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The Fellowship of Friends Discussion, part 1(7)

Part 17 of the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For previous parts click on home.

654 Responses

  1. 573 I think is worth a reading.
    Dear, I think is worth a reading, my lowly opinion and I am sure that many here will not have the same opinion.
    Is that Tony Parsons head is up his arson.
    Is everyone also born able to play piano and do trigonometry and dance ballet at a high level?
    But as said it is only my opinion and many here dont share it.
    Maya Maya Maya. Cy.


  2. I remember how difficult it was to leave the fellowship of friends. I had believed in it and wanted to re-discover that belief. I met all the people close to me in the Fellowship. The outside world seemed cold and heartless. I have to be honest in saying I didn’t leave without joining another group. I admire people who leave without joining something. I guess ultimately *Life* is the teacher and the kingdom is within you.i.e. we have to live in accordance with the essence of ourselves. I find it hard to follow the blog but you guys are amazing.


  3. on July 28, 2007 at 1:40 pm Critical Mass

    I didn’t know that Brian Sisler was schizophrenic until he left the Fellowship, but he did have a pathetic quality to him. He was a heavy drinker, an attempt at self-medication I suppose, and he sometimes got into trouble because of his drinking. He said that he didn’t feel able attend any Robert events or FOF concerts without drinking first. After one accident too many, Brian was told to take valium before attending any of Robert’s events, helpfully prescribed by Dr EH. I didn’t have the feeling that Brian was exclusively gay, he seemed to develop crushes on women, so maybe he was bisexual.

    The version I heard about Brian’s attempt to contact Robert was that he was turned away by the gatehouse attendant. Robert subsequently sent a message to the gatehouse that any current or former member who asked to speak to Robert should be put through to someone close to Robert, Dorien or Asaf. I wonder if this would really work. The Fellowship # is 692-2244. Don’t all phone up at once.

    Ph_lip L_cas can be lunatic about security. He likes guns a lot and regularly goes hunting deer illegally on the property along with M_hai. Others do it to, becase Robert wants to thin down the deer population because of his roses. He also gave Ph_lip permission to shoot any dogs that get onto the property. I’m told that PL took a course in a particular kind of shooting in case Robert is ever involved in a hostage situation. He is paranoid about ex-students getting onto the property, and so gatehouse keepers would be unlikely to be sympathetic to anyone who asks to see Robert.


  4. on July 28, 2007 at 1:46 pm Critical Mass

    A government department recently called the “ministers” in for interview, and in early July they decided that the FOF did not qualify as a church. There was no temple or church structure on the property, for one thing. But they made a number of mistakes, interviewing people who are over here with “monk” visas as if they were ministers (“ministers” are expected by the authorities to perform certain duties, whereas these are not required of “monks” or “brothers and sisters”) and they claimed to have interviewed one particular minister, but had not done so. All of this has bought time for the FOF, so there have been R1 meetings advising students what to say. “Ministers” who no longer rely on R1 visas have been officially decommissioned because there are a crazy number of ministers in the FOF. Of course, no one in the Fellowship of Friends refers to it as a church unless Homeland Security is listening. Students applying for religious worker visas are even instructed that they must simply answer “yes” if they are asked if they believe in God when they are interviewed by Homeland Security. Don’t tell them about the Absolute, or about God being keyed as presence, just answer “Yes”! There was a funny offical email from the FOF a while ago offering a salaried position in the “monastery gardens”. Purely for the sake of eavesdropping INS officials and others. The Wikipedia article and the new website, both of which now refer to God and “church” have obviously been developed to try and convince the authorities that the FOF really is a church.


  5. on July 28, 2007 at 1:57 pm Veronicapoe

    The Esoteric History Archive, also called veronicapoe’s bookmarks, can be found at the following URL. Just copy and past the URL into your browser and remove the spaces:

    www . archive . org / bookmarks / veronicapoe

    Life Person — wonderfully, clearly stated. Thank you.

    Comic relief — the playlet about philanthropist Hank and his followers made me laugh out loud.


  6. on July 28, 2007 at 2:00 pm Veronicapoe

    Table of contents for veronicapoe’s bookmarks:

    The Canons of the Fellowship of Friends, January 1, 1986
    Bookmarked: 9 days ago

    Noyes v. Kelly Services, Inc.
    Bookmarked: 14 days ago

    Body Types Journal
    Bookmarked: 17 days ago

    “Ain’t Love Gland – Excerpts”
    Bookmarked: 29 days ago

    Fellowship Cessna (purchased January 2, 1972)
    Bookmarked: 29 days ago

    Outside the Lodge, Spring 1972
    Bookmarked: 30 days ago

    January 1982 Letter to Robert
    Bookmarked: 32 days ago
    Comment: includes Robert’s edits and comments

    Account of Barbara Bruno Lancaster
    Bookmarked: 32 days ago
    Comment: From Cults and Consequences (1988)

    Meeting of the Board of Directors, Renaissance Monastery, February 20, 1982
    Bookmarked: 38 days ago
    Comment: This document was filed by lawyers for The Fellowship of Friends, Inc. in the Superior Court of California for the County of Yuba. It was obtained in the course of a public records search and is in the public domain.

    Photograph, “Gathered Around The Campfire, 1971”
    Bookmarked: 42 days ago

    Overview of Fellowship Exercises, July 26, 1980
    Bookmarked: 43 days ago
    Comment: This overview was prepared by Student # 11.

    Three photographs of Robert Burton from the 1960s
    Bookmarked: 43 days ago

    Fellowship of Friends Timeline, January 1970 – January 1974
    Bookmarked: 44 days ago
    Comment: This timeline was prepared by Student # 11.

    Note from the period of silence, 1971-1972
    Bookmarked: 46 days ago
    Comment: “It is good weak students leave as they are weight. It used to bother me but now it’s like a useless object being gone.”

    Recruitment diagrams, November 1971 and January 1972
    Bookmarked: 47 days ago
    Comment: Documenting the early growth of the Fellowship of Friends as an organization “which may be reached only by invitation.”

    Meeting of the Board of Directors, Renaissance Monastery, February 20, 1982
    Bookmarked: 47 days ago
    Comment: Archive.org lists this link as not available “due to issues with the item’s content.” Reposted on June 20, 2007.

    “The Greatest Mystery of the Twentieth Century”
    Bookmarked: 47 days ago
    Comment: “Can the chief feature of vanity be transmuted into a strength?”

    The Canons of the Fellowship of Friends
    Bookmarked: 52 days ago
    Comment: Archive.org lists this link as not available “due to issues with the item’s content.” Reposted on July 19, 2007.

    Meeting of the Governing Board, Lafayette School District, March 27, 1967
    Bookmarked: 52 days ago

    Articles of Incorporation of The Fellowship of Friends, Inc.
    Bookmarked: 52 days ago

    Guidelines for Circle of Angels, 1990-1991, Walden Farm
    Bookmarked: 53 days ago


  7. on July 28, 2007 at 2:06 pm I think is worth a reading...

    Dear Cyclops,

    probably he (TP) will agree with you…..I don’t, and here is another reading:

    Excerpts and Dialoques from Tony’s upcoming new book
    – Nothing Being Everything

    Nothing Being Everything to be published mid-July

    You were saying yesterday that the very seeking prevents the seeing – I am paraphrasing – it’s just such a brilliant game of appearances and deflection of attention in a way and it just helps to give an understanding of how it is all from the same font

    It’s the same font, yes. One bit of it doesn’t want to be the same – or thinks it isn’t the same font.

    But that’s just all the play – or what is called the Divine Play of …

    It’s absolutely the divine play of being. And being isn’t the slightest bit interested in the idea of anybody seeing this or not, because there is nothing other than being … and non-realisation is also being.
    So being suffers, being laughs, being searches, being finds, being doesn’t find. There isn’t anything other than that. And of course all of that is totally immaculately whole – there is only that so that is all there is. But in that wholeness there is something that thinks it isn’t wholeness, which is also being, being separate.
    Being has no requirements. But what arises within being is an apparent need and requirement to find that there is no need and requirement.

    And the mystery of that is just inscrutable – it’s just a mystery.

    And the search for that is reflected in the world that we live in because everything we do is a search for that. All religion, all apparent personal endeavour, is simply a seeking for this unknowing.

    A resolution of attention, of feeling separate?

    It is a search for not being separate. The seeker cannot see this, because this is timeless being – this is the eternal isness which is out of time, out of space, out of being achievable. So what we are trying to achieve can’t be achieved because it is already all there is.

    It’s kind of hard to accept – something I have a hard time accepting is that the spiritual search is no better, no higher, no more refined than a search for money, sex, power or whatever.

    Absolutely. All desire is ultimately the search to come home. And what is strange about this paradox, this mystery, is that everything that is being done – all seeking, all reaching out, all personal endevour, all building of churches and empires, is being-ness. It is pure aliveness. It’s an amazingly strange paradox.

    In some ancient Vedic text, or something like that, is there anything said about how that is, or about the why. I mean I know the ‘Bhagavad Gita’ says just, it’s an experiment …

    No, there is no why and there is no experiment and no choice. The basis of traditional argument is that oneness chose to become two, and if oneness made a choice to become two, it could make a choice to become one again. It’s a fairy story based on the illusion of time, cause and effect.
    Nothing is ever chosen. The whole dream of choice and motivation is that there is something in time that can move forward with intention from a place called twoness to a place called oneness. There never has been anything but being, and this is the eternal nothing and everything. It isn’t going anywhere and it’s never been anywhere. There is no anywhere. There is no time or space except in the appearance. There is nothing but this, and this is nothing happening.

    And I see now that that question arises from the separate point of view so it is inherently unanswerable in a way. It is just an unanswerable question, but that is only because it is from the standpoint of separateness. Because in the glimpses of wholeness there is no question. There is no question at all. There is just an absence of any need to know anything because it just is. So then that question is just a loop that arises.

    Yes, it is a loop and you are absolutely right, separation engenders the question ‘why’ and the searching. And as you say, when there is no one there is no loop and there won’t be any questions. There is no question and there are no answers. There is no knower and no known … and so there is no one to ask why.

    But it is the most enticing question within that point of view.

    Oh yes, it is, and being in separation loves asking why. And that fascination has generated religion. The question why in the seeker has generated Christianity, Buddhism, everything else that you could call a teaching of becoming that inevitably is based on the fundamental misconception that there is a separate individual with choice and volition to follow a path, to be motivated to move from one state to another, better state, to seek and find the answer that has no question.

    I feel very happy to be here. I want to address the topic of being. Yesterday I learned a very important lesson. I was on my way home and I thought, “Oh I’m so much looking forward to being at home” and I realised that I was actually tearing myself in two because I was saying by implication that my state in travelling was actually less than this nirvana of simply this.
    And I said, “Hang on, Robert, it’s you here, stop mortgaging yourself for some future event, it’s actually okay to be on the Northern Line”.

    Yes. But you didn’t do that, it just happened. And looking forward is also beingness.

    It just happened?

    The difficulty for the seeker is that they think they have to do something about their state or be in another state that frees them from the state they think they’re in.

    But you’re a left brain torturer aren’t you?

    Oh, am I? (laughing)

    Of course you are.

    Oh right, I’m a left brain torturer. (laughing)

    So in Amsterdam I’m The Terminator. And here I’m the ‘left brain torturer’. (laughing)

    You know you said there’s just awareness?

    No, there’s just being. Awareness happens, or doesn’t happen, in being.

    There’s just being. And you were talking about awareness as a sense.

    Well my sense of awareness is that it’s a transient state, or it’s a place you can be in and out of. It’s still in the story.

    Because I was just thinking that – when you were standing there – I was aware of your left side. I’m also aware that my shoulder’s a bit tense but nobody else in the room is aware of it.

    No.

    So it’s as if we all have separate awareness.

    Well yes, that seems to be so, and what I’m suggesting is that all these things you’ve just described are something that’s simply happening. It’s being tight shoulders or being Tony Parsons’ left side. It doesn’t need awareness for it to be, but the seeker thinks it does.

    But what’s happening here is slightly different to what’s happening there.

    What’s also being suggested is that there isn’t a “here” and “there”. It seems to the apparent entity that there is a location here and it seems as though there’s a “here” and a “there”. There isn’t a “here” and a “there” and those tight shoulders are simply being tight shoulders just as being this left side is being left side. It’s all only beingness.

    But it’s all lots of little different bits of information.

    Yes it certainly seems different, but it is oneness being everything and therefore appearing to be different. All of it is simply oneness arising. All of it is simply being.

    What do we do with all the bits of information coming at us all the time?

    Nothing.

    Nothing? (laughing)

    There is no one that can do anything and there is nothing that needs to be done or known! There never has been anyone to do anything. The whole misconception that keeps us firmly in the sense of being separate is the idea that we can do anything or the idea that we need to do anything. Why do we need to do anything? There is just what’s happening. It is all immaculately complete and without need.

    So what should we be aware of then?

    Nothing. (laughing) Here you go again with the obligation of having to be aware, which is a transitory state. There just is what’s happening. The idea of being aware of something is a trap. Awareness needs another and is still in the story of dualism … there is no other.

    But what’s happening changes; it changes from second to second. That’s not constant.

    Yes. It certainly appears to change, but everything only seems to change or be different or apart from everything else. All of what happens is being apparently happening.

    So where’s the constant?

    The constant is being, and it is nowhere and everywhere. What’s happening is being arising and moving around. And beingness is all there is.

    And where am I in relation to what’s happening?

    You aren’t. There is no one. There is no relationship. All there is is being and the idea of a “me” arises in being.

    Hmm-mm. (laughing) Well what’s the value of knowing that?

    None at all. There’s absolutely nothing on offer here. There’s no value, nothing is on offer. The most amazing thing that could arise from this is nothing. If you go out of here with something, then you’re still someone with something. “I now have this. This is mine to do something with”. If there’s a real hearing of this it will be seen that there is nothing to get or know. There will just be apparently what’s happening.
    There’s nowhere to go. There’s no goal. There’s no carrot. There’s no prize. All there is is this. But the difference between there just being what’s happening and the sense that it’s happening to you is immeasurable.

    I can understand there being no person or no choice. What you seem to be saying is there’s no past where that person has been conditioned in anything. Is that correct? There is no past?

    There appears to be a past and the conditioning that arises. There is only timeless being appearing as that.

    So in that sense this didn’t happen. So when is the present?

    There isn’t any.

    There is no present either?

    This is no thing happening. There’s no past, there’s no future, there’s no above, there’s no below, there’s no inner, there’s no outer. There is no present moment. Show me the present moment … where can it be?

    Is that because those are concepts?

    Yes. They’re only the dream or the belief and experience of a separate person arising in this time, goals, meaning, purpose, cause and effect, karma, past lives … all that dream story arises as this. The moment we become separate we hope for an answer so we attach to that hope the idea “Oh there must be a meaning. Why is this happening? Why aren’t I in paradise? Where is goodness? Why have I lost it? There must be a meaning for this life I have, so what I must do is find meaning.” So we go to people who teach us meaning. We go to enlightenment masters who tell us, “Yes there is a meaning. I’ll teach you how to find meaning through effort, sacrifice, dedication, devotion, change, personal refinement of the body-mind or whatever other teaching of becoming.

    If there’s no meaning, what stops you from being a couch potato?

    Nothing. If couch potatoing happens it happens. There’s nobody who can choose to be a couch potato or not be one. So a lot of people – teachers – say “Well Tony Parsons is teaching spiritual laziness”. Of course, they’re not really hearing what’s being said. They think that Tony Parsons is saying, “There’s nothing you can do so go and watch East Enders” but actually that isn’t the message.
    The fundamental message is, there is no such thing as a separate entity with free will or choice and so nobody can choose to watch East Enders or not watch it. What is apparently done or not done is completely irrelevant to being.

    So when you’re attached to your identity you try to bend things, to want things and do things.

    You dream that you are doing those things and need to do them in order to get more things.

    So that just disappears?

    What disappears is the one who feels separate and needs not to. There’s only being. It can’t be conceived of. It can’t be described. It cannot even be known.

    This story is so compelling. This is so compelling.

    It’s compelling and fascinating to you. If you take ‘you’ out of the happening it’s just what’s happening. What’s compelling about what’s happening right now? I mean it’s just happening. What’s the compulsion?

    It’s a thought story that feels very real.

    But where is that story right now? What’s happening in that story?

    What’s happening in that story?

    Where’s this going right now? Is there a story? What’s happening there? What is sensed there right now in the body?

    Tiredness.

    So that’s what there is. That is this, beingness. But the mind gets hold of the tiredness and says “Well, that is your tiredness and so what you need to do now is get to bed, or not work so hard, or use your energy in a better way”. And there you are back in a story trying to make things better for you.

    Yes. And it’s because the tiredness is there.

    No. It’s really because you are still there taking ownership of the tiredness. Then when you’re in bed and you’ve slept for 12 hours you’ll take ownership of feeling better. It’s always telling you “You’re going to feel better – or worse”. It’s the greatest and most powerful addiction there is … you.

    What’s your sense of standing here right now? Is there any way of describing that?

    Warmth. There’s being warmth, excitement, feet on the ground. Somebody’s moved just over there. Cars going by.

    But they don’t add up to a kind of something?

    No, they just are what’s apparently happening. The formless in form … beingness.

    Okay so they’re not being joined. I think maybe we’re joining them.

    Oh, the separate entity joins them and makes them into a story that can be known. And they also dream that what is happening is happening to them and it has meaning about getting somewhere.

    Okay, what I experience – it’s absolutely true – is an incredible feeling of vulnerability as though the shell’s come off.

    Yes.

    And I kind of get a bit like I’ve got goose bumps. I just feel really like …

    Risky?

    Yes. It feels like something has been peeled off. Something like a prawn or something. If you peel off the casing there’s just no protection. And it feels uncomfortable. If I don’t go into a story it just feels uncomfortable physically.

    The way you get back to being you and feeling safe is to go into the apparent story of you in time.

    Yes, but do you just cope with that vulnerability and go with it?

    No, there is no one to cope with anything, there is just nakedness.

    It just all happens then?

    It’s like being naked and open to everything and there’s a sense of risk about it. Everything is suddenly unknown and very alive … there are no filters.

    You get used to it?

    There is no one to get used to anything. There are no artificial filters that you previously provided as an individual. That’s why it’s got nothing to do with what people call detachment. It’s totally full-on aliveness … for no one.


  8. on July 28, 2007 at 2:20 pm Ames Gilbert

    I am taking the liberty of re-posting #407 from Part 6 of this blog. Thank you again, Joe Average.

    Joe Average Says:
    I am forwarding an old letter from an ex-student, as valid now as then. Be warned – I have trimmed it a bit where you see …, but it is still long.

    Dear Friends,
    Of late, my friends and I have been labeled “dissidents”, and worse, by FOF’s leadership. While reading this letter it would be helpful if you could simply consider me an old friend.

    … Please permit yourself the clear space to receive these thoughts and feelings in order to work with them as completely as possible. Given the current situation, I understand that this will not be easy for you. It certainly has been a disturbing process for me as well. However, I have been overwhelmed by the weight of my observations and feel duty bound to share them with you.

    This letter is not intended to serve as the last word on REB or the FOF. Nor is it written to prove or establish a particular point of view. Instead, I hope that it will create a balance to the information you have received from FOF, and act as a springboard from which you may begin a long overdue reappraisal of your own feelings and presumptions. Many of you are mired in a way of life which, for myself and many other ex-members, was neither happy nor enlightening, but instead offered little more than tedium, suppression, exclusivity and debilitating dependency.

    Of late, FOF has required all of you to believe that certain ex-members, as “dissidents”, are “bad” simply because criticism of REB and FOF is not now and never has been permitted. These people have been described as “vindictive”, “crazy”, or “liars” … Apparently it is unthinkable to FOF that anyone could sincerely believe (or know) that the allegations directed at REB are true. But given a history of intense involvement with REB, do you really believe that ex-members would turn around and speak this way unless they really felt that something was wrong? From FOF’s narrow point of view, one would have to be fallen, dark, and just plain wrong to criticize their “guru”. I implore you to remain open to the possibility that your old friends are none of the above.

    The author of this letter has over the past year spoken with approximately 40 ex-members who have uniquely personal and varied perceptions of REB and FOF. Among these people are a number of former high-ranking FOF officials and board of directors members, as well as personal and sexual intimates of REB. …

    They are all united in the belief that accurate information, dialogue, real consideration and anything remotely like discrimination have never been offered or encouraged by REB or FOF. Therefore, they would like to see a free, full, and honest discussion occur. Such a discussion would benefit everyone, except for those who desire only the maintenance of their status and claim. Everyone, especially the “rank and file” FOF membership, must be set free in order to find their own true way through this controversy.

    It is obvious however that as long as ex-member “dissidents” are seen as negative, dark, angry, unspiritual “others”—and “you” in FOF remain the righteous, holy lovers of god, unjustly criticized, god’s army fighting off the heathen masses and demonic media—as long as this contrived dichotomy persists there can be no clarity. …Do not permit the FOF leadership to call you to a false, childish, and simplistic understanding of this controversy. It is a complex, personal and deeply emotional matter that cannot be resolved or dismissed through name-calling and character assassination.

    … This matter cannot be reduced to a battle between good and evil…

    Instead of encouraging an open discussion, FOF has used the same tactics that any political organization would use. They have created a “cause” for you to rally around and feel emotionally committed to and identified with, so that you won’t stare the accusations against REB straight in the eye. They would rather hook you into a fight to protect “the right to freely practice religion”, a right which they claim ex-members have tried to deprive you of. But in what way has anyone actually done this?

    Let’s take a little closer look at the constitutional protections afforded to “religions” such as the FOF. The right to believe whatever you want is protected absolutely. However, the right to do whatever you want is not afforded the same absolute protection at all. Many of the things which REB has been accused of do not fall into the category of actions which are protected. Additionally, is it not reasonable as a common citizen to ask why people who have been involved in illegal activities should be granted the privilege of tax-exempt religious status, as claimed by FOF? And if, in fact, abuses of people have occurred (through actions which are commonly recognized as abuses in our society) shouldn’t the victims have a right to address them in all the forums available? How then does this amount to an attack on religious freedom?

    …The difficulty for many of you is that it has been so long since you entered into an examination other than one created for you by REB and FOF that to do so on your own and to examine “the authorities themselves” is a very difficult task indeed. And yet it must be done if there is to be any clarity or passage through this controversy.

    All I ask then is that this process of unfettered examination be permitted and actually encouraged by FOF. Ask yourself how it is that you are now “advocates”, burdened by belief and fixed presumptions. Why hasn’t REB and FOF welcomed and seen the necessity for an open airing of issues? Why have you all been programmed and “educated” by the FOF propagandists on their way to whitewashing the so-called “FOF sacred history”? How does spiritual practice properly lead to all this manipulation and defense? Who and what is requiring that you become politicized rather than clear? And how well do you really understand that which you are being called upon to defend?

    I invite you to regain the discrimination and inquisitiveness many of you have unconsciously chosen to relinquish in order to associate with REB and the myth he has drawn you into (both as to who he is and the necessity of turning to him for your liberation). If we assume for the moment that REB began his “teaching work” by speaking to our desire for liberation, apart from excess dogmatic baggage and entanglements, it is evident that he has now “moved on” and is at work merely cultivating in his students a yearning for salvation in a system where only he can do the saving.

    … And if we accept that REB’s writings carry a credible message, they do so only insofar as they release the reader into his or her own inherent sense of “being” and “truth”, free of the game of “the search”. It appears impossible for this to occur in the midst of all the medieval, dogmatic, exclusive, ritualized form beneath which direct, unmediated truth has been buried by REB and FOF. After all these years, where is the real evidence that any type of “spiritual process” is uniquely occurring within your community? People are just growing older. The greatness of god has been subordinated to the glory, of REB and his hierarchical empire. Needing to be nurtured and fathered, and being naive as to true spiritual culture and to the game of spiritual authority, most of us never even noticed the light go out.

    This is a large part of what ex-members are trying to address. You are part of a highly ambitious and politicized “machine of seeking” where you no longer own your own perceptions. Ideological dogma coupled with the edited information of the group dominates and molds your life. You are required to adapt to a complex, sophisticated technology of mind and emotion, through which you understand yourself and upon which you view the world; it is a hierarchical scheme with REB as the head, reigning above and beyond the world of man, as external savior or father. We have all been too much in need of an external mediator to serve the participation in and awareness of our own true condition. We must grow beyond the childish and incapacitating dependency bonds which are everywhere propagated by REB and FOF.

    In many ex-members’ experience, the first doubts and questions about their lives as devotees centered around the observations they had regarding the “community” and “institution” of FOF. But they found it much harder to take the obvious next step and look directly at REB, the source and creator of every aspect of the “culture”, institutional structure, and spiritual life of those in FOF. These ex-members, like many of you, dared not break the great taboo of seriously questioning or doubting REB; either their comparative lack of in-depth or prolonged personal experience with him or their incapacity to break through the indoctrination prevented them from seeing him clearly. But finally, in the face of what is now obvious, their relationship to the mythology and imagery which is REB has broken down. These people have “discovered” the man Bubbles Burton, and now know that “the emperor wears no clothes.”

    At this point it would be good to examine the specific activities of REB that many people are concerned about. Some of the information recently brought to light will be recounted here for those who are unfamiliar with what has been said, or for those who have been confused and distracted by FOF…

    To begin with, REB has historically had control over the finances, properties, and other assets of FOF as if he personally and solely “owned” FOF, in stark contrast to the purposes and laws governing non-profit religious organizations. He has personally made all key decisions and has gratified his every whim, caring not for the financial strains he has placed on others. There are serious questions regarding whether REB has over the years abused the tax-exempt status of the FOF corporation for his own personal gain. Perhaps this is why FOF officials in the past few years have strategically destroyed documents that tended to reveal that REB was actually “running the show.”

    REB has always demanded that people “go beyond themselves” to give him more money than they could afford, and then has spent the money on whatever he wanted to create or consume in that moment. Like a child, he has demanded the immediate gratification of his material desires, and then has often abandoned what he has been given in search of a new and more expensive “toy”. … In private, REB has laughed at those who have shown any concern about his financial exploitation of others. This is purportedly an example of the fact that REB is “free of conventional morality.”

    …REB has participated in and required others to perform in sexual and related acts of a highly degrading and demeaning nature which have caused psychological and/or physical damage to those participating. FOF has recently admitted to examples of these types of activity, which many people believe are a reflection of the perversion of REB, rather than anything like enlightened “spiritual instruction.” … These sexual excesses of REB are not a thing of the distant past…..

    And it is the firm belief of many people that the inordinate amount of time and attention REB spends on sexuality reflects nothing more than his own obsession and desires.
    The vast discrepancy between what REB claims and says, versus what he does and intends must be thoroughly examined and understood before one can make an informed response to the man. What should be clear to everyone is that no one in FOF is given the opportunity to “cast the light” directly on REB. Why is he so estranged and hidden from you, really? Apart from your child-like fantasies and subtle beliefs about “who he is” and “how he works”, how much and how privately have you observed him and then tested your observations?

    The fact is, apart from what you have read and are told, intermixed with a variety of contacts with REB years ago, most of you know very little about your teacher. You have therefore been called to relate to only the most superficial imagery about who REB is, and at the same time you have become steeped in an officially prescribed method for relating to him which permits only subservience and fawning devotion. And those of you who have been close to him should ask yourselves to what degree you own hopes, needs, and self-generated projections and expectations, coupled with the mythology about how REB’s “unconventional behavior” has been designed to teach you, has colored your perceptions of him. Ex-members know from their own experience that many of you are paying a heavy price in terms of emotional suppression, confusion, and self-delusion in order to maintain the false conclusion that you have actually been served by this “crazy-wise” madness.

    Another disturbing matter regarding REB is the ritual of secrecy and deception surrounding him. Some of the things described about REB’s life would not in themselves be worthy of any real concern if they did not stand in complete contradiction to an idealized image which has been used to exploit the people who have supported the whole affair. … It was on the basis of this lie that so many accepted the notion that his past behavior was in fact a “teaching demonstration”, and went on to give their lives, minds, hearts, and money to this man. However, upon discovering this deception, many were understandably outraged. …

    You may ask yourself why those who know all of these secrets have always withheld them from you. But we already know the answer. How glamorous to be associated with the ultimate matter and the ultimate master! But what a conceit and what a foundation for the pursuit of power. Through the screening mechanisms of the so-called “culture”, only the few “mature” or “committed” members are given access to REB based upon a paranoid and patriarchal mentality of obedience. The demonstrated signs of your “maturity” (i.e. submission and obedience) gauge the level of your “status” and regulated, controlled access to events, places and people on the political (not spiritual but political) pecking order…

    REB’s behavior is a reflection of his own character and motivations, just like everyone else’s, and he should rightfully take responsibility for the problems his shortcomings have created in his own life and the lives of others. He is anything but free of ego. He has his own strengths and weaknesses. Yet through the process of indoctrination and manipulation, coupled with the weaknesses of those around him, he has been successful at keeping himself invulnerable and unquestioned. In so doing, he has become afflicted in all the ways that any man would be corrupted and deluded by excessive power and isolation from critical feedback. He has also thus imprisoned himself within the expectations he created in others and the torment of pretending to be something he is not. …

    …Nor is it any longer accepted that “the world” is a terrible place full of terrible people, and that spiritual life ends when one leaves FOF. People now know better than to become ensnared in the tentacles of this argument. And where there was only “one” worthy of love and respect, all others became unworthy and worthless. This is what happened in FOF, for as we were all divested of our own selfworth and simultaneously invested in REB, we were rendered nothing rather than “no-thing.” Can you feel this?

    We have all (current and ex-members), along with REB, cooperated in constructing this insane empire. It is a classic and perverted play on what might have been. And it is nothing like what most of us signed up for or thought we were choosing. But so long as you are exposed to the “system” which life in FOF represents, there is no space within which to understand this and be set free.

    …those who serve critical functions in your “culture” adapt to a profoundly dependent form of relating to REB and a resulting righteous, exclusive, self-glorifying, self-protective and politically charged “life of service.” You are all aware of the institutional mentality of those who lead you at FOF. They are part of a machine and priesthood of aberrated spiritual seeking and corruption, an exclusive club, reigning in association with the “enlightened” source or “goodie” who is offered as a reward to those giving over their center, discrimination, and direct unmediated ability to live the truth of their own condition.

    In this process many of you have lost yourselves, your power and your way. And for REB to hide behind a claim of “blamelessness and divinity” while placing all the blame on the immaturity of his devotees, those very people who depend on him for their spiritual guidance, is not only irresponsible and cowardly, but the perfect vision of a perfectly narcissistic megalomaniac. Surely there was a time before you came to FOF where you could have simply recognized this to be so.
    But can you now? It is so hard from where you are. I know, for it has taken many people years, even after leaving FOF, to wake up from the sleep which had settled into every corner of their mind’s eye. Although discrimination is spoken about in the teaching, it is nowhere present in the lives of devotees.

    Many of you have, through non-use, lost your own personal, instinctual feeling for life, having been conditioned to believe that it represents recoil from the divine. You have become good at obeying without reflection. Your blank agreement is applauded as “equanimity” and the transcendence of reactivity.

    Those who are in the FOF hierarchy have the most to lose. And they are among the most corrupt and in need of help. These people are relieved of the ordinary responsibilities of life and live instead a bizarre fantasy life. To do the bidding of their teacher they have become proficient at selectively withholding and releasing edited information, and have made the poor choice of abandoning their native sense of human decency in exchange for power and prestige.

    Many of these same people are the most seriously ambitious in their “search.” It is as if they have not yet adapted to the rudiments of the practice as it relates to the “search” and yet are influential simply because they are “submitted.” Having made such a heavy investment of time and energy in gaining their status and position, they are now banking on their “personal” relationship with REB to save them. In this way there is a tremendous amount of manipulation around the poles of hope and fear. You spin and turn but rarely find a seat from which to observe the play. … The shocking news that thousands of people see this “master” of yours as a tyrannical and deluded power broker never quite reaches your ears or cannot penetrate your rehearsed belief.

    When finally pressed up against this blunt observation from “the world” outside, you hold up “the teaching” like a crucifix to stave off the heathen hordes. You retreat into the “certainty” that nothing like “the teaching” could ever have been written by a charlatan. But many believe that REB’s, or anyone else’s ability to artfully synthesize, categorize, and recapitulate ideas and insights does not bear any necessary relation to spiritual realization and maturity. Aside from his particular style of presentation and arrangement of things, there is nothing uniquely described in REB’s literature that does not appear elsewhere. … he has borrowed from or been heavily influenced by numerous others to whom he has given no credit at all. The fact that he has been able to articulate the free and transcendent relationship to life that we all instinctively feel in moments, coupled with the fact that he writes and speaks about many things which are beyond the realm of your personal experience, is offered as “proof” that he is spiritually superior to you.

    Many of you have apparently forgotten the simple truth that actions speak louder than words, and that insights which are not practiced are meaningless, if not dangerous. Your distraction with a complexity of abstractions and a sophisticated, “pre-packaged” context within which to interpret everything has left you “incapable of seeing the forest for the trees.” “By their fruits shall ye know them”, said one spiritual teacher nearly 2,000 years ago. And it is on this basis that each one of us must draw our own conclusions regarding the spiritual status of Robert Burton.

    I am so glad to no longer be where many of you are, and I wanted to take the opportunity to tell you why. In many respects it would have been far easier to write this entire matter off as just another set of experiences. But I have felt too much passion and serious caring to have made that choice.

    Should any of you meander out beyond the fences and psychological barriers of FOF, you will find that there is “unavoidably” only god outside your temple walls. Your spiritual life may change in form, but it will continue. And there are many people who have been through what you have experienced and can thus offer help. Many have needed and received support in order to make the critical transition back to a measure of self-respectability.

    …It would have been preferable for all of you to have done the work of provoking this discussion. But I understand why this could not be so and trust that you will soon recognize the benefits which will ultimately come from what has been started. If in the end there is a bit more openness and honesty in FOF, a degree of self-critical inspection, or a drop less arrogance and exclusivity on the part of Robert Burton, we will have all been served…

    Sincerely,
    Mark D. Miller Sausalito, California USA
    ______________________________________________
    Now, before you dig too deep in your memories trying to remember that name, I should let you know that I needed to make a few small changes to the letter. Do the following substitutions, and you have the original letter:
    Bubbles Burton = Franklin Jones
    Robert Burton = Da Free John
    REB = DFJ
    FOF = JDC (Johannine Daist Communion)

    The idea is obvious, hopefully. Just change the names and the rest of the text, despite its length, complexity and level of detail, is a near perfect fit – word for word, point for point. Would Margaret Singer just smile and nod knowingly at this point, Joel?

    Nothing unique in REB’s approach, nor in its results in his students.

    From:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Adi_Da/Archive1#Why_Adidam_settled_the_lawsuits_and_for_how_much


  9. Good substantial armourments of True Spirit being written recently. Sorry I cannot dwell on my e-machine/windows xp Chariot of Fire too long.

    Thought this declaration explained to me by a dyslexically innumerate Protestant Eireann (you figure that phrase out using a dictionary if necessary) might help in the legal underpinnings:-

    Nigel: How about a Class Action lawsuit?

    Arthur: Ah yes, ‘we the people undersigned intend to
    sue you, the Corporation, with our resources
    both money and information ($44M would be nice
    -my addition!).

    Will write this evening (United Kingdom time)……….Nigel.


  10. Dear Anna: #16-520

    Thank you so much for your post. It shines among others as a real gem. Its honesty and truthfulness brought tears to my eyes. You will undoubtedly inspire many others to look deeply into themselves for the answers to the difficult questions facing all of us.

    “…he (is) simply attempting to align (with) me, with the minimum possible personal involvement.”

    Perfect description of how a sociopathic/psychopathic personality functions in the world.

    Your analogy of the sequence as a gateway to higher states is exquisite and bears repeating:

    “Imagine that you are longing to go swim in the sea, you stand at the water’s edge and then instead of leaping right in, believing that it’s not possible to enter directly, you take six steps parallel to the waters edge, at each step you say something like: Splash, float, cool, refresh, cool, Splashhhhh…, believing that at the end of these steps you will be actually be in the water, but of course you are not… you remain on the hard hot sand, to get in would involve dropping the notion of a prescribed route there, and this would be ‘wrong’ it would be contrary to your teacher’s instructions, so you persist in walking next to the waters for which you long, step, step, step, step, step, step… perhaps you will feel disheartened and defeated and give up in the end, or perhaps you will continue for ever, eternally failing, eternally missing your goal.”

    A word about Theo. Thank you for that, too. I believe your account is the first time his story was revealed on the blog.

    I want to assure you and others that doing the sequence is most certainly not the cause of Theo’s break with reality, which may be misconstrued from your post. I regard the sequence as fairly benign, and with the ‘right’ intention and understanding you could substitute your own words for the same temporary effect. (If you do so, I recommend changing the words monthly.) Theo’s symptoms fit the mold of the onset of schizophrenia. The symptoms typically commence between the ages of 17-21, about the time a person begins separating from their parents. Often the symptoms wax and wane, and can even go into remission for long periods. People afflicted often seem impervious to cold, can ‘read’ other’s thoughts, and have a wide-eyed wonder about them, as you might if you started having visual or auditory hallucinations. They often neglect their personal hygiene, and can emotionally and intellectually withdraw as well.

    I hope you will continue posting, your voice here is invaluable.


  11. Good morning ~

    Hello #559/16 ~

    You wrote ~

    “He does not know how to deal with dying people. When Peter Bishop was sick with Lung cancer “terminal” Robert went to visit him and asked Edi-th “Can he speak?” Peter from his sick bed replied “Yes”. The man has no idea and is afraid of dying. You can not lie around dying people they feel it, false personality is completely useless around dying people. Our Robert Burton does not have the being to deal with dying people, have you?
    Have you spend 3 or more days with a terminal ill person.
    Fat Boy that is a real “teaching”.”
    __________________________

    Yes, my friend, I sat with this for awhile, trying to sense what it is that we are ‘really’ doing by exposing Robert Burton’s non-conscious responses to events that would ‘normally’ (my normally) produce a type of reverence and quiet no-little-me awe…

    I recall my Great grandmother’s death, how it floored all that was petty (and pretty) in me, how it vacuumed out all meaning in ‘my life’, how it showed me the no-thing-ness of everyone’s incredible tenacity to go, go, go… For she was certainly, profoundly staying, right where she was and would even go as far as to die there, so deep was her stillness that death seemed to be a natural ‘next step’…

    I mystified my great grandmother’s death, yet, too, it was a sort of reflection-ing that had occurred in me as well, it did something to me; at first it ‘made me’ resentful of others taking life for granted, brought judgment of my parents and relatives immaturity in the whole matter, then it called down, I realized that it was all mine really, that even my grandmother dying was me somehow, because certainly I could not relate to it as she did… it was me seeing me; the rest was up to ‘her’ and the mysteries she took with her, both solved and simply hers.

    One thing I do recall Robert Burton saying concerning Perter Bishop’s deathbed time was ~ “Now he is closer to my state.”

    I also recall when he was being carried down the steps of the theatron by students and seated to watch the ballet;
    I too remember how profoundly insane I thought it was that his experience was not seen as the ‘real ballet’ to watch; yet, this is Robert Burton’s style, to put silk pants on the Boatman of the River Styx, while he’s reaching out to you for the coin for safe passage over… Nothing personal Robert, these are simply observations, perhaps even a suggestion, that when someone is ending their role on this earth, try not to prolong the impression of yours by turning the dying and dead into lipstick dispensers.
    ________________________________________

    Hello 428/16 ~

    So far as the Greaeagle apartment; not sure how old your information is, but that place was sold a very long time ago and was always in Goldman’s name. So far as the property being put in AG’s name; that sort of Jimmy Cricket sort of dancing around is not going to save the Fellowship of Friends from loosing it in a class action lawsuit, particularly when AG will be listed as one of the party’s being sued, alongside the Fellowship itself; think of class action lawsuits as ‘blind nets’, they drag the bottom of the whole lake, bringing up stuff that the fisherman may never have aimed to ‘catch’, though nevertheless is right there for the consideration.

    If I were E. (Anna’s sister) and C., I’d be changing the co-signer on their house loan from Robert Burton to someone outside the inner circle; and rearrange the free land Robert Burton gave them to be something more profoundly ‘right looking’… Just a suggestion; that can also go for S.D. and M.D. across the street.

    Although I do not hold the handles to the cloud maker; a storm is coming Grandpa, stop watching traffic, get off the rocker and get inside, “your house is on fire.”
    ____________________________________

    Hello 440/16 ~

    Yes John, we’re (not sure about the ‘we’ part yet) working on it (I hope) ~ You too can assist, the letter section is up now

    THANKS SHEIK for that, thank you very much.

    ____________________________________

    Hello 542/16 ~

    Defending what we perceive as ‘the living’ to spite what we perceive as ‘the dead’ won’t help anyone, particularly Nick; everyone is still alive and well, even Brian: and no, he’s not pissed off at me.
    ____________________

    Hello 564/16 ~

    Thank you Joseph G., thank you.

    ____________________

    Hello 520/16 ~

    Anna, could you get in touch with me via the blog and give me an email address where I can reach you; I believe I can assist with Theo.

    _____________

    P.S. Hello Sheik, I guess you did not get that long letter/reply to Fat Boy I sent about three/four days ago(?)
    Thanks again for the letter section…
    _____________

    Love to You All


  12. on July 28, 2007 at 4:51 pm Laughing Love

    Hello Anna (520).

    You’ve expressed yourself so beautifully.

    I simply want to thank you.

    LL


  13. on July 28, 2007 at 5:22 pm Critical Mass

    Unoanimo wrote,

    “So far as the Greaeagle apartment; not sure how old your information is, but that place was sold a very long time ago and was always in Goldman’s name.”

    The “was” in my post applied to Graeagle.


  14. deleted at the author’s request


  15. Hello ‘Critical Mass’ ~

    You wrote ~

    “but Graeagle (Robert’s old Sierra Nevada apartment) and the Palm Springs apartment are/were in the name of Abe G.”
    _____________________________________________

    It was the “are” that I thought was a bit ‘off’; “were” is closer to the current situation.

    Actually I could not find a “was”… go figure.

    It’s cool, I’ve got your drift now…

    :)


  16. Hello,

    I’m not sure if I’m writing to the whle world but in 7:11 Unanimo asked for my email address so here it is:

    a.tudor@chello.nl


  17. Thanks to Ann T#520 for her earnest and beautiful post and also to Life Person #558 for an excellent, slap-in-the-face description of Robert Earl Burton.

    I suggest printing and distributing these in the Fellowship and the community at large.


  18. on July 28, 2007 at 5:51 pm Laughing Love

    Hello All.

    I echo Vena’s sentiment about “Life Person’s” post (6-558).

    If you haven’t yet read it I recommend it highly.

    The appeal is in its simplicity.

    LL


  19. Vena 17/17 ~

    May the Zerox be with you.

    ;-0


  20. # 520 Dear Anna,

    Thanks for sharing this long slice of your life and for being honest about your perceptions and feelings during that times.

    Just before I left , I was speaking with some friends (some are still in) and we came to the conclusion that it was like if the teacher was selling us the air we are breathing.
    I make this comparison with what you said “ you cannot find something which is already there”.

    This is quite a liberation to think that this can be so easily within reach.

    During your time in the fof, I remember you were quite pretty, now you are beautiful.
    The best to you.
    Aline


  21. Hello Anna,

    Your post has made me laugh with great joy since I started participating on the blog. In fact I have not experienced this much joy in years. I am delighted with your freedom.

    From one angle having been in the fellowship is similar to the situation of people that have been on drugs for years. It then takes years to recover one’s self enough to start experiencing normality as “alright”.

    I’m wishing to address your plea to Parson’s about how to regain the experience of oneness not because I have reached it but because I’m also looking for it!

    My first three months in the fellowship were not too different to your friend Theo’s experience. In fact, every angle I ever gave in meetings was trying to return to the fellowship those experiences that the fellowship had given me.

    The last six years in Isis I lost most traces of that beauty but I am not overly disappointed by that.

    Many of you mention how presence is there and need not be looked for. Or how it came to one, somewhat out of nowhere.
    In my case always some effort before but the quality of the state was way beyond the effort so immense gratitude accompanied them.

    We’ve been concentrating on focusing the I for years and reaching some higher states, great states of understanding mostly of the unity of things but the states come without our will as if a deeper, higher dimension suddenly walked into our little being.

    I don’t need to say we, so it is fine to say I but by your experience Anna, I can see that it is very similar to mine and probably a lot of other students, who have described it similarly.

    You mention the great separation between higher and lower centers and indeed, while I may agree looking from that angle, what is it that is needed for us to bring them together so that the high state is not simply a flitting experience but we fill the ordinary moments of our life with the unity and intensity of the high state?

    This concerns me because I have long seen a tendency to look for those states like drug addicts without giving more meaning to the practical world of our every day life and I am convinced that it is in our every day life, in this world with all its difficulties that meaning has to be brought from and to.

    Allow my disperse mind to give fleeting ideas, maybe others will put them together in better order.

    One of the points for me is that in a higher state one knows unity while in the low state one knows separation. Separation is imaginary in as much as we have bought them from our programming. We’ve committed ourselves to competing with each other, to separating ourselves in classes of every kind, money, education, alchemy and so forth.

    In a higher state the perception of one’s oneness with the rest of human beings is actualized, in fact. the living experience of one’s humanity is actualized as an inseparate entity to other human beings but in the lower state we are separated. What and how then can we actualize these understanding of our bondness if not with re-connecting? Like in this blog?

    My question is: It is more than fine to experience the beauty of oneness in a high state but is it not less fine to practice the beauty of connecting with each other and theworld around us in the lower state, of actually practicing the understanding of one’s being?

    I am not talking about it theoretically. It is not just pretty. In a way what is amazing about Robert Burton is that to me everything he said was right, the individual approach to consciousness was acurate but he then separated us from the world to practice it, he divided us into different classes of citizens, he used us against each other and ourselves and he violated the integrity of every man he bought and ours who supported him.

    It was not the theory in as much as the individual is concerned what was so absurd, it was the fact that he stripped the individual from the world outside and in so doing, took away his being because it is in the interaction with the world outside that being can develop in the fourth way.

    Thank you Anna and all of you for this morning’s bread!


  22. thanks anna


  23. on 28 Jul 2007 at 12:56 am
    545 Hans
    Hello,
    I have a question, why to blame others for our mistakes and decisions?

    so, if you decided to do something, be a man, and be responsible for your own decisions and mistakes and do not blame others.

    Bullshit
    Speaking the truth
    is part of healing
    Telling the The victims of abuse to not blame the perpetrators is like telling the victim of a crime not to report it to the police and go through the criminal prosecution process but to be forgiving.

    These are general principals the blog is specific
    it is about a specific group of criminal co conspirators who systematically used the cover of the 4th way and the Gurdjieff Ouspensky teachings to create a form of pyrimad scheme that functions to enrich and empower a mad man at the center of a web of deception and lies.

    Perhaps a use for positive imagination is to attempt to visualize what the Fellowship of Friends might have been if Robert was not mad. What if all the money did not go to his personal uses, his debauchery, his excessive spending on items of poor taste, poorly conceived and even more poorly executed octaves. What if instead he used the funds for adequate housing, supporting the vineyards instead of milking them dry. Rebuilding the restaurant.

    Well what ifs are useless in the real world except to understand some of the consequences of his madness in regards to the group and the individuals he lied to , misled , marginalized an raped.

    In the Fellowship from what I understand freedom of speah is limited. The blog has a pre eminent function of allowing freedom of speech and the circulation of the facts, the truth about the criminal Robert Burton and his co conspirators who control the false “4th way school” called the Fellowship of Friends.


  24. Although it is 10 years later; all of this article is still applicable today and then some…

    _____________________________________________

    Fellowship Of Friends-A Cult In Oregon House, California.
    Another lawsuit filed against F.O.F/Renaissance Vineyard &
    Winery, Robert Burton, Girard Haven, Abraham Goldman, Helga
    Ruth Mueller, and Clair Bowen–directors of Fellowship of
    Friends, Inc. The lawsuit brought by Troy Buzbee and filed
    on April 29, 1996 in the County of Yuba.
    Complaint for Damages is in Case # 060209
    1. Fraud
    2. Intentional infliction of emotional distress
    3. Negligent infliction of emotional distress
    4. Breach of fiduciary duty
    5. Negligent supervision
    6. Sexual misconduct with a minor
    7. Sexual harassment
    8. Wrongful discharge
    9. Negligence
    10. Failure to pay minimum wage
    11. Battery
    Fellowship Of Friends Cult – By Michelle M. Milligan
    “Within the pages of the case are facts and details concerning sexual and perverted acts practiced by Burton, his philosophies and ideologies expected of the members.”
    According to the case, Robert Burton, “The Teacher”, as referred to by members, began the corporation Fellowship of Friends in 1971.

    The “Fourth Way philosophy is taught and practiced by the Fellowship of Friends. The location of The Fellowship of Friends herein referred to as the F.O.F. is in Oregon House, however the F.O.F. refers to their location rather as “The Renaissance”.

    Troy Buzbee’s father became a member of the F.O.F. in 1976. Richard Buzbee’s son Troy was only seven years of age. Richard Buzbee was told that if he paid his teaching payments each month and followed the tasks and suggestions of the teacher, Robert Burton that he would
    enter “the way,” become “conscious” and “immortal.” He was told that Burton was a “conscious being” and that he was “celibate.” He was told that he could trust Burton completely with his body and soul.

    From 1976 through May 1994 Troy’s father was a member of the Fellowship of Friends. As Plaintiff Troy Buzbee grew up he regarded Robert Burton as a God.
    According to the case distinction between Burton and Troy’s father were not clear to him at times. Troy Buzbee became a member on October 10, 1966 when he was 17 years of age, virgin.

    After Defendant Burton and Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC’s factual representations and undue influence caused Troy Buzbee to lose his ability to think independently, he became increasingly subject to the domination, control and undue influence practiced, implemented, and used by said Defendants.

    In direct consequence of such deception, coercive persuasion, brainwashing and undue influence, Defendant Burton used Troy Buzbee, among hundreds of
    other young men, for the partial gratification of his satyriasis, an uncontrollable compulsion to engage in sexual conduct with scores, if not hundreds, of men. In addition thereof, Defendant Burton exploited Troy Buzbee for the provision of cheap labor, well under the minimum
    wage.

    Said exploitation continued off and on until the time when Troy Buzbee terminated his membership with Fellowship of Friends, Inc., in August 1994.

    Commencing in December 1986, Burton, would have “teaching dinners” during which he would ply Troy with alcoholic beverages. After one particular such meal in December 1986, Burton instructed Troy to come to Burton’s room and to shut and lock the door. Burton told Troy that
    Burton was “an angel in a man’s body”, and the gods wished for Troy to be close to Burton. Defendant Burton then held in an embrace.

    Defendant Burton said, “influence C wishes you to be close with me. “He repeatedly assured Troy that his “soul was not (his) body, and that the angels wished for (Troy) to be with (Burton).” Burton explicitly told Troy that the “angels” wanted Troy to disrobe, and the “angels” wanted Troy to submit to Burton’s sexual advances because Burton himself was an “angel”, a goddess in a man’s body.”

    Burton said to Troy, “I promise you I am an angel in a man’s body.” “You have to remember that I did not write the play about Robert Burton.” Burton would kiss Troy on the forehead which he said represented the seat of the soul and then instruct Troy to “separate” from his body and just “let go”. Burton reminded Troy that Troy’s
    body would soon decay while his soul was immortal.

    Burton told Troy that he would talk to him after he died using the same soft voice he used at the time. Burton explained that for him the interaction with Troy went beyond conventional sex and into “supersex”, which was a
    method characterological evolution.

    Defendant Burton stated, “My
    sexuality is on the level of Super-Sex.” From December ‘86–April ‘94, Troy submitted to Burton’s demands, which were: Drop out of college, provide Burton with sexual favors and provide hour long massages after Burton had been sexually serviced.

    Burton used money from the corporation to pay other members for performing specific sexual acts. In denominations of $50 or $100.

    The case mentions one case of “specific sexual acts” performed on Burton by Karl Feldman, Troy Buzbee’s best friend. Burton spoke openly about his sexuality in the form of jokes at the all-male dinners that he would often lavishly host at all-male, all-you-can-drink “symposiums.” He would boast that “one hundred boys would not be enough(for his sexual appetite).”

    Troy worked at the gatehouse on F.O.F. property. Burton directed certain members who are “guards” to arm themselves with firearm-type weapons. Burton then had him become his “personal” guard. During the next four years Troy observed numerous men in Burton’s room in a single night. Troy was asked to massage Burton after his lovers left.

    According to the case, Burton suffers from sexually transmitted diseases. He made no effort to tell Troy. As a consequence, Troy acquired viral herpes. In addition, Troy suffered from stomach ulcers.

    Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, Inc. was built as a bomb-
    shelter in obeisance to Defendant Burton’s prophecies regarding massive and wide-spread disaster and chaos in the near future.

    Defendant Burton uses Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, Inc as his alter ego in the same way he uses Defendant Fellowship Of Friends, Inc.

    According to the case…..
    At all times mentioned herein Defendants Girard Haven, Abraham Goldman (also an attorney), Helga Ruth Mueller, and Clair Bowen were members of the board of directors of the Defendant corporation, Fellowship Of Friends, INC.

    At all times mentioned herein all of the Defendants were acting as the agents and servants of each other and in doing the acts complained of acted within the scope of their agency and employment and at the direction and with the knowledge and ratification of the other Defendants.

    The Defendant Burton at all times mentioned herein, dominated, influenced, and controlled, and does now dominate, influence and control the Defendant corporations and the directors and officers thereof, as well as the business, property and affairs of the Defendant corporations.

    At all times mentioned herein, there existed and does now exist, a unity of interest and ownership between the Defendant Burton and the Defendant corporations; the individuality and separateness of said Defendant and Defendant corporations has ceased; and despite
    knowledge of these facts, Defendant corporations and its officers and directors have had notice of acquiesced in and agreed, consented to, and ratified the conduct of Defendant Burton as herein alleged,

    At all times since its corporation to the present time, the Defendant corporations have been and are now a mere shell and naked framework which the Defendant Burton has used and does now use as a conduit for the conduct of his personal business, property and affairs.

    Defendant corporations are subject to a unity of control, and its corporate structure was created as an attempt to avoid payment of taxes and civil judgments and to confuse courts and those seeking redress for these Defendant’s acts. Due to the unity of personnel, commingling of assets, and commonality of business objectives, these Defendant’s attempts at separation of Defendant corporations and
    Defendant Burton should be disregarded.

    Defendant Robert Burton directs, controls and operates Defendant corporations and uses them to enforce his orders and carry out his attacks on groups, agencies or individuals, including the acts against Troy alleged herein, to the extent there is no separate identity between Burton and said Defendant corporations and any claim of such separate identity should be disregarded.

    The Defendant corporations were created and are being continued and maintained pursuant to a fraudulent plant, scheme and device, created and operated by the Defendant Burton, whereby the benefits and
    product of the income and revenue of the Defendant corporations are diverted to the use and enjoyment of the Defendant Burton through the Defendant corporations to himself while concealing the truth of his financial relationship with Defendant corporations.

    Prior to the formation of F.O.F. and Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, Burton formed a conspiracy in concert between the corporations for the express purpose and intent of developing and implementing a plan and scheme which would permit Burton and co-conspirators to:

    a. use, abuse and exploit the fiduciary relationship between the Defendant Burton and the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC,, on one hand and the members of and contributors to the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC,, on the other hand
    for their own personal unlawful gain; and

    b. to use, abuse and exploit the fiduciary relationship between the Defendant Burton, as ‘founding minister’, and selective members of the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC., for the express purpose and intent of performing unlawful and perverted sexual acts upon the persons of said members, including Troy, and by causing certain of the members, including Troy, to work for Defendant corporation Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, INC.,

    and Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC.

    That all times pertinent hereto, the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC., and the Defendant Renaissance Vineyard and Winery, INC, were formed and operated by Burton and said other Defendants for their sole and exclusive aggrandizement and to create an ambiance of neo-religious import which was and is currently being used by Burton and the other Defendants to manipulate, unduly influence, and control the minds, bodies, and the assets of the members of the Defendant
    corporations for the sole and exclusive purpose of 1) satisfying Burton’s satyriasis-his voracious appetite for perverted sexual pleasure and elegant life-style; and

    2) diverting the contributions and donations of the membership to their own use and purposes.

    Members of the Fellowship are required to donate ever-increasing sums of money as they become further and further vested as members of the Fellowship with the caveat that when donations required of them are
    not timely and completely made their membership is either revoked or they become indentured servants of the Defendant corporation in residence at its principal place of business for nominal compensation and required to perform degrading menial tasks of a full-time basis
    at the whim and caprice of the Defendant Burton

    and other authorized representatives of the corporate Defendant Fellowship Of Friends, INC., and Defendant Renaissance Vineyard And Winery, INC.

    All donations made by members of the Fellowship are devoted either to the continuing worldwide recruitment of new and replacement members with fresh money to contribute to “the cause,” or the acquisition of assets, including but not limited to, Defendant Renaissance Vineyard and Winery, INC,

    which are ostensibly being acquired for the use and
    benefit of the membership but which are in reality being acquired for the personal benefit and aggrandizement of Defendant Burton and some or all of the other individual Defendants named herein.

    Meanwhile, Defendant Burton annexes free and unfettered use and enjoyment in and to the assets of the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC., Defendant corporation Renaissance Vineyard And Winery, INC., and the benefits to be derived there from, including, but not limited to, the provision money for bribes to young male members to prostitute themselves in an intensification of
    Defendant Burton’s compulsion and demand for sexual servicing of his long-standing state of satyriasis.

    The entire, purpose, scope and extent of the aforesaid plan and scheme as implemented by said Defendants is to effectively deny the members of the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC., not only the right to participate in its rituals and teachings on an ongoing basis but also, and of equal importance, to deny members of said Defendant corporation, including Plaintiff, of their just right to participate as beneficiaries entitled to use and enjoy
    the property of said Defendant corporation.

    Troy suffered from fright, horror, grief, shame, anger, humiliation, embarrassment, chagrin, disappointment, worry, self-loathing, self-betrayal and self distrust.

    Haven, Goldman Mueller, Bowen knew of all these afore-mentioned practices of Burton.

    They have agreed and abetted Burton in his efforts. They knew of Burton’s diseases and said nothing.

    At all times pertinent hereto, Defendant Burton, and the other Defendants, caused Troy’s mental and emotional centers to become deceptively and coercively inculcated with the following tenets:

    a. Defendant Burton communicated with “C-influence” which was provided by “44 angels” which were each individually named including, but not limited to, Jesus, “Benjamin Franklin,” “Lincoln” and “Bach,”

    and that Burton was the Fellowship’s only connection with
    said “angels.”

    b. Defendant was and is the most important person on the planet since Christ.

    Defendant Burton claims a numerology of consciousness where he has already advanced to a man number 7.3, with Christ being a man number 8.

    Burton is above man-made laws, a moral law unto himself.

    c. “C-influence” brought Troy to the Fellowship and Defendant Burton, and that Troy’s interactions with Defendant Burton would be the most important relationship that Troy could ever have.

    d. Defendant Burton is assisted by “C-influence” to guide the spiritual evolution of the member “students” with “shocks” designed to help them “awaken”.

    e. The members of the Fellowship are special, and set apart by higher forces for survival. Members of Defendant Burton’s “inner circle” must associate only among Fellowship members must disregard non-members, and demonize ex-members who are critical of Burton whom “the =gods” will “destroy.”

    Such ex-members’ opportunities for growth and
    development are terminated failing to submit to Burton.

    f. Defendant Burton possesses gift of prophecy that is infallible.

    g. In 1998 California will “fall” in huge earthquake whereupon people will die in massive numbers.

    h. In 2006 there will be an Armageddon, where all humans everywhere except for members of the Fellowship will be expunged by higher forces.

    i. Members of the Fellowship will inherit the world’s material goods and act as the “Ark” for a new civilization based on that of the Greeks of about 450 B.C., and are thus presently preparing themselves to bear the torch of civilization now and in the future.

    j. By following Defendant Burton’s directives so as to gain “being” (depth of character) through separating from suffering and immersing themselves in culture, mostly Western art, classical music, opera and ballet, Fellowship members, including Troy, are preparing themselves
    for being the “Ark”.

    k. Everything the members of the Fellowship, including Troy, had learned since birth was “false” and caused him to exist in a kind of “waking sleep.”

    The Defendant Burton informed Troy that in order
    to “awaken”, he had to replace what was “false” with what was “true” which was defined as the system of ideas as The Fourth Way, including all the “new” knowledge that Burton had added to that system.

    l. Defendant Burton stated, and states, to the general Fellowship and to Troy, that without “C-influence” Troy could not “awaken”.

    m. Defendant Burton stated, and states, to the general Fellowship and to Troy, that to “awaken” was the only way to avoid having the purpose of his life be to provide “food for the moon.”

    n. Defendant Burton stated, and states, that Troy’s people outside the group as “life-people,” he said were “tragedies.” Burton said Troy’s own mother was such a “life-person” and that the Fellowship was Troy’s “real” family and Burton was his “Father.”

    o. Defendant Burton stated, and states, to the general Fellowship and to Troy, that any challenge to the extent of Burton’s excesses of greed and satyriasis to be a lack of understanding of his practice of “crazy wisdom” which he asserts that he must force himself to perform is forcing himself to live that way for the good of the members as a “lesson.”

    _______________________________End Quote

    l.t.y.a.


  25. 571 Bass Ackwards

    478 a former student

    Thanks for your input. I have to say, from my perspective as a foot soldier on the ground here, “with all due respect Sir, it does seem to be solution for myself and for so many of my Friends.”

    Perhaps this is true. It does not resonate with me. If you read Anna T’s most excellent story I have experienced the condition of “awakening” several times. The one she described witnessing in her young student is one I experienced myself.

    About 1995 I went through a process over a period of several weeks which eventually peaked with a moment of oneness with the creater. Fortunately I had the system to assist in keeping “grounded”. I learned a number of things. One was that when higher centers function, when what we call “higher states” are circulating it is the lower centers that limits what can be processed. There is misinterpretation, imagination, and magical thinking, as well as new insights, greater attention, and a more complete consciousness.

    Being able to sustain higher states requires the development of “being”. That is the lower functions.This is not theory. This is my reality. The single most valuable experience I had in “awakening” was to have a benchmark to compare my “normal” state to . In other words ,for me true awakening is a realization of my own sleep.

    For myself I believe Robert Burton did experience an awakening in the early “70’s but failed to develop the being in the lower functions to sustain the higher states and the humility to accept the realization of his own sleep.

    When I read lengthy post’s ( like #573 I think is worth a reading…)

    It does nothing for me, provides no new insight’s. This however does not mean it may not be what you describe the next step for Fellowship Members who have grown rigid in their thinking and understanding who need something to stimulate “thinking in a new way” and opening themselves up to new experiences.

    Anna’s story resonates with me because it agrees with my own experience.

    Duncan Shockley FOF 1973-1980


  26. Now here comes this idiot savant.
    The most positive aspect of the blog is the telling of the truth about Robert Burton and his crimes.
    The second is the true process of healing
    which includes the discharge of the poisons that have corrupted the inner being of Members and former members.

    The Christ said in the gospel of Thomas “make the inner as the outer and the outer as the inner”
    True healing in this context includes accepting and processing the internal contradictions fostered in the Fellowship and making them external.

    That these expressions come out negative is not in itself a negative action. It is a process of discharging this negative contradictory material ,what is literally the waste matter of an ongoing inner process of digesting the experiences of the past and moving towards a new and higher understanding.

    394 Medicine Man

    To all who are interested in HEALING
    this blog and the whole situation,
    please, READ CAREFULLY!

    THE TIME HAS COME.

    THE TIME TO HEAL.

    OURSELVES AND OUR REFLECTIONS.


  27. on 26 Jul 2007 at 12:01 am
    359 C influence
    To all currant Fellowship of Friends members

    As a divine messenger from higher mind I have a task to pass on specific information.
    I am not a teacher and will accept no students.

    The prophecies were a test to see if you would stay loyal to the school.
    You passed as a reward you are here by given permission to Remember yourselves and enjoy the rewards of your efforts. No depression, earthquakes or nuclear war now what?

    Robert Burton was entrusted with the care of our little nursery for souls and has abused that trust.

    Have no fear, there is justice and you and he will all get exactly what you earned.

    The next step in your development is simple-Be the words

    I now absent myself from this blog

    The true teachers are amongst you

    Seek and you shall find
    Ask and it shall be delivered unto you

    “The way to liberation is to train yourself to live in the present without
    waiting to become anything. Give up becoming this or that, live without
    cravings, and experience this present moment with full attention.”
    The Buddha


  28. 7 I think is worth a reading…

    This post is exactly why I cannot find much of value in this approach. Saying words cannot describe something then introducing an entire system of sophist though that supports this premise and goes on and on is a trap. I don’t question the reality of being I question the need for yet another new form.


  29. 24 Duncan: “I learned a number of things. One was that when higher centers function, when what we call “higher states” are circulating it is the lower centers that limits what can be processed….Being able to sustain higher states requires the development of “being”. That is the lower functions.”

    Many of us have had experiences of higher states like you describe. And it may well be that they are limited by “lower functions”. Trouble is that these states are unususual and unsustainable whatever you do. I’ve never met anyone who’s in a permanent higher state, have you?

    But as has been said here many times it doesn’t matter anyway as we’re all permanently in presence/awareness whether or not we like it or realise it.

    RN


  30. It seems to me that in the late 70’s those in the know passed it down that Robert Burton said that we (Fellowship members) had about four years to save our money because of an impending economic depression.

    This reason I remember this is because I told somebody outside the Fellowship of Friends.

    I dont know what he did with that passed on information if anything, but since reading this blog, I hope he didnt do anything. I havent spoken to him since and doubt whether he remembers.

    The point is that in my estimation 1981-1982 the economy according to the passed on information was going into hard times.

    Now I think that the law of seven kick in and Robert Burton went down and headed the other way.


  31. May I suggest, while I get some practical emails sent to my natural father, that you all try – Google – ‘bi-polar affective disorder – artists’. It will give you insight into the ‘agony and the ecstasy’ that REB talked about – maybe he has ‘the Force’ – but abusing it. I am absolutely sure that Walt Whitman suffered from the disorder – what is normal anyway? Average or just plain boring? ‘Be yourself, neither feign affection’ – Desiderata. Oh, decisions decisions. All the best with The Quest until I post again……………Nigel.


  32. Don’t miss post 16-520 folks!

    Bass Ackwards 57 “So, for any student who has been around 10, 20 or 30 years, we know that Presence is IT. And we buy into the “Cult” side of things to varying degrees, each to his own propensity. For all those who are not crystallized Howard Carters, understanding someone like Maharaj (Nisargadatta) can be the ultimate and freeing ray of light.”

    Funny, three of us were discussing this over dinner last night. One consenus-type thought was that the word Presence means two utterly different things in the teachings of the FoF and of Nisargadatta. What happened to us when we first got into this a year or so ago is that initially there were some attempts to see similarities, but as all the old FoF anf Fourth Way concepts dropped away (wonderful feeling!), we saw the futility of all that.

    This is just us, of course!

    x RN


  33. Ironically, today I received a letter to my home address from Wells Fargo for someone with the first name of “Hafiz”. I chuckled to myself. Don’t think that if you leave the Fellowship of Friends that you leave the school, or that synchronicity magically ceases. It’s all whether you choose to interpret, spin, or ignore it that matters. It created a nice moment for me, and then I moved on to the next moment with a smile.

    Dear Rhino Neal ~#280:

    “Being able to sustain higher states requires the development of “being”. That is the lower functions. Many of us have had experiences of higher states like you describe. And it may well be that they are limited by “lower functions”. Trouble is that these states are unusual and unsustainable whatever you do. I’ve never met anyone who’s in a permanent higher state, have you? But as has been said here many times it doesn’t matter anyway as we’re all permanently in presence/awareness whether or not we like it or realize it.”

    I don’t believe that higher states are limited by the lower centers. In fact the lower centers are enhanced by higher states, in a systemic or holistic way. Otherwise, higher states would make us insane, which is sometimes the case in the unprepared or novice.

    It’s your acquired personality that would limit the state by identifying with it. You run the risk of being deluded as Franz Anton Mesmer who believed that he was the sole source ofthe ‘animal magnetism’ that he used to cure people. He did not know himself. And by the same token, one’s lack of self-respect or lack of self-esteem (lack of healthy narcissism, that is) would prohibit one from recognizing that we are all indeed conscious all the time anyway. Without healthy narcissism we are prone to look for that validation outside of ourselves from an authority figure. If we pay someone, such as Robert Burton to tell us we are in a higher state, then what a great business! Paying someone to recognize something we already have! You can get that here for free.

    Just being present for one’s own personal gratification will limit your higher states, for there is no utility there for the Conscious Aspect of the Ray of Creation, you must participate in the ‘flow of things back to their source’ so to speak. They are a gift and you must pass that gift along to be gifted more.

    So IMO unless you are investing that higher state in the other two lines of work, you eventually will hit a wall. The other two lines of work are not independent of higher states! IMO, if your higher states are intermittent, then you do not have the other two lines of work functioning properly for yourself.

    If you open your eyes a little wider, look around the world (or your community), you see that there’s lots of work to be done-or undone as the case may be. Choose a good cause for your third line, surround yourself with loving friends (or create a loving family for yourself like I did) and you will do swimmingly well. Keep to your aim of realizing yourself in the present, always and everywhere, and you will attain spiritual virtuosity. The Fellowship and the fourth way diverged paths long ago. I hope you can tease out the gems of the fourth way as you move on done the road here. These I have verified for myself; they work, even though I parted with the Fellowship of Friends 22 years ago.

