definitely, the work ideas as presented in the Fellowship contain enough contradictions to make real spiritual growth “truly impossible”.
As a student, in spite of my spiritual and psychological naivete, I could never relate to the idea of becoming a “conscious being” as presented by Robert Burton, because on some level I perceived the conundrum so clearly explained in Joe’s post.
Being around students nourished my desire to become less mechanical, more aware, but the ideal of the Burtonian conscious man seemed to lack compassion and purpose beyond glorification of himself and his chosen few, and no relationship to higher worlds except on a very selfish and superstitious basis.
At first I saw my objections to the School as a personal limitation and one of the reasons why I wasn’t making more progress towards awakening. After all, like most of you must have felt, who was I to judge? But towards the end it became clear that I had no real interest in the Fellowship’s particular brand of “consciousness”.
I remember an uplifting conversation with a friend who was also in the process of leaving. We finally admitted to each other that we did not care to become higher beings separated from humanity, and that if given the choice we would rather be doomed to suffer Armageddon with the rest of them than survive in an ark of self-serving, unfeeling men #4, 5, 6 and 7.
A Certain Man
A certain man wishes to be a prince
Of this earth; he also wants to be
A saint and master of the being-world.
Conscience cannot exist in the first:
The second cannot exist without conscience.
Therefore he, who has enough conscience
To be disturbed but not enough to be
Compelled, can neither reject the one
Nor follow the other…
Jean Toomer
Last Verse “When the Ship Comes In” Words & Music by Bob Dylan. (Think of it as a drunken sailors song.)
“Oh the foes will rise
With the sleep still in their eyes
And they’ll jerk from their beds and think they’re dreamin’.
But they’ll pinch themselves and squeal
And know that it’s for real,
The hour when the ship comes in.
Then they’ll raise their hands,
Sayin’ we’ll meet all your demands,
But we’ll shout from the bow your days are numbered.
And like pharaoh’s tribe,
They’ll be drownded in the tide,
And like Goliath, they’ll be conquered.”
Psychotic people are very GOOD in identifying the weakness in others. Some “clubs” too…..
Psychotic people in institutions will be sedated fast.
Robert Burton takes some pills?
On another note!
Robert gives out paradoxical communications. He will teach us to be present and have trust in the moment and the next thing, is that he will request more money, more efforts, more rules.
July Cameron quotes this as an aspect of a “crazy maker” and to run as fast as you can from those “crazy makers”. They cause trouble…
Yes, why we did not see this, years ago…?
Now we see it, I guess time was the factor.
We did not have a blog at that time…., the time was not ripe?
Humbling yes, very humbling.
184 Nuthead
As someone who left recently I find this rather perturbing. Will I still be obsessed with the FoF in 10-20 yrs time? I sincerely hope not, but maybe I overestimate myself.
———————-
Nuthead, I can’t speak for others, but I’ve gone long periods of time without even thinking about the fellowship of friends. As Bruce said, it’s contextual.
I won’t deny that it was an impactful experience, and occasionally things come along that stir the pot, but in between it has been part of the background.
You may find that it takes longer to unwind from the experience than you think it should, but I’ll bet you won’t be obsessed in 10-20 years.
Laura “We finally admitted to each other that we did not care to become higher beings separated from humanity, and that if given the choice we would rather be doomed to suffer Armageddon with the rest of them than survive in an ark of self-serving, unfeeling men #4, 5, 6 and 7.”
ditto for me. that was the tipping point for me – the separation part. Plus the mangling of the 4th way to the point of grotesqueness. And all the ’saved’ part and how great everything is because it is so refined (which, you know, it is not actually – the art experiences in the fellowship of friends are pitiful compared with real life) There is a fire in not separating from other human beings and opening attitudes. I have been not only not disappointed but overjoyed since leaving the fellowship of friends and it started from that place of being horribly humbled.
Hi Sheik, how do I send you an email? KA
ak0aka0ka
You can find the sheik’s email by going to the “about” page. There’s a tab for it at the top of the page.
Bruce, Kathleen.
Thanks for the replies.
BTW does anyone know a recommendable psychiatrist in the Nevada City area?
184 Nuthead
As someone who left recently I find this rather perturbing. Will I still be obsessed with the FoF in 10-20 yrs time? I sincerely hope not, but maybe I overestimate myself.
——————————————————————
NT, when I left the Fellowship of Friends more than 10 years ago, for a while I just wanted to talk about it and have lengthy discussions with ex members until exhaustion.
This practice later became redundant with bits of gossip here and there when available.
Most of the time I did not think about the FOF and had just a few dreams about being in the school and RB.
Earlier this year I discovered the blog and realized I did not process properly the experience and never rationalized it well.
Reading about other people stories I discovered more information about the abuse of power, I felt anger, sadness, compassion, etc., and am still learning a lot from other people’s thinking process.
There is also another aspect which is the group healing that hopefully is taking place here and the support we can give each others.
It is much more powerful when we are recognized by people who had a similar experience. We have a chance to heal and hopefully this witnessing extends beyond the blog as a warning about gurus, teachers and spiritual authorities.
I am also very interested to follow the fate of the FOF and sincerely hope it will be shut down not only for personal reason, but also because I feel new students joining should have a lot more information than what I had which was basically nothing, except for some of my gut feelings I did not listen too well.
(ever heard about the Canons? will someone here kindly explain again what they are and why we should have read them before joining? Thanks)
184 Nuthead
I think the main reason I’m at present obsessing about the Fellowship through this blog is that I was not able to entirely access the experience when I left 13 years ago…
I just moved on to other things without first taking a good look at what had just happened. I wasn’t ready to unravel the thread that had led me into and consequently out of that labyrinth.
My first priorities were of a very practical nature. Then came the searching for new answers, new methods, possibly a new cosmology. I needed to regenerate, find a new sense of myself, a new sense of purpose. I so much wanted for things to make sense again. It has been a slow process and a difficult enterprise. But very rewarding. Finally, you have no idea how beautiful it was for me to suddenly happen upon these pages and find myself, reflected back so clearly for the very first time…. A truly moving experience.
And this place is so good for all the people who are leaving right now, it’s an immense help, and I believe you will not have to wait so long to come to terms with the experience… You have been showered with gifts of tools and information. The doors are opening wide, the light is shining through.
Finally released from years of silence, the Fellowship desaparecidos are singing their songs of love and freedom, as all revolutionaries do. It’s quite a small scale process in relation to the planet, but still… I am very happy to be part of it.
The dust settles heavily,
the air becomes stale,
the light dim in the room
that we are not prepared to leave
at any moment
Dag Hammarskjold
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=MHNAFRg6jYA
testing avatar
204 – Lauralupa
Thanks for ‘The Be Good Tanyas’
Never heard of them before – I like them
204 – Lauralupa
Also that was a very nice post. I wish when I left the school almost 30 years ago there had been a blog like this. Of course PC’s hadn’t been invented yet, but it was a tough time and it took me a while to reorientate myself to the world, and to find that ‘new sense of purpose’ and ‘new sense of myself’ that you spoke of. Interesting that even after all that time, I still feel a bit healed by coming here.
206 James McLemore
Actually home computers started to come to the fore fairly strongly in 78-79. But no regular blogs.
207 – Bruce
Wow – I guess I was probably just a bit tech ignorant and behind the time. I remember my ex-wife getting one of those Apple green screens back in about ‘82 and then something to actually get on the Web with in about ‘85. We were further behind the ‘times’ than I realized.
204 Laura Lupa
“…Finally released from years of silence, the Fellowship desaparecidos are singing their songs of love and freedom, as all revolutionaries do…”
—————————————————————-
I love the above passage Laura!
The “desaparecidos” did not disappear into a black hole…
Finding one’s true song is the most healing discovery and life long path.
I propose we write a poem on this! or find a poem.
Have you also by any chance been swamped with synchronicities?
Rain bird, laughing in the olive tree, la la dee dah
Colored shirt, with the alabaster altarpiece, you gave to me
Summer sweet, some forgiven
Your advice is all that seems to matter much to me
Call it sweet, call it something paradise
Is it the right word you designed for me?
Is it the broken word or good advice i need?
Is the half as sweet set aside for me?
Is it mysterious? is it something ripe and sweet?
Snowbird, your sister said she needed me, la la dee dah
Show them first, show them what you did for me, la la dee dah
Quiet sound, and little soldier sent beneath
And epaulets that covered every shoulder
Call it sweet come take
Forget the things I said, to please
Is it the right word you designed for me?
Is it the broken word or good advice i need?
Is the tapestry set beneath my wings?
Is it mysteroius, glorious? Indeed.
Don’t stop, don’t break
You can delight because you have a place
Quiet room, I need you now
Is it the right word?
Is it the broken word?
Is it the tapestry?
Is it the majesty?
Is it the right word?
Is it the broken word?
Is it the tapestry?
Is it the majesty?
Don’t stop, don’t break
You can delight because you have a place
(x5)
Quiet room, i need you now…
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=O1fpD5RE6Mg
There is another reason (among many) for former members of the fellowship of friends to participate in this blog. The criticism has been leveled that ex members are stuck and it shows a weakness of character/being to still engage with something that is in the past. Maybe there is some truth to that. But, of course one could say life makes people stuck. The blog can be a tool to re-menber. To look back, reassess, re-evaluate, and untie identification in the deeper layers of psyche.
IMO, one can’t start that process of loosening identification until there is something to loosen and that process is itself a process of building being. Mature being, not immature. The ’stuck’ criticism is like a little child talking to an adult about, say, finances.
When I re-investigate, I ‘claim’ parts of myself that I ignored when I left. That was useful then because I just needed to move on with the light in my particular life. So, now I get to ‘re-member’ myself – bring parts of myself back together. The fellowship of friends was not the only place for that in my life – did that with earlier family, and lovers and friends and livelihood and philosophical interests, and now my life has not just gone on in a linear way but in a more dimensional way.
I also like the blog because it is a metaphor for the macrocosm and is an interesting beast.
I’m not ‘obsessed’ with my family either, but damn, since I am making the Thanksgiving feast for 18 people, including some very particular teenagers, I should start to get obsessed.
203 veramente
Very nicely articulated. like your entire post.
About your question regarding the “canons” (for those who haven’t seen it), see archive.org, enter veronicapoe in the Search field at the top, click Go, and then scroll to the bottom of the page. It’s 48 pages.
Nothing shocking in the document at first glance, but here’s a short passage from it:
“The Fellowship recognizes both the spiritual primacy of the Teacher and his mediatorship by virtue of which Higher Forces reveal their will regarding the Fellowship principally through him. He is the leader in realizing the practical aspects of the spiritual work and mission of the Fellowship. The Teacher’s role is unique. The Teacher may name his deputy or his successor, or indicate the means by which his successor may be chosen.”
Later in the document…
“It is through his specialty that a teacher creates the conditions and influences that promote the development of consciousness. In addition, the teacher trusts Higher Forces to reveal to him the direction that his specialty must take.”
One thing that’s lacking in the document is any method for “removing” Burton — not that anyone in the fof (to my knowledge) has ever seriously tried to do it. But the document discusses many details for the process of removing any of the “ministers,” but the idea of removing Burton is obviously off limits. Not a surprise, but I think the reality leaves more of an impression when you see it in writing.
At the very end of the canons, we have the beautiful passage from Walt Whitman.
I dream’d in a dream I saw a city invincible to the attacks of the whole of the rest of the earth,
I dream’d that was the new city of Friends,
Nothing was greater there than the quality of robust love, it led the rest.
It was seen every hour in the actions of the men of that city,
And in all their looks and words.
One of the choices we had each and every day as members of the Fellowship of Friends…
Was Walt Whitman referring to us, or someone or something like us?
Or was he referring to someone or something entirely different than us? Or to a potential “us” that never came to be?
Since consciousness has many bodies…
Me, too, for the light!
Me, too, for the fresh air, the freedom!
Me, too, for the fiendship!
Me, too…
Laura,
Thanks for turning the blog on to the Be Good Tanyas! I just ordered Blue Horse from Amazon. Everyone with an ear for roots-y Americana with a twist should give them a listen. They shoot straight from the heart.
Hello, Nuthead (#25-184),
Yes, this is all there is, right here and now. I’d say it is more a question of what you want to make of it. Have you looked through all the previous posts? If you do, daunting though that may be, you’ll see the blog goes “up and down” (that being very subjective!) as various topics come along and generate more or less heat.
Perhaps you have only just come across the blog? Had you previously heard that is was exciting, or destructive, or enlightening? If you are disappointed, I wonder what you were expecting?
I contribute for several reasons. It helps me digest the experience, helps me learn from others, and it may be now or in the future, provide a service for others who need information or answers as they struggle with the same problems.
What did you learn from your experience? Why did you leave? What was the process? Would you have done things differently in hindsight? How do you feel about the friends you have left behind? What do think about the Fourth Way now? About Burton’s interpretation of it? What would you have liked to have known before you joined?
For me, the personal recollections, reflections and stories are what bring life and meaning to the blog. Are you willing to share yours?
183 ~ Elena ~
You wrote ~
“What does it feel like when someone opens up to you completely naked and you only look at the shoes under the chair?”
_________________________
Elena,
When you say “you only”, to me, my friend at a too comfortable of a distance to make eye contact, you are making a very broad sweep (once again) with your Gauguin brush, very presumptuous, very cold, very Fellowship of Friends; I sense you are looking for trouble and I am not going to give it to you, that’s pretty much it for now, drama shop somewhere else Elena, with Graduates gone, I understand that there are some people out there still addicted to the ‘protagonist/antagonist’ thingy, thanks, but no thanks…
BTW, if a naked confession-er spies me glancing at their shoes under the chair, it’s because I’ve noticed that they’ve exchanged their shoes for mine, a truly brave and loving thing to do, after all, the ‘Travel in an Indians shoes’ parable applies profoundly to my life these days; presumptuousness does not.
Here’s some news for scale and relativity ~
In the last week in Oregon House there has been one suicide by a Russian via The Fellowship of Friends, one automotive death of a 27 year old daughter of an Ex- Fellowship of Friends student, taking place at the turn off going towards The Fellowship of Friends, the wreck occurred after a Fellowship of Friends member let her drive although he said she should not, etc. Not to mention another ambulance, followed by a fire truck and three police cars and another siren traveler last night…
Now, couple this with a few nervous breakdowns, a jailing here and there, a few divorces and a trail of court orders, mix, (don’t puree) and Chill girl.
_________________
L.T.Y.A.
Uno, you are my hero.
I never told you, nor ever thanked you.
So here I am giving THANKS to you
while we are heading towards thanks giving
Dream Catcher ~
Thank you. The weight of a single fingerprint left behind is all that separates us all from being “one hand clapping”.
:.)
Dear Suzy and Bruce,
Been thinking about your posts on why it is that we don’t find a decent lawyer and sue the Fellowship for fraud, deceit, abuse and lying and as much as I appreciate both of you I cannot agree that you present valid reasons to not consider this further. I nevertheless respect you enough to not be disturbed by disagreeing with your point of view and hope you are also not disturbed. It is a very personal decision.
It makes me wonder though how many students will actually sleep soundly for the rest of their lives knowing they did not take legal action against the Fellowship of Friends because it was, in the end, too much of a bother.
I wonder if many exstudents are actually on the blog even after thirty years, precisely because they still cannot sleep soundly knowing that it continues to function mostly unperturbed.
It is not the case of the many that can sincerely say, I was not badly harmed by Robert Burton or the Fellowship of Friends to feel enough of a legitimate impulse to take it to court, although I am willing to support, or not even, those who do feel they need to take it to court.
I personally feel the most damage the Fellowship of Friends ever did to me was that its idea of biological families had just enough of an influence for me to leave my younger daughter with her father when she was eleven years old. Just that, has caused nine years of tremendous suffering for both her and me. It would not have even occured to me if I hadn’t been influenced enough.
The other damages to me personally, the loss of self esteem for being a second hand citizen psychologically disfigured, still have a great impact on my social interactions.
Yes, I think I have enough personal claims against the Fellowship to have a case, one of those in which they end up paying before it goes to court. But if I were to pursue such case and still see the Fellowship continue functioning I would not be happy with the result, especially if I had to sign that I had no further claims on the Fellowship of Friends.
The fact is that I will not feel at ease for as long as I know that innocent people are joining the Fellowship and that they are slowly being put under a long term training in which they will be vulnerable enough to give up such fundamental aspects of their integrity as their family, children and friends, besides their very self.
The speed with which the blog moves from one issue to another tends to undermine the real issues. Whining no matter for how long, is no solution. If we cannot put together a serious suit against the Fellowship of Friends, I will certainly feel that we have failed and move on with that knowledge.
Reconstructing our lives is one aspect of the blog and I am very grateful to all of you who have been here while I struggle to recover the pieces.