    The only way I have found to sustain a higher state for my first line of work exclusively, without the use of drugs or lunatic efforts, is Holotropic Breathing, which, BTW I only recommend, and am not in the business of facilitating. It’s a real trip! But hey, don’t listen to me; I’m just an old fart. Check it out for yourself.


  34. I was working on editing material for a
    “performance Art piece” based on “Leaves of Grass’
    While editing “Song of Myself” it came to me why I am offended at the non-dualists. It is nothing in the information which I generally agree with it is that in my opinion the majority of Fellowship of Friends both past and present have sufficient information what is lacking is being. That specific being which the 4th way is supposed to help develop ,individuality, consciousness, conscience and will. I am offended by the idea of continuing to look outside themselves for what can only be found internally.

    Perhaps Bass Ackwards is right and a new approach is needed.

    I question whether more words is the solution to a lack of effort to be the words.

    Walt Whitman wrote

    “I celebrate myself, and sing myself,
    And what I assume you shall assume
    For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you.
    I loafe and invite my soul,
    I lean and loafe at my ease observing
    a spear of summer grass.
    My tongue, every atom of my blood,
    form’d from this soil, this air,
    Creeds and schools in abeyance,
    Retiring back a while sufficed at what they are,
    but never forgotten,
    I harbor for good or bad,
    I permit to speak at every hazard,
    Nature without check with original energy.

    Have you reckon’d a thousand acres much?
    have you reckon’d the earth much?
    Have you practis’d so long to learn to read?
    Have you felt so proud to get at the meaning of poems?
    Stop this day and night with me
    and you shall possess the origin of all poems,
    You shall possess the good of the earth and sun,
    (there are millions of suns left,)
    You shall no longer take things at second or third hand,
    nor look through the eyes of the dead,
    nor feed on the spectres in books,
    You shall not look through my eyes either,
    nor take things from me,
    You shall listen to all sides and filter them from your self. 3


  35. on July 29, 2007 at 2:15 am Truth is Where You Find It

    There is a rule-of-thumb of espionage which goes:
    Observe the facts,
    ONLY the facts,
    and extrapolate backwards to discover WHO benefits from a given situation,
    and this will give you the key to the underlying truth.


  36. James (I’ll be) Blunt – BACK TO BEDLAM – first track – Beautiful Dawn – Oh ! Brave new world, that hath such people in’t (Amanda – The Tempest by William shakespeare) – Second Track – My LIFE IS BRED – MY LIFE IS PURE – Hard to contain myself – NIRVANA PERMANENT _ Jayne confirmed it – Rodney Collin – “We must let Divine Madness take hold of us now, before Hell freezes over” – and if you go through Hell in your LIFE, go fast and furious so as not to be consumed by the flames – BUT QUENCH THE FIRE – ONCE AND FOR ALL (FOR YOURSELF).

    My crime in California was being made illegal (after an honourable start with an H1 visa for a year – but made defunct by unscrupulous employers and incompetent legalisers) – with not enough money to turn back to the UK and the need to press on (still that extra mile – ABBA [our Father] – I BELIEVE IN ANGELS.

    And God becomes sick of bland saints and those with no character (even Empire Storm Troopers – Robert’s Robots – to refer to a popular character in a comic magazine of my youth).

    Fallen beings deserve saving – the lost lambs? – figure it out for yourself. Peter Pandaemonium/Peter Panacea. Nigel.


  37. #33 A Former Student

    It is a paradox (and yet not). Non-dualists speak from the perspective of dissolving the delusury individual perspective while Whitman seems to promote and exalt the personal experience. Both are expressing the same “something” (no-thing).

    Ken Wilber has written and speaks often of the need to develope higher “cognitive structures” (being) and has catagorized a hierarchy from modern developmental psychology. He posits that this developement is necessary to contain , maintain and translate higher states that occur.

    Perhaps you have looked at his work? I think you would find fascinating.


  38. PS.

    BTW, for the last five and a half years, my third line of work was my in depth involvement in a cooperative, parent-participation nursery school where my kids attended. (For Scott, it’s the twelve step program, it’s whatever works for you, as long as you believe in it.) Being there for 3-5 year old children as a mentor was a joyful, challenging, and rewarding experience, providing many shocks and greatly rounding out my understanding of myself, human development, and human nature. I highly recommend it, if you are starting out with kids. It is well worth the investment of time. I believe I made as much a difference in those kid’s lives and they did in mine.

    ***********

    What is the self that you remember the non-dualists ask? IMO, it is the particle of consciousness that you have been leased to grow while you walk on the planet. (Guess that makes me a material guy in a material world.) It is your personal and temporary point of singularity, the spectrum of which can extend from the vortex of a back hole to a radiant star. It has nothing to do with your tastes, your desires, your dreams, or the sum of your knowledge. You carry it with you always, and if you hold it too tightly, it falls through your fingers like sand. You can turn it up or down, but it doesn’t shut completely off until the end when it returns to its source. Look at life around you, how could it be otherwise? Just like a chard from a holographic plate or the DNA code contained in one cell, if you focus on it intently, it will recreate the entire paradigm from which it is derived. Some call it the soul. It weighs 21 grams…the difference in body weight between life and death.


  39. This NOURISHMENT from Rushkin follows your ‘wake-up’ call (35).

    FRONDES AGRESTES
    Section 1 (from a previously Sectioned Being Under the Mental Health Act)
    Principles of Art:-

    3. It is the common consent of men that whatever branch of PURSUIT ministers to the bodily comforts, and regards material uses, is ignoble, and whatever part is addressed to the MIND only, is noble; and that geology does better in reclothing dry bones and REVEALING LOST CREATIONS, than in tracing veins of lead and beds of iron; astronomy (listen Hugh Lusted!) better in opening to us the houses of heaven, than in teaching navigation; botany better in displaying STRUCTURE (Burton, you spineless jellyfish) than in expressing juices (ditto!); surgery better in investigating organisation than in setting limbs.- Only it is ordained that, for our encouragement, every step we make in the more EXALTED range of SCIENCE (Ken Branagh – I, big nose, Know) adds something to its PRACTICAL POSSIBILITIES; that all the great phenomena of nature, the knowledge of which is desired by THE ANGELS only, by us partly, as it reveals to farther vision the being and glory of Him in whom they rejoice and we live, dispense yet such KIND INFLUENCES and so much of material blessing as to be joyfully felt by all inferior creatures, and to be desired by them with such SINGLE DESIRE as the imperfection of their nature may admit; that the STRONG TORRENTS (Dopamine Overload – listen, Frank Aniseed ball – no placebos for me – I want the real pill – Huey Lewis “I want a new drug, one that won’t make me sick”), which in their own gladness, fill the hills with hollow thunder, and the value of winding LIGHT (Jesus Christ abstracted), have yet their bounden CHARGE OF FIELD to feed and barge to bear; that the fierce flames to which the Alps owes its upheaval and the volcano its terror, temper for the metal vein, and warm the quickening spring; and that for our incitement, I say, not our reward, – FOR KNOWLEDGE IS ITS OWN REWARD, -herbs have their healing, stones their preciousness, and stars their times.”

    Welcome to the WORLD of your possibilities, America.

    “Turn, O Libertad” – WW (III?)

    Nigel Harris Wallace ap Rhys. (that’s fighting talk-name!).


  40. Dear Whalerider,
    Could it be;
    There are no particles of consciousness, just one whole which “you” already are.
    Much Love,
    Ryan.


  41. Dear, “a former student” #33
    Non Dualism includes by definition everything and no-thing, including the concepts you outline. The individuality you promote is a dream within consciousness as are you.
    Much Love,
    Ryan


  42. on July 29, 2007 at 7:36 am Another Name

    Critical Mass 3

    I didn’t know that Brian Sisler was schizophrenic until he left the Fellowship

    Sooooooo many people are diagnosed with schizophrenic.
    So many tender souls are diagnosed with words. Have you ever spent time with them. They are also “Teachers” Try it out. Especially listen to them, be with them without judging or trying to put your personality forward.

    Many people I know who are being diagnosed as schizophrenic are very sensitive people, who might hear voices and speak with not invisible energies. Who else in the fellowship is doing that too? Is n’t he also medicated heavily?

    Please forget the labeling and please do not react negatively to this entry.

    Keep the good memories up from Brian and wish him peace.


  43. Burton (softly) said, “We are all slowly reaching the Finish Line”. We of the TRUE spirituality are slowly ‘laying it on the line’ to FINISH off Burton, ONCE AND FOR ALL. No more Foffing…………………………Champion the Wonder (Pack) Horse. xxxxx

    To 41 Another Name

    Russell Crowe “A Beautiful Mind” (good film – recommended)

    “It is only in the metaphysical realms of Love that True Logic can be found – I am, because You ARE!”


  44. on July 29, 2007 at 9:00 am I think is worth a reading...

    Former student

    I think I know what you mean….I just said ” it is worth a reading”…also Lao Tsu said the the real Tao is that one can not be spoken of and then he wrote 98 verses….It is quite ironic no!!

    xxx


  45. on July 29, 2007 at 9:02 am I'll never tell!

    16#81 The Letter in Question
    on 23 Jul 2007 at 8:50 pm

    Mentions U.S. Internal Revenue Service (IRS),
    U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS),
    U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS),
    U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE),
    U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI),
    California Governor’s Office,
    California Attorney General’s Office.
    It is the duty of the Attorney General to see that the laws of the state are uniformly and adequately enforced (California Constitution, Article V, Section 13.) The Attorney General carries out responsibilities of the office through the California Department of Justice.
    ******
    CA AG WhistleBlower Hotline:
    (800) 952-5225 or (916) 322-3360
    ******
    [Current CA Attorney General is Edmund G. (Jerry) Brown Jr.
    He is the son of a former CA State Governor, a former CA State Governor, a former CA Secretary of State, former Mayor of Oakland, but somewhat more importantly: ‘completed his freshman year at the University of Santa Clara before entering Sacred Heart Novitiate, a Jesuit seminary in August 1956. Two years later, he took vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. In 1960, he left the Society of Jesus and enrolled at the University of California at Berkeley. He received his B.A. degree in Classics the next year and then entered Yale Law School, where he graduated in 1964.’ So, he knows a bit about religious life as well as law. Additionally: ‘spent six months in Japan studying Japanese culture and Buddhist practice, worked with Mother Teresa in India at the Home for the Dying.’ Check out his bio for more detail:
    http://ag.ca.gov/ag/brown.php ]

    But the posting missed one rather important entity:
    California Secretary of State
    (Debra Bowen) who,
    among other things, is responsible thus:

    *Grants the authority to do business in California…

    *Administers the Victims of Corporate Fraud Compensation Fund (VCFCF) from which court-ordered restitution is provided.

    *Confidential address program helps protect the identities of survivors of domestic violence, sexual assault…

    The Secretary of State serves as the custodian of records for corporate records filed with this office.
    The Business Entities Section is responsible for:

    * examining, processing, filing and maintaining documents relating to the formation of California (domestic) corporations, the qualification of foreign (out of state or country) corporations to transact business in California, and any amendments to the records of the domestic or qualified foreign corporations;

    * responding to inquiries relating to status or other information concerning corporations of record;

    * providing certificates (of status or filing) and copies of corporate documents upon request; and…

    General provisions governing most corporations are found in the California Corporations Code:
    See:

    http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/calawquery?codesection=corp&codebody=&hits=All

    See: 9110 (domestic nonprofit religious corporations)
    PART 4. NONPROFIT RELIGIOUS CORPORATIONS

    In the aim to put an end to the Robert Earl Burton brand of SPIRITUAL TERRORISM, called the Fellowship of Friends, Inc., a California nonprofit religious corporation, you can attempt to remove the foundational corner stone by getting its corporate status revoked as being fraudulent. Then the whole house of cards collapses under its own weight. [Try and find the jokers then.]

    Robot Earl Burden


  46. on July 29, 2007 at 11:23 am Critical Mass

    Hi Another Name (post 41 at the moment),#

    Please don’t react negatively to my message either. (I can play that game too.) Yes, there’s more to individuals who are diagnosed “schizophrenic” than just the medical diagnosis, and I have spent time with schizophrenics. There are techniques that can help people to not be put out of balance by their perceptions, and that can help them to distinguish helpful voices from destructive voices. And, yes, I have spent time with schizophrenic individuals. But the medical diagnosis and treatment is useful and even essential because the schizophrenic experience is usually very destructive to the person’s ordinary life. Brian Sisler killed himself, remember. He lived in squalor in a hut. When I tried to use his bathroom once, it was filthy and I had to leave after a few seconds because I was about to vomit.

    The FOF has no idea how to deal with students who are mentally ill. The only recommendation is “keep taking the pills” which isn’t bad advice, but is somewhat limited, especially as most mentally ill people stop taking their medication from time to time. If a student has a psychotic episode, the FOF treatment is a leave of absence, i.e. temporary expulsion, come back when you’re better. If the student is in Isis, he or she is either sent home, or sent to Eth_n to get more pills. Once the student is put on leave, Ph_l_p L_c_s says, “Yep, the guy’s crazy alright” and everyone involved with security or legality becomes very concerned about not letting the poor guy onto the property in case he wants to visit Robert. There are at least a couple of breakdowns each year at Isis, and additional ones in the centers. Worst of all, Robert has had sex and continues to have sex with men who have mental illness problems—vulnerable men with bipolar disorders, schitzophrenia, or histories of depression. The FOF culture which encourages conscious spiritual ambition, reading of shocks, work against feminine dominance, can easily be used to justify objectification of psychotic states. Br_an T_mn_y was a good example of this.


  47. Leaving the Asylum

    The metal harps of the high gates
    make a clangorous music
    closing behind me. They
    announce the “new life” of freedom
    and only a battered valise
    to lug down this alley of poplars.
    I repeat the litany of the poem
    that released me. Hollow tree
    though I am, these things I cherish:
    the hum of my blood, busily safe
    in its hive of being; the delicate
    oily kiss my fingertips give
    each thing they touch; and desire,
    a huge fish I drag with me
    through the wilderness:
    I love its glint among the dust and stones.

    Gregory Orr


  48. Thanks Critical Mass for 46.

    About a year ago some of us, while still in the FoF, were at an Adyashanti meeting when a lady stood up to ask a question and gradually became more and more hysterical until I personally began to feel intense fear and to worry that an ambulance would have to be called. She was undergoing psychological meltdown right before our eyes.

    Adyashanti slowly and calmly talked her down, so that ten minutes later she was quiet, peaceful and grateful. It was a virtuoso performance.

    I’m not advocating Adyashanti as “the be all and end all”. just contrasting his abilities as a “teacher” and human being with those of Robert Burton. If something like this started to happen at a Galleria meeting the person would be immediately hustled out. We were very impressed by the way Adyashanti handled this. Also anyone there could ask any question they liked and he was able to answer them all in an illuminating way – so open and creative compared with the sterility of FoF meetings.

    RN


  49. On the question of madness and/or squizofrenia.

    Working with Dorothy it became obvious that the more she was kept inside her room, the more she lost contact with those around her and herself. Even just being able to move from room to room, helped her to focus.

    The most healing I ever observed in her was during the time that I took her food shopping, ice cream eating and even to lunch in restaurants. She pulled herself together and behaved like a perfect english lady then held that state for about three days.

    The speech therapy Agnes L. did with her also helped her immensely.

    What I would be interested in exploring together is the particular psychosis that is being developed in the fellowship conditioned by the form.

    I was much surprised reading about Philip L’s. activity with the crazy ones as a security manager because in recent times Philip is one of the stars at Isis, travelling to centers with his great angles and a smile from ear to ear. A smile like Abraham’s, Ellen P’s. , and Thomas’.

    I have nothing against their feeling happy and would even acknowledge that they’ve managed to transform or give enough of a blind eye to the world around them to be living an altered state but it doesn’t stop surprising me that it should be so relevant in Philip L. and Abraham because as long fellowship members and in considerably significant roles, it is as if they had to prove to themselves and others that they have gained something that can justify all that they’ve done against other students because there was something to gain from following Robert and they themselves are proof of it.

    But I wonder to what extent this is true about them at all times or do they turn into something quite different in private, or with their wives, children or intimate connections because it would not surprise me at all if they too have developed two distinct personalities, one that controls people for Robert’s status quo and another one who “awakens” and justifies the other’s abuse.

    They both have a “beautiful” act, at least in public. Few students were as warm as Abraham with me, with the exception of the time I questioned Robert and Philip was giving brilliant angles before I left.

    In Helen’s case I would say she had a particular talent for madness of her own (I should be able to recognize this things!) and the consistent discrepancies have slowly shut up the pain and put her in an ever smiling condition, a permanent buffering condition.

    Paradoxically, Girard’s act in events is pretty well leveled. In spontaneous interchanges with students he does not keep eye contact, he has great difficulty acknowledging anyone, unless it is a young woman or old contact and never has time for any one so he’ll keep looking at his watch consistently to let you know that you’re taking too much of his time. He has not developed this “ecstatic” act…….yet, although he hints that he has awaken a part of himself while the lower self remains the same.

    What I am trying to work on and understand is the different aspects of our lives that run so wildly against each other without balance, keeping in mind the individual, the family and the community as a map-structure to guide ourselves.

    I personally think we are all terribly unbalanced, all have huge areas to work on and all need enormous help. I also think each one of us has something wonderful and unique to offer, including Robert. Not that I would stop his going to jail.

    “Mad”, is the position of any one that does not fit the status quo of a particular community and there are plenty of those everywhere. From the individual’s position though, one’s own madness becomes extreme when one’s impulse is thwarted so extremely by the community that one belongs to, that one indeed believes and develops one’s madness. The depression, the lack of contact, take control, and one’s acts consistently confirm the madness.

    A community can heal or worsen the level of madness of any individual.

    Is this not the case of the Fellowship of Friends? I have no doubt Robert has a great deal of lunatic but the community, instead of controlling and channelling him, adapted to each one of his whims, bent and accepted the deal at its own cost and then each individual had to adapt his own particular madness to his.

    I think it was a dual game and am far from believing it was conscious or intentional, it happened to all of them. Robert adapted to his follower’s and his followers to his, all the time singing to each other that they were remembering themselves.

    Amongst the men, the macho stereotype became stronger, so strong that infrasex has become common ground and amongst the women, the second hand female role, became stronger, developing perfect unmarried executives and hard working housewives without a saying on what is going on.

    The adults lost position as people to address with more experience because it is being given to the young and inexperienced who can handle the deal with a lot less concern backed up by Robert against no matter what adult and they all work indiscriminately to support the sex making machine that Robert’s madness demands.

    The “beautiful” act in public is very interesting because we are all forced to have at least a fairly decent act in public, in community. This feminine dominance that pushes individuals to act normally at least in public is in itself a very significant force and it was used by Robert in the fellowship upside down and backwards to make students accept all his behavior although there was absolutely nothing lawful about it in terms of living in a community that students were paying for….. to not belong to.

    There’s about as much madness in each student in the fellowship as any mental institution could hope for.


  50. Random responses to different stimuli :

    When I was on the road a person who heard “voices” invited me to live with him. His sister was in charge of his life. Paying the bills, washing his clothes and keeping doctor’s appointments.

    I finally moved out but kept in touch. One winter I ran into him and asked where he was going. He told me to the drug store for medicine and that he had set his apartment on fire. He did.

    I was worried about his 90 plus year old landlady who lived downstairs in the two story wooden framed building. We caught it before it spread. The oak floors were turned into charcoal. He had lit a gas heater that was partially stopped up. When it did light it scared him. So, he threw a throw rug on it and walked away.

    Other than that he was fun to be around. I almost made it to his death bed but that’s another story.

    About Christianity: Somebody said that Christianity would be something good if it were ever put into practice. Isnt that a ditto for the Gurdjieff/Ouspensky “system” of teaching esoteric Christianity? I believe Nicoll said Lao Tsu was the 4th Way. And, I believe Rodney Collin said the 4th Way was the most complete truth. Because everything could be found in it.

    It is my understanding that when “fires” start in California forest Rangers start what’s called I believe “back” fires. To fight fire with fire? I think somebody has stared a fire, but who?


  51. Sorry, that should read, “I think somebody has STARTED a fire, but who?


  52. on July 29, 2007 at 6:13 pm Search Results

    Dear Friends,

    Some news… The blog has reached the first page when doing a Google search for “Fellowship of Friends.”

    Although many have expressed concern about the wikipedia article being a source of propaganda for the Fellowship and Robert Burton, websites with negative information about the Fellowship continue to dominate all Google searches — whether it’s “Fellowship of Friends”, “Robert Burton”, or “Robert Earl Burton.”

    Warm regards,
    Search Results


  53. From 1(6) 558 Life person (great post, by the way)

    After months of periodically reading and contributing to the blog, what most amazes me is the enormity of the disconnect between what is observed and what some people choose to believe.

    This reminded me of a passage by U. Eco in “Baudolino”:

    “Master Niketas, the problem of my life is that I’ve always confused what I saw with what I wanted to see.”
    “That happens to many people”
    “Yes, but with me, whenever I said I saw this, or I found this letter that says thus or so (and maybe I’d written it myself), other people seem to have been waiting for that very thing. You know, Master Niketas, when you say something you have imagined, and others then say that’s exactly how it is, you end up believing it yourself…”


  54. I tried to get into the mood of offering more DIRECT Rushkin, but since I suffer from a ‘mood disorder’, I cannot get in the ‘mood’. I offer from the manic – depressive Irishman, Spike Milligan who made his living out of high-performances “I know I’m f***ing mad. It’s just that they tried to make me ashamed of it”. Robert actually said to an aspirant who asked “Would I awaken this lifetime?” : “No you are not crazy enough” (RB). Apply your declarations to yourself, Burton, or is there just a blank across the VDU, or do you go ‘snake-eyes’ with greed. Retrack to a former sending………………………………………Nigel.

    Talk to you tomorrow (GMT).n.


  55. #51 Elena wrote:

    “The adults lost position as people to address with more experience because it is being given to the young and inexperienced who can handle the deal with a lot less concern backed up by Robert against no matter what adult…”

    Thank you for this perception, Elena. It is very true. I confess I’ve been there: young idiot, then adult, now simply ex-adult.

    As an “adult” I used to rationalize the friction this caused me by remembering the parable about the last being first and the first being last. I tried to consider it work on my own vanity to accept the way very young, seemingly immature and frequently downright arrogant young people were being given so much power over our lives. It did not occur to me that it was all a setup.

    Looking further back into the past, Robert gradually immasculated most of his wisest older students and effectively replaced them with “the keys”. Experience, unique personal understanding, what we called “being”, counts for very little today in the form and decision-making process of the FOF. Miles, Joel, Stella, Rosemary, Walter, Kristina…to name just a few, each had their shortcomings, magnified by the power bestowed on them as center director, octave leader, etc., but they also had a real voice, and served to balance and neutralize RB’s excesses if only by offering a counterpoint. Linda, Girard and others abdicated this important role, and have become enablers, permitters through silence. Little by little Robert has marginalized anyone who might potentially challenge him, distract his minions from devotion to his personality cult, or threaten his infrasex cabal.

    Power in the FOF today mostly resides with the “dogs”: wagging their tails, baring their teeth (is it a smile or a snarl), licking YOUR plate in the Galleria kitchen as they bark together about how instinctive you were not to leave more, sniffing around the backside and humping whenever the opportunity arises. There are many breeds but a dog is a dog, whether Doberman or Poodle or King Charles Cavalier. Dogs run in packs, and they always know who the Big Dog is. The lead humper. The one who doesn’t even bother to growl anymore because no one else dares to tangle with him.

    Of course, RB is also happy to use fools, but he does not expect as much from them. Fools are capable of learning from their folly and tend to run away after a while. Dogs are bred to follow. They work their way up through the pack, they sniff the ground a lot, they ponder over excrement, they guard their turf.

    Funny that the apex of FOF evolution was after all simply to be a fool.

    Joseph G


  56. Not to overlook the mundane behind many behaviours.

    Philip .L. only became ‘very active,travelling to centres and smiling’ after he seperated from his wife and was fancy free once more. I’ve seen him spluttering out work angles ten to the dozen onto a couple of young, attractive, former communist country refugees who hang around Isis.

    Belated reply to N-ck Sp-ld-ngs offer to ‘Chill out with Simple truth and Fat boy over a beer at apollo’doro’
    Thanks for the invite but I’ll decline. I’ll be watching though…..


  57. on July 29, 2007 at 9:04 pm Purchasing awakening

    I just read the Wikipedia article on FOF. It is so obvious that writers are trying very hard to make FOF look like religion. I guess now it is more useful for FOF to pose as a religion to keep it’s 501(c)(3) California non-profit church organization status.
    Pathetic liars!!! It has NEVER EVER BEEN A RELIGION!

    What happened to the whole “4th way school” that we all joined? Back then it was sold to us as a Conscious School quite opposite to a religion. What happened to the idea of not believing anything but verifying all for oneself?
    Now it’s all of a sudden a church, a religion with belief system.
    Please take a look for yourself. It’s simply disgusting.

    “The Fellowship of Friends is a non-profit religious organization”
    “…the aim of making its religious teachings and practices available in all parts of the world…”
    “The Fellowship of Friends believes that God has many names”
    “..the core of the Fellowship of Friends’ religious practice”
    “It is the belief of the Fellowship of Friends…”
    “The “Higher Self” is believed to be the real Self.” Etc, etc.

    The word ‘believe’ is used prolifically through the whole article as of someone desperately tries to drive his point home: We are a religion! We are a church! We believe!
    The article is packed with lies and distortions.

    I am simply wondering: why so much lies and cover up is needed for something supposedly so true and great? What is there to hide?
    Dear current members how do you feel about all this wiggling, changing and twisting facts by a conscious school and it’s leader? How do you justify to yourself the lying that’s constantly going on and this changing colors like a chameleon?

    HOW DOES IT FEEL TO YOU TO BE A PART OF A LIE???


  58. #56 Joseph G.

    The great Frank Zappa wrote:

    “The Meek shall inherit nothing.”

    The line is from a song about evangelical churches and ministers.


  59. Purchase Awakening (58)

    Of course the Fellowship and its devotees never had any compunction about lying and deceit, especially if it was to mere ‘life people’. The basic principle seemed to be something like “Our aim requires so and so, and we will do whatever it takes to get it. If ‘life people’ are harmed or deceived in the process, well, that’s just too bad, but it doesn’t matter because, after all, they’re just life people, etc.”
    I’m sure this same principle is used to justify the deception of the various government authorities who might try to investigate the Fellowship’s non-profit status, etc.

    I even know of instances in which students stole from or took advantage of fellow students, probably because they were so financially desperate due to the onerous teaching payments.

    I also remember a lot of deception was used by the telemarketing salesmen who were hawking Renaissance wine (usually to gullible old people).

    During the run up to 1998 and ‘the Fall of California’, all kinds of dishonest scheming and maneuvering was going on in an attempt to cash in on the big disaster. All kinds of expensive items were borrowed or bought on credit right before it was supposed to happen, with the expectation that when it did, all that stuff would belong to the Fellowship. After all, those poor ‘life’ bastards would be out there under ocean somewhere, right? Weren’t we just so fucking smug about it too? Of course, it all back fired when the prediction didn’t come true and all of it had to be returned.

    On that same subject, I remember some students getting all excited about how they would need to arm themselves against the desperate local population who would not be prepared for the disaster. You know, “We might have to kill some of those life scumbags if they come around here trying to interfere with us building our Ark!”

    Robert seemed to always like to whip up that “Us against Life” hysteria. And a lot of the students really ate it up.


  60. Hello Elena ~

    You wrote ~

    “But I wonder to what extent this is true about them at all times or do they turn into something quite different in private, or with their wives, children or intimate connections because it would not surprise me at all if they too have developed two distinct personalities, one that controls people for Robert’s status quo and another one who “awakens” and justifies the other’s abuse.

    They both have a “beautiful” act, at least in public. Few students were as warm as Abraham with me, with the exception of the time I questioned Robert and Philip was giving brilliant angles before I left.”

    ____________________________

    Actually, they’ve developed three distinct personalities;

    1) Confused, very touchy, irritable around the idea of total self responsibility without external target to blame or imitate; don’t like the idea of transforming the inner child from ‘pet’ to ‘person’.

    2) Sure, ready to talk oneself out and into new possibilities; career persona, the ‘I am sure I am confused’ one within, the ‘I can’t remember myself enough’ voice who does not like to talk about loosing True Personality as a recipe book and sunglasses.

    3) Present, (true personality thought form-body-I); the worker bee, the expectation, the ‘I am going to get this by doing that’ struggler-I, the ‘I am because of that having been my effort’, ‘I did that therefore I am today for yesterday was.’ Or ‘I need to go there’ to know I exist by hearing my footsteps proceeding oneanother. The, ‘I am a student therefore I am destined to graduate’ (by default).

    ___________

    The insanity arrives, (at least the sort I experience) when there is no form to hold one’s presence, no reference, no target, no conflict-partner or ‘Us & Them’ ritualistic dances;

    yet this is intentional insanity, the sort that we can ‘do’ with, it’s not the sort that must be loved and handled with great care, this too is within us, like a seed, to me it’s our outer fringes, the edges of our being, unfinished, ever reaching due to our love of curiosity and becoming.

    So much talk for the Fellowship of Friends; beautiful nests and no time to sit on the eggs.

    Yes, it’s the ‘truth’, “two distinct personalities” so far as the thought forms ‘students’ have identified their presence ‘into’ and ‘out of’…

    The beauty is that we are being born, that the insanity is our normal material to work with, it is the mittens our love wears as we stand to un-thaw oceans of frozen possibilities and applications of our conscious individuality; even if it’s simply to lay down and stare into a dandelion’s yet to be un-spun orb of seeds… (and I don’t mean the cat and mouse staring BTW)…

    Beautiful post… Thank you.

    ___________

    l.t.y.a.


  61. Hello Fat Boy ~

    ~ A NOTICE FOR YOU ~

    Not sure how it is that the post didn’t make it on the sheik’s mediated list back in PART 16…

    Post #402/16 may or may not have made it to your desk.

    Take care
    ________

    :)


  62. Frank Zappa he is the famous somebody I could’nt remember who told his 14 year daughter (moon?) that if anybody came toward her carrying a bible to turn and run like hell.

    Now if somebody would name the rock band who had the line, “show me what love is”.

    To the little girls at I’s I’s: If somebody comes toward you at “church” carrying a bible and saying, “let me show you what love is”. Start screaming!!.


  63. 63 arthur

    Do you mean the Randy Newman song:

    You Can Leave Your Hat On?

    Baby take off your coat
    Real slow
    Take off your shoes
    I’ll take off your shoes
    Baby take off your dress
    Yes, yes, yes

    You can leave your hat on
    You can leave your hat on
    You can leave your hat on

    Go over there, turn on the light
    Hey, all the lights
    Come over here, stand on that chair
    Yeah, that’s right
    Raise your arms up in the air
    Now shake ’em
    You give me reason to live
    You give me reason to live
    You give me reason to live
    You give me reason to live

    Sweet darling, (you can leave your hat on)
    You can leave your hat on
    Baby, (you can leave your hat on)
    You can leave your hat on
    (You can leave your hat on)

    (You can leave your hat on)

    Suspicious minds are talkin’
    They’re tryin’ to tear us apart
    They don’t believe in this love of mine
    They don’t know what love is

    They don’t know what love is
    They don’t know what love is
    They don’t know what love is
    Yeah, I know what love is

    There ain’t no way
    (You can leave your hat on)
    You can leave your hat on
    (You can leave your hat on)
    Give me the reason to live
    (You can leave your hat on)
    You can leave your hat on


  64. on July 30, 2007 at 2:50 am Laughing Love

    Hello All.

    Mental illness. There are such fine lines drawn. Some can cope with depression without medication, while some seem to need it.

    Schizophrenia is, of course, a very serious mental illness.
    Still, it’s tough to measure “mental illness” or insanity. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), attempts to do so. (It’s available online. See the section on pathological narcissistic mental disorder.)

    I would not accuse any of extreme mental illness for joining the fellowship, but I think the lines are very fine.

    I definitely consider myself to have been somewhat “mentally ill” for having chosen to join the fellowship.

    The placid smiles are so unnerving and manipulative, false and look “medicated”. I saw that face and probably looked that way. (Admittedly, I tend to be a big laugher and had a hard time maintaining my compliant fellowship poker face.)

    The delusion of grandeur involved in truly believing that I was “chosen” above billions is awesome and indicates that I was “mentally ill” during that time.

    Life Person (6-558) said:
    “After months of periodically reading and contributing to the blog, what amazes me is the enormity of the disconnect between what is observed and what some people choose to
    believe.”

    Isn’t that a form of madness?

    As I said before, I clearly assign a certain lunacy to my own participation and willingness to join a cult.

    I clearly remember having a clear disconnect between my intuitive feelings about what I observed in the Fellowship and my beliefs. That was constant and was encouraged.

    Most obviously, that was a clear feeling when I was informed of Robert’s sex stuff and was basically told that I was a moralistic prude if I though it was wrong because he was way above me.

    That was only the most obvious layer. There were deep levels at which I just didn’t believe my perceptions as an intelligent, sensitive human being and, in lieu, chose to, insanely, believe in a big time fraud.

    In other words, I disconnected from my deepest intelligence and, in essence, my true self, which is not only the antithesis of achieving presence, it is also extremely unhealthy. I think it qualifies as mental illness.

    Perhaps the most obvious manifestation of insanity is turning away from family. I am extremely close to my mother and with good reason. She is a very wise human being who has nurtured me forever. The memory of hiding that life from her is ridiculous and, from this vantage point, I was out of my mind.

    LL


  65. Dear LL (pronouned in Wales with a th-and-l together uttered – almost as difficult as learning Polish – the other scramble-code language used during WWII to confuse enemy tactics),

    I empathise with your writing above. Essence (the reality of your being) feels really strong from you. Gurdjieff remarked that ‘all work in the Great Work – no form will hold – begins with Essence – sound a do- and work up to I AM-and-can-Do – “I can always speak to someone who can do something well” (GIG). My mother taught me all the noble virtues which I now carry as the Olympic Torch of my personal work (of course, I rebelled – the School of FOF was the big one – “Don’t be sidetracked” she said when I told her I had come across it. Trouble is I had to be flushed through the camp of the enemy OPPOSER – “I opened doors, they walked straight through them; called me their friend, I hardly knew them” – CHESS (Rice, Ulvaeus, Andersson).

    Awakening comes in waves “You are many times dying and being born” Ramirez/Connery in ‘Highlander’ until you reach Nirvana (didn’t they do Lithium – the staple drug that combined with Clopixyl – a muscle relaxant – caused my alimentary (Watson) system so many problems – “Now the drugs don’t work, they just make you worse”). My personal permanent Awakened State of Eternal Vigilance was on

    25 – 07 – 2007

    If you want proof of this do not argue or ‘quibble’ by this site but meet me in person – see how I operate (“You need a system to awake – it need not be this system – but you need a system” – Ouspensky)……..

    “Come close, that no more blinded by man’s fate,
    I find under the boughs of Love and Hate,
    In all poor foolish things that last a day,
    Eternal beauty wandering on her way”

    I am easy to be found by True Seekers (the Irish have ‘cracked’/craiched the Highway Code – I can teach you by pavement tactics)

    Trust me, I know what I’m doing….Nigey Beefyburger.


  66. on July 30, 2007 at 5:58 am Skeptical Optimist

    16/558 Life Person

    Spot on, and pretty funny to boot. Thanks.

    16/520 Anna

    Thank you for an astonishingly good piece of writing. You have given us a gift. Your writing has a light, refreshing and authentic tone that is quite attractive. You have described your experiences in a distinct voice that resonates with hard-won perspective and honesty. It is certainly in my opinion one of the very best pieces on the entire blog.

    I have had experiences similar to the one you had with TH. Years ago, when teaching a course called “Introduction to Gurdjieff’s Fourth Way” at the New York Open Center, and trying to bring practical exercises that would illustrate the topics, as well as putting a lot of emotional energy into my presentation (it was a 7 week course, as I recall), a young woman “broke” with our consensus reality into a different state. Of course, even as a “big mucky-muck” in the FoF, I had no idea what was going on, no idea of how to help the poor woman, no way to answer the questions from her anxious family, and not enough sense to quit doing what I was so proud to be doing.

    There are numerous stories of people “waking up” quite without any cause at all, just out of the blue. Even for the people who manage to survive, there’s usually a period of about 3 years during which they are learning to integrate the higher consciousness with their ordinary, functional awareness.

    Leaving the FoF is also a major undertaking for some people, and the layers of influence go deep, sometimes taking years (in my case) to reveal themselves, to be seen for the relics they are. The process is ongoing, but the opportunity to heal through the interactions on the blog seems to really root out a lot of the old stuff, or to stir it up so it’s visible and can be understood in a new way, from a more benign, forgiving and wiser perspective. But it does take time.

    Thanks again for the time and energy you put into your story. I agree that it should be circulated as widely as possible (along with Life Person’s!) to current inmates.

    JoelF


  67. Unoanimo.
    Well done! You surfed the moon and struck a huge RIL. Do. Thanks for the effort. Cy.


  68. on July 30, 2007 at 10:36 am Bass Ackwards

    A Former Student [#25 & 26] and [#34]
    Rhino Neal #[32]

    Thanks for the input. Believe it or not, we are on the same track. I do understand the difference between the Fourth Way (as we have received it under RB’s tutelage) and Advaita. Advaita is like turning one’s understanding around 180 degrees (from being Bass Ackwards), with a huge and deep purge of formatory mind. It is exhilarating. It is the Truth. Strangely enough, after reading Nisargadatta, it is possible to read Rumi, Walt Whitman, Meher Baba, etc.. and finally realize that they are all saying the same thing, speaking of experiences/understandings from an awakened (Universal) Self. It seems as though that is what G and O meant too, but our interpretation has simply been less than perfect.

    My take on it – and suggestion – is to gently offer that kind of understanding and perspective to current students. The blog raises most current student’s radar, but Rumi, Whitman, Meher Baba with a little seasoning from N. do not. From there, it doesn’t take much for anyone who is exhilarated by such revelatory understanding to realize that RB is not really speaking from that place. He covers himself with quotes, but it is hard to find him speaking from his own understanding. And when he does, the understanding he offers to us is so deeply entrenched in a fundamentalist duality, that only a crystallized devotee can miss seeing the shining, loving, higher truth beginning to emerge.

    Most posters on this blog are interested in getting the truth out there about Robert Burton. Please don’t misunderstand me, I support this effort wholeheartedly, I’m just working underground from the other side of the fence. There is the triad of Destruction/Elimination and that of Healing – most of what the posts here are about. But there is also Regeneration. What our School is supposed to be engendering? So, from my experience and perspective, the “inner circle” students I know won’t budge because they have their verifications of Higher Centers. How to free up someone like that? Deepen their understanding.

    ***********************************************
    Yesterday’s meeting:
    A small to mid sized center, away from Isis. Some students have read some of Nisargadatta, some not. One director to whom we had introduced N. to a few weeks previously, asked my friend to lead a “free” meeting. My friend selected about 7 – 8 quotes just to get us started, from Rumi,Whitman, Meher Baba and Nisargadatta. The quotes centered around the experience/understanding of a non-dual Self. Quotes were read, but conversation, questions were encouraged. My friend who had been studying these ideas for almost one year, was able to offer deep understanding. It was a very emotional meeting. By the end, many of us had tears in our eyes.

    After the meeting we were able to share the books we have from Nisargadatta, not only “I Am That”, but the three books edited by Jeanne Dunn of his dialogues at the end of his life, as he continued teaching seemingly unabated despite throat cancer. Priceless. Much later in the afternoon, we had a more intimate conversation with one director. We were able to point out to her in clear, simple and non-confrontational terms the difference between what real awakening could be and who or what Robert Burton is. The difference was pretty obvious.

    I invite other students all over the world to try similar efforts? One way or another the bubble will burst?
    Love,
    Bass


  69. Good Morning Cyclops ~

    What a “RIL” ?

    :.P


  70. hi uno.
    short form of Res ipsa loquitur. sounds like a real.
    A huge Res Ipsa Loquitor. Do.
    lty Cy.


  71. Bruce #64 Nope! I must change radio stations. It’s one of my favorite “inspirational songs”. Forgive me. I dont own a TV and I just discovered CD’s about a year ago. Never owned a record player, never bought a record, that I can remember. Oh, I did record on tapes “New Age or World Beat” music until they quit playing them on the local PBS radio station. They started gathering dust and out the many-many went. This computer can’t do You-Tube the sound is jerky and so is the video. Some of the other computer error is me—-self taught.
    OOPS– I took “Music Appreciation” and had to buy an album.

    Laughing Love #65: “Turning away from family” was like a bullet wizzing past my head.

    Mr. GoldFinger: Now I want a $1,000 cash, a 1944 Lincoln convertible, a black thoroughbred race horse and a fine Panama hat.


  72. on July 30, 2007 at 4:32 pm Critical Mass

    Not only are there “Robert’s boys” but also “Robert’s girls”. This is a term used by the FOF HR department for wives and girlfriends of Robert’s boys. A number of these wives and girlfriends are on salary specifically to look after their children so that their husbands and partners do not have to be involved in childminding, and thus are available for Robert at the drop of a hat. Robert tells these women that looking after their children is their third line of work.


  73. Dear Former Student,
    I am glad you wrote in #34 what offends you about non-dualists.
    Now I can see that we are arguing about the same thing – which is so common! Sometimes me and my boyfriend find ourselves in the middle of an argument, and then after a while one of us says: Wait. What’s you point? And suddenly we see that the point is exactly the same, but somehow we got into argument about it. Funny, right?
    So, no reason to be offended. There is no conflict, really.
    The idea is exactly NOT to look outside and not to follow anyone and only look within oneself. So we do agree here!
    It all can be found only internally, because it is there, un-noticed and overlooked. It’s all about “Know Thyself”. (Not “Create thyself” or “Work on thyself” or “Buy thyself in this school” – simply “Know thyself”.) It is exactly the point that absolutely nothing is lacking! It needs to be known, recognized, by looking within oneself.
    Nothing is lacking. It’s more that we’ve got some “extra” so to speak – our ego, or false personality – a mind structure that screws things up and distorts the beautiful natural picture. Non-dualism points straight right to the core of your being, and doesn’t promote more “efforts” and “working on ego”, since it’s exactly the ego that would be doing all the working under new fancy names: 4th way student, Steward, King of hearts, Higher Self, etc…
    So, in a way Advaita is really good, good news! It cuts right through the mind’s crap and games and brings you to yourself.

    I would add that it seem to be very helpful to many in and out FOF. People are deeply resonating with this simple message, especially after 20+ years of chasing their own tail, and many lives has been already changed profoundly because of that simple understanding.


  74. Unoanimo: My apologies, I didn’t leave it out of my moderation list on purpose.


  75. Re: 2b, 16/441

    A noteworthy approach to Acceptance! Yes, we tend to resist the need for change, and this need may be just the thing we should accept a lot earlier. If you can treat this topic in more detail, please do so.

    Perhaps we resist the need to change (in casu, the need to leave a group) because of the insistance in the Work, esp. in O’s books, of the immense value and rarity of school, of how easy we can loose it, of how we need the three lines, etc. (And this has of course been thickened with a triple layer of propaganda in the fof related to ‘only conscious school on earth’, who loses it is moon-food, and so on.) Not surprising that when we get an ‘I’ to leave the organization, we distrust it.

    Is there a way to tell when to trust this ‘I’ and when not to? (Considering we might also get involved with other groups in the future…) I think we can find an answer in O’s ‘In search of the miraculous’. He gives there two examples of leaving the school: one for the wrong reasons, and one for the right reasons. In chapter 13 there is the story of two people who left their group for the wrong reasons – out of Inner Considering:

    “Only two people dropped off who, exactly as though through some kind of magic as it seemed to us, suddenly ceased to understand anything and saw in everything that G. said misunderstanding on his part, and, on the part of the rest, a lack of, sympathy and feeling.

    This attitude, at first mistrustful and suspicious and then openly hostile to almost all of us, coming from nobody knew where and full of strange and quite unexpected accusations, astonished us very much.

    ‘We made everything a secret’; we failed to tell them what G. had spoken of in their absence. We told tales about them to G., trying to make him distrust them. We recounted to him all talks with them, leading him constantly into error by distorting all the facts and striving to present everything in a false light. We had given G. wrong impressions about them, making him see everything far from as it was.

    At the same time G. himself had “completely changed,” had become altogether different from what he used to be before, had become harsh, requiring, had lost all feeling and all interest for individual people, had ceased to demand the truth from people; that he preferred to have round him people such as were afraid to tell him the truth, who were hypocrites, who threw flowers at one another and at the same time spied on the others.

    We were amazed at all these and similar talks. They brought with them immediately a kind of entirely new atmosphere which up to this time we had not had. And it was particularly strange because precisely at this time most of us were in a very emotional state and were particularly well disposed towards these two protesting members of our group. …”

    In chapter 18 O. exposes the reasons for which he himself decided to part from G. These reasons had to do with the principles of Work (the principles explained in the beginning were no longer respected), with the change of the direction of the organization (from school to church), and with the change of specialty (from psychology, which suited O’s man nr. 3 make-up, to religion). By the way, O. also took a long time to accept his need for change – amicus G. sed magis amica veritas.

    “But my personal position in G.’s work began to change. For a whole year something had been accumulating and I gradually began to see that there were many things I could not understand and that I had to go.

    This may appear strange and unexpected after all I have written so far, but it had accumulated gradually. I wrote that I had for some time begun to separate G. and the ideas. I had no doubts about the ideas. On the contrary, the more I thought of them, the deeper I entered into them, the more I began to value them and realize their significance. But I began very strongly to doubt that it was possible for me, or even for the majority of our company, to continue to work under G.’s leadership.

    […] In regard to my relations with G. I saw clearly at that time that I had been mistaken about many things that I had ascribed to G. and that by staying with him now I should not be going in the same direction I went at the beginning. And I thought that all the members of our small group, with very few exceptions, were in the same or in a similar situation.

    This was a very strange “observation” but it was absolutely a right one. I had nothing to say against G.’s methods except that they did not suit me. A very clear example came to my mind then. I had never had a negative attitude towards the “way of the monk,” to religious, mystical ways. At the same time I could never have thought for one moment that such a way was possible for me or suitable. And so, if after three years of work I perceived that G. was leading us in fact towards the way of religion, of the monastery, and required the observance of all religious forms and ceremonies, there would be of course a motive for disagreeing with this and for going away, even though at the risk of losing direct leadership. And certainly this would not, at the same time, mean that I considered the religious way a wrong way in general. It may even be a more correct way than my way but it is not my way.

    The decision to leave G.’s work and leave him exacted from me a great inner struggle. I had built very much upon it and it was difficult for me now to reconstruct everything from the beginning. But there was nothing else to do. Of course, all that I had learned during those three years I retained. But a whole year passed by while I was going into all this and until I found it possible to continue to work in the same direction as G. but independently.”

    ——————

    Re: Arthur, 16/448

    :) :)

    :)

    ——————

    Re: WhaleRider, 16/505

    Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I have read it several times, and still busy digesting it… The experiences I had in mind when I asked the question are rather different from what you describe. Nevertheless, all that you said in connection to aim (and at 17/33 in relation to the 3 lines of work) made complete sense to me.

    ——————

    Re: page 17, non-dualism

    “You must remember that the Work teaches that Man was once in touch with Higher Centres but went to sleep. He once knew what to do directly but now, in this state of sleep, he can only get to where he was by indirect methods. All that is left now is change of mind. Change of mind starts the whole possible recovery. … The Work can teach a man to think in a new way.” (Nicoll, pp. 822, 962, 1014)

    [ http://www.google.nl/books?id=1adQzHV_6mUC&pg=PA822&ots=lFikc6BItX&dq=outside+inauthor:maurice+inauthor:nicoll&sig=FMDSkNrNa_Rdgof4WYdwK9Pmlks#PPA1014,M1 ]

    ——————-

    Re: page 17, permanent higher states

    “We have moments in which things go right and moments in which things go wrong. The Pendulum of our psychology, of our emotions, of our general feelings, swings to and fro. But when the Pendulum swings back this should be surely a phase in which things are put in order, in which one consults oneself, in which one gets things arranged rightly and made ready before one goes forward again. You cannot expect always to be just the same. Yet how many people are disappointed when, having felt something, they find that for the time being they no longer feel it. Then of course they quarrel, feel bored and so on. In other words, the negative swing of the Pendulum for most people is simply a blank. But it should not be a blank. It should be a phase inhabited by consciousness and by a sense of the Work in which one collects oneself together again and reflects, and does not necessarily think that everything is over, at an end.” (Nicoll, p. 731)


  76. Res Ipsa Loquitor
    Thanks, uno!
    You are indeed food, spicy, tasty and elaborate, and also true like bread and wine.
    Respect!

    Janna 74
    Well said. Chasing one’s own tail is exactly what one is condemned to do in pseudo-schools like the FoF.

    I have a story in relation to the recent discussion of schizophrenia and altered states of consciousness. My Holotropic Breathwork facilitator is a middle-aged lady who in her thirties experienced a sudden and full-blown kundalini awakening (evoked by shamanic practices).

    I spare you the details, but basically she had been in a state that closely resembled a psychedelic trip for three months straight. After the energy subsided, she spend the next several years simply working on understanding what had happened and on rebuilding a functional relationship with herself and the world. She sold all her furniture and moved to a secluded house in the mountains, she went to Jungian therapy, she visited the famous American healer Barbara Brennan, she met Stanislav Grof who was able to frame her experience in a way that finally allowed her to make sense of it.

    I was fascinated by the power and truthfulness of her story and have since read quite a bit on the subject of kundalini energy and awakening. The internet has a lot of information, and probably the most valuable is first-hand accounts. I discovered that kundalini awakening happens in quite a few people, of all walks of life. I have had a little taste of it myself, not nearly as powerful or extended as the one referred above, but enough to make approach this energy with a devotion mixed with fear.

    One recurring question in my mind was this: how could I have been in a so-called spiritual school for ten years and never even heard of such states? We talked about conscious beings, but I had no idea that one could go through this, and that these were the symptoms, and these were the possible side-effects and so on.
    I was amazed at my own ignorance about the sometimes brutal nature of awakening. The FoF has no practical teaching on this subject, and no practical advise is needed because hardly anything is happening. And when something does happen (was that your story, Janna?) it is definitely not appreciated. And it became clear to me that all the signs we took to be “The Teacher’s Consciousness” were simply a well-rehearsed act.
    In fact Robert could have never lived through a real awakening and not desired to share it. It’s just too cool! He would have told us about the flashes of heat, the dissolving blockages, the tingling sensations…

    Awakening is as much of the body as of the spirit, and Robert would have definitely noticed if something went on in that area. No, the poor boy could not even imagine a power higher than the one that turned his head towards signs when required and gently whispered in his ear how great he was. What he sold us is imaginary awakening of the head, while the body goes wild unnoticed in the unlit caves of the king of clubs.
    Sick!

    Anyway, here we are, maybe finally making sense too.
    Love,

    Laura


  77. Hello Alice ~

    For me, when I read about O leaving G I try to remember the other 7 letters in between (H,I,J,K,L,M,N) or ‘High-Jekyll-men’ (as we all are dealing with from within)…

    Ouspensky, (I believe) had so many ‘right reasons’ to love Gurdjieff and G he, regardless of his ‘personality’: G gave him something that he could use without G’s reflection accompanying it in the mirror; O did the same for Rodney Collins…

    Maybe I am a bit of a romantic in regards to those two, yet, somehow, G’s beginning with O, for me, is the most important; i.e., that he loved Ouspensky and did not compromise his (O’s) deeper essence levels (sexual humiliation for instance) to self aggrandize himself for being able to do so…

    Robert Burton is possessed by a ruthlessly subjective ‘spirit’ (we all babysit them from time to time); it walks in and out of him unchecked, unabated, insatiable…

    There is no limit Robert Burton will not go to in order to convince himself that he is conscious and doing all this by the will of the gods… He has confused the dimension of magnetic bodies attached to the earth’s magnetic field with that of the conscious realm and it (in my opinion) has confused him too…

    Yes, O left G, yet, I believe when they parted they both understood that it was absolutely necessary and in their hearts supported it, the rift… Yes, there was drama and back-biting, yet, I sense their conscience stayed in tact concerning it’s ‘right action’…

    _______________________

    l.t.y.a.


  78. Bruce: I found the rock band. It’s Foreigner.

    I think Rodney Collin said that the split between Gurdjieff and Ouspensky was right action and that they became two magnetic poles with Me dancing on the wires.


  79. re Alice E. (76)

    It’s true the quoted passages from In Search illustrate O.’s perspective that there exist “right” and “wrong” reasons for “leaving a school,” and that there are many who might benefit from considering whether a “right” reason exists for themselves at this time.

    While starting your post by suggesting we have been unduly influenced by propaganda, however, you turn to one of the sources of the propaganda for assistance, and this, I submit, may not be helpful. I have valued In Search for decades, and it takes nothign away from what it offers to point out that representatives of the FoF power structure have used books such as In Search to justify whatever they want to justify, and members, past and present, have facilitated this by looking to such texts in very much the same way an evangelical might read into some passage in the Bible, or an adherent of any religion would find in one of the accepted revealed texts, whatever he wants to find.

    The description of the two departing members of G.’s group was merely one person’s (and not the departing members’) recounting, in one book published many, many years ago, of some aspects of the circumstances surrounding the departure of two people from groups that presumably involved hundreds of people over a period of decades. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of stories that could be told from hundreds of perspectives about why various people stopped working with G. or, for that matter, O. Similarly, we may want to take O.’s word for his reasons for leaving, and assume that O. had a “good” reason to leave, because he was O., but we might not want to go down the road of thinking in that way.

    If people want to deal with what to do about finding themselves in a questionable situation, they might want to stop thinking about their situation in the manner suggested by the FoF or the texts on which it supposedly was based, and start listening to themselves. After all, if we start thinking that “if O. left, so can I,” we become susceptible to the obvious next stay-in-the-Fellowship-until-you-die thought: I am not O, and I should not model my behavior on what someone of his exhalted level may have done. RB is one step ahead in having made himself the arbiter not only of who is, and is not, “conscious” (another makey-uppy term), but also of who has any possibility of becoming “conscious” in this lifetime. So all the angles–and exits–are covered if one is unable to trust oneself, even if it appears to contradict every “work book.”

    We invest a few sentences in a “work book” with an extraordinary, and unwarranted, degree of significance because we want so badly to have guidance from some presumed authority, and do not trust our own judgment. The whole concept of “losing a school” is based on a few passages from O.’s writings that have been repeated breathlessly down through the years, by Collin (an apparently well-intentioned man who also had a penchant for seeing everything through the lens of a few concepts he learned from O., and who eventually preferred the antithesis of critical thinking, Roman Catholicism); and Burton, as though they express an unassailable truth that there exist such things as “conscious schools” that one may “lose” and, as a result, suffer disastrous consequences.

    Although past and present FoF members may like to fancy themselves “intellectuals,” there is nothing intellectual (in the positive sense of the term) about this approach; it’s no different from any faith-based fundamentalism. The Catholic Church has taught for many centuries that it is the One True Church; I hear the current pope has placed more emphasis on this than has been fashionable for some time. This is no different from any religion; a learned Jew or Muslim can easily find textual support for anything, and people have killed each other by the thousands in the firm belief that their popes and their revealed texts are more trustworthy than anyone else’s.

    How is this different from believing the concept of a “conscious school” (let alone the “only conscious school”) that one may “lose” and therefore suffer the pains of hell or whatnot?

    There is one difference: We belong(ed) to the FoF, so we want to believe that it is different, because we want to believe we are different. One reason the FoF has persisted for so long is the inexhaustable desire to believe RB’s statements that members are special because, and only so long as, they are members.


  80. Dear 80 Life Person

    Don’t ramble. Why are there 2 (two) Jokers in a complete pack. Because Shiva sends dialogue to Arjuna (male to male indicator and receptor overcoming male-male confrontation) in the mind.

    O.K I have solved that twiddly-dee oh so popular ‘third states intermediary’ cr*p. Isn’t it nice to be in the moment altogether as a higher family. No more dreams to steal the (Blue) Thunder (good movie, recommended) of my objective states. You try working with the major-incovenience of manic-depression “Not that you could withstand the voice of GOD, far from it”

    Anyway as I was saying what’s white and falls from the sky?

    Answer – “The coming of the Lord” That will get me excommunicated from all formalist religions – I am not a number – I am a free man – I stand as 8, revolutionise as a 9 (Beatles Double White Album, I pay the debt I never promised, IO so off to work I go) 11, that is question now – answer it for your self in your own play, test my teaching; stay Eternally Vigilante (the awakened ONE in YOU all)

    Burton and all other nothingnesses (the devil is another great fallen angel, the Chamois that was lost and is now found – oh you can’t elope with an antelope – he is now the mighty Welsh flag assistant – all games-plays require an opposition and if if you want an answer to that stupid Chinese paradoxical tripe about what is the sound of one hand clapping I get practical with the Answer – actually it is the sound of your back cracking as you twist your spine out of place -my personal Osteopath is Pauline (feminine of little one – Paul of the letters was the most misogynistic bastard one could imagine – I am a manly man and I like womenly Women – Only the Celtic traditon holds the aspiration of Woman Warrior Chieftain witness Boadiccea (Fabrizio my Awakened bus driver who has the stage-numbers memorised said I was correct with spelling). Katherine Jenkins is “our soul charge” see the engaement episode of Henry V. “The voice of a Goddess with a real down to earth attitude” Earth Bound deity – AVATARESS.

    Be practical – expect a miracle! (Krishnamurti)

    And as a parting shot – dirty Nigey-Squint Eastward”

    Why can’t a Jew be a Morris Dancer.

    Answerer – ” It takes a total prick to be a Morris Dancer”

    I’ve shut down the system of phone communcation and gone AWOL/REMOTE (hue and cry – good album – recommended) from my ‘root of all evil’ life-family so that they can have a little chat with the psycho-twats about Making Plans for Nigel (XTC/ecstasy) – I kid ye not it is a music track. If you are all senses to receive stand by for

    LINGUA FRANCA SUBSTANTIA. God have I got BALLS – I’m so humble I could s**t! Eliminate the clutter from your lives!

    “Put your House In Order, that the King of Heaven my Enter Therein”

    Anyone want to mess with the ABSOLUTE?


  81. 81–Nigel
    I enjoy Life Person’s intelligent ramblings. Your posts are jumping all over the place.


  82. 80 Life Person

    Right. Same thing is annoying about Jews.
    And homosexuals, and black, and Republicans, and Democrats, and Christians, and Buddhists, and Muslims, and car mechanics, lawyers, nurses, old people and teenagers, Chinese, Germans, Russians, vegetarians, meat eaters, rich and poor, teachers, followers, idiots, Nobel laureates, critics, movie stars, natzis, communists, nobody-in-particulars and all the rest in between.

    They ALL think they are Fucking Special !

    I bet you do as well

    You can bet that I do

    As long as we put someone in a group of some sort, WE, and only WE, make them special.

    Personally, I do not feel ‘special’ just because I am in FOF.

    I don’t care for being special. I care for the truth.

    What you present is just a reason to be irritated with someone else, by thinking that they should not be any more special then ME.

    And please, don’t put me in the box with the label.
    You don’t know me, and you probably do not know most of the people in FOF. But once you put them in a “FOF’ box, you can blame them all for all possible sins ever committed on this Earth.

    Clever, but not true!


  83. Thank you Joseph and Unoanimo for the feedback.

    Hi Laura.
    I think one of the great difficulties that we are facing is the fact that there are two sides to every coin. We can see everything that is questionable about Robert and call it into account but we cannot take away his own inner work or will. It is true about Girard and probably many of the other strong students.

    It is why it was so difficult for so many of us to leave and for the many inside. From one angle, only in as much as students can extend their own conscience enough to embrace the totality of humanity, the totality of integrity, can one hold the horror of Robert’s acts in perspective.

    When all that they can encompass is Robert himself with the fellowship as his creation, it is easy to become fascinated with the accomplishments. Insignificant as they are when looked at from the outside.

    I have no doubt that Robert has had considerable high states as I have no doubt that I have had them. What I think is worth realizing is that although a large number of people may today have access to high states it does not necessarily mean that they are all that is required to become a leader of men, rather that we are all being able to access other states and it is how we bring the understanding of them down to the actual practice of our lives that matters.

    The “gift” of “higher states” will not in any way replace the need to eat, move, feel or think, it will simply colour our acts in the way we can paint them with our will.

    The fact or possibility that higher realms are pushing into this realm, for better or worse, as we have well verified with Robert, or even in the fact that no matter how much of those I’ve tasted, I can very well come down into deep and dangerous depressions if I don’t have enough will to watch out. To me, it is because, no matter how much they are willing to help us, they will never be able to do for us what we need to do for ourselves, just like any parent with a child.
    They might come down and tell us, “Hey, you’re all one, look after yourselves”, but we continue to treat each other as if we were perfect strangers!


  84. Earth to Nigel…earth to Nigel.. come in? If you can hear me – throw about a dozen sandbags into that balloon basket and let out some more hot air… can you hear me?

    Oh my god, I think he’s gone!

    No way, really?

    Yeah, maybe. You got any extra sandbags we could take up to him- if he heard us?

    Yeah, plenty. Hundreds of em.


  85. Elena (83)

    “[W]e cannot take away his own inner work or will.”

    Sure we can.

    First, since it’s his “inner” work, perhaps you might set aside the urge to imagine you have verified it.

    Second, consider the implications of attributing “inner work” and “will” to someone incapable of acting like a decent person–not a “conscious being,” not an “angel,” just a decent human being, who with some consistency treats others as he would like to be treated, for no reason other than it’s the way mature people act.


  86. If meatloaf could only fly, mom and pop’s diners would have to have reverse magnetic foundations, trading places from time to time with Homeland Security;

    In a conscious world, old folks homes would be burnt to the ground (exit old folks first); then extra pre-schools and day care centers built thereon; after of course Shaman’s re-blessed the putrid-negative-spirit-laden-saddened soil…

    These ‘old folks’ would be (not hard pressed) to share their pent up love and wisdom, and nerves of steel & will with these ‘on the opposite end’ brother and sisters, while the adults learned from both and kept (for the most part) their mouths shut.

    Nigel ~ I think you might be a long lost relative of mine; yet, aren’t we all?

    Elena, you’re nearly right about that help thing, yet, certainly on this blog, although we’re “perfect strangers”, we’re not necessarily treating each other as such; not much to loose when what is lost is you (that’s my take on it)… Rumi longed to go home, yet, perhaps he found later that inside that longing ‘was’ home.

    ____________________________

    l.t.y.a.


  87. Screw the sandbags, crank up the helium… burst the bubble and fly.

    :)


  88. 4 Critical Mass

    Didn’t know we had hired a reporter?!
    Did you get an increase in salary?
    Or is it a part of your 3d line?

    But seriously, do you not understand what the word church means?
    From Wiki: “A church is an association of people who share a particular belief system.”

    So, what all this fuss is about.

    Here is how the Gov. understands what the church should be like:
    “What constitutes a church under federal laws?”
    http://www.legalzoom.com/articles/article_content/article14814.html

    This the same issue that Sheik mentioned in 1(6) post 576 .
    “…I personally don’t think that the government is very well informed in these issues. Their decisions on what should be legal and what not do not always make much sense. The only way that you can verify this is if you experiment a little bit yourself.”

    And by the way, I am an expert on churches.
    The one I (Jesus) started, is a great example.
    It did some good, and some evil and a lot in between.
    But at least it is now recognized by the government. :-)
    LOL!

    The “training” you mention is not so necessary.
    God, Presence it is all the same if one had experienced it. Or, at least if a person can understand it logically.
    On the other hand, if you want a foreigner to understand you, you have to learn their language.
    But if you are a nationalist, you would say: “I do not want to learn any stupid language, have them learn our Great Language, if they want to understand Us!”

    During the Cultural Revolution in China, if you’d say you don’t believe in the Communist Party, you would be shoot the same day.

    But we are not in China, no, no, no.
    American Gov. is the most enlightened and democratic Gov. in the whole Universe. It would see the difference between The True Church of Jesus Chris and his 40 disciples and some self made Lairs like Buddha, Mohamed, Meher Baba and others!!!

    So, what is your point really!

    Same applies to:

    58 Purchasing awakening


  89. Greetings Mr. Ryan O’Poo,

    Thank you for your post. I appreciate the nudge. (I have certainly done my share.)

    “There are no particles of consciousness, just one whole which “you” already are…The individuality you promote is a dream within consciousness as are you.”

    Tell me:

    Does not the raindrop require a speck of dust first…to transmigrate from spirit to form?

    Is not every snowflake different, until they merge in the glorious sunlight?

    Can anyone truly contest that from the ocean we were conceived and to the ocean we will return?

    Isn’t the river both the cup of water I hold in my hand and all the water that ever flowed past its banks that I know I will never taste?

    More nudges from you,
    Dear Mr Ryan O’Poo!
    I’d appreciate it greatly,
    I most certainly do.

    You made my day!


  90. #88 Jésus:

    Dear Jésus,

    Are you friends with Juan? Did Juan start a church too?


  91. Allons-y, mes freres et mes ami(e)s, ecoutez vous de Les Miserables (the complete musical), par Cameron Mackintosh (Gordon Cameron and I were Chorleywood cowboys, ensembles):

    “And if you fall, like Lucifer fell, you fall in flames, for so it is wrtten and so it shall be, from the doors of Eternity, that those who fumble and those who fall, must pay the (PEARL OF GREAT) price, blatantly obvious is it not”

    “Let those who have ears to hear, let them hear!” big JC.

    And as to the remark by some argumentarian (cannot have time to scroll up to find out) about airship:

    “Try R101 – my engineering Wallace side, Clydeside ship and airship builders, responsible for the safety of those who were killed (we do ‘Apollo’-gise; but all will be MADE UP!”

    The book is “The Airman Who Would not Die” – a true-to-life story” – LIFE by its very nature is eternal – you cannot sell it to innocents.

    Also John Craig ( power-feature Queen of Hearts – grown silver grey way beyond his years would tell) will inform you that I travelled to work by car (before a manic drunk car-crash) on Route 101 (where the Very Best of The Eagles – another album I am trying to buy budget-wise) DARE – he who dares wins – Special Air Services motto – I have attained my glider 3 circuit basic glider solos and contolled (not solo) a Chipmunk RAF trainer. By the way, if it were not for RAF Tornadoes, there would have been even more, USA overkill-splattering-mayhem all round in the first Iraq phase.

    I would say when Burton is brought to trial, that we request castration and quarterising of the rectal orifice before locking him away for Eterntiy, giving him a DVD only-playable TV with his favourite film “Death in Venice”.

    Yours truly Don Eternito (don – he who gives – not takes”)

    Next sending more Rushkin forward-looking evangelistic visionary.

    Section 1: (72 hour holding of the Mental Health Act – 72 is Burton death number -“Field of Dreams” This Years – the Godfather – dinosaur car year tag.

    I know I was there when I watched it.

    Get the IDEA of being present yet?

    And if anyone gets the message through to Burton tell him he can do The Ultimate Sacrifice with my vine/crown handled blunt knife I gave him. WOW!


  92. on July 31, 2007 at 3:05 am Medicine Man

    Here is some more Healing for you:

    http://www.healingpainting.com/

    this 18 min video is very interesting:

    http://www.healingpainting.com/video/healingpaintingstory/healingpaintingstory.html

    “I am Sorry

    Please Forgive Me

    I Love You

    Thank You

    God Bless”

    And if you had missed my first post it is in 16-394
    or-
    https://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2007/07/22/the-fellowship-of-friends-discussion-part-16/#comment-4156


  93. Hi Anna,

    In regards to your story of Theo, you may want to read Jerry Wennstroms book ‘The Awakened Heart’.

    Jerry, at the peak of his carreer as a established painter destroyed all his works, gave away all his possessions and money, and stepped out into the Void for the next 15 years. He had no choice, he was ‘called’ – and you don’t argue with that. There is no doubt in my mind that Theo will come back from the underworld sooner or later, he just needs to be left alone for a while.

    Like you said ‘The search for it was the beginning and perhaps the end of all this’, and you – of all people – know T.S Eliott and ‘Burnt Norton’ better than anyone…

    Best wishes

    Alexis


  94. Life Person,
    We are not disagreeing. If Robert were forced to come down from the clouds he might get a better grip on himself than he has now but if it is his will to be dishonest we cannot take that away from him or the rest of the people that support him. You’re probably right. For someone who has not been moved by the dead in the fellowship, there’s little hope and yet the freedom to choose is there for all of us and assuming responsibility or bearing the consequences is also there for us. I personally think that we do each other a favor when we call each other’s attention before we move too far out into the wild. For someone like Robert who was so willing to restrict each of our centers so that we behaved more civilized, I don’t see what stops us from restricting his sex center so that he behaves more civilized and controls his greed. We’d be returning a much greater favor than he did for us!

    Thanks Unoanimo, after all, depression is a negative emotion in which one’s self is not surfacing enough. We are strangers with ghost names on the blog, ghosts longing for communities that we’ve lost. Ghosts actualizing communities that we’ve never had. But the point that I was really trying to get to is that there are great highs and lows in each of us. Great qualities and weaknesses. There is no need to look at just one of the sides. One can look at both and still do what is necessary to shape or control the weakness, but if one forgets the quality, then there’s so much danger in damaging the whole. Like taking out a cancer without considering the rest of the patient.

    Besides, that’s what one did and what the fellowship did. Black or white. Student or dead human being. Robert’s servant or worthless being. It all depends on where one starts from and the only place worth starting from is above because there’s nowhere to go if one cannot see anything but the weakness, in one’s self or the world around.

    Another difficulty is letting go of the loved ones, for they were all loved no matter how they disappointed one. But let not the pain of surrendering them turn into bitterness. Yes, I’ve screamed and insulted perhaps, but I’ve loved too many people before the fellowship to not know that at some point one simply has to let them be and by that I don’t mean to not go ahead and try to stop what ever can be stopped with legal action, but the emotional side of it, also has to be taken care of. In fact, the sooner one takes care of the emotional aspect, the easier it is to take legal action.


  95. 90 dick moron

    Jesus is Simple Truth. Don’t waste your breath.


  96. 93

    Hummmm.

    Bruce, I thought it was the awakening of Howard Carter, Asaf’s ‘Asaf’, if you know what I mean.


  97. 94

    Could be too. Six of one…….


  98. Dear Elena

    Good healing stuff 92. I get really tired of the bickering and quibbling. Stay substantial. As Miyamoto Musashi stated in “Book of 5 Rings”

    Go beyond love and grief; learn to serve humanity.

    Yours…..Nigey-pooh, faithful and TRUE.


  99. Bass Ackwards -69

    “After the meeting we were able to share the books we have from Nisargadatta, not only “I Am That”, but the three books edited by Jeanne Dunn of his dialogues at the end of his life, as he continued teaching seemingly unabated despite throat cancer. ”

    IMO anyone who is ill has nothing on anyone else. They lack even the rudiments of consciousness and have no license to teach anything to anyone. They are unable to transform negative emotions, thoughts, sensations or beliefs and IMO never have had. This was a big tip-off for me.


  100. on July 31, 2007 at 4:54 am flying free

    Dear Bass Ackwards #69

    I have been reading your posts with great interest. It is clear you are a very intelligent person, who, sees that “the 4th way and the FoF ” no longer holds the facination it did when you first got in. There is maturity in your postings. Already a moving on.

    You have come across advaita/non-duality, whatever you want to call, and something in it has touched something very deep in you that you RECOGNISE – recognise as truth and as your natural state. Good. Stay there.
    Now comes the scarey part! Immeadiately the Ego grabs hold of the whole thing, takes the crystal clear water and starts to muddy it with concepts, fitting it into the 4th way, helping others, studying it, just like you did the 4th way- and by the time you are finished (give it a few more meetings of blah, blah, blah) and you will have a soup you will not be able to recognize let alone eat.
    The scarier part is that maybe you are afraid of being nothing, no-one, not a special person, absolutely nothing. Maybe you are afraid of being quiet and looking inward, deeply, quietly. Maybe you are afraid of seeing no-one there.
    At a very early stage, something in you has to recognize to either “throw the whole thing over”, and jump into the abyss (that is the only place where true freedom resides). Or you can play hide and seek with yourself for another 10,20, years. I have no idea who you are, male or female, or you age – just ask yourself the question – how much time do you have- maybe 50 years maybe 5 , maybe 2 weeks.
    Is it really worth it? Another decade, maybe more of hide and seek!
    If you have really read Nisargadatta, I mean really read him, then you will ask yourself some basic self inquiry questions.
    If you have spent 20+ years in the FoF like I did, then knowledge is nothing new for you. And you must know by now, it is nothing you can attain. There is nothing you can discover and there is no understanding you can arrive at. You have already arrived. You were always there. It’s already completely present. You are it. Stop looking. You are THAT. What are you looking for?
    A quote from Karl Renz (another advaita person resident in Germany)
    ” There are people who carry teachings by repeating same old words. These parrots, who maintain the traditional concepts, keep the misery alive. All teachings that state there is a way out of misery keep it going. They keep the conceptual process going so long that they become constipated.
    Remember the one who spins, the spider is you. You are weaving this endless network of thoughts and forms. The moment will come when you tie so many knots in your brain that you may suddenly realize it’s impossible to ever undo them. The moment will come when you finally think: ” What’s the point of all this spinning? And who does the spinning anyway? Then you can give up trying and simply be still.”
    Be well, and good luck.


  101. Renald,

    Are you using Robert’s laptop to write this stuff or are you Robert’s laptop… just wondering (?)

    :.]


  102. Bass,

    The gist of it is ~ burn half of Nisargadatta and eat the other half and learn how to make really good Czechoslovakian meat pies and share them with as many vegetarians as possible.

    ;.)


  103. Youknow

    Didn`t mean to interupt your private club, sorry!


  104. 97-Renald
    Gee, I sure hope you’re not a doctor.


  105. on July 31, 2007 at 6:18 am You-me-us-they

    Good morning Beauties!

    On madness:

    “There is a big difference between a mad man and me.
    And it is that I am not mad…” Salvador Dali.

    On changes:
    Check with your friend Amygdala. He leaves in the oldest part of Brain’s City.

    Gratitude.


  106. Flying free
    Your writing on non duality discourages me in terms of finding out more, it destroys a lot of valuble posts by others and pollutes the subject. You would better serve your currant beliefs by doing rather than talking. In my experience no one who writes so confidently and arrogantly, makes so many assumptions about what others need to do or what they think and feel is doing what you say and if you can’t do it why talk about it?

    Those who transfer a formatory approach to a new belief system discourage me. It is not non duality but you finding something to substitute for your belief in the Fellowship that is discouraging. It is a wrong triad, wrong action but since in non-duality there is no scale and relativity no triads, octaves or processes there is nothing to discuss .

    “If you have really read Nisargadatta, I mean really read him, then you will ask yourself some basic self inquiry questions.
    Remember the one who spins, the spider is you. You are weaving this endless network of thoughts and forms. The moment will come when you tie so many knots in your brain that you may suddenly realize it’s impossible to ever undo them.”

    Non dualists say there is no process yet then describe a process , no seperation yet define degree’s of seperation. There is no sleep to awaken from. To me this is sophism and meaningless. If you spoke of the importance and meaning this has for you I would accept that. Once you start making assumptions about others you are lying and apparantly do not see enough to know you are lying and why this introduces negative elements into the discussion.

    If a non dualist approach is a valuble as you think treat it with the respect it deserves.


  107. Re: Unoanimo, 17/78

    Thank you for your reply, which brings clarity to a subject I haven’t sufficiently emphasized. Yes, I agree with what you say about the understanding between O. and G. (And with Arthur at 17/79.) Moreover, I think O’s stories in ISOTM are not ” my personal history, and just that”, but lessons for future Workers and future groups.

    Since I never met r.e.b. I could not refer to him directly; so the perspective in 17/76 is simply that of a student or seeker who is likely to participate in at least one group during his or her life, and who wishes to act from the Work when taking decisions, esp. major ones such as leaving.

    ————————–

    Re: Life Person, 17/80

    Thank you for a powerful reply, Life Person. It offers a lot of food for thought.

    Hell, I trusted my judgement to write what I had written, and there it comes, a storm of critique. :)

    I think ‘trust your judgment’ is a slogan empty of content; it tends to fail us when we most need it…

    Whenever we judge, we judge mostly by means of concepts and pictures that come to us from the past and from exogenous sources (from our life up to the moment of judgment, from other people, books, films, newspapers etc.)

    Is everything that we judge correct?

    The two people in ISOTM who left out of inner considering – ‘we’re not treated properly, they hate us, they keep secrets from us’ – had also trusted their judgment, (and they had no Work-book to refer to) and it was not right judgment.

    I agree with you that the fof exhibits faith-based fundamentalism as appears from certain r.e.b. ideas and certain fof-members’ attitudes and patterns of belief.

    It may even be like you say, that it is then not very helpful to turn for support to one of the sources of their propganda. In casu, ISOTM. Maybe not, but it’s the best I could come up with.

    (Is the New Testament wrong because some people and churches have used it to justify various crimes? Is it right because others have used it as inspiration for masterpieces?)

    A careful reading of ISOTM can reveal many differences from fof dogma. (And here it is where you are so right to claim that we often see not what is there but what we choose to believe. Which claim, by the way, also refutes your statement of ‘trusting one’s judgment’.)

    Nowhere in ISOTM says G that one should stay in the group forever, that who leaves the scool is doomed, that there are many lifetimes etc. O himself left G. and started to teach on his own – how could he forbid that to others? O. refers to the religious teachings of hell and sin as gravely mistaken. O. and G. constantly emphasize the need for understanding and verification and critical spirit. The Fourth way is not the way of blind obedience, it is not the way of faith, and it is not the way of fear. When someone notices that fof moves away from the fourth way principles (and speaking here only in terms of the teaching, leaving aside r.e.b. personal behavior), than someone has to make a choice. And the principles are there, in ISOTM, to help one make that choice. (and thus help one stand against false authority)

    For the rest, all I can say is that obviously my appreciation of ISOTM is different from yours, and that’s fine. I’m not trying to proselytize here, merely trying to think – and am grateful to you and all who offer their thoughts here, for it is all food for me to ponder. In the end, of course, the responsibility for what I choose to believe is my own, and that for what you choose to believe yours, and so on.

    P.S. Something you said at 17/85 is so good, I couldn’t resist the temptation to copy-and-paste it here:

    “Consider the implications of attributing “inner work” and “will” to someone incapable of acting like a decent person–not a “conscious being,” not an “angel,” just a decent human being, who with some consistency treats others as he would like to be treated, for no reason other than it’s the way mature people act.”


  108. 88 the idiot calling himself Jesus

    Do you really that there are people outside of you sick club that believe in the opinion off someone calling himself Jesus an believes that a vain and lying sex maniac has a higher level of being?

    You are where you belong: in the Fellowship of Fools.


  109. on July 31, 2007 at 11:24 am Another Name

    Grief or not
    Be or not
    The sun is out
    The clouds in competition
    Not really.

    Many of us need healing
    we are all longing for something
    Everybody has to find it out for him/herself

    I need this blog to digest,
    To come to a place in myself
    That knows, feels, is.

    I prefer support and kindness
    Anna’s letter was a sharing
    That is something that works for me

    Are we all part of the ocean
    Or are we the ocean?
    Then is there no blame?
    Is all as it is?

    I do not know
    I live the questions
    and my live
    And wish you all well.


  110. Joe Rogans take on negativity and bullshit.

    ltya cy.


  111. on July 31, 2007 at 3:37 pm flying free

    To # 107 A Former Student

    You are absolutely right. I hesitated to write, but words are just that. Hard to express, and they are just words. I don’t take them seriously, and you shouldn’t either. Words, words, words. Where-ever , whatever anyone is doing is just right. After reading many writings from Bass Ackwards- I just had to say something. The person reminded me of Me, and the twistings in the wind.

    Just an aside. I look back on my years in the FoF and find them a bit like a tragic-comedy. I can only laugh out loud now. Fit non-duality into the FoF – perish the thought!
    Enough words -Over and out!


  112. Elena 84
    I have no doubt that Robert has had considerable high states as I have no doubt that I have had them. What I think is worth realizing is that although a large number of people may today have access to high states it does not necessarily mean that they are all that is required to become a leader of men, rather that we are all being able to access other states and it is how we bring the understanding of them down to the actual practice of our lives that matters.
    The “gift” of “higher states” will not in any way replace the need to eat, move, feel or think, it will simply colour our acts in the way we can paint them with our will.

    ——-

    Dear Elena, I agree with what you say above.
    My point is that students of Robert always use his supposed higher consciousness and their states to justify their faith in him and his “peculiar” behaviour. When they have nothing reasonable left to say, their ultimate weapon is the classic “the lower cannot see the higher” routine.

    What I find most suspicious, in this context, is the scarcity of information provided by Robert about what it means to live with his level of consciousness and how it has been achieved. The world is filled with teachings and personal accounts of higher states and encounters with the numinous. Some are very detailed, for example in Buddhist, Tantra and Yoga literature one can find amazingly sophisticated descriptions of the psycho-physical process of awakening and how the awakened mind functions. Mystics of all denominations have given us testimonies of their agonies and ecstasies. And when people who have had higher states without being connected to a teacher or system share what they went through, they tend to include a lot of physical as well as perceptual details of what they experienced.

    In thirtysomething years of teaching, what has Robert really explained about the experience of becoming conscious and the nature of consciousness? What are the signs, the states, the powers, the modes of perceptions, the physical and metaphysical consequences?
    What dangers and challenges await one?

    Did the teacher ever offer any practical insights like the ones following? (taken from one in a myriad websites on the subject)

    “Other goals include the restructuring of old patterns of behavior as values rapidly change. The excess energy that accompanies the intense emotional and sensory events needs to be directed and assimilated. The ego attachment to the heightened experiences along with feelings of superiority which leads to separation from the Oneness can be explored and released. Personal myths and archetypes can be analyzed as to the importance that they hold for the individual’s transformation. The fear that accompanies rapid personal transition must be confronted and embraced. The different aspects of the Shadow self must be acknowledged and integrated. A balancing between self love and love for others further reconstructs the personality into higher levels of consciousness.”

    Not that I am aware of… only vague talk of angels, omens, going from one number to the next, C influence telling him this or that…
    Hmmm… could it be that the blind is leading the blind?


  113. “Consider the implications of attributing “inner work” and “will” to someone incapable of acting like a decent person–not a “conscious being,” not an “angel,” just a decent human being, who with some consistency treats others as he would like to be treated, for no reason other than it’s the way mature people act.”
    _________________________________________________

    If every current member of the Fellowship of Friends could read and sincerely consider this simple, uncomplicated observation from “Life Person” perhaps more would be able to see the truth and stop giving the time, energy and money to this man that enables him to continue in his corrupt and deceitful lifestyle.

    It was a revelation to me when I looked at Robert Burton and realized in the depths of my being that he is not a decent person, not a good person or an honest person and had none of the virtues that I admire and would expect of someone who represents himself as a spiritual guide. He is not even a nice person. We told ourselves and each other many desperate lies in order to avoid letting this obvious fact about him penetrate our hearts. Continuing to do this is severely damaging to one’s character and conscience and I hope for every follower, no matter how entrenched in the dirty politics, administration and grasping for position, that they wake up to this before they have lost all possiblity of becoming a decent human being let alone spiritual growth.


  114. on July 31, 2007 at 4:10 pm Critical Mass

    Robert Burton regularly maxxes out his credit cards, and his personal bookkeeper, R_dney C_arter, continually has to deal with the credit card companies. This year Robert has been overspending so much that he can’t pay his cc bills at the end of each month. The Fellowship was partially audited late 2006, so it’s not quite as easy to redirect funds as it once was. The answer to this predicament? To get Al_s_nne, the most aggressive fundraiser, to phone a few of the wealthiest and most faithful longterm students and ask them to each donate $1000 towards a “gift” for Robert. When one of them, D_ana K, asked what the gift would be, she was told it was a gift, and that you don’t ask what your money is paying for if you’re giving a gift.

    You may have noticed that the emails now request checks written to Robert Burton for the birthday, crystallization, anniversary of Isis gifts.and any other anniversaries that can be invented. In previous years, Robert graciously requested donations to the FOF special projects instead of personal gifts or personal money. Projects like the unbuilt bistro. I wonder where that money went.

    Has it already been mentioned that when students pay in cash at potager lunches, that money is used to pay Robert’s boys when they take part in the more hardcore sex acts?


  115. 108 Alice E.
    “A careful reading of ISOTM can reveal many differences from fof dogma. (And here it is where you are so right to claim that we often see not what is there but what we choose to believe. Which claim, by the way, also refutes your statement of ‘trusting one’s judgment’.)”

    A book and something you experience yourself are 2 very different things.

    Consider this, if RB or anyone else would write a book about FOF it would be different from what you or I experienced being in FOF.
    Because of the different prospectives.

    Same applies to O and ISOTM. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT WHAT HE WROTE IS COMPLETE AND OBJECTIVE?
    And how can you compare a book with a real-life experiences?

    You don’t consider ISOTM to be some sort of personal evolution bible, do you?
    Otherwise, you just made it into a dogma.


  116. 107 A Former Student:

    That was a very odd reaction you had to Flying Free 101. I know the lady who wrote 101 well and she really does live the words. I guess something in her way of writing pushed your buttons. If you could get beyond that reaction you’d see that what she wrote makes a lot of sense.

    RN


  117. Re: Who Knows, 17/108

    I don’t take money from people to scare them to death in exchange with some half-baked theories and to throw eschatological anathemas on dissenters.

    I am very aware that my opinion is just that – my opinion, and on this title it is offered in this forum; I don’t try to impose it on anyone, I don’t consider it objective and absolute truth. It’s a pity you didn’t bother to read that message till the end.

    O. was right: negative emotions (in casu: your anger, or should I say righteous indignation, virtually splashing from the screen) are telling us lies and presenting only a part (and a deformed one at that) of reality. Your message is full of lies.


  118. This non-dual stuff is all quite interesting. I spout off about it once and a while (a lot). I would even be bold enough to say I understand exactly what is being communicated, that I “get it”. The paragraph Laura quoted from the internet had a bunch of good stuff in it in my opinion.

    I also agree whole heartedly with where A Former Student is coming from. It reminds me of what O. said about there being many descriptions in literature about the “4th state” of consciousness but few about “3rd state”.

    Here we are in 2007 America (or 2007 wherever and if it is not America, lucky you) trying to find our way through life. Dealing with the financial realities and rampant materialism and all that stuff and also trying to keep our bearings in a “spiritual” world.

    It is all well and good to say just “jump off” and “let go” and bravo to those who can do it and not get sent to the funny farm or prison-industrial complex.

    Sometimes I can see quite clearly I am a “dream inside of me” and often return to the simple awareness of myself and at those times I wonder why there is a hell. But I don’t think at this time I am able to answer that question.

    I think it has to do with transition (but then doesn’t everything) . It is not that our ego needs to be eliminated (can’t be in my opinion) and our conditioned and habitual selves somehow become uncondioned but the unconditioned in us awakens more and more in waves through time and it is a unique, solitary and difficult process. There are many parts of us that need to be “brought up to speed” and many bends and twists from the past that are hard to straighten. It may be we will have to walk with a limp for the rest of this life.

    Thank you again to all for your stories and thoughts. Though, for me, there is the unpleasant taste of the fof language scattered throughout, still, for me, it has been an unexpextedly enlightening blog. Thank you all (and I mean all).

    A special thanks to you Sheik!


  119. 120 Yesri Baba: “the unconditioned in us awakens more and more in waves through time and it is a unique, solitary and difficult process. There are many parts of us that need to be “brought up to speed” and many bends and twists from the past that are hard to straighten”

    Isn’t this just the mind complicating things? The mind likes to think it’s moving in time and progress is being made (or not), but really there is no time, it’s all now. It’s a small shift in being to see that you and I and everyone else are nothing but awareness, which is already completely here, no progress or change necessary.

    x RN


  120. 117

    A good title for that book would be:

    I Search of the Cash

    Fragments of the Hidden Life of an Sex meniac


  121. 100 Renald: “IMO anyone who is ill has nothing on anyone else. They lack even the rudiments of consciousness and have no license to teach anything to anyone. They are unable to transform negative emotions, thoughts, sensations or beliefs and IMO never have had. This was a big tip-off for me.”

    Thanks for the wackiest entry for a while! Did you do some kind of a survey to come to this conclusion?

    RN


  122. Critical Mass 116

    Maybe it’s just a diarrhea?

    Diarrhea- a condition in which feces are discharged from the bowels frequently and in a liquid form.

    Sounds right.

    Eat a hard boiled egg. Should help.

    Hopefully it’s not cholera. That would be deadly.
    To die (become identified, asleep) from dehydration (absence of love and detachment) is not very nice.


  123. Alice E. 199

    108 is your post, not mine. Be more attentive.

    I did read your post till the end.

    And what were you shouting about negative emotions?


  124. 125 refers to 119 not 199.
    Sorry, Alice E.


  125. 122

    it’s been written here.

    Maybe we should rename the blog?

    I have a different idea for a book.

    “101 of mind masturbation” -Read the blog for practical examples.


  126. ‘Who Knows’ + ‘Jesus’ you both give a splendid example of the FOF at it’s finest.

    Please keep sending reactions, and share your burlesque knowledge with us.

    But for the shake of you ‘evolution’: does you teacher knows you are writing here? Probably not and knowing him he will not approve on it.

    So you are not really in the FOF and not really out of it. You just don’t know what you want in life.


  127. Hey Who Knows-

    Go away! (bruce, help me out here)


  128. Dear A Former Student:

    I like this, from Nisargadatta. Maybe you will too.

    Q: What you say goes beyond all experience. If it is not experience-able, why at all talk about it?
    M: Consciousness is intermittent, full of gaps. Yet there is the continuity of identity. What is this sense of identity due to, if not to something beyond consciousness?
    Q: If I am beyond the mind, how can I change myself?
    M: Where is the need of changing anything? The mind is changing anyhow all the time. Look at your mind dispassionately; this is enough to calm it. When it is quiet, you can go beyond it. Do not keep it busy all the time. Stop it — and just be. If you give it rest, it will settle down and recover its purity and strength. Constant thinking makes it decay.
    Q: If my true being is always with me, how is it that I am ignorant of it?
    M: Because it is very subtle and your mind is gross, full of gross thoughts and feelings. Calm and clarify your mind and you will know yourself as you are.
    Q: Do I need the mind to know myself?
    M: You are beyond the mind, but you know with your mind. It is obvious that the extent, depth and character of knowledge depend on what instrument you use. Improve your instrument and your knowledge will improve.
    Q: To know perfectly I need a perfect mind.
    M: A quiet mind is all you need. All else will happen rightly, once your mind is quiet. As the sun on rising makes the world active, so does self-awareness affect changes in the mind. In the light of calm and steady self-awareness inner energies wake up and work miracles without any effort on your part.
    Q: You mean to say that the greatest work is done by not working?
    M: Exactly. Do understand that you are destined for enlightenment. Co-operate with your destiny, don’t go against it, don’t thwart it. Allow it to fulfill itself. All you have to do is to give attention to the obstacles created by the foolish mind.

    Wiht love to all both in and out,

    Joseph G


  129. 129 steve lang

    Just another old asshole with a new name. Let them rant. Good for the blog, not good for the FOF.


  130. 128, 129

    Thanks for letting me know.

    Greatly appreciated.

    Now keep you nose in your ass and don’t mumble.

    And take Steve Lung with you.

    What a beautiful people you are.


  131. 131

    I hope I will not out-rant you guys.
    You are Masters here.
    Feel confident?

    “rant |rant| verb [ intrans. ] speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way : he was still ranting on about the unfairness of it all.”

    Unfairness of it all. Your melody.


  132. on July 31, 2007 at 6:22 pm Critical Mass

    124, Who Knows

    I guess that you are trying to say that my postings are like diarrhea. It’s a bad choice of insult. You know that one of Robert’s sexual pleasures involves having young men shit on him, don’t you? What did you think the Ex-lax was for?

    The same applies for calling the blog mental masturbation. Sometimes Robert just masturbates while he watches his boys fuck each other.


  133. 134

    You were obviously present at such occasions and can personally witness?!


  134. on July 31, 2007 at 6:28 pm Old Fish In The Sea

    124: Who Knows

    Are you saying that what was said about Robert by Critical Mass is not true? Or are you saying that they may be true but what happens to money in the FOF is not important?

    I think many of us really want to understand what is true and what is not. I personally, am surprised by my incredible lack of curiosity for so long, regarding how my hard earned dollars are used, and how my teacher uses his time and resources to further the Fellowship. How could I buffer these questions for so long?

    Your response, since it criticizes without addressing any of the statements made, does not help, but tends to reinforce the possibility that there is some truth to the allegations that Robert is not a good steward of FOF resources.

    Does he NOT max out his credit cards?
    Is it NOT true that he is unable to pay what he owes?
    Is it NOT true that cash from Potoger’s goes to Robert’s Boys?
    Is it NOT true that those asking where “Gift” money goes are told that it is none of their business?
    And where did the money for the bistro go?

    If you know anything about these questions then why not answer them directly? If you think that they are irrelevant towards understanding Robert, then why do you think that? If you don’t know anything then why not find out or let them stand so that someone who does know can help us to understand?

    Many of us became tired of the Fellowship’s inability to be truthful about Robert – to try to honesly answer some of the allegations against him. Why not be more open and honest? Many of us felt that it was partly our role to support Robert which meant explaining his actions. But now we want to really understand. I remember a student being asked to leave for wanting to openly discuss such matters. Why all the paranoia and secrecy and negative responses to anyone that asks or tries to discuss it in the open? Robert’s level of consciousness and the way he manefests his accomplishments is important to every Fellowship member – afterall, he is defining their way of thinking, acting, and their tastes.

    I personally believe that if the Fellowship is going to survive, it will need to openly and objectively address many issues which have been repeatedly raised and are made more public in this blog. This may mean accepting that there are some real problems in Robert’s judgement. It may mean trying to address them instead of hiding the truth so as to reinforce what I believe to be a myth – (that everything Robert does is beneficial to the school and acceptable from the point of view of higher morality). Currently there are no real checks and balances in Robert’s behavior so as to ensure sound decisions. This denial that there may be a problem and refusal to find solutions may eventually lead to an end to what we worked so hard to build.

    But answers like yours that attack those that question without addressing any of the information presented, only reinforce the impression that there is something that the Fellowship is desperate to hide. This approach does not work very well for those seeking truth.


  135. on July 31, 2007 at 6:41 pm Critical Mass

    135, Who Knows,

    Some of what I post comes from my direct experience, some has been told to me by the people involved, some comes from the general pool of rumors. I don’t wish to reveal my identity, so I will not reveal which parts of my posts belong to which category. I am happy to retract a claim if the people involved post directly to the blog. There was a good example of that when V denied that he had been asked to hack into the blog. (It seems that he had been asked if he could trace the bulk emailings.) If G or R or J or other students involved in the hardcore sex want to post their experiences and clarify what they do, how often, and how much they enjoy it, then let them post and I will retract any inaccurate claims.


  136. on July 31, 2007 at 6:43 pm Kid Shelleen

    To: Yesri baba
    Re: Post 120

    I think we see eye to eye to eye. I’m tend to be skeptical when people lightly throw around the phrase Death of the Ego. My peak experiences fall into two prime catagories: the sublime and the terrifying. When I read my first Tony Parsons’ book back in ’01, I wondered what the difference was between his reported state and some sort of disassociative mental illness. Maybe I wonder that because my ego is not ready for the big leap yet. However, I’m more inclined to believe that these peak experiences are meant to be integrated into our conscious minds to help direct and inform our lives, rather than them being an end unto themselves, a destination.

    “Can we really walk around high all the time?”— That was the question of my twenties and thirties. I’ve abandoned it for tougher, more interesting questions, but I do occasionally come back to it.


  137. 136

    “Why all the paranoia and secrecy and negative responses to anyone that asks or tries to discuss it in the open?”

    Well, for one thing it’s defending one’s gullibility, malleability, blindness and sometimes stupidity. I can easily see that it was in me at one time during some of my years of membership.

    Of course, where the FOF has gone even more batshit crazy, since i left, one needs a higher level of buffer. You need to stick your fingers even deeper in your ears, and sing your song even loader so nothing penetrates.

    When one lives near a garbage dump, one eventually blocks out the smell and doesn’t notice it much, but when someone starts smearing shit all over you, you really need to develop better internal defenses to ignore it.

    I’ve found from observation that the more one defends, ignores or lies in defense of the FOF, the harder they are hit by the shock of eventual recognition, if they’re lucky.

    I remember a couple “teachers” and students who boldly and emphatically denied the truth for years even when the truth was blatantly being held up in their faces. When they finally accepted the facts, they, even more than the actual victims, frequently seemed more affronted by their having been deceived than the men it was actually perpetrated upon. That’s pretty interesting right there. The most pompous and arrogant seem to be the most offended by their own stupidity and blindness.

    It’ll all happensthe way it’s supposed to. But that doesn’t mean one can’t see and be part of the momentum and direction that seems inevitable.


  138. 114 Laura,

    I completely agree with what you’re saying and still believe that it is not all totally rotten. If Robert were made to pay a couple of years in solitude and brought back to a decent community, he’d be just another human being with a thousand mistakes on his back to let go of. So would Girard and a whole lot of people in and outside the fellowship.

    I am all for legal action because it is the fellowship’s intention to continue ripping people off but legal action does not mean that people cannot change. Enough suffering changes any one.


  139. 132 who knows

    Sorry – but you don’t make much of an impression on me.

    Are you incapable to give normal answers in an discussion? You are just shouting around like an imbecile.

    Avoiding the question that for you as a student and believer in Robert Burton would matter most:

    WHY ARE YOU WRITING ON THE BLOG IF YOUR TEACHER DOESN’T WANT YOU TO?

    In a second thought I know now why you are shouting and avoiding this question.

    It is very simple – because you can not answer it without looking like a fool.

    Now – if you want you can shout again or give an real reply. The choice is yours and the path that the rest of your life will take with it to.


  140. 118 Rhino Neal
    107 A Former Student:

    That was a very odd reaction you had to Flying Free 101. I know the lady who wrote 101 well and she really does live the words. I guess something in her way of writing pushed your buttons. If you could get beyond that reaction you’d see that what she wrote makes a lot of sense.

    RN
    My reaction is based on the truly appalling lack of understanding in criticizing someone for doing exactly the same thing she did in the post. If trying to convince or educate people about non-duality as Bass Ackwards is doing is an incorrect process so is writing about it.
    The whole systemic logical contradictions inherent in non-dualism continues to frustrate me.

    If she wrote “In my opinion”, “In my experience”, “From my currant perspective” then it is fine. When anyone presents what can only be know to someone with objective consciousness as a fact like Gregory Goodwin likes to do then it is fair to question this. It can be indicative of either poor communication skills, merely not using the correct tense or an underlying attitude in which that person is in imagination about their consciousness.

    I think the different quality of response indicates this ladies being (113 flying free ) as do Gregory’s violently rude objections ( idiot, fool, retard, mentally ill, shut the fuck up) to what he sees as challenges to his authority as a conscious man. Sometimes we can see something through criticism ( stepping on someones corns) better than other ways. Some people respond to a challenge to be the words by being the words others are like GG. We all make are own choices. If non dualism is a positive force than the most important thing is to model the positive results.

    I am very impressed with her response ( not only because she agrees with me) but because it shows non-identification and a lack of expressing negativity, qualities I would like to have.

    Rhino Neal ,wrote
    “If you could get beyond that reaction you’d see that what she wrote makes a lot of sense. ”

    If you could get behind your preconceptions you might see what she wrote made no sense at all. It is the contradiction of non dualism that after you say words cannot describe it you should shut up or find a different way of writing about it. My brief experience is that there is a flood of words many of them for sale about non-dualism, with seminars etc. just another form of selling awakening. Does this mean it is not valuable , of course not, but for everyone? That is just wrong, lazy thinking.

    There was a book called “Many roads, one journey”. What is right and useful depends on you . It is where the individual is at in their development that determines what is useful to move on to their next phase. Neither non-dualism nor those who are its apologists can address this because this is scale and relativity. Non-dualism does not include the concepts of process, scale and relativity. In non-dualism there is no process of becoming ready to hear the truth, no process of absorbing and making the truth ones own because it admits of no process. This to me is ridiculous.
    Can I see a plant grow, a fire burn, a wound heal?

    If it is useful for fellowship members, if because of the experience of the Fellowship of Friends there is something appealing in this approach that is fine. If you become an evangelical non-dualist remember that any active force produces a reaction. What is useful is to find out how to be third force.


  141. Hello Laura ~

    You wrote ~

    “What I find most suspicious, in this context, is the scarcity of information provided by Robert about what it means to live with his level of consciousness and how it has been achieved. The world is filled with teachings and personal accounts of higher states and encounters with the numinous.”
    ________________________________________

    The reason Robert Burton does not get ‘campfire cozy’ with naturally, curiously discerning people is that it would reveal that he’s simply another Man #4, struggling like his ‘friends’ to gather something together (not sure what togetherness means to an entity who has formed a ‘school of togetherness’ based on lies, deceit, spiritual fraud and downright cruel treatment of both the living and the dead.)

    One interesting and sorta ironic fact (my opinion) is that although Robert Burton holds his entire spiritual ego up on the stilts of ‘his idea’ of C-Influence (conscious spirits), he has not regard or concept of unconscious spirits, i.e., those spirits still down here, who are basically no different than one’s (inside) bodies, just a bit more pissed off at times, for distractions are not so easy to come by when you’re disembodied and do not have ‘a machine’, a sorta ‘big doll’ to play with and share with other ‘dolls’; this also means there are less buffers, etc.

    For ages, Shamans, conscious beings, (even contemporary Sufi teachers ~ See “Daughter of Fire” by Irina Tweedie (you would love this book Elena; I think you’d also find a sort of soul-mate in Irina) have PAID inner and outer ATTENTION to the actuality of the spiritual world meshed up against the one that plays itself in and out of the physical…

    Robert Burton knows nothing about this dimension; for, if he did he’d not be creating such enormously pitiful ‘shocks’ for such, feeding the painbody side of that which denies these ‘spirits’ graduation into a soul-octave…

    For me, (because I’ve heard about it from people who know of my blog postings categorizing the crimes of the Fellowship of Friends) what looks like identification with third dimensional stuff, keeping of an account, lunatic passive-aggression and so forth; is something very different (for me), for them, who knows…

    Looks can deceive, as Robert Burton has, by default, taught his students most elementary level of conscience, their subservient (wrong work BTW) instinctive center’s relationship to his ‘smiling one’…

    For me, all that we are doing on this blog reaches far beyond the obvious personal realm, it is real food on a table that the ‘right and wrong’ simply cannot see (yet)…

    This ‘table’ has existed since human beings were established on the planet; albeit an eyelash on God’s eye, at least it’s god’s eyelash and not something you’d buy at Walmart in the ‘beautification section’, if you catch my drift…

    Our choices, our words, our conclusions, laughter, rage… all this stuff gives birth…

    As far as omens go; in a real school (my opinion), the hobby and the craft of interpretations would go through a rigorous consensus; and while dealing with such coincidences that coupled together ‘seem’ to form some sort of message, it would not be made to look like it was coming from the nucleus of the school, one person, one egg, rather, from the nest to the egg, not from the unhatched egg to the nest…

    Robert’s seemingly always having to do something with nothing, ‘teaching’ meaning, though not being what the meaning imply, putting mind-labels to simple beauty that transcends mind activity,

    labeling ancient labels that simply refer to more labels, ancient affirmations reinforcing his affirmations, that in turn reinforce the student’s affirmations (a silly circle for a school of awakening, if you ask me) yet he does not allow any dialog during the lecture, I never had that in University,

    we were always allowed to express, add, debate, remind, expose our assumptions, being, idiot-ness ‘out there’ from ‘in here’; not only are Robert Burton’s students ‘trapped’ externally in a mind-form-school, so are their internal worlds caught in a web of mind activity, looking forwards to, gotta have, gotta be recognized for having donated to this for Robert, etc.

    Although, I did experience Robert Burton’s way of ‘doing discussion’, somewhere else as a small child, which, consequentially, after having experienced such, told my ‘mentors’ that I was never going back, they did not resist my ‘supposed stubbornness’ and allowed me to stay at home on Sundays,

    I believe it was Batman & Robin, MASH, I Love Lucy, The Three Stooges, Green Acres, The Adams Family and various ‘specials’ that offered me a broader look at god’s sermon…

    Thank you Mortisha… when I saw you cutting the heads off the roses, to then place the left over stems in the vase as ‘your sort of bouquet’ I knew at that moment, real love…

    A little SPACE would be nice, just give Asaf a ‘real job’ that demonstrates his weaknesses and being-ends, not one that overly compensates and expresses his automatic talents, maybe he’ll snap out of it… yet…

    An egg cannot build a nest; although the probable arrival of one does… The Fellowship of Friends, as it is, seems to me to be a nest that gives birth to more nests, while students go around playing ‘hot potato’ with their eggs…
    ______________________________________________

    Love to you all.


  142. 136 Old Fish

    Well, nicely written. What can I say.

    I had never thought of Robert as a bookkeeper or a business owner. And students as shareholders.

    This model would be very appropriate in a bank or a company, but not in a Religious organization, as I believe FOF to be. And Religious in a true meaning of this word, as something that brings us closer to Higher levels of being.

    So, from my point of view. We give our money not to ask something in return. If we feel that RB or FOF owe us something because we had worked so hard to make teaching payments, and now we are disappointed, because we learned that and that, then it is a lie, on our part. Our aim was wrong right from the beginning. We hoped to invest some of our money, and hopefully, with time, get a good return. Like, maybe Robert would finally announce that we are a conscious being, or something like that.

    But if you give your money out of abundance, not scarcity, why would you worry if RB had spent it on some new cloth for himself or his friends? It’s not the only way he spend money after all.

    Buying consciousness inevitably brings deep disappointment.


  143. on July 31, 2007 at 9:33 pm Life Person

    Alice E. (108)

    My post (80) wasn’t intended as a personal criticism, and I apologize if it came off that way. It was intended as a critique of treating any form of teaching–in this case, even a valuable book–as sacred, or suspending critical thinking about it. In Search was one of the most influential books I’ve read, and continue to recommend it, and continue to find it a good source of practical suggestions. But it’s still just a book, and O. was still just a man.

    Nor did I mean to suggest that everyone should throw all counsel to the winds, do whatever pops into their heads, and call it “trusting their own judgment.”

    What I saw, and continue to see, in the FoF is an imbalance, in which there has been far too much blind faith, supported by chapter and verse, and far too little common sense and trusting in one’s own observations and conscience. It appears to have increased, rather than decreased, over the years, to the point that people are now fed a continuous stream of material that has no practical value other than as supposed evidence that whatever RB says is true.

    I don’t disagree that a person trapped in such a situation might find it useful to read some of the passages in In Search you’ve highlighted, but I think it may be best for many to simply stop filtering all of their views about the FoF through what they’ve been told by FoF, and even “work books,” which it may be difficult to read with true objectivity after so many years of investing them with tremendous significance. There comes a time to come to one’s own conclusions, even about things about which one does not feel entirely confident. You ask whether we can judge everything correctly, and I would say, at a certain point, we have no choice, and waiting until we feel completely confident in our own judgment before exercising it leads to 20-year stints in the FoF, followed by what-was-I-thinking.

    One implication of Bruce’s #139 is that certain types of people are more, rather than less, likely to remain fiercely loyal the more irrational–more absurd, more contrary to common sense–the church doctrine becomes. Some people just seem to prefer a faith-based teaching, maybe because it relieves them of having to do any critical thinking and any responsibility; following the teaching is an end in itself, and becomes the highest end. There’s a reason most people on earth adhere to a religion that essentially focuses on believing things that are unverifiable, and don’t think RB hasn’t noticed this. There are ways that harness this urge, and may well lead to high states, and maybe awakening, but the FoF doesn’t attempt to do that, nor does RB have the experience to teach such methods, any more than listening to mass at the corner church is reasonably calculated to lead to awakening.

    Others told themselves when they joined that what they really liked was the emphasis on verification, because they’re nobody’s fool. We still hear this; it’s one of the more powerful methods of keeping those who imagine themselves more sophisticated than the “believers” in the sheep-shearing cycle. It eventually becomes unacceptable to them to acknowledge that they are, indeed, somebody’s fool, so they cling all the more tightly to their folly. Leading to, for example, the sad spectacle of Who Knows (80), or the careful, “I will grant you such-and-such, but it remains true that thus-and-so” rationalizations of the more articulate sheep.


  144. Who Knows #144

    A Religious organization? No wonder I left. I joined a Fourth Way School (or so I thought) that was going to impart practical ways to reach higher levels of awareness/consciousness. I did not get involved to be in an environment of faith and worship.
    I knew something had changed……..


  145. 137 Critical Mess

    You know guys and girls that Crit. Mass’s real name is ……………

    And he is known to be a pedophile, homophobic, narcissistic, a sadomasochist, underground terrorist, Maoist, sloth, murderer, lier, drug addict, and a friend of Fidel Castro.

    And until you prove me wrong I will continue spreading all the rumors I had heard about you, Mr. ……….

    How does it taste, your piece of cake?


  146. 146

    You joined a school of Steve Lang.

    And you left because you did not get what you wanted- Steve Lang’s awakening. You forgot, or never knew, that “Steve” will never going to wake up.

    Religious does not mean faith and worship, unless you only want to see that part.


  147. 147 Who Knows

    I would think that if you have the balls to place someone’s name you’d have the balls to back it up with yours. Your integrity, honor, honesty, inner bravery and all around usefulness diminishes more with each post.

    keep talking.


  148. “Who Knows”

    WHY ARE YOU WRITING ON THE BLOG IF YOUR TEACHER DOESN’T WANT YOU TO?


  149. 150 Peter

    Because he is what he is. Or she is what she is.


  150. 117 Who Knows wrote

    “A book and something you experience yourself are 2 very different things.”

    “You don’t consider ISOTM to be some sort of personal evolution bible, do you?
    Otherwise, you just made it into a dogma.”

    You are not really saying much here. Study and reflection of ISOTM is not the same as making it a dogma. This is a total misuse of the language. No where did they write this. One observation is a proven fact. Members of the Fellowship of Friends have failed to utilize what is of value in the work books.
    Re reading, questioning, comparing ones experiences to what is described is a useful process. So is stating your opinions whether correct or not, that is if you have the being to stand the reaction to shallow observations.

    “A book and something you experience yourself are 2 very different things.”
    Did you have to think real hard to get to this rather unprofound “fact”.

    Part of the method of the 4th way as taught by Ouspensky, Gurdjieff, Nicoll and Collin was a development of the intellectual function. An ability to think. In this sense there is a similarity to the 3rd way or way of the monk as through thinking we attempt to discover truth and than develop the being to live the knowledge. Nicoll wrote in depth on “metonia” to think in a new way and the transformational power of right thinking using intellectual parts of centers. “to think in a new way” in modern psychology is called cognitive therapy and is used in a number of therapeutic approaches as well as in transformational psychology.

    In relation to members of the Fellowship non-dualism may serve this function of opening up the possibility of changing attitudes and developing new ways of thinking. Rereading the core work books and going back to ones owns verifications and understanding as well as questioning the methods and experience of the Fellowship of Friends from my perspective is a useful activity.

    Maybe not what works for everyone but one to which I am wholly sympathetic. I do not believe that the Fellowship, Robert Burton ,his teaching and the 4th way and system are the same thing. For almost 40 years Robert Burton has and continues to use the Gurdjieff and Ouspensky names as marketing tools for his own fraudulent “school” which is neither a Gurdjieff – Ouspensky teaching nor part of The 4th way.

    In a list of the top 10 most important books in my life “In Search of the Miraculous” would be #1, with “Beelzebub’s Tales”, “The 4th way” , “The Theory of Celestial Influence” and Nicoll’s work following closely.

    Is it a “perfect” book. No , but it has much that is valuble from the two men I consider most important in the development and transmission of the ideas that give the 4th way its transformational power. It is not the beginning and end of work it is one part of and that an important part of personall work to develop ones own ability for “active being mentation” by studying and using as much from all sources as possible.

    Many of the ideas that were new when Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Nicoll and Collin wrote are now part of everyday knowledge. Dr. Phil uses techniques of transformational psychology on a popular show. Books on transformational psychology proliferate. This may all be a result of the release of this powerful knowledge into life some 60 years ago.

    A grounding in a subject is not the end of the study of that subject but the beginning.


  151. 141

    I will try harder! And I promise, one day you will be impressed. :-)

    People make this mistake all the time. Like looking up in the Bible about how to behave sexually. I had read something about this recently. According to Bible, or to the preacher that was writing, it is good for the woman to swallow the sperm of their lovers, since Bible says that the semen should not be spoiled.
    What a nonsense conclusion.

    Same with you Pet. Do you think I should consult Robert about how I brush my teeth or ride a bike?
    Furthermore, there was no direct request from Robert asking not to participate in the blog.

    Got it?!

    Now go home and take some rest.


  152. 149

    What a full.

    it’s just a game

    it’s just a dream

    The difference is, I don’t believe it is REAL.

    P.S. Let me know if you want to hear your real name :-)


  153. 151

    And you are what you are.

    Very profound.

    I am deeply touched.


  154. 154

    Do you mean the name I’ve always posted with?

    And didn’t expect you to respond to the actual content of my post. None of you brave souls ever do. Judging by the arrogance and self-love in your posts I would guess that you’re still putting out for the man. You seem similar to the description of another student. The one, who after a few drinks, started to recite the price of all the gifts he got for his whoring.

    I’m glad you’re content with where you are. I’m content with where you are also. I think we’d both agree with that.

    Of course, I think you’ve been here before, with another cowardly pseudonym.


  155. 144 ~

    You wrote ~

    “But if you give your money out of abundance, not scarcity, why would you worry if RB had spent it on some new cloth for himself or his friends? It’s not the only way he spend money after all.”
    ________________________________________________

    “But” and “if”… two of the most famous School of Relative Awakening words for buffering the ‘facts’…

    To me, based on my personal sense of how I earn my money (it’s not from mommy or daddy BTW) and even if it were, I’d wish to honor them for how they procured it the same as I attempt to honor myself…

    In ‘the real world’ no one gives money from “abundance”, you’re stuck in a Captain Kangaroo world where Laurence Welk is blowing bubbles and Elvis doesn’t fart…

    To blithely give money out with no regard or connection to one’s conscience is sleep-walking; something I’d rather not be involved in while opening my skull up for brain surgery possibilities; so keep that money flowing, drown your conscience in ‘Party hard while you can.’ euphoria…

    money is a ‘symbol’, it shows something of ourselves as we spend it and how… If you wish to spend your ‘blood diamonds’ knowingly on more silk suits for Robert Burton so that his cactus hide appears more smooth and shiny, welp, party hard dude, practice smiling, you’ll need it…
    ___________________

    l.t.y.a.


  156. 147 Who Knows

    You’re a kept man.

    “How does it taste, your piece of cake”?


  157. A Former Student ~

    You wrote ~

    “One observation is a proven fact. Members of the Fellowship of Friends have failed to utilize what is of value in the work books.”
    __________________

    “Proven fact” from “one observation” (?) That’s brave…

    Yet, this is simply not true; take this ‘odd’ chain of events;

    In the beginning Robert Burton outright lied about his ‘celibacy’ (falsely and imaginatively aligning himself with a phantom image of what he could not be for Alex Horn);

    Alongside this he lied about being ‘his school’ being a direct descendant of the G & O fourth way ‘railroad’… Lot’s of spinning in the very beginning, as Robert Burton hid out, slinking around behind the work book study groups, a Sith in a monk’s robe…

    In the beginning students did utilize the work books, quotes were incorporated in articles published, daily cards, etc… So long as Robert Burton stayed out of the spot light of the Train Engine and off the tracks…

    As soon as Robert Burton ‘intentionally’ (not to mention the newspapers and letters circulating exposing him) exposed himself, the fourth way workbooks and their influence began to dwindle, (this is not a coincidence, because Robert Burton’s truer being-self had always been in this state of not aligning with the work books or with the role of a true teacher)…

    So, as his darkness was brought to ‘light’, (THE LIGHT, being the work books) were brought to darkness; now, that’s a “proven fact”… (not that I am trying to prove anything here, it’s there already for the connections to be made)…

    As more and more of Robert Burton’s DARKNESS was eaten as LIGHT, the more and more the school began metamorphosing into an outward representation of Robert Burton’s inner mirror…

    So there, ‘Who Knows’, toast to that…

    Who Knows ~

    You wrote ~

    “I will try harder! And I promise, one day you will be impressed. :-)”
    _____________

    Remember, those in here have graduated from Robert Burton groveling (for the most part)… So keep that language for Asaf and Dorian, you might even get a tip or all the tips from the last Potage Sunday Luncheon.
    ________________________________________

    l.t.y.a.


  158. 142 A Former Student: “If trying to convince or educate people about non-duality as Bass Ackwards is doing is an incorrect process so is writing about it.”

    What Flying Free actually said was: “Immediately the Ego grabs hold of the whole thing, takes the crystal clear water and starts to muddy it with concepts, fitting it into the 4th way, helping others, studying it, just like you did the 4th way.”

    She’s advising against trying to incorporate Advaita into the Fourth Way, and against studying and discussing it intellectually as we did with the Fourth Way. There’s something particularly odd about introducing it into FoF meetings, kind of like new wine in old bottles.

    But talking about it in other contexts can be helpful, sharing experiences and so on. Writing about it is difficult because words are inherently dualistic, but it’s not a complete waste of time, especially if you’re describing what you’re experiencing.

    It’s nothing to get upset about, but for sure the mind is not very enthusiastic about the reality of not existing, although it enjoys playing around with the concept intellectually.

    RN


  159. 156 Bruce

    Your real name.

    From now on you will be known as Goofy Goblin.

    158

    Stop talking to yourself in a mirror.

    Poor guy, lost his last marble.


  160. Who knows – you bitterness, anger and rudeness do more damage to the reputation of your beloved school than most posts of ex-members.
    Whether you know it or not but you represent the “face” of the school here and are seen as a true product of it. (Just like other wonderful people like Simple Truth, Jesus etc.) Nice “face”!

    Any prospective student who’ll ever read your beautiful postings will have no problem deciding whether to join FOF or not!

    So please keep talking! You have to keep talking! Your angles are great. May be you should invite your like-minded friends to participate too. ;)

    By the way, the main school task is about non-expression of negativity… Obviously, School really “works” for you.


  161. 157 unoanimo

    ““But” and “if”… two of the most famous School of Relative Awakening words for buffering the ‘facts’…
    ——

    Is that one of the “facts” from Snapple?
    Or did you read it in the Webster Dictionary?

    Oh, no. It could not be true!

    You made it up!

    You fucking lier!

    I almost believed you!

    And now no more!

    Give me back my money!

    If not I will sue you!

    ——-

    In ‘the real world’ –

    there is no conscious beings and awakening, you know.
    There is only money making slave machine, that dictates how and where you will spend your money. What you live for and how you will die. That is your ‘real world’, my dear.

    And I wish you well.


  162. on 31 Jul 2007 at 5:12 pm
    121 Rhino Neal
    “120 Yesri Baba: “the unconditioned in us awakens more and more in waves through time and it is a unique, solitary and difficult process. There are many parts of us that need to be “brought up to speed” and many bends and twists from the past that are hard to straighten”

    “Isn’t this just the mind complicating things? The mind likes to think it’s moving in time and progress is being made (or not), but really there is no time, it’s all now. It’s a small shift in being to see that you and I and everyone else are nothing but awareness, which is already completely here, no progress or change necessary.”

    Who are you too tell anyone what their experience is? That is really offensive. Haven’t you had enough of that in the Fellowship of Friends?

    You want to be a “true believer” in non dualism and start preaching it but you do a disservice to the information by discouraging reasonable individuals who look at the being required to be formatory and are perhaps not interested as for example myself who already has more than enough things to be opinionated about. Hopefully your unasked for opinions will receive the same treatment as those “true believers” in the church of Robert Burton.

    The reality is that if you experienced what you described and it was not just intellectual center sophistry you would not need to put it on anyone.

    You wrote
    “Isn’t this just the mind complicating things?”

    If there is no division how can you make a division. If there is no time how can there be a state of realizing it or not? How can there even be a word?
    If you wrote “there is a state where there is no time” I could accept that. When you say there is no time that’s just stupid its sophistry, (Main Entry: soph·ist·ry
    Pronunciation: ‘sä-f&-strE
    Function: noun
    1 : subtly deceptive reasoning or argumentation
    2 : SOPHISM
    Pronunciation: ‘sä-“fi-z&m
    Function: noun
    1 : an argument apparently correct in form but actually invalid; especially : such an argument used to deceive )

    you can say time is part of Maya an illusion but it is.
    Here is a good example of Sophistry

    “It’s a small shift in being to see that you and I and everyone else are nothing but awareness, which is already completely here, no progress or change necessary.”

    A small shift in being is progress or change this statement is not internally consistent. I am amazed at the lack of critical thinking and logic inherent in this approach.

    Let me say one more time in case you missed it. This does nothing for me , It did not the first time I checked it out, it has not each time I return and your own inability to say anything that does not contradict itself does not make me want to learn more.

    If it works for you that fine. The only reason I reply at all is a reaction to the tone of presenting objective knowledge which I find questionable. present it to me . It is a wrong triad you cannot force something like this on someone. There is such an incredible amount of really useful material that I am unlikely to experience in my lifetime and this is simply not high up on my list.

    130 Joseph G

    “Dear A Former Student:

    I like this, from Nisargadatta. Maybe you will too.”

    Perhaps you missed the part where I said I am not interested? I try to be positive if this is useful to others, if it somehow neutralizes the effects of the Fellowship on individuals thought process then it is good.

    To me it is not in any way useful. It does not contain anything new and it negates what are facts in my reality.

    What are my facts. When I have experiences of higher centers it includes an awareness and understanding of scale and relativity, I “see” octaves, triads and processes. What is in the system the ideas of the functions are facts. I do not seek a definition for the self but have an experience of it that is as non duality says not words. Can I be mistaken? wrong? In imagination? certainly. So what it is my own understanding and I experience no desire for more words of this kind.

    I am diabetic, I take insulin. Do you imagine it then becomes a law that everyone should take insulin? If Non-dualism is good for you use it and accept it as part of what makes up your individuality do not look to me for approval or sanction perhaps it treats a condition I don’t have.
    Try and see this is not a value Judgement I am not saying anything about the objective value of non dualism because I don’t know.. It is however a wrong triad to try and force an understanding on another.

    Meditate on a tree. See how all branches become one and connect to the roots. Each individual leaf can be described using a system of three dimensional co-ordinates x-y-z. The path from each leaf to the main trunk is unique. Some go in opposite directions there is no right direction everything depends on the relationship of the part to the whole. This is my “consciousness'” and One I am happy with. I am a part , containing parts, that is a part of a larger whole.


  163. ah la luna!
    Cy.


  164. 163

    Yes, ‘Who Knows’ that sort of energy and semantics is pretty much what’s underneath the Galleria carpet, we thank you for your honesty, so far as stuff under the silk carpet goes, along with the nuclear fallout of hundreds of consciences that Robert Burton has disintegrated by his ‘perfect smile’ and open fly…
    ________________________________________________

    Who Knows?

    Your conscience…

    Hey, and watch that “my dear” crap; it gives me the willies,
    dear.

    ____________

    l.t.y.a.


  165. 162

    Janna, hello. Nice to see your face here. Can you show your real face?

    What was it Jesus talking about here: https://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2007/07/22/the-fellowship-of-friends-discussion-part-16/#comment-4183

    What were you doing in Amsterdam?

    And if you do not like my face, know, it is just a reflection of yourself.

    People like Bruce, and the rest of you, are really nice and sweet, and it is only by accident that the words fuck, idiot, imbecile, and the rest slips out. Usually you are Angels.

    Fkyou!

    And I think if any prospective student ever comes here, they will have enough to read, and maybe my post will make them doubt in what you write so confidently.

    Regarding negative emotions, truly, believe it or not, I do not feel any negative emotions towards anyone on this blog.
    Although I have an aggressive style of writing it does not mean that I am negative.

    And deep inside, I wish you all well.


  166. 164. A former Student.
    My preceding comment did not apply to your post, but to the moonstruck tone prevalent at the moment.
    Thank you for expressing many of the I’s that have been trying to coalesce in me in relation to advaita and niggardly data. We are not in a majority in this, In fact we are in a minority it seems, well among the vociferous ones at least. Maybe a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire. Youre not alone.
    Cy.


  167. 166

    Darling :-)

    I hope you did not get a heart attack.

    As to the rest, you basically said nothing.

    I give you another chance to explain yourself.


  168. Dear Former Student,
    you said:
    “In non-dualism there is no process of becoming ready to hear the truth, no process of absorbing and making the truth ones own because it admits of no process. This to me is ridiculous.
    Can I see a plant grow, a fire burn, a wound heal?”

    – Well, can you actually see the plant grow? I can’t! I see things as they are now, sort of as snap-shots, and mind later compares, uses memory, makes conclusions and COMPOSES a process. This is what seem to be happening.
    Process is a mind-made string of recorded events from the past.
    In the now there is no process, simply what is. The Now is too fast for the mind to keep up and tie things and events into a process.
    So process is a mental concept, very useful in our lives, but nevertheless – imaginary, a mind activity so to speak.
    In the immediacy on the Now there is no process.
    There is no time either – this is another (useful) mind concept, or another (useful) illusion.

    I think you are so sensitive to this stuff because you seem to value mind activity and hold on to mind-made concepts and ideas. It’s great, and nothing is wrong with it.
    Advaita simply challenges this way of looking at things, since a lot of reality is so habitually replaced by mental concepts… In a way, we tend to think and explain our life away…


  169. 164: “I am amazed at the lack of critical thinking and logic inherent in this approach.”

    Agreed. And that’s good! RN


  170. Advertising, advaita, advantage, pumped up proselytizing preference, purporting, benefit, but baseless.
    cy.


  171. Hey, Who Knows, please say someting funny about me – I’m starting to feel left out… affectionately, RN


  172. on August 1, 2007 at 12:32 am Old Fish In The Sea

    144- Who Knows

    You said:” I had never thought of Robert as a bookkeeper or a business owner. And students as shareholders.”

    We each have different aims and joined for different reasons.

    I am only vaguely interested in trance like states that make me feel good but really don’t help anyone or go anywhere. I like those states but know how to get them with or without Robert. Presence is mine and yours and we don’t any longer need to pay someone like Robert for this service. We just have to be present.

    Presence is one aspect of being, but I am also interested in developing as a human being. For me this means developing my ability to love, to be kind and honest. I personally feel that everything we do is a reflection of our being so if I do something that does nobody, including myself, any good then I have to question my being.

    So if I over extend my credit cards, or treat people poorly, or hurt others because of my selfish desires, I would question my being. If I love an organization like the Fellowship and I misuse the property, misuse the resources, or put the entire wellbeing of the organization at risk I would question my being.

    In short, how we use what we are given, whether it be talents, money, love, respect or presence, is a reflection of our being.

    Some of us are questioning Robert’s being because he seems to misuse people and money and he continues to put the Fellowship as an organization at risk by continuing behaviors that are pretty difficult to justify from any healthy point of view.

    Now you argue that he is not a bookkeeper or an owner. Then why is he then the main decision maker on every major point regarding how the resources are spent? He is also clearly not a prophet – then why was he allowed to continue making prophesies starting in the early 70s that never came true, even though he tried on occasion to claim that they had. He is also not a musician – then why is he allowed to dictate the musical tastes at Isis. He is also not a builder or architect – then why is he allowed to encourage people not to follow building codes or laws? So what is he – what are you paying him to do? Are you paying him to create difficult situations that then that hurt young men, which cause good students to leave, and bring expensive law suits, which block wine sales and which risk the Fellowship’s existence.

    You may say that all these things that go against our feminie dominance are neccessary for us to break free. This is a childish way to work with feminine dominance. It is like the teenager that gets pregnant to prove she has the right. I believe this attitude is a buffer to seeing Robert’s lack of being.

    And then there is the question of his teaching. I would question that too but that is a subject for another post.

    So, Critical Mass made a few observations about how Robert deals with money. His observations are a part of the whole picture. If they are not true then deny them. If they are true then acknowledge them. It is time to look and see if Robert’s actions reflect the being we attribute to him.

    Best wishes to you.
    Old Fish

    For me his job is as follows:


  173. #121 Rhino

    What is the mind?


  174. Yesri Baba 121: “What is the mind?”.

    Seems to me it’s randomly arising thoughts and feelings with no real center, at least that’s the answer that pops up in this moment!

    regards, RN


  175. #164 a former student

    Hey, no problem. I probably wasn’t paying enough attention to all your posts on the subject. My own connection (so far) to Nisargadatta is just that my wife reads me passages sometimes that she likes. I passed that one along for what it’s worth because the way he speaks about mind activity rang true for me. For the record I am not a devotee of any kind at this point, to anything, so I hope you understand I was not trying to convince you one way or the other.

    Joseph G


  176. Who Knows:

    One way to think of it – we give our money freely from our hearts, not as payment, but as a true donation (albeit required). That is a separate issue from how it is received and what happens after it is given, and does not preclude the responsiblility of overview. Any Religious organization (since you consider FoF to be so) has overview of its finances by the members.

    Think about it another way – we pay our taxes willy nilly, it doesn’t matter what our attitude is to that. At the same time, it behooves us to be curious, as Old Fish terms it, about what is done with our tax money, and to try, in however small a way, to help our country (read school) to be the noble entity that we would hope for. If we receive information that opens the possibility that our leaders might be hopeless fools, or corrupt con artists, it is our responsibility to investigate and if in our best judgement we find it to be true, to try to remove them from office. It’s just common sense.


  177. on August 1, 2007 at 1:33 am Laughing Love

    Hello All.

    The occasional, irrational outbursts from these nasty people is mind boggling.

    They represent their peeps so outrageously and horribly.

    Of course it’s been said before, but it’s hilariously pathetic that they would actually think that a prospective student would take a look at their mindless nastiness and sign on up for their brand of paradise.

    Further, as has been said several times in various ways, it will forever remain a mystery as to why they even bother to participate here. They can’t resist and I guess most of us don’t really mind. Still, it’s a bid odd.

    They don’t be lookin’ like anything close to conscious thingamabobs through their fanatical posts.

    They do, however, seem to be bursting at the gills to communicate, which is a good sign, especially from members of a group which encourages a lack of self-expression.

    At this point, my best guess is that they’re extremely close to seeing the truth about their school and that the anger is pointed toward the participants of this open discussion rather than to the real instigator of the rage.

    Still, who knows? Does “Who knows” know?

    LL


  178. Who Knows, you’re awesome.
    My real face? Well, I can’t upload the picture here, but Janna is my real name… You probably know my face, don’t you.

    Amsterdam, hm-m-m… Well, what was I doing there? Well, let me think… I was doing mushrooms, hash, pot, acid, coke… Brownies too… Lots of drinking… Didn’t do heroin though… Oh yes, I also attended FOF meetings when I was sober… ;)

    Since I can’t see your face here I can’t tell whether I like it or not. I have a feeling you are one of my Russian friends, I think I even know which one, I do… But it really doesn’t matter.
    As long as you are not negative at all! It’s the style. I love your aggressive style.
    Can I ask you one thing (I’ll borrow your aggressive style if you don’t mind)
    – WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING HERE ON THIS BLOG??? And where is YOUR real name, you brave chickenshit?


  179. on August 1, 2007 at 1:58 am The Question of AIDS

    I haven’t followed the blog real closely over the past couple of months, and just wondering if there’s been any discussion about the possibility that Robert has AIDS. Is anyone concerned about it? Not concerned? Don’t care?

    I was having a discussion with some friends that other day and we were talking about the liklihood of him transmitting the disease to his entourage and to the women they sleep with (they say, “if he hasn’t already”). They were speculating that he’s been able to keep the symptoms “under control” much the way others have done with the special “cocktails” over the years, but that he’s not practicing safe sex and can still transmit the disease.

    But does he actually have AIDS, or is that just speculation? And even if it is just speculation, isn’t a reasonable issue about which to speculate given the amount of sex he’s apparently having with his male followers?

    Are people going to respond with, “Stop the feminine dominance. Do you want to work or not? This is all a non-issue. He can have as much sex as he wants, and if people get hurt by it, that is the will of the angels”?

    Or is there some genuine concern over this issue? I’d like to hear more about this — whether it’s the peanut gallerly offering their justifications, or others who know more about “the situation” and would like to share what they know.

    Men, women of the Fellowship: Do you care about your physical health? Let’s (for a moment) forget about your mental health and deal with that question.

    Does anyone care about this?


  180. Dear Critical Mass:

    Thank you for posting! Please don’t let the grumpy little Fellowship of Friends trolls who periodically rear their ugly heads get to you. Who Knows who’ll pop up next! Your voice and Purchasing Awakening’s are greatly appreciated. In time, even the grumpy little trolls can be appreciated for the service they provide…an entertaining distraction. Like that game at Chuckie Cheese’s with the trolls that pop up out of their little troll holes…then you bonk one with your mallet and they drop back down into their little troll hole… and then another one wearing a different little hat pops up out of his little troll hole over there…and you bonk ‘em…and you have fun getting out some aggression safely without harming anyone!

    I will support you in your claim about the cash payments going to the Fellowship ‘boys’. It happened to me once. Back in the mid-80’s, I was invited to join others and travel with Mr. Robert Burton in his entourage. At the time, I was on salary, living at the Academy, and ‘intimately interacting’ with Robert. Making $200 of salary per month, I had no money of my own saved up for such a trip. (Let’s not forget that getting invited to live rent free at the Academy was like getting a raise, too.)

    I don’t know if this is still the case, but sometimes these all expense paid trips to Europe were bestowed as a reward to hard working salaried individuals at Renaissance as a last minute surprise before Robert left. Presumably this was to inspire salaried followers to continue making lunatic efforts or others to like myself to get a little ‘closer’ to him. Sometimes people that Robert didn’t have sex with (like women) would be asked to go, although my impression was they were always in the minority, which goes without saying.

    Just after we visited a particular center in Europe, I was handed $1500 cash in the currency of the country where the center was located. I was told by his secretary ‘du jour’ the money was a ‘gift’ from Robert Burton. Needless to say, I didn’t ask any questions. This enabled me to travel for the rest of the trip which lasted about seven weeks. Up to that point we had traveled as a tight group, and there was no stop over to convert that much cash into the local currency. It came from the teaching donations that were ‘gleaned’ from that center. So while Robert Burton travels Europe, he’s also skimming cash from the centers, having a gay ole’ time, buying stuff, eating, drinking, and paying off his dressed up sex slaves.

    This is the conscious life Mr. Robert Burton has carved out for himself. What a deal! He spends boatloads of his followers’ money now, paying others to cater to his basic needs, as well as his every perverted whim, and his followers all agree to be paid back after death…? I agree with Old Fish In The Sea and Sharon, the fourth way is the way of the householder, which involves exercising common sense. (Let that be a lesson to you Mr Goodwin.)

    Credit card debt is Allah’s way of saying that you lack common sense or you need better health insurance.


  181. The Aztecs use to have poetry competitions and one such poet began his presentation like this:

    I’ve come Oh friends,
    with guacamaya feathers I adorn you,
    with gold I paint,
    with music and songs to the community,
    I give myself.


  182. on August 1, 2007 at 3:20 am wake up little suzy wakeup

    Many people here are talking about joining another group.

    A quiet mind is all that is necessary. There is no need to join anything. If there is support to help in understanding that this is all that is needed, then I think joining a support group would be beneficial for some people.

    After the mind settles down, then all kinds of new information pours in. That’s where inspiration comes from.

    It takes a quiet mind to access information from higher sources. I really think that it’s unnecessary to call it something other than what it is. Silence is the key to higher understanding, because without it, all we are is a bunch of I’s. Information from the Source (or God) can only be received if ones cup is empty.


  183. on August 1, 2007 at 3:54 am We Were There

    ~ 180 Janna

    Well done.


  184. I`m not in the Fellowship any more, but from my point of view, Joe Rogan is totally wrong,
    to express negative emotions is weakness.
    negative emotions are not usefull, are not noble, hurts others and oneself.

    I agree with to said the things as we think, but is not necesary to express negativity. it is fine to said our thinking but to express negativity is a very different thing.

    “to express negative emotions is weakness”


  185. I just stumbled on this and found myself tumbling down the hill past Jack & Jill; enjoy, again, I know we did then…

    403 Grassroots Protester

    Many of us inside the Fellowship of Friends are wondering these days, “What can I do?” There’s plenty we can do. The following is a long list (although not a comprehensive list) of the numerous ways we can protest what’s happening in the Fellowship of Friends:

    • When Robert Burton asks you to have sex, say “No.”
    • Express your thoughts out loud.
    • Believe the ‘I’s.
    • Express doubts about the Fellowship’s ideas.
    • Express doubts about the Fellowship of Friends.
    • Express doubts about Robert Burton.
    • Tell people that leaving the Fellowship does not invalidate everything about their time in the Fellowship.
    • Tell people that you’ve heard there is a beautiful, spiritual, rewarding existence after you leave the Fellowship of Friends.
    • Tell people that the Gods still work with them when they leave the Fellowship of Friends.
    • Tell people that the Gods worked with them before they joined the Fellowship, during their time in the Fellowship, and after they leave the Fellowship.
    • Tell people that the Gods work with people outside of the Fellowship (blasphemy, isn’t it?)
    • Tell people that Robert Burton is merely a pawn of the Gods.
    • Help people protect themselves from Robert Burton and the negative consequences of remaining in the Fellowship.
    • Criticize Robert Burton.
    • Sneak into the Theatron for Journey Forth by Day. Don’t pay.
    • Carry a bottle of wine into the theatron and enjoy it.
    • Leave the Fellowship.
    • Before you leave, encourage a friend to leave the Fellowship.
    • Dismiss any notion that protesting is “the wrong triad.”
    • Dismiss any notion that encouraging someone to leave is “the wrong triad.”
    • “Photograph” people for Fellowship-ese.
    • “Photograph” people for using the word “photograph.”

    • While driving, do everything you can to look for something interesting in the present WITHOUT thinking about the so-called lower-self, the sequence, bible keys, or anything remotely connected to Robert Burton. Try to find something interesting in the present because it is as natural as breathing to look for something interesting in the present, and because it is what you want to do, and because it makes you feel good, and because it brings you in touch with your inner nature, and with God.

    • If someone you barely know tries kissing you square on the lips, don’t let them.
    • Damn it, think for yourself.
    • Express negativity, argue with one another, and don’t apologize.

    • When Robert asks you to have sex, say “No.”