Leaving the Fellowship of Friends untouched after knowing everything we know is like leaving a concentration camp functioning because we are not willing to make enough of an effort together to have it closed.
The Fellowship of Friends may not be a nazi concentration camp to kill jews but it is a concentration camp to brainwash people to give themselves up and support a depraved group of people. Many of us who have left or been thrown out are half what we were when we joined. We are not dead but we have certainly been diminished by at least fifty percent of our potential and will have great difficulty in adapting to regular social conditions, no matter how strong we are.
There is not one valid reason to not legally pursue the closure of the Fellowship of Friends. If anyone has any, please put them forward and help me understand the contrary.
The possibility of sharing, reconstructing and even playing together, is open to the end of time and we can put a hundred sights to look at each others beauty and learn from each other’s songs, tell and retell our sufferings if we wish and scream with pain and courage about what we’ve been through.
I personally have no longer the need to scream although someone could easily get me to do so. Any further screaming from me would be unnecessary suffering and I will not beg any further to find people responsible enough to do what is necessary.
It is no less shocking to find exstudents unwilling to take serious legal action against the Fellowship of Friends than to find still students unable to take serious action against Robert Burton and his practices. It is shocking to realize that we are just not serious enough people and will continue to get conned life after life because we were not willing to stop it. Interesting karma but one I would rather not be a part of. Hiding from one’s self for the rest of this life trying to forget that one simply let it be because the paperwork and the lawyer and the great amount of work was too much for one to deal with.
To what extent do individuals still struggle with their inner ambitions to not be able to pull themselves above and give the one and only blow that will take the Fellowship of Friends down for once and for all?
Perhaps it is just that most of you were not married to Girard Haven. If the Fellowship of Friends closed thanks in any percentage to my struggle against it, I would be the first to come and look into his eyes and let him know that I finally accomplished to love him enough and free him from what I am convinced hurt him so badly. I would look at each student inside and Robert Burton with the same eyes and feel that my time in the Fellowship of Friends was not wasted. I would help cut the head off the Fellowship of Friends and feel great pride for having been able to participate, for having the honor of stopping an institution that hurt me and many around me, so very much.
What is it in people that finds no pride in cutting off the head of the dragon and opt to doubt? Are we so confused that we no longer know who is the dragon? That we call for revenge but then cannot give the blow without it? One does not need to feel revenge to take the garbage out of one’s house.
Elena,
For some of us leaving these days, perhaps it is partly that we feel responsible for the FoF. After all, it met some need in us or we would not have been there, or at least not for so long. To sue would feel rather hypocritical. It is as if we would be suing ourselves. Those still in are not that different from us, only maybe even a little slower to give up and get out.
“Give up” in the last sentence above is maybe the wrong flavor – how about “acknowledge the truth”.
Hi Elena,
I haven’t followed the discussion very closely related to a lawsuit, or lawsuits. But I strongly suggest (assuming you haven’t already done this) that you do some research on which lawyers have some expertise in the area of cult abuse (not AG, of course), and then see what they say about it. First consultations are usually free of charge.
Before you do this, surfing through some of the websites that specialize in cult abuse might be a good place to start (rickross.org and freedofmind.com, and others). Maybe nothing will come of it, or maybe something will. But the effort of talking to some people who really understand what’s possible may give you some peace of mind that you tried.
You make some good points about the blog: “It makes me wonder though how many students will actually sleep soundly for the rest of their lives knowing they did not take legal action against the Fellowship of Friends because it was, in the end, too much of a bother.”
But I think if all someone does is spread the truth (as you have done), they’ve done quite a bit. It’s helping to enlighten ME quite a bit — page by page — and I’m hoping it’s doing the same for our friends who are still in the Fellowship. I compare the blog to what’s often referred to as the Fourth Estate…
“The term Fourth Estate refers to the press, both in its explicit capacity of advocacy and in its implicit ability to frame political issues.”
Of course, we don’t have an army of journalists chasing “the story,” but we do have some people who are digging for the truth in their own ways, and I believe the discussion is having positive results, and will continue to as long as it’s here. And I sense that’s how you feel, too, or you wouldn’t be here, but that you also want something more — you want real healing, and real, positive change.
Best wishes to you, and thank you.
Hi Uno,
Can you let us know more about the Russian that committed suicide? I’m not sure what you meant by “committed suicide via the Fellowship.”
Thanks. It’s nice to have you back. Vena
I would like to know who’s 27-year old daughter died. Does anyone know?
219 “Those still in are not that different from us, only maybe even a little slower to give up and get out.”
Those who are still in are deeply indoctrinated. They are not necessarily able to “acknowledge the truth” because the truth looks up side down for them. It is very sad. We are the lucky ones!
223 – Her name is in the Appeal Democrat (Marysville newspaper) November 10. You get just search “Marysville Road, killed” and the story will come up.
I don’t feel comfortable posting the name here.
222 Vena
The Russian that committed suicide was the mother of a Russian student that came to live here with her daughter and her husband, an American student.
For me, this is truly a tragic tale, and one I think that reflects the current ’state of affairs’ in the fof ,and is worth exposing because it shows the depravity of RB’s ‘perfect’ community.
This elderly Russsian mother came to live in the ‘Isis’ community, selling her property in Russian, giving the procedes to her daughter to purchase a house, where she resided with her daughter’s family. I visited this family a few times, and to me this lady didn’t seem to ‘fit-in’, and pretty much played the role of a nanny to the daughter’s two children.
There could be many reasons that led to this tragic death, yet it seems to me that it is in some way connected to RB’s abuse of Russian students, using young men for his pleasure, with the promise of ‘gifts’ on a larger scale than ever existed in the past.
Also, on a global scale, ‘Isis’ is a certainly not the ‘city of friends’ implied in WW’s poem- it is everything but that!
I investigated the death of the 27-year old. This girl was a daughter of a current member. The other facts I’m sure will come out, but just to correct that error.
218 – Elena
Sounds as if you are asking everyone what is wrong with them/us. From one point of view there may be as many different answers as there are people who contribute here. From my personal experiences in the school I would have nothing that I can think of that would aid a lawsuit if there was one. If there was a lawsuit, I would gladly give financial support if that were possible for me, however right at this moment of my life, that is not even close to possible.
If you are thinking about lawsuits, where your aim is to cause the demise of the fellowship of friends, you need to first speak to some lawyers to make absolutely certain you actually have what is required in the ‘eyes of the law’ to bring about that end. I know nothing of these things.
While it feels like your motives are pure, that is unless it really does have something to do with being married to Girard Haven, in which case I would have no idea what to say, it feels like there is something amiss when I read your post. When I read your words where it feels as though you accuse people of hiding from themselves and not being serious enough, it feels like an attack, and it feels like a misguided attack. Even if you think attack is a useful approach, which I question, I do not think that these are the people you wish to do that to. Personally, I think the real wars and the real revolutions are internal. This does not minimize the idea of community. The more light we gain the more light we have to give. The more we heal ourselves the more we may be able to assist others in healing. One of the amazing, to me, things about this blog, is that most of the ‘regulars’ here are consistently and continuously shining the light they have. They are shining their hard-earned light on themselves and on each other and on the subject of the fellowship of friends and Robert Burton. Light just seems like the best tool for any sort of darkness.
228 James: Some good thoughts James and certainly reflect my feelings. Most of the time resistance is futile because historically it has created the opposite effect.
I believe continually showing current students that former students have created successful lives for themselves and remain emotionally healthy after 10-15 years or so after leaving the Fellowship is the greatest assistance someone could give students considering leaving the Fellowship.
Dear Unoanimo,
I should spare you but what is there of you to still spare? You address Bass Ackwards’ beautiful account of his effort to help his friends in the Fellowship taking one insignificant sentence and writing half a page on it without having ever actually considered him or what he was saying. No, you love to pick on trifle to make a case not on truths behalf but on your vanity’s behalf so that you can show your extensive vocabulary which may well fool more than a few fools that have allowed another fool to fool them for far too many years, but you don’t fool me who have been fooled for far too many years.
You take an insignificant issue on Graduates to call on me when I am presenting a hundred more significant things to touch on not because you care about me or Graduates or a hundred more significant issues but because you’ve become fixed to your eyelashes and curls and need to call attention on nothing but your extensive vocabulary that would sound so much more fresh if you weren’t behind it.
No, dear Uno, it is not I who am looking for trouble when I try to tell you that you missed the woman you were making love to because you were too busy finding out whether she was looking at the size of your eyelashes. The presumptousness and coldness is not mine who have no hairs in my tongue to tell you in detail what the big picture is about but in you who get fixed in the little picture so that you can avoid looking at what is in front of you: Bass Ackwards in his most frail moment telling you that he is taking a step out of the Fellowship of Friends still delicate enough to think that it matters whether he does it without expressing negative emotions and from the King of Hearts, making an effort to write a booklet about his understandings to the people he loves in a language more compassionate than any you have ever had the luck to taste. And I who had just written begging you to understand what we are dealing with, for you to make an insignificant comment on Graduates, whose youtubes I never bothered to look at knowing they would probably take away the little consideration I had for him.
I’ve been living with the sort of you for so long I can spot you a continent away and have no need of eye contact to see through you. It is not I who I feel sorry for but you who neglects to see the beauty of a naked soul presenting itself to you and buffer the intensity of the impression calling on the too mundane minimalism.
Answer the question Unoamino, What does it feel like to look at the shoe laces instead of the naked body in front of you? I asked you sincerely because it would help me understand Robert Burton and Girard Haven and the whole lot of students in the Fellowship of Friends who like you, are too busy looking at the silk ties and not the raped penises.
Dear James,
Thank you for your tone. For even addressing the issue which is what I think needs to be looked at. I may not talk sweetly but I have no doubt about my love or my reasons. And even less about not being the least interested in belonging to a club of healing successful exstudents exposing their writing talents on the internet.
I am here to fight. To lose or win. I am as little afraid of winning as of losing. What more do you think I can lose? But I will not beg again for serious action against the Fellowship of Friends as I stopped begging Girard Haven to become human enough to look at what was in front of him and not what he wanted to see in front of him.
I have brought up two children who I can today say are totally a part of me and have not managed that with sweetness only. I have had to shake the hell out of them more than once and do not regret having done so. There is a time for sweetness and there is a time for firmness.
The thirty five years of sweetness that we have invested in the Fellowship of Friends have brought us this bitter suffering.
No more sweetness for me no matter at what price of popularity.
Elena: I also want to add to my previous comment that I was very angry when I left the Fellowship and that my anger did not subside for a long time. There was a lot to digest. In retrospect I was not in any condition to help anyone else but myself.
I’m not suggesting you don’t have a right to express yourself and express what you feel is right action. However, I am suggesting to you that many of us have been gone now for many years and have had some success in rebuilding our lives, emotionally and otherwise. We are here with the intention of helping others do the same. In order to be successful at healing others, you first have to heal yourself.
230 Elena: “What does it feel like to look at the shoe laces instead of the naked body in front of you?”
I don’t have a naked body in front of me, and in the absence of that I’d have to say I find my shoelaces quite pleasing.
Also, it would depend whose body.
214 Ames (and all)
Thanks for replying.
What I find now is that I have a terrible urge to mock people. It may be connected to having made efforts to be polite for so many years in the FOF. Do you think this is wrong?
234 Nuthead
What I find now is that I have a terrible urge to mock people. It may be connected to having made efforts to be polite for so many years in the FOF. Do you think this is wrong?
Oh, mock on, please!
JoelF
234 Nuthead
I second that-mock as you will!
What is that saying-’take nothing seriously, especially yourself’!
219 wingsspread
“After all, it met some need in us or we would not have been there, or at least not for so long. To sue would feel rather hypocritical. It is as if we would be suing ourselves. ”
Classical buffer!
Jeezy creezy Elena lighten up. The enormity of those 1700+- people is just in your head. Turn around. The whole world is waiting for you.
Elena 230
After reading your post I had to go back and read again
unoanimo’s #152. I still don’t get what you are getting all worked up about. To me at least, it seems that uno, as he often does, simply uses BA’s sentence about the king of hearts as a starting point for a personal exploration of the concept. Unfortunately the language may not be clear for everyone, but I understand it as a suggestion to let go, be open to all sorts of emotions and move beyond the Fellowship dogma and king of hearts fetish.
So, I don’t read that post as an attack on BA at all, but as an open invitation to deeply redefine one’s relation to thoughts and emotions. I don’t claim to know or perfectly understand unoanimo, but I have to say that statements like “I’ve been living with the sort of you for so long I can spot you a continent away” seem to indicate that you are projecting and maybe in this moment you don’t have enough emotional distance to correctly assess the information that is being presented.
In friendship,
Laura
wakeuplittlesuzywakeup
what happened to your lovely dolphin and cow?
NiSARGADATTA
Dear friends,
there is another wonderful gift from Nisargadatta, his last talks:
“Consciousness and the Absolute: The Final Talks of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj”
If you haven’t read it already I strongly recommend it.
Elena and Lauralupa,
Hmmmm…I couldn’t figure out what Elena was upset about, couldn’t find Unoanimo’s diatribe. So Lauralupa, thanks for pointing to the exact passage.
I reread Uno’s words and think they are fine. If I used Fellowship work language as a kind of shorthand in an attempt to describe some psychological experiences that I assumed the others here are familiar with, so be it. If then they find it important to tear apart those labels to get to something more real, fine with me. Words, labels, concepts are what we use to communicate with one another, but if there is not a love or desire to understand each other in the process, then we usually come out with fisticuffs raised ready to provoke a fight. I’m not interested in fighting or provoking anyone. I am simply interested in understanding and helping others to understand. We have received so much distortion of ephemeral truths that each of us now has the chance to learn from our selves and one another.
Sorry if I used some labels that to some of you are worn out, or have simply lost any meaning. Let’s just say that I put my heart into the effort, and I did my best, trying to communicate with my Friends in a language and format I hoped they might be able to hear. Obviously what they do with it is their own business. That’s it.
Cheers,
Bass
BTW Bass, welcome to the free world!
My very best wishes to you
Laura
I guess going into wordpress.com and logging in is essential to keep the avatar alive. I can’t just go into my bookmark and connect that way. So I’ll try to remember to do that.
is my dolphin/cow back now?
Elena:
What you have shared with us about yourself it seems you have a strong desire to help people. So strong that you are willing to go to extremes to help, like with Dorothy. You also seem to have a strong sense of right and wrong.
There are so many people in the world needing help that wouldn’t resist your kind efforts at all.
I am going to be alone at Christmas because I am moving to a place where I won’t know anyone. For a moment I wanted to feel sorry for myself but then from what seemed to come out of nowhere I received ‘why not go help out in a soup kitchen or make yourself useful to someone else who needs it?’
My best moments have been when I have helped someone else in need although I have to say it was never my first choice. It seems to me this may be your first choice, so in your case you could make alot of people’s lives better.
You seem to have a tremendous gift. I think you could do a lot of good for many if you chose to.
Sometimes it’s better to let people stumble and fall and learn on their own. Just like a child, if they do it for themselves there’s a better chance of them not repeating it, rather than a parent telling them not to do something, or not allowing them to do something out of fear they’ll hurt themselves.
I hope this doesn’t sound too much like preaching. Mooo —
WULSWP to WULSWP: “My best moments have been when I have helped someone else in need although I have to say it was never my first choice.” I reread this statement I wrote and find it needs editing. I would say that with regards to my loved ones, it was many times my first choice to help them, but with folks I don’t know it has not been. That would be more of a correct statement.
It would be fun if Nuthead got an avatar. I would like to see some squirrels on this website.
Do you think that Robert Burton’s obsession with license plates might possibly have something to do with the possibilty that he may end up making them in prison? Just think of all the shocks he will find there!
Vena! Sounds like you verified something!
Dear Pensate…..
What do we know for sure, and what is the truth?
The LK and KJ has not been addressed by officials nor denied?
That tells you something.
It has been confirmed by different source who will say…It SEEMS true…..
As long as an organization does not openly communicate it is prone to interpretation.
_br-h-m seems to be the new president. R-s- declined.
Rumors ?…time will tell…..
In response….to
on November 14, 2007 at 9:08 am191 Pensate un attimo
I am not sure we really know what happened with LT and KJ (if really something happened).
I don’t want the blog to be a source of false information, it is too precious!
Please write only facts you are sure about them.
Thank you, friends
Notices of a concert open to all in the community (members, former members and never-were-members) have consistently been removed from the public bulletin board at the post office by FOF students. This is an unfortunate show of paranoia and intolerance and a fruitless attempt to undermine the development of a growing, new alternative community in the area.
The dear souls who are contributing so much to planting the seeds of this new community are real pioneers. They are making something positive out of a situation that historically has had unpleasant ramifications. Their intent is not to hurt the Fellowship but to provide an alternative that is open to all.