    • Go on a 5-day fast.
    • Examine your conscience without feeling guilty that you are having “morality ‘I’s.”
    • Ask yourself, “What in heaven’s name am I doing here?” Ask it out loud, but with a smile, and ask it so that many people can hear you.
    • Question authority.
    • Listen to someone who is “expressing negativity” about Robert Burton. Listen to them closely.

    • When you are at the table, please DO “share funny stories that are true, such as humorous incidents that have actually happened.” (In case you didn’t know, we’ve been asked not to.)

    • Talk with your hands.
    • Smile so that your teeth show. (In case you didn’t know, we’ve been asked not to.)
    • When someone describes a “confirmation from Influence C of the significance of the Thirty Imperishable Work ‘I’s,” please dismiss it with a hearty laugh.

    • Drive 5 mph over the speed limit on the property, and laugh at people who scold you.
    • Park in the wrong place.
    • When someone asks you for money at a Potage brunch, smile and say “no” so that people sitting at the nearby tables can hear you.
    • Sign up for a trip to Egypt, but don’t pay for it.
    • Open your windows and play a rock song full-blast on your car stereo.

    • When Robert asks you to have sex, say “No.”

    • Pull prospective students aside and ask them if they are insane.
    • Don’t eat European style (even if you’re European).
    • Sit on the Ming furniture, if you can find any that hasn’t already been sold at a loss.
    • Grab a plate of food for your wife or girlfriend at a reception.
    • Hold hands with your girlfriend or boyfriend while walking down from the road from Apollo D’oro.
    • Smooch with your girlfriend in broad daylight.
    • Smooch with your boyfriend in broad daylight.
    • When Robert asks you to have sex, say “No.”
    • Don’t wear a tie to a meeting or reception.
    • Wear a very short skirt, or wear pants.

    • If you see anyone in Robert Burton’s entourage, talk to them about it.

    • Create an anonymous hotmail.com account, and send your thoughts to the young men in Robert Burton’s entourage.
    • Create an anonymous hotmail.com account, and send your thoughts to several people on the FOF distribution list.

    • Talk openly about books that discuss uncomfortable and unwelcome topics.
    • Talk openly on topics that are not welcome.
    • Make people feel uncomfortable.
    • Want people around you to feel good.
    • Don’t believe anyone who tells you there’s something wrong with feeling good.
    • Use the word, “yeah.”
    • Use the word, “nope.”
    • When Robert asks you to have sex, say “Nope.”

    • Recognize that being honest and true to yourself is not “negativity.”
    • See that “negativity” can have positive results for yourself and others if you don’t inner consider it.
    • “Photograph” others for using the work language way too often. Ask them to express their ideas in their own words.

    • Direct a performance of a Shakespeare play at your home in Oregon House.
    • Invite Robert and Asaf to it. And Ni_k. And G_r_rd.
    • Laugh at the sequence.

    • When Robert asks you to have sex, say “No.”

    • Express compassion for anyone who is having a hard time with all of this. Don’t photograph them for self-pity.
    • Don’t dismiss depression as a sign of weakness — see it as a sign of being alive and stuck in a dysfunctional group called the Fellowship of Friends.
    • See anger and resentment as a sign of being alive and in the Fellowship. When someone expresses it, ask them what’s wrong. Ask them what you can do to help.
    • Tell people that the Fellowship is dysfunctional.
    • Tell people sincerely that Robert Burton has a serious mental illness, and that he’s delusional.
    • Tell people that you were delusional when you trusted Robert Burton.
    • Do any or all of the above, but invent some of your own protests.
    • When Robert Burton asks you to have sex, say “No.”

    ____________________________________________

    l.t.y.a.


  186. 184

    And to define another’s subjective experience with a certain set of external circumstances flowing through their ‘certain set of internal set of circumstances’, thus creating an ‘expression’ as “negative” and “negative” as “weakness” is what Hans?

    I’ am pretty fed up with the Fellowship of Friends shallow treatment of “negative emotions”, which to me are more real than what you guys called (and still call) positive emotions; particularly since it’s the ‘negative ones’ that reveal where the work is; and yes, not to forget about those positive types that buffer negativity from others with smiles and laughter; therein the laugh is also a cry… so, what’s the point here Hans?

    Categorizing emotions like Robert Burton does, is getting you nowhere and brings about a smugness that’s actually wrong work of centers; for what’s behind every emotion is what counts, not the obvious-ness of the ‘expression’ itself… It’s high spiritual ignorance to take things at face value, this is what Robert Burton has taught you guys, similar to his practicing smiling in the mirror…

    Break the mirror and stop sounding like Peter Ingle or Hans, take your pick.

    _________________

    l.t.y.a.


  187. been checking in from time to time and…..

    Dear Bass, I think what you are doing is very realistic and interesting and compassionate. Small steps are good. I may not be in complete agreement with you about all the -whatever-, but, boy— I respect how you are working thru things.
    ——————–

    Now, this is something I want to post and this is not to you, Bass, except it is in a way, because it is to all of us. From Jack Handey:

    “I think the mistake a lot of us make is thinking the state-appointed psychiatrist is our “FRIEND.”


  188. Janna ~

    You wrote ~

    “I was doing mushrooms, hash, pot, acid, coke… Brownies too… Lots of drinking… Didn’t do heroin though… Oh yes, I also attended FOF meetings when I was sober… ;)”
    ____________________________________

    Wow, Janna, I cannot believe the audacity; how could you attend the meeting ‘sober’? Attending ‘sober’, that’s probably what alerted them to your turning back into a ‘person’.

    No heroin? Hummmm… I’m glad you didn’t, I like those birds, although I am partial to Flamingos…

    And coke? Why not pepsi; I mean, live a little girl.
    _______________________________________

    Word!


  189. “who knows”

    You said that your teacher did not mention about writing on the blog. And by this you feel free to express yourself in your way here on the blog.

    TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT
    Well as a fellow human – I have to tell you that if you want to evolve in a what you think to be a school you have to take it serious, otherwise you are wasting your time and better leave it.

    100%
    Than you will be sincere and that is the only solid basis to grow from. If you stay – do it for a 100% – if you leave and go your own path than also do it for 100%.

    A PART IN YOU
    I am sure that there is a part in you that knows that Robert Burton doesn’t appreciate what you are writing down here on the blog. But still you write, and condemn people who see it in a way as their 3th line of work to give warning to searching souls out there who are interest in the 4th way.

    ASK YOUR TEACHER WHEN IN DOUBT
    So, it would be good to ask your teacher or someone who is considered an ‘older student’ what he thinks about it.

    YOU CAN HAVE THE LAST WORD
    Me for my part will allow you the last word in this dialog. Because I said all there is to be said to you. You first must become ‘clean’ with your ‘school’ before you will be able to speak in their defence.

    Goodbye and farewell,

    Peter


  190. Elena, thank you for your remarks at 17/140. IMO they show transformation, understanding, real goodness. And Old Fish in the sea, at 17/174, idem ditto.

    ——————–

    Life Person, I think you are right in what you say at 17/145, down to every single word. I have attempted to answer a difficult question by referring to ISOTM. You have tried to put this answer in a proper scale, arguing that although the answer isn’t necessarily wrong in itself, it just may not be too useful for fof-members who have been brainwashed for years with iron propaganda veiled behind velvet O.-quotes.

    On an aside, let me say here how that post 17/108 originated, because it explains why I focused on O. I was thinking, not without some resentment, how awful it is that fof dogma relied for so long on cherry-picking ‘suitable’ quotes from O’s works and pushing them to extremes; I said to myself: ‘it just can’t be that O. would only have spoken about the priceless value of schools and about giving up will and other such things, and not have given any defenses against people who are likely to misuse that; it’s just not fair, it’s not like O; there must be an answer to this in his books.’ And the very moment I thought that, the answer (or better said, the fragment of understanding at the root of the answer) popped in my mind, which was afterwards formulated in words at 17/108. (And it’s been almost 5 years since I last read ISOTM.) Here’s another of these defenses [just between you and me :) and not addressed to current-fofers], which by the way also vindicates your eulogy of self-trust:

    “Above all, avoid those towers built in order to preserve the mysteries and to make an ascent to Heaven by stone stairways. And remember that as soon as men build such a tower they begin to dispute about the summit. The Path is in yourself, and Truth is in yourself and Mystery is in yourself. ” (Symbolism of the Tarot)

    As for bewaring of extremes:

    “Q. Is the full realization that we cannot ‘do’ anything already a long step on the way to ‘doing’?

    A. Sometimes the step is too long, because Every Idea Prolonged Too Far Becomes Its Own Opposite. So if you persuade yourself too seriously that you can do nothing, you will find that you really can do nothing. It is a question of relativity. As I said, not being able to ‘do’ refers to people without any possibility of school-work. ” (The Fourth Way)

    ——————————-

    A former student, thank you for your comments at 17/152.

    Here’s a toast – to you and all sincere seekers of truth on this blog:

    “The real community of man, in the midst of all the self-contradictory simulacra of community, is the community of those who seek the truth, of the potential knowers, that is, in principle, of all men to the extent they desire to know. But in fact this includes only a few, the true friends, as Plato was to Aristotle at the very moment they were disagreeing about the nature of the good. Their common concern for the good linked them; their disagreement about it proved they needed one another to understand it. They were absolutely one soul as they looked at the problem. This, according to Plato, is the only real friendship, the only real common good.” (Allan Bloom)

    Cheers!


  191. 184 Hans,

    Screaming at the pig whose gotten into the corn is not a negative emotion. If we agree on that, we agree on your take on negative emotions.

    The problem in the fellowship is that students are being taught to let the pig eat from their plate and think it is an angel.


  192. on August 1, 2007 at 2:25 pm Bass Ackwards

    Howdy All,

    Flying Free, Rhino Neal, A Former Student and KA.

    I appreciate the little thread that has developed over Fourth Way into Advaita. I don’t have any opposite “I’s” to offer about this small discussion. I only know where I am at now and what seems to be helping me and my Friends. I remember how Mr. O. would describe why one would make efforts to wake up, either by being repelled by who one is, or attracted to what one could become. Taken on the level of waking up to the imaginary aspects of the School, the Teacher, etc…, the blog provides the repellant, Advaita the solution (for me, but maybe for others, too?).

    So, my current approach to my fellow students is to offer them Advaita in the context of touching that part of them that is truly hungry for pure undiluted Consciousness, particularly if they are unwilling to look at the Blog. My own understanding jumped exponentially from reading Nisargadatta. After all, N. pointedly reveals what Walt, Rumi, Hafiz, the Upanishads, etc… point to, don’t you think? And what a relief! So opening that door need not be a shocking revelation, even to a firm Fellowshipper. N. affirms yet corrects RB, showing the shallowness of many of our untested yet silently absorbed myths and gobbledy gook. Then maybe, just maybe, some of my Friends who are not yet crystallized in RB’s brand of “Fourth Way” Bhakti can find a way out of this big misunderstanding and even be ready to see RB’s (shadow) Lower Self Blog side for what it is? If they are open to it? The point more is how to get free of the limitations of the FOF mentality while still immersed in it.

    Actually understanding Advaita could be another process entirely. I realize that. The transition is definitely an individual process. At first I did the “mapping” thing of trying to align N.’s words to Fourth Way concepts and understandings I already had. Now, I understand that to have been a stage in absorption. I am currently able to read N. without trying to “map”. This also is a relief. Surely there is more to come? How can it not be so? I freely admit myself to be, once again, a beginner.

    Friends, I understand my time within the FOF to be limited, I know that, so I consider these efforts of mine to be my loving, parting shots to dear Friends. My goodbye kisses. I understand the Fear, the Love and the Misinformation that keeps them in their places here. I would do what I can, while I can. That is all.
    Love,
    Bass


  193. Bass, I believe you are on the right track. Our understanding is constantly changing.Actually , we do not really have a choice in that so it’s better not to resist.You will take what was useful from FOf as we all do and leave behind what was limiting.And everyone has to do it in their own sweet time.


  194. Bass, funny how I did exactly the same first – tried to connect 4th way and N. (and other non-dual authors) words, and after a while system just “got abandoned” all by itself. As if one is trying to hold on to old familiar ropes before it’s obvious that one doesn’t need them anymore and able to simply let go…

    I am glad you’re talking about these ideas to your friends.
    Good luck to you!


  195. 192 BA: Thanks for clarifying – sounds great! x RN


  196. Dear A former student,
    you wrote;
    “This is my “consciousness’” and One I am happy with. I am a part , containing parts, that is a part of a larger whole.”

    “We are accustomed to thinking of bodies as having consciousness whereas it is consciousness which has bodies” – Nisargadatta

    The notion of being someone who owns consciousness is at the root of RB’s teaching and the root cause of much that is false in RB and consequently false in the FOF. It is the dead end that many eventually encounter and a simple explanation as to why no one in FOF actually awakens.
    “I” can “do” tricky things with awareness until the cows come home, the abiding result though will always be merely that the cows make it home.
    Surely, believing we are a part when we are in fact the whole is what keeps us apart ?

    Much Love,
    Ryan.


  197. I am that not the brightest bulb in the package. So, I will continue with Gurdjieff until I too “grasp the essense” of the 4th way.

    I had a health problem once and instead of going to the doctor (broke), I went to a “esoteric book shop” for direction.

    Thumbing through some “health” books I found “Ayurveda”. I purchased the book and began studying “Ayurveda”. I found very interesting knowledge about Hindu teachings. They explained in English as much as possible but kept the essential Sanskrit words I guess to not delude the mind.

    I also took a course in “Ayurveda” for the sole purpose of eventually growing medicinal herbs. As I read “Ayurveda” I also connected in my “mind” the interconnectedness of the Fourth Way with the spiritual aspects of Hindu philosophy.

    I finally decided that I would keep the spiritual aspects of the Fourth Way and the material healing aspects of “Ayurveda”
    I guess it’s “different strokes for different folks”.


  198. Dear Whalerider,
    Howdy and thanks for your post #90

    “Does not the raindrop require a speck of dust first…to transmigrate from spirit to form?”

    Spirit arises in form and interacts with itself e.g. “You” and “I”. “You” and “I” are not the seemingly seperate, isolated manifestations.

    “Being somebody is being asleep”- Nisargadatta

    Much Love,
    Ryan.


  199. on 01 Aug 2007 at 5:15 pm
    170 Janna wrote
    “So process is a mental concept, very useful in our lives, but nevertheless – imaginary, a mind activity so to speak.
    In the immediacy on the Now there is no process.
    There is no time either – this is another (useful) mind concept, or another (useful) illusion.”

    I am apparantly not being heard well, need I be clearer?
    If this serves you well that is fine. I suggest you learn to moderate your language. I do not accept you as a man #7 with objective knowledge. I find it offensive that you question my right to have my own understanding.

    on 01 Aug 2007 at 1:10 am1
    77 Joseph G wrote
    “#164 a former student

    Hey, no problem. I probably wasn’t paying enough attention to all your posts on the subject.”

    And I was simply in the midst of a group of I’s reacting to post’s about non-duality. But truthfully I don’t even enjoy reading the stuff. There is more in the sonnets or Walt Whitman for me than in non-dualism.

    192 Bass Ackwards

    “Actually understanding Advaita could be another process entirely. I realize that. The transition is definitely an individual process. At first I did the “mapping” thing of trying to align N.’s words to Fourth Way concepts and understandings I already had. Now, I understand that to have been a stage in absorption. I am currently able to read N. without trying to “map”. This also is a relief. Surely there is more to come? How can it not be so? I freely admit myself to be, once again, a beginner.”

    My prejudice, to me this makes sense. As an exercise remove the concepts of time and process from this post and see what is left.

    196 Ryan O’Poo wrote
    “The notion of being someone who owns consciousness is at the root of RB’s teaching and the root cause of much that is false in RB and consequently false in the FOF. It is the dead end that many eventually encounter and a simple explanation as to why no one in FOF actually awakens.”

    I am apparantly not being heard well, need I be clearer?
    If this serves you well that is fine. I suggest you learn to moderate your language. I do not accept you as a man #7 with objective knowledge. I find it offensive that you question my right to have my own understanding.

    Ryan I think this is poorly written. An edited form

    “I think the notion of being someone who owns consciousness is at the root of how Fellowship members interprett RB’s teaching. I believe it is the root cause of much that is false in RB and consequently false in the FOF. I see it as the dead end that many eventually encounter and a simple explanation as to why no one in FOF actually awakens.”

    If you observe the difference. The changed language takes ownership and yet does not present the opinion as fact. Basically changing the post from a lie to the truth.

    I may refain from addressing this subject further ( or not) because to me it makes no sense. Time, space, matter, relationship all exist and I am happy with that.
    The law of 7 and law of three exist for me and have meaning for me.
    If you spent however many years in The Fellowship and failed to learn the basic’s of world creation and maintenance it is just one more example of what happens when ideas like self remembering are taken out of context.

    Gurdjieff wrote that the Enneagram was a universal symbol and that if two individuals from different traditions even if they did not speak the same language compared their understanding of the enneagram and proceeses they would realize whose knowledge was greater.

    Unfortunatly thus far my experience of Former and currant Fellowship members in relation to understanding Laws and Processesis is a big HUH? DUH? Wha?
    To me Non-dualism which as Janna presents it, as it appears in quotes is a dead end a denial of process and time and for me useless material.


  200. A heavily edited but still substantial interprettation of Walt Whitman’s “Song of the Open Road”
    I gather those who have been in the Fellowship more recently , my own departure was over 25 years ago , my have a conditioned response. I have been blessed it seems with not being in the fellowship of Friends and have been able to enjoy this from my own understanding.

    Song of the open road

    AFOOT and light-hearted,
    I take to the open road,
    Henceforth I ask not good-fortune—
    I myself am good fortune;
    The earth—that is sufficient;
    I do not want the constellations any nearer;
    I know they are very well where they are;
    I know they suffice for those who belong to them. 10

    You road I enter upon and look around! I believe you are not all that is here; 15
    I believe that much unseen is also here.

    Here the profound lesson of reception, neither preference or denial;
    You air that serves me with breath to speak!
    You light that wraps me and all things in delicate equable showers!
    I think you are latent with unseen existences—you are so dear to me.

    From this hour, freedom!
    From this hour I ordain myself loos’d of limits and imaginary lines,
    Going where I list, my own master, total and absolute, 55
    Listening to others, and considering well what they say,
    Pausing, searching, receiving, contemplating,
    Gently, but with undeniable will, divesting myself of the holds that would hold me.

    I inhale great draughts of space;
    I am larger, better than I thought;
    I did not know I held so much goodness.

    Whoever denies me, it shall not trouble me;
    Whoever accepts me, he or she shall be blessed, and shall bless me.

    Here is the test of wisdom;
    Wisdom is not finally tested in schools;
    Wisdom cannot be pass’d from one having it, to another not having it;
    Wisdom is of the Soul, is not susceptible of proof, is its own proof, 80
    Is the certainty of the reality and immortality of things, and the excellence of things;
    Something there is in the float of the sight of things that provokes it out of the Soul.

    Now I reëxamine philosophies and religions,
    They may prove well in lecture-rooms, yet not prove at all under the spacious clouds, and along the landscape and flowing currents. 85

    Here is the efflux of the Soul; 95
    These yearnings, why are they? These thoughts in the darkness, why are they?

    Why are there trees I never walk under, but large and melodious thoughts descend upon me? (I think they hang there winter and summer on those trees, and always drop fruit as I pass;)
    The efflux of the Soul is happiness—here is happiness;
    I think it pervades the open air, waiting at all times;
    Now it flows unto us—we are rightly charged.

    Allons! whoever you are, come travel with me! 115
    Traveling with me, you find what never tires.

    The earth never tires;
    The earth is rude, silent, incomprehensible at first—Nature is rude and incomprehensible at first;
    Be not discouraged—keep on—there are divine things, well envelop’d;
    I swear to you there are divine things more beautiful than words can tell. 120

    Allons! we must not stop here!
    However sweet these laid-up stores—however convenient this dwelling, we cannot remain here;

    I and mine do not convince by arguments, similes, rhymes;
    We convince by our presence. 140

    Listen! I will be honest with you;
    I do not offer the old smooth prizes, but offer rough new prizes;
    These are the days that must happen to you:

    What beckonings of love you receive, you shall only answer with passionate kisses of parting, You shall not allow the hold of those who spread their reach’d hands toward you.

    Allons! to that which is endless, as it was beginningless,
    To conceive no time, however distant, but what you may reach it and pass it,
    To look up or down no road but it stretches and waits for you—
    To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,

    The Soul travels;
    The body does not travel as much as the soul; 185
    The body has just as great a work as the soul,

    All religion, all solid things, arts, governments,
    —all that was or is apparent upon this globe or any globe, falls into niches and corners before the procession of Souls along the grand roads of the universe.

    Forever alive, forever forward, 190
    But I know that they go toward the best—
    toward something great.

    Allons! whoever you are! come forth! 195
    You must not stay sleeping and dallying there in the house,
    Allons! out of the dark confinement!
    It is useless to protest—I know all, and expose it.

    Have the past struggles succeeded?
    What has succeeded? yourself? your nation? nature? 215
    Now understand me well—It is provided in the essence of things, that from any fruition of success, no matter what, shall come forth something to make a greater struggle necessary.

    Allons! the road is before us! 220
    It is safe—I have tried it—my own feet have tried it well.
    Allons! be not detain’d!
    Mon enfant! I give you my hand!
    I give you my love, more precious than money,
    I give you myself, before preaching or law;
    Will you give me yourself? will you come travel with me? 230


  201. To anyone who might be interested in posting to the blog, but who feels they need to participate in the discussion threads about various topics — whether it’s advaita, gurdjieff, burton, or the just “the insanity of it all”:

    Although we’re trying to keep the blog “Fellowship-related”, feel free to post away on any topic that seemingly has nothing to do with all of the debate. Non-sequiturs are completely welcome — especially if it’s a personal story about Robert Burton and the Fellowship. Also, if you have a story that you think has already been said many times over, say it anyway. We’ll read it, and it will give all of us a completely different perspective because it came from you and not someone else.

    If the debate doesn’t interest you, we encourage you to ignore it, and post away. We can have many threads going at once. In fact, we do have many threads going at once!

    Looking forward to hearing from you, whoever you are.

    (This was a Public Service Announcement.)


  202. Thanks, Ryan (196), for posting the Nisargadatta quote: “We are accustomed to thinking of bodies as having consciousness whereas it is consciousness which has bodies.” That pretty much says it all. RN


  203. Ryan, #198:

    “The notion of being someone who owns consciousness is at the root of RB’s teaching and the root cause of much that is false in RB and consequently false in the FOF. ”

    Yes, a defining moment for me was the realization that the part of me that so desperately wanted to “wake up” was the part that had the least chance of doing it, and would forever stand in my own way — the motivations are all wrong, there’s a sub-surface layer of wanting to be admired and special. Most importantly, the very notion of “work” and “struggle” refer to some imaginary “me” in a non-existent future — the antithesis of being in the moment. It took a major psychological smackdown to see this though, dissolving, breaking apart, free-falling with some rather disastrous consequences, but ultimately the crack of the shell that returned me to myself and relative sanity.

    Now I just try to take things simply. I am who I am, and try to accept that. The perception that I am a real person sitting here right now is much truer than theories that “I am not real.” I feel real and the fact of my body and feelings trumps any arguments to the contrary. If this upsets anyone’s belief systems, sorry, but I’m not sorry. And to think I had to go through years of being in a “school” then come out the other end to reach this rather sane point. Yikes!


  204. 181 The question of aids

    I have no idea if Robert has AIDS. I have heard that in Yuba County there is a cluster of people who are HIV positive in the Oregon House area. I would recommend all sexually active persons get tested and insist their partners get tested. You can get a free anonymous test in various locations. Sierra College is one. You can probably get more info from Google. Then you can post your results here anonymously. In the meantime, take precautions.


  205. Dear Ryan:

    Thanks for your post. I think the attraction for some Followers of the Fellowship to non-duality is like the social phenomena of some people within the Jewish faith being attracted to Buddhism. “JewBu’s” I’ve heard them called. Two ways of being in the world delightfully complimenting each other when one has been immersed for too long in either way.

    I find that non-duality is attractive and liberating for its transcendent qualities; it speaks more objectively to our actual state on the scale of the universe: we are dead longer than we are alive! One’s alchemy doesn’t matter on that scale! Our more permanent state is merged into the cosmic ocean…and…for a brief time, we exist as vapor, then a droplet…in the cycle back to the ocean source. The circle or cycle is the perfect symbol for unity or wholeness.

    It’s a wonderful sentiment that we are all one spirit interacting with itself. How could we choose to harm another spirit if we were living from spirit? For me, actual experiences of this fact are what I call the fourth state of consciousness. So ultimately, objectively, there is no duality. We are not separate; we are all one as the Absolute is All and Everything.

    It sounds a bit like the way of the Yogi to me; the seeker striving to keep his awareness detached from his body and focused solely upon more objective reality or the ‘highest’ truth, transcending the mundane and ever-changing world of the ego and the senses.

    You will notice that non-duality ‘irks’ others. Why would non-duality be so polarizing if its intent is to unify? It begs the question, is that a reality you can live day by day in the diverse world of people? Is it the head becoming too detached from the body that inspires Scott to quote Whitman, who “Sings His Body Electric”?

    IMO for a person struggling in the recovery process from addiction, those with a lack of healthy self-respect or lack of healthy ego boundaries, the transcendent qualities and dissolution of ‘self’ inherent in non-duality would seem frightening and problematic, because that transcendence is what they long for in the drug of choice. The drug provides a short cut to nirvana where the self and time doesn’t exist. In their drug induced ‘stupor’ they feel merged in that great cosmic ocean, more than likely in compensation for what they lacked in their family experience. And since they also lack the being to create that state for themselves independent of the drug, the drug wears off and paradise is lost. Chasing the feeling of transcendence does great damage in the addict’s life and cheats them of being in the present. They are taught to be wary of it. That’s why in the stages of recovery, it is important for addicts to get grounded in their bodies and to learn self-respect through work on empowering themselves day by day.

    So IMO the philosophy of non-duality would be a conflict for someone completing the 12 step process of recovery.

    Anyway, I enjoy the discussion. More of you would be appreciated.

    Love,
    WR


  206. Innernaut wrote in #206: “Now I just try to take things simply. I am who I am, and try to accept that.”

    Something else related to this is that it’s hard to accept “where we are” and “what we are doing” at any given moment, as well as “who were are” There’s this constant, nagging thought that, “Perhaps I should be somewhere else, doing something else. Maybe I shouldn’t be here.”

    We’re constantly second-guessing ourselves… and this fits right in to the idea of the “lower self” that is being promoted so heavily in the FoF, and many other related concepts such as the king of clubs and so on — an idea that we should “watch out” for anything we’re thinking, feeling, or doing.

    But it’s precisely this second-guessing that keeps us from being in the present, enjoying our lives, and appreciating what we are experiencing right now.

    “For all the day our eyes view things unrespected.”

    Miles Barth, (who was called Miles “Brighton” as a member of the Fellowship over 20 years ago), talked about this idea in one of the last meetings that he led. He said as long as we believe that we “should” be somewhere else, we can’t be present. He said that it’s one of the most important ideas to remember as long as we have a goal to be present.

    Now, having said that, it could very well be that “where we are” is running full-speed for the exit. We can be present to that as well, not doubt it, not disbelieve it, not fear it.


  207. 2b, #209:

    “Something else related to this is that it’s hard to accept “where we are” and “what we are doing” at any given moment, as well as “who were are” There’s this constant, nagging thought that, “Perhaps I should be somewhere else, doing something else. Maybe I shouldn’t be here.””

    I think it was John Lennon that said, “Life is what happens when we’re making other plans.”


  208. Hello Friends.
    Long before I discovered the teachings of G, I was visiting a friend who I respected very much partly due to his being a very knowledgeable old jewish man who was the head of Unicef for his corner of the world.
    On his wall there was a picture of a man which impressed me very much because of the expression in the eyes which to me seemed to have great compassion. Here I thought at the time is someone who has suffered deeply and knows about suffering, his eyes seemed to shine with deep compassion and understanding.
    I wondered who it could be? that my friend who I respected very highly, respected so much as to have his picture on his wall, but didnt get round to asking him.
    I travelled further and lost contact with my friend.
    Ten years passed……then one day I opened a book by a man called Gurdjieff and there was that man from so long ago I could have kicked myself when I thought how it might have been possible to have discovered him much earlier. Cest la vie!
    However the Fellowship of Friends I found had very little to do with this mans teaching and I found out far more about his REAL teaching before joining it and after leaving it.

    Gurdjieff said
    “the hardest trial in life is the inability to alleviate the sufferings of others. What makes it worse is that it never serves a usefull purpose – not being experienced for a proper aim “.

    One of his books is entitled “Life is real only then when I am.”
    Ltya. Cy.


  209. 181

    Like so much of the ‘Mad Hatter’ going on’s at ISIS Robert Burton has not been forced by law (as the obvious occult sexual predator he his) to have such tests made for the lawful interests of the infra-sexed church, the Fellowship of Friends)…

    Years ago someone asked Robert Burton ~ “Robert do you have AIDS?”

    Robert Earl Burton, the second conscious Christ, answered ~

    “If I do, I don’t want to know.”

    _________________________

    According to Han’s ‘idea’ of not expressing negativity, Robert Burton need not do anything he doesn’t want to do, especially if it means creating negative responses from a conscious being or those wing-seekers whose sex centers are glued thereon…

    _________________________

    Beyond words my friends, way beyond….

    l.t.y.a.


  210. on August 1, 2007 at 11:52 pm wake up little suzy wakeup

    #181

    I actually did hear that Robert was HIV positive but both people that told me are now deceased. And I don’t think hearing it second hand is enough to go spreading the word around. However, if I were in the Fellowship I would certainly go get tested.


  211. on August 1, 2007 at 11:53 pm Critical Mass

    Yes, the bistro (La Cucina) burnt down, no subterfuge there, it was probably caused by a cappuccino machine. The FOF received the insurance money, which just got swallowed up. Then 2006 saw the bistro fundraising. I can’t remember how much money was raised, but it was substantial, and a student was on salary specifically for the fundraising, and now she is fundraising for Robert’s personal funds. But then the FOF failed to meet the milestones dictated by the county, so the county started playing hardball and the FOF had to pay a $35000 fine. So the bistro project was abandoned.

    I remember Robert announcing that Asaf was going to stay at Isis to teach and host events when Robert went to Egypt in Fall 2006. Asaf was beaming proudly. Then Robert announced that the reason Asaf was staying on at Isis was because the FOF needed to raise the extra funds for the county fine, and of course the events bring in money. You should have seen Asaf’s face.
    So the theatron wasn’t usable. Now there are further fundraisers for a replacement stage for the theatron, one that will meet county standards. The proposed ballet is going to be held at the tennis courts next to the burnt out bistro instead. The FOF will surely cut corners with the legal requirements, so the county may as well have someone on hand for the first night of the tennis court ballet—there could be good money in it for the county. There was a recent email from Wayne Mott, an attempt at glasnost, that selectively detailed the history of the theatron project, reproduced below:-
    (c) Wayne Mott 2007
    After many years of work by a dedicated team of experts and non-experts alike, the Theatron has re-entered the construction phase that will bring it to its completion. The following is a short story of that process.

    Back in January of 2005 we received a Conditional Use Permit from Yuba County for our Theatron. Since then we have been going through a process, stated simply, of creating a set of plans, having them approved and inspecting/testing the existing structure. The completion of this process would then allow us to continue with construction and finish what we had started in 2001.

    In April of 2005 we submitted our first and admittedly not very complete set of plans. We followed that with a more complete set, Revision 1, by the end of May that same year. This was really the beginning of a learning process that kept us scrambling for the next couple of years. With the help of building code analysts we learned about how to deal with the many elements that would help us finish the project.

    By February 2006 we were ready with Revision 2 of the plans, more or less. We were sure that there would be a lot more work to do but we began to hire the necessary help. We hired an engineer to design the waste system for the bathrooms. We then hired the same lighting engineer that did the design for the Sleep Train Amphitheater in Marysville with all its emergency lighting and backup systems, and also a fire system engineer for the hydrants and under stage sprinkler system. All of this was done to prepare Revision 3 which we submitted on June 30th 2006.

    Our code analysts came and went as well as the staff at the Yuba County Community Development Department. As most of the staff that we had worked with moved on to neighboring counties we hired the person that we had worked with at the building department as our last code analyst. He knew the project well and was a great help in finishing off the last details.

    After a few of weeks of review and minor corrections we finally received our approved set of plans, 50 pages of architectural, engineering, electrical, fire, handicapped access, site plans, indexes, etc… And in another week we had our building permit.

    This allowed us to move to the next phase in the process. We had to verify that what was built was the same as what was indicated on the approved set of plans. After having our engineers submit an inspection proposal to the county, we began a program of testing. The independent testing company examined a random sampling of exposed footings and soil conditions. They also used a radar scanning technique and core drilling of the walls and footings to verify the reinforcing steel. After this was done a report from the independent testing company and our engineers was sent to and approved by the Yuba County Building Department. That brings us to where we are now.

    The first part of the new construction will be to rebuild the stage in a waterproofed concrete which will then have a wooden surface constructed on top. The stage was the only major part of what we had constructed which was open to question. The weathering was already beginning to show on the existing wood structure. It was designed before the project took on the dimension that it has today. We had the possibility of re-building parts of the stage that needed replacing with a different kind of wood but decided unanimously that a concrete structure was more in keeping with the rest of the Theatron and would better serve future generations.


  212. on August 1, 2007 at 11:56 pm Critical Mass

    The orgies, with viagra, go back four or five years ago at least. Robert was very grateful to C Influence that they had given him three Russians who would have sex with him every Sunday evening. Robert said that it was the highlight of his week, and he looked forward to it all week.


  213. on August 1, 2007 at 11:56 pm Critical Mass

    When Adriana D died suddenly at the Mad Hatter, Robert commented that she had been dancing to jazz, “which we have been told not to do, so C Influence cut her down just like that.”


  214. on August 2, 2007 at 12:00 am Critical Mass

    Here’s August!


  215. 204

    Yes, and it (not an it) has more than just meat bodies.


  216. 215/Critical Mass

    When Adriana D died suddenly at the Mad Hatter, Robert commented that she had been dancing to jazz, “which we have been told not to do, so C Influence cut her down just like that.”

    This is exactly like the claim that Raymond Kennedy’s death in 1980 was caused by his disobeying the swimming exercise. Deliberate fear induction to increase obedience.


  217. Critical Mass, #215:

    “When Adriana D died suddenly at the Mad Hatter, Robert commented that she had been dancing to jazz, “which we have been told not to do, so C Influence cut her down just like that.””

    What an absolutely clueless dork.


  218. #219:

    “What an absolutely clueless dork.”

    Robert, that is, not Adriana.


  219. Thanks 2b and Innernaut – I really enjoyed your posts…

    On a different note (Critical Mass) – being Russian myself it slightly saddens me to see which role Russians played in the school… A “special” role. Most Robert’s sex toys are Russians.
    Oh well. But, hey, if you ask an average American around here what do they know about Russians they’ll likely mention mail-order brides, Russian mafia, Brighton Beach and Russian prostitutes… It is what it is…


  220. on August 2, 2007 at 1:55 am Frequently Asked Questions

    The latest shocking changes to the Fellowship of Friends website — part of the latest public relations efforts. The following is from the FAQ page:

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Spiritual teachings have taught followers to “be in the moment” and to “be present” from the dawn of history. What is different about your approach? Why should I join the Fellowship of Friends?

    If you don’t join the Fellowship of Friends, you will languish in the fires of hell throughout all eternity, and lose all possibilities of gaining your immortal soul if you pass up this one opportunity that you are being offered right now. In all of the vast world, the Fellowship of Friends is the only way for you to avoid damnation. Don’t wait too long to make your decision.

    What is that opportunity? Can you describe it?

    In the Fellowship of Friends, you have the opportunity give a large portion of your money to Robert Burton to suit his whims, and to feed his selfish desires. He will use the money to travel the world over while “servicing” his entourage of young men. You too can be one of those men — if Robert Burton chooses you to be one, and if you agree to it. If not, you will have the satisfaction of knowing your money is going to a good cause — helping Robert Burton experience the pleasure that he seeks, and helping him maintain control over his followers, you included.

    So, how much money do I need to pay as a member of the Fellowship of Friends?

    Remember that payment is a principle. You cannot get something for nothing. And the friction you receive from paying more than you can reasonably afford is something you can use for your inner work.

    But that doesn’t answer my question. How much money have you determined is enough friction?

    Ok, ok. To join, one pays a tithe of 10% of your gross monthly income. Special donations are also requested — well, actually we don’t “request them”, we require them — to help fund various (ahem) “projects” at Isis and abroad. Different payment categories, such as parent with child, unemployed, retired, university student etc., are provided to help accommodate a member’s financial circumstances — in other words, being broke with no retirement nest-egg due to years of contributing to the Fellowship without the help of the appropriate income to pay for those contributions. Because the Fellowship of Friends is recognized by the state and federal governments as a non-profit religious organization, all membership donations are tax deductible in the U.S. This allows the Fellowship of Friends to sponge off the state and federal governments to fund the various (ahem) “projects” mentioned above.

    What are those “projects”?

    You will learn more later. You see, you must decide… Do you want to work or not?

    The project is that I must decide whether I “want to work or not”?

    No, that’s not what I meant. I’m basically just evading your question.

    Once I join the Fellowship of Friends, can I leave?

    Yes, you can leave. But if you leave, you will suffer a fate that is worse than death. You will languish in the fires of hell throughout all eternity, and lose all possibilities of gaining your immortal soul — and the eternal hellfires will be twice as hot for you if you join and then leave… even worse than Adolf Hitler. By the way, just remember that Robert Burton is nothing at all like Adolf Hitler. And there is no “group think” here similar to the Nazi Germany. No comparison whatsoever. We don’t kill people here or start wars. Chill out. Yes, Nazi Germany was very much like a cult that went out of control (see the book, “Morning of the Magicians”), but don’t start comparing us, all right?

    What do you mean that “the eternal hellfires will be twice as hot if you join and then leave”?

    That’s just how it works.

    So all other groups are wrong or mistaken?

    We are not making a statement against any other way or group. But let’s face it; they will waste your precious time, and you will languish in the fires of hell throughout all eternity, and lose all possibilities of gaining your immortal soul if you pass up this one opportunity that you are being offered right now to join the Fellowship of Friends, and instead join one of those other groups, and especially if you don’t join any group at all. Because you see, joining is good. Groups are good. Not as good as this group, though. In all of the vast world, the Fellowship of Friends is the only way for you to avoid damnation. Don’t wait too long to make your decision. So rather than say that all other groups are wrong, we would say that you are just a complete idiot if you suggest they are right.

    The simplest way, of course, to determine whether a group or discipline is giving you something is to measure the results. Do they give you the opportunity to be exploited for your money and to be sexually abused? Do they focus on ideas connected to feminine dominance such as the development of conscience, critical thinking, and kindness and compassion? Here in the Fellowship, you will avoid such nonsense.

    I am glad that you speak about measuring results. I want to understand what I am doing.

    This is the only way to work. Practical work on awakening cannot be based on faith. Ideas are presented so that we can pretend that we verify for ourselves what is being said, and so that we can pretend for others that we are awake and working on ourselves. Pretentiousness is very important. Appearing to be conscious to fellow members is the key.

    You describe imagination as a negative thing. What about creative imagination? All artists need to visualize in order to create. Is this work opposed to artistic creation?

    Any artist or craftsman would agree that creative labor requires concentration, discipline, and dedication to produce something of beauty or utility. The effort to be present only enhances true creative attempts to produce anything of lasting quality and beauty. When we speak about imagination, we are speaking about the mindless chain of thoughts that incessantly occupy space within our internal world — such as the imagination that Robert Burton is not sexually abusing his followers, or the imagination that members of the Fellowship of Friends are the only people on a planet of over 7 billion people who are living righteous lives. We are not even aware of the extent to which this imagination comprises our lives until we begin to make efforts to be present and realize that this is all a sham. Presence is a light that reveals and dispels darkness. Of course, here in the Fellowship of Friends, we don’t really practice these efforts. We just act as though we do.

    You speak about making the proper efforts. If you tell me what they are, can I do them myself, or with my friends and colleagues? In other words, can I walk around acting like I’m making efforts by using the work language just as you do in the Fellowship?

    Imagination (such as the belief that Robert Burton is not sexually abusing his followers, and that the Fellowship of Friends is the only legitimate spiritual school on the Earth) is a much more serious foe than many of us realize. It is not simply that we tend to dream and like our dreams—there is actually something inside of us that actively resists the effort to be present to one’s own life and realize just how much we are getting screwed by paying our money to the Fellowship of Friends. It is also not a question of acquiring more knowledge. There are texts, both ancient and contemporary, that offer precise information about awakening and how gurus manipulate others for personal power, wealth, and personal gratification and selfish desires. What is lacking is both an understanding of how to use knowledge precisely and the proper environment in which to apply it. One must be shown what to do, and then one must be reminded numerous times — and sometimes those reminders come from old friends who have gone through the same horrifying nonsense.

    How will I know when it is time to join?

    Right now is always the right time. Spend your money now. Write that check. If you die a half hour before writing that check, you’re screwed. So act now. Keep receipts, though.

    But how can I know if your spiritual teacher is enlightened?

    By our standards, we’ll know a teacher is awake if he/she doesn’t give a damn what any of us think, and manipulates his followers for his own personal sexual satisfaction and petty desires.

    You keep referring to “effort”. What kind of effort do you mean?

    The most important efforts are to act like you are making efforts, to speak the work language in front of other students, and to avoid any criticism of Robert Burton.

    It all sounds too insane. I just don’t think I can do it.

    It is insane. Do not believe anyone who tells you otherwise. However, the more we realize the extent and implications of our sleep, the less we think in these terms. A drowning man who is thrown a lifesaver does not consider the effort of grabbing hold of it as too difficult. He will be glad to have sex with Robert Burton rather than sink to the bottom of the ocean.

    Is there a fee to join?

    You’ve GOT to be kidding. Of course, there’s a fee to join. I’ve already mentioned that. One pays a tithe of 10% gross monthly income. The membership donation is also presented in a sliding scale, so that newer members are required to pay less than older members until they are able to verify the basic principles of awakening and sleep. We are very nice that way. Special donations are also requested to help fund various (ahem) “projects” at Isis. When all is said and done, you are paying about 25 to 35% of your net salary to the Fellowship.

    Are there additional fees?
    Yes, there are additional fees. You can pay anwhere from $700 to $1,500 each month to participate. No big deal. The reward is escaping imagination. Imagination is not allowed here.


  221. 208 WhaleRider
    wrote

    “IMO for a person struggling in the recovery process from addiction, those with a lack of healthy self-respect or lack of healthy ego boundaries, the transcendent qualities and dissolution of ‘self’ inherent in non-duality would seem frightening and problematic, because that transcendence is what they long for in the drug of choice. The drug provides a short cut to nirvana where the self and time doesn’t exist. In their drug induced ‘stupor’ they feel merged in that great cosmic ocean, more than likely in compensation for what they lacked in their family experience. And since they also lack the being to create that state for themselves independent of the drug, the drug wears off and paradise is lost. Chasing the feeling of transcendence does great damage in the addict’s life and cheats them of being in the present. They are taught to be wary of it. That’s why in the stages of recovery, it is important for addicts to get grounded in their bodies and to learn self-respect through work on empowering themselves day by day.

    So IMO the philosophy of non-duality would be a conflict for someone completing the 12 step process of recovery.”

    This would be a reason
    able if questionable diagnosis if done by a professional in the field. What are your qualifications?
    Is there some basis in fact or is this just a full moon head release of energy?


  222. 184 wake up little suzy wakeup

    “Many people here are talking about joining another group.

    A quiet mind is all that is necessary. There is no need to join anything. If there is support to help in understanding that this is all that is needed, then I think joining a support group would be beneficial for some people.

    After the mind settles down, then all kinds of new information pours in. That’s where inspiration comes from.

    It takes a quiet mind to access information from higher sources. I really think that it’s unnecessary to call it something other than what it is. Silence is the key to higher understanding, because without it, all we are is a bunch of I’s. Information from the Source (or God) can only be received if ones cup is empty.”

    Thank you for your words. That is exactly where I am these days. I just read somewhere (paraphrasing) that activity is really just transportation, but action can only come from the heart.

    Joseph G


  223. on August 2, 2007 at 4:28 am Medicine Man

    “I want to alleviate our collective distress so that we can celebrate the miracle of existence together – without fear, oppression and hardship.

    Don’t you also want that?

    Since immemorial wise men and women have been assuring us that love is the only solution to our problems. And they are right.

    Only love can heal the divisions between us,
    because love is the realisation that we are one.

    When we assume we are just separate individuals we act in our limited self-interest, regardless of the suffering we may cause others.

    The illusion of separateness leads to selfishness and suffering.

    But becoming conscious of the reality of oneness leads to the selfless desire to end all suffering and create universal wellbeing.

    When we realise separateness is an illusion we understand that conflict is never between us and them, but always us against us.

    This realisation has huge implications.

    It means harming someone else is just hurting ourselves.

    It means revenge – even against the most hideous of criminals – is hurting ourselves again.

    It means war – no matter how righteous – is grotesque self-mutilation.

    Think of all the needless suffering we are causing ourselves through our mistaken belief that we are separate.”

    I’m Sorry

    Please Forgive me

    I Love you

    Thank You

    God Bless


  224. Hey Scott, the former student:

    Thanks for your response. Let’s just say that I am a seasoned professional in the field. You are too, I believe, are you not? We probably have more in common than you realize.

    Work with me here. How could a person in recovery complete the steps if there was no ‘self’ to be held accountable? How could they count the number of days or years sober if time didn’t exist? ‘Who’ would be powerless from what?

    Is not the separation within oneself of healthy from unhealthy parts, behaviors, attitudes, or beliefs the beginning steps on the road to recovery? How could one feel whole if one struggled with a part of oneself that wished more clarity and another part that just wanted to go get wasted?

    What kind of response would someone like Ryan receive in a 12 step meeting talking about non-duality? They’d say just what you say, get real, dude, who the fuck do you think you are to talk like that? They’d say, get off your high horse! This is the problem with talking about philosophy. It can get pretty heady and lose touch with the practical side of things, like just getting through each day clean and sober.

    The inner conflict associated with non-duality and other ‘transpersonal’ therapies or ‘meditative’ techniques for the person in recovery is well known. I didn’t just sit down at my computer on a full moon and make this shit up for sake of argument. I’d be happy to refer you to some reading on the subject, if you were so inclined or interested.


  225. To 223 and 84; Thank you for the posts.

    Although I am no longer in the School, I continue to use the knowledge from it. And also from other B influence things I have studied.

    A group may not be necessary, it all depends on your aims and what you want. In fourth way terminology 2nd line helps to reinforce 1st line and vis versa. So with being in a group you will see different parts of your mechanics if you were not in one.

    For, me as I slow down in this momemt typing on the keyboard to finish this sentance; the realization is, “Am I here to writing these words”, or am I just being mecanically spinning into this blog in sleep. So, I have an aim to make an effort when I write now to be present. The same goes for reading, we can mechanically read, but what about reading from the higher part of ourselves, the moe present part, when we read from this blog. It does not mean to be reading critical and judging; if mean reading from a sense of comapasssion, external consideration and at the same time trying “B” in that moment.

    Cheers,

    M


  226. on 02 Aug 2007 at 4:20 am223 Joseph G
    184 wake up little suzy wakeup

    One of the things I have been most succesful at, if that is even applicable, of late, is doing nothing. At least for me this is not some cosmic answer because indeed it is often just doing nothing. A lack of energy, motivation etc. But in many cases out of this “nothing” my own thoughts will arise, they may manifest as music, Art, writing or whatever.

    In a very real sense the greatest luxury is doing nothing. To be free from the control of external forces to the degree of having choices.


  227. Former student:
    “I find it offensive that you question my right to have my own understanding.”
    Did I question your right to have your understanding? How do you come up with this conclusion? No, your understanding is all yours, and it totally cool with me. Sorry to offend you. I really mean it. It must be my English that makes it sound … whatever.

    I was just trying to have a conversation. To share how I see it. Hoping we can compare, talk, argue may be… I guess we can’t. You seem to perceive it as some kind of personal attack and get into defense mode. No fun! It is not an attack, it’s a friggin blog! Words on screen written by someone you’ve never met… Why take it SO personally?

    If my words are that offensive – I am sorry. Again, I mean it.
    Wishing you peace,
    J


  228. The Void
    Surrounding the second and the third chakra is the Void which stands for
    the principle of mastery (guru principle) within us. In many spiritual
    traditions, this area is the “ocean of illusions” that needs to be crossed
    with the help of a spiritual guide. When the Kundalini is awakened and
    passes through the Void, this principle of mastery is established within
    us. Thus, as Shri Mataji says, in Sahaja Yoga you become your own guru,
    your own spiritual guide since you can feel on your fingertips all your
    subtle problems and have the power to cure them using your own Kundalini.
    Moreover, establishing this center helps us get rid of all our habits, laziness,
    gross attachments, and everything that enslaves us in a way or another:
    we become our own master. Following false “gurus” who are more
    interested in power tricks or your purse can damage very much the
    Void area. But after Self Realization, everything can be cured through
    the purifying power of the Kundalini in meditation.


  229. From a distance.
    In reading some of the recent posts it seems that it might be a good idea to set up a support group beyond the blog and the greater fellowship site.
    Being too far away I cant take this initiative, but perhaps some of the brave souls who have left and are still “around” could organise something allong these lines for those who are thinking of leaving or who have recently left, which might minimise the rawness of the experience, that some of us felt upon leaving.
    It might also encourage those who are afraid of jumping into what is portrayed as “the void” and give real support in a time of crisis or “kairos”.
    It could be very simple just some friends getting together to have a meal, drink tea, chat or simply be there maybe even a couch to sleep on or a place to pitch a tent for a while.
    But with regular times to provide a structure or form to assist the triad of regeneration.
    Personally it would have been a Godsend for me to have been able to have had such an arrangement when the “Queen” tried to persuade me to stay.
    Instead after telling him, her, it that I was firm in my descision to leave, it seemed that I was completely alone.
    There were probably others who had left who lived nearby who would have been supportive, but through “communication control” were not available.
    Let them know they are not alone!
    Let them know where they can go!
    If you think its a reasonable suggestion please comment, post an address or whatever you can offer to help.
    What do you think?
    What do you feel?
    Am I being naive?
    ltya. Cy.


  230. 213, 223 and 231 are newly moderated.


  231. on August 2, 2007 at 10:23 am Bass Ackwards

    198 Ryan O’Poo

    “The notion of being someone who owns consciousness is at the root of RB’s teaching and the root cause of much that is false in RB and consequently false in the FOF. It is the dead end that many eventually encounter and a simple explanation as to why no one in FOF actually awakens.”

    Couldn’t have said it better, myself. Thanks, Ryan. Higher experiences/understandings bring us to a loss of our sense of separateness. Call it Conscience. Call it Love. Call it Presence. But personal spiritual ownership is an illusion. Personal responsibility and integrity is not.

    Cheers,
    Bass


  232. 213

    Good Morning Suzy ~

    You wrote ~

    “I actually did hear that Robert was HIV positive but both people that told me are now deceased.”
    _________________________________

    Suzy, did you mean this to sound dubious or did it just happen that way… it’s sorta dabbling in the realm of Black-comedy.

    :’]


  233. 225

    Good Morning Joseph ~

    You wrote ~

    “It takes a quiet mind to access information from higher sources. I really think that it’s unnecessary to call it something other than what it is. Silence is the key to higher understanding, because without it, all we are is a bunch of I’s.”
    _______________________________________________

    Beautifully put; I second that motion…

    Whalerider, please mail me the large rubber mallet next to your toaster.

    Joseph, truly, your posting is a sort of second sunrise for me this morning; thank you. Coincidences are more than ‘simple affirmative ‘facts’… They are oftentimes the results of both our internal white and black magic.
    ___________________

    l.t.y.a.

    l.t.y.a.


  234. 214 Critical Mass,

    Thank you for posting Wayne Motts account of the Theatron. Interesting that no where does he write how much money has been collected with that aim and how much it has actually cost. It is what is missing that matters. Detailed accounts of how student’s money is used.


  235. on August 2, 2007 at 2:43 pm wake up little suzy wakeup

    Being quiet: I was watching a TV special one day and they were explaining how when Jonas Salk was working he would go out every day for lunch to a place where he could quiet his mind. And from that place of quietness came the polio vaccine.

    It’s also very interesting to me that it takes an effort to be quiet. It’s both an active and passive experience, or complete within itself.


  236. guided #231: A Fourth Way student by the name of Maurice Nicoll gave his opinion about ‘Kundalini. Volume 1, Commentaries page 308.

    ‘They also said the day would be that some of those connected with the Fourth Way would bang each other on the head about this or that.

    And, finally, the Fourth Way literature (not Robert Burton’s) has indicated by examples the result of “SILENCE”.


  237. on August 2, 2007 at 4:25 pm Critical Mass

    One of the newly wed girls made her fiancé have an HIV test before they married. Very sensible, but he will continue to be at risk after they marry because he will still be having sex with Robert. Apparently he does Robert twice each night. Robert’s basic staple is sex five times a day.

    BTW, the Romanians, ____________ and all, practice the divine art of semen retention, so they can keep going for a long time. Maybe this explains their influence with Robert…

    Name deleted. –ES


  238. Re: Post #237 from Elena about the Theatron

    It is also typical of the Fellowship not to mention why there has been such difficulty with the county and such horrific cost to sudents. The Fellowship knows the county building regulations but intentionally decided to ignore them and go ahead with this project without the required permits, inspections, fees, applications, meetings, approvals, etc. knowing that there would be penalties and fines and requirements to meet county codes which means additional and unnecessary expense to the membership. This is typical of the arrogant attitude the Fellowship has towards “life” in general and even worse, the total insensitivity to the financial burdens placed on the gullible membership. This is nothing new. It has been the pattern of the Fellowship of Friends all throughout its history. Grandiose plans, that cost many times the actual cost with the end result being unfinished buildings, never-built buildings, aborted projects and a bizarre pastiche of pretentious structures that members are subtly indoctrinated to believe are wondrous achievements higher than anything possible by “life people”. The attitude of the FOF and Robert Burton is one of pure arrogance and shameless insensitivity to the burdens placed on the pitifully naive membership.


  239. Vena, Funny ,thats just what I was thinking !


  240. 239 Critical Mass

    “BTW, the Romanians,_____________ and all, practice the divine art of semen retention, so they can keep going for a long time.”

    Or maybe they’re so repulsed they can’t come.


  241. Deleted on request of the author. –ES


  242. Words…….
    quiet mind, activity…….
    Wouldn’t the state of not being identified represent the quiet side and whatever action one is doing, the active side?
    Not this or that, this vs that but this and that? Not being identified to me is simply holding presence beyond phenomena without disacknowledging phenomena.

    The great loss in the fellowship of friends was that the “action with presence” that Robert taught was only allowed in as much as students followed Robert’s form. The Fellowship has never allowed any student to connect his own “action with presence” to his own will. That is why we were unable to teach each other from our own being and the speakers in the fellowship are only those that are willing to speak to support Robert’s form, Robert’s school, or a permanent expresion of indoctrination. Those in the inner circle gave up their will to belong to it and that is why nothing of value has come from any one of them but the blind subserviance to Robert against the majority of students. Nothing of value, for there is nothing of human value in Isis, except the many student’s thwarted lives. Not even the gardens are organic.

    Robert and Girard, overemphasized presence without functions which deteriorates the I or integrated living. That is why everyone is so insecure and the sure ones are crystallized in their assuredness. The sure ones are sure because they don’t allow questioning or are willing to reason with common sense. They answer to Robert’s sexuality with a buffer like, I don’t know and don’t understand, it is not my problem. Their leader’s highest source of energy, highest function on this plane, is not their problem.

    I think action with presence means allowing the centers to both take and bring meaning from the outside world. What you do and how you do it. What you do is what comes from the outside world, a gift, how you do it, comes from the inner world, your gift. Presence in silence also means bringing from and taking meaning to the inner world. Acknowledging ourselves as worthy cosmic beings allows one to understand that one’s interaction with this world is also a feedback to the inner world. Not just one’s own inner world but also the spiritual world or the cosmos in which we are all one. The spiritual trunk from which we’ve sepated into individual wills. Leaves sending light back to the roots.

    It seems to me that one of the great horrors of our time is that in the physical world we are orphans. Not just those whose parents have died but all those who have given them up. We’ve lost references, connectiions, both with our parents and our children. Our past and future, our roots and flowers. This is true of fellowship students to a greater degree than elsewhere but it is a common practice of the economy. This suffering may well be worthwhile in as much as it makes us connect to a much wider world beyond the family but not necessarily excluding it, into the realm of I as an individual and I as a human being. I as a cosmic being and I as a human or earthly being.

    They are both equally necessary in the fourth way. The connectedness with above and below is also as necessary as the connectedness within one’s self. The higher serving the lower is a law in the practice of one’s consciousness with one’s physical body as much as in the practice of one’s humanity and one’s work in life. “Work” in the ample sense of the word as all of one’s manifestatioins on this plane.

    “Work” in our times also seems to have become orphaned from any human meaning. To work to make money is only a minor aspect of work. Just as love, marriage and friendship are amazingly disconnected from our consciousness.

    I am basically talking about myself. This is what I see is happening to me. There is hardly any balance between the centers in my own experience and I dare say, in most of the people I know in “life” and much worse “in the fellowship”. I don’t think we can ever come to balance them individually as the fellowship of friends proposed. We need to align ourselves with a wider understanding of cosmic and human processes.

    If the Fellowship of Friends worked for thirty five years in as much as it went on unquestioned deeply for that length of time, what can be deeply grasped and understood is that the form does model the inner world. The form of the fellowship held itself together for that length of time because the form did not allow serious questioning and those who did were asked to leave. It had so much power to model student’s inner world that there are still over a thousand of them willing to support an institution that denies them the right to participate on equal ground as to how their community should function with the justification that there is a being that knows much better than them what is good for them and they are willing to lower themselves and acknowledge that they are not good enough to take responsibility for them selves. They are being programmed to not be good householders but intentionally disown their own will. If this is not brainwashing, what is it?

    For those of us who have lived it, that is, gone through being deprogrammed somewhat from one’s upbringing to being programmed in the fellowship and deprogramming ourselves again, understanding that the outside world matters, counts, deeply programs, is a great understanding. From one angle it means realizing that how we use our centers will intimately model our presence and how much will or presence one brings to the centers, will raise the quality of one’s interaction with the world. The huge damage to individuals in the fellowship is that by giving up their will, the quality of student’s interaction with the world becomes so poor that depression, fear, guilt and so many other self denying emotions, develop.

    Thought, feeling, movement and consumption all need to be in harmony with one’s will. Consumption is a crude word for the beauty of the functions of the body but I’ll simply add, consumption in as much as one can bring the same measure of gratitude to what one is consuming. Movement, feeling and thought are even more difficult to deal with than the instinctive center but the instinctive center is a beautiful analogy of any of the other centers. Presence or the divine within one in any one of them, makes us beautifully human.

    Robert rooted his work on the king of clubs as an enemy because he was unable to bring presence to his instinctive center and control his sexuality. He was unable to overcome duality in his theory because he was unable to impose unity within himself. Unity is an ever affirmation of the divine in man while duality is the perception of man from the second state. Unity is integrated transformation while duality gives so much credit to the lower that it cannot overcome the struggle, it stays in duality and gives no perspective, conditioning students to their lower self instead of their higher being. It has no hope, which is why students hopelessly believe in him, having reached no clarity of their own.

    The programming of the fellowship conditions students to leave out their self will in every area so that Robert can decide how to use their mind, heart and pocket. Those working in the fellowship today, no matter how much they are using their centers for some creative work, are allowed only in as much as they do not include any of their own will, their own presence and simply adapt to Robert’s severly distorted sexuality for it is, after all, his sexuality, with cero acknowledgement of the need of each individual to develop his own will, what is conditiioning all of life in the fellowship of friends.

    In as much as an individual cannot develop his will, he cannot come under the law of destiny and is merely under the law of accident or somebody else’s will. In the Fellowship of friends, student’s are under Robert’s law of accident or do the males really think that it is their destiny to be sexually used by him? and the rest of student’s, that it is their destiny to support it?


  243. TO Shiek.

    PLEASE REMOVE # 243 From Inner Piece.

    Thanks


  244. Elena ~

    Did you ever happen upon that book “Daughter of Fire”, by Irina Tweddie?

    curious

    :”)


  245. No, but I’ll be happy to get it when I can. Thank you for suggesting it.


  246. What is an INDIE FILM? and can anyone name one, a couple or a few that promotes any spiritual ideas. I never saw the Matrix is that one?


  247. 170 Janna wrote
    “So process is a mental concept, very useful in our lives, but nevertheless – imaginary, a mind activity so to speak.
    In the immediacy on the Now there is no process.
    There is no time either – this is another (useful) mind concept, or another (useful) illusion.”

    A possible edit

    I think process is a mental concept, very useful in our lives, but nevertheless – imaginary, a mind activity so to speak.
    In the immediacy of the experience of the Now there is no process.
    There is no time either – this is another (useful) mind concept, or another (useful) illusion.”

    or
    I experience process as a mental concept, very useful in our lives, but nevertheless – imaginary, a mind activity so to speak.
    In the immediacy on the Now there is no process.
    There is no time either – this is another (useful) mind concept, or another (useful) illusion.”

    on 02 Aug 2007 at 6:18 am230 Janna

    Former student:
    “I find it offensive that you question my right to have my own understanding.”

    “Did I question your right to have your understanding? How do you come up with this conclusion?”

    It is a question of language. However in this (writing on the computer) form intent does not count as much as form since what is exchanged it is limited to language. By making non-conditional or universal statements you deny the existance of other possibilities. So if I don’t agree you are saying I’m wrong. This is inherent in the structure of the language.

    Consider this statement.
    “So process is a mental concept, very useful in our lives, but nevertheless – imaginary, a mind activity so to speak.”

    There are a number of assumptions and conditions that make this false. One it is not prefaced with “in my opinion” “it is possible” “I think” “I have experienced ” or anything to indicate that it is subjective. You are not presenting a realization , experience or opionon . It is presented as an objective fact.

    The “facts” as presented are that process does not exist, to think they do is mind activity and mind activity is imagination.
    This is an unprovable statement because the only proof is in the experience of this state of realization.
    So to me this is false. In a structered argument I could find many supporting opinions-perhaps even you did not think this way last year.

    This is what Ouspensky described as lying. Lying in the sense of speaking about something you cannot know about as if you know. Consider even given that this is objective knowledge and 100% accurate you cannot prove something that is your own realization to another. This is the problem with speaking about or writing about non-dualism. Even given that it is correct. Language itself is dualistic as it reflects our normal consciousness. Non-Duality is about your consciousness. You cannot prove it by any external.

    “There is no time either – this is another (useful) mind concept, or another (useful) illusion.”

    This is another example. This is an unconditional statement of fact. “There is no time.”
    Everything in my experience says this is false. Probably 99.99% of the population would agree with me.I don’t deny the possibility for this experience to be real for you. But in the way you are saying this without any modification you are saying I cannot have any other experience or opinion without my experience being false. Although you deny the existance of time. There was a point in time earlier when you did not think this way. If there was a change then there was a process of change.

    ” No, your understanding is all yours, and it totally cool with me. Sorry to offend you. I really mean it. It must be my English that makes it sound … whatever.

    “I was just trying to have a conversation. To share how I see it. Hoping we can compare, talk, argue may be… I guess we can’t. You seem to perceive it as some kind of personal attack and get into defense mode. No fun! It is not an attack, it’s a friggin blog! Words on screen written by someone you’ve never met… Why take it SO personally?”

    Why take my thoughts and feelings personally? Because they are mine ( and it was a full moon) and I don’t need to play any Fellowship make believe personality games. In the Fellowship an act of fiegned indifference to ones own thoughts, feelings and desires is cultivated to indicate that one has a “higher” being that one is “non identified”. This is a lie. Non-identification is an internal state. I can be cranky, hungry, irritated, thoughtful. logical and a myriad of other things and not be identified internally .

    As long as I realize they are just passing states much like the external weather, as long as I know they are not “me” that I can have my sense of self and attention more on that which is unchanging and unmoved behind the shifting play of the many “I’s.

    In a converstaion you can create room for different views by not presenting your opinions and currant understanding as universal facts it makes any other opinion wrong.
    This is partly a question of semantics, ( the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs; especially : connotative meaning )language and that is the limitation of this form.

    Part of what the experience of the Fellowship of Friends seems to do is remove the habit of owning ones own experiences and opinions. To remove the ability to say this is what I think, I believe, my opinion without needing to be “objectivly “correct.

    The Fellowship has been using “objective” facts that are really lies for so long that it becomes a mental habit for those in the Fellowship to seek universal principals to justify themselves where they are neither possible nor needed.

    “If my words are that offensive – I am sorry. Again, I mean it.
    Wishing you peace,”

    They are not that offensive. ( offensive – causing displeasure or resentment ) In other words they cause displeasure-If you are familiar with my posts in general there is one (if not more) area that I generally will react to and that is presenting an individual opinion as objective information.

    I accepted this once from Robert Burton at some cost and I am not that tolorant even if it is just a misuse of language.

    I think this reminds me of the way the Fellowship distorts communications and understanding and minimizes the sacredness of the individuality..
    If all it takes is a minor change in language to communicate more effectivly then to me it is worth making a point of it.I am sure we agree more than disagree.

    I have peace I am just an grouchy old man.


  248. Elena ~

    I can send you a copy if you wish; do you have access to Amazon.com and postal service @ the ocean? Since you’re already a ‘Daughter of Fire’ I am under no illusion that it’s going to be a sort of self-revelation thingy; simply, for me, it was a sort of ‘companion’, intuitively I ‘latched onto’ her Sufi teacher, gave me a good idea of what Shams might have been for Rumi, yet too understood her proximity to him as well, so far as my subjective understanding of such relationships are to ‘outside certain somethings’… Kiss the ocean for me… Geez… I’m a bit jealous you’re there; god, I love the ocean!

    Word!


  249. Apropos of Elena’s post regarding orphans, I recommend the following book:

    Emotional Cutoff: Bowen Family Systems Theory Perspectives, Peter Titelman, editor.

    An excerpt from the book may be found here:

    http://www.haworthpress.com/store/SampleText/4812.pdf


  250. 249 Unoanimo,
    My email is ludoteka at succeed.net. I never made it to the ocean so there’s nothing to envy although the ocean of green of the Andes is equally beautiful. I’ll be in the states in a few weeks. Would you care to talk?


  251. 180 Janna

    Cool! You’re awesome too!

    Oh, you know me?!

    Really? You think I am one of “Your Russian friends”?
    You have “Russian Friends” as well, interesting…
    And I would guess that you are a “Russian Friend” to someone else. Is it some sort of a game ex-FOFers play?

    Janna: “Dear, would you be my “Russian Friend” ?
    Her ‘friend’: “Yes, my love. But you have to be Present.”

    Janna: – WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING HERE ON THIS BLOG??? And where is YOUR real name, you brave chickenshit?

    – NOT YOUR DIRTY FUCKING BUSINESS!!!, said “Who Knows” in his usual aggressive style.

    -AND IF YOU WANT MORE SPECIFIC ANSWER, ASK A SPECIFIC QUESTION.

    Specific |spəˈsifik| adjective – clearly defined or identified • precise and clear.

    And since you are one of the few enlightened here, and, as you said you know who I am, you should know my name too.
    Kinda stupid to ask, isn’t it?

    But Cool and Awesome!


  252. On The Expression of Negativity according to The Fellowship of Friends ~

    Quote from a previous blog (somewhere in Part 13, in the 500’s) ~

    “Dear friends traveling to Milan,
    Robert is offering to seat with you and sign a volume of a book chosen by you at the reception after the meeting in Milan. If you would like to purchase a volume of “Best Thoughts” or Thoughts from the Teacher”, please contact X in Milan. You can also purchase a volume at the Apollo Media Products table after the meeting. If you would like to bring your own volume of a precious book, please do so and contact X.
    Book signing: EU 50
    Dedication: EU 100.
    _________________

    Quote from Hans ~ “Expressing negativity is always a weakness.”
    _________________

    As the years have rolled by (similar to tumble weeds that contain the one sock everyone has lost in the washer or dryer at some point in their lives) I have observed that the Fellowship of Friends ‘still’ have a very Robert Burton idea of the expression of Negativity, i.e., formatory, very subjective and in my opinion not an idea birthed from Higher Intellectual Center.

    Take the above quote concerning the book signing and please current Fellowship of Friends, ask yourselves this ~

    Robert Burton: What exactly is it, to charge your already (subconsciously spiritually destitute followers; and you know it) and financially maxed out contributors, who beckon to your every call with their cash and blank personal checks, including their virgin bodies and essential, naive essences, who stare at you smiling, similarly to the status of their blank checks, $50 dollars for your 4 second signature and another $50 dollars, totaling $100 dollars for your 20 second personal dedication?

    Subtle negativity?

    Yes, I believe so… It is this category of negativity that the ‘regular’ emotional connection simply cannot see or stand to fathom it’s implications; yet, is it not true that such ‘subtle negativity’ is exactly what the ‘personal conscious’ affirmations feed or attempt to neutralize in the Fellowship of Friends via subtle positive emotions of the same ‘real’ quality as the subtle negative, a sort of “seems to be”, “though might not be”, “yet one really cannot know for sure”, sort of cult-drug, which feeds on one’s duality rather than one’s attempts to reconcile conscience, contradictions, hypocrisy and lying, to try and be the same person in every circumstance?