When I started blogging here I was certain I was going to find a movement towards a class action lawsuit or some kind of legal action.
Other bloggers said they are not interested in this and some others brought up some very good points why this is such a difficult thing to do.
At this point I am thinking about the media, a great paper or magazine where one of us possibly very talented with communication tell his/her story (some of you people here write very well), maybe even writing to local papers frequently may raise some interest. Honestly I would like to see a story even in the New York Times!
BTW are the CA residents still thinking about party near the Gate House?
Here is one of the headlines:
“CALIFORNIA CULT NESTLED IN THE FOOTHILLS EXAMINED”
Luaralupe,
We’ve gone through this with Unoanimo for 26 pages and seven months and I am not the only one that has pointed it out repeatedly. Uno’s vanity may become more astute in presenting itself demeanoring other’s posts but it continues to be there in this one.
You defended half of it, what about the other half?
I actually consider Unoanimo a friend. A friend who I am willing to question and photograph whereever I see his weakness coming out. I did not call him presumptous or cold, although I meant it in the question I asked him. Bass’ post saying he did not care about Uno’s interpretation is fine, nor did I mention Bass’ post in my first post to Unoanimo but asked a question hoping he’d look at the pattern.
We seem to pick on trifles to get our point across because the question here is not Unoanimo or I but where we are going with this blog. I’m probably not going anywhere with this blog just as I wasn’t going anywhere with the Fellowship of Friends but it is great to find out so that I can get off and leave you happily looking at music youtubes and collectively talking about how awful things are in the Fellowship of Friends without the willingness to take serious measures to change them.
The pattern of the present conflict on the blog is the same pattern of many previous conflicts in which I have participated with others of you also involved in this one.
It is the same pattern of conflict that occurs individually. In inner work, one lawfully establishes the priorities in accordance with one’s self and retrieves energy from the weaker ‘I’s trying to take space.
The dinamics between Unoanimo and I are particularly small but they are very similar to the dinamics between the blog and the Fellowship of Friends.
When I ask Uno “Why are you looking at the Graduates issue instead of addressing the Fellowship of Friends issue and weakning the bigger impulse I am pushing towards with minor trifles? Are we here dealing about how we attract each other’s attention on the blog and make a bet on our popularity or are we trying to find a solution about how people are being raped and abused in the Fellowship of Friends? It is the same question that I am posing the blog in asking, “What is it in us that allows us to look at people being raped and not call the police?”
In social situations a community has to call for the social forces that can stop the abuse lawfully just as in personal questions the individual has to call for inner forces to lawfully put an end to the negative emotion. It is not surprising that those who defend the expression of negative emotions in themselves cannot also take action against corruption socially.
The fact that the people involved in this blog have a laissez faire attitude towards the Fellowship of Friends, (for no matter how much we expose it, if we don’t call the police while the rape continues but sit and watch), it is a “let it be” position that I do not share.
We live in a time in which the let it be and mind your own business is present in every aspect of life. Families, friends and all those involved tend to watch their children drive themselves against the wall and commit suicide after another night of drinking and say, Oh, she was crazy, too many drugs for too long a life, and buffer the fact that that young woman had been begging for help for years to overcome the suffering that was imposed on her by a family and a nation that gave her no better options. The tragedy goes unchecked because those involved are willing to buffer it with the comfort that it happens to too many people to care and not enough of them to do anything about it.
The tragedy of the tragic world we live in, is that people like Nuthead, Joel and Tiger think it is not a tragedy but a comedy to laugh about and move on with their little jokes so that the energy they don’t invest in looking at what is there to assume responsibility for, is spent on wallowing about how they missed the opportunity in their old age.
There is no difference between that woman who died on saturday night and the Fellowship of Friends that we are looking at. Yes, a minor institution of thoroughly corrrupt individuals with only a handful of people in the scale of a State and yet over fifteen thousand people that have passed through its stomach and payed for it with their flesh and blood, including the young woman who died on saturday night and the Russian lady who committed suicide after realizing that she had given up her beautiful winter for her daughter’s nightmare.
What world is waiting for me to look at Yesry Baba if not this one that you neglect to see?
Who are the lunatics? Those who call out for the firemen when they spot the smoke or those who neglect to call them even after the house is burning down?
Elena, I don’t think a blog is a place for action – simply not the nature of a blog. It is not practical to try to force action from a form that does not produce that. But an email chain could and you could start it and organize all who are actually interested in demonstrations, legal action, or whatever. You could form committees and organize it via email – or a ‘ning’ type social network might work better. You could be a leader, but to ‘guilt trip’ this crowd is simply not going to be effective. These efforts have to be organized, and I would think that if the organization and goals are practical and clear that many who are not in a position, for whatever reason, to directly participate would add some support,– financial, technical, whatever. But organizing is essential. Think of it as an art – no art is created from energy alone, it must be brought into a FORM, music, dance, etc.
Also, I don’t agree with your critique of Uno, I have no idea who he just know some of his words. What difference does it make which blog person does or does not like some other blog person? Blogs are powerful, – THIS blog is powerful. But it is not a form that we are used, and it is hard to really know the nature of the beast – our VIRTUAL POSTMODERN ZOO….
(PS I’m working on a show called “animals on the inside” ….and am using lots of blog material.)
veramente: Where is that picture from on your avatar? I love that green!
Elena -
I wish for you a friend that could just hold you. Just hold you and tell you to breathe.
Remember too that a sense of humor and music are two of the greatest gifts we appear to have been given. They can sometimes be almost all one has, along with friendship, to get through this odd predicament that we are all in together.
256 wakeuplittlesuzywakeup
veramente: Where is that picture from on your avatar? I love that green!
—————————————
WULSWU,
it is an aurora borealis sky over a lake in Alaska.
This search on the avatar thing was fun and serious! :)
I checked pictures of cats and wolves, plants, birds, rainbows and even people like Jimi Hendrix (I love him)!
Your jumping cow is so light with the dolphin! It reminds me of lightness of being.
195, 196 and 216 are newly moderated.
For Elena
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Greene
ak0aka0ka: My e-mail is recroanima(at)gmail(dot)com.
Elena 254
‘The tragedy of the tragic world we live in, is that people like Nuthead, Joel and Tiger think it is not a tragedy but a comedy to laugh about and move on with their little jokes so that the energy they don’t invest in looking at what is there to assume responsibility for, is spent on wallowing about how they missed the opportunity in their old age’.
I don’t think anyone was mocking you as a person. Your concern for the ‘larger view’ is admirable and also sobering.
Life, as I see it, is both a tragedy and a comedy. Realistically,
each person needs to discover his/her contribution to lightening the sufferrings around them. I know I can’t do anything to help the Russian lady who took her life the other day by hanging herself in her apartment next to the house she helped purchase for her daughter. I can, and have, offerred my help to her grieving family for what it is worth.
As an ex-student of the fof, another thing I feel I can do is to
engage in a critical dialogue concerning the abuses and outright thievery of RB and the fof for anyone who is interested to participate.
One question I have for all of us here is, forgiveness is often stated to very powerful. Can we bring ourselves to forgive RB for all his well documented transgressions, and could this forgiveness enact a change, not only in ourselves, but on an external level that no law suit could ever possibly accomplish?
A Tiger 266
I agree, especially on the power of forgiveness.
Just yesterday I read this quote: “life is a tragedy for those who feel, and a comedy for those who think.” True, on one level. Still, luckily there are moments when even the feeling ones are into something other than tragedy.
That does not necessarily mean that they are not aware of tragedy. Looking at the big picture life is always a tragic affair, still, when you look at an even bigger picture you may remember that beauty magically resides there too. Students IMO need to be reminded that beauty and joy lie not forever bound and gagged in the claustrophobic Fellowship bunkers. It’s the other side of the tragedy. There is a way out of emotional starvation. Beauty is food, laughter, music, sex, art, drugs, friendship, why exclude anything? I think we support each other also by sharing lighter, sweeter foods.
I see it as each one of us making a mark here by using his/her weapon of choice.
I enjoy your long, emotional and perceptive posts. As I said before, they make me feel, which is wonderful. I also enjoy all the other animal voices, and the more I recognize their individuality the more they become interesting. The present is a different moment for each one of us, existentially, and maybe remembering this will help you to accept and enjoy the spirit of those who, although not as consumed by the drama of the situation, come here with the evident purpose of sharing.
Lay your head where my heart used to be
Hold the earth above me
Lay down in the green grass
Remember when you loved me
Come closer don’t be shy
Stand beneath a rainy sky
The moon is over the rise
Think of me as a train goes by
Clear the thistles and brambles
Whistle ‘Didn’t He Ramble’
Now there’s a bubble of me
And it’s floating in thee
Stand in the shade of me
Things are now made of me
The weather vane will say…
It smells like rain today
God took the stars and he tossed ‘em
Can’t tell the birds from the blossoms
You’ll never be free of me
He’ll make a tree from me
Don’t say good bye to me
Describe the sky to me
And if the sky falls, mark my words
We’ll catch mocking birds
Lay your head where my heart used to be
Hold the earth above me
Lay down in the green grass
Remember when you loved me
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=0yPMdWxSxUg
Sorry, I forgot to address the above post to Elena.
266 Tiger
There was an organized forgive-Robert-and-ourselves thing several months ago on the blog, using a New Age form of Hawaiian hooponopono. You might want to review those posts.
258 Elena
264 Xeeena
I was going to suggest you check out Ford Greene, Elena, but Xeeena beat me to it. Call him up. I’d be surprised if no one from this blog has done it yet, since his name’s been brought up before. I heard he represented Troy. He ought to be able to tell you clearly what would be required and what would be the likely result of a lawsuit. Then let us all know.
I’m very sympathetic to your impulse to do something, Elena, and you shouldn’t let anyone give you the shuck and jive about “we must first work on ourselves.” That’s true–we all need to work on ourselves–but it’s a buffer that keeps people content with their TV remote, blog, self-remembering and Haagen Dazs. You can work on yourself while you’re following your conscience and kicking ass. But it’s up to you to pick up the phone and not just whine.
JAVOH wrote (to Elena and Xeeena):
“I was going to suggest you check out Ford Greene, Elena, but Xeeena beat me to it. Call him up. I’d be surprised if no one from this blog has done it yet, since his name’s been brought up before. I heard he represented Troy. He ought to be able to tell you clearly what would be required and what would be the likely result of a lawsuit. Then let us all know.”
Yes, good place to start.
Another suggestion: When you talk with him, ask him how he charges for his services. Ask him in general how lawyers charge. At least one or two people on the blog have discouraged the idea of a lawsuit based on fees that may be prohibitive. But lawyers are also motivated to file a lawsuit if they believe they can win. They’re not doing people a favor. They know that if the financial risk is too great for their clients, no one will hire them. They make money if they win.
Elena and all, what do you think of starting a ‘ning’ for the purpose of sharing information, and organizing. It would have to have very strict rules of membership. I don’t know how to set one up – and don’t have the time right now. Does anyone?
Just an idea:
Below is an article that was featured on Seattle Conscious Choice, October 2007.
You can check it on line for the latest issue.
What I was thinking is perhaps we can submit a story, we could talk about the blog, the Fellowship of Friends and how we are sick and tired this organization is still going on recruiting and hurting its people.
We can send a letter to the editor: seattleeditor(at)consciouschoice(dot)com or we can suggest a story idea to same address above.
We could even contact the writer of this article who has written for several famous publications.
It would be nice if we were not just talking only to each other here.
We need circulation!
I am sorry I cannot write the article myself, we need someone really good.
Article below:
“The Guru is Dead. Long Live the Guru.
Are spiritual teachers still valid in the modern age?
by John Kain
There is a scene in the recent documentary Jonestown: The Life and Death of Peoples Temple in which one of the few surviving members recounts a story of a woman commanded to strip naked and stand in front of Jim Jones and the board as punishment for doing something out of turn. The tale is chilling enough on its own, but made even more so in light of the horror (built upon the sordid accumulation of such abuses) to come — the massacre of 913 people on a warm Guyanese Saturday in November of 1978. Looking back at Jonestown over the span of nearly 30 years, the same questions arise: How could it happen? How could such a large number of people subjugate themselves so totally to one “spiritual” leader? Why were most blind to the obvious abuses? And finally, how could they give up their lives (and in many cases the lives of their children) for such a madman?
The mentor-student relationship is, in many ways, the cornerstone of every spiritual discipline. But in a time of Jim Jones and David Koresh, Ted Haggard and the Catholic Church scandals, with hard science and psychology continually unlocking the secrets of the universe and our inner selves, it’s easy to wonder if spiritual tutelage is possible, desirable or even necessary.
After significant study of the relationship between spiritual seeker and guide, I have come to believe that genuine teachers are still essential. As Thomas Merton — that most eloquent and literary Trappist monk — wrote, “We’ve become marvelous at self-delusion.” His words ring as true today. In fact, judging from the present state of the world, we appear to have perfected a most magnanimous relationship with self-deceit. Those of us who desire to “dither among the dark roots of existence” (as one poet described the spiritual quest), are often better served by finding a guide who has long traveled the path — who speaks the local language and can navigate the ups, downs and bumps in the road.
For the past two years, I have interviewed scores of spiritual teachers and their students in an effort to find what works, what doesn’t and how we can appreciate, within this subtle exchange of knowledge and power, the difference between the two. The relationship between teacher and student is a dynamic, complex and delicate union requiring from both parties a healthy combination of ethical vigilance, transparency, trust and the ability (or courage) to accept one’s own personality flaws. Jonestown is, most obviously, an extreme example of a guru-disciple relationship gone bad, but many of the themes of abuse — suppression of individual personalities, systematic humiliation, threats and isolation from the mainstream, to name a few — exist in lesser degrees in many current factions (spiritual and otherwise) at work in the world today.
But at its best, the spiritual mentor-student relationship teaches us how to get along with each other, ourselves and (perhaps most importantly) the natural world. Because of the recent breakdowns in institutionalized religion and the interest in fresh approaches to spirituality — with its melding of psychology, science, social action, feminism and the like — there is perhaps no better time than the present to explore a relationship with a spiritual guide. And with the future of our species increasingly dependent on ethical considerations over any other, true spiritual guidance may be the key to our very survival.
The Spiritual Traveler’s Guide to Finding a Guru
How do we know a healthy relationship when we see one? When I asked Sharron Allen — longtime disciple of and aid to Sufi master Murat Yagan — what she expected from her teacher and her spiritual practice in general, she told me, “I don’t trust a teaching that makes me feel good inside. I want to be broken down and built up again.” In the context of Jonestown, this statement might seem eerily horrifying, yet Sharron’s relationship with her teacher, Murat — as well as her interchange with her spiritual community — is one of the most nourishing and healthy I have seen.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) there is no one template of protection that we can cast over these relationships to ensure a safe, healthy, successful union. As Joan Chittister, the compassionately articulate and insightful Benedictine sister, told me, “People don’t fit into molds. Make your molds if it will make you feel better, but just about nobody is going to go there.” Ultimately the spiritual teacher-student exchange is about breaking molds — not creating them. Still there are guidelines to hold in mind as we negotiate this process.
Encouragingly the “old-style” guru-disciple model has given way — in many disciplines — to a new paradigm that gives the student much more responsibility and the teacher much less unchecked authority. Under the new model the spiritual teacher “no longer has power of attorney over the soul,” as Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi described it to me. Reb Zalman, as he is fondly known, is the founder of the Jewish Renewal movement and a skilled synthesizer of spiritual and cultural patterns.
Before being absorbed into pop culture and attached to words like “fitness,” “software,” and “investment,” the word “guru” (Sanskrit for “weighty one” or “the destroyer of darkness”) originally referred to a teacher in the Hindu Yoga tradition. The guru-disciple relationship is characterized by an intense bond and is thought, in its traditional form, to extend beyond this lifetime. Though there are many permutations of the spiritual teacher-student exchange, we often believe the guru-disciple union to be the quintessential example of such a relationship. And because it is inherently devotional, it has, over time, often been a showcase for the best and the worst that the spiritual quest has to offer. This is nothing new, however. The Kula-Arnava-Tantra, a medieval text, warns the wary spiritual traveler, “Many are the gurus who rob the disciple of his wealth, but rare is the guru who removes the disciple’s afflictions.” And so it goes.
Here’s the rub: we often assume that a spiritual teacher is somehow more of a complete human than we are. As the late Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche, the insightful Tibetan teacher said, “When you hear of someone that possesses remarkable qualities, you regard them as significant beings and yourself as insignificant.” This is the paradox of the spiritual teacher-student relationship. Our perceived inadequacy or our burden of suffering — that feeling that often got us looking for a teacher in the first place — is reinforced when we look upon someone or something as “more advanced,” “wiser,” “more enlightened,” “pain free,” etc. We want what we think they “have.” This is why it is so important to find — if we are even interested in doing so — a gifted teacher, one who recognizes the traps where students get stuck and the heights from which teachers fall.