    Your ‘teacher’s’ subtle negativity is one of the enormous ‘electronic forces’ that keeps your ‘electronic psyches’ in a Relative Awakening stage and state (my opinion) and he counter-sues you by feeding you, again, the flip side of the same wooden nickel, subtle ‘positive’ affirmations that lead to belief, faith, hope and the promise of heaven and hell, depending on your ‘personal’ (subtle) relationship to him and his ‘ideas’ of C-Influence, and his ideas of their ideas of his ideas concerning their will.

    Relative Awakening is the inner condition of one’s total willed force stopped at a crossroads, one lane is the obvious, the other subtle; many are ‘crucified’ on the cross and by being identified with the struggle to choose and not being allowed to by a cult-leader who himself cannot, it becomes a spiritual symbol of goal, hope and faith, belief and the extreme willfulness to simply ‘trust’ that his external voice and your mid perception of his image is ‘right’ while your subtle-eye, your conscience (among other inner tools) are wrong, subjective, lower centers, etc… (?)

    Your statuses as Men #4 have become your crosses, not to bear, rather, to hang yourselves out to dry in the desert of Robert Burton’s wasteland of greed and spiritual fraud…

    Good luck with that ballet on the tennis courts thing; Robert being a tennis player and all, I am sure he’ll spin it as some humble sign from the gods to make him look smaller and smaller; maybe some day you guys will make him so small that he’ll be able to squeeze into your third-eye and be that for you too… You trust him, right?

    ____________________________

    Hello ‘A Former Student’ ~

    You wrote ~

    “Why take my thoughts and feelings personally? Because they are mine (and it was a full moon) and I don’t need to play any Fellowship make believe personality games.”
    ___________________________________________

    Although it seems you’re still playing the ‘Fellowship games’ by adding the “full moon” thingy; is that supposed to excuse you for being “just an grouchy old man”? Is that a justification to be an effect upon another friend via the moon and not oneself? You’ve watched my back at times ‘A Former Student’, I hope you don’t mid me watching yours a little…

    Even with the chess board totally cleared, it’s still a game; we’re all pieces by some definition of the word; perhaps the origin of ‘chess’ is closer to what we ‘will to be’, ‘will to do’, can be be from that place, from where games were invented, though not for the inventors sake?

    ___________________________________

    l.t.y.a.


  253. Elena ~

    Yes. I will order the book and have it waiting (if you wish).

    ‘Who Knows’ where I’ll be in a few weeks; I’ll try and email you soon.

    :)


  254. 191 PETER

    Your beginning is good. Thank you, nice advice.

    And then…

    A “Part in you” – is a piece of what we in FOF call ”feminine dominance”, words like should, or must, refering to authority – “Robert Burton doesn’t appreciate what you are writing down here on the blog”. Do you want to make me pee in my pants because Robert does not appreciate that I am writing here?!

    What a piece of shit!

    ASK YOUR TEACHER WHEN IN DOUBT

    Who said I am in doubt?

    What a piece of shit!

    I write here from myself, not as a representative or a delegate.
    If you think otherwise, there is something wrong in your thinking.

    “You first must become ‘clean’ with your ‘school’ before you will be able to speak in their defense.”

    But what if I am not really defending anything? What then is my reason to be here?

    And why does it matter soooo much to you and many others?


  255. on 01 Aug 2007 at 8:33 pm
    204 Rhino Neal
    Thanks, Ryan (196), for posting the Nisargadatta quote: “We are accustomed to thinking of bodies as having consciousness whereas it is consciousness which has bodies.” That pretty much says it all. RN

    I agree, and wish it was so.

    There was a time back when I was experiencing either an extended period of awakening or a psychotic episode that I found it very comfortable to spend my time at Mountain View Cemetery and The Chapel of the Chimes in Oakland. I found it more restfull to be around disembodied spirits than those with bodies.

    This is not entirely proof of insanity as Mountain Veiw Cemetary is arguebly the most beautiful area of Oakland, so it can also be a sign of wisdom and sanity to prefer it to say a shoping mall or Roberts favorite places, Restaurants.

    Mountain Veiw is a Bay Area landmark designed by renowned landscape architect Frederick Law Olmsted; I often enjoyed the peace, tranquility, inspiring landscaping, and sweeping views of the Bay Area. It is a great place to walk. My favorite technique is to park on the top of the hill and amble about untill I tire and realize I have to walk back up the hill. It is also full of esoteric symbols to provide shocks to your being mentation as you walk around the different areas.

    The nearby Chapel of the Chimes mausoleum is amongst amazing the best places to walk I have ever been. It is a maze with many levels and rooms . Built of fine marbles and other stone with incredible gardens designed by the legendary architect Julia Morgan, along with the chapel’s cloisters, alcoves, stairwells, fountains, columbaria, and mausoleum areas, with antiquities that date back to the 16th century. There are Stained glass, statues, murals, brass works, lamps, and mosaics . In some sections biblical verses on written at the tops of the walls . Every few feet the vista changes. You turn a corner or go up a some flight of stairs and there is something new. It is visually and emotionally stimulating full of esoteric symbols and B influence and still it offers very real physical exercise as one passes amongst the different sections and levels.

    I once experienced a moment of unity. Much of what is described in non duality was true in that moment. It is not true now. Perhaps the way we interprett such experiences is also part of what we bring to it. Was that higher centers? objective consciousness? Who knows to me it is just another “fact” of life. It happened some things I remember offer profound insights other things were obviously or at least apparantly delusional . What I call “magical thinking”

    It lead me to a new relationship to the “system” as it expressed my experiences more clearly than any other means I had.

    Perhaps at death I will again experience this unity. Now I experience process, time, my life , my body. Arguing with me that I do not experience what I experience is pouring from the emptyness into the void. It is a meaningless act.
    Can I share my experience , No? Convince anyone? who cares. I am not even sure it is a desireable experience.

    If I am a cranky old guy fine. Particularly in regard to the Fellowship of Friends discussion which involves a group of individuals who spent much time , some as much as 20-30 years believing in a very nice smooth talking, well dressed con man who smiled, claimed a higher consciousness, called you goodness and said “I will love you for ever ” as he took your money and raped you or your friends, relations or husbands.

    So excuse me if I don’t find what appears to be the “next big thing” in spiritual truth appealling personally. Also consider the track record of those who are now “converts” and as ernestly “preaching” this new truth as they did their faith in Robert Burton and the Fellowship last year or five or ten years ago.

    I do hold everyone who participates on the blog in the highest regard not least the anynomous readers. A number who have posted to me privately at the greater Fellowship or called to say they appreciate what I am writing.

    You can find my art work and personal photo’s either at the greater Fellowship as
    Duncan Shockley fof 1973-1980
    on webshots as Scottduncan
    I moderate a rather placid group on yahoo called stillpoint devoted to discussing the ideas of the 4th way which certainly could use some help.

    My e mail is scottduncan@frys.com

    Also for anyone in the Bay Area I am going to try and start a new project called Leaves of Grass
    The first performance is Sunday from 6-9 in Berkeley at Spuds Pizza. They have a very nice simple room with some good local art that I will use.
    This will be performance art using group participation , improvised music, computer graphics , a drum circle and selected readings if anyone is in the area any help ( just showing up is help)with this would be appreciated.
    Although I gather the those recently leaving the Fellowship may not find reading from Whitman appealing. I on the other hand not ever having experienced a Fellowship meeting that was just readings have no such prejudice.


  256. on August 3, 2007 at 1:31 am Laughing Love

    To Who Knows (255)

    Who asks the following questions:

    “But what if I am not really defending anything? What then is my reason to be here?”

    “And why does it matter soooo much to you and many others?”

    Can you answer your own questions?

    My answer is, “who knows”?

    LL


  257. 257 Who Knows

    “But what if I am not really defending anything? What then is my reason to be here?”

    My guess would be that you already have most of the FOF membership repulsed by you, and you’re now seeing how far you can spread your misogyny beyond your sick little sphere of influence.


  258. Deleted. –ES


  259. Dear former student,
    I just express things to the best of my English abilities.
    I think it is obvious that whatever I write here reflects my own prospective and experience, not some universal one as you said (how in the world would I or anyone know the “universal prospective”?)
    So may be I don’t use the word “mine” enough… But I am only able to say things from my own prospective, how I see it, the way it works for me… I assume it is obvious. We all speak from our own prospective, we have to. No one knows for sure for another.
    (Except for Robert of course! He seem to know the universal truth and tells you so. He usually adds something like: there is absolutely no doubt… or it is undeniable truth…or irrefutable evidence… or it is marvelous, is it not?)
    I don’t use expressions like this, so please don’t blame me.

    It’s interesting to me to actually look at the points expressed by others, observe, ponder, question, think, understand something new – rather than correct each other’s language or call it lying…

    I think we learn new things and understandings by sharing our experiences and views. I learned a lot from this blog and want to thank everyone who contributed here and Sheik for bearing with us for so long.


  260. Interesting that Who Knows is unable to really get a rise out of anyone. So pathetic it’s not worthy of response.

    Janna – nice job not wasting your spirit on this adolescent name calling. Just move right past him.

    I’ve mentioned before that these juvenile voices are not representative of the overwhelming majority of FOF members who are reading the blog, even if most choose to remain silent… for now.

    Lately the non-FOF-and-therefore-more-positive-more-hopeful-more-constructive-less-sinister themes have been very rewarding for me personally. Thank you all.

    With love,
    Joseph G


  261. Who knows – I don’t get your humor… It must be your and mine language barriers…

    “But what if I am not really defending anything? What then is my reason to be here?”
    – I don’t know… Loneliness may be? Fear? Desire for attention? Could be anything – who cares about your reasons.

    “And why does it matter soooo much to you and many others?”
    -What makes you think it matters sooo much? It really doesn’t matter. In fact, no one seem to give a crap…

    Frankly, your postings kinda suck, they are bitter and cowardly stabs, – so few people told you to get lost and not to take real estate here.


  262. Joseph,

    I think you might have made your compliment to Janna two minutes to early; or maybe you ignited her to post 262. But I understand Janna, I have been there too!

    OH, hello Bruce!

    We are all so mechanical, myself included so you don’t take it the wrong way. I thought today if I just go go against my mechanics more and not be this stimuli response machine I would be more AWAKE.


  263. Hey Fat Boy.


  264. To Former Student

    What’s with you?
    You seem to take exception to just about anything anyone else has to say, except you.

    Hey, chill. It works like this – I say something, you say something, I say something , you say something.
    In the general flow of life, it is called having a conversation.

    And, then, if you don’t like what someone says, you don’t take a dump on them – they have their way of expressing their ideas, and you have yours.

    Take a deep breath. Relax! Life is not as intense and miserable as you seem to percieve it.


  265. Agreed Flying Free. I love those dreams when I am a bird flying, usually wobbly and above the street lights; Moments you have total control then one second later your about to crash into the pavement; I am always saved for some reason.

    There was a good post a while back from a former student who stated to try to write and read and be present. I must admit I was completly in the second state of sleep on the above parapgraph; now there is a little more attention. Related to my mechanical observation earlier today was my many “fucking” I’s, useless shit I’s that my machine is just producing. One of the best angles I heard was at a fellowship meeting, and the student said, do not believe the I’s. That was a great angle for me and still is.


  266. #252 Who Knows

    Please tell your mother to put the parental controls on your internet access and make get back to your home work. Maybe you will pass 7th grade this year. And. please, leave the nice lady alone!


  267. Fat Boy, #266:

    “Related to my mechanical observation earlier today was my many “fucking” I’s, useless shit I’s that my machine is just producing.”

    This is a good example of one of the most destructive aspects of the Fellowship of Friends, and one that has taken the longest to begin to heal: self-flagellation, self-hatred and generally low self-esteem. Life is real only when you realize your “true personality” is not your friend.


  268. I see where you are comming from Innernaut, although I respectively disagree. I was actually feeling a low self-esteem in the morning because of work, this, and that. Then I realized, it is just the many I’s making me feel down. You could call it something else I guess, and right then when I noticed this I felt better and it lifted me up into a higher state.

    I think you may have taken my point out of context but this may be your style, connect it to “how bad the “FOF is?

    And you mentioned self hatred, I am not sure where you mangaged to unavel that out of what I said, but one can spin almost anything in anyway they would like to. I don’t think that is taught in FOF, and Robert use to put many exercises around self pity, so I would almost say the opposite is true of what you are saying.

    But there is truth in everything and do not want to diminish anything that you have felt, and if you wish feel free to explain more of what you mean. For I trully do not understand where you are comming from.


  269. #266 Fat Boy

    Welcome back, Fat Boy,

    Do you really have the courage to “not believe the I’s”?
    This truly means evaporation of the ego, all faith, your persona, and that of anyone and anything you think you know and love. Are your ready to accept that “you” are the product of a your own mechanical imagination??


  270. Although cults differ in their belief systems they all use the same mind control tactics. The purpose of this article is to give you the chance to test yourself to see if you are the victim of well known manipulative mind control techniques. No one single religious group has been singled out in the following questions. Rather, the information below has been gathered with many groups in mind, all of which are known to use mind control on its members. It should also be noted that these questions are not merely limited to religious groups only. There are also many non-religious secular, business, and political groups in existence today which also use mind control on its members.

    So what have you got to lose? Are you willing to take the test?

    Test Yourself

    Please answer the following questions honestly

    * Do you feel that no matter how hard you try, the “good deeds” you perform for your group are never quite enough? As a result of this do you often feel plagued with feelings of guilt?What are you motivated by? Is it genuine love for God and the group etc., or is it fear of not meeting the desired standards?Is questioning the group, or the group leaders, discouraged or frowned upon?Does the group you belong to believe that it is an elite and exclusive organization which alone has the truth and answers to life’s questions?Does the group pour scorn upon, attack, and mock other Christian churches and their interpretation of the Bible?Is reading any literature critical of the group discouraged? Many cults will warn members not to read anything critical of the group, especially if written by an ex-member (who are called names by the cult such as “apostate”, “hardened”, or “of the devil” etc.). This is a well known information control technique to stop the member from discovering the clear and documented errors of the cult. Members abilities to think for themselves is effectively disarmed in this way. Instead, they will think more and more as the rest of the group thinks.Take a look at the way the group looks and acts. Does everyone dress, act, and talk more or less the same? One observer, speaking of his particular involvement with a cult, said that the group encouraged its members “to do everything in exactly the same way – to pray the same, to look the same, to talk the same. This in psychology is a classic example of group conformity. Its purpose is to ensure that no one tries to act differently or become dissident, thus nobody questions the status quo.” (Andrew Hart, Jan. 1999).Does the group discourage association with non-members (except, maybe, for the possibility of converting them to the group)?Does the group give you “black and white” answers–what the group agrees with is right and what the group disagrees with is wrong?Does everyone in the group believe exactly the same things (i.e. what the group leaders tell them to believe)? Is there no room for individual belief, or opinion even in minor areas?Does the group wear “two faces”? On the one hand, does it attempt to present itself to potential converts and the public at large as a group of people who are like one large family, full of love and equality? But in actuality, does the group have many members that inwardly feel unfulfilled and emotionally exhausted?Have you attempted to disable your own God given critical thinking abilities by “shelving” various doubts about the group or groups teachings etc.Are those in the group who do not conform to the requirements of the movements teaching treated with suspicion, as if they are second-class members? Does the group tend to withhold certain information from the potential convert? Are the more unusual doctrines of the group not discussed until an individual is more deeply involved in the movement?
    * Do you feel fearful of leaving the group? Many cults use subtle fear tactics to stop members from leaving. For example, the group may imply that those who leave will be attacked by the Devil, have a nasty accident, or at least not prosper because they have left “the truth”.

    If you answered “yes” to most of the questions on the previous pages, the group which you are involved with is certainly using manipulative mind control techniques.

    Now that you know this, what will you do?

    1. You need to realize that whatever group you are part of does not have a monopoly on God. For many people in mind control cults, leaving the movement is usually considered the equivalent of leaving God Himself and forfeiting ones salvation. However, the truth is that there are Christians in all denominations who have found salvation in Christ alone, and not the church group itself. Many people who are trapped in a spiritually abusive religious system often feel as though they would have nowhere else to go even if they did manage to make the break from the group.

    The answer is found in what Jesus said in the Gospel of Matthew 11:28: “Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest.”You need to leave the group. This may be difficult, but by staying you will only continue to be spiritually and mentally abused. You will also be contributing to a system which, in your heart, you know to be wrong. Don’t let pride keep you from leaving the group.
    2. Don’t feel as though you will be alone in your decision to leave. There are many individuals who have been in the same situation as yourself. These people come from many different religious groups, but have all been victims of the same dominating mind control techniques. Today, many are living new lives of liberty, security, and hope. For encouragement, you may wish to read some of the stories posted or linked to from this site.

    http://www.christiananswers.net/evangelism/beliefs/test-mindcontrol.html


  271. Hey ‘Who Knows’ ~

    You wrote ~

    “But what if I am not really defending anything? What then is my reason to be here?

    And why does it matter soooo much to you and many others?”
    _______________________

    Well, it’s a Blog dude and we sorta blog around… we’re not really into transcendental meditation in here, I mean statistically speaking, we don’t just stare at each other, exchanging kundalini spirals; otherwise, they’d be no blog and you wouldn’t be asking wise azzzz questions… Get a grip and roll yo dice homey.

    Anyways, so many have already been there and done that, i.e., what you are acting out, that for the most part we just can’t park in yo Drive in Theater in broad daylight no more…
    ________________________

    Hey Fat Boy ~ I got a little ‘jolt’ when I saw your name…
    Get with ‘Who Knows’ and teach him or her how to shake those dice, fly above lamp posts, cause we don’t have tha time to be combing out no personality lice.

    ________________________

    Hey Arthur ~

    You wrote ~

    “I never saw the Matrix is that one?”

    My god Arthur! Get thee to BLOCKBUSTER before the ‘browns’ and ‘greys’ (subterranean aliens on Earth) deprogram all the DVD electronics and zap the internet… Be sure to watch all three in ‘sequence’, so to speak, it’s easy to mix up Part 1,2 and 3.

    Let me know how it settles with you.

    P.S. Do not watch the matrix series while surrounded by large quantities of munitions, fireworks, cattle that could be turned into black leather over coats and police stations less than 3 city blocks away… Trust me, it’s for the better good.

    ______________________________________________

    l.t.y.a.


  272. Bruce 261: Can you read this? My 239 & 249 still have “your comment is waiting moderation”?


  273. Never mind Bruce.


  274. BLOCK BUSTER a covert term for mason. There are two kinds of mason the operative who originally bust blocks so to speak and the speculative who dont get their hands dirty. Ltya. Cy.


  275. Unoanimo: I read the following many moons ago in one of my bi-product Gurdjieff books.

    “The recent film,”The Matrix,” is a story, which examines this idea. Written by somebody with an insider’s sense of humor I thoroughly recommend this “fourth-way” adventure film to you”.

    This recommendation has stayed in my “mind” since then. One time somebody came over with a DVD player for sale.
    I asked what it did and he said to watch movies. I then asked if he had the movie “The Matrix” and he did, but that I needed a television. At the time I had no computer and still dont have a television. I’ve never used a VCR.

    I took some magic mushrooms one time. Best movie I ever saw.

    Anyways, an article came out in yesterday’s paper about a new Indie Theater opening soon. The first thing my mind thought was, “what the hell is an Indie”? I read on and thought , “maybe “The Matrix” is an Indie film”?


  276. #271 Fat Boy:

    “But there is truth in everything and do not want to diminish anything that you have felt, and if you wish feel free to explain more of what you mean. For I trully do not understand where you are comming from.”

    I understand what you’re saying. Frankly, it’s nearly impossible to see what I’m talking about while you’re immersed in the FOF environment. It’s like a fish trying to see water. If you can’t see the self-hatred in a statement like “Related to my mechanical observation earlier today was my many “fucking” I’s, useless shit I’s that my machine is just producing,” then you are very much a fish in the water from where I sit. To me it sounds like the thinking of a cult member as described in post #273 by “a.” Maybe I’m misreading what you’re saying, but it sounds awfully familiar to me, and my own experience.

    Once you’re out of the FOF environment, not just physically but mentally as well, the false categorization of oneself into “good” and “bad” may become blindingly obvious. With any luck, you’ll see that the whole notion of a “work personality” or “true personality” is inherently false, and is a primary tool of the organization to promote conformity and obedience, at the expense of something more closely resembling who you really are, which ironically becomes more and more suppressed. That is my experience anyway, and it doesn’t just apply to the Fellowship of Friends and the school of Robert Burton, but is the nature of any group that promotes rigid, dogmatic thinking and “closed loop” arguments that do not permit any real skepticism and examination.

    As I said early on in the blog, if you are still completely engaged in the Fellowship, then you don’t have any “being” in what it is like to come out the other side. And until you do, what is blazingly clear, at least to me, will be impossible for you to see. I know this is a big assumption on my part, but I am basing it on the awareness of my own state of mind when I was “in,” and completely impervious to insights and arguments from the other side, so to speak.

    Good luck and I hope that helps.


  277. Just in case anybody is wondering why I dont have things, for the most part, my whole life consists in moments like this.

    I have a sum total of about three dollars to last five days. But, I am happy because I have bird food, cat food for about nine cats and food for three dogs.

    The cats chase the birds and the dogs chase the cats. I sip my beer and laugh.


  278. Re: Arthur 279

    definition of Indie culture on wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_%28culture%29


  279. Re: Arthur 279
    ibidem, an article on indie film:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_film

    (and if you type matrix in the wiki searc engine you’ll get an article on the film/series as well)

    as far as I now, Matrix is not an indie, but I’m not absolutely positive.


  280. Dear Innernaut,

    Thanks for taking the time to post in 280.

    The idea, “Not believing the I’s” is something I worked with a few years prior to joining the FOF.

    Honestly, I thought some of the readers would appreciate the swears, but I usually do not express myself in that way.

    Good luck to you also.


  281. Dear Fat Boy,

    I don’t know, there’s something really sweet about you, even though you made that silly comment about getting pussy a while back…

    It seems to me that you are a bit confused, and looking to find your own reflection in this big house of mirrors. My sisterly advice to you is: don’t try to please anyone, either here or in the FoF. Whatever you do, follow your own instinct and desire. Make an effort to listen to others but even more to yourself. Try to stay as close as possible to what you really feel and think and move from there. Don’t worry about being judged, don’t try to conform to other people’s ways. Intellectual honesty and integrity, in my opinion, are the qualities most appreciated in this blog. Cultivate them in yourself and you will be respected simply for who you are.
    In friendship,

    Laura


  282. Hey Fat Boy!

    Don’t know what you are agreeing with – but you may have the wrong person.
    I can’t even relate to anything you are saying or talking about in the Fellowship of Friends , the meetings or the Fourth Way. Sorry. Lost the whole kit and caboodle about a year ago. Can’t even have a conversation about it (you know you say something, I say something, you say something). Sooorrrryy!
    But, if that is your bag- have at it! Enjoy! Whatever.


  283. Imagining that you are “waking up” or even could “wake up” in a psychologically rotten cult like the FoF is insane, but having left that cult then wandering around imagining that you are just “roses, roses” and there is no need to wake up because life itself is the meaning of life is even more insane. People are asleep, meaning they have no real idea what they are doing or why, so naturally they want to justify what they are doing (which in most cases means imitating everyone else around them) for reasons that are entirely unconscious in origin. Joining the FoF was no accomplishment, you were a wrong magnetic center finding a wrong school, leaving the FoF is an improvement but it is not an end in itself. There is still something wrong with you and something wrong with life in general: you don’t remember yourself. You don’t remember yourself because you can’t and you can’t because you are in such ‘wrong work’ as a human being that you can’t accumulate the necessary finer inner energies. So, if you are a “liberated” ex-Fellowship member advocating the general mentality of ordinary life to others my advice is to stop the celebrations because there is probably nothing to celebrate about, you are still a sleeping machine. That’s one idea that won’t go away because it is an objective fact whether you understand it or not.

    Just to clarify my position so there is no misunderstanding: I’m not walking around in cosmic consciousness, but I have enough self-awareness to realize that just being physically alive and out of a cult is far from the ultimate realization of existence. Rising out of the FoF back up to the level of ordinary life does erase the fact that ordinary life and the mentality that operates it is a trap. Life is an uncompromising test whether or not you will realize that you have no conscious soul and then make the necessary effort to develop one.


  284. on 03 Aug 2007 at 3:24 am262 Janna
    “Dear former student,
    I just express things to the best of my English abilities.
    I think it is obvious that whatever I write here reflects my own prospective and experience, not some universal one as you said (how in the world would I or anyone know the “universal prospective”?)
    So may be I don’t use the word “mine” enough… But I am only able to say things from my own prospective, how I see it, the way it works for me… I assume it is obvious. We all speak from our own prospective, we have to. No one knows for sure for another.”

    Dear Janna
    Unfortunatly what you write here does not implicitly imply what you feel about anything it only reflects what you write. This form is only writing words on a screen. It does not reveal how you feel, or your underlying attitudes. You maybe a wonderful person, have the purest motives a really fine intellectual perspective but I cannot assume anything about what you are writing. I only see the words on the screen.

    I make a point of being logical and argumentitive about something like non dualism because if you are going to speak to others about ideas, especially those relating to forms ands levels of understanding that can only come with a certain state then be clear that is what you mean.

    This is not a small point but a massive one. In life a failure to do this has resulted in endless misunderstandings and wars.

    All that is requiered is to use IMO ( In my opinion) to clarify what you are saying.

    If non duality is to have a transformational energy for someone it needs to be heard as something new and not a negation of other things.

    When you or anyone says “what you think , feel, understand and believe is false and here’s the truth ” it does not always produce a positive open desire to hear what comes next.

    OK, this is not what you meant.
    It is what you said however.
    It deserves a reaction
    and those members of the Fellowship of Friends
    who are in the habit of speaking like this
    or believing it when others use this “voice of god” tense need to begin to see that it refects a thought habit, an attitude.

    The attitude that there is one universal truth for everyone and that you know it or believe that someone else does.

    I chose to use the language of the system. But I have a different relationship to it after 27 years of different experiences than those in the Fellowship of Friends.

    I used the description of each of us being like one leaf on a tree. One of our primary roles in helping each other is to be able to see and describe what makes us individuals.
    This helps us develop a picture of the larger whole or reality we are part of. If you say there is no individuality then what? No larger whole? No shared reality?

    Theoerticaly non dualism is not that good a tool. When it says we are all a like, that there is no larger whole, that there is no process only the eternal now, it is saying that the process of writing, communicating and trying to help others through the blog does not exist. You say I just want to discuss, communicate , share ideas, Why?
    if there is no time or process?

    The system is one model of the Universe My model allows there to be an infinite number of models , experiences, theoretical frameworks, realizations and explanations all equally true or false, all incomplete)

    In my model all things seen and unseen arise from one creative source and all things seek to return to their creator. Time is implicit in creation because time is the first order of creation. Out of itself the unity creates a “something” immediatly this occurs time exists because now there is unity and not unity a time when there is one and a time of three. There is no two. Two is an illusion. Two is maya, three is the face of God. When we see the law of three at work around us we are experience the moment of creation which is always the eternal now.

    Non dualism may serve to create a certain state but then fails to explain the everything else except that state. This seems similiar to the false idea of self remembering cultivated in the fellowship of “presence” to the exclusion of past and future. Of self remembering to the exclusion of critical thinking “Independent being menatation”, conscience and individuality.

    What is the correct model of self remembering.
    Look at the cover of the paper back 4th way.
    Whoever did the illustration had an interesting idea
    of a six dimensional self
    a lower and higher a past , present, and future self
    all bound together in this moment.

    If non dualism works for you,
    if it produces a state or understanding that is good.
    But try and express it in a way that makes sense.
    That indicates that it is a personal experience
    It will not hurt your experience and
    it may make it more palatible for others.

    I mean be serious did you honestly expect to say
    “there is no time” “There is no process” and have no one disagree?

    This is not irrelevent to the discussion of
    The Fellowship of Friends because
    a lot of what the Fellowship has been involved with over the years involves ideas and thinking about them.

    The ability for independent thought is an important tool apparantly not highly prized or developed in Fellowship Members.

    Also finding a language that allows various possibilities to exist rather than limits to one accepted veiw is a productive process in itself.

    Implicit in my understanding is that I may be and from one point of veiw am completley wrong. So?
    Being right is not really that important.
    Being able to be wrong is of much more usefullness.
    Please do not let my being a grouch unduly influence you.

    I try not to identify with it myself.
    It is my gift to others in the Gurdjieffian sense of being an unpleasant being manifestation.

    Since in a nondualistic framework there is no time, process or change It seems I am stuck with it.

    On the other hand I do not demand you accept or believe anything I write and I will probably not take your money and demand sex from you and or your husband, or lovers.


  285. (correction)

    Imagining that you are “waking up” or even could “wake up” in a psychologically rotten cult like the FoF is insane, but having left that cult then wandering around imagining that you are just “roses, roses” and there is no need to wake up because life itself is the meaning of life is even more insane. People are asleep, meaning they have no real idea what they are doing or why, so naturally they want to justify what they are doing (which in most cases means imitating everyone else around them) for reasons that are entirely unconscious in origin. Joining the FoF was no accomplishment, you were a wrong magnetic center finding a wrong school, leaving the FoF is an improvement but it is not an end in itself. There is still something wrong with you and something wrong with life in general: you don’t remember yourself. You don’t remember yourself because you can’t and you can’t because you are in such ‘wrong work’ as a human being that you can’t accumulate the necessary finer inner energies. So, if you are a “liberated” ex-Fellowship member advocating the general mentality of ordinary life to others my advice is to stop the celebrations because there is probably nothing to celebrate about, you are still a sleeping machine. That’s one idea that won’t go away because it is an objective fact whether you understand it or not.

    Just to clarify my position so there is no misunderstanding: I’m not walking around in cosmic consciousness, but I have enough self-awareness to realize that just being physically alive and out of a cult is far from the ultimate realization of existence. Rising out of the FoF back up to the level of ordinary life does not erase the fact that ordinary life and the mentality that operates it is a trap. Life is an uncompromising test whether or not you will realize that you have no conscious soul and then make the necessary effort to develop one.


  286. More Rushkin for those who like such ‘perception’:-

    Frondes Agrestes
    Principles of Art
    4. Had it been ordained by the Almighty that the highest pleasures of sight should be those of most difficult attainment, and that to arrive at them it should be necessary to accumulate gilded palaces, tower over tower, and pile artificial mountains around insinuated lakes, there would never have been a direct contradiction between the unselfish duties and the inherent desires of every individual. But no suh contradiction exists in the system of Divine Providence; which, leaving it open to us, if we will, as creatures in probation, to abuse this sense like every other, and pamper it with selfish and thoughtless vanities, as we pamper the palate with dealy meats, until the appetite of tasteful cruelty is lost in its sickening satiety, incapable of pleasuer unless, Caligula like, it concentrates the labour of a million lives into the sensation of an hour,—leaves it also open to us, by humble and living ways, to make ourselves susceptible of deep delight, which shall not seperate us from our fellows, nor sacrifice of any duty or occupation, but which shall bind us closer to men and to God, and be with us always, harmonised with every action, consistent with every claim, unchanging and eternal.

    Now do we know what Burton is about?…..Nigel.


  287. 287 Graduates.
    hi, What you have just expressed is a bit like walking around in a thunderstorm with a fork held up! Which I once did Btw.
    Here comes the lightning….. Im glad it didnt when I held the fork up, but it created a lot of presence.
    Good luck and be well.
    lty Cy.


  288. Hello Fat Boy, welcome back!
    Yes, I laughed too about the perfect timing of Joseph’s and mine posts. Life is full of humor, isn’t it. :)

    I want to say something about “going against the mechanics” “stimuli response machine” and “I’s machine is producing.”

    I came to see that none of this stuff prevents or affects awareness. It is very liberating to simply watch I’s come and go, to freely express whatever comes, and yet – to be fully aware, to be there, to exist and vividly experience everything.
    The student you mention was right of course – don’t believe the I’s. But also why fight any I’s, or ANY mechanics, or ANY responses? Why go to mental inner battle if it all simply comes and goes, appears and disappears – so why grab and hold on and make a big mental deal? And who is this “guy” in you who will do all that trying, and resisting and fighting? Isn’t he simply imagined after all, just another thought?
    I see that we are not producing these I’s. They pop in our heads so to speak. I see no conscious choices here. We also not consciously producing the responses or our mechanics – it’s just what it is, spontaneous, immediate, comes up naturally, very individual in any case, unique and beautiful. Again, I don’t see conscious choices here.
    Interestingly, most recent neurological researches start to prove empirically the illusion of self-will. It’s so fascinating, and I have a feeling these new findings will eventually change the whole way we look at our society … I may be able to dig up the link to an article if anyone is interested. I also may have some printed stuff which I can scan and send too. (Malaec at optonline dot net).
    I came to understand that it is exactly this mental desire to fight ourselves, to resist, reject and change – that prevents us from simply being, accepting reality on its terms and living freely and happily in the present.
    Acceptance for me means just taking life as it is, on it’s terms, whatever it brings – no personal mental alterations by “me” anymore!
    Do I know what will be shown to me next? No. Do I know my next thought? No. Did I choose this machine and it’s mechanics? No. Can I just stop being, thinking, eating, aging? No. So where is this idea of changing oneself comes from? Is it “mine”, was any of it ever “mine”? No.
    So I understood it and relaxed! And just live and enjoy various experiences. Feels great.

    It is astonishing how much talk is done about “moment is perfect”, “accepting the moment”, “simply being present to your life”, “be yourself” – and in the same breath: “Let’s change it!”, “Let’s fight our mechanics”, “This shouldn’t be here” etc…
    Don’t you find it strange? Which is it – “accept as is” or “resist and change”? Let’s make up our minds already.
    Also, we all tried changing and resisting for many years and didn’t quite found lasting peace and presence. So how about just for sheer fun briefly try another approach? Just for the heck of it? To see what happens? Just relax and don’t even try to change anything, not a thing. Watch it all, as it is, whatever it is, watch it com and go.
    The personal “doer” and “changer” may suddenly dissolve, fade away, and what’s left is simply life, nothing else, just this, very light and simple. And also engaging and fun.

    Man, did it work for me. Too bad no one told me this stuff earlier!

    P.S. Now, Former Student – I am being a good girl and used a lot of the word “I” and “mine” in this posing, so please don’t pick on me, OK? ;)


  289. “veronicapoe:
    Emotional Cutoff: Bowen Family Systems Theory Perspectives, Peter Titelman, editor.”

    This is great.. thanks for the lead!
    —————
    unoanimo: “Subtle negativity?”

    Yes! Passive/aggressive behavior is one that needles another person till THEY express the negativity that one wants to express. Then the passive/aggressive one gets to sit back and watch the negativity get expressed, gets to feel it and experience it AND to judge it. Judge it openly which continues the cycle.

    And not just open obvious ‘negativity’ but it would include making another person behave in a subservient way and have dominance over that person. To force a person into submission IS an expression of negativity. One gets to see the suffering of the other person, and gets to feed off that. And then one gets to judge it and condemn it and to feel superior because “I” am not like THAT!

    —————–
    “inneraut: Once you’re out of the FOF environment, not just physically but mentally as well, the false categorization of oneself into “good” and “bad” may become blindingly obvious. With any luck, you’ll see that the whole notion of a “work personality” or “true personality” is inherently false, and is a primary tool of the organization to promote conformity and obedience, at the expense of something more closely resembling who you really are, which ironically becomes more and more suppressed”

    IMO

    Being overly concerned with the superficial ‘I’s, the quantity, and how to categorize them, one misses getting to know oneself in a deep psychological way. Its always just skimming the surface. It misses being present to the uncomfortable parts of the soul, the unresolved, conflicted, hurt, screaming, nuts, wolf, furious, obscene, raging parts. (where bad language is fluffy) It buffers them. But if one lets them be and gets to know the beast and even gets to love the beast then one can get to the quiet peaceful parts of the soul. And one will not be ruled by the beast but will have a wealth of energy and life available.


  290. 255 unoanimo

    Although it seems you’re still playing the ‘Fellowship games’ by adding the “full moon” thingy; is that supposed to excuse you for being “just an grouchy old man”? Is that a justification to be an effect upon another friend via the moon and not oneself? You’ve watched my back at times ‘A Former Student’, I hope you don’t mid me watching yours a little…

    Your just jealous because I ignore you?
    So heres proof I read a least a little of your post’s

    Explain how the Moon became ” a fellowship thingy”
    What does this mean?
    Only Fellowship members see an imaginary Moon?
    Only Fellowship members believe the tides are controlled by the Moon?
    Only Fellowship members imagine a spaceship went to the Moon?
    Only Fellowship members believe or even can feel the effects of that rather large rock over there?


  291. A passionate man discusses Al-cia-da and the Bushstapo.

    ltya.
    Cy anide.


  292. Laura,

    Thank you for the thoughtful post 285, it is helpful.

    Best to you.


  293. Dear Former Student,
    Thanks for your letter and time you took to write it.

    “If you say there is no individuality then what? No larger whole? No shared reality?”
    I don’t think I said anything about lack of individuality or uniqueness. There is plenty of individuality and variety – it is pretty obvious. Do we look alike, do we act alike? Of course not, we are all so unique. I was talking not about individuality, but about our imaginary identity, (or “imaginary picture” – very precise 4th way term by the way.)
    To my observation, there is a mental image, a concept of ourselves that we think is actually us and it starts with our name. This turns out to be an illusion – I am not that mental projection. But amazingly, this mental concept has a huge impact on how I lived my life, it’s like a “second voice”, or a loop in the mind – and experiences get filtered through this and lots of suffering is created. In a way we live life “through” this artificial lens. No wonder things are so f-d up!
    Seeing this “identity” as a false image brought a huge inner relief for me. It’s like removing a mental block that was distorting natural flow of things. It didn’t affect my individuality, character, expression, creativity – it had nothing to do with them in the first place it seems. Nothing was added, but something was rather removed and it profoundly changed things for me.

    “Theoreticaly non dualism is not that good a tool. When it says we are all a like, that there is no larger whole…”,
    – I have to say that I am not at all a “pro” in non-dualism and never claimed to be one. However I don’t think that this is what non-dualism says – there is no larger whole and we are all alike. The way I understand it – we are all different and unique as humans, but this is a manifestation of One whole, one source. So in our core we are that Whole, consciousness manifesting as many forms… As you put it: “all things seen and unseen arise from one creative source and all things seek to return to their creator.”
    As for “all things seeking” – I don’t know, not sure about it. When I look at my flowers and cats – they don’t seem to be troubled or seek much, they just are, very accepting, not complaining. But most humans seem to be troubled and seek some satisfaction, completeness, improvement, happiness or peace… It seem to be purely “human “ disease – lack of acceptance and desire for change.

    Non-duality helped me to see that I actually never left, or “departed” from the Source so to speak, that the “departure” was in my mind only. I saw very clearly that I was always That, always, but somehow got into thinking I was some(body) else with problems. So the whole trip of losing it and then desperately striving to get back home was in my head! How funny! How many years did I spent trying to reach what was already always mine, closer than my own breath? How much money did I give to buy my own Self that was with me all the time?
    And lately all things are somehow fine with me, whatever things happen. I just do what needs to be done, no usual voice in the head judging or rejecting, or approving. The inner sense of “lacking” something is completely gone, and this is the biggest relief.
    And I don’t mind being wrong, right, or a complete fool too.

    Dear Former Student, I used to write about this stuff without using word “mine” much not because this is “God talk” or ultimate truth, no. It’s simply because I honestly don’t feel personal about it at all. I don’t think we “own” much here, including stuff, bodies, thoughts…
    I certainly can call it “mine” if it makes it more palatable and more polite.


  294. on August 3, 2007 at 8:02 pm if memory serves

    KA #293 Thanks for the excellent and clear description of passive/aggressive behavior. The whole subject of the expression of negative emotions is certainly one that I, for one, am interested in. 10 impressionable years a long time ago of very confusing input on the subject is certainly not helping any.


  295. 298/if memory serves

    The whole subject of the expression of negative emotions is certainly one that I, for one, am interested in.

    I recommend the following book, the best I have read about human emotion:

    Shame and Pride: Affect, Sex and the Birth of the Self by Donald L. Nathanson.

    An excerpt from the book can be found here:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=OvsB3NG-TN0C&dq=pride+shame+nathanson&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=SVpA1TKK04&sig=TbfJHGqpE2mY8Q63YMSv3LrI-00#PPP1,M1


  296. Its good to see the entire American media isnt owned.

    Cy and hide.


  297. on 03 Aug 2007 at 5:30 pm

    290 nigel harris price

    very excellent selection Nigel

    associativly it is possible to create a form of consciousness in the instinctive center through fear. This can be mountain climbing, sky diving, rollar coaster, the problem is that it for some instead of character and self control it seems to require greater and greater shocks and build a stronger desire for more. Just so with Robert’s “alchemy”.

    An extreme form of this is madness that makes individuals take pleasure in others pain. There are humans who hunt and kill others for sport, fun and to feed an instinctive desire. I am fortunate in only having read about or seen such things on Television or movies. Even the act of thinking about such things is repellent.


  298. Janna, #292 — Very well put. I think we have arrived at much the same place. Thank you.

    KA, #293 — I think we are saying the same thing. For me, life feels so much “cleaner” without having to pigeonhole every thought, feeling and experience. It’s enough to simply watch with the awareness that I don’t really know what’s going on in any kind of deep level. Who am I? Where did I come from? What are other people, really? Where is it all going? I have no idea, and it feels very good to admit that to myself. At a certain point, the 4th Way just began to seem like a bunch of lies — or at best, theories.

    Graduates, #289 — you know I am your friend, and I don’t intend to undermine you in any way. But when you say, “Life is an uncompromising test whether or not you will realize that you have no conscious soul and then make the necessary effort to develop one” — my question is, how do we know anything about souls? I don’t know if I have one or not, and I see no way to verify it one way or the other. It sounds logical, perhaps, but to KNOW it, the way I know that I have hands that are typing right now — I just don’t see it. Perhaps you do, and if so, no one can take that from you. Personally, it’s just words to me.


  299. Thanks, veronicapoe, #299 — I read some excerpts from that book and it looks fascinating.


  300. 280 Innernaut

    beautiful post, I added it to my ‘true’ document.

    I spoke to someone last week who said about the blog:

    “they just don’t get it”

    Your post reminded me of how I used to say that about life people. When it was still ‘we’..

    A wall I could see through now?

    Being in, being out psychologically..

    It’s mindboggling


  301. The anti-cult movement (ACM) attempts to raise public consciousness about what they see as dangerous and authoritarian mind control cults and doomsday cults. Most do not care about the faith group’s theology. They target only what they see as deceptive practices, and dangerous psychological pressure techniques, such as brainwashing. The ACM appears to hold opinions about the effectiveness of brainwashing that are not shared by the mental-health community generally. They see mind control/doomsday cults as a widespread social problem.

    A cult is considered a small, evil religious group, often with a single charismatic leader, that engages in brainwashing and other mind control techniques, believes that the end of the world is imminent, and collects large amounts of weaponry in preparation for a massive war. The earliest use of this meaning of the word is believed to have been in a 1965 book by Walter Martin “The Kingdom of the Cults”


  302. Well, you don’t like my postings.

    That’s very nice. It means I archived my aim-

    To show you your face.

    And if you still have a doubt, here are the quotes from You, being nice and wide awaken expressing your best.

    Part 1(5):

    14 Purchasing awakening

    An attempt to force one’s view:
    “Main thing is money and sex and it has always been this way from day one. This is the only driving force behind RB and FOF.
    Being rude:
    Open your damn glossy eyes already!

    Sarcasm:
    ST, make sure to complete all your sequences before the shop closes down!

    18 Bruce:

    Sarcasm:
    You are asking the sheep to comment on being sheared? They think they’re just getting their belly scratched.

    28 Bruce:

    Rude and negative:
    You have become a parasite feeding on the blog. Do you know what a remora is. It’s that parasitic fish that attaches itself to the life of a shark, or whale or manta.

    more from the guy:
    That’s you, my cowardly troll. Come on, identify yourself. Show some balls. Are you so aware of your own absurdity that you will not own who you are?

    31 dick moron:

    sarcasm and negativity:
    Really? You say RB is a human being with flaws. I hope RB never hears that you wrote this statement. Maybe he has changed his inflated view of himself and his god-like status since I knew him, but if he has not, you would be in some deep shit for making such a blasphemous pronouncement on his level of being. Watch out!

    35 Bruce:

    rude:
    Really? Did you pull that out of your ass all by yourself. You are a deeply disturbed individual. It’s good that you’re in the FOF…it’ll keep you off the street.

    37 Graduates

    Generalization, false statement:
    The Fellowship of Friends is based on a form of false personality that is actually below the level of ordinary life. You imagine that you are conscious but in fact you are psychotic. What you mistake for self-remembering is actually increasing your vanity from mere false personality into something far more hideous.

    39 Bruce

    Really. If you believe that what the hell are you doing here, you arrogant little twit.?
    You, and the rest of the homunculi are perfect examples of why people should pack their bags and get the fuck out before they’re broke and are forced to stay where they are.

    52 cyclops

    rude and arrogant:
    Subjective morality.. yes true you do appear very subjective.
    Fathead boy..
    Simple way too simple truth.
    If you people are real then I am sorry for you and hope you recover!

    Stick your head back up your ass!
    You are that unusual entity, an asshole that talks and of course it talks shit! hope you recover.

    (he like a word recover, maybe a doctor)?

    76 Bruce again:

    it’s just Bruce, nothing new:
    My language…? I would assume that the higher men that the FOF is producing would enable one to not be offended by “words”. Are they impinging on your efforts to take in higher impressions?
    Fuck you very much.

    80 ‘I see’ said the blind man

    insulting:
    The FOF council of parasites and losers

    86 classical Bruce

    Well I guess you told us. And here we thought otherwise. Looks to me like we’d better re-join, and get our minds right.
    Or, you could just get bent.

    87 unoanimo

    rude:
    Yet, deep doo doo might just be what you’re GENERALLY into anyway, so, well, can’t say I didn’t tell ya so…

    89 Bruce:

    rude and insulting:
    Or it could be that we, or I, are not yet worthy of your more evolved beatitudes, unless they are surrounded by the respect you no doubt feel you deserve.

    And don’t let me keep you here. I’m sure the captive audience of your peers would love to sit at your feet and listen to your pontifications. Why cast your pearls before swine.

    96 2b:

    as long as it it’s not against us, send big fucks to every FOFer:
    Egads. Bruce, would you be so kind as to drive home your point more gently next time?
    Kidding.
    Personally, I’m much more concerned about the posting of lies on the blog than four-letter words.

    And to conclude the first 100 posts, as few jewels from Bruce:

    Then get the hell off the blog.
    That’s too bad asshole.
    Anything else I can give you to motivate to crawl back under you rock?

    ———————-

    So, Dear Friends, how do You like it?

    I like it very much. Guys like Bruce… I mean I love the guy, he’s just like me, no BS man, but on the other side of what ever…

    To conclude I will quote Janna, now it applies to you:
    “Frankly, your postings kinda suck, they are bitter and cowardly stabs, – so few people told you to get lost and not to take real estate here.”

    And if you still don’t get it, read the quotations above again.


  303. 264 Janna

    I don’t seem to find any logic in your answer, I hope you did not get upset about what I wrote.

    You asked me why am I here
    I said : “Why do you ask?”
    And you say: “It really doesn’t matter. In fact, no one seem to give a crap…”

    Confusing it is.


  304. 263 Joseph G

    “Lately the non-FOF-and-therefore-more-positive-more-hopeful-more-constructive-less-sinister themes have been very rewarding for me personally. Thank you all.”

    Oh really, you probably did not read the against-FOF-and-therefore-less-positive-less-hopeful-less-constructive-more-sinister ones.

    Take a look, it is number 304.

    Hope you like it.


  305. 275 unoanimo

    Well, I’ve been asked 4 or 5 times: “What are you doing here?”
    It just got me. And there was the answer.

    I agree with you, it’s just a blog.

    And I hope nobody is trying to have a monopoly here.


  306. Ha! Thanks for a bomb – it was too quiet, now expect the fight to continue…

    Who Knows, you sound familiar…

    Why do you make so many efforts to create an opposition? I think you attract a lot of negativity because you provoke it. Maybe you want to prove to yourself that we are bad guys here on the blog and you don’t have to change anything in your life? Maybe it is a buffer? OK, we are very bad guys – rude and mean, now – does it make you feel better? You can stop photographing us and go in peace now. But maybe you want to make us feel sorry and come to the meeting with Robert so we become “good guys” and – happy end? It seems to me that you are missing the point – the point is that we don’t trust RB – don’t take it personally. We are not so mean deep inside…


  307. 178 Sharon

    Yes, you are right. Only the system you are applying this is not correct.

    Let me explain. If one is in FOF or any other Religious-Spiritual-Self_Development organization, you can’t impeach the “president”. You either leave or stay.

    And that is based on the nature of such organizations.

    I will write more on this in responce to:

    174 Old Fish In The Sea


  308. 308 somebody

    Thanks, I’m not mean either.

    You don’t trust RB, fine with me.

    But, if you fanatically scream “Burn FOF, burn”, as someone did awhile ago, please forgive me if I take it personally. Seems natural, since I am still a member.

    I do not create an opposition, it is here already.

    If anyone would make the effort to cease the opposition I would support them.

    I know you are not bad, guys, we are all very similar.

    But somehow, reading this blog does not make me happy, or wise, or conscious. And what is left?

    Hope you understand.


  309. Hello ‘A Former Student’ ~

    You wrote ~

    “On the other hand I do not demand you accept or believe anything I write and I will probably not take your money and demand sex from you and or your husband, or lovers.”
    ____________________________________________

    “Probably not take…” ???

    Ah, no, ‘A Former Student’, I am not jealous, actually after reading your last line to Janna, I, well, you know, am not concerned about myself in light of my connection with you, rather, you in the light of your connection to you…

    What’s up with the “probably”? Do you doubt that the answer as to whether you would do the things Robert Burton does is not a firm ‘no’… how could it be otherwise?

    With a ‘maybe yes, maybe no’ atmosphere surrounding someone considering the same avenues taken by Robert Burton, concern for my posts being read by such is the furthest from my heart.

    ____________________

    Arthur ~ Your state of affairs, the not having of things, beautiful; I have no doubts… The ‘Matrix’ is by no way ‘a must’…

    Too bad the Fellowship of Friends is a School of Relative Awakening (maybe not, considering it’s ‘form’), with a dash of Joseph Campbell and some esoteric ju-ju, the keying of the Matrix would be a beautiful project, particularly when considering that it belongs to the whole world and not Robert Burton’s bedroom-wiseacring taking place between bouts with his reckless sexual & spiritual predatorship of his students, their wives and ‘jealous’ (for what reason, only Mammon knows) friends.

    Take gentle care my friend.
    ______________________

    l.t.y.a.


  310. 287 Graduates: “Just to clarify my position so there is no misunderstanding: I’m not walking around in cosmic consciousness.”

    Actually that’s exactly what you ARE doing, believe it or not!

    RN


  311. Hello ‘Who Knows’ ~

    Your aims are a bit ‘off’… The sort of level of rudeness you’re really looking for, I mean the deep, profound sort of rudeness, not the sort that friends use in bars and playing pool so to snap the other out of something they’re stuck on, which does not contribute to the growth of the friendship, but rather their ego…

    You’ll find it in Robert Burton, in his bedroom, downstairs to the left of his private wine cellar and within the myriad of faithful excuses you apply to his ‘Benefit of the Doubt’ alter…

    Personally, I would never want any sort of Benefit that derived from the energizing of doubt… yet, to each his own.
    __________________________________________

    l.t.y.a.


  312. 310 Who Knows
    I don’t recall anyone screaming fanatically “burn FOF, burn”. I hear rather “stop the crime!” or “help!” type of screaming. I am sorry this blog does not make you happy or wise… To me there is a lot of material to think about.


  313. 304 Who Knows
    well it seems you read the post more closely than I
    that’s good it lets us all know that there are members reading and thinking about the blog.

    I do not find your posts offensive they are just your way of saying hello.

    So Hello. Got anything worth saying?

    one of the central topics is Robert’s abuse of the Fellowships funds for his own purposes and continuing sexual relationships with students.

    Do you know anything about this?

    What about his raising money for a personal fund from his already paid for teaching duties?

    Charging for Photo’s, meals, book signings?
    How close are you to him?
    Are you familiar with the Canons? Do you agree with them?


  314. on August 4, 2007 at 12:13 am Laughing Love

    To “Who Knows”

    Someday you’ll look back on your posts here and there will be a great deal of shock.

    You are unclear on the concept.

    You entered this discussion willingly. This discussion has nothing to do with supporting your school. That is the point. We are a group of ex-members who have clearly realized the flaws and corruption and that we were bamboozled and rather boozy.

    Of course you are amazingly welcome here because we care deeply about your well being. I do not wish anyone to go through what I experienced.

    However, it is highly doubtful that any ex-member is going to respond to your posts with the revelation that he or she has made an awful mistake in not continuing membership in the cult. Moving down from that extreme response is the fact that it is also unlikely that any will agree with your general point of view because we are here to discuss the fact that we don’t believe it.

    In addition, you have also been extraordinarily rude and, therefore, cannot expect people to not respond in a similar fashion. It is difficult to comprehend that you cannot see that you entered here aggressively, sarcastically and have called people names. In general, your tone reflects that we are not the chosen ones, but ignorant life people or moon food. That is very arrogant and not nice at all, but is an intrinsic part of your school training, which, again, no one believes.

    In general, if fellowship members participate here with openness and gentility, blog members are very polite and willing to engage with great curiosity. Indeed, when people are curious about why you wish to participate, it is with great concern and thoughtfulness. It is not an attempt to oust you.
    As for the rudeness & crass language, I will admit that it sometimes hurts my sensibilities.

    Nevertheless, I believe that strong words are necessary when dealing with someone who is deeply entrenched in lies.

    Looking back, I wish that someone had stepped in and slapped me silly for believing all the crap.

    It’s like that image in the movies when someone is hysterical and is slapped to bring them back to their senses. We’re just doing it with language.

    I hope I have expressed myself peacefully.

    LL


  315. He who learns must suffer
    And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget
    Falls drop by drop upon the heart,
    And in our own despair, against our will,
    Comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.
    — Agamemnon; Aeschylus
    ltya. Cy.


  316. Who Knows:

    “But somehow, reading this blog does not make me happy, or wise, or conscious. And what is left?”

    Angry. Personally, I’d be angry from what I read. One appropriate use of anger is to advocate for change. AS LOUDLY AS POSSIBLE!!!!

    You attempt to mirror our negativity…and you accomplish nothing but put your own negativity on display for all to see. Is that your aim?

    Anyone can express negativity, few can transform it.

    But you have been warned.

    Your good student act won’t work here. Even your bad student act won’t work here.

    Yet, we will not shun you. We will not excommunicate you. We will read everything you post and respond however we see fit. So keep posting as long as you can! One day you will thank us for being so brutally honest!

    LOOK at all the responses you received even after telling us how rude and negative we are! That’s love. If you express your doubts to Robert Burton or his minions, you are put out on the street like trash.

    So if you are looking for something positive to feel by reading this blog, start by SHARING something positive!


  317. Alice E: I went to those places you recommended and read. I never knew. Thank you my friend for the attention.

    cyclops 317: AMEN

    Unoanimo: I grabbed one of the life jackets you throw in this turbulent sea a long time ago.


  318. i just want to say thanks to the “sheik” for starting and continuing this blog. it is obvious from the number and variety of posts that many of these conversations have needed a forum for a long, long time.

    all the best,

    joseph


  319. on August 4, 2007 at 1:44 am Comic Relief

    Who Knows:
    Posts (so far): at least 27
    Responses or mentions: at least 44.
    Maybe Who Knows IS getting something out of this blog.
    ATTENTION!


  320. #306 Who Knows

    “…you probably did not read the against-FOF-and-therefore-less-positive-less-hopeful-less-constructive-more-sinister ones.”

    Yes, I’ve read them. What I hear is pain, and this makes me question whether I myself in any way contributed through my passivity to crimes against these and other ex-members when something might have been said or done by me. Others were stronger or at least smarter than me, and so they left long ago. Now I discover them again here, intact and wiser than ever.

    You are identified with the FOF so it’s impossible for you to hear anything negative about the FOF without feeling it as an attack against yourself. I was that way too. I used to be the sales and marketing director of RVW. When negative publicity happened I resented it and hated those ex-members who were quoted in the articles. I thought they were liars, weaklings, ingrates. Now I know that the reason they left was connected to a crime that was committed against me myself…only I convinced myself the crime was really an act of love. Now I uderstand it was lust that motivated Robert’s actions in relation to me, once upon a time, maybe before you were born(?), when I was as young as my own naive and vulnerable son is today.

    From this blog and from my friends I have discovered that many were not as lucky as I was. I hear their pain, and it makes it easy to forgive the occasional crudeness of their communication style. After all, why shouldn’t they scream through their postings? It’s the only honest response.

    You are a very sensitive guy when it comes to perceived slights to yourself and your cult, but you seem to lack empathy, and more important, you are deluded. But after all you are a cult-member: you can’t help it. I hope you are able to see this one day; and if you ever do, I hope you will forgive yourself for not respecting these others that you curse at now.

    With love and respect, but not with approbation,

    Joseph G


  321. 314 ~ Somebody ~

    You wrote ~

    “I don’t recall anyone screaming fanatically “burn FOF, burn”.”
    ________________________________________________

    No?

    Burn FOF, BURN,

    BURN FOF, burn,

    Burn FOF, burn with the beautiful fury of your conscience caught by your conscious presence that YOU are YOU and ‘symbols’ are to be excused not bemused.

    Burn FOF, BURN!

    ________________

    So there, now you can both be sorta right.

    So, as the FANTASTIC FIVE once said ~

    “Now, let’s get to the good part, when are we going to get the the good part…?”

    “Who Knows”… See? Relative Awakening disappears once love and all it’s duties are implied and applied; yes, we love you, because that’s all we have left and you?
    _____________________________________

    l.t.y.a.


  322. Here’s something I found to be useful about working with anger, from Wolinsky’s “Quantum Consciousness.” Here are excerpts from his “Quantum Exercise 11:”

    Step 1: Recall a story or memory when you felt angry.

    Step 2: Allow the energy to manifest.

    Step 3: Notice where in your body the anger is occurring.

    Step 4: Notice the size and shape of the anger.

    Step 5: Take your attention away from the story as to why you are angry.

    Step 6: De-label the anger, see it as energy and merge with it.

    To paraphrase the personal account that follows:

    “There was a lot of emotional pain since no one had a way to escape. With no escape, one day I felt so much anger that my body felt like it was in flames and I was on fire. A friend said, “Be the fire, rather than the fuel.”

    What I did was merge with the fire rather than being the one that was burned. Quite instantly, I felt calm, relaxed and more centered…

    Finally, I ask people to BE the emotion COMPLETELY. Merge with the emotion as energy. The results can be amazingly powerful.”

    This is my2bits for all those angry folks out there, myself included.


  323. Innernaut (around) 302

    Graduates, #289 — you know I am your friend, and I don’t intend to undermine you in any way. But when you say, “Life is an uncompromising test whether or not you will realize that you have no conscious soul and then make the necessary effort to develop one” — my question is, how do we know anything about souls? I don’t know if I have one or not, and I see no way to verify it one way or the other. It sounds logical, perhaps, but to KNOW it, the way I know that I have hands that are typing right now — I just don’t see it. Perhaps you do, and if so, no one can take that from you. Personally, it’s just words to me.

    ******************

    You have to be true to your understanding and I have to be true to mine, and of course I understand that even though we have differing views about life we are friends.

    You know that you have a soul and that it is asleep when it occasionally awakens for a few moments.


  324. 324

    “You know that you have a soul and that it is asleep when it occasionally awakens for a few moments.”

    I thinks it’s more that “one” awakens a bit more, periodically, and is able to better acknowledge and “be” with one’s soul’s presence. I don’t agree that the soul “sleeps”, just that our intrinsic connection to it varies with our states. If one doesn’t develop personal methods of connection and acknowledgment, I would guess that there is a chance of some level of atrophy of one’s self. “That” being anything more than a guess would be a lie.


  325. To clarify the last sentence in my last post: I meant that right now, within my personal cosmology, the above seems like it could be true, for me. But I acknowledge that stating this as anything other than a temporary guess would be lying on my part.

    For me, talking about something that is relatively intangible as if one could really “Know” is, at some level lying . The lying comes from any number of motivations.


  326. Internaut “KA, #293 — I think we are saying the same thing. For me, life feels so much “cleaner” without having to pigeonhole every thought, feeling and experience.”

    I was agreeing with you and always like to read your posts! I think I wasn’t very clear. I said “IMO” so as to have the proper language to not get former student on my case ;-)
    ———————
    “my2bits
    Here’s something I found to be useful about working with anger, from Wolinsky’s “Quantum Consciousness.” Here are excerpts from his “Quantum Exercise 11:”

    “Hold to the difficult”…. thank you for that post!

    Ever read the Book of Job? God gets PISSED OFF at Job and then there is this poem part of the book where god shows Job all of creation. The force of anger – the fire and energy of it can be harnessed. Not that I can do that all the time, or most of the time, but have enough that I know it can be done. It is very different from the mere non-expression of negative emotions.

    ———-

    And last, but not least, …. my 10 year old nephew and I had a “Matrix Marathon” and watched all three of the movies. It is best to see these with a 10 year old guy. I got into the philosophy (it is actually really fascinating) and he said of the third “so much Ketchup, so little time”- he liked all the weapons. They are also visual treats and the violence (which I hate and usually will not watch) is so unreal and silly that it is not very offensive.


  327. With the limited experiences we have of higher states, propounding “facts” about these states, from our limited experience, is like getting invited “occasionally” to a very special feast. Going there once or twice, or even 100 times, we are arrogant and self absorbed to think we “know” anything “real” and constant about the people or the nature of the feast. Talking about the soul with any authority is, to me, a sign that one was invited to the feast just a few times, and should be more humble about one’s experience and understanding. I think those who speak like they know, seldom know.


  328. Hello Graduates ~

    You wrote ~

    “You know that you have a soul and that it is asleep when it occasionally awakens for a few moments.”

    ___________________________________

    The less you sound like Robert Earl Burton (here you are not) the better (my opinion).

    Graduates, if you’ve truly graduated, then take off the varsity jacket for god’s sake.

    :._)


  329. Hey KA ~

    You wrote ~

    “(which I hate and usually will not watch)”
    __________________________________

    You don’t have to cover your back in here; first you’re anonymous, two, you’re amongst ex-members mostly and they will not report you (if they are truly X-men) to Robert Burton or Wayne/Helaine for watching the Matrix, which, when considering the level of violence and negativity available is the Sesame Street of such sorts of films…

    Yet, considering the Columbine situation it’s still possible to negativly romanticize anything, afterall, look what Robert Burton has done with ‘The Taming of The Shrew’.
    _______________________________________

    l.t.y.a.


  330. Hi Unoanimo “You don’t have to cover your back in here; first you’re anonymous, two, you’re amongst ex-members mostly and they will not report you (if they are truly X-men)”

    ha ha ha!! But, no, really. I just can’t take certain types of entertainment violence. Not judging (anymore), but I just don’t go for it. There are exceptions and that keeps things interesting.

    And “anonymous”? I feel more exposed here than most anywhere else!

    ————-

    Hi Bruce,

    about the use of the word ‘soul’… I sort of agree, yet ‘soul’ is a poetic term and is innately subtle and colorful. It says much that is unintentional –and that can reveal much. It is decidedly not fof or even 4th way, the term is ‘owned’ by all of humanity. The philosophical argument of ‘already having’, ‘awakening’, or ‘creating’ a ‘soul’ is age old and still always relevant and urgent and worthwhile. The search for the ‘soul’ is the sound of one hand clapping…..


  331. I’m just going, I’m going and I’m gone

    **************************************

    About Leaving The Fellowship And The Live After

    **************************************

    With Christmas 1998 I had made the decision to leave the Fellowship of Friends. This process took me about tree years of thinking (about 30% of the total time spend in this organization). I spoke with nobody about it.

    It would be useless because:

    A) People inside the organization come with argument to stay and rationalize the behavior off the leader. (why? Otherwise they would be out.)

    B) People outside the organization come with argument to leave and condemn the behavior off the leader. (why? Otherwise they would be in.)

    C) People that are in for the wrong reasons and people that are out for the wrong reasons.

    This because we filter the information that comes to him. We see not so much what is there, we see what we want to see on the basis of what we want to belief.

    So I decided to be out and went to the new years party in Amsterdam. I told nobody that I unchained myself from their power, influence and persuasion. Silently inside of myself I said goodbye to them all and silently wished them well. One by one.

    Hard to do? No. Easy to do? No. Happy? No. Sad? No.

    Just an overall feeling of emptiness, not a tragically feeling of emptiness, more the emptiness you experience when you look into the sky at night.

    Can the universe be endless, can there just be ongoing space?
    Can the universe have an end, can space end?

    Was it hard to leave. No. Because the moment I stepped out of the teaching house that night I feld that he who gives force was with me and I was taking the open road again.

    Every end is a new beginning..

    In the ten years after I left got back to college and got my degree in food technology, made in depth studies of writing, marketing, financing and Russian literature. Became a teacher (food technology) and stared a publishing company and went from rags to riches by serving others by making the best books I am capable of making.

    I am happily married (I met her in the Fellowship). I don’t look for ways to produce higher consciousness anymore – but I have a deep interest in the question: ‘what am I – and how is that related to the rest of the Universe?’ and the question: ‘whither we can see the ‘outside’ world or are we endlessly seeing only our self?’ Weekly me and my wife take a long walk in the forest, fields and dunes and while the path moves under need my feed I ponder look around me and these questions.

    When we have dinner in small place at the end of the walk the beer and food washes away all thoughts and we are just plain happy.

    Do I miss the Fellowship of Friends – yes – sometimes I miss some of the people. But I am also very happy that I am not aware of some of them anymore.

    Do I need the Fellowship for divine purposes? No.

    Do they need me for an truly noble reason? Or does the future of humanity depended on me helping Robert Burton with what he does? I don’t think so.

    The Fellowship was an just an (necessary?) note in the octave of my life that I live here – with you my fellow humans – on planet Earth.

    I wish everybody the best

    Thank you for reading, Peter

    Ps: I welcome a good discussion on the question: ‘whither we can see the ‘outside’ world or are we endlessly seeing only our self?’


  332. To L.L,

    Your post is fine and with relativity, I hope it helps Who Knows. You helped me back in part 16 and Janna did also with 277 part 16. (Who Knows, I don’t exactly agree with 277 part 16, but you might read it to help you understand this blog.)

    L.L. You made the statement,

    “In general, if fellowship members participate here with openness and gentility, blog members are very polite and willing to engage with great curiosity.”

    I never felt this from the blog. So be it.

    Joseph, you said in 321 to Who Knows,

    “you seem to lack empathy, and more important, you are deluded. But after all you are a cult-member: you can’t help it”

    I just wanted you to read that again.


  333. unoanimo,

    For me, you give new meaning to ‘Burning Man’.

    Let’s build one 44 feet tall with wings in OH and torch it!

    Why wait for spontaneous combustion?

    (For safety’s sake, we’d have to float it in a lake.)

    I’ve got all my old journals, my infamous pair of pants from Europe, some old photos…all flamable.

    BTW, good job with Res Ipsa Loquitur! You have my admiration and deep respect.

    PS. my2bits

    Thanks for your post about transforming anger! If it wasn’t for the process of ‘reframing’, I probably would have lost the rest of my marbles long ago. When my anger is at myself, I remember to close my eyes and forgive myself, and that form of anger gratefully subsides.

    PSS. Graduates:

    “…there is still something wrong with you and something wrong with life in general: you don’t remember yourself. You don’t remember yourself because you can’t and you can’t because you are in such ‘wrong work’ as a human being…”

    ********
    Greg, I understand you could care less what anyone says to you and screw me in advance for my lunatic response and all that defensive, judgmental crap that you project out at the rest of us here, but I have to ask, if not for me, for the sake of your future students (if you attract any), dude, where’s the light?

    What is “the ultimate realization of existence” of which you speak?…something soul affirming, I hope…

    Honestly, it appears that the self-awareness you claim to have is dedicated to observing all that you are not. Is that how to evolve, focusing on the time you spend asleep rather than awake?

    It feels to me like you are digging in the basement looking for the sky! C’mon up on the roof! The view is awesome! The sky is big enough for everyone.

    I’d love to hear about your successes in your work. Can you share that part of yourself with us instead of being so frickin’ pedantic? How about some ‘views from the real world’ for a change?

    Otherwise you are just parroting what we all read years ago and left behind as dogma. (That’s why unoanimo is on your case about the school varsity jacket. You don’t have to prove to anyone that you are a jock. We get it.)

    Remember: “We see the world not the way the world is, but how we are.” ~Talmud


  334. Hi Fat Boy, you are more and more interesting. It feels like there is a deep conflict in you. From my POV there have been many posts that have been open to you – and ready to change their minds (OK—I KNOW that is bad grammar…but so be it) about your words and intentions.

    I think that some folks – fof and other – mistake form for content. We modified our ‘form’ in fof in a way we mistook for ‘content’ and now refuse to do that. There are a lot of good feelings for all of us – each other – on this strange thingy. This strange blog. That is the content. The form includes ‘bad’ words and saying ‘bad’ things, like “Bullshit”.

    BTW have you ever played the card game ‘bullshit’? Lots of fun especially if there are several teenagers involved.


  335. Hi Ka,

    Yes there have been some thoughtful posts, the one today from Laura was very emotional for me 285.

    Ka, there is probably a deep conflict in everyone on this blog or on earth so to speak. My conflict is more with my instinctive center,money or relationships right now, not so much with FOF. I have had deep conflicts with FOF and Robert in past and have not always agreed with them but it is a PLAY.

    The FOF probably has its deep conflicts, and Robert probably has his.

    Joseph has his. Who Knows has his.


  336. Peter 332
    “I welcome a good discussion on the question: ‘whither we can see the ‘outside’ world or are we endlessly seeing only our self?’”

    I second that. I also find it a very interesting topic. In relation to it I dug up this little story I like:

    The house of 100 mirrors

    Long ago in a small, far away village, there was a place known as the House of 1000 Mirrors. A small, happy little dog learned of this place and decided to visit. When he arrived, he bounced happily up the
    stairs to the doorway of the house. He looked through the doorway with his ears lifted high and his tail wagging as fast as it could. To his great surprise, he found himself staring at 1000 other happy little dogs with their tails wagging just as fast as his. He smiled a great smile, and was answered with 1000 great smiles just as warm and friendly. As he left the house, he thought to himself, “This is a wonderful place. I will come back and visit it often.”

    In this same village, another little dog, who was not quite as happy as the first one, decided to visit the house. He slowly climbed the stairs and hung his head low as he looked into the door. When he saw the 1000 unfriendly looking dogs staring back at him, he growled at them and was horrified to see 1000 little dogs growling back at him. As he left, he thought to himself, “That is a horrible place, and I will never go back there again.”

    Japanese Folktale

    Also, I recently watched the movie Being John Malkovich (for the second time, and getting so much more out of it that the first). There is a wonderful scene in which John Malkovich gets into his own head and all he sees everywhere is John Malkovich, John Malkovich, John Malkovich… Truly hilarious and scary at the same time.
    I highly recommend this movie. It may take more than one viewing to “get it”, it’s so intricate and full of provocative takes on big themes like identity, desire, manipulation, voyeurism, our celebrity-obsessed society, reincarnation, the nature of mind.
    And Charlie Kaufman (the screenwriter) is such a genius in turning all this heady stuff into something so funny!


  337. Hello Peter ~ (332) ~

    You wrote ~

    “Whether we can see the ‘outside’ world or are we endlessly seeing only our self?”
    ________________

    That’s one of those chicken and egg things, I like that; because it points (for me) to a sort of intervention that science at large (and our formal minds) cannot ‘get’…

    For me, the question “Which came first, the chicken or the Egg?” is answered like this ~

    One day a pregnant chicken showed up on earth, built her nest and laid some eggs. Now, where did the Rooster come from? Well, he showed up later or was already included in her egg-clan-plan.

    I ‘think’ I know who you are… Do you live in a very, very cold place and wear hats that look like giant furry mites with wings?

    Back to your quest-ion ~ “Whether we can see the ‘outside’ world or are we endlessly seeing only our self?”

    If you turn it around and face it to the mirror, it reads ~

    Whether the outside world can see the ‘we’ or is it endlessly seeing only itself?

    Sometimes I wonder about all the billions of turkeys, goat, lamb, cows, fish, etc., each year that are consumed; yet they never go on strike, they never decide to stop mating due to the fact that they will be, in most probable cases, ‘harvested’, so to speak… Too, there are the trillions of insects that are eaten by birds, lizards, other insects, etc. They too, keep coming back. Yes, there are some extinct species of trees, mammals, reptiles (even humans), yet, somehow this ‘happened’ and (to me) was not a mass suicide, it simply ‘occurred’… though somewhere deep down, in my romantic, ju ju side, I sense that the cosmic-blueprints for every dinosaur is still floating around in the aether, ready to be sculpted when ‘the time is ‘right’… Yet, this is not to say that every form is static, that an original cannot change or that even it’s reappearance is necessary… Although, wherever the ‘first pregnancy’ came from, I sense it’s this place that we tend to ‘see’ or ‘feel’ when we look up at night at the stars; after all, no matter what Darwin ‘thinks’ he said, we, even as an amoeba, showed up from somewhere… To say ‘Life Happens’ is a bit trampy (my opinion).

    Your question cannot really be answered, because you would have to disappear from EXISTENCE itself in order to verify the answer that would ‘logically’ arrive (without you), and by the time it arrived to show you, you wouldn’t be there to see it… a sort of Catch 22 thing (or not) ~ It feels like it qualifies as Catch 22… ‘Who Knows’?

    Too, I guess it depends on what you mean by “self” and from my personal experience, this solar system is plenty big enough to wonder, wonder, wonder, till the pigs come home to nest…

    The question sounds a bit ‘selfish’ (not that you are being selfish) only that if the entire world was only an outward image of myself, then, certain ‘things’ would consequentially change due to my ‘choices’ and ‘will’, yet, they do not, nor does the ‘past’ reflect what I would today choose to do again, had I the chance to go back…

    It’s an interesting cerebral twister game and twister can be fun to play, particularly with unsuspecting guests who would rather sit around and talk about Bush and Cheney or whether Asaf’s grandmother is going to make a surprise visit to ISIS and kick Robert Burton’s ass on the ballet tennis court…

    I like these ‘twisty’ questions; it humbles us and I feel blessed that we able (my opinion) to formulate such questions that cannot be reconciled by that which bore them upon the surface of gray matter that they now shimmer upon…

    I sense that I can almost answer the question, yet, for myself I will leave the pregnant chicken giving birth to the rooster or him showing up later for the time that the answer truly comes to me, without my knowing of it’s scheduled arrival, it will simply ‘show up’ and there we will be, no better or worse for it having answered my question (perhaps not its, nor even its intent to go around answering questions), simply something that passes through oneself, deeply in love with what we already sense is our inner territory and playground of seriously beautiful meanderings.

    ____________

    Love to you all


  338. Whalerider ~

    Thank you… it helps, those words from you, truly…

    Let’s make it 45 feet; just for the sake of certain ju ju jujus.

    Love to you Whalerider, love to you.

    Love to you all.


  339. Peter #332 : ‘whither we can see the ‘outside’ world or are we endlessly seeing only our self?’

    WhaleRider #334 gave a good beginning for you quest(ion).

    “We see the world not the way the world is, but how we are”.
    Talmud

    My memory is somewhat but I read, “I do not see through my eyes, I look”.

    That’s what I try to do on occasion. Just look. When I start seeing then things slip in like, “that’s a ‘martial’ no doubt about it”.

    Then when I remember I go back to “looking”.

    For those on the brink of disaster: When I left San Francisco I never joined another group because I thought I lost a real school. That was 28 years ago. Here I am back in school. Isnt this blog a reflection of ourselves and another classroom?

    Go ahead jump off that sinking ship somebody will throw you a life-jacket.

    Mr. Goldfinger you and Mr. Haven need to go dumpster-diving and find me a working television and VCR. I need to start somewhere.


  340. Bella Laura,
    beautifull story Gratzi. Thanks for shining a consistently uplifting light.
    Arthur You dont need a Telly, you can get a dvd player and a screen, or a computer which plays dvds. Vcrs are a thing of the past.
    When theres a Telly about it easily takes up time with unintentional crap and propaganda.
    A cheap laptop with built in media program would be ideal.

    ANYONE out there about to upgrade to a new laptop who can donate the previous one to Monsieur Arthur?
    ltya. Cy.


  341. Re: Peter 17/332

    Sounds to me like the kind of question that one can only (fully) answer when in the 4th state of consciousness.

    The question that so much preoccupied Kant, Brunton and Ouspensky (a.o.).

    Our senses pick up stimuli and transmit them to the brain which interprets them for us. In this sense we can never see anything outside: we only see what our own brain tells us.

    I don’t know the answer to this question. But I think a part of it resides with the Higher Emotional Centre – we can get answers from there, because we don’t need to use outer senses for that, we don’t need to look outside (which we can’t do anyway).


  342. PS. Funny, this is exactly the situation that the Matrix tried to illustrate.

    PPS. I expect some very interesting contributions from the non-dualists on this subject.


  343. 304, 305 and 322 are newly moderated.


  344. Fat Boy,

    I understand what it is to be a cult member, and now I understand what it is to have been a cult member. These are very different understandings.

    To be a cult member requires misguided conviction. That’s where the delusion comes in. Robert speaks with complete, possibly unfeigned conviction. He is very magnetic that way, very persuasive. Some kind of reality check mechanism turned off in him a long time ago. Here people tend to call it conscience, but I can’t say for sure myself. Who Knows and other devotees hear Robert’s positive spin on the FOF experience, see Robert’s amazing conviction to the point of absurdity, and gradually find ways to block out any nagging inconvenient truths whenever they present themselves. This becomes their own conviction: an unnoticed internal consent, a quiet decision by default to stay the course with all that is so beautiful and therefore must surely be wholesome (e.g. the literature, the friends, the arts, the impressions of Isis, one’s moments of self remembering), at the price of denying conscience, common sense, standards of decency, family, rational thought, kindness, compassion…all the while claiming these are exactly the values one cares most about.

    Like consciousness, cult membership has degrees. As I myself used to do, you may tell yourself that those overly devoted ones – you know the ones I mean: the fanatics, the ones who are always telling stories about that time they were with Robert, the ones who actually approach you at the potager to give you a photograph about laughing or posture or how happy your kids are and how that is inconsiderate to other students or how much time you did not pause between bites of your meal – yes, these lunatic cultish students are not who you are. You and your closest friends are different. You have learned to play along and take what you need from all of it without losing your sense of perspective. Take what falls into your bowl. You tell yourself that the only thing that’s truly important is self remembering; the rest is optional, a variable tool kit. Find what works for you in the moment and use it. Does the Fellowship have cult members? you ask yourself. Well, yes, of course, but I am not one of them, and anyway that doesn’t mean it’s a cult. That’s their problem. They are casualties of the 4th Way. If it’s real it will inevitably have some casualties, right? I use what I need for my own work and let C Influence sort out the rest.

    These “correct” psychological-thinking attitudes help you stay in “the school” for a very very long time. You can buffer just about anything with these attitudes, and the longer you hold out, the prouder you are of your “survival skills.” That is, unless something hits you head-on one day and there is no way to deny it or make it go away…

    I truly do empathize with Who Knows because I have been a cult member. To have been a cult member means you have been humbled. You know the taste of betrayal, not only by others, by the man you most trusted, but more importantly by your own noblest ideals. To have been a cult member is like to have been an adolescent. How can you tell a teenager anything. Only this: “remember to forgive yourself when you grow up and understand how blind you have been.”

    This is how I see things now. I am simply a man, not a 4th Way inner-circle 8th-lifetime spiritual super hero. I have my family. I have love in my life. I have my ears and eyes wide open. I am in a relationship with my own life. It’s a whole new love affair. After thirty one years I am a beginner. It is okay. Sometimes it’s even downright wonderful. I wish it for you, if and when you are ready to try it.

    Joseph G


  345. #330, KA:

    “I was agreeing with you and always like to read your posts! I think I wasn’t very clear. I said “IMO” so as to have the proper language to not get former student on my case ;-)”

    Thanks! I thought we were agreeing, I just wanted to make that clear.


  346. on August 4, 2007 at 3:20 pm wake up little suzy wakeup

    #348
    A truly heartfelt, powerful post. Thank you Joseph.


  347. on August 4, 2007 at 3:35 pm Brain Police

    Ever notice that an Older Student always remains an Older Student in our minds, no matter what? If a person was in for three years when you joined, they were an Older Student. If they left a year later and you stayed another twenty years, you still think of them as an Older Student.

    Why?


  348. After posting this answer to Yahoo Answers, I realized it might be just as useful here.

    Belief is intellectual, faith is emotional which makes it more powerful. Both are mechanical, which is something people hardly ever recognize. This makes them both a trap 99% of the time. Just read some of this stuff and you will see what I mean. Is it better to hit a tree at 60 miles per hour or at 10 mph? Happy trails to you! Until we meet again! Happy trails to you! …………………………… !

    Forty years ago a friend of mine was all for reverting back to horses. I’m beginning to think maybe he was right. U Know?

    How about this one for the old timers’ sakes? Just to get your juices going after a hard day’s night!

    IMO anyone who is ill has nothing on anyone else. They lack even the rudiments of consciousness and have no license to teach anything to anyone. They are unable to transform negative emotions, thoughts, sensations or beliefs and IMO never have had.

    That’s the spirit, mate! Ooops! Dearest, have a great Bar-Bee-Qyou!


  349. Unoanimo “Sometimes I wonder about all the billions of turkeys, goat, lamb, cows, fish, etc., each year that are consumed; yet they never go on strike, they never decide to stop mating due to the fact that they will be, in most probable cases, ‘harvested’, so to speak”

    OK, this is really a digression…but… My mother is the youngest of 8 from a farm in the midwest and is, among many things, an avid organic gardener who despises container barns. She says, with all seriousness, that food borne diseases, such as bird flu, are the species way of revenge for their mistreatment. Hmmmm
    ————-
    Uno
    “I like these ‘twisty’ questions; it humbles us and I feel blessed that we able (my opinion) to formulate such questions that cannot be reconciled by that which bore them upon the surface of gray matter that they now shimmer upon…”

    Finally! something I know the answer to. The Big Bang happened one day and blew the eggs into the chicken then corked her with a rooster. Since then time has run backwards.
    ——
    Joseph: “I truly do empathize with Who Knows because I have been a cult member. To have been a cult member means you have been humbled. You know the taste of betrayal, not only by others, by the man you most trusted, but more importantly by your own noblest ideals. To have been a cult member is like to have been an adolescent. How can you tell a teenager anything. Only this: “remember to forgive yourself when you grow up and understand how blind you have been.”

    Perceptive and compassionate and inspiring. thank you.


  350. I haven’t read the blog for a while and I have to admit – I feel much better. I realized that when I read the blog I feel that I have to make a decision immediately, and I just can’t yet. I am not ready to sacrifice all my attachments to the School.

    I also completely stopped participating to any events because I don’t see Robert anymore without the judgmental I’s attached to my perception.

    However I experience different I’s (thoughts) which I want to share with you.

    What if Robert is indeed conscious? If he really is conscious then all our experiences connected to the functions (including emotional (our hurt feelings), intellectual (absurd teaching) and instinctive function (sex, money etc.)) are irrelevant.

    Then what is left – his inner flame and our wish to have our own flame ignited by his. The Mystery.
    And plus the environment of Isis which is coherent to the higher state.


  351. on August 4, 2007 at 4:42 pm Bass Ackwards

    348 Joseph G

    Beautiful post. I would hope Fat (thin, handsome, young, vain, instinctively centered) Boy can hear you. The honesty of this blog can feel brutal at times. But this is the Conscience that RB has avoided for 37 years. (no wonder the shit stinks) But we don’t need to follow in those footsteps. Do we?

    I’ve been thinking recently that it is not possible to tell anybody anything, they just have to figure it out for themselves. We can exchange information, but to truly listen to another person and to take what they have to say to us as the Gospel truth? Rare and unusual. (Reading Maharaj now, I get an inkling of this possibility.)

    But to see RB for who or what he is? The Fellowship for what it is?

    I used to think that reform was possible. That somehow, this ark of Self Remembering could yet get back on course. But the deeper I go into understanding the depth of the spiritual error, the clearer it is that the foundations themselves are rotten. I like Ryan O’Poo’s thought that owning consciousness is at the root of what is wrong with both RB and therefore the FOF. So, maybe something will ultimately spring from the rubble? I can hope, but not know. Only try not to buffer what I do know. And that in itself is an accomplishment.

    Good luck to us all.
    Love,
    Bass


  352. Recently the notions of wether the FOF is/was a Cult or a School have become more or less irrelevant to my perception.

    Reading some of the recent postings ,in particular Joseph G, it seems clear that something very valuable was gained from being in the FOF. After all, becoming more oneself,more joyously connected to existence, is no small thing. As I understand it, that means the FOF a least partially delivered on some of it’s promises. Perhaps not as exactly worded in the advertisement but then what ever is? and to use a well used but still true cliche,’ If things could have been different they would have been’ We are all on the same quest wether we be current or ex members of FOF. There has been much talk of responsibility during these discussions. One aspect of that is that we create our own version of reality. In which case all that we have hitherto experienced in our existence is essentially part of ourselves.Looked at like this we see that illusion is well, just illusion.We created/attracted the FOF down to it’s last little and sometimes bizarre detail.The proccess of departing from FOF is a freeing of onself from a particular illusion. I now see that as the ‘Graduation’.

    Best wishes to all.


  353. Hi Peter,
    Thanks for the questions. And Laura, I truly enjoyed the 1000 mirrors story – brilliant!

    Interestingly, the dogs in the story didn’t know they were actually looking at themselves… Their minds told them those were other separate dogs…

    To me, both “outside world” and “myself” are mental constructs, labels so to speak. My actual immediate experience is that there is just pure seeing, and then mind may break it into “outside world” and “myself”. (or any other labeled “pieces”)

    All I can know is this “seeing”, or “cognizing”, or “registering”.
    And all that is being observed exists only IN this awareness, not separate from it or outside of it.
    So, splitting reality into “me” and “the world” is the next step, done in mind only. Look what happens if this step doesn’t immediately occur – where is Me? Where is Outside world?
    In a way, mind is a tool kind of like scissors – slices one whole picture into pieces and tags them. But in my immediate real experience there is no separation, the picture is one, whole, undivided. There is no “me” and the “outside world”, only oneness.

    Here’s one of my favorite quotes, sorry don’t remember where it came from:
    “It can be seen that in it’s essence, everything that is registering in this awareness here, is not different than anything else. It is all just appearances of this one substance in this one awareness.”


  354. Confused post. 353.

    You are at the last hurdle of illusion and attatchment to the FOF that everyone eventually has to pass. ‘Suppose Robert Burton really is concious?’

    Here’s a method that helped me.

    Try to recall a time,experience that you had of being ‘Conscious’ yourself.I believe the taste or experience is the same for everyone,we just talk about or try to explain it according to our individual mind workings

    Recall how the realisation that there is only one ‘intelligence’ ‘god’ Consciousness’ behind all phenomenon including the thoughts and feelings arising in ones own mind as well as everthing observable in ‘reality’ Recall how the understanding that we are all connected,basically all part of the same universal being, produced a spontaneous arising of compassion and love for all other forms. No thought was required for this to occur.
    Now, having recalled this memory or taste of experiencing reality, which i believe is essentially the same for everyone who has had it, try to imagine yourself while in this state behaving towards others as Robert Burton does. Consumed with lust,greed, and a singular LACK of compassion for his fellow man.
    It answers the question from the only place that any question can really be answered.

    Best wishes to you.


  355. on August 4, 2007 at 5:38 pm BRAINWASHED?

    Mind control (brainwashing)

    Mind control is the successful control of the thoughts and actions of another without his or her consent. Generally, the term implies that the victim has given up some basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes, and has been made to accept contrasting ideas. ‘Brainwashing’ is often used loosely to refer to being persuaded by propaganda.

    Conceptions & misconceptions of mind control

    There are many misconceptions about mind control. Some people consider mind control to include the efforts of parents to raise their children according to social, cultural, moral and personal standards. Some think it is mind control to use behavior modification techniques to change one’s own behavior, whether by self-discipline and autosuggestion or through workshops and clinics. Others think that advertising and sexual seduction are examples of mind control. Still others consider it mind control to give debilitating drugs to a woman in order to take advantage of her while she is drugged. Some consider it mind control when the military or prison officers use techniques that belittle or dehumanize recruits or inmates in their attempt to break down individuals and make them more compliant. Some might consider it mind control for coaches or drill instructors to threaten, belittle, physically punish, or physically fatigue by excessive physical exercises their subjects in the effort to break down their egos and build team spirit or group identification.

    Some of the tactics of some recruiters for religious, spiritual, or New Age human potential groups are called mind control tactics. Many believe that a terrorist kidnap victim who converts to or becomes sympathetic to her kidnapper’s ideology is a victim of mind control (the so-called Stockholm syndrome). Similarly, a woman who stays with an abusive man is often seen as a victim of mind control. Many consider subliminal messaging in Muzak, in advertising, or on self-help tapes to be a form of mind control. Many also believe that it is mind control to use laser weapons, isotropic radiators, infrasound, non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse generators, or high-power microwave emitters to confuse or debilitate people. Many consider the “brainwashing” tactics (torture, sensory deprivation, etc.) of the Chinese during the Korean War and the alleged creation of zombies in Voodoo as attempts at mind control.

    Finally, no one would doubt that it would be a clear case of mind control to be able to hypnotize or electronically program a person so that he or she would carry out your commands without being aware that you are controlling his or her behavior.


  356. Dear Joseph,

    Thanks for your response (348). Your style of writing is intense but well mannered and written. Your intense response in 321 to Who Knows seems like a contradiction on some level, but so be it – I was not trying to illicit such a response from you in 348.

    I respect your feelings and future aims. And I really do understand on some level where you are comming from. There is a very fine line between a Cult and a School. I would be “delusional” or buffering if I did not say that FOF has characteristics of a cult.

    In the end, it is my opininion that it is my decision to stay or leave FOF, and only mine; and people who struggle with this or did struggle with it I empathize with but it does appear that you and others need to blame somebody rather than taking some responsibility.

    A classic movie that comes to mind is, “Inherit the Wind” with Spencer Tracey, if your not familiar with it, it is a famous court trial in the 1920’s about religion and Darwinism. You can type Scopes trial on google to get more information.

    Spencer Tracey, the Defense lawyer states what is on trial here is the right to think. This runs very deep for me and I do see some FOF members forgetting to “think” and just having to much faith at times. Equally, I see many members thinking, verifying and weighing things and in the end realizing for themselves that they want to be in the FOF.

    Sincerely, wishing you and your family the best.


  357. on August 4, 2007 at 7:25 pm Old Fish In The Sea

    Deleted – duplicate post. — ES


  358. Dear Joseph G.
    I want to thank you for all of your posts. They are poignant and even painful in their truth. The things you are understanding and sharing are invaluable to all of us. Keep posting. Love to you and your family.


  359. #353 Confused

    “What if Robert is indeed conscious? If he really is conscious then all our experiences connected to the functions (including emotional (our hurt feelings), intellectual (absurd teaching) and instinctive function (sex, money etc.)) are irrelevant.”

    This “what if” type of logic is the great barrier to individual spiritual freedom that keeps cults/religions full of followers. Take your question and replace “Robert” with Pope, Mullah, Ayatollah, Church Elder, Jim Jones, Pat Robertson, Rabbi and so on. It’s all the same superstition and fear. What if, there is a guy with horns and a pitch fork waiting for you in Hell if you don’t put the donation in the collection basket every Sunday at church? What if the mothership from another galaxy is going to land and take back all the faithful to paradise when the earth is destroyed?

    Sheep and cattle are too stupid to question why they are following the herd into the slaughterhouse, but humans have a logical brain, and, more importantly, a conscience. This can make it tougher to control them. Fear of, and an attraction to the unknown is as good as any cattle-prod to keep the human herd in line.

    You will never know the truth of RB’s level of being. But do you want to stay with him out of fear and uncertainty? Sometimes ones instincts (king of clubs) is not such a bad thing. If your fish smells bad, it’s a good decision to not eat it. There is a reason that shit stinks.


  360. on August 4, 2007 at 7:45 pm Old Fish In The Sea

    Sorry everyone – my italics did not work so I have resubmitted my post. I hope this is easier to read.

    To Confused 353:

    You wrote:

    What if Robert is indeed conscious? If he really is conscious then all our experiences connected to the functions (including emotional (our hurt feelings), intellectual (absurd teaching) and instinctive function (sex, money etc.)) are irrelevant.

    Then what is left – his inner flame and our wish to have our own flame ignited by his. The Mystery.
    And plus the environment of Isis which is coherent to the higher state.

    Yes, I believe this is one of the real questions that separates those of us that are out from those that are still in. But you may not need to answer it.

    I had to come to a place where the answer was irrelevant. I came to a place where regardless of Robert’s level of being, after so many years of being in, I knew what I could experience following Robert and despite the seqence and ever new directions, there was not much that was changing in my relationship to consciousness. I was willing to risk losing the connection I had, simply because I felt that my “effective” time was running out. It was time to take a chance, to try to grow some wings and jump out of the nest even if it meant falling on the ground and rotting. I felt that further growth required that I not follow anybody but try to find out who “I” really was. I felt it was time to grow up, and make my own decisions and set my own principles.

    Once I tasted the psychological adventure of leaving, it was easy to go. It is, if nothing else, interesting to leave after many years of being in. It just keeps getting more and more interesting as the FOF layers peel off. The programmed ideas of how people should be are sliding away (and I did not even realize I had them) which leaves room for a growing love that accepts people however they are. The identification with seeking presence is subsiding which strangely leads to a relaxed prolonged presence that seems to last and last and takes me further than the sequence ever did or could.

    I think it is difficult to find your own flame when you are looking to someone else to ignite it. The concepts of seeking, and of the division into higher and lower self deviates us from presence – from what is. These concepts are always begging us to go somewhere else, do something else and be somebody that we are not.

    Things as they are, myself as I am

    Roberts teaching is the antithesis to the sly mans pill.

    There is always an element of risk in any endeavor that is worthwhile. There is risk in staying and there is risk in leaving. Fortunately the risk in leaving is fairly minimal since you can return. Probably the biggest risks are imaginary (related to inner considering if you have to admit that you were wrong). In reality, those that have returned have been well received.

    You have basked in the warmth of FOF presence 1000 times. For some it never gets old. For others it remains pleasant but is not enough. It is just one step on the ladder. It may be only the 7th grade. Life is short and there is so much to learn. There are so many dimensions to life.

    The risk of staying is that you will grow old, even die, and never experience what it is like to be free to grow in the way that your essence requires. What if Robert is NOT conscious and is taking your precious energy, using it in a way that does not reproduce, and destroying your magnetic center while you support his excesses and provide an environment that blocks the true growth of more sincere students.

    Let go of your anxiety. You do not need to decide anything – when it is time to go you simply will be unable to make another payment. The thought will repulse you. The idea of following Robert (or perhaps any teacher) will repulse you. (see post 174) The idea of growing as a human, open to seeing for yourself, without a teacher will excite you. But don’t stop evaluating. Don’t get too comfortable psychologically or you may wake up one day and ask where the last 20 or 30 years went. I did.

    10,000 people have left and they all have a good story. I am sorry that I ignored their stories for so many years.

    We must not stop here, however sweet these laid up stores, however convenient this dwelling…. We are permitted to receive it for a little while….. the inducements shall be greater. Whitman

    Love to All,
    Old Fish


  361. on 03 Aug 2007 at 5:27 pm
    289 Graduates

    I agree 100% although I might prefer a few more “I’s” rather than “you’s” and “they’s”.

    Don’t over react its just grammer.

    My personal preference is to speak in the first person about the subject of awakening because it helps me avoid lying. ]

    I really don’t know anything about “you”, “They ” or “them” I do know somewhat about “my efforts”, “My experiences” and especially about my own mechanicality and sleep.

    So agreed , The situation remains the same “How to be more awake?”what next?


  362. “What if Robert is indeed conscious? If he really is conscious then all our experiences connected to the functions (including emotional (our hurt feelings), intellectual (absurd teaching) and instinctive function (sex, money etc.)) are irrelevant.”

    I had this same question and as a previous poster said, it is one of the last “boogie men” to try and hold you. All I have read about consciousness, as well as what I have personally experienced, includes conscience. It is clear to most of us, in and out and on the fence, that there is something seriously wrong with the FOF and with Robert especially. If Robert is conscious he has crystallized incorrectly and that is all the more reason to get away as fast as you can. Choose anyone from history or from our contemprary world that you admire for his/her virtues and decent behavior and then compare his/her lifestyle and actions to Robert Burtons and you will have the answer.


  363. Hey Fat Boy

    Its Saturday and you are the Saturday matinée. Were did we leave this “play” OH yeah you were leaving never to return to the blog.

    And lo and behold it is a transformed fatboy a little clearer, more articulate and making a little more sense. So perhaps there is something usefull on the blog after all. In spite of the really nasty habit of those nasty bloggers of calling you names and being vulgar.

    It can cause a little second thought about what you post when there are those who will clearly react to and indicate their displeasure with bullshit.

    Particularly that rare , aged, beautifully gilded and packaged BS that has been the main product of Robert Burton for over 35 years. Perhaps there is some feeling of achievement in The Fellowship for having acquired something of value if one can display a really great appreciation of the divine aroma’s emanating from the God of Isis’s rear area’s.

    I am sure that there are those who read the blog who believe that Robert’s sexual activity is all consensual.

    Is this your experience?
    Does he use Fellowship monies to by gifts for his lovers?

    What was it you said all just “normal behavior” to get his own student drunk, pressure them, buy them gifts and withhold things in his power to control is all “normal” between a “divine messenger from his endlessness” and his students.

    Well enough that may kick start something or other.


  364. 227 WhaleRider

    I didn’t just sit down at my computer on a full moon and make this shit up for sake of argument.

    Why not?

    You sure there is no full moon shit going on?

    Your absolutely right.
    Most individuals learning about the 12 steps have a much more immediate and un theoretical approach. Stop doing what ever is Killing you, destroying your life, or driving you mad or end up dead, institutionalized or homeless and on the streets.


  365. To former student,

    It looks like Confused is the Saturday matinee. Nothing has yet transformed in me but thanks for trying to be nice.

    I have already answered those questions you pose in previouse posts, and if you want to kick start something I suggest you be more intelligent about it.


  366. 335 Peter ‘whither we can see the ‘outside’ world or are we endlessly seeing only our self?’

    I don’t think I’m in the fourth state or anywhere close but I’d like to play and share so here’s for you.

    What I see is that you’re posing the question from duality. You and the world. Can you see what of the world is in you? Look at your parents. When I saw mine, I saw about 75 percent of them in myself. Am I them or am I?

    Look at the programming of your nation. Travel and live somewhere else and observe that everything you received from your nation is as much in essence as it is programmed.

    And then there are world currents that most countries are adopting. Many cheap and superficial for young people who get hang up in them. That too is part of one’s self.

    Look at the fellowship and all the programming on music, behavior, presence and nothing else matters. Not any of your previous programming but everything that will not bother Mr. Burton or where you can live suspended in the mid air of your nothingness without having ever understood what your life was about because you were asked to erase it as imagination.

    So if it is possible to verify that we are much of what is outside then it is possible to begin a dialogue with the outside not from the unconscious progrmming that one has received from innumerable sources but from one’s consciousness or unconsciousness if you prefer. It does not really matter how you label it as long as you’re willing to assume responsibility for it.

    I’ve found helpful mapping circles outside of myself that myself is very close to.

    Family, nation, world, I.

    There is innumerous behavior that is mostly my parent’s. Deep programming in the emotional and intellectual center as much as in the other two.

    Also from family come class separations, race, which are then reinforced by one’s nation’s programming.

    All kinds of attitudes.

    These are just words but observing manifestations outside of yourself that you can then recognize within yourself help answer your question more practically because although the scope of our life may be only a small percentage of who we are, it is the scope we are most determined by and identified with.

    On a different scale, I am a microcosmos of the macrocosmos is another way of looking at it, a reflection. So, with all of ones particular curves, one is simply reflecting things from the outside world of which one is also a part but then I think your real question is then, where is the source of life, of love and I would say that it is in how you act now. It is both in our inner and outer actions that we sculp ourselves and the world back or forward into a new form. The world is as much the piece of sculpture as we are, it is in what we do that the knife carves in and redefines as both. It is in how and what we do that the I or will comes to expression.

    I don’t necessarily mean activity per se, but I have nothing against activity. If we understood the inner meaning of making shoes, or dancing, writing or even sleeping, sitting and letting things be done as we observe, they would all be equally valuable. It is the “just making money part” that has stolen the meaning from our lives.

    And then, for some of us, seeing the world as it is and knowing it is just a reflection of one’s self, the best it can yet be but far from what it can become, there’s nothing but to continue struggling against everything that one does not wish to continue being or letting it be, until the end of one’s opportunity to ACT.

    In the fellowship of friends, people choose to starve spiritually supporting a gay man’s imaginary picture, in the third world people starve physically, supporting the first world’s imaginary picture……….until one see’s other options to live and die for.


  367. Going back aways
    on 31 Jul 2007 at 11:38 pm
    170 Janna
    Dear Former Student,
    you said:
    “In non-dualism there is no process of becoming ready to hear the truth, no process of absorbing and making the truth ones own because it admits of no process. This to me is ridiculous.
    Can I see a plant grow, a fire burn, a wound heal?”

    – Well, can you actually see the plant grow? I can’t! I see things as they are now, sort of as snap-shots, and mind later compares, uses memory, makes conclusions and COMPOSES a process. This is what seem to be happening

    I disagree. Connection to the past and future between the higher and lower are part of experiencing the moment. Self remembering is not a limitation on impressions but an opening up to more impressions. Our memories are as much a part of the present as what our senses experience in the moment.

    To take what is perceived by the senses as reality is Maya illusion. I sit here at this computer and look out at the plum tree in the yard,. Many years have I seen the cycle of the seasons and observed the process of growth , the new buds in spring, the blossoms than the leaves and fruit and the barren branches of winter.

    To me this is part of self remembering. If there is a six dimensional universe we need a six dimensional self. Look at the cover of the 4th way. Is that a random design? or maybe there is a meaning.
    IMO Self remembering includes remembering the time body , a spiral, and the future. IT also need to join the lower and higher. This is the role of intellectual parts of centers.

    There can be no “hidden corners”. There can be no growth towards unity as long as there is any aspect of our being we cannot experience without buffering.

    You might say “but we cannot know the future” this is true and this is self remembering of the future the awareness of that unknowable that we are usually dulled to by the action of the mechanical parts of centers. In a very real sense the greater our awareness of and understanding of our inability to know the future the greater our real consciousness as this is a reality.

    One of my favorite Sonnets.
    Shakespeare speaks of observing the process of growth and inevitable decay and the possibility of the creation of something else

    Sonnets of William Shakespeare
    Sonnet 15

    XV.
    When I consider every thing that grows
    Holds in perfection but a little moment,
    That this huge stage presenteth nought but shows
    Whereon the stars in secret influence comment;

    When I perceive that men as plants increase,
    Cheered and cheque’d even by the self-same sky,
    Vaunt in their youthful sap, at height decrease,
    And wear their brave state out of memory;

    Then the conceit of this inconstant stay
    Sets you most rich in youth before my sight,
    Where wasteful Time debateth with Decay,
    To change your day of youth to sullied night;

    And all in war with Time for love of you,
    As he takes from you, I engraft you new.


  368. Post #312 Who Knows
    “You don’t trust RB, fine with me.

    But, if you fanatically scream “Burn FOF, burn”, as someone did awhile ago, please forgive me if I take it personally. Seems natural, since I am still a member.

    I do not create an opposition, it is here already.

    If anyone would make the effort to cease the opposition I would support them.

    I know you are not bad, guys, we are all very similar.

    But somehow, reading this blog does not make me happy, or wise, or conscious. And what is left?”

    Hope you understand.”

    Yes, many do. Why would you imagine that finding out you have been a fool and manipulated by a psycopahtic criminal disguised as a spiritual guide would make you Happy I can’t imagine.

    To take in and process information so counter to all the attitudes that have come to define ones existance as a “student” in the conscious school of the divine Bobbo certainly need to be allower time. It certainly took me time to process.

    To protest in disbelief the revalation of behaviors that just seem stupid on the part of the divine messenger of the gods is a normal reaction. I did the same.

    To feel a personal investment in ideas and attitudes that support ones being in a cult is normal, to feel attacked when they are challanged is normal.

    If you make the effort to go back and read through the whole blog you may find some changes in your own thinking and feelings about the criminal Robert Burton, his corrupted “inner circle” and The Fellowship of Friends.


  369. You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes.
    You can steer yourself any direction you choose.
    You’re on your own. And you know what you know.
    And YOU are the one who’ll decide where to go.
    –Dr. Seuss


  370. Laura, #340, regarding ‘Being John Malkovich’:

    Yes, Charlie Kaufman’s screenplay’s are great. I feel like it’s the kind of stuff I would write if I could write screenplays. I think my favorite is ‘Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.’ Some people dislike this movie for some reason, but it is in my Top 10.

    Hey, how about a Top 10 movie list to while away the August hours? I’ll go first:

    Innernaut’s Top 10 movies (in no particular order):

    1. 2001: A Space Odyssey (Inexplicably, I was taken to see this when it was in theaters when I was 8. Explains a lot.)
    2. 1930’s/40’s screwball comedies: Mr Blandings Builds His Dream House (Cary Grant and Myrna Loy) / The Thin Man
    3. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
    4. Rock Movies: The Last Waltz (The Band’s last concert) / The Grateful Dead Movie / Don’t Look Back (Bob Dylan’s ’65 tour of England) / This Is Spinal Tap / Rocky Horror Picture Show
    5. Any Andy Hardy movie (Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland) — next lifetime, I want to live in that universe, where my biggest problem will be worrying that my jalopy might break down before the big dance.
    6. Musicals: Annie Get Your Gun / West Side Story / The Music Man / Oliver / The Sound of Music / The Wizard of Oz
    7. Lord of the Rings trilogy (big time — I watch it frequently on my iPod)
    8. The Matrix (the first one)
    9. Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back
    10. The Great Escape

    BONUS: The 2 minutes of dancing in ‘Meetings With Remarkable Men’ — kindly dispose of the rest of it.

    LOVE IT BUT SEEN IT TOO MANY TIMES: It’s A Wonderful Life

    Alright, who’s next?


  371. A tiny re-examination of the idea of karma.
    There are many who dont Im sure believe in it, although Im pretty sure that most of us have heard of it.
    The indian teachings talk exstensively about it and elaborate upon it, dividing it into many different kinds.
    Perhaps a simple way to understand it is in terms of cause and effect, not considering for the moment any “third force.”
    In other words if I do this then such and such will happen.
    For example if I drive my car too fast having drunk too much then it increases the likelihood of at sometime having an accident.
    Or if I scowl at everyone I meet on a daily basis then there wont be too many smiles coming my way.
    Theres an old farmers saying that if you fly with the crows you will be shot down with the crows.
    In the same way if you hang out with very violent people then you are likely to experience violence sooner or later.
    According to karma whatever we do comes back to us sooner or later.
    To stick to this lifetime which we are more sure of and not consider beyond that, then what we do in this lifetime is likely to return to us in this lifetime.
    If we eat Rajasic or tamasic foods such as very rich processed and refined foods or foods that have been cultivated in suffering as opposed to satvic foods which create well being and equilibrium then we are entertaining dis-ease.
    Do you think if you eat meat, that if it came from a factory chicken which never saw daylight, was pumped full of antibiotics and fed processed food, or from one which ran free in the sunlight and eat wholesome grains that it would affect you differently?
    If we take this on a finer level of the food of experience then if we “eat” “foods” that are connected at their inception with suffering then do we become complicit in causing that suffering, and does it come back to us sooner or later in some form of personal suffering to us ?
    You can probably guess what Im alluding to here, but in case not, then to be a part of a teaching which creates suffering and resentment in many of its followers, to eat that, then it might create indigestion later or maybe worse cancer.
    Those powerfull emotions have to go somewhere, goodness leads to goodness, other things lead elsewhere.
    There is a cancer in the heart of the Fellowship of friends!
    The doctor has dealt with it by irradiating the whole organism and cutting out any cells manifesting any difference from the other cells, but without treating the cause which is in the anterior pituitary of its body.
    So it keeps producing cancerous cells which have to be removed and it continues in a cycle, but eventually the piper will have to be paid.
    To those friends of ours still in the tumourous body let your conscience hear the voices on this blog, we are the cancer cells which were cut out and dumped for daring to be different.
    For looking into our consciences, considering with our intellects and choosing to create a different karma, one not based on being a part of something connected with causing meaningless suffering.
    I leave you with the words of “G” who I truly believe would be aghast at the suffering created under the umbrella of his name.
    Gurdjieff said “the hardest trial in life is the inability to alleviate the sufferings of others. What makes it worse is that it never serves a usefull purpose – not being experienced for a proper aim “.
    I asked “Robert why do you continue to sexually exploit your students ?” ” I do it to provide friction for them” was the answer.
    Ekh my boy.
    ltya Cy.


  372. #358 Fat Boy wrote:

    “Dear Joseph – Thanks for your response (348). Your style of writing is intense but well mannered and written. Your intense response in 321 to Who Knows seems like a contradiction on some level, but so be it – I was not trying to illicit such a response from you in 348.”

    Hi Fat Boy,

    I have to confess that when I write to people like you, whose real identity is unknown, I focus my words on whatever part of myself you have illicited. Maybe that’s why they come across so rough at times. When I write to people here whose identity is known to me it is on a more personal level, and I factor in what I know about the person (in or out).

    You seem to have thick enough skin, as I do, and I’m sure you will not take anything too personally, right? Your words and your thoughts are well known to me because I was there once myself, not long ago.

    Thanks for your kind wishes, and feel free to write (or call) me directly anytime. I can keep a secret.

    joseph.granados@gmail.com


  373. Fat Boy:

    And what if Robert is conscious?

    What do you mean by “conscious”? Do you mean being in a radically different state of awareness at all times? Does that state of awareness have any necessary implications, such as the ability to be compassionate? Or does it mean the ability to do whatever you please without any remorse, no matter what the effects may be of your actions? If not that, then what do you mean by it? Whatever you mean by it, what makes you think such a thing exists? I would guess you think so because Robert said so, about himself, of course–which puts you in a predicament, doesn’t it?

    What if my dog is “conscious”? Impossible, you say? Silly? Ramana Maharshi didn’t think so. He was asked:

    “Is the individual capable of spiritual progress in an animal body?”

    He responded:

    “Not impossible, though it is exceedingly rare. It is not true that a birth as a man is necessarily the highest, and that one must attain realization only from being a man. Even an animal can attain Self-realization.”

    “The lower cannot see the higher” does not mean I cannot know whether Jesus, or Hitler, or my dog, has something to teach me. If it is impossible for me to know whether a being is “higher” than me, then it also impossible for me to see whether a being is “lower” than me, since the being I imagine to be “lower” may actually be “higher,” and I can’t see that. It may mean “Don’t be too quick to make assumptions about these things because the mind can be very deceptive,” but using it to preclude all possibility of critical thought and assessment is purely a tool to manipulate the credulous Follower.

    Look at Robert and ask yourself whether he has something you really want, that you believe you can learn only from membership in the Fellowship. When I look at him, I see a being who has nothing I want, whatever you want to call it. If that is being “conscious,” I do not want it. If you feel differently, go for it, and be prepared to pay the price.


  374. #362 — Old Fish: It’s worth re-reading, thanks.

    I think there is yet another level to the question “What if Robert is conscious?” That is, one can justify his behavior with the notion that a conscious being does not need to conform to ordinary morality — indeed, that the suffering he inflicts on others is the ultimate form of external considering — treating one the way that is required for one to transform and awaken. If one believes this line of thinking, I think there is one more question one needs to put to oneself — Do I trust him? For me, the answer is “no.”


  375. 376 innernaut, great name.


  376. To Lifer Person 375:

    You might have mixed me up with someone else for I did not make that post.


  377. 375 Life person

    I will try to explain how I think about it.
    If we focus on – let’s say – money, or anything which is OURS – my body, my house, my money, my car, my husband(wife) – it is all very clear and simple – it is MY and I am not giving it away for free.

    Now let’s try to shift our focus to something emotional. Imagine being in love, feeling happy, feeling passionate, grateful, a little drunk maybe – this is when what was so clear before becomes very confusing: what is mine? it is not important, I am ready to give everything for free! I LOVE – this is EVERYTHING, this is SO EMOTIONAL!!!

    And now let’s go further. A shock happens. The loss of love, of a dear friend – you feelings hurt (I personally can deal much better with physical pain than with emotional…) you can’t accept it… it is too much – and in the moment like this we know there is ANOTHER STEP. This is when you know that you are not the machine even though the machine is 99% percent of you – strange, unbelievable and true… This is when everything becomes very very confusing. But I believe these are the times I verified my higher centers, “the beyond” (death and time and body and love)… You know that this is a Play…

    Robert never makes sense to this part of me which is very clear about “my” things (instinctive?). I feel at times a strong love towards him (emotional?). But more vividly he is connected to that state which is “beyond” (when I am hanging with one hand on the cliff of my own being). So this is when I believe that he is present in his higher centers all the time and it would all make a better sense for us if we were in our higher center as well. (He is compassionate, but he knows that this is a play and so appears not compassionate…)

    I hope it makes sense for you. I might be wrong and confused but at least this is sincere.


  378. Some thoughts on leaving the FOF:

    At first, there was the intense fear of “going to hell”, of “losing all that I had gained and more”, of being “cut-off from higher influence”. At first it was a visceral reaction, a physical sense of fear, a heightened anxiety. At the symphony I would be terrified that I might see students (I rarely did). However, I gradually noticed that my verifications were still mine, and I found a fresh ability to examine and let go of assumptions I had adopted but were not really verifications. I don’t really use the words “C-influence” or “gods” much any more, but the world is certainly magical, beautiful, and very interesting.

    I came to understand that my memories were still mine, and that experiences that I appreciated were still mine. I like to invite friends to dinner, to cook all day for them, to sit long into the night and talk with those I love. This experience does not belong to the FOF. I like to play the violin, to be one of thirty or sixty people making music in an orchestra, to dance intimately in a string quartet. This experience does not belong to the FOF. I like to hear others’ perspectives about me even when we disagree, and I like to be able to mentor, assist, remind others. This experience does not belong to the FOF. I like to work together with others, to set out to accomplish some task together. This experience does not belong to the FOF.

    I missed (and miss) my friends terribly. One day I had dozens of close friends, and hundreds of interesting acquaintances, and the next day – all gone (except for my husband who left the FOF several years earlier). I was shunned. One day I had access to pre-arranged social experiences at centers or at The Farm/Renaissance/Apollo, I could travel in Europe and stay with interesting people, and the next day – all gone. It takes more effort to connect socially but when I can, it’s mine.

    I had a strong desire to be ordinary. I wanted to let go of trying to be better than others, and I wanted to see other people as living their lives in the best way they know how. I wanted to truly see them and connect with them without assuming I knew what they were about and what mattered to them. In moments of weakness I might find myself trying to look as though I was remembering myself – and of course this act (somewhat removed, intense eye contact, a bit too stiff, smug) is just plain odd to people without FOF conditioning.

    I had (and still have) dreams. Almost always I am in a social gathering – a party with students and RB. People are dressed up and milling about. RB calls to me from across the room, or one of the FOF leaders sees me and looks menacingly at me – and all of a sudden I realize that I haven’t made any donations in a long, long time. I am very aware of myself. Sometimes I panic and leave abruptly; sometimes I smile and observe. These anxiety dreams are similar to the old final exam nightmares (I find myself in a classroom with a test on the desk and I realize I forgot to go to class all semester). My husband has them too.

    Hope this helps someone out there in blog land.

    SBeMore


  379. Dear confused.
    burton is taking advantage of your confusion in order to gratify his lust.
    Dont be confused about this any longer! many of us have been exactly where you are now and as soon as you deny him you will be excreted. And he wont send you a christmas card, you will be dead meat to him. There are much better ways to get to the same state. He may be present a lot but its not in higher centres If you get deep enough inside your own conscience you will see this.
    You could also try having someone push nails into your hand or having sex with a goat, Im sure it would create the same state for you, its also doing what the machine doesnt want to do, but you can see that it would be a stupid way to go …..you can ….cant you? jeez I hope you can.
    run like hell the succubus is sucking on your soul.
    love to you unconditionaly. Cy


  380. #379 confused

    “Robert never makes sense to this part of me which is very clear about “my” things (instinctive?). I feel at times a strong love towards him (emotional?). But more vividly he is connected to that state which is “beyond” (when I am hanging with one hand on the cliff of my own being). So this is when I believe that he is present in his higher centers all the time and it would all make a better sense for us if we were in our higher center as well. (He is compassionate, but he knows that this is a play and so appears not compassionate…)”

    Hmm…
    This sounds a lot like blind faith.


  381. 379 confused

    Maybe this will help. Definition of a sociopath:

    “A sociopath is mainly identified by there being something very wrong with a person’s conscience. They either 1) have a conscience with “holes” in it, 2)they don’t seem to have one at all or 3) they are able to completely neutralize their sense of conscience into a perspective that they aren’t doing anything wrong.
    One thing is for sure: Sociopaths only care about themselves and only see themselves as being “real” or truly human. Everybody and everything outside of themselves are twisted in their mind into mere objects to be used to achieve personal fulfillment.
    A sociopath often believes that they are doing nothing wrong or doing something greatly good, due to their egocentricity and grandiose sense of self-worth. They will cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please at any expense of anyone in their lives; predators who satisfy their lust for power and control through superficial charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence.”


  382. on August 5, 2007 at 1:39 am Laughing Love

    Hello Confused.

    So, Robert is challenging his members by setting up a “play” in which he only “appears” to entirely lack compassion in order to prove that the concept of compassion is a ridiculous aspect of silly life in order to “wake” you up from that silliness?

    But, his actions that display a lack of compassion actually prove that he is the most compassionate person because his lack is a self sacrifice allows his members to “wake up”.

    No wonder everyone is so confused.

    Less twisted version:

    Robert is not a compassionate person, which, as described by you & others, is proved through his tangible actions, which clearly illustrate a very real lack of compassion, given the world-wide accepted definition of compassion.

    Perhaps we can all agree that compassionate persons and behavior are highly valued and loved. The human emotions experienced when one encounters compassion from another are incredibly awesome. We might even experience a “higher state” when experiencing another being’s willingness to show love, forgiveness and understanding (all components of compassion) toward our flawed beings.

    Attempting to teach, by example, that compassion should not be valued, is an action that encourages anti-social behavior.

    This is so difficult to explain!

    I’ll add that I love magical things and so wish/ed that Robert was a magical person who was twisting logic brilliantly in order to lift us from the muck and mire.

    At this point it is absolutely clear to me that the twists were mere sleights of hand.

    Sheer human emotions are important and real and comprise experience.

    Ignoring, denying and damning their existence simply places one outside of life and therein lies madness.

    Well, I tried to sort out the puzzle pieces! They are so skewed that I get dizzy.

    LL


  383. #341 Unoanimo

    Sometimes you really shine.

    “Whether the outside world can see the “we” or is it endlessly seeing only itself?”

    We can put that one down with “what is the sound of one hand clapping?” as a perfect signpost from “higher” mind.


  384. Dear 07 on this page of ESUD (or what ever):-

    Try listening if, you will. to Andrea Boccelli singing: – “Because we believe” on ‘Amore’ album, or “Bring him Home” from ‘Les Miserables’which I heard for the first time on the televisation of George Best’s funeral (footballer, not soccer, we call it)’

    Collin said “To your own Self you must come”. Yours…Nigel.


  385. (Sorry, Fat Boy. I was responding to Confused; I was confused.)

    Confused:

    Your sincerity isn’t in question.

    I followed you until you got to the part that Dick quoted in 381, where you left your own observations and started talking about what you assume to be true about RB. It might reduce your confusion if you experimented with assuming less, and listening more to yourself. No need to get all philosophical about “what self can I listen to”–just listen, and observe, and see what comes up, without filtering it through what you’ve been told by RB (or by others who are merely passing on to you things that originated with RB). If you believe RB, that’s the end of it–there is no way whatsoever to justify ever leaving the Fellowship, or ever doing anything other than what RB tells you to do. Ever. So just set the RB propaganda aside and ask yourself: If this was a stranger about whom I knew nothing except what I know from my own observation, what would I think of him? Ask yourself what true compassion, true love, would look like, and compare the two.

    Maybe you’re not too sure what it feels like to experience your or another’s compassion or love. So give it some time. Calling someone “dear” does not make one compassionate. Setting your own desires aside for the sake of another is compassionate. Saying you are doing that, while you are in fact satisfying your own desires at the expense of another is not compassionate.


  386. 345 Alice E.

    Subject matter: Whether the outside world can see the ‘we’ or is it endlessly seeing only itself?

    Our senses pick up stimuli and transmit them to the brain which interprets them for us. In this sense we can never see anything outside: we only see what our own brain tells us.

    Respons:

    Thank You Alice E.

    Yes, that is it. The following experiment makes that very clear.

    If you click at the hyperlink and take a look at this picture it is so evident. There is no movement in the picture but it appears to be moving. That’s what the mind does with it. We do not seen the picture that is in front of us we only see the construction of it in our head.

    http://www.peterschwank.com/oi2.htm

    That is on the next picture the place of where it image is formed in our visual cortex at point A.

    http://www.peterschwank.com/in-and-out.htm

    What is interesting is that we are aware of the picture at point A (otherwise it can not be moving) but our mind projects the picture out again to point B. As we see the moving picture in front of us.

    Looking at this from the paradigm of living in an 3 dimensional world:

    Reality: The not moving picture is in front of us and the moving picture is in our mind.

    But we don’t perceive like that.

    Our perception: Without special attention we do not see the picture in our mind and we do not see the not moving picture. We only see the (in our mind constructed) moving picture in front of us.

    We don’t see matter – we see mind.

    Thank you, Peter


  387. Hello ‘confused’ (353/379) ~

    You wrote ~

    “Then what is left – his inner flame and our wish to have our own flame ignited by his. The Mystery. And plus the environment of Isis which is coherent to the higher state.

    (He is compassionate, but he knows that this is a play and so appears not compassionate…)”
    _________________________________________________

    To me, there’s allot of criss crossing going on here ‘confused’, I suppose that’s why you’re confused… Alright, let’s iron some of this sheet out ~

    “What is left?” you ask, yet,

    is this truly how we all live from within, do we really arrive at such a profound decision each day, in which, if we do not answer that one BIG QUESTION, the rest of our lives, in this now, suffers in it’s unreconciled, unanswerable- shadow?

    If the answer is ‘Yes’, then you’re not in a ‘real school’ and have been taught (sub-consciously) to judge yourself ‘in total’ by finding those one or two ‘big-little things’ (usually imaginary ideals that are simply unattainable by any person not on acid 25 hours a day) to thereby measure your sum total as ‘not enough’, not the number really wanted or felt as adequate;

    Robert Burton plays the bongos upon self deprecation/pity, non-existence, all the features, which, inof their natural state (unaffected by higher portions of oneself, nor directed to do so by Robert Burton’s example) automatically feel the need to do something in order to get a response and feel ‘real’;

    every automatic, sculpted by ‘the teacher’ feature plays a role in supporting Robert Burton’s self-calming regime;

    to me, using features, developing anticipatory methods of counter-attack or counter-offers when such features say ‘no’ to his features, in order to get the ‘yes’ that his features need in order to remain ‘orderly’ and ‘crystallized’ as the teacher, whose will cannot be defeated, is not a triad belonging to a conscious being, nor a full blown conscious school; yes, his will does get defeated, yet, he has the ‘last laugh’ by exiling students for it, hence, Robert Burton never looses when he looses you first; nor does he loose when you don’t show up for class, there’s a mechanism in place for that too…

    This is not to say that there is not conscious work going on in there, I have said that before, yet, to me, even (if) there is, its fringe-work, there’s still some greasy corners to scrub at the end of the day and I sense that your ‘profound’ hope that Robert Burton will ignite your flame is simply a device that you use to avoid the responsibility to reconcile the mirror contradictions he possesses that you yourself harvest or at least let grow, rather unchecked or at least to the degree of weeding that you and your connection to your conscience sense it is so possible, yet simply won’t do it (that’s a mystery, truly; we’ve all been there and to some degree are still becoming through its utility)…

    See, this place of your stating ~ “The Mystery”… this is an objective fact to/upon everyone’s lives, regardless of their proximity to consciousness…

    mystery flows through all of humanity and has no favorites;

    Robert Burton bastardizes the clean-body of the goddess Mystery, by saying that it’s solely married to him, to those who, curiously enough, are dead to this third dimensional, personal proximity other that Robert Burton world, his will, his being chosen, him being Knighted by the gods, etc.

    and he covers his footprints by using a whole range of excuses as to how it is that his students have not attained his level of imaginary picture, from the resources available to themselves (although some are sure trying)…

    Please, look deeper,

    everything Robert Burton has done in order to achieve ‘his image’, he himself does not allow his students to do in order to achieve a likewise ‘image’, that would be just too much, wouldn’t it?

    The obviousness of his spiritual-ego would be magnified by the ease that others would have to produce their own versions mirroring his ego, enacting ‘it’ out of themselves…

    This is ‘how’ (and why) he keeps the strong personalities within his organization on a short leech, de-personalizes and de-conscience-alizes many strong essence pursuits by those of his students or simply waves his pinky finger in a loop gesture when news of someone else’s success is mentioned at his breakfast table,

    he dispels White magic, so to maintain Grey magic;

    this is also how it is that he does not invite other gurus to his party, they’d be waving their pinkies too at the breakfast table, at him, and too many pinkies at breakfast is not a helpful digestive aid…

    Also, this is why he will not speak too much about being a Man #4 (or that time when he was or still is), he’s avoiding revealing that he’s simply a guy who dropped out of Alex Horn’s school, lied about his status as a celibate spiritual
    ‘do’ and built a ‘school’ based on exactly where he is, not where you are in your conscious, unfettered connection with him…

    This is how it is that even his closest people, who are seemingly near his heart, laugh behind his back, laugh at emails gotten from others laughing behind his back and who say “Well, you know, that’s Robert’s problem, not mine.” or “It’s just a Play”, it’s the way of ‘Crazy Wisdom’, etc., etc., (Relative Awakening feeds on etceteras)…

    Perhaps one day, all these sentences that explain away contradictions as phenomenon beyond our control will be reclaimed by one’s ‘not-so-lazy spirit’ and be truly seen for what they are, (my opinion) as action-able circumstances, whose revelation as a contradiction is actually our soul-cell-building blocks in being the conscious-force that reconciles such circumstances into a SPACE where being is the prerequisite,

    not judgment or mental categorizing of circumstances into affirmative justifications to leave such messes ‘orderly messes’, messes given from the gods to transform into ‘personal messes’, then into ‘It’s just the play-messes’, as if, once one applies True Personality to every False Personality ‘effect’, that somehow the ’cause’ just disappears back into God’s haphazard, absentminded pockets and one has nothing to do but to be present to the mess, the rest will take care of itself…

    To me, what you are doing with ‘The Play’ in regards to how you apply it to ~ faithfully & hope-fully, tongue-in-cheek, justify Robert Burton’s behavior as ‘your’ Conscious Being, is simply a mimicking of how he justifies it to himself;

    Robert Burton stays asleep on many levels because he has successfully (not in the higher meaning of the word) surrounded himself with ECHOS, not consciousness, not Workers of Conscience… Workers of Connections, yes, though what is a rope-bridge worth when it’s only three inches off the ground?

    The question might be to you ‘confused’ ~ What if you’re conscious?

    Do you truly sense that your consciousness must reflect Robert Burton’s in order to be called ‘your consciousness’, if so, then this alone will reveal where your spirit is at in the moment;

    there are two dreamworlds that effect us oftentimes the most, the fourth dimensional one and the third dimensional one, fortunately, the Fellowship of Friends has gotten itself into the third only, and by the results of this blog will remain there…

    When you say ~

    “He is compassionate, but he knows that this is a play and so appears not compassionate.”

    Are you saying that there is nothing ‘here’ in this now than automatic malfunctioning and subconscious manifestations of a mechanical third and fourth dimensional relationship?

    So, if Robert Burton’s “not compassionate” behavior, deeds, behind the locked door teachings in self-loathing and extreme, painful submission to his sexual predator will are to be justified through the measure of “this is just a play”, then what are you doing in a ‘school’ that only ‘consciously’ refines the mechanically unrefined?

    It’s like sending a terrorist grenade thrower to quarterback school, what’s the point?

    If Robert Burton does not show compassion due to his ‘conscious’ acknowledgment “that it’s just a play”, what does this show you in regards to his level of conscious householder with that which a real school of awakening was originally designed to transform into ‘gold’…

    If you treat lead like lead, will it turn to gold? Do you destroy a beautiful baby boy (who happens to be 18) because he’s going to die anyway?

    To me, your sympathy for Robert Burton and pigeonholing of his behavior into categories of your ‘way too obvious ability’ to defer everything to ‘The Gods’ (a vital talent belonging to the organ Kundabuffer) is simply a grand toke of some hefty Jamaican red bud;

    you’ll get over it though, sooner or later, the toking will simply ‘stop’ and the grand stop exercise that Gurdjieff’s version borrowed itself from (kindergarten in comparison) will be upon you (that’s not a threat, simply a third dimensional probability that has no short cuts or reverse).

    Sometimes I like to lay in bed at night and intentionally imagine that I am on my deathbed, somehow this puts something ‘right’ (my right) upon me, like the smell of freshly cut spring grass or a certain kind of soil that’s only found in root cellars in Russia…

    I lay there and try and sense what it is that I am doing down here and better yet, what is down here doing with me?

    It’s a very mysterious marriage, one that truly (for me) has little room for coersion and date-rape.
    ____________________________________

    Love to you all.


  388. Dear Confused,
    I can very much relate to your question: “What if Robert is indeed conscious?”
    This exact question kept me in school for extra 3-4 years… For a while I had a strong gut feeling that something is wrong, something is not working in this school – too much pretending, insincerity, faking, to much money squeezing, and no one is getting anywhere, no one is waking up so to speak… Kind of like going in circles…
    But then there was this huge paralyzing FEAR of disconnecting, of losing something important, some imagined opportunity… Losing the Sacred School! Yes, what IF? What if???

    Quite a few guys already explained here why they think RObert is NOT what he claims to be. But lets assume he is.
    OK, let’s just assume Robert is conscious (whatever the heck it means to you). Then according to you his behavior then doesn’t matter (since he is conscious and we are not). He can do all kinds of stuff, but we cannot “see the higher”, so it doesn’t matter.
    So he is conscious and you sincerely hope for a divine “ignition” for yourself through him.
    Well, he has a pretty low success rate of “igniting” others, I would say. In fact, shitty success rate! In 35 years of teaching his “inner flame” so far produced only smoke in mirrors… Not many get ignited, are they? If you think Girard is the one – please talk to his ex-wives, may be they will tell you a thing or two about Man#5…
    But Robert found the way to smartly explain his sheer inability to wake anyone up: Oh, it will take many lifetimes… (Brilliant!) It will take more, if you are a woman… The closer you are to him sexually – the higher is a lifetime he issues for you…
    He apparently said that the only possibly woman to wake up in the school is Linda T. So all other women are out of luck! Gee, they may as well leave and try something else, less expensive…

    Just for your info: there are very efficient teachers out there, many of them, if you want to be taught. But the very best teacher is – YOU!
    After all, isn’t is Thyself you’re trying to Know?

    Well, dear Confused, there you have it – stay, pay, obey, listen to crazy interpretations of stuff that has no relationship to your real life whatsoever, and wait for your “next lifetime” or two to get where you hope to get to. It feels safe and cosy in palm tree environment in a small world of Oregon House…
    You can spend your whole life there hoping for something, paying lots and lots of money for some imaginary “next lifetime awakening”, and most likely end in poverty, making efforts…

    Or – take a chance, jump off the cliff, and very likely discover that you can fly so freely on your own… Discover a Big Beautiful Life out there.
    On GF you’ll find lots of friends, new doors may open for you, you may develop a career, become a professional and actually do something useful and beautiful for other people. And believe me – there are lots of beautiful, breath-taking and emotional environments on earth that get you “high” if you wish.

    With much love and support,
    Janna


  389. Dear Confused,

    You have seemed to have verified certain things, especially higher states. I see there is something deep and geniune inside of you that wants to “wake up.”

    I am a member of the FOF and Laura, which I think is a former Member?? (in 285 above) gave me some good advise below. Whether we are former members, members, or confused we can all relate to this and apply it to any part of our life.

    “…don’t try to please anyone, either here or in the FoF. Whatever you do, follow your own instinct and desire. Make an effort to listen to others but even more to yourself. Try to stay as close as possible to what you really feel and think and move from there. Don’t worry about being judged, don’t try to conform to other people’s ways.”


  390. 355 Janna

    Subject matter: Whether the outside world can see the ‘we’ or is it endlessly seeing only itself?

    To me, both “outside world” and “myself” are mental constructs, labels so to speak. My actual immediate experience is that there is just pure seeing, and then mind may break it into “outside world” and “myself”. (or any other labeled “pieces”)

    All I can know is this “seeing”, or “cognizing”, or “registering”.
    And all that is being observed exists only IN this awareness, not separate from it or outside of it.

    So, splitting reality into “me” and “the world” is the next step, done in mind only. Look what happens if this step doesn’t immediately occur – where is Me? Where is Outside world?
    In a way, mind is a tool kind of like scissors – slices one whole picture into pieces and tags them. But in my immediate real experience there is no separation, the picture is one, whole, undivided. There is no “me” and the “outside world”, only oneness.
    ————————————-
    response

    Janna thanks – you are sharp like a knife. It is amazing how you can formulate such a huge concept in so little words.

    Looks like the gospel of Thomas (?): ‘when the soul is no longer in the body but the body is in the soul.’

    I share your worldview. And if I look not at any theory, philosophy, concept or mind construction but just directly at what is experience in this very moment:

    There is indeed just one field of perception. There is the computer, a body seen from the inside (mine), birds singing outside and a other things. But indeed as you put it there is only one field of perception. In which something make’s a separation between me an the environment.

    Maybe Gurdjieff’s quote: when your body becomes as much a part of the environment as a dog you have consciousness.

    Within this worldview there are two schools:

    1) dogmatic idealism – there is no outside world, everything is just a mind concept (Berkeley – Paul Brunton e.d.)

    2) critical idealism – there is an outside word but you cannot see it. What you see is the products of your mind. So, there is an outside world but nobody every saw it or will ever see it. ( Imanuel Kant, P.D. Ouspensky)

    Well, and there is also some people who based on the theory above come to the conclusion that they personally are the only thing that exists iaw the experience of their personal life is God’s only manifestation. Or that everything in frond of them is an projection of their own mind. But this is no so much my cup of tea.

    Janna, where do you stand in relation to this?


  391. Janna,

    BTW what a great advise to ‘confused’.


  392. More specific (end of 391):

    “Or that everything in front of them is an projection of their own mind and that mind is al there exsists. But this is no so much my cup of tea.”


  393. One consistent theme in ideas on what to “do” whether to or from currant and former members is to be “true to yourself”.

    It does not matter how you define it. The answers are not out here only the questions.

    Real work on negativity is not to merely avoid expressing “criticism” but to find and work with the underlying attitudes.

    The fundamental attitude we all share is the belief that anything could be different than it is.

    The Fellowship of Friends may still prove to be the seed of a profound spiritual Renaissance as former members develop their own myriad individualities

    As more and more both in and out side the external structure chose to be the words and seek within themselves the answers.


  394. 340 Laura

    Thanks for the beautiful stories and the movie recommendation, I will buy the movie look at it and come back to it. (and because you mentioned S. Grof earlier in the blog I also order a book of him, I think it was: The Cosmic Game)

    Something interesting that demonstrates so clear that we see not what is in front of us but what our mind makes of it.

    Know that the color of square A. is the same as square B. If you don’t believe it download the picture and cut with Photoshop or a program like that a piece of one square and put it over the other.

    http://www.peterschwank.com/45455888226.htm

    Enjoy,

    Peter


  395. 341 unoanimo, 343 arthur, 368 Elena

    Thank you – for you answers.
    I am going to travel for a week. But I printed your replay and will study it this week and hope to come back to them next week.

    Wishing you the best,
    Peter


  396. on August 5, 2007 at 5:49 am if memory serves

    299/Veronicapoe Thanks for the recommendation for the book on emotions. I enjoyed reading the excerpts at your link and have ordered the book.

    Regarding the recent thread, I’m relieved not one person gave Confused the advice, “Confusion is a high state.” I don’t even know if that phrase is in current vogue, but it years ago was effective in thwarting inconvenient lines of questioning.


  397. #388 Janna

    “He apparently said that the only possible woman to wake up in the school is Linda T.”

    This is kind of a side note to the real discussion going on here, but, it must say that I find this hilarious.

    RB seems to have changed his opinion of old Linda T. during the last 12 years. I will never forget his reaction to her when she interrupted his Sunday 49ers football game to whine about some petty emotional issue she was having. I can’t remember his exact words, but it certainly was not an indication he thought she had any chance to awaken in this lifetime.


  398. #393 A Former Student

    Perhaps the scale is greater. Perhaps we are experiencing the true (not the airy-fairy) shift of humanity into the age of Aquarius.

    Keep the helmets and flack jackets close at hand.


  399. #396

    Confusion is a high state?

    I must be a man #10


  400. 397

    Yes, I think it was Buddha or Krishna that penciled it in the margins of the Upanishads, that said ~

    “Any woman who interrupts a man’s watching of Sunday afternoon football games while surrounded by a group of mamma’s boy’s was definitely going to have to wait at least another 9 lifetimes to wake up, depending on whether it was before or after halftime and whether his or her team was winning: if she liked the same team, then an additional 3 lifetimes would be added due to her lack of valuation for the team.”

    It’s tough out here, yet it’s tougher in a rawhide factory.

    :)


  401. #396 if memory serves

    Regarding confusion, here is something I just read in Byron Katie’s new book:

    “In my experience, confusion is the only suffering. Confusion is when you argue with what is. When you’re perfectly clear, what is is what you want. So when you want something different from what is, you can know that you’re very confused.”

    With love,

    Joseph G


  402. on August 5, 2007 at 9:57 am You-me-us-they

    Special thank to Unoanimo for this:

    “If Robert Burton does not show compassion due to his ‘conscious’ acknowledgment “that it’s just a play”, what does this show you in regards to his level of conscious householder with that which a real school of awakening was originally designed to transform into ‘gold’…”

    No question mark symbol but a real good question!