The wise and world-tested Tibetan lama Gehlek Rimpoche plainly told me, “When someone advertises this guru is great and did this and that or some organization says ‘this is our fantastic teacher, blah, blah, blah’ — personally, I think that is not so good.” It’s dangerous when a teacher believes that their personality is the essence that must be worshipped. As my teacher, Zen Master John Daido Loori, points out, “There is only one person who can grant spiritual authority, new or old, and that is the student. Most students, when they begin to study with a teacher, don’t realize they’re granting spiritual authority. But it is critically important to know when you are extending such authority.”
By being the party with the ability to grant authority, it is the student, not the teacher, who is in the power position in a mentor-disciple relationship. Yet often students, against good common sense, gladly hand over their power to a teacher. Or while working through a large dose of transference (playing out unmet needs from childhood) they fashion the teacher into a mother or father, or a god. Genuine teachers will not accept a student’s power and will have the skills to negotiate the messiness of psychological baggage and scores of other pitfalls.
I asked Reverend Mother Sudha Puri (teacher in the renowned Hindu lineage of Ramikrishna, of the Bhakti Yoga sect, which is very devotional) how she handled her student’s intense emotions. “I find I have to reduce a student’s devotional attitude so they are not dependent on me in that way,” she told me. “The teachings state that God-Guru-Vedas (the scriptures) are all one, but for a student to have me as their ishta (ideal) is, I think, awful for them and for me too. So I try to be very honest and clear with them, to accept their love and their gifts and their appreciation. But the fact of the matter is that if they get caught up in personality, it’s very damaging for them. I really don’t encourage that kind of devotion.”
Adyashanti, the dynamic Advaita Vedanta teacher, explained a similar method. “I tell people I’m not in a babysitting program. I’m not here to crush your ego. I don’t do that. Life’s going to do it for you. I’m not here to correct you. I can understand the value of it for some people at some time and why teachers play that role and all that, but I’m just not interested,” he told me. Sister Joan Chittister writes, “The role of the spiritual leader… is not to make martinets out of people; it is to lead them to spiritual adulthood where they themselves make the kind of choices that give life depth and quality.” Amen!
Spiritual seekers in the West have weathered many storms and scandals in the last several decades within both traditional and “new” religions. We have learned, through much pain and catastrophe, that spiritual teachers are human and not a little fallible. If we have not drowned in our own disillusionment (which can be, in manageable doses, a valuable “cleanser” for the spiritual journey) we might find a healthy maturity in this new vision of the religious landscape. We are now less likely (one hopes) to accept spiritual hierarchy without question, to bow in subjugation, and more likely to shrug off spiritual hypocrisy or patriarchy or cultural bigotry. This new model — where the spiritual teacher is less of a demigod and more human — evokes the student to be more responsible for their spiritual growth and to trust themselves more fully.
“It always comes back to my own mistrust of myself. This gets me into traps or trusting someone else more than I trust in myself,” Lisa Talesnick, disciple of Murat Yagan, told me when I asked about how she worked with her teacher. “Like my trust in Murat; when I have a deep trust in my true essence he meets me there.”
A true teacher guides us to self-trust, that’s the foundation of spiritual practice. This doesn’t mean we have to be completely clear; we can trust ourselves even though we are “marvelous at self-delusion.” Self-trust means not turning a blind eye to our own personal quagmire and acknowledging at the same time that there is often more to us than we perceive. When Sharron told me she wanted to be “broken down and built up again” by the teachings, she was saying it with a sure confidence in her own ability to be vulnerable without losing her sense of self. This is the difference between subjugation and freedom.
Twenty years ago Jack Engler, the psychotherapist and Buddhist practitioner, wrote, “You have to be somebody before you can be nobody.” He was referring to the idea that we need a strong and healthy sense of self as we journey deeper into spirituality. As students, we need to do our own work; we need to dig into our dark spots, accept our frailties and faults and get to know ourselves psychologically as well as spiritually. This is the best way of insuring a healthy relationship with a spiritual guide, and this is where the real work gets done.
Be aware that the spiritual journey can be serious business. “People think that spirituality is safe — that it’s warm and cuddly. It does have that side, but it’s also dangerous, and there are casualties along the way like anything else in life,” cautions Adyashanti. But for every one teacher gone astray there are ten good ones and even a few great ones — so, seeker, take heart.
John Kain (johnkain.net) has written for numerous publications including the Shambhla Sun, Spirituality and Health and Yoga Journal. He is a former associate publisher of Tricycle: The Buddhist Review. His book, A Rare and Precious Thing: The Possibilities and Pitfalls of Studying with a Spiritual Teacher, was recently published by Bell Tower/Random House. “
ak0:
Also a good idea about ning, or some other venue. This obviously isn’t the best place to chat about these things (Hi Abe! Hi Robert!), but my main point was this: If someone is inspired to look into this further, then don’t be discouraged by passing remarks on the blog. Just get some more information from the experts. It’s an emotional issue, but it’s good to investigate the possibility of a lawsuit with clear thinking and not with emotion.
Whatever any of us decide to do with the rest of our lives outside the confines of the Fellowship (whether lawsuit, or just living as well as we can, or maybe both), there’s a full-page newspaper ad that came out recently that I really like:
Tiger Woods is standing in some tall grass up to his knees as he surveys the landscape. The ball is completely invisible in the tall grass, his golf club is in hand, and he’s lining up his shot.
The caption for the ad reads:
What you did: 10%
What you do next: 90%
KA,
Don’t ask me to be the kind of leader that has to go around begging people to find enough dignity to put a few coins in my hat and back me up in the most serious action they’ll ever have the opportunity to take. That is not the kind of Art that I am interested in practicing.
I don’t think we even need to know each other to know what is necessary to get a lawyer to do his job with the Fellowship of Friends. Not that it would not be wonderful to get to know each other while we are at it.
We are each mature enough to take legal action where it is needed at whatever the price, and can offer ourselves for ourselves because we know that it is the solution without having to be each other’s best friend, brother or sister, but civilized people using their rights to act as citizens, or we are not mature enough and need to stand behind a leader like Robert Burton to decide for us what is best.
Don’t ask me to become the role I am trying to overthrow.
And then understand that it is for some to inspire to action and for others to take action, simply because some are better at the administration of action than at the inspiration to action.
And then consider that it is for some to inspire to war and charge and die first if necessary and for others to organize the troops and plan the tactics. Either way, I am not calling people to back me up and charge the English people, I am saying, people are being raped and abused in the Fellowship of Friends and the only way to stop that is to take legal action. If you understand that, what are you willing to do about it? If you have twenty dollars to put in, what are you waiting to tell us that you have twenty dollars to put in. “Twenty dollars, an hour of work and can bring some coffee in the intervals. That may be all I have but I know where I stand.”
Twenty dollars multiplied by five hundred people that have left in the past six months is ten thousand dollars, that should be enough to pay for the first paperwork.
We were willing to pay a hundred to three hundred dollars every month for thirty five years for Robert Burton to rape men behind the altar without having anyone walk around with a hat convincing us that we were doing a good cause but need, how many of us to walk around trying to convince us to get a few dollars, once in lifetime to put the things we personally allowed to get so crooked in the right track?
You are much better at Art than I am KA, and may you profit from all the animals in your paintings but our understanding of what this blog is for, is a whole canvas different.
Guilt is as good a catalyst as any as far as I am concerned. At least it is better than screaming but remaining an accomplice
You’ve much stood up for me in the past few months and I thank you deeply for your freshness and sincerity but we too disagree on this one.
Your paintings and posts though, still make life more joyfull.
Many people are naive when they think that there is some powerful law or a simple tool against Robert Burton.
The newspapers do not want to post an article. They say that it is not enough to hear complaints from the ex-members, there must be A LEGAL ACTION done first.
I just watched a documentary about the catholic child molester “Deliver Us From Evil”. It shows very well how hard it is to stop a sick-head from doing what he is doing. People are “too nice”!
KA,
Your last post 271 came up when I sent my last one so I had not seen it. I also don’t know about this computer things but thank you for even thinking seriously about it.
Bistro and Another voice, the first thing I did when I left the Fellowship of Friends was contact F. Greene. I think he said he charged fifty percent and that he could probably get money off court with just the issue of my daughter. I told him I did not just want money off court and have to sign a paper to stop making claims on the Fellowship of Friends.
He was the first man that acted normal and spoke openly that I had seen in a long time. Just that shocked me.
I don’t need another visit to know just by what has been exposed here that we have a very serious case against the Fellowship of Friends. One that there is no way we could lose. If the lawyer keeps all the money, couldn’t we find at least a student lawyer? And still try to keep some money for the most damaged students that would need serious help after it collapsed? Aren’t there four or five student lawyers that would consider fighting this case?
Abe friend, wouldn’t you like to help them? Is it too late now for you?
On a totally different issue,
I offer a moment of silence for Ilene C. and the Russian lady who committed suicide last week. I had Ilene with me for a month or a little more and left her in a rehab place before I left the states. The news is shocking and sad and it tells me that we will continue to hear more of this kind of news until the Fellowship of Friends is completely stopped. Even after, there will be news like this one. Some of the deeply indoctrinated would also tend to commit suicide if they did not receive proper help.
Tiger,
If I had not already forgiven Girard Haven and Robert Burton for my experience in the Fellowship of Friends I would not have the courage to fight it so clearly and openly. I forgive them for harming me but I will not forgive myself for allowing others to continue to be harmed without doing everything I can to stop it.
Elena “Don’t ask me to be the kind of leader that has to go around begging people to find enough dignity to put a few coins in my hat and back me up in the most serious action they’ll ever have the opportunity to take. That is not the kind of Art that I am interested in practicing.”
No, I think you misunderstood me – I would certainly not suggest you become that kind of leader. For one thing it would not be effective and for another I can’t see you being in the least bit interested! I’m just saying that a form helps and that most likely you are not the only one who wants action and in that case a way to communicate is a helpful thing. That’s all. If there were some sort of form for it I bet it would attract some money. But there has to be a plan – or do you just want me to send you twenty dollars? I don’t know your address to send my check. Or do you take Visa? A leader is not necessarily an administrator – but if not, knows how to attract and work with one. A leader is simply someone who focuses and had energy- and boy …that’s you!
Is it difficult to start a ‘ning’? – those of you who know…
About ‘either guilt/or accomplice’ ….well, there’s a few more choices I hope. Don’t ignore those who are actually on board the same ship as you.
Yes, let’s go ahead and forgive Robert Burton! And let him abuse and screw the lives of more people! He is not a gay, he is a maniac! I think this “niceness” is simply a buffer to cover our laziness.
Elena you said
“…Twenty dollars multiplied by five hundred people that have left in the past six months is ten thousand dollars, that should be enough to pay for the first paperwork….
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This seems feasable, maybe with the GF?
Elena, could someone like Ames or Joseph G
set up an accout where we all can donate money
for Ford Greene?
275, 277 Elena
I don’t make any judgments about whether you have any responsibility to do anything about the Fellowship, but the fact is, if there’s going to be a lawsuit, someone has to take the trouble to do some organizing, no matter who the lawyer is. A lawyer has to represent clients, and people have to volunteer to be plaintiffs. Someone has to sit down with the lawyer, lay out the background, provide access to information, etc. Someone has to make decisions about what to ask the court to do, what to ask for and accept for settlement if that opportunity arises. Lawyers generally aren’t even allowed to make those decisions without client authorization. Being a plaintiff isn’t always a huge burden for years on end–but it can be, or at least be a significant burden on occasion.
Financial arrangements depend on the lawyer. Hiring a lawyer by the hour, or for a modest fee, for a case like this is not realistic, so the lawyer would have to be working on a contingency. Fifty percent is high–but not if you don’t have a better alternative. I don’t know what “student lawyers” you’re referring to, but a lawyer has to pass the bar to be allowed to appear in court. Also, inexperienced lawyers taking down Goliaths happens much more frequently in the movies than in reality–you want someone who knows what he’s doing. Litigating against the Fellowship will not be fun, and winning will not be easy.
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“I don’t need another visit to know just by what has been exposed here that we have a very serious case against the Fellowship of Friends. One that there is no way we could lose.”
This is naivete speaking, maybe along with a few other things not closely connected with the realities of the legal world, like anger.
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Like I said, it’s your business to figure out what you want to do, but to me, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to bemoan everyone else’s apathy and cowardice and then give all the reasons why you shouldn’t be expected to be the one to do anything concrete.
Elena:
Yours: “If they [students] were evolving even slightly, the Fellowship of Friends would not be a harmful place and there would be no place for the blog.”
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You must have lots of self importance and a great deal of vanity to spread your wings over other people’s free will and free choice. You claim yourself the ability to know better than hundreds of others that they are not evolving even slightly in the Fellowship of Friends.
I respect your decision not to be in the Fellowship of Friends, it is your choice and I also think you have the right to criticize whatever you want, but I have very little respect to the patronizing position you take in telling others whether they are evolving in the Fellowship of Friends or not.
It is ridiculous to say that the very existence of this blog is a proof for the Fellowship of Friends to be a harmful place.
I have read some of your posts earlier in this blog exposing extremely intimate and almost graphical details about your husband’s intimate life. Such public exposure is criminal in any way one looks at it. From that respect the Fellowship of Friends is a less harmful place since you left it.
You accuse others for sexual misconduct and you act in a criminal way towards someone you keep on stating your love for him… really bizarre.
Hello Elena ~
You wrote ~
“Answer the question Unoamino, What does it feel like to look at the shoe laces instead of the naked body in front of you? I asked you sincerely because it would help me understand Robert Burton and Girard Haven and the whole lot of students in the Fellowship of Friends who like you, are too busy looking at the silk ties and not the raped penises.”
_______________________
Well, Elena, (a ‘hello’ before the command “Answer” would be nice, yet, actually your question to me is for you (again)…
After all, if you can find in my post where it mentions any “address” to Bass Ackwards, then, we will have something to both look at, though you will not, because I simply did not “address” anyone specifically, other than the obvious blog-at-large and I meant to have it that way:
Elena, would only you step back a moment and look at your own metaphors, whether you’ve lived them yet or are they still wishes wanting more space to grow than your blankets of words are allowing (?) then perhaps you wouldn’t be getting so many ‘observations’ from others for being off the mark concerning (me), IMO you’re missing the concern for yourself…
If you’d look at the “naked body” you’ll see that I have two distinct ways of quoting, ‘addressing’ and ‘not addressing’ ~ one where I write Dear Elena, then write “You Wrote” (post the quote you wrote and address you with some thoughts); I did not “address” Bass, not even indirectly, I addressed “trying to be in the King of Hearts”…
Only if you’re really using your painbody’s artistic license to its utmost breaking point could you go against the opinion of the actual person that you said I was addressing (who has already found nothing there to talk about so far as some ‘personal attack from me’) and still say that it happened anyway, regardless of my intent and the person who wrote the quote I was using as a diving board…
To me Elena, of all people looking at the silk tie and not the purple color of the face being choked by its being pulled too tight by Analysis & Rage, it is you, you are talking to yourself again, BTW.
now for your “I consider Unoanimo my friend” comments referring to the details surrounding the dissolution of my marriage, well, Elena, again, it’s a deep stab in the solar plexus, all the way to the bent knife tips landing on the vertebrae-stop-sign,
regardless, I am still not going to give you the drama you’re looking for, thanks, but no thanks;
you know not 1/100 of one percent concerning my relationship, my love, my application of love, let alone anything outside of the Fellowship of Friends hobbies of thinking their way into the Heart of The Matter like a run away lawn mower stuck on ‘high’ let loose inside a locked chicken coop cram filled with screaming feathery mothers and defenseless dense eggs.
Destroy me Elena, everyone else is doing it in Oregon House, a little intercontinental ‘cooking’ is just what I need at one of the most vulnerable crossroads I have ever witnessed thus far in my life, to have such a friend as you at a time like this, who needs enemies?
From where I am standing, your attack looks like a rerun episode of Captain Kangaroo and Mr. Rogers put together, a duo, yes, a duo, similar to Robert Burton and Girard Haven; real suffering does not have time to look backwards, let alone find artificial targets to lick its lips about while feeling more oneself by making others less of themselves within ones heart.
So, don’t fool yourself Elena, you are no friend of mine today and today is all I have.
__________________________
l.t.y.a.
283 “Destroy me Elena, everyone else is doing it in Oregon House”
Uno, I am still in Oregon House and I don’t wish you to be destroyed. I know you are going thru the hell now. I feel for you. Be strong, hang in there! All problems are temporary.
A Tiger (#25-266),
For me, the idea of forgiveness is incredibly complicated and subtle, but one conclusion I have come to is this. Just as one cannot truly help another without first being asked for help, I don’t think one can forgive another without first being asked for forgiveness. In both cases, acting without the request makes it a wrong triad, that is, one cannot be the active force in either case. But as a separate internal octave, it seems to me that preparing oneself to forgive, or to help, is valid. One can envisage oneself being ready when the time comes, but that is quite different from the ‘act’ of forgiveness. Another way of putting that is that one can pray to be in the right internal position or state when forgiveness is asked for. So, I’m saying that forgiveness is the transmission of a special energy that must match a receiver that is open and also prepared, either by intention or grace (for example, just saying the words, “I’m sorry”, without remorse, won’t do). Burton appears to be very far from that.
I agree with you that if the right triad does occur, forgiveness is incredibly powerful, for both parties. That’s about it for what I can express in words.
Do not be naive!!! No court will approve a class case in that matter. A class case is approved when an allegedly similar accusation encompass a very large number of people with identical and distinct set of claims. A class case is usually being processed in mass commercial/administrative lawsuits.
The “potential claims” Elena raised including leaving her daughter behind etc’ are ridiculous for no one in the FoF has ever asked or wanted her to do so. Further more, there are hundreds of opposite cases in which FoF members have been both devoted students and devoted parents and some of their children later on joined the FoF.
What you do not understand is you may or may not harm the FoF financially, but you can never harm the school. The school will always be here in one form or another, known to many or hidden. But as I said, you do not understand that…
284 somebody: “Uno, I am still in Oregon House and I don’t wish you to be destroyed. I feel for you. Be strong, hang in there!”
Uno, I second that emotion.
285 Ames: “wrong triad”, “active force”, “separate internal octave”.
Good grief!!
deleted at the author’s request
Ames, very well expressed. Like love, forgiveness is more a state of mind (or “internal state”) than it is something we direct at someone. Just as someone may not be ready for our love, or accept it, they also may not be ready for our forgiveness, or accept it.
In regard to our attitudes about the Fellowship, I personally believe this is an important issue. There’s a silly game that often occurs related to forgiveness, and manipulative people (like Burton) are very good at playing that game.
It goes something like this:
“If you don’t forgive me for my abusive behavior, then there is something wrong with you. But if you do forgive me, I will not accept your forgiveness. So as long as I don’t accept your forgiveness, I control you.” etc. It goes in circles.
Human psychology gets into absurd realms. The above is exactly what happens. The key is to focus on what is within our own control, and to feel our own emotions, and to think our own thoughts. We can’t “make” someone accept our forgiveness. But as you wrote, “One can envisage oneself being ready when the time comes.”
But short of that… What a huge amount of unnecessary baggage we carry along with us — and especially carried with us as members of the Fellowship of Friends, where the nonsense was dished out daily.
(And yes, unfortunately I too dished it out. Ah… and the ability to forgive myself — yet another issue.)
Dear Uno
One does not love a place the less for having suffered in it unless it has all been suffering, nothing but suffering.
or a person for having suffered “in it”…
Unoanimo, Thank you for such a civilized reply. I know nothing about your play and my refference to nakedness had nothing to do with your marriage. Sorry if it hit a target I was not addressing.
Yes, you didn’t mention Bass Ackwards at any time, that is what most disturbed me. You took it as anything you could dissect without regard. Wanting to understand people matters and when people don’t want to understand there is nothing one can do about it.
You’re still my friend even if I’m not yours. That’s your problem not mine. And I have no doubts you’ll get out of this one a better man than before.
For those of you who can get past the nihilistic pedantic sophistry, this might interest…
http://www.geocities.com/amitabha48vows/prajna.htm
Thanks Ames for 285… true sorrow / remorse means to never repeat the transgression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism
C
I think everybody on KCRA, Channel 3 news tonight was drunk. Many people having problems with a kind of ‘craziness’ going on inside. Maybe we can all forgive each other, and hope that things will become clearer some time soon, so we will know what to do next. I am open. Chop wood, carry water.
KA
Thank you. All this comes as a surprise.
Adding Dream Catcher’s and Another Voice’s posts allow me to express what I think I can offer.
I have time, I can work and some money, not much but as much as I can.
The issue if we could be serious about considering such action is getting a group of people to talk things much more deeply than we’ve done so far. Ames, Old Fish, Old FOF, X ray, Vena, Joseph, there are many serious people here. Serious, mostly American and diplomats are needed. Specially diplomats which I happen not to be.
Once they know what force they have, have talked with the lawyers and have communicated to the rest of us where we stand, the first people to address would be the Fellowship of Friends. They should be talked with before being sued and if they were willing to give huge steps to change everything, including closing it down that should be considered. Two other layers at least should be consulted besides Mr. Greene.
I have repeatedly given my e-mail: tablut@une.net.co and would be happy to coordinate what ever I can coordinate.Bare in mind that I do not know people but I would love to meet many. I would even say that we are far from even having to give any money. We need to know a lot of things before that step is necessary. What we do need to know is who and how many and how much are people willing to give and do. I have no problem in collecting names, amounts that people would consider giving if they came to agree with the main principles to be followed most of which would need to be finally approved and presented by the lawyer who knew what he needed to win or at least bet his soul on it.
I would even say people could initially give only half of what they would be willing to give and only enough toget the process going, the lawyer thoroughly exposed to the issues and understand his conditions. Everything open, everything transparent and everyone knowing exactly how much was needed and what was done with it besides everything else that needed to be known.
Wether it is a ning sight or a perfectly private communication with the many on a list, is up to those who know about these things.
There are many who need to keep perfectly invisible about their participation on such a thing so these things are delicate.
It does seem necessary to go underblog for further communications on this matter so if you wish to send me your e-mail or tell me who you’ve chosen to trust that I can send her or him, mine, and send each other copies of what we need to consider, it may be a way to start.
Even the next step is difficult but surely we can figure it out step by step and when we are ready, we can run.
I thank you for having even come this far, from the bottom of my heart. Even if only the three of you who are already pushing me on the blog get to me or whoever is chosen to work with this, it is an amazing and great step.
292 wakeuplittlesuzywakeup
“I am open. Chop wood, carry water.”
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Me too. Eat your food, wash your dish.
Thanks Tiger for the following question.
A (long) work in progress for me). And to forgive myself….
One question I have for all of us here is, forgiveness is often stated to very powerful. Can we bring ourselves to forgive RB for all his well documented transgressions, and could this forgiveness enact a change, not only in ourselves, but on an external level that no law suit could ever possibly accomplish?
Forgiveness to all and everything.
This is a repost in two parts — attempting to avoid spam filter.
My apologies if it shows up twice: This may be of interest for those who can get past the sophistry and nihilism:
http://www.geocities.com/amitabha48vows/prajna.htm
And thanks Ames for 285… true sorrow / remorse never repeats the transgression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism
C
“For me, the idea of forgiveness is incredibly complicated and subtle, but one conclusion I have come to is this. Just as one cannot truly help another without first being asked for help, I don’t think one can forgive another without first being asked for forgiveness.” Ames
No, I don’t agree with this because of personal experience I’ve had with forgiveness. And IMO forgiveness does not necessarily begin with bringing us all to the same human level. I’ll explain briefly.
I’ve mentioned having a ’sociopath/psychopath’ in my life as a child. He committed several murders and they were close to me and gruesome. I actually forgave him two years ago after dealing with it for many decades. He died decades ago, alone, in a lock up for the criminally insane (one reason I hate the glib ‘you are insane’ jibes). And even if he were alive he would not be asking for my forgiveness!! hahahaha. Maybe someone merely abusive and dysfunctional would (as did happen also) but not him because he actually was insane not just neurotic. Before the murders I loved this man (OK, now I’m putting myself out naked because the parallels to Robert Burton are haunting, – without the murder – plus I never had a real love for RB)(nevertheless, there are humiliating parallels).
Still, I did love him and my unresolved love/hate/fear stayed with me, haunted me, until the moment of forgiveness. And there was a moment. Maybe a couple of them – I can’t go into it, but believe me, there is forgiveness and even love. I had a lot of help and worked at it actively for 12 years. It created changes in my body too – oddly could almost feel the fizzing away of barriers inside, and that is painful. (It coincided with Trigeminal Neuralgia, which I had a successful surgery for last year)
The first time I addressed it I told ‘the secret’ at an alanon meeting. I lost control telling and had aggressive convulsive racking sobs – I hate doing that. So I never went back, but it was a first step I see now.
One thing I’ve learned is that forgiveness gives a picture of reality. This person was incurable in this lifetime. Is there more than this lifetime??we cannot know for sure. He was situated correctly –in jail, and expressing anything to him directly was futile. For me, forgiveness just happened, and it just happened years after I gave up on being able to ‘forgive’ – you know, thinking I could be some sort of nice noble human and forgive. The road lead thru much darker passages and the forgiveness was an unexpected treasure.
‘go underblog” Elena – go girl! You have invented a new word and phrase. I want to use this in a sentence in my real life “I need to go underblog with this”…”hey, maybe we should go underblog” …”seeding the underblog”…..
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Uno, if I visited OH I would wish you the best. Are you on the GF? If so would you say hi? — I’m so curious.
298
Thanks for sharing, thanks so much.
Hug your self and be the best friend you can be.
For yourself….and others.
296 ‘ton
Hardly got started and had to stop and say thanks. These two excerpts(and what was between them) were extraordinary for me.
“As the magnification increases, the flesh does begin to dissolve. Muscle fiber now takes on a fully crystaline aspect. We can see that it is made of long, spiral molecules in orderly array. And all of these molecules are swaying like wheat in the wind, connected with one another and held in place by invisible waves that pulse many trillions of times a second.”
* * *
“Somewhere within that emptiness, we know is a nucleus. We scan the space, and there it is, a tiny dot. At last, we have discovered something hard and solid, a reference point. But no! as we move closer to the nucleus, it too begins to dissolve. It too is nothing more than an oscillating field, waves of rhythm. Inside the nucleus are other organized fields: protons, neutrons, even smaller “particles.” Each of these, upon our approach, also dissolve into pure rhythm.”
***************
I was transported back 40 years ago, sitting near a river and looking out at the forest and mountains on the other side. Large dosage of pharmaceutical grade LSD had already opened the necessary channels, and I watched as everything seemed to rise slightly and then slowly began to sway in a rhythmic dance (swaying like wheat in the wind). I looked down at my body and saw the same thing. Everything had the same pulse, the same beautiful dance. I knew and have never completely forgotten that this was really what was always going on. I knew this was no hallucination. This was some dance of energy that made up everything.
Elena, I have a friend who contacted me and is willing to set up a ‘ning’. I cannot administer it because of time constraints. I might be able to find an anonymous administrator. The administrator would be important as a vigilant guardian. But I guess it will be set up in my name (don’t know why exactly). I suggest that forums such as “financial impropriety” and “sexual harassment” are set up. Other brainstorming can be addressed as blog entries. The GF is not the place becuause it is a place of reunion. More help may come your way.
_____________
Another Name – Thank you. Its so embarrassing but sometimes one just has to bite one’s toes and do it. Nice of you to comment. ;-)
I had already gone to bed and remembered I had not yet thanked Lauralupe and James M. for your beautiful posts, so I came back to thank you.
………..
This amazing step that we are attempting to take I would again like to offer to Ilene and the mother of the student whose names I don’t know. May they rest in peace.
- A Tiger – Ames – 298 ak0aka0ka
akOakaOka – thank you so much for that post
I have been thinking about forgiveness for the last several hours, ever since I first read A Tiger and then Ames posts. I finally took a break and began reading the link from ‘ton.
Just the word ‘forgiveness’ seems to have an intensity and power. It seems to be a theme that keeps entering my life lately in a variety of ways, and then here it was on the blog. Like I said, I have been reading and trying to put together this post for a couple of hours. I started it on ‘notebook’ and then would leave it and then come back to it, over and over. Excuse me if I ramble.
I suspect that if we think about it as forgiving the man Robert Burton and the things he has done, we will have difficulty approaching it. Perhaps in order to look at the idea we will need to leave him out of it at least for now. I know this may sound strange, but it is what comes into my mind.
Ames – I like the idea of trying to prepare ourselves for forgiveness. However when I read KA’s post I knew somewhere inside that she is correct. At perhaps its highest level, it does not have anything to do with the other person.
There is the idea that perhaps what we need most is to forgive ourselves. While not easy to do, this somehow seems more straightforward to me than the idea of forgiving others, and yet something tells me the two cannot truly be separated.
It seems that quite often when we think about forgiving someone, we need to be very careful about what is at work within us. On the every day sort of levels I think it is often just a form of vanity which serves to separate us even further from each other. Someone has done something and we decide to forgive them. We will take the higher ground, so to speak, which often just secretly masks a part of us that wishes or thinks they are better or more spiritual than the other.
It feels like what KA is speaking of is quite a different matter. A good friend of mine attended a retreat and seminar that was titled “Radical Forgiveness”. It was an incest issue that was being dealt with. No matter what has happened it just feels like this level of forgiveness that KA is speaking of is the forgiveness that we need to approach both for ourselves and for everyone.
Although it was spoken in a specific instance, I wonder if Jesus was speaking for and about all of us when he said.
“Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
I would like to hear more of what people have to share on this subject. Thanks again ‘A Tiger’ for bringing it up.
304 – James Mclemore
When I reread my post and say that the highest level of forgiveness has ‘nothing to do with the other person’, it sounds confusing to me. It certainly would have to have something to do with them, or the idea of forgiveness would not have arisen. I think what I meant to say is that what we need to do for ourselves to bring it about has nothing to do with the other person.
Did I make it more confusing??
KA (#25-298 or thereabouts),
My best guess is that we are not talking about the same thing, or maybe we are talking about two different aspects of the same thing. You appear to be talking about “letting go”, of an attachment or resentment, which can be ‘done’ unilaterally (change of internal attitude or state). I was referring to something that implied reconciliation, a meeting or harmonizing of two parts to create something new. Darn language! Just as the Esqimaux are supposed to have dozens of words for different types of snow, I propose we should have at least a hundred different words for the different types and degrees of love, and a dozen for forgiveness, at least. Anyway, I’ll keep thinking about your example. Thanks.
Nuthead, as you will see from my previous posts as well, I haven’t given up using ‘work language’ when I think it is useful. I happen to think that the law of three and the law of seven are valid short-hand descriptions of objective patterns, whereas, for example, the ‘body type’ information is not objective for me, and was severely abused in the Fellowship of Friends anyway. So I pick and choose. Most readers understand what I’m talking about, even if they don’t like the associations to the FoF; thus it does save space and time. The great thing about the blog format is that you can skip my posts! Wish I could have done that with some of those ‘angles’ in meetings…
on Free Speach…
302 ak0aka0ka—-I assume this friend is an ex-student who reads the blog who doesn’t wish to be publicly associated with this?
Re: ~253 Vena
‘Do you think that Robert Burton’s obsession with license plates might possibly have something to do with the
possibility that he may end up making them in prison? Just think of all the shocks he will find there!’
Yes, this is likely, and also, it may have something to do with the metal plate he has in his head.
Another version:
This one is for you Unoanimo.
It describes your experience
and the experience of being in the Fellowship of Friends:
Johnny Cash –
Ring of Fire 2:32:
http://youtube.com/v/72qsutDT8RQ
For those who can not play the videos here is the lyric content:
Ring Of Fire Lyrics:
Love is a burning thing
and it makes a fiery ring
bound by wild desire
I fell in to a ring of fire…
I fell in to a burning ring of fire
I went down, down, down
and the flames went higher.
And it burns, burns, burns
the ring of fire
the ring of fire.
The taste of love is sweet
when hearts like ours meet
I fell for you like a child
oh, but the fire went wild..
I fell in to a burning ring of fire…..
[etc]
Johnny Cash
298 ak0aka0ka
Thanks for your post.
It took my breath away.
We are so silly and stupid to react only to type on some digital non existent page spinning somewhere out there in virtual reality, while there are real people behind these keyboards, some with unbelievably traumatic experiences fueling their communications.
I will react differently to your posts now, with a different sense of acknowledgement.
Yours,
Bass
298 ak0aka0ka
304 – my own post
It feels this morning that an apology is in order. This may make no sense to you, and may be only for me. Your post must have struck something deep inside of me. As I said, I had started a post on forgiveness before I read yours. The subject has entered my life on many levels lately. I had pretty much decided not to post on the subject but then your story had such a strong effect upon me. The thing is, it was a much stronger effect than I even knew last night. It pierced me somewhere. But, it was one of those times where I would have been better served to just let whatever was happening inside sink in so I could learn something, and not try to speak. Instead I wrote that rambling, fragmented post. Something about it bothered me last night before I went to bed. I awoke this morning in an agitated state, after a lot of strange dreams that I am sure had something to do with some nerve your story had struck. When I reread my post it just felt that I had followed what was a very courageous, powerful, gut-wrenching personal experience for you, with a fragmented collage of ideas that I obviously have not digested yet. Thank you again for sharing your story.