    Gratitude.


  403. 402

    the (…) trails it into the next sentence which has the (?) mark you’re looking for,

    and yet,

    I do have senior moments, no doubt they have me too.

    ___________________

    l.t.y.a.g.


  404. 396 / if memory serves

    I hope you enjoy the book. Affect theory offers the best framework I have encountered for understanding emotion. I particularly appreciate the value of the concept that the face is the display board for the affect system.

    You wrote that
    Regarding the recent thread, I’m relieved not one person gave Confused the advice, “Confusion is a high state.” I don’t even know if that phrase is in current vogue, but it years ago was effective in thwarting inconvenient lines of questioning.

    You perfectly describe the operation of a “thought terminating cliché”:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A9


  405. 351, 381 and 389 are newly moderated.


  406. on August 5, 2007 at 3:46 pm More history needed?

    About aids.

    Thanks Xena… wise words and very practical.

    Robert does not seem to be recorder as having aids in the health department in Yuba County. He could be recorder somewhere else in California. He seems to prefer denial.
    Two ex students told other people that they got aids from Robert Burton (?). Hard to prove is n’t it.

    You are the one, who can take precautions and run away from trouble.

    There is plenty of help.

    Yes, your silence will give the answers. Take that time to listen.


  407. on August 5, 2007 at 4:16 pm Laughing Love

    Poem: “Starfish” by Eleanor Lerman, from Our Post-Soviet History Unfolds. © Sarabande Books, 2005.

    Starfish

    This is what life does. It lets you walk up to
    the store to buy breakfast and the paper, on a
    stiff knee. It lets you choose the way you have
    your eggs, your coffee. Then it sits a fisherman
    down beside you at the counter who says, Last night,
    the channel was full of starfish. And you wonder,
    is this a message, finally, or just another day?

    Life lets you take the dog for a walk down to the
    pond, where whole generations of biological
    processes are boiling beneath the mud. Reeds
    speak to you of the natural world: they whisper,
    they sing. And herons pass by. Are you old
    enough to appreciate the moment? Too old?
    There is movement beneath the water, but it
    may be nothing. There may be nothing going on.

    And then life suggests that you remember the
    years you ran around, the years you developed
    a shocking lifestyle, advocated careless abandon,
    owned a chilly heart. Upon reflection, you are
    genuinely surprised to find how quiet you have
    become. And then life lets you go home to think
    about all this. Which you do, for quite a long time.
    Later, you wake up beside your old love, the one
    who never had any conditions, the one who waited
    you out. This is life’s way of letting you know that
    you are lucky. (It won’t give you smart or brave,
    so you’ll have to settle for lucky.) Because you
    were born at a good time. Because you were able
    to listen when people spoke to you. Because you
    stopped when you should have and started again.
    So life lets you have a sandwich, and pie for your
    late night dessert. (Pie for the dog, as well.) And
    then life sends you back to bed, to dreamland,
    while outside, the starfish drift through the channel,
    with smiles on their starry faces as they head
    out to deep water, to the far and boundless sea.


  408. Cyclops #375 : That was a good one. And, thanks for the lap top information.

    Did you know Robot’er Burton watched television?


  409. 411, Arthur.
    Hi Arthur, As far as i was aware it was only baseball or soccer, games where large numbers of muscle bound men play against each other, It was in my day though it may have changed in the intervening years. lty Cy.


  410. #398 Peter

    That is one of the coolest of those perceptual thingys I have seen. All those contrasts combine to really screw with eyeballs. I wonder how much the green in the pillar has to do with it?

    What really screwed me up was that grey was spelled two different ways in the description. I can never remember how to spell gray and now I am never going to be able to.


  411. What is even wierder is that a few posts before Unanimo talked about turning “white magic” into “grey magic”. Perhaps you noticed that, at least subliminally.


  412. Dear Confused, Fat Boy, and us bloggers,

    I keep coming back to this: RB needs others to suffer, and he needs to vicariously experience their suffering. This is a constant. We simply cannot comprehend why someone would do this and so invent all sorts of excuses. Bruce posted the definition of sociopath which I’ll paste in – it is worth re-reading many times. Many times. RB is not ‘higher’. It takes a bit of distance to start to realize it tho. I’m one who loves magic too and mystery and all that…and have discovered that not confining the divine to a group or person actually increases the possibilities of experiencing the miraculous. Life is very hopeful with mercy and grace.)

    “Maybe this will help. Definition of a sociopath:

    “A sociopath is mainly identified by there being something very wrong with a person’s conscience. They either 1) have a conscience with “holes” in it, 2)they don’t seem to have one at all or 3) they are able to completely neutralize their sense of conscience into a perspective that they aren’t doing anything wrong.
    One thing is for sure: Sociopaths only care about themselves and only see themselves as being “real” or truly human. Everybody and everything outside of themselves are twisted in their mind into mere objects to be used to achieve personal fulfillment.
    A sociopath often believes that they are doing nothing wrong or doing something greatly good, due to their egocentricity and grandiose sense of self-worth. They will cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please at any expense of anyone in their lives; predators who satisfy their lust for power and control through superficial charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence.”

    ———————-
    SBeMore
    “I had a strong desire to be ordinary. I wanted to let go of trying to be better than others, and I wanted to see other people as living their lives in the best way they know how. I wanted to truly see them and connect with them without assuming I knew what they were about and what mattered to them. ”

    Hi SBeMore, I was riveted to your whole post. I was the same way as you say above and have found out that there is no such thing as ordinary. But there is a feeling of being natural and authentic.

    ———————

    Yesri baba
    ” Perhaps we are experiencing the true (not the airy-fairy) shift of humanity into the age of Aquarius.”

    Yes! a COMMUNITY that is self organized, not ruled top down – that is how I understand the model of Aquarius. This blog feels like a wave of that kind of community.

    ————————
    LL – wonderful poem!


  413. Hi Peter “f you click at the hyperlink and take a look at this picture it is so evident. There is no movement in the picture but it appears to be moving. That’s what the mind does with it. We do not seen the picture that is in front of us we only see the construction of it in our head.

    http://www.peterschwank.com/oi2.htm

    That is on the next picture the place of where it image is formed in our visual cortex at point A.”

    I’m still pondering this – pretty interesting stuff for me. I think that the image appears to move, at least in part, because of tiny eye movements and the eyeball having peripheral vision- attempting to see the whole image in one moment. If you stare at the image and concentrate on stilling all eye movement (pick a point ant just stare at it) the image appears to stop moving. And one becomes hypnotized. I go into a trance state. It is a trance state with awareness and options. If I don’t do this and watch the image move I get a bad headache fast. I know that does not happen universally – and have been interested in how different people ‘see’. Thanks!

    (I hope the link works as a paste)


  414. Great poem, Laughing Love! Thanks!


  415. This is from Joseph Campbell:

    Nevertheless, every failure to cope with a life situation must be laid, in the end, to a restriction of consciousness. Wars and temper tantrums are the makeshifts of ignorance: regrets are illuminations come too late. The whole sense of the ubiquitous myth of the hero’s passage is that it shall serve as a general pattern for men and women, wherever they may stand along the scale. Therefore it is formulated in it’s broadest terms. The individual has only to discover his own position with reference to this general human formula, and let it then assist him past his restricting walls. Who and where are his ogres? Those are the reflections of the unsolved enigmas of his own humanity. What are his ideals? Those are the symptoms of his grasp of life.
    In the office of the modern psychoanalyst, the stages of the hero-adventurer come to light again in the dreams and hallucinations of the patient. Depth beyond depth of self-ignorance is fathomed, with the analyst in the role of helper, the initiatory priest. And always, after the first thrills of getting under way, the adventure develops into a journey of darkness, horror, disgust and phantasmagoric fears.


  416. #404 Joseph

    Maybe Byron Katie and Peter can get together and figure out “what is” so we can figure out what not to be confused about.

    Isn’t not accepting “what is” in the fof a large part of what this blog is about?

    “what is” is the beginning of the Jeopardy answer “the world” in the catagory of “things going to hell in a handbasket”



  417. Here’s the situation:

    There is a “C influence,” a disembodied source of higher intelligence that exists in a higher dimension that is normally inaccessible to the understanding of a human’s organic devices of perception, and this C influence does extend a certain limited sway over what happens in the world of man and nature on our planet. Particularly C influence concerns itself with those that are actively “remembering themselves,” that is, those attempting and succeeding in producing self-consciousness in themselves and thereby building, refining and transforming an entirely optional “astral body.” If this particular category of perception be nothing more than mere myth then it is the oldest and most revered myth in human history. No doubt modern men, now operating much more efficiently under the principles of “scientific psychology,” know far more than all the great minds and souls of history and have no need of such superstitions, but just as a disturbing and distracting rumor that just might disrupt the pure flow of modern logic streaming through a citizen of rational discrimination note that some of us know better than to fall for the currently popular superstition that everything in life can be explained by scientific rationality. If a man does not at least suspect that there is a guiding force monitoring his psychological and spiritual development it is only because he has no genuine psychological and spiritual development. That’s the cold fact. If you are unaware of and therefore discount the Fourth Way idea of C influence (Conscious Influences) it is because your perceptions are stuck exclusively within the organically devised lower functions of a human animal and you are cut-off from any of the intelligence that is an inherent quality of the conscious soul. Those in such a position are therefore unable to intuit the real meaning behind existence on this planet. The real meaning of this life is to resist identifying with the reactions of the lower centers to the stimulation of events and instead transform that automatically generated energy into developing a conscious will, in part by resisting the involuntary perceptions and expressions of the emotional story and instinctive-moving story of the four lower centers.

    C influence is the real “teacher” in the lives of those working to develop a higher, conscious body through the struggle to remove the sense of ‘I’ from the more mechanical functions and instead inhabit the more intelligent functions of the human organism, thus conserving the necessary energies that allow a direct connection to moments of higher consciousness. A man sincerely struggling to awaken into the higher worlds that exist beyond this world of human animals has as the birthright of his emerging soul the attention and assistance of those now disembodied souls and spirits that succeeded at the task each self-remembering man has chosen as his primary endeavor in life. Those of us no longer involved in the large organized institutions established to evolve conscious souls still retain and increase our understanding and ability to do esoteric work because ‘conscious influences’ have in effect erased the artificial boundary between “school” and “life,” they no longer insist on a formal representative and intermediary in the form of a specific teacher. Conscious influences support any and every man struggling to awaken wherever and whenever men remember to struggle against sleep. There is no longer a penalty for walking away from these failed ‘doomsday’ experiments of concentrated hysteria. C influence will follow you wherever you go as long as you follow the requirements of your developing soul.


  418. on 05 Aug 2007 at 6:01 pm416 KA

    “I’m still pondering this – pretty interesting stuff for me. I think that the image appears to move, at least in part, because of tiny eye movements and the eyeball having peripheral vision- attempting to see the whole image in one moment. If you stare at the image and concentrate on stilling all eye movement (pick a point ant just stare at it) the image appears to stop moving”

    Many artist and artistic traditions have recognized the quality of “seeing.” Gurdjieff in discussing color used Persian carpets and Leonardo Da Vinci as examples in regrad to the objective use of color.

    Goethe also wrote a book called “Color Theory” in this regards. He focused on the experience of the observer rather than the Newtonian approach to color. One thing that happens in “seeing” is that when a beam of color strikes a receptor in the eye it discharges producing an electrical impulse. It then needs to recharge, this is a fast process but there is a perceptable gap in the experience of that color. In some ways the action of television screens

    There is also a subtle phenomena in the awareness of color. This regards the order that we “see” colors. This may be associated with the speed of different wavelenghts of color and the speeds of the different receptors. What this means is that our awarness of color moves in a certain order. An octave. This is recognized and taught in the field of Art as a tool for creating movement in a work.

    Here is a link to one of my own experiements with color.

    http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/1038244230000601390EAELhA

    As with many areas I found after extensive work that others already knew what I was trying to figure out.
    This is designed to function by trying to focus attention on the center spot or area and to continue to do so for at leasr one minute. Unfortunatly it does not work without this degree of attention.

    Then just allow the perceptions to enter. Do not try and force the image to stay in focus allow the experience of “movement” to occur. Simply record what you observe.

    Some Biological “Facts” about vision

    The Retina
    Four kinds of light-sensitive receptors are found in the retina:
    rods
    three kinds of cones, each “tuned” to absorb light from a portion of the spectrum of visible light
    cones that absorb long-wavelength light (red)
    cones that absorb middle-wavelength light (green)
    cones that absorb short-wavelength light (blue)
    Each type of receptor has its own special pigment for absorbing light. Each consists of:

    a transmembrane protein called opsin coupled to
    the prosthetic group retinal. Retinal is a derivative of vitamin A (which explains why night blindness is one sign of vitamin A deficiency) and is used by all four types of receptors.

    The amino acid sequence of each of the four types of opsin are similar, but the differences account for their differences in absorption spectrum. The retina also contains a complex array of interneurons:

    bipolar cells and ganglion cells that together form a path from the rods and cones to the brain
    a complex array of other interneurons that form synapses with the bipolar and ganglion cells and modify their activity.

    Ganglion cells are always active. Even in the dark they generate trains of action potentials and conduct them back to the brain along the optic nerve. Vision is based on the modulation of these nerve impulses. There is not the direct relationship between visual stimulus and an action potential that is found in the senses of hearing, taste, and smell. In fact, action potentials are not even generated in the rods and cones

    Cone Vision
    Although cones operate only in relatively bright light, they provide us with our sharpest images and enable us to see colors. Most of the 3 million cones in each retina are confined to a small region just opposite the lens called the fovea. So our sharpest and colorful images are limited to a small area of view. Because we can quickly direct our eyes to anything in view that interests us, we tend not to be aware of just how poor our peripheral vision is.

    The three types of cones provide us the basis of color vision. Cones are “tuned” to different portions of the visible spectrum.

    red absorbing cones; those that absorb best at the relatively long wavelengths peaking at 565 nm
    green absorbing cones with a peak absorption at 535 nm
    blue absorbing cones with a peak absorption at 440 nm.
    Retinal is the prosthetic group for each pigment. Differences in the amino acid sequence of their opsins accounts for the differences in absorption.
    The response of cones is not all-or-none. Light of a given wavelength (color), say 500 nm (green), stimulates all three types of cones, but the green-absorbing cones will be stimulated most strongly. Like rods, the absorption of light does not trigger action potentials but modulates the membrane potential of the cones.

    for more information of the eye
    check out
    webvision.med.utah.edu/


  419. 419 Graduates

    OK Except for the form, the lack of owning your opinion by using “there is” instead of “I think”, “In my experience” “I believe”

    Try to understand this is just a discussion of form, grammer, it is not about you or your understanding. It is about the form, when you use “There is” you are stating this as an objective fact which means any other position is incorrect . As soon as you state it as your personal understanding it allows the possibility of a multitude of equally correct or incorrect possibilities without negating any one.
    Fine So I agree with you 100% . So?


  420. 356 and 419 are newly moderated.

    Graduates (421): Thank you for so beautifully highlighting that piece of text, it truly does stand out.


  421. Hi Yesri Baba,

    Question of semantics in your #418 I think.

    My read on Byron Katie’s words, first of all, was in the context of the FOF platitude that confusion is a relatively high state. (BTW, maybe we should read “cognitive dissonance is relatively high state” to understand the cult-underside of this particular “work i”.)

    I agree with you that this blog is mostly about NOT condoning or allowing “what is” as it applies to the FOF. But accepting “what is” does not imply permission; I think it actually means acknowledging the truth and putting oneself in a better position to deal with reality.

    Confused seems to be having a hard time getting to this point, just as most of us did. In fact, to date no one advocating for REB and the FOF on this blog has yet managed to accept “what is” in relation to REB’s personal accountability for the damage he has done to so many of his students. Nor have they accepted “what is” in relation to their own acountability as permitters and enablers of REB’s misconduct, and in some cases, without exaggeration, his crimes.

    Byron Katie also seems to be talking about accepting “what is” as it applies to one’s life, relationships and possibilities for growth.

    For example, some of us want REB or others in the FOF to change their behavior. Others want someone we know (or everyone we know) to leave the FOF immediately. Some current members want people on the blog to respect them more, stop bitching about the past and get over it already, “take personal responsibility” for the things they allowed to happen to them in the FOF – the abortions, the blow jobs, the poverty, the social stigmas they “consented” to and therefore are in no position to complain about now.

    All these seem to be examples of not accepting what is.

    I can’t speak for Byron Katie though. Her ideas are a lot more profound than anything I have said here. Better if you read one of her books yourself.

    All the best,

    Joseph G


  422. on August 5, 2007 at 9:18 pm You-me-us-they

    On “illusion”:


  423. To Confused:

    You wrote, “What if Robert is indeed conscious? If he really is conscious then all our experiences connected to the functions (including emotional (our hurt feelings), intellectual (absurd teaching) and instinctive function (sex, money etc.)) are irrelevant.”

    You’re setting up a false dichotomy here. Why are all of the above irrelevant if Robert is conscious? I can see how, if you find that the sequence and the thirty work ‘I’s are really effective, then the intellectual quality of the keys, the comments on schools ,and the image interpretations might be irrelevant. But why would the extreme level of sexual abuse be irrelevant?

    Robert could be conscious, yet you might not be able to make use of the new teaching. Or he could be conscious but going through a difficult phase in his evolution, and not be able to really help his students at the moment. Or he could be conscious and yet much of his teaching could be unhelpful.

    Or he could be conscience, but not have conscience. Or he could only be relatively conscious. Or he could be conscious but incorrectly crystallized.

    And the same about your ‘I’s. Some of them might come from your conscience. Others might just be angry, or might come from features. Some might result from a breaking down of buffers.

    You might leave the school and find that your work improves and you experience more consciousness and conscience. Or less consciousness, but still some. Or you might find other ways of awakening that work better, or you might find that your work is much the same as it was within the Fellowship. Or you might stay in the school and come to terms with the new teaching and Robert’s behaviour. Or stay in just for the social life. Or stay in and remain uncomfortable. Or you might leave and rejoin, or stay in and leave later.

    But the thing is to not be trapped in this either/or predicament, which Robert’s teaching and the general attitudes in the Fellowship do seem to encourage. And to discover a way of determining for yourself the relative value of the Fellowship and Robert.


  424. 419 PatrickT

    Thank you Patrick.


  425. Although I was not a member of the Fellowship of Friends I am a
    survivor of a very similar group, a ‘spin-off’ of the Fellowship,
    called the Spiral of Friends. This group was created by James Randazzo a former student of Robert Burton. As with the FOF the
    SOF was a cult that was disguised as a genuine Fourth Way School and I am writing today to encourage others that have had the strength to ‘graduate’ from these criminal groups and those that may be listening to their conscience and trying to leave.

    In the case of the SOF Randazzo was brought to justice by the law, locked up in a federal prison for his crimes as a ‘teacher’ and the group has long been dissolved.
    In the case of the FOF this has not occurred as yet but it will happen eventually, the signs of degeneration are very obvious now.

    This blog has been an unexpected source of closure and healing energy for me even after 20 years since my experience of the SOF and I am now writing to send positive thoughts and energy to all those that can use it and to say thank you.


  426. 421 Graduates ~

    Now that you’ve taken the Varsity Jacket off, it’s time to go to the hardware store and get some sandpaper and start working on that full-body-tattoo.

    ;.]


  427. 421 Graduates

    Pretty good, except for the authoritative tone. It sort of takes some wind out of the sail.


  428. Hi Graduates “If a man does not at least suspect that there is a guiding force monitoring his psychological and spiritual development it is only because he has no genuine psychological and spiritual development. ”

    This is wonderful – very powerful post.


  429. You-me-us-they ~

    Did you notice that as the mask comes around to show the optical illustion that the room gets darker… there’s some camera juju going on in there… it’s trippy though, I must admit;

    It reminds me of the time that I saw two glowing green eyes starring at me from the forest, I ran into my father’s house to get his shotgun and went out into the wind whipped woods with my dog yelling “I see you”, “I know you’re there”, thinking all along that it was some sort of basilisk or alien stalking around… the deeper I went into the woods, my heart beating fiercely, pointing the gun straight forwards, white knuckles, etc. Dog freaking out; as I got closer to the edge of the woods which ended on another dirt road I saw that it was a giant electric bug zapper handing in a tree, swinging back and forth, it’s image being cut in half by another tree in front of its initial image…

    Whew! C-Influence is ruthless…

    :.}


  430. Graduates #421: That was a good one. I liked that very much.

    About the “eyes”: Somewhere in my 4th Way material, I think Rodney Collin’s book, “The Theory of Celestial Influence” it said that what we see comes in upside down and at the point where it criss/crosses is ……..Forgot the rest.


  431. Hello ~ Confused 381

    You wrote ~

    “Robert never makes sense to this part of me which is very clear about “my” things (instinctive?)”
    ______________________________

    He does not make this part clear (my opinion) because within that environment of YOU, the initial extreme and oftentimes nerve wrecking separation from what one takes for granted or lives day to day, and that which is every idling on the edges of your being, stands the state of being totally yourself, unfettered by affirmations, inner considering, putting on circus masks to make people pout or smile (good student/bad student, moon/paradise, us/they, your will/Robert’s will, etc)…

    this unfettered YOU is exactly what he cannot tolerate, it is exactly what he cannot feed upon by overcoming it with his imaginings impressed upon your ‘not so sure side’, ‘the doubtful side’, ‘the benefit of the doubt giver’, etc.

    It is this part of yourself which can graduate, actually very quickly, yet, he keep this part under his thumb, after all it’s the thumb he’s sucking on.

    Too, this is the part of himself that he’s yet to developed, his image of himself is trapped in the role of a teacher; being a teacher (my opinion), a real teacher means to die to the importance of the role first, Gurdjieff, Collin, Ouspensky, Shams, Baba… they all did this prior to having students; Robert Burton is afraid of his students, BTW, there is no fear in conscious-love, not one drop, nor protectiveness/competition… Robert Burton is acting and while on stage you can’t expect Russel Crow to just stop what he’s doing and answer your cell phone for you… he’s got a ‘good job’ and so far sees no reason to do anything for his students that’s not on the script, whereas he would not get ending credits for having done so… It’s all very Hollywood.
    ________________________

    Hello ~ Brain Police 351

    You wrote ~
    Ever notice that an Older Student always remains an Older Student in our minds, no matter what? If a person was in for three years when you joined, they were an Older Student. If they left a year later and you stayed another twenty years, you still think of them as an Older Student.

    Why?
    _________________

    Interesting… it’s not the same for everyone though. Say that person who’s three years ahead of you is 21 years old and you’re 21 entering your first year; they drop out, you go on, they return and you’re the same age although ‘they’ have that ‘three year thingy’, I believe the perception would be different in this case… Perhaps it’s ‘physical age’ that’s getting in the way, creating an ‘optical illusion’…

    Then there’s the romantic in all of us who ‘thinks’ that that person saw something in the past that we ourselves were not fortunate enough to perceive, yet, have we truly verified that life’s circumstances are that varied that todays oddities don’t match yesterdays?

    Also, many ‘old students’ wear a sort of ‘purple heart’ concerning their time-status in Robert Burton’s school, yet, this is an illusion (my take on it), even if it’s a measly three years ago more than yourself, certain egos will use time as a symbol of ‘seems so-ness’, this is silly and to be taken with a quarter gram of salt…

    Trust your wisdom and try not to let anyone go spray painting it in the middle of the night with ‘I gotta be more’ graffiti… there’s enough of that going on (on) the Galleria ceilings.
    ____________________________

    Hello ‘More history needed?’ 410

    You wrote ~

    “Two ex students told other people that they got aids from Robert Burton (?). Hard to prove isn’t it.”
    ________________________________

    Well, no, actually it is not… If these two people can set down a time line, do blood tests from their other lovers, etc. (There are criminal forensics that specialize in this sort of litigation issues)… Robert Burton can be hauled into a mandatory blood test, DNA test, etc., by the California District Attorney’s Office on charges of Reckless Endangerment, etc. Don’t fool yourself; HIV is a weapon, a deadly weapon, people have gone to prison for using it as such…

    Something Robert Burton has never taught his students and in my opinion it’s at the level of kindergarten esoteric law, that is, intent is more powerful than it’s result; for a ‘result’ can be isolated to one person’s situation, it can be seen as ‘small’, yet, if the creator of that ‘intent’ who created the situation maintains such, than thousands can be infected with this ‘small’ thing, it’s not small anymore… Hitler proved this law worthy of inspection and contemplation.
    ____________________________________

    P.S. 421/Graduates

    I feel that what you wrote is a meditation for you, something one might find in your very personal journal, yet, once removed from ‘there’ by ‘some other intent’ than taking it within yourself as a sort of firm-spiritual-affirmation, a sort of driving conviction prose, placing it in BOLD TYPE, issuing it as a sort of Fire & Brimstone soapbox dialog is simply, for me, only worth as much as it seems it’s not worth to you… since, it seems, that instead of really digesting it and laying it out as your to you, not god to us, you’ve neglected it’s original intent, to take you someplace we cannot go, neither for you or with you… Such writings are for your ‘fire’, it can be for ours, yet, to me, there’s a big difference between a campfire and 911.
    ____________________________

    l.t.ya.


  432. 421 Graduates: Weird post. Initially I wasn’t clear as to whether or not you were writing a parody of some of the more wacky Fellowship views, but I guess you’re serious (?). You state your theories as if they are facts – an odd writing style.

    Anyway, maybe there is a “conscious force” of some kind aiding us in our “evolution”, and maybe there isn’t. Either way, these are just mental concepts of no great importance. Truly, I’m not disagreeing with you. But maybe a more useful pointer would be that you, I and everyone else are C influence – that’s our true reality.

    RN


  433. 433 unoanimo

    “P.S. 421/Graduates…”

    Useful point.


  434. Graduates

    Besides the above criticisms, I found it to be by far one of your more useful posts.

    But you frequently erect a needless wall between what’s useful in your posts and the listeners by your unnecessary dogmatism, or feeling of dogmatism. We all filter stuff through our center of gravity (as we used to say) but that it can obfuscate what’s of great use to others.

    But just the same…good one.


  435. #425 Joseph

    Sometimes it does seem that if we do not fight with “what is” it opens a space for other “what is’s” to come in.


  436. I found this tonight; truly curious, for me, how similar this ‘students’ story is to those in the Fellowship of Friends; it goes like this ~

    “True Love? by ‘A High School Student’, Wilmington, DE Middle school and high school relationships boggle me. A couple goes out for two weeks and decide that they are in “love.” Most of us don’t even know what the word means. We’ve seen the movies and read the books, but do we really understand the awe and humility of true love? Teenagers try to simulate the feelings we see between Jack and Rose in “Titanic” and between Romeo and Juliet. However, we do not, we cannot realize what true love is. First of all, our relationships start out in the most obscure ways. A girl likes a guy (or vice versa), rumors fly and everyone finds out about it. Then, along comes a mutual friend who intercedes and forces one to ask the other out. The couple goes out for a while and then they begin to use the word “love.” They use it so much that it becomes over-used and meaningless. A few months later, they have broken up and are dating others. Maybe I am being too particular about this, but I really do believe that we, as high school students, need to try to understand love. To me, true love is meritorious. Anyone who can experience that kind of perfection deserves a medal. Most people are only lucky enough to have true love once in their lives, but (and I apologize to all teenagers out there) it doesn’t usually happen at age sixteen. Love does not come and go like a new trend; love is too big an honor to be taken for granted. I’ll admit that love seems to have been on the decline during the last half-century. It used to really be “’til death do us part,” but the new phrase seems to be “’til divorce do us part.” Things go wrong in marriages and I understand that, but I feel that love has become less of a joining of hearts and more of a coalition of bank accounts. Love today is nothing like the romance novels. Most couples have an emptiness that needs to be filled. With what, you ask? Honestly, I have no idea. I have no idea because I have not yet experienced true love. I’m sure that it will be quite some time before I do and that does not bother me. I don’t expect to meet my sou-mate for years and years – that is, if I’m lucky enough to find him. Yet many of my friends continue to search for him/her and, no matter how hard I try, I cannot convince my friends that looking for love in high school is useless. Now that I think of it, I feel looking for love any time is useless. To all teenagers searching for their one and only: true love will find us when the time is right and the time for us is not now. Have patience; it will happen. ?”
    ______________________________

    l.t.y.a.


  437. Dear Graduates:

    Here’s the situation:

    You are preaching exactly like your nemesis, Robert Burton. I hope you haven’t started seeing angels hovering over your keyboard, yet…

    Greg, I am going to be as blunt as you. With your style of thinking you run the risk of relating to people not as human beings, but as objects…tools and pawns of ‘higher forces’. You come across as a pedagogue in your diatribe about ‘the way things are’, like a graduate fresh out of seminary school. It is an element of narcissism.

    You are in danger of losing your humanity and eventually your compassion for others if you fail to understand that what you call ‘c-influence’ actually originates within each of us as do the forces of ‘sleep’.

    We all struggle with the inner conflict of ‘owning’ our inherent spiritual divinity in stark contrast with our inherent destructive nature. It is far more palatable for humans to externalize that control and those influences, absolving us of any responsibility. (The devil made me do it! “C-influence wants you to have sex with me.”) And we will even willingly donate (pay) money to promote that belief system to keep us feeling good about ourselves. That is sleep!

    Look how far Robert Burton has descended by externalizing c-influence (forces of good), while his followers grapple with internalizing the demonic king of clubs (forces of evil). That’s why to his followers he can do no wrong. Creating schisms such as this is a recipe for mental illness like depression.

    From our early beginnings, humans have used ‘disembodied spirits’ to explain the unseen forces of life and human nature that we don’t understand, especially when those influences are hidden within us, on vast or microscopic scale, or in gaseous form.

    But just since you were a schoolboy, scientific thought has taken a quantum leap. For many years, scientific inquiry was based on reductionism, i.e., seeking to understand something by deconstructing it into its smallest components and studying those parts.

    Now the cutting edge in scientific inquiry is shifting to systemic-holistic thought, i.e., how the separate parts are interrelated not only among themselves but within a context or an environment.

    In other words, the focus of modern thought is not to merely understand the characteristics of the smallest material particle of physical reality, but the nature of itsinvisible relationship between other particles. That inquiry even takes into account the observer as an influence in the outcome of the observation!

    To me, that’s the ‘disembodied spirits’ of which you speak: those invisible relationships that you have with everything you experience in life AND the fact that you are observing them. Remember, the snake bites his tail because he does not know himself. Without the human mind, spirits would not exist either…they are not separate from us!

    Science is beginning to understand that your observation of yourself within your reality changes the very nature of your reality, whether you ascribe those changes as originating from disembodied spirits outside you or from the consciousness that you contain within yourself. So just by being more aware, you set yourself up for more awareness. Not bad for “rational science”, eh? It is how you participate in the Conscious Aspect of the Ray of Creation: making efforts to increase your conscious relationship to yourself and all that you experience in your lifetime, just as other seekers have done before you.

    BTW, when you read something that was written long, long ago and recognize its truth, then the spirit of that truth has reached you from a higher dimension of time. Higher dimensions are not that complicated really.

    But hey, you are entitled to believe anything you like, just as I am entitled to challenge those beliefs if you make them public. Thanks for posting. I admire your strength of conviction. And the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    Let us both continue to make our relationship to our world, to ourselves, and to each other a conscious one, instead of a prepackaged, mechanically conditioned one.


  438. Dear Graduates, at first I too thought your post was a joke or parody of some kind… May be it is? Well, then you’ve fooled me for a minute! :)

    With all my respect to your beliefs in c-influence, I just want to say that this sounds just like something RB would say: “C influence concerns itself with those that are actively “remembering themselves,” (Oh yes, those “chosen ones”…)

    Even if there is a c-influence, (which very well may be), how in the world anyone would know with such certainty what it concerns itself with? Did they send you a letter or called you or something? Or they talk to you directly, like they do to RB on a regular basis? Or may be you read their “signs”? Like, 44-s, or 6,12, 7, pyramids etc?
    “C influence will follow you wherever you go as long as you follow the requirements of your developing soul.” – again, did you talked to them about it and they told you whom they would follow and where?
    Sorry but your posting at times sounds like something a very radical religious person would say: “Here is my God that I truly believe in, and this is the only true God. It’s a fact. He helps only those who do this practice. It’s a fact. The rest will go to hell. This is the true and only way. If you don’t see this – you are doomed. You don’t need the “church” because my God will save you anywhere as long as you’re faithful”.”

    And where is thinking? Or observation, or verification?
    I hear faith, vain division into “evolving us” and “animal them” and lots of assumptions, theory and mental concepts.
    But thanks for revealing “The real meaning of this life”, and putting it in bold – it truly does stand out.

    I don’t deny higher intelligence, by the way.
    I just find it funny to talk about it’s plans and intentions with such certainty as if one can know… I find it funny to humanize “Gods” too. First people invent the god, and then start deciding for him what he is going to do, whom he is going to help and whom to punish… And then they believe it! So funny.
    Which kind of limited and predictable Higher Forces these must be, if you Graduates know their plans, their intentions and actions?

    It reminds me too much of RB and his endless BS-tales about what c-influence wants from us… Heard enough of this crap… sorry buddy…


  439. on August 6, 2007 at 6:02 am You-me-us-they

    No mercy!
    On illusion, again:

    Gratitude.


  440. Graduates, Janna, Whalerider

    I sort of sit in between all of your posts, through my own filtering mechanism, and yet I also cannot accept the idea of C influence as a separate intelligent (like we may be) idea of entities “guiding” us. But I do believe in a pervasive connection with everything with some kind of “higher force” permeating everything, yet I wouldn’t deign to describe or ascribe characteristics from our/this level for something that is obviously unknowable except through our infinitely limited palette of understanding. For me the idea of a “higher force” is simply a convenient but not too accurate way to speak of our present apprehension of one aspect of the unseen interconnectedness of everything (see, the words just get in the way).
    I also objected to the dogmatic rendering of Greg’s rumination, yet I found some truth interwoven in the whole cloth. Isn’t it always like that?
    The idea of a person going through life without, at least, occasional moments of realizing that one’s “evolution” is a constant endeavor, to a greater or lesser degree, that varies in the moment.


  441. on August 6, 2007 at 6:37 am BRAINWASHED?

    To change a person’s basic personality and character, to get them to behave in contradictory ways to lifelong patterns of behavior, to get them to alter their basic beliefs and values, would count as mind control.

    Some recruits into non-mainstream religions seem to be brainwashed and controlled to the point that they will do great evil to themselves or others at the behest of their leader, including murder and suicide. Some of these recruits are in a state of extreme vulnerability when they are recruited and their recruiter takes advantage of that vulnerability. Such recruits may be confused or rootless due to ordinary transition difficulties (such as new college students), difficult life circumstances (such as failing in college or at a new job), or even tragic personal events (such as death of close friends or loved ones) or world events (such as war or terrorism). Some may be mentally ill or emotionally disturbed, greatly depressed, traumatized by self-abuse with drugs or abuse at the hands of others, etc. But it would not be to the advantage of the cult to actively recruit the emotionally disturbed. As one cult recruiter told me

    Cults have complicated ideologies and practices that mentally or emotionally upset people have difficulty grasping. These structures are what allow the cult to control the person. Cults do not want people who are difficult to control.

    Thus, while some recruits might be very vulnerable to those who would like to control their thoughts and actions, recruiters look for people they can make vulnerable. The recruiter quoted above also said

    Cults seek out strong, intelligent, idealistic people. They also seek out the rich, no matter what their mental status is.

    The goal is make the recruits vulnerable, to get them to give up whatever control over their thoughts and actions they might have. The goal is to make the cult members feel like passengers on a rudderless ship on a stormy sea. The recruiter or cult leader has a rudder and only he can guide the ship to safety.

    The techniques available to manipulate the vulnerable are legion. One technique is to give them the love they feel they do not get elsewhere. Convince them that through you and your community they can find what they’re looking for, even if they haven’t got a clue that they’re looking for anything. Convince them that they need faith in you and that you have faith in them. Convince them that their friends and family outside the group are hindrances to their salvation. Isolate them. Only you can give them what they need. You love them. You alone love them. You would die for them. So why wouldn’t they die for you? But, love alone can only get you so far in winning them over. Fear is a great motivator. Fear that if they leave they’ll be destroyed. Fear that if they don’t cooperate they’ll be condemned. Fear that they can’t make it in this miserable world alone. The manipulator must make the recruit paranoid.


  442. Dear Graduates,

    It seems you got a lot of feedback, postive and negative on your post today. Hope you can take and learn what you can from the responses and if you do not mind I will add just a couple.

    My wife and I were philosophing about some of the things you wrote before you wrote it actually. Two things I noticed, it seemed a littlebit student like of you to write this style. And the other thing I think we have the Form (Sequence, Prayer) in the FOF now to bypass all these words and rationals; I am not saying there no place for it though and you do have a good though process; much better and clear than most of the other bloggers in my opinion.

    My wife asked me can you verify the soul when you are sleeping, 1st state? Because it is functioning this time, right? My answer was the machine has this in it’s design I guess? But then she said, the only way 100% she could verify her Soul is if she became Unconscious, sleep, accident, and then her SOUL appeared to her. I thought this was interesting.

    Confused had a good analogy of separating from his body. I have not verified with certainity that C influence has arranged my play but from my from past verifications I see some connections but the main point I would really like to make, is that maybe it is not necessary to think of C influence as helping us. But only to think of ourselves making all the nesessary EFFORTS to helping us to attain our aims if they are to Be present and sustain presence. If this effort means to bring C influence or a School in the eqaution then go with it.

    But this blog is behond this so I will stop my train of thought for now, thank you.


  443. Fat Boy ~

    Hummm… good question from your wife… Does not your presence ‘appear to you’ upon awakening in the morning?

    Does not the body come to life parallel to your presence; if you are not ‘there’ what else ‘is’ that gets the bag of bones to do everything it needs and does not need to do during the day?

    How is it that we cannot remember what we did specifically last week, sometimes not even as far back as 2 days?

    What distinguishes memories from recollections; that is, how is it that we can recall, yet, often find a memory that we did not consciously know we had?

    What goes to sleep? Can we say that the ‘spirit’ and the ‘body’ both require their own ‘form’ of 1st state?

    Does the body dream or the spirit?

    If the body dreams, then all dreams would be basically the same, yes?

    Does the body and spirit share the dream state?

    Is the dream state a free for all, where your spirit, body and other ‘influences’ may enter freely and show certain ‘things’?

    Dreams do not always reflect the same depth and scope; like our understanding and being, they change and vary.

    Is your spirit simply dreaming inside your body’s functions, including the SPACE within the workings of the brain; could your dreamworld be your spirit experiencing the inside of your body, the organs communicating too?

    If you found yourself outside your body one night, fully awake, fully aware of ‘I’, saw your sleeping ‘body’ laying on the bed, noticed that it was indeed ‘you’, yet, not you…

    then what?

    I have found that all questions cease at this depot; yet this ‘depot’ can be accessed while in the spirit/body state as well, so to speak…
    _________________

    l.t.y.a.

    You got the ‘444’… well, habits are hard to beat, yes?
    _


  444. Happy Mush

    There is no structure, no restrictions, no limitations and no need for tension because we are all already conscious. We are all complete, all one, all cheerfully free and all you have to do is throw your “system” out the window and disable the left side of your brain like every other brilliantly dimwitted solar. We are non-duality, decaffeinated, no-worries and ring-around-the-rosies. If you can pretend to be cheerful enough then you are enlightened, but you really have to convince yourself and ignore all these serious people wasting their time with concerns over denying force.

    Advertizing higher consciousness without acknowledging any denying force against its development is B influence. B influence is imagination about consciousness rather than actual consciousness. The emotional story of the intellectual center is an inviting labyrinth of intriguing and beguiling impossibilities ever sought after by impractical and lost seekers of cheap marvels.

    The Fourth Way is a discipline, a way of escaping identification and illusions while replacing them with reality. Reality in general, the objective experiencing of the real world, is non-negotiable. It is especially non-negotiable when it comes to the sensibilities of the naive and those that have yet to understand the teaching facility of significant suffering. Each flamboyant personality has to fit himself into the mold of reality, reality refuses to fit itself into the mold of the imaginary and the false.

    “All the children are insane, waiting for the summer rain.”


  445. Hey Graduates ~

    Digging around in Part 12 tonight, I found that you (Scott) was using the title ‘A Former Student’ while simultaneously someone else was using it as well… I recall hearing something about this, though do not recall where… Can you explain; just curious as to the ‘how’ part (?) No need to though, if you do not wish…

    446

    “…and those that have yet to understand the teaching facility of significant suffering.”
    ________________________

    Scott, shall we be the ones to hurry up those who are running as fast as they can, so they will trip, so we can then say ‘you were running too fast’, I told you so. (?)

    I cannot do this to people and truly do not understand your fire and brimstone fury-aims…

    Is there some crisis that’s a bit deeper than these silly words we have to use to skim the surface of our reflections, going on in you; what was your experience with the FoF? Can you share something personal, just a story, anything, like the making of a song or something that happened to you today…?
    ______________

    Some of our replies to your ‘highlighted post’ reminds me of a time when a very close friend of mine was dying of cancer, she was only 32 and very dear to my heart; she was a student of the Fellowship of Friends, she did not agree with the teaching, the workings of the inner, inner, inner circle and had joined mainly for the form that the school took while ‘living’ in centers away from ISIS…

    One late night, she awoke, I was already up; I saw her for some time before she saw me, trying to soak up as much of her quiet, wordless impression as possible, she could literally leave (die) at any moment (my sense);

    I could almost see the silhouette of death gently embracing her feminine form; it’s a strange juxtaposition, for, to me, death seems to place upon another a sort of odd sexless sort of aura, something otherworldly, something very profound, it removes the newspaper articles and reveals something that’s very naked, I mean, a nakedness underneath the body’s nakedness; to behold this is beyond religion, so real, that ‘normal real’ seems oftentimes covered with cheesecloth or aluminum foil…

    She was just lifting herself off the bed when she saw me looking at her from my desk, I said something, she said something, I replied, she replied… quietness,

    then the question that shook my world…

    Unoanimo, have you ever been wrong?

    The way she said it, the intonations, the stoppages she applied to certain syllables and the lengths of pauses between those five words… I knew what she was ‘saying’, not ‘asking’…

    Then another, as if the earth exploding wasn’t enough, we’ve gotta take out the sun & moon too!

    Unoanimo, have you ever NOT had an answer for everything?

    It was as though when she said the word ‘NOT’, it untied a knot or made one in a third juggler I didn’t really need… not sure which.
    _______________________________________

    This is where I met C-Influence as well; this is where I verified that no matter what we ‘think’, the rules always change in regards to that dimension this flesh-luggage simply cannot go, that we are actors, spectators and projectors…

    I made it a deep task to say ‘I don’t know’ as much as my conscience quickly wished to say it;

    at this point in my life, I cannot truly say it for sure, yet, I feel it is true in principle, I understood, I felt that I owed myself more than answers, thoughts, I owed myself a certain kind of sense, a sense that went far beyond words, answers, lies or exaggerations so to have answers for everything, for it is possible to self-invent a method for answering every question;

    I think I had developed this in my psyche automatically due to some family oddities, among some other weirdnesses… it’s a long story… Freud would call it ‘compensation-ish’.

    This ‘sense’ guides me to this day and I am very glad that this morning, after reading your posts, past and present, that in regards to the ‘correct’ way for your soul to gather what it has apparently somehow gotten down here to gather, I can with deep love say ‘I don’t know’.

    Yet, we can love, and we can sense beyond our automations, our predictabilities, our first, second and third thoughts, our obvious yesterdays, our rather probable patterned tomorrow;

    Though, in the now, none know who will fall or who will rise, none know where knowing comes from, only that it is here and we do not stay to watch it’s last sunset or sunrise…

    At some undisclosed point in this one and only moment, we will close this book and move on, undisturbed by opinion, unfettered by court cases, alimony, taxes, etc.

    Yet, surely, the shear vividness of our present place existence speaks for itself something beyond words, beyond science, beyond anything thought about, what it is ‘I don’t know’.

    Nonetheless, we care share it, give it without direct sharing, maintain it, guide, nurture and even abandon it; you are a part of my mystery and I do not reject you, ever, because, ‘I don’t know’…
    ____________________

    l.t.y.a.


  446. on August 6, 2007 at 10:27 am Bass Ackwards

    Confused #379/354

    I read your post and found myself in it. Been there. Done that. Had those “I’s”, those questions. No one here, no one, no matter how eloquently they try, can give you an answer. An answer that needs to come from your own Self. I liked Fat Boy’s #393 posting referring to Laura’s advice to him. It is good and true, pointing to the only way home.

    Finally, you nor I cannot verify, evaluate, or pass judgment on Robert Burton’s level of being. It is a contradiction not solvable on the level of mind. That he has higher energies functioning seems clear. If he was just some Joe spouting off a bunch of knowledge to a bunch of seekers, there would have been no School, no magic, no Fellowship of Friends, no Renaissance/Apollo/Isis, no counteracting blog, no nothing. But he does emanate something, something that is different from what you or I have ever experienced. So, we call it Consciousness. If you want, you may find it interesting to read, in case you have not already, an older post of mine when I tried to personally examine, why I considered Robert Burton to be a Conscious being? See discussion 14 # 359.

    Here, in case it is helpful, is a little more of my personal story. About 17 years ago (in spite or because of all the contradictory information surrounding the Teacher), I decided that I could have no idea of who or what he really was but I could try instead to focus on Self Remembering and the School. Considering that I had already lost precious time, the previous 4 or 5 years, trying to solve an unsolvable contradiction, I found it necessary and practical to attempt to go beyond mind. So, I reached an intentional decision to simply exist in the space of having no “I’s” about RB at all (as much as it was possible to do so) – not pro – not con – but to let it rest as such, an unsolvable enigma and get on with my life (within the School).

    I got as far away from Isis as I could, finding myself jaded in body, mind, and spirit. Ready for fresh impressions and the fresh Presence of fellow students. To be truthful, for these years, that effort has been for the most part possible, for which I am very grateful. The time and the healthy environments in which I have been have helped to counteract the unhealthy environment from which I emerged. However, the last few years, as Robert began actively Teaching once again, it became less and less possible to remain neutral towards the Teacher. I needed to adopt at least a positive attitude, which of course I did, in gratitude for the environment of the School. The bizarre marketing efforts were explainable. The Keys were explainable. The Sequence was explainable.

    But then my dearest Friends began to question Robert and the School, and I began to explain. C Influence created a sexually abused, gay, greedy, competitive, dominant King of Hearts Saturn to found our School. It was not the most complimentary picture of things, but hey, more accurate than most other explanations. Perhaps similar to the founding of the Villa Borghese in Rome, it was the mechanical mix that was needed? Robert was our Cardinal Scipione?

    Then Adyashanti hit. The blog began. I discovered Nisargadatta. And, amongst so many other posts, I read Whale Rider’s story. A bolt of lightning ran through my heart, mind and body. I literally could hardly move for about a week (due to an already weakened immune system). I finally understood that Robert was (Consciously) stuck and so was our School. I wrote Girard. I wrote Asaf. But nothing happened. Nothing moved. More Friends left and still continue to do so, as each student discovers his or her own Truth.

    And what is my Truth now? Only this: a Teacher of Consciousness can and should have carte blanche to destroy Personality but not Essence. Essence is what we grow from, it contains the seed of all higher possibilities in man. It is the place from which we can know and recognize truth, presence, love, honor, integrity, and courage. It is the place from which we experience our connection to the world around us, both visible and in-. Destroy that, and you destroy the man (or woman). In our School, we have come to mistake pathology for psychology. An error of the gravest magnitude.

    So, dear Confused, I can only encourage you to dig deeper into yourself to find such qualities, share them with your Friends, and be brave enough to live the question and the answer whatever it may reveal itself to be.

    Love,
    Bass


  447. 446. Graduates.
    Accepting the fact that your mode of expression so far is like a martial preacher and looking beyond it, as being something you have somehow developed as a form of protection or way of being. I thoroughly enjoyed your last post, I guess we are all playing roles on one side of the coin or the other in here when we are not like Uno, who runs around the edge making forrays into either side.
    I was going to re-post a part of it but found it too hard to choose which so heres the lot again in brackets.
    ( “Happy Mush By Graduates.
    There is no structure, no restrictions, no limitations and no need for tension because we are all already conscious. We are all complete, all one, all cheerfully free and all you have to do is throw your “system” out the window and disable the left side of your brain like every other brilliantly dimwitted solar. We are non-duality, decaffeinated, no-worries and ring-around-the-rosies. If you can pretend to be cheerful enough then you are enlightened, but you really have to convince yourself and ignore all these serious people wasting their time with concerns over denying force.
    Advertizing higher consciousness without acknowledging any denying force against its development is B influence. B influence is imagination about consciousness rather than actual consciousness. The emotional story of the intellectual center is an inviting labyrinth of intriguing and beguiling impossibilities ever sought after by impractical and lost seekers of cheap marvels.
    The Fourth Way is a discipline, a way of escaping identification and illusions while replacing them with reality. Reality in general, the objective experiencing of the real world, is non-negotiable. It is especially non-negotiable when it comes to the sensibilities of the naive and those that have yet to understand the teaching facility of significant suffering. Each flamboyant personality has to fit himself into the mold of reality, reality refuses to fit itself into the mold of the imaginary and the false.

    “All the children are insane, waiting for the summer rain.”)

    Yes and ” ride the kings highway”
    Thanks for putting into words some of the thoughts I have been trying to formulate, my only advice is to try to say it coated in sugar, otherwise a solar will never swallow it.
    lty. Cy.


  448. Ah Dolly Burton.
    ” Sometimes its hard
    to be a teacher
    Giving all your lust
    to just one student.
    Youve had some hard times
    youve had some floppy times
    When nights were cold and lonely
    untill viagra came along.
    But now its playtime
    even in the daytime
    Doin things that we dont understand
    But If you love him
    youll forgive him
    even though its hard to understand
    Cause after all hes just a man
    “chorus” Stand by your teacher,
    sperm helps him be a preacher
    give him some dicks to suck on
    Before he dehydrates and
    transfer your money to him
    Before the IRS do him
    god knows he needs a
    fin an cial helping hand.”

    I dont know the original well enough. Cy.


  449. 429 ~

    “In the case of the SOF Randazzo was brought to justice by the law, locked up in a federal prison for his crimes as a ‘teacher’ and the group has long been dissolved.

    In the case of the FOF this has not occurred as yet but it will happen eventually, the signs of degeneration are very obvious now.”
    _________________________

    Hummmm… what’s that sound I hear? 1678 scratching chins, amongst other ‘scratchy places’ trumpeting, when such ‘things’ enter one’s unsuspecting “dichotomy”,
    slipped in between trying to be conscious and being in conscience…

    Oh, yes, I believe I did once hear something about a train coming to Oregon House…

    BTW, Whalerider can you take a peek at Post 468/12 (Part 12) and let me know the answer to that one, I never got it and still don’t get it… thanks.

    Cyclops ~ BTW; I have not forgotten about that letter to you about the Conspiracy Thingy and don’t go dissing me about the three sided coin thing, after all, it does have three sides and I play them for all they’re worth in here; by now, you not knowing that about me, I would think someone was impersonating you: is that really YOU cyclops?

    _________________________

    l.t.y.a.


  450. Other uses for Viagra ~

    So, Galleria Flower Octave, that’s your secret!

    Damn, you guys are clever; with all those pills being tossed around in the dark, one was bound to fall into that big vase under the chandelier sooner or later… And with such hawk attentions it’s no surprise that after 10 years someone would notice the effect …
    _____________________________

    From Wikipedia ~

    “Prevention of plant wilting

    A low-concentration solution of sildenafil (Viagra) in water significantly prolongs the time before cut flowers wilt; one experiment showed a doubling in time from one week to two weeks. The mechanism of action is similar to that in humans: nitric oxide leads to the production of cGMP whose degradation by PDE5 is inhibited by sildenafil.[18]

    _____________________________________________

    wow, and all along you guys thought it was because of the influence of C-Influence;

    V-Influence to the rescue!

    ;.0


  451. hI uno .
    how strange.. I “envy” the place on the edge of the coin
    twas a kiss not a diss.
    I work towards being there more often, but find myself falling to one side and its the side that agrees with the need for system.
    I guess we all try to support what has given us relief from our existential suffering, hoping that it might help others. So often while not agreeing with what someone says I thank them for caring enough to say it, as I know where that comes from.
    LTY cy.
    PS. The friend in your beautifull story above her name didnt begin with j did it?


  452. on August 6, 2007 at 2:32 pm Another Name

    Dear Confused, Bruce and others

    It is part of the process of seeing what is going on to be confused and ask yourself questions. It is part of the process to be completely bewildered. To have this inner confusion of what the heck is going on. Moments that something in you goes crazy. Focus on your breathing. Relax. Slow deep breaths, and listen to your inner ….I think it is your conscience, give it time. The answers are all in you. Sorry, yes we had a “teacher’ for many years. He forgot to tell you that the answers are all in you.

    What about states. Remember the six packs of beer on the couch. A glass of wine, when you had nothing to eat. Running gives you a” high”. Shopping gives a different state and when you come home, your high comes down. Not sleeping, an orgasm gives you another state. Taking care of a sick person. Stopping the “I”s. All states….You can become independant. Scarry? Yes and no. Go verify for yourself. Your own inner breathing will show you the part that is quiet. The body that goes “help” I am scared and want support and be in a group and life outside the fellowship of friends is crazy. Just watch…give it time. Many friends (and non friends) are going through the same at this point. In and out of Oregon house. Call out, they will answer.
    I have done breathing work on and of for years. And now after some many years something is there quiet when I focus on my breathing. The body still goes crazy and I listen to it and now I try to honor it and not put it down as the lower self. Putting down the lower self did not work for me at all. For a metaphor: It does not help you do not beat up your car al the time and treat it as something of less value.
    Me in my body is what is “Home” what is my “Teacher” what is now. Dependency on externals is a drug and brings you nowhere except maybe disillusioned and a need to drug yourself up when you go crazy or when you are closer to your dead.
    Honor the spirit and the body. Listen to all the needs and desires and what comes up when you are silent…do not act upon all your needs and desires. Listen and right action will follow more and more. It is all in you. (Sorry that we all thought that we had to be in the fellowship which called itself a real School
    Confusion is a factor in becoming ill. Have you ever seen somebody being sick. Watch, observe it is part of an inner conflict, a conflict of the body and spirit. A call of something is “wrong”. It is an alarm bell.
    Dear Confused, confused is O.K., just watch and do not get sucked into. It passes.
    If you can hear the voice of your conscience which has not been discouraged in the fellowship of friends, you will know what to do. The changes will be uncomfortable as the body really does not like changes (verify for yourself). Changes will be always uncomfortable for the body. As you get more in tune with your inner conscience you will be able to deal better with the body too.
    Courage my heart far worse has thou endured (Author ?)
    I will repeat what Bruce wrote about a socio path. To acknowledge that my “Teacher” is a sociopath was one of the hardest realization in my life an still is. So many lies….I will stop here…it still hurts too much.

    “A sociopath is mainly identified by there being something very wrong with a person’s conscience. They either 1) have a conscience with “holes” in it, 2)they don’t seem to have one at all or 3) they are able to completely neutralize their sense of conscience into a perspective that they aren’t doing anything wrong.
    One thing is for sure: Sociopaths only care about themselves and only see themselves as being “real” or truly human. Everybody and everything outside of themselves are twisted in their mind into mere objects to be used to achieve personal fulfillment.
    A sociopath often believes that they are doing nothing wrong or doing something greatly good, due to their egocentricity and grandiose sense of self-worth. They will cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please at any expense of anyone in their lives; predators who satisfy their lust for power and control through superficial charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence.”

    Much Silence for you all.


  453. on August 6, 2007 at 2:45 pm Another Name

    Dear Bass,

    You truth? Why not give up your “Teacher” and conciousness for a week or more and be silent. Give up your “books”. Be alone with your breath and your body. Your body which has messages for you. Breate and feel the tension, the pain, the numbness all messages from your conscience to the physical world?

    Give it a try and do not be afraid of the process. You have nothing to loose, as all is already in you.

    Look inside, there is your jewel.

    Love and Healing for you.


  454. on August 6, 2007 at 2:57 pm Another Name

    Dear fat boy and wife.

    I have been unconscious and my soul appeared? Some people have very vivid memories/ impressions being in a coma and many books are written on this subject. Maybe I remember somebody sitting next to me….there was an awareness but without words. After this period I was never the same and realized how fast this physical body could be gone. I had other out of body experiences….great scary states.
    I verify my soul/ spirit daily just by breathing. This took me years to be able to have such a easy access. Some wise “non teacher”, was patient with me and explained and we would sit and breathe in silence.

    What I try to say: we seem to look outside our self and all is inside our self.

    Love


  455. We become what we eat!
    Anyone close to RB notice if he is starting to resemble a big pink Taco?
    Ltya. Cy.


  456. on August 6, 2007 at 3:25 pm wake up little suzy wakeup

    Within the silence are all the answers. “Ask and it is given”


  457. Thanks to Survivor #429 and Bass Ackwards #451 for your personal stories. Sharing our personal experiences is a great help to those who are questioning.


  458. on August 6, 2007 at 3:37 pm Living the Questions

    #427, Draco
    Great post. Thanks. That is what I call real relativity and scale.
    -Nancy G


  459. 451 Bass Ackwards: Great post, but not sure about: “That he has higher energies functioning seems clear. If he was just some Joe spouting off a bunch of knowledge to a bunch of seekers, there would have been no School, no magic, no Fellowship of Friends, no Renaissance/Apollo/Isis, no counteracting blog, no nothing.”

    There are some unnecessary assumptions in this. Seems more likely to me that RB was/is in fact just a “Joe spouting off”, and that we invented the rest because we wanted to believe it.

    cheers, RN


  460. About the Older student/Younger student: Maybe this is an old FOF angle can’t be sure. It “sounded true” to me at the time, now I’m not so sure.

    Knowledge/Understanding/Being. Whosoever understands what they know has higher Being and therefore the elder/older student.


  461. 465 Arthur

    …and don’t forget the old saying: Your being attracts your wife.


  462. And the relatively new saying
    “your dong attracts your teacher”
    Cy.


  463. Dear Confused:

    Consider this: if Robert Burton is indeed conscious, that makes his crimes all the more pernicious.

    Dear Graduates:

    THANK YOU for speaking in your own words rather than from quotes! I can sense from the muscular, ‘take no prisoners’ tone of your posts that you take this work very, very, very, seriously.

    Whoever said anything about no denying force? Unless you are a billionaire, life itself has a way of keeping false personality in check, haven’t you noticed? You don’t always get what you want…

    Jeeze, just maintaining clarity-a clear mind- in a society saturated with advertising takes effort!

    To actually realize and act upon your divinity while being conscious of your shortcomings requires a great deal of work and being. We are human, only Allah is perfect. But if a person is made too acutely aware of their shortcomings, they are forced to project their divinity upon others. Is that what you are doing, setting yourself up as a target for people’s projections by making them feel inadequate?

    Allow me to quote Rumi, which I rarely do:

    “If you are seeking, seek Us with joy
    For We live in the kingdom of joy.
    Do not give your heart to anything else
    But to the love of those who are clear joy,
    Do not stray into the neighborhood of despair.
    For there are hopes: they are real, they exist-
    Do not go in the direction of darkness-
    I tell you-suns exist.”

    We can learn from all the types-look at all the destruction that “dimwitted” martials have wrecked upon the world, no one type is better than the others!…here’s a task for you-practice radiating positive energy all day like a solar, but make it conscious love to everyone…and you will have all the denying force you need to be more awake. See what comes back to you!

    Dear unoanimo:

    IMO=in my opinion. Is that what you are asking?

    Quid pro quo-what is the significance of ending your post with “word!”…is it having the last word?

    BTW-I think of dreaming in first state like ‘defragmenting’ your hard drive. IMO, dreams help to synchronize our conscious mind with what is happening in our unconscious mind. The short term memory is housed in the intellect; the long term memory is housed in the unconscious mind. The soul or spirit is the observer of both…and craves harmony. Most memories are state-dependent, that is, to access them we have to be in a similar state to when the memory is formed.

    Dear Survivor:

    Thanks you for your post. Tell us more-what made you to leave the SOF?

    Nancy G-

    I am glad you are still posting. Your voice is important here, and I would be remiss to scare you off.


  464. Socrates’ disciple and gossiping

    A disciple came very agitated to Socrates’ home and as soon as he entered the door he started speaking to him as follows:

    ”Master, I want to tell you that two days ago I met a friend of yours. You must know that he spoke very badly about you… and he said awful things to some of his friends… since I came to visit you, I want to tell you everything I heard, so that you know what kind of friends you have…”

    At this, Socrates smiled and, after making a gesture full of compassion, he interrupted him by saying:

    ”My dear, wait a second and before you tell me, think well! Have you already passed what you wish to tell me through the three spheres of the wise man?”

    The disciple answered:

    “The three spheres? But I do not even know that such things exist! What are the three spheres of the wise man, because I know nothing about that?”

    “Well, because you do not know, I will initiate you now in the secret of the three spheres of the wise man”, answered Socrates. “THE FIRST SPHERE IS THAT OF THE REAL TRUTH. Have you investigated yourself carefully and you eventually found out that everything you intend to tell me is completely true, from all points of view? Are you completely sure that what you want to tell me is the REAL TRUTH?”

    “No”, answered the disciple. “Because I only heard that friend of yours saying some awful things about you to some of his friends who he was talking to.”

    “Now I begin to realize what it is all about. Let’s move on to THE SECOND SPHERE, WHICH IS THAT OF GOODNESS AND BEAUTY. What you want to tell me, is it something good? It is something beautiful?”

    “No, on the contrary, it is exactly the opposite… when I will tell you what that friend said about you, you will shiver with disgust and you will probably be very upset.”

    “Aha! It starts to be even more clear now”, said Socrates. “Let’s move on to THE THIRD SPHERE, WHICH IS THAT OF NECESSITY AND BENEFITS. Do you really think it is necessary and also beneficial for me to know everything that man said about me?”

    “To be honest, no. I do not think it is necessary for you and, besides, I did not find any benefit in anything that man said about you; on the contrary, it is something despicable related to you.”

    “In that case”, smiled Socrates, “if what you want to tell me is not THE REAL TRUTH, it is not something good and beautiful and it is absolutely unnecessary for me, because it does not bring me any benefits, it is best that you give up telling me any of these. Forget everything, be completely detached, and now, since you passed by, you should know that I am much happier to speak about either something beautiful, or something good, or about the delights of love. And if none of these subjects is interesting for you, know that I would be very happy to share from my experience regarding the everlasting advantages of wisdom.”


  465. Dear Who Knows:

    Do you truly think it NOT NECESSARY AND BENEFICIAL for potential sexual partners of RB (and especially sexual partners of sexual partners, etc) to receive clear and open news of any sexually transmitted diseases affecting RB and/or his many lovers?


  466. on August 6, 2007 at 5:56 pm Was KathleenW

    Dear Who Knows:

    Do you truly think it NOT NECESSARY AND BENEFICIAL for heterosexual male students to be told that the price of gifts and favor from and personal time with Robert will be the expectation of sexual encounters, and that those expectations will be expressed through manipulation, pressure and disregard for those students’ sexual orientation or current relationships?

    Do you really think this is okay? Have you been reading this blog for long?


  467. There have been many postings which touch on the subjects of abuse and transformation, these are area’s in which as a student I have experienced a lot of overlap and confusion. First a true story about a couple, picture this…

    The point of view of the ‘abused’
    The Teacher has asked your partner to dinner, you are happy and excited for him. Some friends invite you to a gathering, because he would like the car it’s decided that he will pick you up when he’s ready. At the appointed hour he does not arrive.

    Knowing that he won’t want to come in you go outside and wait on the veranda. It is deep winter and snow and rain have been falling intermittently. You wait for a while and when the cold is unbearable you go back in. Some time later you hear a horn hooting in the distance. You jump up, say goodbye to your friends again, and leave. Outside the rain is falling heavily… He’s still hooting and flashing his lights. You wonder why he doesn’t seem to want to come up the drive to collect you; perhaps he doesn’t want to get the car dirty, but you would prefer not to give it much thought? You step off the veranda and the slush pours over the sides of your evening shoes and up to your ankles. It doesn’t matter you think. They are just shoes.

    It’s hard to find your way to the car in the dark, the boundaries between the path and various abysses have been wiped out by eddies of mud and melting snow, and sharp shrubs tear up suddenly. As you wade and slip, the hooting and flashing continues. The panic that had set in earlier is beginning to master you. When you finally reach the car you collapse in managing to smile nervously. But the atmosphere is thick, black. He recoils from you ,your clothes are sopping wet and there’s mud and twigs up to your knees; you are concerned about soiling the car. You ask nervously:
    “How was it? Did the Teacher speak to you?”
    “Why did you keep me waiting so long?” he snaps.
    You try to explain, your words are jumbled and at the end you manage squeak “…and why are you angry?”
    He turns in the driver’s seat, the darkness of his rage is almost radiant, his fist hits you in the cheek and eye, your shoulder thuds against the car door as you crumple.

    As the stars subside you wonder what will happen next. You realise the car is going very fast. He’s looking ahead unflinching. You want to get out but you don’t know where you are and it’s so black outside.

    You try to divide your attention.

    (Do you have a higher state? …No)

    When the car stops you clamber out and go straight to the bathroom. You don’t run because you know he will then chase you. You lock the bathroom door, peel off your sodden clothes and stand there trembling. You try to divide your attention.

    (Do you have a higher state? …No)

    He asks to come in. He starts to beg. He says he’s sorry, he says it was a mistake, a test for our relationship.

    This is the man for whom you have pined. This is the man for whom you gave up everything. This is the match made in heaven. You decide to ‘transform’.

    (Do you have a higher sate? …No)

    “You must tell no one” he says. “We must work this out between ourselves”. The next day you your face is blown up like a balloon and your eye hardly shows at all. It’s the Christmas holidays, you are visitors, there are many events but you stay at home in the bedroom hiding, checking in the mirror as the eye goes from red to purple to black to green, to yellow.

    He is kept busy, the Teacher is giving him a lot of attention, you are glad for him and hope that it will make him better. You don’t talk about the incident… He won’t, he becomes very tense, doesn’t see the need for it.

    After five days you coat your face in makeup and drive with him to the Oregon house store. You wait in the car while he goes inside. An acquaintance comes over ‘Are you alright she says?’ you look away from her and mutter ‘yes’ hoping she will go away.

    You do not allow yourself any self pity. You know that others in the world have had to endure much, much worse. This is an opportunity for you to transform, to become closer to him. He will understand one day, he will learn and he will truly love you for what you have forgiven.

    (Do you have a higher state? …No)

    Surely you reason this is payment in advance? Or payment in retrospect?
    (Maybe)

    THE END
    But not the end. The story repeats again and again. Strangely but maybe not so strangely, the Teacher never helped… more about that later.

    The ‘abuser’
    I don’t know how it goes for the abuser. With no irony intended I can only ask: When your knuckles hit the flesh of the intended do you feel the peace and resolution that you may have hoped it would bring? Is there any lasting gratification? Do you try to divide your attention?

    In the shock wave that follows, in the remorse or the lack of remorse Do you experience the longed for higher centres? That miraculous place where all that you had called by your name shrinks into insignificance, where you understand all, love all unconditionally, where God’s breath breaths through everything… weaves all together?

    There is also sexual abuse. Apparently this sometimes involves more planning because your goal is to make your target do something they would not otherwise wish. Depending on their age this may also be against the law. The target may need to be groomed: grooming can take years (if you have sufficient targets in the mean time you can afford this), or sometimes only a week. The target will need to be persuaded that what you long to do with them is normal, beautiful even, and very rewarding for all those involved.

    If they believe they depend on you in any way you can threaten to withdraw what they believe they need. If the person is really very small you can say to them that if they tell, they will loose the only person that they feel truly safe with… truly loved by, you can threaten that Love.

    I would ask you now; once you have enacted your desire do you feel relieved? Do you feel great love for the one you have taken? Do you divide your attention? Are you afraid? Do you feel a better person? Do you experience a higher state?

    Do you feel that your target enjoyed the experience, or doesn’t that matter? If it’s a little person and they weep, how do you feel? Do you feel remorse? Or are you free of that? Was it for the greater good?

    Friends of the ‘abused’ and the ‘abusing’
    One thing I’ve noticed about abused students is that when we discover one another, we like each other, or at least there is a certain solidarity. We can talk about what we have separated from, what we have forgiven, how we have ‘transformed suffering’. We can feel that we have worked against Feminine Dominance. We understand and may even congratulate one another. We do not judge the people who hurt us too harshly, we struggle to be grateful for our play which has offered us so much opportunity for ‘transformation’.
    In my experience Students who are caught in a ‘play of suffering’ (cycle of abuse) tend to avoid speaking to those who would ‘not understand’, who would not be able to transform.

    The same seems to be true for ‘abusers’. They are pleased when they discover others (who the rest of society would describe as) having similar ‘failings’… at last there is solidarity. They feel relatively safe with each other, more secure. Perhaps they will even shield each other. Create environments where secrecy is preserved. Perhaps they tell each other that they are above Feminine Dominance, that they are the ones who understand the real laws of the universe. Perhaps they dream of a post apocalyptic world in which their truer longings can be freely gratified. Their enemies are not those that they ‘abuse’, but outsiders; people who would not ‘understand’.

    ‘Transforming’
    So what was this ‘transforming’ of suffering, which I for one had been practicing for years? And had it ever brought me to the longed for Higher centres?

    I think you know my answer.