Forgiveness.
I don’t think I shall ever forgive Robert Burton for his crimes. I have no intention of having reconciliation with him or anyone who supports him. He shows no remorse for his behavior which continues unabated to this day and is getting worse. I can only forgive myself for allowing myself to be manipulated by him and his criminal organization. By forgiving myself, I am empowered and released from victimhood. I have no reservations stating that Robert Burton has corrupted the fourth way to satisfy his own greed and lust without concern for those he has harmed. As in the novel 1984, he is attempting to control the future by manipulating the history of the past with his insane interpretations of cave paintings and other artistic works. This is the work of a despot. His behavior is evil and must be stopped. I am a father and have two children. I would do anything to protect them and the children of others. It is up to parents to make the world a better place for their offspring.
I want my children to be proud of me.
Dear Elena:
In one of my first posts I stated that I did not want to be a party to any lawsuit. With the help of my therapist, I am willing to reconsider and go public with my identity and my story once the lawsuit was in motion. I feel jittery inside typing these words. Once a fund is established, I will gratefully donate with my divorce settlement money. Let’s find out how much we need to retain a lawyer and work on it. Keep me posted.
I pray to Allah that the IRS and the INS can do the job for us and spare me the humiliation of revealing myself. What happened to me haunts me still.
Dear James:
It is our conscience that agitates our mind and awakens us from the deepest sleep.
WhaleRider –
Thank you
wow, thank you bloggers! this place is becoming more and more human, people are taking off the armors, I am feeling connected with all of you almost for the first time in months, we have something worthwhile to do, something powerful.
We are strong together, as we cleanse ourselves from automatic behaviors clothed in anger and revenge feelings.
It’s time for restitution and for me Whalerider is the symbol of the soul who will be completely healed.
This morning I saw a rainbow, it was of a soft light because the sun was still quite tender, it could be the first rainbow I see in my life early in the AM.
That’s a sign of deep healing for me, for us!
The insidious thing is that it often takes many years for people, through a process of unlearning, to discover how thoroughly fucked they got. By that time any legal claim they may have had against the Fellowship of Friends is gone. It’s the ones getting out NOW or RECENTLY that MIGHT have claims.
But new Fellowship of Friends refugees’ anger–which, paradoxically, could heal them and lead them to seek legal remedy–is usually deeply buried, enshrouded in ideological taboo as “negative emotion.” So they leave quietly and passively, and their ability to redress the wrongs done them slowly evaporates.
215 Bistro Fundraiser
Thank you for posting the link to the Fellowship of Friends Canons.
I skimmed through them and wonder why I never saw such document when I joined.
I had to kind of laugh :( at this:
“The Fellowship, therefore, teaches its member how to pay and how to make right efforts.” oh yeah…
From PD Ouspensky, out of contest:
“Behind ANY (caps mine) negative emotion lies one’s permission , some kind of wrong thinking”
now I know how I became captive…
“Renaissance, the main energy accumulator of the Fellowship…”
I want to say that when I went to Renaissance I felt I lost my work almost entirely, I was fatigued most of the time, stressed for money and in a survival mode. The difference between me and the resident in a rotting trailer home was the I could dressed up nicely and went to fellowship Functions and had lots of books around.
I hesitate to do this, as I feel pretty vulnerable here now, but I would like to talk about this issue of “redressing wrongs” as a New Fellowship Refugee (I like that term, refugee, NFR). For me, and I imagine it is different for each one of us, I feel a deep shame and humiliation at having buried my conscience years ago when I first began to realize all was not right. So it is hard to think of seeking legal remedy when it is myself I am angry with. I cannot buffer the fact that I brought most of this on myself, by being afraid, too passive, too lazy, not good enough to wrench myself free years ago. By suing the Fellowship I would somehow be denying that personal responsibility. It feels dishonest to me. It also feels venal to accept money out of it.
Dear Whalerider,
I long to meet you although we, like so many others here, are already together and the actualizing of sharing a meal together will only be the confirmation of a unity that is already there. Something like the last supper but in the first supper!
As I wrote to a friend yesterday, “We will still meet joy, pride and dignity and will meet them with profound humility.”
It troubles me that your divorce is imminent. I believe that if some of us could take a few minutes every day for maybe a month, and talk with your wife in our hearts and transmit to her your love for her, she would maybe reconsider her decision and if not she might at least leave in a state in which your children will be much protected and therefor, so will you. Something like the collective prayer that was done some time ago with a Hawaiian name, for anyone who wishes to make the love-effort.
If a whole lake can be cured of contamination with the love of people, why not our marriages?
…sorry, I need to clarify the above – these feelings of responsibility apply only to myself. I have no idea if it applies to anyone else, nor am I condemning the idea of legal remedy for others.
Regarding starting a blog or social network:
There is a link on the top of your person page, and likely elsewhere, at Ning that says:
‘Create Your Own Social Network!’
Also, at:
http://wordpress.com/signup/
you can start your own blog.
the page states:
‘Get another WordPress.com blog in seconds…There is no limit to the number of blogs you can have, so create to your heart’s content, but blog responsibly.’
You have to go through signing up with these entities to get services so anonymity is not possible, although, minimal information is requested.
Wouldn’t You Like To Know
319 Elena
“It troubles me that your divorce is imminent. I believe that if some of us could take a few minutes every day for maybe a month, and talk with your wife in our hearts and transmit to her your love for her, she would maybe reconsider her decision…”
That’s a scary presumption. It’s not an outsider’s place to transmit other people’s love, if not impossible. Putting myself in WR’s wife position (in imagination of course) I’d be pretty pissed off if a group of strangers (or non-strangers) tried to pull that on me. Isn’t that what RB did to create many of the bizarre relationship match-ups in the FOF?
Take hold tightly, let go lightly.
319 Elena
Loving someone often isn’t enough.
304 James
“Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
Thanks for this. I asked the question about forgiveness, not in the sense of dismissing RB’s transgression, but mainly to emphasis our power as a group in remebering all the good that we experienced as fof members.
I think there is benefit to concentrate on the positive aspects of our search for the truth, as well as those negative incidents that are well documented on these pages.
I do think RB is a ’sick’ man, and needs to ‘pay’ for his cold and calculated behaviour. I do support the effort to bring legal action against the RB and the fof, especially those members ‘at the top’ who knowingly continue to support RB and his devious actions.
For me, forgiveness is a necessary element in any action I take
against RB in order to ensure that I don’t become like the ‘disease’ being exorcized.
Whalerider- I applaud you courage!
thanks everyone for making this such a grand place to visit.
gratitude ka and veramente for being.
unoanimo, I was thinking of you as I watched this video today, as corsets seem an apt methaphor for painbody…
my very best wishes, I feel you must be shedding yours, the last post was really powerful for me.
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl5BcBsMPkQ
James McLemore 304
Dear James, your use of the phrase “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do” reminded of an older post of mine, originally addressed to Another Name. I retrieved it as it seems to relate to the subject.
Dear Another Name, I want to make it clear that my post was not meant to belittle the feelings of people who have suffered and are suffering because of the fof. They were just thoughts that had been circling around my brain for the past few weeks and I felt compelled to send them out through the ether. My story is very personal, and it’s just the way it is. Our inner life is colored by all sorts of environmental programming, mechanical tendencies, family history. I now see a bit more clearly where I was coming from when I joined the fellowship and what that experience brought to my journey. I could not have written in the same way around the time that I left, since it took me a long time to digest what I had been through. So, it’s all good, we sing our little songs and it all goes to enrich the melody and rhythm of the blog.
I also felt it might be helpful to write something a little upbeat, as lately there have been a lot of posts of the “how terrible, how could I, how stupid was I, I feel so guilty” genre. These are all true feelings, but one can also find solace in what Jesus said while bleeding to death on the cross:
‘Father forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.’
Human stupidity is not a singular trait of the fellowship of friends; as many have pointed out we are pretty dense creatures that have difficulty seeing what is in front of their nose (or their nose, or what is seeing the nose). Just take a look at the state of the planet right now. You probably wanted to escape that madness, and fell into another. Still, your intention was and is Good, and that’s what really counts at the end of the day. Your inner teacher loves you because you are turning around, taking a good look, allowing your own conscience to raise you on the cross for a while.
I am totally with you when you say that pain has a message. One of the most powerful things one can do for oneself is to become aware of all the pain locked inside one’s body, listen to it, give it attention, love, understanding, express it, share it, finally maybe even transform it into something beautiful. Healing is possible, it takes strenght and courage, but you have no lack of either. I know you will be fine, just take all the time you need and keep loving yourself.
In my opinion, one of the biggest screw-ups of the fof methods is that students are taught to be present and not in imagination. We often take that formatorily and start thinking that all inner dialogue is not good, that our thoughts are “just the I’s”, that we don’t need to think about what is around us and that our work only consists in taking in impressions. But conscience grows with the use of active imagination, which is not taught in that school. It takes active imagination to be creative, to envision the consequences of one’s actions, to put oneself into another person’s shoes, to realize that every human is equal, to go beyond boundaries, superficiality, illusions, indifference. And it is not something we simply possess, but a faculty that needs to be nurtured and developed.
As you slowly come to terms with all the things you have failed to see in the past, your vision will adjust and you’ll be able to focus on a much bigger picture. As our beloved Bullshit Meter was saying, innumerable beings are suffering on this planet, and I’ll venture to say that the planet itself is suffering big time. One of the many ways to start feeling better about oneself is by making a difference, no matter how small, perhaps smile to a stranger, put out some bird food, pay attention to the bum on the corner of the street.
Suffering is good, and joy is even better. We are all learning how to get there.
Live peacefully always with love, but do not flee from suffering;
It clears the eye from the eye’s dust, it cleans the soul from the soul’s rust.
One does not die from suffering, but one becomes yet stronger,
Later the heart that’s recovered will bear its pain more easily.
Ah, do not mew! Your father has never endured the ones who mew…
It’s much better, my son that you water your eyes with bitter tears
And continue on your own way. Let it be full of many stones,
But if inside your soul there is longing for good, kindness and love,
You will not tire, but you will walk and you will rise up the mountain.
For that someone needs a spirit, for that there is no need for wings.
You must be kind in everything, which kind person died from hunger?
There’s no exile for what is true – why keep silent against the lies?
Yet around us there are people, who bend their waists when it’s needed,
Who go ranting when it’s needed, shut up or smile when it’s needed,
They point fingers when it’s needed…Don’t be in life so immature,
You, understand, now from this head, do not forget, never, my son:
That kindness is only that which never changes no matter what,
It has white face; but yet never seven or eight colored linings…
(from “To My Son”, by Armenian poet Baruyr Sevag)
Hey diddle diddle the cat and the fiddle
The cow jumped over the moon
The little dog laughed to see such a sight
and the dish ran away with the spoon
Sharon,
I appreciate that you harbor anger at yourself for being “too afraid, too passive, too lazy” to free yourself years ago, that you have “deep shame and humilation” for not pulling out sooner. But let me suggest that you deserve less blame than you are willing to accept.
Having been subjected to a thought reform environment, which is what the Fellowship of Friends is, means having your ability to evaluate, and hence your ability to act, impaired by specific and identifiable techniques known to psychology. When you look back you see choices that you made, but you may not appreciate the extent to which your ability to choose was compromised.
When we see what we did, it is natural to own what we did, even if at first it feels dissonant to do so. We change our attitudes to reduce the dissonance. We change our concept of who we are to reduce the dissonance. It just happens that way and science knows about this. So long as the strictures on our choices within a thought reform environment remain invisible to us, our past seems to be writ in our own actions and we do not blame others for what we did. But when those strictures become apparent, as when we learn of intentional deceptions made and reliances encouraged, to induce us to make choices, then blaming those who intentionally deceived us seems wholly appropriate.
I would like to bring a subject of suffering to a discussion. There is a common attitude among students that suffering is good for you if you accept and transform it. Many students are suffering in endurance and learn to believe that this is “their gift”. “Suffering is cleansing”. When suffering is accepted as necessary for one’s evolution, the teacher who causes this suffering appears to be “a helper”. So are the gods who of coarse are causing a lot of suffering to people such as sicknesses, accidents, divorces etc. – shocks from Influence C. I think this is one of the main difference between students and ex-students – the different attitude towards suffering.
I would like to hear your thoughts on that. Thanks!
veramente 317 wrote: “Thank you for posting the link to the Fellowship of Friends Canons. I skimmed through them and wonder why I never saw such document when I joined.”
One thing that’s completely missing in the document is any focus on the idea of accountability — e.g., accountability on the part of Robert Burton or any of the “ministers” should any harm come to members of the group.
Words, and missing words, are important. Someone pointed out earlier in the blog that the word “lying” is missing from the Fellowship discussions, or that the word is usually discussed only in passing and only superficially, and then people quickly move on to other topics — even though it was presented by Ouspensky as one of the five main obstacles to awakening. (You’d think it would have more importance, given that.)
Because if we talk about the idea of “lying” sincerely, we begin to realize that we are lying every time we say we “know” that the Fellowship is in ark, that Burton is “conscious,” and that we are “lucky,” and so on.
So, another word that’s missing is “accountability” — even though being held accountable for one’s actions — and especially when our actions cause suffering in others — is a major part of “seeing ourselves.” And therefore, one would think, a big part of awakening. So, you can see why accountability is never discussed in the Fellowship, because if someone did discuss it, our attention would immediately be directed toward Burton and the suffering that he has caused. And continues to cause.
Responsibility is another word that’s missing. Who is responsible for the welfare of the members of the group? They’re on their own? Well, of course they’re on their own. Because “no one can do the work for us.”
Associated Press 11/16/07
Russian doomsday cult holed up in cave
29 members threaten to blow selves up if officials try to remove them
MOSCOW – Officials were talking Friday with more than two dozen doomsday cult members holed up in a snowy forest near the Volga River to await the end of the world, which their leader says will come in spring.
The cult members have threatened to blow themselves up with about 100 gallons of stockpiled gasoline if authorities forced them out of what officials described as a cave or bunker near the village of Nikoskoye, about 400 miles southeast of Moscow, said regional spokesman Yevgeny Guseynov.
“Any forceful action is dangerous,” Guseynov said, but he added that doctors and rescuers were nearby and trying to coax the cult members to leave.
Self-declared prophet Pyotr Kuznetsov, who established his True Russian Orthodox Church after he split with the official church, blessed his followers before sending them into the cave earlier this month, but he did not join them himself.
He was undergoing psychiatric evaluation Friday, a day after he was charged with setting up a religious organization associated with violence, Guseynov said.
The 29 people — including four children, one only 18 months old — had stocked the cave with food and other supplies.
Monks tried to negotiate
On Thursday, black-clad Russian Orthodox monks carefully descended into snow-covered gully to try to make contact with the cult, but members refused to speak with clergy. They were exchanging letters with Kuznetsov, however, and were in contact with doctors and officials, who promised food or medical supplies if needed.
Most of the adults in the cave were women, Russian newspaper Izvestia reported.
Kuznetsov, 43, a trained engineer who comes from a deeply religious family, declared himself a prophet several years ago, left his family and settled in Nikolskoye. He began writing books, borrowing from a mixture of established beliefs, and visited monasteries both in Russia and Belarus, recruiting followers, Guseynov said.
Kuznetsov said his group believed that, in the afterlife, they would be judging whether others deserved heaven or hell, Izvestia reported Friday. Followers of his group were not allowed to watch television, listen to the radio or handle money, media reports said.
Anna Vabishchevich said her 41-year-old son, Alexander, and his wife and two teenage daughters were among the cult members. She said she was sending two relatives from Belarus to try to convince him to at least send the girls home.
UBC bar codes seen as satanic
She told The Associated Press that her son, a railroad worker, came under Kuznetsov’s influence several years ago. He stopped eating food packaged with the universal product code — which the cult regards as the mark of the Antichrist, she said.
“My son was kind and now he is mentally ill, it’s like he is hypnotized,” she said between sobs.
Alexander Dvorkin of the Moscow-based independent Center of Religious Studies said Kuznetsov’s followers were in serious danger and “any wrong move” by authorities could cost lives.
“Their minds are being manipulated, they are under the strong influence of their leader,” Dvorkin said.
He said there were about 10 similar cults in Russia, most nominally Christian and with members living in isolation. So far, he said, authorities have done little or nothing about them.
Russian Orthodox Church spokesman Georgy Ryabov said the emergence of Kuznetsov’s cult was a consequence of “the absence of a system of spiritual and moral education” in Russia.
“All Christians of Russia have to pray for them so they awaken and understand their mistake,” Ryabov said.
Hello Sheik, why are you censoring me? You blocked my two posts yesterday.
If you still have those posts saved please publish them. If you still refuse, at least please reply my e-mail.
329 somebody: “I would like to bring a subject of suffering to a discussion. There is a common attitude among students that suffering is good for you if you accept and transform it.”
The idea that we can “transform our suffering” (which probably means something quite a bit different to different people) is an idea that I didn’t leave behind when I left the Fellowship. It’s an idea that you can find in many places, in many books, and all over the world. So depending on how someone might interpret the idea, I personally think it’s a healthy was to see our lives in relation to our own </b?suffering.
However:
1) One of the biggest myths in the Fellowship was that somehow students suffered more than lowly life people, who lived their lives in comfort, while neglecting their spirtitual well-being. We usually don’t state it that way outright, but that was the attitude. And what this does is present the illusion (or delusion), that any suffering we experience in the Fellowship is divine suffering inflicted on us by the “will of the gods,” and that if we leave the Fellowship, we will not have the opportunity to transform this divine suffering.
2) Often, very often, our attitude in the Fellowship about someone else’s suffering was much different than the attitude about our own suffering. This idea that others will somehow benefit from any suffering we inflict upon them, because we are in a “conscious school” and this is their task to transform any suffering they receive — THIS is a very dangerous idea. And it explains a lot about the Fellowship and why so many people suffer by joing this cult.
Quick correction to my previous post:
“So depending on how someone might interpret the idea, I personally think it’s a healthy attitude in relation to our own suffering.”
veramente/317
“Thank you for posting the link to the Fellowship of Friends Canons. I skimmed through them and wonder why I never saw such document when I joined.”
I suspect it is because they were not produced for the membership to see. Instead, they were produced for the purpose of making the Fellowship appear to be a religion to taxing authorities.
293 Elena
They should be talked with before being sued and if they were willing to give huge steps to change everything, including closing it down that should be considered.
–Very naive. Like Chamberlain’s “Peace in our time.”
It does seem necessary to go underblog for further communications on this matter so if you wish to send me your e-mail or tell me who you’ve chosen to trust that I can send her or him, mine, and send each other copies of what we need to consider, it may be a way to start.
–Please verify beyond doubt the identity of those to whom you allow access. Not easy in cyberspace.
______________________________________
298 ak0aka0ka
thinking I could be some sort of nice noble human and forgive.
304 James McLemore
Someone has done something and we decide to forgive them. We will take the higher ground, so to speak, which often just secretly masks a part of us that wishes or thinks they are better or more spiritual than the other.
—Exactly. Most of what we consider “forgiveness” of other people is ego. Others do not need our forgiveness. God (choose your own terminology), like the sun, offers infinite forgiveness to all without conditions. We need to transcend our own inability to be that. “Others” do not exist. Does the thumb need to forgive the index finger?
____________________________________________
316 Veronicapoe
It’s the ones getting out NOW or RECENTLY that MIGHT have claims.
–True-the statute of limitations is an issue for those who left years ago. And it’s the ones who have suffered harms the law considers compensible who would have to be plaintiffs. Those who were assaulted are better plaintiffs.
______________________________________________
318 Sharon
By suing the Fellowship I would somehow be denying that personal responsibility. It feels dishonest to me. It also feels venal to accept money out of it.
–It’s rare that any of us is completely innocent of all complicity. It isn’t either/or. You did have some responsibility. Good for you for recognizing it. You also were abused and lied to, and with the greatest respect, you may have some processing to do to fully free yourself of the vestiges of fear and guilt with which you’ve been programmed.
___________________________________________
323 brucelevy
319 Elena
Loving someone often isn’t enough.
–Wise words, Bruce.
To echo the already beautiful voices on forgiveness.
When we come to the frontiers of positive emotions a whole new world opens up to our vision. Forgiveness is an aspect of compassion and I think gratitude is too, although it is so big that it almost stands on its own. Positive emotions are so great that for us they stand on their own and simply allow us to breath in and out of them. That is how it was for me and is when I am well enough, as if one breathed forgiveness or compassion and above both of them, inmense gratitude. One would think that at least the gratitude that invades one so deeply belonged to one, but not even. They ARE in themselves and one simply shares in their grace with profound joy. Only a madman would call so much beauty his own.
Surely it is different for each of us, this is how it was for me.
Being……in ……non judgement leads to positive emotions. To walk the steps of one’s own false personality to the doors of hell and look straight into the face of the devil within one, the miserable devil that life made of one convinced that one had to make something of one’s self at the cost of others and be able to embrace him with infinite compassion and still walk out with him within one, knowing it is there to be checked for ever, canning like scent but impotent before love and know that that same struggle is the struggle for each of us, that each of those steps are necessary for one to understand that competing with others TO BE is the ardous step before understanding that what one is really competing for is to be WITH others at his cost.
Redemption comes from the understanding that behind the selfishness with which false personality raises itself at the cost of others is the longing to belong to the whole. The longing of false personality to be loved by the world transforms into the being part of the world in true personality without separations.
To be loved by the world when one has invested all of one’s self in the few identifications one had not yet resolved in the previous round is not easy for the world. Yes, false personality was willing to love some and step on the rest because they were not good enough. Too rich, too poor, too fat, too thin, too American, too Colombian, to black and even the day was unlovable because it was too cold or too hot.
False personality was delineated by too many judgements discarding the many who it was not begging to be loved by for whom on the contrary, it was willing to kill for.
The lovelessnes of false personality is sobering, it is the most sobering impression one could look at and to know that it is one’s own is even more sobering. With what false pride could one ever judge anyone else again?
Judgement is unfettered suffering. To be able to observe the suffering of life without judging it, is compassion. And to stop people from the suffering that they are causing to themselves and others is manifested compassion. Law on earth, real law, is an extended hand of compassion.
This world in which we happen to be is filled with suffering but it is also filled with tools to deal with it. The best and only real tool, is not running away from it but finding solutions.
One does not need to forgive when one knows that the only difference between a criminal and one’s self is that one has not had the bad luck to be put under that many temptations in such tender moment and that if he fell to them it is because any one of us could have fallen. What civilized conditions are meant to offer the individual, is too have less opportunities to be less than a human being. A full human being uncapable of hurting others.
We are far from being that civilized, so there are plenty of jobs available for all of us to belong.
Dear Veronica,
I hope you can guide us through the next steps of this ordeal in the underblog.
Thank you for your presence here.
Elena
329 somebody
I would like to bring a subject of suffering to a discussion. There is a common attitude among students that suffering is good for you if you accept and transform it. Many students are suffering in endurance and learn to believe that this is “their gift”. “Suffering is cleansing”. When suffering is accepted as necessary for one’s evolution, the teacher who causes this suffering appears to be “a helper”. So are the gods who of coarse are causing a lot of suffering to people such as sicknesses, accidents, divorces etc. – shocks from Influence C. I think this is one of the main difference between students and ex-students – the different attitude towards suffering.
I would like to hear your thoughts on that. Thanks!
———————————–
Somebody –
The problem of explaining the contradiction of suffering in a world created and/or run by “Good” supernatural forces is a major challenge to religions or all kinds.
Looking at our own Judeo-Christian culture, originally the Jews, as gods chosen ones, were not able to reconcile their misfortunes with being the creator’s favorites. The concept of an afterlife in which they would be rewarded or punished developed as a reaction to the incompatibility of their piousness and their misfortunes. Surely they should have better personal fates and a better fate as a nation if they followed the laws of god as they did. This is not intended to be some encompassing description, only a snippet to illustrate how the FOF is firmly grounded in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic soil and that its attitude towards suffering is rather unimaginative. As has been pointed out several times before it was our vanity that swallowed the bait when we were indoctrinated into the school and vanity towards suffering is what characterizes our supposed ‘transformation’ of it. I have thought, over the last years, that Robert has been waiting and wanting for bad things to happen in order to have material to spin into patches for his web. The school teaches us to personalize what happens to us and attribute causes to higher forces rather than wearily deal with the laws of probability and cause and effect. Robert is a master at this and where we are taught to ‘go against life’ it is easy to see how we can be seduced into a bogus relationship with an imaginary higher power that is , ironically, all to common in mainstream life.
Quite a few posts on the blog, whether Whaleriders heart rending suffering or Unoanimos Rilke-esque self indulgence, carry that same ‘Its all about me’ coloring that made us such easy prey for Burton in the first place.
There is no doubt that going through suffering is challenging and can manifest qualities that are latent in an easy life, however, there is no reason to attribute this suffering to the hand of god; nor is there any reason to feel special because of it.
I dare someone to get a ‘Shit Happens’ bumper sticker and put it on Robert’s Merc.
Bruce, who knows, you may be absolutely right. These are not things I’ve ever tried but I heard sometime ago that people met around a lake and prayed for it to heal and something marvellous worked out. I’m sorry I don’t have the details, all my gossip is like that and when I remember some details when I finish the story I remember it happened to someone else.
Nevertheless, the intention is not ill meant and if I were to simply try to convey to this woman the love I felt Whalerider has expressed on this blog for her I don’t think I would be doing her the slightest harm.
Maybe it is for me and not for you. Thank you for keeping a look out.
335/Just Another Voice
And it’s the ones who have suffered harms the law considers compensible who would have to be plaintiffs.
Under California law, an individual’s deceptive recruitment into a thought reform environment is tortious and, therefore, compensible.
http://www.fordgreene.com/lit/molko-46-cal.3d-1092.html
#329: So are the gods who of coarse are causing a lot of suffering to people such as sicknesses, accidents, divorces etc. – shocks from Influence C. I think this is one of the main difference between students and ex-students – the different attitude towards suffering.
I am not in the Fellowship of Friends anymore so I am an ‘ex-student’. However, God or Gods causing people’s suffering is the Old Patriarchal type thinking that continues in many churches today. So the ‘fear of God’ keeps people in their place, or in church on Sunday to continue tithing. This is certainly not an idea from the Fellowship of Friends, but rather has been around for aeons of time.
“Yeah, I know all about the time honored traditions of suffering, but what I’m more interested in is the experience of ecstasy as a way to a higher place.” — Jerry Garcia
Me too, Jerry, me too.
331 New Kid: “Kuznetsov said his group believed that, in the afterlife, they would be judging whether others deserved heaven or hell.”
We had one up on that group in that we knew, before the afterlife, that everyone except us was going to the moon/hell. Nice one, RB!
306 Ames.
Understood! BTW Girard once said that forgiveness occurs in the mi-fa interval of the impressions octave. Hope that helps.
Dear Somebody (around #329)
You wrote: “When suffering is accepted as necessary for one’s evolution, the teacher who causes this suffering appears to be “a helper”.”
Whatever the view of various authentic religions and teachers on how to deal with the suffering that comes to one in life, I do not know of any that actually condone, much less recommend, causing suffering for others as a legitimate spiritual path. Robert not only causes suffering, but also acts in his own self-interest in ways that we now know have damaged the essences of his students and/or their families on many occasions and over many years.
The following quote from St Matthew does not bode well for Robert Burton or his supporters and enablers. In it, the expression “little child” seems to refer to a spiritual seeker in a state of essence, but could also simply refer to a child.
“Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!”
With love,
Joseph G
Saw this on a bumpersticker coming to work yesterday:
I Found Jesus!
He was behind the sofa the whole time.
My experience of the idea of suffering in the Fellowship of Friends was that it gave many students the permission to act without kindness towards others.
Despite my best efforts to avoid it I’ve never needed the Fellowship, or Flatulence C, to ensure that I had an adequate measure of suffering in my life. Whenever I’m running short, my mind creates more for me. It has done nothing for my evolution. Trying to see how I create it, and trying to avoid my own stupidity, may have helped some. The most helpful thing for me has been to try to stop feeling sorry for myself and replace my concerns about my own suffering with trying to be decent to someone in my immediate environment–always a challenge.
345 wildz
“My experience of the idea of suffering in the Fellowship of Friends was that it gave many students the permission to act without kindness towards others.”
——-
Yes! Exactly!
The word kindness is another word that’s rarely spoken or written in the Fellowship.
It’s not that I spent all of my time in the fof engaging in acts of kindness — far from it.
But I found the word, and the idea of it, seriously lacking.
Why didn’t we use it more often? Because it’s feminine dominance, and mechanical goodness, and all that nonsense. And besides, it’s similar to other words such as lying and accountability. These words evoke actual “thinking.” There’s a reason it’s called “thoughtfulness.”
Few human traits demonstrate a person’s self-confidence and strength and spirituality more than simple acts of kindness.
Elena ~
“I know nothing about your play and my reference to nakedness had nothing to do with your marriage. Sorry if it hit a target I was not addressing.”
_________________________
Elena, this is simply not true; you housed with the very person who was close to this situation (and person) for weeks, posted that “Unoanimo is not on the blog lately because he’s in Love” months ago, then apologized for it… You say things as only someone who does know could and state later that you know nothing, avoiding your conscience and deeper picture of how you boil and bubble over your stew involving the self-defined-pain of others lives and what it means ’socially’, ‘morally’ and ‘personally’ so to keep yours, which you treat similarly, company, with no fundamental transformation yet, though eagerly you’re quick to show how to say the same thing for the thirtieth time with plenty of refinement in the area of how to complain about injustice and no be one producing the very injustice you’re trying to erase; if you have an eraser in the left hand and an unlimited supply of chalk in the other, then, when will it end (?) after all, the ‘blackboard’ is vast, it contains all of the universe.
You’re ‘grapevine’ is everywhere Elena and lying about where its clusters reside only makes it grow vaster and heavier upon your back… see, Elena, you even refused my gesture of separating from you and your pain-shopping, willfully saying that you’ll be my friend regardless of my position: this is simply a ‘religious icon’ maneuver, something your inner temple would do better not having hung on its wall.
Separating from your sphere is no mine or your ‘problem’, it is simply a gesture and a real one; the only “problem” that is yours is that you do not honor others requests and willfully stab your flag in quicksand,sinking, say “No matter, it’s mine, no matter, it’s mine”….
It does matter Elena; to honor the decision another has made concerning their proximity will be a challenge for your ‘instinct’, your ‘nature’… Yet, I beg you to leave me out of your ’seems like’ soap opera; you’re on the wrong set with your shopping cart.
Of insincerity and how it effects the hydrogens ’sensed’ concerning your letters to me and others; you state that you have no doubt that I will come out a better man from all of this… LOL… Of all spirits that should have conscious doubt concerning this area and whether it will produce any real lasting effect in the sufferer’s being, it ought to be you Elena, what shape, but a circle, have you demonstrated time and time again, has Girard and Robert Burton traveled in their ‘difficult times’ and come out the other end simply better at being worse?
So, please Elena, leave it, just give my sphere a rest and reflect on someone else; this bubble needs REST and your subtle lying only reminds me of those blatant ones I am now, with all my strength (and then some), trying to keep safe within my heart and not let them go to my head or bloodstream; your condescending mannerisms are not assisting me in the least and I would appreciate it if you would simply go and do something ‘right’ for yourself, have real fun, real rest, a real look at a sand castle of a cup of coffee and leave my unfinished portrait out of your House of Mirrors.
_________________
l.t.y.a.
238, 287, 294, 314 and 336 are newly moderated.
VeronicaPoe: I think that I deleted one of your comments that went to moderation by mistake. Apologies.
Correction ~
‘…plenty of refinement in the area of how to complain about injustice and be the one producing the very injustice you’re trying to erase;
Sheikh probably meant 283, not 238 was newly moderated.
Actually, Sheik, the post that went to moderation was post number 4 on this blog’s “About” page; it is a permalink to veronicapoe’s bookmarks at archive.org. Thanks however for your conscientiousness.
Oh boy, we’ve attracted another one.
287 Psychic
Believe me, Elena’s daughter is the least of the Fellowship’s problems, “but you don’t understand that…”
287 Psychic
But feel free to “minimize”. I haven’t heard the fat lady sing yet, have you?
287 Psychic
Sounds fairly lawyerly. Couldn’t be ole “honest abe” could it, or LT, or (insert name of panicked, power hungry sycophant).
The Fellowship has been beaten in court before, a few times, and it’ll happen again, and again. RB presents unlimited fodder for lawsuit and ridicule, as do the minor governing minions and flying monkeys.
287 Psychic
And your not dealing with just a couple malcontents here. This is a fucking force to be reckoned with. With consistent and similar stories covering a long period of time, becoming progressively more outrageous and dangerous. You lack of scale and relativity is fucking mind boggling for a member of “the ARK”. Keep stroking yourselves.