    Looking back at situations where I’ve felt mistreated it is very clear that I used the expression the ‘transformation of suffering’ as a buffer. Rather than be present to what was before me: pain, hurt, anger, indignation, a broken dream, and cope with the consequences of this admission, I had applied a blindfold labelled ‘transformed’. And in this darkness the dream could remain intact.

    In a way I had been groomed for abuse in childhood. Every one has their story. My father ( having him self been cruelly treated) was prone to fantastic rages and the attendant violence. Often we had no idea why he was angry with us. But in a desperate bid to placate him, to maintain our dream feeling of being a ‘happy family’, we were constantly apologising and doing penance for the crimes he accused us of. When the system handed me the tool of ‘transforming suffering’ it was as easy as pie to miss-apply it.

    I only really began to touch on the fringes of this subject, as I was relinquishing Robert as my teacher. Help has come from many directions… there are so many of you out there in the greater Fellowship and even on the street who know more.

    One such example was my Yoga teacher. Having paid almost no attention to the health of the dreaded ‘instinctive’ centre for its life in the school I finally dragged myself to a class. After the first lesson the instructor asked me how I found it. I answered “It was Hell” he said “No, not Hell, Earth”. I asked him what I could do about the cramp I often got during the exercises and he answered
    “Don’t do anything, just really, really FEEL the pain”

    So, if now you are now what other people might ‘describe as the victim of sexual abuse’ and if you are uncertain about what is really happening, I would suggest trying the following. When the person ‘does their thing’ to you, try to be really, really PRESENT. This means not buffering.

    If it’s a man and you would prefer that it was a woman, (or vice versa) don’t imagine that it’s a woman. Try to really, really feel with each of your senses who IS before you, try to feel your natural un-rationalised response to them. If you have to tell yourself that the person is a ‘higher being’ this is also a buffer (even if they are) because you are still adding something to the immediacy of experience. If you have to tell yourself that the person is an ‘angel’ this too is likely to be a buffer; unless of course you can feel the brush and whiteness of their feathered wings…

    If you are what others (if they knew) might call an ‘abuser’ and it hurts you too sometimes… Go to someone on the outside. I suspect that you have nothing to lose.

    Cannot we all honestly say that if we ever really loved a person that that Love remains despite the hurt, despite the change in the relationship? Doesn’t that same feeling arise in our heart when we think of them? Is not the only thing lost the dream that we had projected on them, the expectations, the mirage?


  468. The Three Spheres of the Fellowship of Friends:

    THE FIRST SPHERE: THE UNREAL TRUTH…The outlying center…where you first join and hear the untruth that Robert Burton is a conscious being. (That kind of gossip is encouraged.)

    THE SECOND SPHERE: GOODNESS AND BEAUTY…Renaissance/Apollo/Isis…where you witness Robert Burton lavishing his charming goodness, attention and beautiful gifts on certain young male followers and not others…

    THE THIRD SPHERE: NECESSITY AND BENEFITS…Robert Burton’s bedroom…where you learn what is necessary to receive any benefits from his teaching.

    You should know that he is much happier to speak about either something beautiful (expensive), or something good (a new sexual conquest), or about the delights of love (Viagra enhanced lust). He cares to hear nothing about anything else.

    Woe to those wh must pass though all three spheres to wise up!


  469. on August 6, 2007 at 6:19 pm Dream Catcher

    Hello Confused, I remember you.
    You sat on the fence with Fence rider.
    Feeling confused myself then I could relate to you. I still do. I also stopped blogging for a while, stopped going to events, meetings etc.
    Like you I have to many judgement I’s about the boys, Robert. But I did go to a meeting recently and a reception. Had to find some answers…
    Is it really all over for me? “Confused”, I did verify that things have changed.
    I think Robert lost the magic. Lost the ability to create a higher state in others.
    I felt that for a long time and I just verified it again. Please read Anna Tudors’ letter. Page 16, 520. Very sincere! I think it will help you.
    Dream Catcher


  470. 472 Anna.
    Its hard to conceive of what you have experienced, but we must all make the effort!
    And that there are others too, even more abominable.
    Thank you for sharing the hell you have been through.
    If only it can penetrate some of the consciences which it is aimed at…
    It brings a much needed dimension to the problem of abuse and illuminates the descending spiral of crime which is instigated by the man who would be king.
    These words are trite, as any words are in relation to what you have been through.
    Its hard to feel any “sympathy for the devil.”
    What revulsion of himself your man must have felt and utter confusion.
    I learnt a long time ago that once is more than enough, but a woman in loves heart is too forgiving in this kind of situation.
    I had to remove a sister of mine from her husband once almost against her will, when it came to my attention that every time her man got drunk he beat her up for an indiscretion from years past, all the while he was doing the same at every opportunity, he was in a band so there were lots.
    I didnt beat him up, as more violence is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline, just removed her to my house.
    Eventually she remarried a younger man and healed.
    She and her husband developed a friendship for their daughters sake, its even worse when children are involved.’

    I remember being afraid to come home from school as a child, never knowing how the atmosphere would be, it was the root of the great fear I still have to separate from on a daily basis. In my case it was my mother who was violent, its not always the man.
    My father was a gentle man who hit me once then started crying and hugged me but I lost count of the violence my mother inflicted on me, I forgave her and came to love and understand her, before her death we became close again.
    That you are strong enough to share this for the benefit of others bodes well.
    No one should have to go through what you have been through.
    A truly conscious man would be aware of all of the consequences of his actions and curtail them accordingly, so it illustrates again the lack of consciousness and therefore concience of the queen of I’s I’s.
    Excuse me if I rambled, its just that your post touched me so deeply having been on the recieving end of such abuse I had to try to reach out to you.
    I cant say how it would have been If Id been in a relationship or marriage when it happened to me, of course Id like to think it would have been different, but cant be certain “there but for fortune stand you or I” as Joni Mitchell sang.
    Love to you Anna. again Thanks.
    Cy.


  471. 473 Whalerider.
    Brother, Im beginning to feel that part of healing would be for us to shed our aliases and let ourselves be known, for our own benefit as well as others, what do you think, are you ready?
    I will go first if you are.
    lty Cy


  472. on August 6, 2007 at 7:57 pm Laughing Love

    Hello Anna. (472)

    You express yourself beautifully.

    My response probably isn’t sufficient, but I feel compelled to respond on a few levels.

    I have a few brief thoughts that I hope to elaborate on later.
    First, the emotional remove that is required by the school is extremely damaging when dealing with actual abuse or, for that matter, anything in life. It’s dangerous! It’s like becoming a dead piece of meat that will be pummeled quietly.

    Second, abuse gets handed down through generations. It appears that Robert’s abuse is handed down.

    Lastly, during my time in the school and for several years after, I involved myself in several relationships which were emotionally abusive. (There was a bit of violence, but emotional abuse is extremely powerful. Silent, but deadly.)

    Looking back, my willful attempts to avoid i.e., “expressing negativity” created situations in which I allowed people to walk all over me. Also, not “identifying” with an event allowed me to accept the behavior. It was real trouble.

    Again, these two concepts, “transforming negativity” and “avoiding identifying” simply take one out of life. It actually, I believe, has the opposite of the intended effect. Indeed, they make one numb and unconscious.

    I actually really enjoyed transforming negative energy and do think it has some value. Yes, one must pick their battles, but one should not completely deny they exist.

    LL


  473. Dear Who Knows.
    Mmmmm…..the three spheres of the wise man? Reminds me of the four wordless breaths or the two nipples, (short be and long be) or the six steps to presence. “Dear, I will initiate you now in the secret of the two nipples.”

    For me the story is an excellent example of the, “Spiritual Bypass”;
    1) If you haven’t verified personally from all points of view that this is true then don’t tell me.
    2) If what you say is not something good or beautiful then I don’t want to hear
    3) If what you say does not bestow upon me an immediate personal benefit then I don’t want to know.
    “Forget everything be completely detached.”

    Can’t help thinking that if he’d listened to his, “disciple” and been less of a wiseass he might not have ended up in the slammer drinking poison.
    Ah well, guess that’s what happens when you live in a bubble waiting for shit to smell good?
    Love,
    Ryan.


  474. Anna #472

    Dearest Anna,
    Thanks for telling your story. I must say, I had heard about this when I was still in FOF. While my personal experiences with RB in the past and my observations and knowledge of RB’s excessive sexual use of other men confused me and made me doubt his integrity as a teacher or even as a human being, the knowledge of spousal violence by one of RB’s “butlers”, truly made me angry. When David would bring me a beer while I was watching sports with RB, I would often have the urge to smash the bottle over his perfectly shaped head. Of course, I never allowed these urges to be enacted. When restraint of violent urges disappears, we become criminals.

    I was often punched and teased by bullies during grade school, but I learned to not seek revenge. I always tried to use the experience to understand how I was better then the bullies. I learned to ignore and avoid the bullies–not so much out of fear, it was more like walking around a pile of dog poop on the sidewalk. Merely an unpleasant minor obstacle along my chosen path.

    I can hardly imagine how difficult it is when the violent abuse comes from a loved one.

    Once during the short period I served as RB’s “secretaries”, I had to physically fight him off when he ignored my wishes to not have sexual contact with him. We wrestled around on the floor for several minutes and I truly did have to use all of my strength to keep him off of me. At that time he probably outweighed me by about 100 pounds, but he was mostly flab—dead weight so to speak. The interesting part, is afterwards, he was laughing and seemed to enjoy the fight.

    Several weeks after that, I quit and went back to college to finish my degree. Probably one of the best decision I have made.

    So, while it is good advise to those victims of abuse to try and be present to the experience without buffering, it is an even wiser action to free yourself of the ties to that person that allow them to hurt you as soon as possible. Reaching out to others you trust is often the first step.


  475. 477. Ryan o’poo.
    He ended up in the slammer and drank hemlock, because some low characters he had refused to help get into office, as he knew their character, got into office anyway. One of the first things they did was to plot against him. Before he drank it one of his followers began to cry seemingly. He admonished him saying that he was making a mockery of his instruction. He reminds me a bit of Girard for some reason. All head.
    Of course its only a story but it rings true.
    lty. Cy


  476. 475 Cyclops–If you are ready, don’t let Whalerider hold you back. He may not be ready yet.


  477. 478 Dick Moron

    Do you remember when I reached the conclusion that you were sufficiently evolved for me to pass on to you the sacred ritual of the cashmere socks? Only cause I love you.


  478. 478. Dick Moron.
    I wonder if its the same David who I once waved down on Rices crossing road and told to slow down. He looked at me as if I was the biggest idiot in the world, then sped off.
    A few days later he wrote of a lexus almost killing himself and I heard later there was a female passenger who was injured but never did find out if it was true or if it was then who.
    As it was considered gossip.
    Again to have people at the limits of their being interacting with others while undergoing their psychic torture and in charge of a lethal weapon such as a human body or a car is not a recipe for anything good.
    lty. cy.


  479. I’ve been busy in the past few days since the Rushkin quote. I will probably not write on this site anymore – because actions speak louder than words. My passport has been ordered, I have created a field of influence and tried out my literature and ‘little inklings’ as well as a FULL-ON LIFE of permanent ‘see-do’ activity with my close and natural ‘common people’ friends, although a few I have had to push away from me only to act out the ‘courtroom’ play with Burton attending with a resolute atittude, free from male-to-male confrontation and mere ‘waffling’ about inner states.

    I will try to keep an accurate list of expenses, should you wish me to appear in the appropriate court. With hope.n.


  480. on 06 Aug 2007 at 9:13 am449 unoanimo
    Hey Graduates ~

    “Digging around in Part 12 tonight, I found that you (Scott) was using the title ‘A Former Student’ while simultaneously someone else was using it as well…”

    dEAR uNOANIMO
    i DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE REFERING TO EXCEPT THAT INITIALLY i POSTEED USING THE NAME OF A CURRANT fELLOWSHIP STUDENT. tHIS IS BECAUSE NOT HAVING HAD ANY CONTACT WITH THE CULT IN MANY YEARS IT APPEARED TO ME MORE LIKELEY TO BE A WAY OF ASCERTAINING AN OLD ACQUANTANCE THAN SIMPLE ASKING.

    i AM dUNCAN sHOCKLEY

    gADUATES IS gREG gOODWIN.


  481. Deleted on request of the author. — ES


  482. #451 Bass

    You make very good points in you post.
    I want to respond to one part that I question:

    “…. That he has higher energies functioning seems clear. If he was just some Joe spouting off a bunch of knowledge to a bunch of seekers, there would have been no School, no magic, no Fellowship of Friends, no Renaissance/Apollo/Isis, no counteracting blog, no nothing. But he does emanate something, something that is different from what you or I have ever experienced. So, we call it Consciousness.”

    I think charisma and unwavering (lunatic) self-confidence in a spiritual leader can easily be perceived as higher being. Many such leaders have built impressive organizations and facilities. Jim Baker built a pretty elaborate Christian “theme park” for his followers to use. Oral Roberts and Jerry Falwell founded universities. From what I hear, Jonestown was pretty impressive considering the poverty of the members and the location in a tropical jungle. The list could go on.

    The thing is, all these people (including RB) were basically presenting knowledge gleaned from other’s teachings and writings. I think it was all in their presentation. I think our perceptions of RB’s “emanations” were really self-induced by our need to believe in him.

    I joined FOF after a friend I respected for his spiritual development, gave me one of Ouspensky’s books with a bookmark in it. He had joined FOF about 9 months before.
    I read the books, attended prospective student meetings and joined based on the ideas and the people I met at the meetings.
    I had no idea that there was a guy named Robert who was the teacher. During my first meeting where Robert sat in front with a group of “older students,” I assumed that Donald MacDonald was the teacher, based on his angles and his bearing. Only after the meeting did someone inform me that the guy to MacDonald’s left was the teacher.

    I think the “magic” came from all the sincere members and their efforts. It seems every group needs a leader and RB played that role well–at least in public.

    We built the school, with our efforts, love and money.


  483. 481 Bruce

    “Do you remember when I reached the conclusion that you were sufficiently evolved for me to pass on to you the sacred ritual of the cashmere socks? Only cause I love you.”

    Bruce,
    How many times do I have to remind you— you taught me the secret and sacred method of shining the Gucci shoes. I think Colin was still the cashmere sock washer and underwear ironer………
    Please–get it correct next time.


  484. on August 6, 2007 at 9:18 pm Another Name

    Dear Jack and others.

    Who ever you are Jack, thanks and wish you all that is well for you. great story. Awake or not enjoy your self and be the best friend you can be for yourself.


  485. #482 Cyclops

    According to what I was told…
    You are correct on all accounts.
    I hear he is a lawyer now–they can be the worst kind of bully.


  486. on August 6, 2007 at 9:35 pm More history needed?

    Abuse and Anna’s story.

    If this happened to Anna, it must have happened to other wives.

    Stand up wives: Bianca’s and Maja’s and others share your story.

    Not to gossip, to inform and worn each other.

    If Robert Burton is repeating a cycle of abuse are his followers imitating him?


  487. Hey Uno,
    Thanks for all your effort over at, Res ipsa loquitor.

    https://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2007/07/28/res-ipsa-loquitur/

    Love,
    Ryan


  488. Who Knows, #469:

    Who knew Socrates was into dispensing “thought-terminating cliches”? Sorry Socrates, but what a load of crap.

    “Forget everything, be completely detached, and now, since you passed by, you should know that I am much happier to speak about either something beautiful, or something good, or about the delights of love. And if none of these subjects is interesting for you, know that I would be very happy to share from my experience regarding the everlasting advantages of wisdom.”

    Glad to see he thinks so highly of himself. Sheesh!

    This reminds me of unoanimo’s post #449, where his dying friend asked, “Unoanimo, have you ever NOT had an answer for everything?” I came to something of a similar realization when my life melted down at a certain point, along with everything I thought I knew. I realized that for me the 4th Way was the ultimate grab-bag of “answers for everything,” which at some point along the way had simply become a stimulus-response mechanism to explain my every experience, rather than just EXPERIENCING the experience, without the need for explanations or answers.

    The experience of living without a net so to speak is, for me, the kind of “discomfort” that provokes awareness, as opposed to the self-satisfied comfort created when a label can be successfully applied to a person, behavior, thought, feeling — the “I-got-the-round-peg-in-the-round-hole-doesn’t-that-feel-good-even-if-the-peg-and-hole-are-wholly-imaginary” kind of FOF/4th Way kind of living.

    When looked at from this perspective, the “self-calming” impulse of having an answer for everything, Socrates sounds like an insufferable gasbag.


  489. 477 Ryan O’Poo

    “Ah well, guess that’s what happens when you live in a bubble waiting for shit to smell good?”

    I think you, and many others here, are so accustomed to smell poo, that you can’t distinguish anything else.


  490. The Monk, The Man and the Fish
    ( A Self-Fulfilling prophecy)

    by Zheng Dao,

    A solitary monk was carrying a large fish to his home to prepare it for his meal. As he walked along the path, a man approached from the other direction.

    As he reached hailing distance, the man called out “Monk! I see you coming! What is that you are carrying?”

    Not wishing to shout in the quietude of the forest path, the monk thought: “I will answer this man’s question when I am close enough that a shrill shout will not be necessary.”

    As the two approached one another closely, the monk opened his mouth to speak but he was cut off by another bellow from the other fellow.

    “Why did you not answer me, Monk?” The fellow demanded “Do you think I am unworthy of your time and voice? What kind of idiot monk would go about carrying a fish, anyway?!!”

    The monk again attempted to respond: “Why, sir,I….”

    To which the man exploded: “Sir??? Why do you call me sir with such sarcastic formality? Never in all my travels have I met a sarcastic monk carrying a stupid fish. What do you mean to do next? Whack me with that fish?”

    The monk, taken rather aback by the unexpected behavior, grasped the fish more tightly lest it slip from his grasp and into the dirt.

    “Ah Ha!” Cried the man. “I see you gripping that fish more tightly at the tail. I am now certain and with no doubt that you intend to whack me with that fish!”

    “Good man,” replied the monk, “why would I ever whack you with a fish?”

    “A trick question!!!” exclaimed the man. “I have seen this before. You will ask, and then (no matter what the answer!) will just haul off and whack me. You cannot fool me you charlatan!”

    “Do you wish to be whacked with the fish?” The monk asked.

    “I know your type, false monk,” the man answered. “You are no holy monk! You are a highway robber who would whack me with the fish to stun me and then steal my gold while I was disoriented in surprise.”

    “I do not know why I should do so,” the monk then explained, “but if your wish is to be whacked with a fish, I am happy to do so for you.”

    “Ah Ha!” The man cried again. “There we have the truth! It was your intention all along to do nothing but drag me into debate and then whack me with that fish!”

    “Good man,” the monk tried to explain, “I am on my way home to prepare my meal. We must be finished with this discussion, as the smell of the fish has attracted a tiger who would have a taste of us along with the fish!”

    By this time several other travelers and neighbors of the monk had gathered beside the path and were listening to the odd transaction, scratching their heads and wondering at the man with the strange fixation about being whacked with a fish. None of them noticed the tiger that the monk had seen moving toward them through the brush.

    “And so we see more lies!” said the man, gesturing to the crowd as he stepped squarely in front of the monk. “I see no tiger. And everyone knows that a monk is not allowed to eat fish. More proof that you are a highwayman dressed as a monk!!!”

    “Hear me well, people,” the man shouted as he blocked the monk from moving forward on the path, “this man is a brigand whose only intent is to whack me with that fish!”

    At which point, the monk said quietly “As you wish” and smacked the man squarely with the fish, knocking him out of the middle of the path. As the monk walked past and on toward home to make his meal, he could hear the man regaling the group who stood laughing at the roadside.

    “You see! You see!” the man shouted. “What sort of monk would go about whacking people with a fish? A fraud, I tell you!! A fraud, a charlatan and a brigand!”

    The tiger, deprived of his dinner of monk, man and fish, skulked off into the deep forest.


  491. #485 cyclops
    Hi Jack, Yes, I’m sure our paths crossed a few times. I was around when you were at Renaissance, though I always kept a pretty low profile so you may not remember me. I worked on costumes with Nette and sometimes worked the gatehouse on Sunday afternoons. I’ll send you a GF friend invite.
    ————————————————————————–
    Anna
    I was aware of David’s treatment of you. I think it was pretty common knowledge. I vaguely remember witnessing some incident in the turn-a-round by the lodge. If there was anything I could have done or said that would have made a difference , then I’m sorry. I never understood why you
    stayed with him so long. I’m glad you’ve made it out to the other side of all of “that”.
    ———
    Love to all,
    Christina


  492. #449, unoanimo:

    “I could almost see the silhouette of death gently embracing her feminine form; it’s a strange juxtaposition, for, to me, death seems to place upon another a sort of odd sexless sort of aura, something otherworldly, something very profound, it removes the newspaper articles and reveals something that’s very naked, I mean, a nakedness underneath the body’s nakedness; to behold this is beyond religion, so real, that ‘normal real’ seems oftentimes covered with cheesecloth or aluminum foil…”

    Ironically, or not so ironically, I had a very similar experience while our first child was being born. The baby was stuck in the birth canal for 4 hours — 4 hours of excruciating pushing for my wife, as the doctor monitored the baby’s oxygen levels getting dangerously low at times. I had been massaging her back for hours, half hour on, half hour off, alternating with the nurse. I had been up all night, and dawn was approaching. At one of my breaks I left the room just to get out for a minute, and I was overwhelmed by what I guess I would call a higher state, but unlike any I have had before or since. In that moment I could “see” life, or the life force, as it was straining to be born into another being. It seemed completely impersonal in a way, with no regard to the suffering it was causing my wife, the bearer of this life. It seemed like a force that was using her as an instrument for more life, regardless of whether it destroyed her in the process or not. It was very real, and not the usual picture of a benevolent god in any way. More like a “Kali” type of god — one hand holding life, the other destruction. The moment passed and I went back in. That was 16 years ago and it is as clear as if it happened today. Interesting.


  493. 473 WhaleRider

    Relax, man. There is more to life then blaming Robert.

    If you want to Heal, stop putting salt on your wounds.


  494. Who Knows,
    Are you the man or the fish?
    Ryan.


  495. 498 Ryan O’Poo

    I am not who you think I am.


  496. Innernaut (around) 492

    Who knew Socrates was into dispensing “thought-terminating cliches”? Sorry Socrates, but what a load of crap.

    Glad to see he thinks so highly of himself. Sheesh!

    When looked at from this perspective, the “self-calming” impulse of having an answer for everything, Socrates sounds like an insufferable gasbag.

    ******************

    Yeah that know-it-all Socrates, I mean, what an idiot. What an asshole. Why the hell are people still going on about the jerk 2400 years after his death? He must have really thought he was some kind of smartass, not like us really normal, ordinary, entirely plain people. People like us, people with absolutely no pretentions, people that know zero about the true nature of life, people that will be forgotten even before we die, we are the real heroes of the world. The salt-of-the-earth suburban backyard barbecuing, Walmart shopping, television staring, couldn’t offer even a stumbling-mumble about what the hell life is supposed to mean…why the hell ain’t anyone chiseling our faces into prime white marble? Why only these active type – got an answer for every kind of stupid question – famous Greek bastards getting all the glory? It ain’t right I tell ya, people should be admiring the completely forgettable, even militantly anti-intellectuals better than gasbags like Socrates. I sure-the-blip am not self-calming, you ask me something and I just look right at you and say, “How the fuck do I know?” and slurp up another slug of Budweiser. Most of us out here are more than asleep and pretty proud of it. We’re proud to be dumb. Put that in your freaking history books. There are truckloads more of us formatory silent majority nobodies than these mouthy philosophers so why don’t we just up and start our own version of the historical record where nobody is remembered for nothing? Grab your hammers and let’s bust up some statues!


  497. 498 Who Knows wrote: “Relax, man. There is more to life then blaming Robert. If you want to Heal, stop putting salt on your wounds.”

    The word “blame” is routinely thrown around to dismiss anyone — or try to dismiss anyone — who describes their negative experience with Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends. It’s “victim mentality.” etc. — so some people say.

    When someone is stuck in this mindset, anyone expressing anything remotely close to criticism is just being childish — so they believe.

    “Who Knows”: Your real moniker should be “Who Cares”.

    Because I haven’t seen anything as yet that indicates that you do care… that you care about anyone being harmed by Robert Burton or the Fellowship.

    You use the word “blame” because at some point the word took on a negative connotation. It implies that anyone who points out the unethical or criminal behavior of this man, is just “blaming.”

    Most people who are sincerely listening here see this blog for what it is… An attempt to share the truth that has been hidden for so long. The words hurt, I know. I know it hurts.

    But is this how you deal with the hurt? Is this your “buffer”?

    Where did you hear that revealing the truth was a bad idea? Where did you hear that lies were a good idea? Did you find it in the Egyptian texts, or in the Fourth Way, or in any religious or philosophical texts going back to the beginning of time? Did you hear it at one of the recent meetings?

    Not a rhetorical question at all. I’d like to know.


  498. 500 Who Knows: “I am not who you think I am.”

    I suspect from your writings that you are not who you think you are either.

    RN


  499. 503 2b

    I will repeat that:

    If you want to Heal, stop putting salt on your wounds.

    And maybe this would help you to understand me:

    The Bodhisattva Vow

    All beings, without number, I vow to liberate.
    Endless blind passions I vow to uproot.
    Dharma gates beyond measure I vow to penetrate.
    The way of the Buddha I vow to attain.

    Beings are numberless; I vow to awaken with them.
    Delusions are inexhaustible; I vow to end them.
    Dharma gates are boundless; I vow to enter them.
    Buddha’s way is unsurpassable; I vow to become it.


  500. And a nice story for the end of the day.

    ” Who knows:

    Many years ago a wise peasant lived in China. He had a son who was the gleam in his eyes and a white stallion which was his favorite belonging.

    One day his horse escaped from his grounds and disappeared into the fields outside the village. The villagers came to him one by one and announced their condolences. They said, “You are such an unlucky man. It is so bad.” The peasant answered, “Who knows. Maybe it’s bad, maybe it’s good.”

    The populous left. The next day the stallion returned followed by twelve wild horses. The same people returned and told our wise man about how lucky he was. “It’s so good.” He replied once more, “Who knows. Maybe it’s good, maybe it’s bad.” As it happens, the next day his one and only son was attempting to break in one of the wild horses when the horse fell down and broke his leg. Once more everyone came to condole him. They said, “It’s so bad.” Again he replied, “”Who knows. Maybe it’s bad, maybe it’s good.”

    Three days passed and his poor son was limping around the village with his broken leg, when the emperor’s army entered the village announcing that a war was starting and they conscripted all the young men of the village. However, they left the son since he had a broken leg. Once more, everyone was so jealous of our man. They surrounded him talking about his shier luck. “It is so good for you,” they said. He answered all thus, “”Who knows. Maybe it’s good, maybe it’s bad.”


  501. 505Who Knows

    Give me a f*****g break.


  502. “Who knows” wrote (again): “If you want to Heal, stop putting salt on your wounds.”

    Who Knows,

    Just a suggestion… You might try telling us more specifically which wounds you are referring to. As the saying goes, move from the general to the specific.

    As Anna did above. As Dick Moron did above. As WhaleRider has done, and many others have done. They talk about wounds — specific wounds. Are you ready to do the same?

    If you’re suggesting that people here aren’t looking inward to see the cause of this mess, you’re barking up the wrong palm tree. People know. We allowed it to happen. We’re currently allowing to happen. For pete’s sake, we become the problem each and every day that we remain in denial.

    But you also need to open your eyes and look outward — toward the people who enable the problem, and encourage it, and for some unknown reason to us, are happy with it. That, too, is part of awakening. What do you see if you don’t (hmm) “divide your attention” between the world outside of you and the world inside. Both are needed… to see where the “blame” (your word) lies both within and all around you.

    The wounds are healing… have been healing for years. Just a bit faster right now.

    Beatiful poem. But I truly wish for you the ability to be that poem. Can you? Then listen, and feel what these friends of yours and mine are writing here.


  503. Oh, look, Who Knows is back!
    AND he learned how to use bold script… Now, Who Knows, can you make it in color, too?


  504. on August 7, 2007 at 1:44 am Laughing Love

    Hello.

    I don’t think anyone is “putting salt on their wounds.”

    I think most are putting salve on their wounds.

    LL


  505. Dream Catcher, 474:
    “I think Robert lost the magic. Lost the ability to create a higher state in others.”
    I have a feeling he didn’t just lose the magic. It appears that he is rapidly losing his mind as well… Just read his “thoughts” or listen to his crazy interpretations of various images – it kind of speaks for itself.

    There is a saying: “It’s better to remain silent and be though of as a fool, then to start talking and remove all doubt.”
    I think Robert was way better off if he just kept quiet and didn’t start “teaching” again… Now the more he “teaches” the more doubt is removed…
    Trust yourSelf, Dream Catcher. Best of luck to you.


  506. 505 Who Knows:

    My wounds are well healed. I like salt. I like to swim in the ocean.
    I also like to re-examine my past experiences with RB and FOF, now that I have removed the dark glasses. Maybe my observations and stories will help some other innocent beings from being wounded by the Robert Burton meat grinder.
    If this offends you, perhaps you are not really prepared to enter the Dharma gates you vow to penetrate.

    511 Janna:

    “It’s better to remain silent and be though of as a fool, then to start talking and remove all doubt.”

    I have always loved that quote. I think it was said by Mark Twain.

    Here’s another one that also applies to RB’s current “teachings”:

    “A man carried a monkey about for show, and because he was a little wiser than the monkey, grew vain, and conceived himself as much wiser than seven men” W. Blake

    I think the monkey on RB’s shoulder might be “Who Knows”.


  507. #486: Hi, Jack, good to meet you my name is Arthur.


  508. on August 7, 2007 at 3:02 am wake up little suzy wakeup

    Anna and David were both victims in the mismanagement and misdirection of a man calling himself conscious.


  509. #502, Graduates:

    Wow, looks like I hit a nerve. I wasn’t directing this at you, but the fact that you took it that way might give you pause.

    I’m sorry to see how disdainful you are of the average person. It’s one of the most pernicious aspects of the Fellowship of Friends that you claim to have dispensed with. I have seen ordinary people at their lowest (in hospitals both physical and psychiatric), and have managed to see some good coming forth from them.

    I honestly don’t see how you can talk about the gods helping the elect to self-remember in one post, then despise the bulk of humanity in the next. To me, that shows a major disconnect between the ideas and reality, and is one of the reasons I abandoned the 4th Way, as I felt it was feeding the worst aspects of myself — the parts that wanted to show how superior I was to others, the need to see “life” people as inferior. And mostly because I had become identified with the picture of someone waking up, instead of just trying to be more aware of my very ordinary life. If I have to choose between being a Budweiser guzzling idiot or someone who heaps derision on them from imaginary heights, I’ll be the idiot. But I don’t think it’s an either/or choice as you’ve made it out to be.

    And yes, in that particular quote Socrates sounds like a pompous ass. He reminded me of things people in the FOF used to say to stop us from inquiring into the truth behind Robert Burton’s behavior.

    The way you wrote that post sounded as if you were directing all that bile at me, and yes, it hurt. I think it’s that kind of attitude that makes people say of Robert Burton, if that’s what being conscious is all about, I don’t want it.


  510. I am back on line and still the fall of RB has not happened yet! How long will it take for this man to go down where he belongs to?

    In the meantime thank you all (almost) for the good stories and posts.


  511. on August 7, 2007 at 4:51 am Skeptical Optimist

    419 PatrickT

    Thanks for this wonderful quote, it gave me much to ponder. I’m curious why you included the second paragraph?

    JoelF


  512. Dear Graduates,
    With respect and no expectation that this might penetrate,
    you increasingly sound like the intolerant, indoctrinated bretheren.

    Love to you,
    Ryan


  513. Who Knows,
    Thought you were N–h–a—-s Sp———d———–g,
    didn’t realise you were the B-d-a of compassion.
    Sorry,
    No Really,
    conceptual error,
    it happens,
    you know Samsara and stuff?
    Ryan.


  514. Who Knows.
    Whatever happened to the Bhudda who had compassion for all beings? your compassion has become coma-passion.
    Jack


  515. Dear Dear Anna:

    Thank you for your story. It touched me deeply, as though I had been hit, too. I can only pray that you find peace. A leader of integrity and honor would have sent David away on the spot. No one deserves to be treated in that manner. That is not love. Love requires a balance of passion and restraint. Obviously, David failed you. May you inspire others to share their stories and be exalted in your suffering.

    Dear Jack S.:

    You have yourself to thank for your maturity and bravery to reveal yourself. I am not there yet. I am proud of you, bro!

    *****************

    Who Knows:

    OK, fine, have it your way.

    I vow to liberate you from the Fellowship of Friends.
    I vow to end your inexhaustible delusions.
    And while I’m at it…
    I vow to uproot Robert Burton’s endless passions, too.

    Yet, if healing myself means allowing the Earl to remain on his throne, then I make your blindness and ignorance the pillar of salt grinding away in my wounds! By all means keep right on posting! Your voice will fuel me.

    Although right now I happen to be carrying a fish…


  516. Innernaut (around) 515

    #502, Graduates:

    The way you wrote that post sounded as if you were directing all that bile at me, and yes, it hurt.

    ********************

    First off, I offer an unconditional apology. I’m like a bull in an emotional china shop most of the time.

    Now for the justification: I tried to be funny about it, but my god man, you were denigrating Socrates who was one of the most iconoclastic, independent spirits of all time. You don’t see what foolishness that is? The townspeople demanded his apology for a lack of inner considering and a disregard for their insistence on a social conformity to their corruption and under the pain of death he told them to go fuck themselves – and you call such a man an insufferable gasbag? I have to wonder about your sense of relativity.


  517. Good Morning ~

    456 ~ Cyclops ~ Hey ~ Nope, it did not start with ‘j’…
    _______________

    468 ~ Whalerider ~ Hello ~ The question concerning “Word!”…

    It’s an old school rapper ‘exclamation’; it’s used to demonstratively punctuate the ending of a rap or a sudden feeling that a certain situation one has ‘apparently’ just experienced or set out to be experienced by others is in some way rather tap-root-ish. It’s definitely not about having the last word, yet, it certainly could be seen as such… So are the esoteric ways of real old-school-language…
    _______________

    469 ~ Who Knows ~ Greetings ~ LOL… You just couldn’t help yourself, adding that “My dear…” (A little Robert Burton tattooing on Socrates inner thigh?)… Geez. Welp, at least we know who you ‘really’ have in mind and what you have of his in your ‘good ear’.
    _______________

    474 ~ Dream Catcher ~ Howdy ~

    You wrote ~

    “I think Robert lost the magic. Lost the ability to create a higher state in others.”

    Too, it could be that his ‘followers’ lost the ability to create a higher state in him for themselves to see their own affirmative reflections; if one really wishes to grow up, sooner or later you’ve got to stop covering the mirror with diamond-graffiti and just break it… Seven years of bad luck is better than no luck at all.
    _______________________

    492 ~ Ryan O’Poo ~ How ~

    Your welcome, thank you for your time spent sitting there with me, it’s a big park-bench, with Noah’s ark nestled inside an old peanut shell beneath a curious squirrel’s foot.
    _______________________

    497 ~ Innernaut ~ Sup ~

    You wrote ~ “More like a “Kali” type of god — one hand holding life, the other destruction.”

    Yes, you’re getting close to something; think ‘JINN’ and you’ll get even closer.
    _______________________

    Weirdness ~

    Very early yesterday morning I was writing about the train coming to Oregon House, posted it to the blog; as the sun was arriving, I looked outside and noticed that there was a very unusual ‘fog’ in the air, a cold front had moved in to the area (In August!) ~ Very strange… all day it was ‘smoggy’ here and there, large wafts of this ‘fog’ drifted around hither and thither… we now have October weather… Hummmm

    Weirdness Part 2 ~

    Asking again, Rumi, for a little message to the Fellowship of Friends, before entering the blog-realm tonight, I took Rumi’s book and turned to this page after asking.

    May this too blend with Whalerider and Anna’s stories; Rumi had his too concerning Shams.

    May it blend into current students… deeds, lovers, your deeds are greater than the time you spend covering yours to elaborate his.

    ‘Rumi, what would you like to say to the Fellowship of Friends today?’ I turned to this ~

    “THE CITY OF SABA

    There is a glut of wealth in the city of Saba. Everyone has more than enough. Even

    the bath stokers wear gold belts. Huge grape clusters hang down on every street and

    brush the faces of the citizens. No one has to do
    anything. You can balance

    a basket on your head and walk through an orchard, and it
    will fill by itself with

    overripe fruit dropping into it. Stray dogs stray in
    lanes full of thrown-out

    scraps with barely a notice. The lean desert wolf gets
    indigestion from the rich

    food. Everyone is fat and satiated with all the
    extra. There are no

    robbers. There is no energy for crime, or for gratitude,
    and no one wonders about

    the unseen world. The people of Saba feel bored with
    just the mention of prophecy.

    They have no desire of any kind. Maybe some idle curiosity
    about miracles, but that’s

    it. This overrichness is a subtle disease. Those
    who have it are blind

    to what’s wrong and deaf to anyone who points it out.
    The city of Saba cannot be

    understood from within itself! But there is a cure, an
    individual medicine, not

    a social remedy: sit quietly, and listen for a voice
    within that will say, Be

    more silent. As that happens, your soul starts to revive.
    Give up talking and

    your positions of power. Give up the excessive money.
    Turn towards teachers and

    prophets who don’t live in Saba. They can help you
    grow sweet again and fragrant

    and wild and fresh and thankful for any small event.”

    Rumi

    _________________________________________

    l.t.y.a.


  518. #522, Graduates.

    Apology accepted, unconditionally.

    I didn’t say the sum of Socrates’ life was one of unsufferable gasbag-ness, I said in that one quote he sounded that way, and I stand by it. He sounded like good old Bob trying to stop people from gossiping — ie, speaking the truth — about him. Personally, and this is just me, I try not to worship at the altar of all things old, and revere them simply for surviving through the centuries or having statues erected to them. To me, that is anti-intellectual, because it doesn’t require any thought. Robert Burton is a perfect example of that kind of thinking, or lack thereof. BTW, I think some statues of Caligula still exist, for what that’s worth.

    However, I see your point, and I did study Socrates/Plato in college and respect his principled life and most of what I’ve read. But that particular quote struck me as BS, and I see no reason not to call it like I see it. Maybe he was having an off day. Even the most iconoclastic, independent spirits have them.

    Goodnight, friend.


  519. Humanity is a well designed thing by God. To me it feels like his playground to experiment. 99.999999999999 percent of people on earth live a mechancial and sleepfull life; not realizing there is something higher outside or inside higher that they can touch themselves. I don’t judge this and see this is myself at all the time and it makes me depressed.

    With no justice on earth and the law of accident (if you believe in this) then the earth becomes a more miserable place. Only something “Real” gets me through this life. Third states are real, honest observations are real, essence moments are real.

    We are programmed from early age to who we will like, or not like, programed of how we will comb our hair and put our socks on. Programmed what to listen to or what to read. Programed what negative emotion to express. Programmed by the movies we watch. We are so Programmed and mechanical it is pathetic! Crazy people see this sometimes, but have little Will. Although many would feel the School in question is contributing to the programming, I would say it is deprograming.

    Honestly, I do try to understand the people who feel that they have been misprogrammed or mistreated in the School. I think on this blog it would help if there was relativity on both sides; for I have not heard the postive things that many former students who where in the school for so long got. And I know for a fact there are hundreds of experiences that I have been told by current students who are now former students. It is easy to forget about the positive moments.

    My valuation for the school and Robert is steadfast and unshakeable at this moment; although I don’t perfectly agree with everthing – this is fine, who am I anyway! I am not in a democratic organization, I am in a dictorship to put it harshly and I accept it; for I know my chances for awakening are better — for me anyway; maybe not for Janna, or for someone else, but “to each their own”.

    This blog, sincerely has helped me to see alot of the “good students”, “non thinking students”, “bullshitting students”, and when I see it I am going to call it or walk away from it. But this is only a part of the whole and it is a law not to judge the sum by its parts. Like when Bruce starts saying F..K..G, it is only a part of the whole blog, there are many other nice and meaningfull stories.

    On the other hand, after reading the blog I just am easily able to turn the light the other way on the non thinking bull shitting former students.

    With the risk of siding with Who Knows, I did like the story about the monk and the fish and there is an element that is similar to this blog in that story. It would be incredible to see if there could be compassion, acceptance and understanding for both sides. I do not see this in sight but it will be beautiful if does happen.

    My best to everyone, may you trully find what makes you happy.


  520. Who knows ~

    Yes, who knows, maybe this is what you were really trying to tell the current members and ex-members of Robert Burton’s Fellowship of Friends, who knows?
    _______________________________

    And a nice story for the end of the hay-stack of pins.

    ” Who knows:

    Many moon phases ago a wiseacreer lived in Oregon House. He had a Russian ‘boy’ who was the gleam in his eyes and a white buttocks which was his favorite belonging.

    One day his ‘boy’ escaped from his academy grounds and disappeared into the foothills outside the town. The fellowship members came to him one by one and announced their transformation of his suffering. They said, “You are such an unlucky man. It is so good; now you can transform.” The teacher answered, “You know. Maybe it’s C-Influence, maybe it’s C-Influence.”

    The fellow students left. The next day the ‘boy’ returned followed by twelve more wild ‘boys’. The same students returned and told our wiseacreer about how lucky he was. “It’s so good.” He replied once more, “You know. Maybe it’s C-Influence, maybe it’s C-Influence.” As it happens, the next day his one and only ‘favorite’ was attempting to break in one of the wild ‘boys’ when the ‘favorite’ fell down and broke his leg. Once more everyone came to congratulate the teacher. They said, “It’s so good.” Again he replied, “”You know. Maybe it’s C-Influence, maybe it’s C-Influence.”

    Three meteor showers passed and his poor ‘favorite’ was limping around the academy with his broken leg, when George Bush’s army entered Oregon House announcing that a war was starting and they conscripted all the young ‘boys’ of the academy. However, they left the ‘favorite’ since he had a broken leg. Once more, everyone was so jealous of our man’s possibility at transforming so much suffering. They surrounded him talking about his shear luck. “It is so good for you,” they said. He answered all thus, “”You know. Maybe it’s C-Influence, maybe it’s C-Influence.”

    ________________________

    Word!


  521. Fat Boy ~

    “99.999999999999 of people…”

    _________________________

    You are so Robert Burton!

    and so is he.


  522. Yo Graduates (522): You’re not Socrates. Socrates can take care of himself. You can, too–but here, I’ll give you a suggestion.

    Being awake is an emotional experience. “Higher emotional,” if you like, but…whatever. If you are not kind, you are only imagining you are awake. If you feel the emotional effect of your post before you hit “submit,” you will learn more than everything you are trying to teach.


  523. on August 7, 2007 at 8:13 am Bass Ackwards

    464 Rhino Neal
    474 Dick Moron

    Both of you (politely) disagreed with this statement below from my former post, basically calling it wishful thinking (thus an aspect of imagination):

    “That he has higher energies functioning seems clear. If he was just some Joe spouting off a bunch of knowledge to a bunch of seekers, there would have been no School, no magic, no Fellowship of Friends, no Renaissance/Apollo/Isis, no counteracting blog, no nothing.”

    I am not interested in getting into opposite “I’s” about it all, what interests me is understanding. Perhaps it would have been better to simply have used the term “crystallized” rather than “higher”? My guess, given my experience of Robert Burton is that he is some kind of crystallized being. I do and have experienced higher states from being around his person, even at times when I had no “I’s” or beliefs about him, and after already having had the “cult deprogramming” experience. To my thinking that is why this is such a tough nut to crack.

    I’m not sure what happened to him, whether he simply crystallized incorrectly or crystallized doubly (which is a kind of incorrect crystallization), but he does seem (to my experience) consistently to emanate some kind of “higher energies”, or rather some kind of crystallization. My own understanding or definition of how a Conscious Being should think and act has changed, thankfully, as I no longer base it upon RB, but instead upon someone like Nisargadatta. N. was clearly someone who did not act according to the expectations of others (like Robert), but he would never bring harm (as Robert does). Deeply understanding the double nature of RB helps to explain many things to me, both the goodness and the badness of the Fellowship of Friends. And both are on a different level than that what I had previously experienced in my life outside of “the School”.

    From Ouspensky:
    “Self-remembering cannot produce wrong results provided the connection is kept between it and other ideas of the system, but if one omits one thing and takes another thing from the system — for instance, if one seriously works on self-remembering without knowing about the idea of division of ‘I’s, so that one takes oneself as one (as a unity), from the beginning — then self-remembering will give wrong results and may even produce wrong crystallization and make development impossible. There are schools for instance or systems which, although they do not formulate it in this way, are actually based on false personality and on struggle against conscience. Such work must certainly produce wrong results. First it will create a kind of strength, but it will make the development of higher consciousness an impossibility. False personality either destroys or distorts memory.”

    From Gurdjieff:
    “One of the first things about a ‘Hasnamuss’ is that he never hesitates to sacrifice people or to create an enormous amount of suffering, just for his own personal ambitions. How a ‘Hasnamuss’ is created is another question. It begins with formatory thinking, with being a tramp and a lunatic at the same time. Another definition of a ‘Hasnamuss’ is that he is crystallized in the wrong hydrogens.”

    In our prospective student meetings, we speak of Unity, Consciousness, and Will. It seems to me that Robert Burton has Consciousness and Will but is not Unified rather he is Doublified.

    Love,
    Bass


  524. Unoanimo,

    Does not somthing else more thoughtful come to you to write in 527. It is hard enough for people to express themselves why make it harder? By the way do you have a real name, I know your lunar?


  525. Fat Boy,
    “I am in a dictorship to put it harshly and I accept it”
    Yes, you’re in the, “Dicktorship of Friends”.
    Help me Freud,
    Please.
    Ryan.


  526. on August 7, 2007 at 8:28 am BRAINWASHED?

    Love and fear may not be enough, however; so guilt must be used, too. Fill them with so much guilt that they will want to police their own thoughts. Remind them that they are nothing alone, but with you and God (or some Power or Technique) they are Everything. Fill them with contempt for themselves, so that they will want to be egoless, selfless, One with You and Yours. You not only strip them of any sense of self, you convince them that the ideal is be without a self.

    Keep up the pressure. Be relentless. Humiliate them from time to time. Soon they will consider it their duty to humiliate themselves. Control what they read, hear, see. Repeat the messages for eyes and ears. Gradually get them to make commitments, small ones at first, then work your way up until you own their property, their bodies, their souls. And don’t forget to give them drugs, starve them, or have them meditate or dance or chant for hours at a time until they think they’ve had some sort of mystical experience.

    Make them think, “It was you, Lord, who made me feel so good.” They won’t want to give it up. They have never felt so good. Though they look as if they are in Hell to those of us on the outside, from the inside it looks like Heaven.

    What religion doesn’t use guilt and fear to get people to police their own thoughts? Even some therapists use similar methods to control their patients. They prey on the vulnerable. They demand total loyalty and trust as a price for hope and healing. They often isolate their prey from loved ones and friends. They try to own and control their clients. The methods of recruiters are not much different. Are the recruits, the converts to the faith, and the patients willing victims? How would we tell the difference between a willing victim and an unwilling victim? If we cannot do that, then we can’t distinguish any true cases of mind control.

    Recruiters and other manipulators are not using mind control unless they are depriving their victims of their free will. A person can be said to be deprived of his free will by another only if that other has introduced a causal agent which is irresistible. How could we ever demonstrate that a person’s behavior is the result of irresistible commands given by a religious, spiritual, or personal growth leader? It is not enough to say that irrational behavior proves a person’s free will has been taken from them. It may be irrational to give away all one’s property, or to devote all one’s time and powers to satisfying the desires of one’s divine leader, or to commit suicide or plant poison bombs in subways because ordered to do so, but how can we justify claiming such irrational acts are the acts of mindless robots? For all we know, the most bizarre, inhumane, and irrational acts done by the recruits are done freely, knowingly and joyfully. Perhaps they are done by brain damaged or insane people. In either case, such people would not be victims of mind control.


  527. # 451 Bass Ackwards
    “a Teacher of Consciousness can and should have carte blanche to destroy Personality but not Essence. Essence is what we grow from, it contains the seed of all higher possibilities in man..”

    Thanks for that.
    No one would discuss the methods of a teacher , if one would reach the aim one was looking for.
    But if the aim is not reached on a long scale factor, one has to check if the acceptable limit beetween essence and personnality has not been trespassed.
    This is a main point to set the limits of the power of a teacher.
    Once again, common sense.

    Aline


  528. Hello Anna,

    “If God exists, I hope he has a good excuse” Woody Allen

    Much love.

    Aline


  529. Ryan 531, are you housemates with Unoanimo or did you graduate from the same Special Needs School.

    Come on! Are you teenagers! Time to grow up!

    If you want to have a conversation then lets do that otherwise take your you know what and eat it and be silent.


  530. on August 7, 2007 at 8:41 am Crouching Tiger

    To Anna 472 and Cyclops 475.

    Your heartfelt stories reminded me of a saying of the Buddha:

    “If someone commits an injustice against us, we forgive them because it is in our own interests to so. But that does not mean that we will allow the injustice to occur again.”


  531. on August 7, 2007 at 8:44 am Crouching Tiger

    To Anna 472 and Cyclops 475:

    Your heartfelt stories reminded me of a saying of the Buddha:

    “If someone commits an injustice against us, we forgive them because it is in our own interests to do so. But that does not mean that we will allow the injustice to occur again.”


  532. Fatboy,
    Yep, me and Uno are housemates and we met in prison actually. Both served time for wizzin’ up cats’ arses, something we learned from RB. “The cat has nine lives so whizz away dear”
    If you want a conversation perhaps you could stop pretending to be Mother Theresa with a doubt “I” ?

    Just a thought,
    No pressure,
    Ryan.


  533. Who Knows, Part 2 (Scale & Relativity 101)

    Here goes, a little closer to home than Zheng Dao…

    This ju ju session is dedicated to conscience and the bigger picture than the ‘little me’…
    _________________

    May the heavens invoke the power of reverse magnetism and assist thusly to get this sheet straight with these who-knows-poetics and start answering some questions.
    ______________________________________________

    BTW, ‘Who Knows’, perhaps it was sub-conscious, yet, we’ve gotta eventually be responsible for that too, that you wrote this ‘after’ Anna’s post… I find it very Burton of you, Who Knows, it’s just his style to characterize the soul’s predicaments as ‘material for transformation’, as he shows his method of ‘transformation’ is to ignore, pigeon hole and console the abusers with abuse.
    __________________________________

    The Robert, The Man #7 and the boy

    (A Self-Deluding prophecy)
    by Viagra Darvon,

    A solitary Robert was carrying a large boy to his home to prepare it for his meal. As he walked along The Path, a Man #7 approached from the other direction.

    As he reached hailing distance, the Man #7 called out “Robert! I see you coming! (Ahem) What is that you are carrying?”

    Not wishing to shout in the quietude of the potage brunch, Robert thought: “I will answer this Man #4’s question when I am close enough that a True Personality answer will not be unnecessary suffering.”

    As the first and second forces approached one another closely, Robert opened his mouth to key but he was negatively photogrpahed by another ‘Work-I’ from the other Man #7.

    “Why did you not consider me, Robert?” The Man #7 did not inner consider, “Do you think I am unworthy of your ladder and being? What kind of Idiot would go about carrying a boy, anyway?!!”

    Robert again attempted to respond: “Why, sir,I….”

    To which the Man #7 expressed negativity: “Sir??? Why do you call me sir with such False Personality? Never in all my teaching trips have I met a feminine dominated man carrying a naive solar boy. What do you ‘aim’ ‘TO DO’ next lifetime? Whack me with that boy?”

    Robert, taken rather to inner considering by the unexpected True Personality, grasped the boy more tightly lest it slip from his grasp and into the dirt.

    “Ah Ha!” Cried the Man #7. “I see you gripping that boy more tightly at the tail. I now objectively acknowledge and with no opposite I’s, that you aim to whack me with that boy!”

    “Good Householder,” replied Robert, “why would I ever whack you with a boy?”

    “A mercurial question!!!” exclaimed the Man #7. “I have photographed this before. You will ask, and then (no matter what the ‘I’!) will just haul off and whack me. You cannot buffer me you Man #4.”

    “Do you wish to be whacked with the boy?” Robert asked.

    “I know your body-type, false personality,” the man #7 answered. “You are no Man #7! You are a high Man #4 who would whack me with the boy to ‘shock’ me and then steal my conscience while I was changing my level of being in imagination.”

    “I do not objectively verify why I should do so,” Robert then keyed, “but if your aim is to be whacked with a boy, I am with real positive emotion, happy to do so, for your Permanent Tendency to Awaken.”

    “Ah Ha!” The Man #7 photographed again. “There we have the ‘key’! It was your inner considering all along TO DO nothing but intentionally insincerely drag me into a ‘play of features’ and then whack me with that boy!”

    “Good Householder-Man #4,” Robert tried to key, “I am on my way home to prepare my meal. We must be finished with this keying, as the smell of the boy has attracted another Man #7, who would have a taste of us along with the boy!”

    By this time several other Men #4’s and Men #4’s of Robert’s had gathered beside The Path and were intentionally doing the listening exercise with the odd keying, scratching their heads and inner considering at the Man #7 with the strange fourth state about being whacked with a boy. None of them noticed the other Man #7 that Robert had seen moving toward them through the rose bushes.

    “And so we observe more Intentional Insincerity!” said the man #7, photographing to the crowd as he stepped squarely in front of Robert. “I see no Man #7. And everyone knows that Robert is not allowed to eat boy. More proof that you are a Man #4 dressed as a Man #7!!!”

    “Hear me well, Men #7’s,” the man #7 shouted as he blocked Robert from moving forward on The Path, “this man #7 is a Man #4 whose only intentional aim is to whack me with that boy!”

    At which point in the octave, Robert said humbly “As you are in imagination” and smacked the man #7 squarely with the boy, knocking him out of the middle of The Path. As Robert walked past and on toward home to make his meal, he could hear the Man #4 regaling the group who stood laughing, ‘externally considering’ at the roadside.

    “You key! You key!” the man #7 shouted. “What sort of Man #7 would go about whacking people with a boy? A Man #4, I tell you!! A Man #3, a Man #2 and a Man #1!”

    The other Man #7, deprived of his dinner of Robert, Man #7 and boy, inner considered off into deep imagination.

    The Beginning of The End

    ___________________________

    ;’)


  534. Thanks Ryan,

    I appreciate your comment, but sorry I am doing the best I can to be true to myself and expressing my thoughts as I see it. But, let’s break down the buffers on both sides? Don’t you agree?


  535. Fat Boy ~

    You wrote ~

    “Does not something else more thoughtful come to you to write in 527. It is hard enough for people to express themselves why make it harder? By the way do you have a real name, I know your lunar?”
    ________________________

    No, Fat Boy, I am no more lunar than you are jovial for being ‘fat’… I am a being, like you, whose walking around inside this luggage called ‘human’…

    And, firstly, ask yourself the questions you asked me, then please ask me again (after) you dealt with your answers to your own questions… The questions you asked me are initially for your half-azzed portrait of the Fellowship of Friends and your sexual pradator teacher Robert Burton.

    BTW, where’s your real name?

    Or are you protecting yourself from those two ‘Robert boys’ who like to camo-up, grab their high powered rifles and go killing deer in August amongst the roses and grapes?

    Wine and Roses?

    Dear-blood and roses more like it (and yes I meant to spell deer, dear, Dear.)

    Fat Boy, try to be sincere, do you really think it’s our hobby to sit in here, nearly 8000 posts later and just chew the cud? You’ve willy nilly parachuted into a jungle and you’re still caught in the tree; you can either sincerely yell for assistance, risk the head hunter’s on a bad day, or use the machete your mother gave you and cut yourself down; hey, what’s a broken leg, after all, Who Knows, you might attract a Real Shaman.

    Geez!


  536. Hey Pyan O’Poo ~

    You’re mixing me up with my evil twin Unoanima, you guys were in another cell block, I was in solitary confinement and prior, had no cats or dogs or frogs or various live stock animals people sheer and eat.

    Honest mistake on your part; it’s cool.

    :.)


  537. I asked you first.

    But in any case, the deer thing is way off, I hope that helps things, I mean that honestly.

    Good analogy about the paracute but after seeing Bourne Ultimatum, I feel like Jason Bourne, imagination of course. I am king of clubs.

    And I am not fat, I am mecury my friend and solar. For some reason my when I was two I was chubby so my father nick named me fat boy, and it stayed with me even when I was an athlete. With the blog we make these, me also, judements of the what the people are like by names, but it can be very far from the truth.


  538. on August 7, 2007 at 1:25 pm Brain Police

    “Transference is a term first used by Sigmund Freud to describe a process in analysis or therapy. Freud noted that many of his patients seemed at some point to begin to place certain feelings, like romantic love or parental love, onto the therapist. When this process occurred the therapist could use this position to help restore the client to more normal feelings by responding in ways unlike that of the person upon which the original feelings were based.

    For example, a child who has been severely abused by a parent, or even simply neglected, may express transference by viewing the therapist as parent. However, because the child expects this role to be negatively charged and harmful, recovery of abuse may be possible when the therapist is neither abusive nor neglectful. Instead the therapist uses this transference to provide what the parent did not provide, a stable and accepting relationship in which the client is very important.

    The therapist as parent in this type of transference may have to endure some pretty strong anger from the patient. This is in part helpful because it allows the child to express feelings that were too dangerous to express in an abusive or neglectful setting. Once these feelings of anger and grief are expressed, the patient often feels a relief, as if he or she had actually confronted his own parents.

    Most commonly, transference is of a romantic nature. This does not have to be limited to relationships between client and therapists of different sexes. It is also not an indication of homosexuality, although a client with a same sex therapist may be terribly confused regarding romantic feelings toward one of the same sex.

    In these cases, however, the therapist simply represents the people in the client’s life who should love him or her. The role of lover is projected onto the therapist because the therapist is usually the only person in a client’s life who is completely invested in the client, and views the client without judgment or agenda.

    It can be quite difficult to discuss feelings of a romantic nature with a therapist. However, the therapist is usually aware of such feelings whether or not they are discussed. Discussion can prove to be healing and helpful, and ultimately move the client out of the transference state into a place where such feelings might be relocated back to a spouse or partner.

    There is some inherent danger in transference to both client and therapist. Some therapists may transfer their own feelings onto a client. Where romantic feelings for a therapist are involved, the client would generally do anything a therapist asks, including any sexual behavior. This is strictly illegal, but there are abuses of laws protecting clients. Similar laws apply to others who might be subject to transference, such as members of the clergy, teachers and those in other medical fields.

    It is important to recognize transference as a normal stage of therapy. However, if a therapist appears to reciprocate romantic feelings, engage in touching of a sexual nature or attempt to initiate a sexual relationship, this therapist is no longer of help and should be reported as in violation of the many laws guarding against such. In this case, the therapist does considerable harm to patients.

    In most cases, however, the therapist, or advisor of any nature is fully apprised of laws and honors them. The therapist can use the transference stage of therapy to help a patient establish a more appropriate view of significant relationships with romantic partners or family members. The client should not feel guilty for having these feelings, though they are often confusing and difficult. Particularly when one is married they may seem unfaithful or go against marriage vows.

    It helps to remember that these feelings are those one has or wishes to have with a spouse or partner. Such feelings have undergone a temporary relocation that can ultimately benefit romantic relationships. Discussion of these feelings may be highly embarrassing, but may also be a tool for reaching an excellent state of mental health in regard to relationships with significant people in one’s life.”


  539. Fat Boy ~

    You wrote ~

    “For some reason my when I was two I was chubby…”

    Yes, Fat Boy, most of us were chubby at 2 years… LOL

    Hey, and don’t go playing that ‘I asked you first’ game;
    I stopped doing that around 3rd or 4th grade and see no reason to break any records here…

    Take a peek at Post 166/11 and wiseacre yourself out of that one…

    Fat Boy, I like you, I like allot of people I don’t know, hey, I ‘have’ solar too, yet, look, one, I don’t believe in labeling your Essence (actions maybe) with it’s luggage-names; you’re not a mercury, or a solar, or the king of clubs;

    find me proof that you are the origin of the king of clubs and we can start thinking on the rebirth of the X-Files and a Hollywood deal…

    Fat Boy, like Howard Carter, Siddiq, Golb, WHo Knows and so many others I have attempted to have a sorta ‘truer scale & relativity rounded conversation’ (not redundant) with, you call the Fellowship of Friends a ‘bright planet’, yet not from the point of view of it’s dark side too,

    you won’t (it’s not a matter of can’t or is it?) go there and apparently have not been there, I have traveled it (and others) for so long and truly can’t pretend to hold a conversation with someone who simply tries playing basketball with half a ball… So, well, you gotta ask yourself, do you feel lucky, plump?

    If the answer is ‘yes’… then maybe you are Jason Bourne, grab some more popcorn (with extra butter), open up Robert Burton’s front bedroom window curtains around 7:30 AM, take a seat and watch the show…

    I truly desire to share with you where I am with all this in context to YOU, yet, the ‘little you’ (my opinion) is choosing ‘Collusion, Connivance and Deliberate Indifference’,

    I have dealt with you entities before (and that’s not an insult), so don’t go thinking I am pissing in the wind here;

    can you honor yourself with a ‘real’ stance in here or not?

    Otherwise you are insulting the possibilities of your soul constantly, by taking a very ‘privileged paper towel roll look’ at all this very peripheral matter… WAKE UP AND SMELL THE VIAGRA DUST.
    _____________________________________________

    l.t.y.a.


  540. on August 7, 2007 at 3:07 pm wake up little suzy wakeup

    I think the psychological harm done by Robert, either consciously or unconsciously, to some of his students is pretty well described by #544 brain police. His role complicates and confuses the lives of many of his students, which can last for years in the school, as well as years out of the school.

    Upon leaving, one is left to pick up the pieces of one’s life and move on for better or for worse. I certainly felt anger when I left but also a sense of freedom. Freedom of choice was a big one.

    In the early 80’s I was misguided to continue an abusive relationship with my husband because Robert said it was an ‘essence’ relationship. I went back to my husband hating him (because that’s what Robert asked of me).
    It was destined to fail. What my husband needed was therapy. He had a pretty bad case of post traumatic stress. I recognized this in him but at the time he was unwilling and not interested in receiving the help he needed. I knew at the time he was taking his anger out on me because of his pain from the past.

    I remember someone in the inner circle saying ‘We’re not here to be therapists’. We are here to become conscious’.

    Had my former husband received the help he needed at the time perhaps our marriage wouldn’t have failed. And I believe with the right guidance from Robert he would have gone to get therapy. Robert was in a position to show him the way but did not. Instead our marriage dragged on for a few more months with a little more abuse.

    Come on people, do you really think this man directs his students to the path of enlightenment? Do you think that you are receiving healthy guidance from your teacher?

    Or like many students would you say ‘it’s not Robert’s job or the Fellowship’s job to make decisions like that. We are adults.’ Tough love maybe?

    I don’t deny I was a naive girl at the time I went back to my husband upon Robert’s request. If this man is supposedly conscious maybe it would be good to ask oneself what happened to his conscience? Would a great man in a position of power throw the lamb to the wolves? How does your conscience feel when you see this happening to others in the school? Do you sit back and somehow justify his behavior by stating it’s not our job in the Fellowship to help one another? By continual non-action and by stuffing ones feelings sociopathic tendencies emerge. And that is the greatest harm Robert has done to his students. He has taught by example and this is the result.

    My advice to each and every student in the Fellowship is to leave as fast as you can.


  541. Hi Bass Ackwards 529.

    Kinda makes sense what you’re saying, but I don’t buy it myself. These days it’s clear that almost all of what G and O said was just more confusing conceptualising nonsense, with a couple of truths thrown in in such a way as to be very difficult to isolate. There’s really no such things as crysallisation, hasnamussification and the like, all just mental concepts pointing in completely the wrong direction.

    If one can let go of all the G/O programming we acquired over the years, look around and see what’s actually happening, both inside and outside, a lot of things become much clearer. One is that Robert Burton is an ordinary man, no special powers or abilities, mildly charismatic, who when he started “teaching” his half baked Fourth Way ideas realised that this was his meal and sex ticket and rode with it.

    We all believed he was a “conscious being” because we wanted to. In a sense we all hynotised ourselves and each other. It’s not easy to admit we made such a huge “mistake”. I consider myself reasonably intelligent – how could I have fallen for this? Well the fact is, I did fall for it, and now I’m out of it, thank the Lord!

    Cheers, RN


  542. Dear Bass,
    Just couple thought on emanating of higher energies, and you experiencing high state around RB.
    You said:
    “I do and have experienced higher states from being around his person, even at times when I had no “I’s” or beliefs about him, and after already having had the “cult deprogramming” experience. To my thinking that is why this is such a tough nut to crack. …he does seem (to my experience) consistently to emanate some kind of “higher energies”

    I certainly have experienced high states around Robert too, and had very similar thoughts about it. I thought it was because he was a special higher being, just like most students thought. My high states around him were my own “proof” that he is a higher being.
    But then to my surprise I noticed that I tend to experience high states around other “important” people. Whenever there is a certain anticipation, awe, admiration projected by others – I somehow start feeling the same, and inevitably get a high state. (And I am mot even a “Passive type”!)
    And so I thought – may be higher state happens not because of the person and his “higher being”, but because of my view of him??? And may be my view is actually being shaped by the crowd???

    I recall having a very high state at the concert of Paul McCartney… Huge crowd was anticipating his appearance, all the eyes were glued to the stage, the tension was almost palpable… and here he comes – a legend, a “Beatle”! Man did I experience a high state. Prolonged, too!
    I also went to couple satsangs with some very respected teachers. Again, a large group of people, silence, concentrated attention – all eyes are glued to one person. Awe and admiration is in the air – and here comes my prolonged high state…

    How much can you bet that sincere supporters of G. Bush get high state when they are near him! Do you think it is because of Bush “emanating” something? Or may be it’s their own picture of him as someone very special that makes them experience him like this and feel high?

    Many times I passed next to Robert without noticing him and had no high state at all. I guess, his emanations mysteriously avoided me… But as soon as someone points at him (look – there is Robert!) and your eyes see him and other students in their admiration – here comes the high state.
    Strange, isn’t it? So it made me think about it.

    Someone said here a while ago, that Robert is nothing without his followers, that his “powers” are only his student’s projections.
    Now I wonder if you place him around other people who don’t know him (lets say spiritual seekers, not regular asleep folk). Will they get his emanations and get the state? I think most likely they will consider him a crazy self-inflated old man and will walk away.
    Just like you would if you look at Da Free John (Adi Da). Since you don’t share his devotee’s view of him – all you may see is some insane old fart vainly posing as God…

    Take a look:

    Feel his divine emanations? Well, his followers do.


  543. Nisargadatta on Robert Burton’s Theory Of Lifetimes, C Influence, etc.:

    Q: Surely you must believe in having lived before?

    N: Reincarnation impies a reincarnating self. There is no such thing! The bundle of memories and hopes called the “I” imagines itself existing everlastingly, and creates time to accomodate it’s false eternity: I need no past or future to Be! All experience is born of imagination; I do not imagine, so no birth or death happens to me. Only those who think themselves born can think themselves reborn. You are accusing me of having being born – I plead not guilty!


  544. Dear Bass and Fat Boy:

    I advise you both to make whatever effort you can to produce the state you feel around Robert Burton independently of him as soon as you can.

    I’d like to warn you once more of two issues that are obstacles to your spiritual virtuosity:

    Firstly, part of our sleep and what makes you a ‘follower’ instead of a student is the unconscious desire to please an authority figure. It is our human nature, and you will be subject to this law as long as you remain in the group. We all do this unconsciously, and Robert Burton takes advantage of it to the fullest degree to satisfy his own perversions and greed. He has surrounded himself under false pretenses with a vast pool of willing participants. I pray you realize that makes you totally dispensable. There are hundreds of others behind you waiting in line waiting for the chance to make Big Daddy happy. The post above on transference was aptly timed. Transference is not an illusion; it is your shadow which you can only see in the light, not in the dark of your present situation.

    Secondly, in the Fellowship of Friends, there is no objective means of assessing your evolution, no group of qualified elders to test you to determine that you have attained any degree of success in your work. In the Fellowship of Friends, that power is concentrated in one person alone, Robert Burton. He determines who is at what level of being or number of lifetimes. He ‘bestows’ the title of man number 5, not based upon your efforts or being, but upon how you serve his subjective aims. This leaves you in a state of dependence, requiring you to seek validation of your being only from him…and subjected to his insane interpretation of his deluded, misapplied ideas of reference and magical thinking.

    Is that what you signed up for, spiritual dependence? Remember, as above, so below…in our solar system, in this particular Ray of Creation there is only one sun, and one planet imitating the sun. It is the same with the Fellowship of Friends. Yet, “in my Father’s house there are many mansions.” The universe is infinite! You have been given the power, knowledge, and the right to be your own sun, your own mansion. Do you not recognize your own divinity within you? You must protect and nurture it or it will be stolen from you.


  545. Bass A.,

    I spotted this fragment in your writing. You indicated that you have

    “already [] had the “cult deprogramming” experience”

    Truly, I am not sure what you mean by this.

    To be clear, I see you through your writings as a deeply questioning person. But I also see you, again through your writings, as one constrained by a loaded language and a long history of involvement in the FOF thought reform environment.

    Clearly, though, you had some experience which you label as “cult deprogramming.” Can you tell us what you mean?


  546. Trivial matters for fat boy:

    Humanity is a well designed thing by God. To me it feels like his playground to experiment. 99.999999999999 percent of people on earth live a mechancial and sleepfull life

    If your intent to indicate that only 1950 or so of the world population do not live a “mechanical and sl