#310, 311 youmeusthey: I can’t figure out what the picture is on your avatar? Could you tell me? Thanks.
I love the Dolphin and Flying Cow. Who can beat that?
287 Psychic: “The school will always be here in one form or another, known to many or hidden”
Wow! It’s salutary to be reminded that some Fellowship students still believe extraordinary nonsense like this. I’m trying to imagine how a sane person could make a statement like that – I honestly can’t.
Unoanimo,
It is necessary for us to be as ruthless as you and I are being with each other if we are ever going to trust ourselves so I thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this unfortunate event.
When I posted that post about you being in love, I had not yet spoken with your wife and my conversation with her was very short because I had already sent that post and told her shortly after we started speaking. She was so upset we did not speak further. My friend had told me she was very sad and there was some separation issue because you were in love with someone else but no one told me your name. I deduced it because things just added up. On the blog you had stopped writing for some time after a slight confrontation between us and I was so concerned that it was my fault or responsibility that you had stopped writing that I actually told everybody that you were in love so that they would know it wasn’t because of me that you weren’t writing.
My lack of consideration for the situation has no excuse. I did not realize the extent to which the conflict had progressed because neither my friend had gossiped much nor had I spoken with your wife.
I immediately apologized publicly to your wife for that offence on the blog and left her over four messages hoping she would contact me and talk. She never did. I included you in my apology. I have no idea what number it is but it is there right after that first post.
I may be targeting many aspects of your private life that you are horrified by but it is not about you in particular Unoanimo, it is simply because the pattern I see in you is so similar to the pattern I saw in Girard Haven that it is unmistakable. By that I do not mean that you are nearly as insensitive as unfortunately I consider my husband to be but to some degree. To enough degree to repeatedly enter your participation picking out a sentence from another poster and demeanoring it one way or another, whether you mention their name or not.
The pattern reminded me of him and the phenomenon in the Fellowship that we are currently discussing so closely. The fact that Girard and so many in the Fellowship know that there are tremendous human abuses but pretend that they are not as serious and look at the pretty dresses and ballet.
This was no less true in our intimate relation in which no matter how much love we shared it was not enough for Girard to take more than a day out for us in Oregon House after four years. He just didn’t see it. His time had been chained to his role and condemmed to the Fellowship of Friends and he could not invest time on the woman he loved.
If there is any relationship with this and your marriage I would not be surprised Unoanimo because most men in the Fellowship learnt to demeanor their wives and marriages in a similar way but from there to my talking to you with any knowledge of what your play is there is a huge distance. I can count my friends in Oregon House with half of one hand and half of those are not even close enough for us to gossip. My getting together with your wife had nothing to do with you but with the fact that we thought we could help each other. I could not have disappointed her more and we didn’t talk but as I said to her that same day, I am very sorry but this had nothing to do with you, my identification was on the blog. It was exactly the same mistake you tend to make with so many posters.
This does not mean I am not willing to say I am sorry for I am but not for the things you think. I can hear you are suffering enough to sound more real and I am convinced that you will come out of this a better man, simply because everytime we shed this kind of identifications, we do.
It is unfortunate that you cannot hear me and can turn so much around to call attention on minor things for the things I am trying to offer you are deeper than you are willing to take. Again, the same old pattern. Nevertheless, I will not respond to another post on this subject and will leave you to have the last word because I am not willing to indulge in us that much more, when there are more naked issues worth addressing.
You are my friend and I’ve come to appreciate you a great deal. I missed you much those days that you were away and perhaps should have reserved my comment but couldn’t help it, it seemed you were being inconsiderate.
It is easy to take words for words. After so many of them we think it doesn’t really matter whether someone is begging or playing and dismiss the lot of them and write our little contribution without listening. We all do that. We are all identified with different issues. But we are learning and you and I have fought many times, never as hard as the first time and I hope each time with more love.
Each time after a new scandal people are naively expecting from Robert a
fair punishment for the “bad guys”. They also naively think that if Robert
was informed about the situation – nothing bad would ever happen.
Do you remember a loud scandal around Dorian and Mihai? The two were caught
exchanging fof-vauchers and places at expensive teaching dinners for sex
with married women. The crime was going on for long time… One would think
it would be fair to through these bastards out for good. And what did Robert
do? Under public pressure and in order to keep his status, he “removes” the
two for a week, not allowing them to show up on the property… After which
he gradually returns the two to their leading positions… And even promotes
them to “teach”… Would any honest and just man act like this?
He is a master-faker, and so far he was able to sit in the shadows creating
an illusion of his innocence. His followers still refuse to see the obvious:
behind everything in FOF stands Burton himself.
He hides behind everything while saying: “It’s not my fault, it’s all Linda,
or Karen, or c-influence”.
We all know that in the totalitarian regime nothing happens without the
government.
366 Elena
How about some boundaries. Jeez.
Dear Sharon,
“By suing the Fellowship I would somehow be denying that personal responsibility. It feels dishonest to me. It also feels venal to accept money out of it.”
Understanding that the Fellowship of Friends needs to be stopped legally does not mean we are ready to sue it. It probably means that we need to spend a long time understanding whether that is actually possible and how and specially taking care that that too doesn’t become a feast for opportunists trying to get some money.
It means that we need to hear those who know what it implies. Lawyers, students and exstudents and it means measuring the damages.
I have no doubt that at some point we must be open for serious dialogue with students.
The extent of madness is big but there are still some sane enough to know that at some point they will need to dialogue if they wish to minimize the effects of our demands on the Fellowship of Friends.
I totally respect your position. Totally. And thank you for presenting it for we are more in the phase of dialoguing about these things than actually collecting money. No money should come until we are very clear about what is going on.
I would be the first to move out if there were not complete transparency in this process. But it is also fine to at least develop a sight where we can share this things more privately. Even on that sight we could use fake names for a long time, for the protection of those who need it with only one moderator knowing they are as legitimate, as such sight may offer.
It is not like we would be speaking about anything ilegal either but at least those talking in such a place would be considering such option more seriously. That is all.
It does not mean that we are madly going to go in this direction at no matter whose cost.
leonhardon: Now that’s a pretty funny avatar!
Another voice, this is all very intense0. I have not meant to offend you or anyone else but defend myself from being called a liar.
“Elena, this is simply not true”
and that I was intentionally trying to hurt Uno because he thought I knew things that I don’t know. The parallels that he is presenting are in his perceptions not in my intention whether you believe it or not.
371 Elena
You haven’t offended me at all. I have no idea what the background is between you, Uno, Uno’s wife, etc., so I certainly wouldn’t accuse anyone of being a liar. I don’t even know who Uno is, let alone his wife. I’ve never met you. It makes no difference. I’m just saying, please respect people’s privacy, especially when they ask you to, and please consider exercising some discretion before broadcasting melodrama. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t want to know about what happened with Uno and his wife unless he feels like baring his soul on this–which he apparently doesn’t. No need to publicly thrash out every emotional issue. We’re friends here, but I’m not sure we want it to be a 24 hour pajama party.
I couldn’t get to sleep so I’ll defend myself even further, tired as I am of hearing my own voice on this blog trying to defend myself instead of doing something more worthwhile.
Another Name, if Unoanimo really wanted privacy in his life he would be writing to me in private about his private life. I asked “What does it feel like to look at the shoes under the chair when you have a naked person in front of you” And I was mostly reacting to my begging all of you to consider the Fellowship of Friends to get an answer from Uno about Graduates having had enough warnings.
He just wrote a post to me about his personal situation that I did not even think a second time about clarifying what my involvement with it was. Stupid, naive and very tired but I didn’t even realize I was exposing him further.
I don’t think I’ve spent the last seven months chasing exstudents to tell the rest here about their private lives and if I’ve exposed anyone really seriously, it is myself and my own husband, ex husband he’d probably be happier to hear. And yes, I am not here just to question the Fellowship of Friends but all the damage it has done to us personally and the kind of people we’ve become. If I’ve touched on you too in a way that it hurts it is not because I am chasing you to hurt you. I am very sorry I’ve hurt you but here people have called me lunatic and whatever other names I have been called and I’ve been rejected in the Fellowship of Friends for seventeen years and my husband has treated me like a whore in simply not being able to look at me like a woman and treat me and have me treated by the Fellowship of Friends like a worthwhile human being and his wife, so don’t be surprised if I am extremely sensitive to names by anyone such as liar and presumptous and cold and the soap opera I’m putting on, etc, etc, etc. You think if I were not hurt enough by the Fellowship I would be spending seven months screaming and now trying to sue it out of its shoes?
In fact Unoanimo the soap opera is yours exposing your little life for it is you who is exposing it, not I. I am consistently trying to concentrate on what we are going to do with the Fellowship of Friends, in fact, we are trying to find another sight so that we can concentrate on at least finding out what that might imply but you keep pulling me and everyone else to your personal attention because your vanity cannot help it.
Vanity yes, have I ever said it is not lunatic that I work with? Yes, lunatic. And I thank any of you for saying this is lunatic and point it out when it gets disturbing enough. So I will not spare any one else either when your feature gets out here and screams. Does it feel great when I expose myself but not when I expose you? But you come looking for me Unoanimo, bating me so that you can get attention and then insult me because I respond. You want it public, have it public.
So easy to diminish one with trivia. Today I sent probably the only post worth while of any I’ve sent because I was so happy about moving on with the ning site and all you can return back to me is this cheap mess. Keep looking at the shoes under the chair and we’ll get about as far as the door, good, the door leads out.
Another voice, this last post was sent before reading your last one and it is not a reaction to it but to the one with jeez. Yours just came in after I sent it.
If you would have sent this second one in a much milder tone the first time I would have much appreciated it. I am on the edge of being too tired. Ilene’s death, the ning site, and this more demanding issue than any, with Uno.
Clarification. I mean if you had had the same tone in the jeez one as you just had in this last one it would have been easier for me to handle it.
This one’s for Uno:
“Love is an exploding cigar we willingly smoke.”
—Lynda Barry
JoelF
To WULSWU (Wake up…),
The avatar is the very centre of a light bulb, enlightened…
Nice you asked friend!
I would like very much (when I find a way to work this out) to propose the full view of this spectacular photo, someday.
To Elena,
There is, in many of your posts, such a strong feeling of self righteousness, impeccability
-the aim justifying the means, apologies included for not being a “diplomate”, “aware”, “up dated” and what not…-
that I end up experiencing emotional shrinkage and at times, even terror.
Girl! You are dangerous…
Please, if you were inspired to answer, don’t give me a what about ” Unoanimo”?, a “Robert Burton” ? or a “what about the Fellowship of Friends” ? in a further attempt, as you put it, “to defend” yourself or even, having to “be who you think you are”.
To all,
May I conclude with one of those irritating quotes:
” Never desire the truth to be other than it is!”
I think it is from “me” but…
Gratitude.
Dear “I see said the blind man”:
“…whether Whaleriders heart rending suffering or Unoanimos Rilke-esque self indulgence, carry that same ‘Its all about me’ coloring…”
Did you miss the part about having children and wanting to protect them?
For goodness sake, do not turn a blind eye to the suffering of others caused by the hand of criminals. You attempt to carry on a glib discussion about the nature of suffering while your brothers and sisters are being discretely robbed and tortured in the next room! Where is your humanity?
To all and Elena,
Additional point on the “emotional shrinkage” and “terror feeling” while reading some of Elena’s posts:
I observed that it is while and after reading/absorbing the expression of a “compliment” or “prizing” of some sort that my heart tremble most
because after that…
Carefully placed, “ante prima”, the “Yesssssssss…” of a “But/NOooooooooo…” equation.
Makes me doubt the declared intention and explore the possibility of the existence of a possible “private Agenda”, known or unknown…
Addressing this to “All” seems appropriate because, to me, that it relates to “manipulation”, “hypnotism” we have been looking at regarding the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burton as its leader.
Yessssssssssssss, you are the chosen one, butttttttttt,
not being in your 9th life time…!
“Yessssssssssssss, I love you, buttttttttttt…”
Have “fun” finishing the sentence yourself.
Any taker?
Gratitude.
[Couldn't seem to get this passed as one post; probably too long. So, go figure.]
Where have all the flowers gone,
long time passing?
Where have all the flowers gone,
long time ago?
Where have all the flowers gone?
young girls picked them, every one;
Oh, when will you ever learn,
Oh, when will you ever learn?
Where have all the young girls gone,
long time passing?
Where have all the young girls gone,
long time ago?
Where have all the young girls gone?
They’ve taken husbands, every one;
Oh, when will you ever learn,
Oh, when will you ever learn?
Where have all the young men gone,
long time passing?
Where have all the young men gone,
long time ago?
Where have all the young men gone?
They are all in uniform;
Oh, when will we ever learn,
Oh, when will we ever learn?
Written by Pete Seeger, 1919 -
[Couldn't seem to get this passed as one post; probably too long. So, go figure.]
Or, how about:
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now am found
Was blind, but now I see
‘Twas Grace that taught my heart to feel
And Grace my fears relieved
How precious did that grace appeal
The hour I first believed
Through many dangers, toils, and snares
I have already come
‘Tis grace that brought me safe thus far
And grace will lead me home
The lord has promised good to me
His word my hope secures
He will my shield and portion be
As long as life endures
Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease;
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.
The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who call’d me here below,
Will be forever mine.
When we’ve been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we first begun
Written by John Newton,
1725 – 1807,
upon his conversion from being
a slave ship captain on May 10, 1748….
[This should have been first before the two songs. Couldn't seem to get this passed as one post; probably too long. So, go figure.]
Hey, everybody, its time for a meeting; a perpetual meeting. Here are some old fashioned Fellowship of Friends style meeting type angles of thought; something you likely can not get at FoF meetings these days:
[See subsequent post for the rest; if I can get it passed without moderation.]
[Part 2]
Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly. So, lighten up folks, for crying out loud. Didn’t you get enough
angst while in the Fellowship of Friends and from Robert Earl Burton and his minions of flying monkeys? [Do you see the Wicked Witch of the West around here anywhere? If you do, let's throw some water on her and make her melt away.]
[Part 3]
Speaking of angst, or pain body, or whatever you want to call it: Doesn’t it feel great when you finally stop beating
your head against the brick wall that was called the Fellowship of Friends, or the your/my mechanicality, or World 96 or 192, or the general conditions of life on Planet Earth? Now don’t start beating your head on the other side or on the
inside (so as to create balance), or on the other side of the wall, just because you can not give up the habit. Let’s all try to get along. To help, here’s a little sing along:
[Go to songs in earlier posts.]
Psychic:
Apologies if this seems to veer a bit… and not that we necessiarily need reminding — the problem, the sickness, the pathology is more pervasive than one Robert Burton, it’s part of the soup we’re in.
“Remember when I talked about sociopaths earlier? You defined them from DSM as charismatic and hyperbolic, blaming the system, saying that the system forces them to act the way they do, devoid of tension and anxiety, path dependent and genuinely without a conscience. A public corporation’s doctrine of fiduciary responsibility combined with their legal status is a sociopath incubator. Corporations are incapable of doing anything other than what they do because they are driven by their fiduciary responsibility. There are many parallels between sociopaths and corporations. Intelligent and manipulative? Corporations hire the smartest and most persuasive. Charismatic? They advertise. Hyperbolic? Again, they advertise, but they also self promote stock prospectuses and public relations. Blames the system? They are the system. When companies are caught doing something wrong, the most common retort is, “But, this is the only way to be competitive.” Devoid of tension, anxiety and guilt? It ain’t alive. Path dependent? Laws and fiduciary responsibilities. If corporations are structurally sociopaths, can a world order comprised of such entities be our best possible choice?”
Ben Mack
‘ton, I just watched part of “the corporation” the other night and yes, I agree, these “entities” do behave much like large-scale sociopaths.
Associatively, here is a link for whoever wishes to sign a pledge to boycott Total Oil and and Chevron/Texaco until they stop supporting the Burmese regime.
http://www.avaaz.org/en/burma_corporate
Youmeasthey,
Yes, I have an agenda and have not tried to hide it from the moment I started writing on this blog. I’ve picked a fight with the Fellowship of Friends and I hope I am as dangerous to it as I think it is to others, not a fight with you or Unoanimo or anyone else for that matter.
I’ve exposed Girard’s and my own lives precisely so that I don’t have to go looking for other people’s suffering to show how dangerous this school is.
And yes I think I am right, otherwise I would not have enough trust in myself to move this forward
As for the rest of your attacks it is bad when it is good and bad when it is bad so I will not try to get anywhere further with you or the rest of the petty enemies I might pick up here. I already have what, 1200 students enemies, does it matter if we add another hundred to that list?
.
Uno, this one’s for you… be well bro.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uXV-OiOaOSk
some further thoughts about “the big picture” and the signs of the times…
http://www.realitysandwich.com/node/736