This is the twentieth-second rebirth of the Fellowship of Friends Discussion. Enjoy your stay here and try to be at least vaguely civil and polite. And as always, have fun.
For previous parts of the discussion click on home and scroll away to find parts 10 – 20. For the oldest part of the discussion check out Animam Recro.
Purchasing awakening
He was counting poops, cocks and breasts, and now he’s into feet:
“The woman above the vase shows five toes on one foot and three toes on the other. Renaissance artists often did this rather than show four toes on each foot. It signifies the nine of hearts engaging the inhalation and exhalation of the four wordless breaths.”
“The five toes of the man’s inner right foot are facing us, while the big toe on his left foot, representing long BE, is outside of time.”
“Washing the feet” means purifying the nine of hearts of imagination.”
************
Burton is hardly more delusional now than he was right from the beginning, the nutty crap he is “teaching” now is consistently symptomatic of someone exhibiting psychosis. From one of his first meetings in 1970:
Burton: This group will produce three angels, and they will be burned on the cross and will survive.
Q. The others are the chaff?
Burton: They move to another role, if we take Jesus’ words, “Every hair is counted.” Remember, those three I spoke of will be literally and worse burned on the cross.
All of us at one time paid money for it and those still there in the FoF are now paying for the delusional obsessions of a creature with a broken brain. If it weren’t for the uncomprehendingly destructive effects of Burton’s criminal sexual predation it would be pathetically comical that so many otherwise intelligent people belonged to this “conscious teaching” owned and operated by what almost anyone in *life* would recognize as a compete lunatic. I remember conspiratorially informing a close *life* friend of the impending “worldwide depression” that was about to befall humanity back in about 1982, my friend listened to the entire stupid tale and casually informed me that I was in a cult run by a nut. I remember the feeling I had of a knowing superiority and experiencing a little sadness that my friend was not going to “get it.” I went on “remembering myself” with the expectation that the grand scheme of C influence was going to play out just as “The Teacher” predicted. Now you have 1500 people counting toes on old paintings and imagining that they are “present” in short and long BE. People are sleeping machines, so much so that they will believe the delusions of a madman and feel certain that they are hearing the truth.
Thanks to you sheik and fellowbloggers.
“It’s only the giving that makes you what you are…”
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=dRY6fw2diP0
wondering allowed…
Wond’ring aloud —
how we feel today.
Last night sipped the sunset —
my hands in her hair.
We are our own saviours
as we start both our hearts beating life
into each other.
Wond’ring aloud —
will the years treat us well.
As she floats in the kitchen,
I’m tasting the smell
of toast as the butter runs.
Then she comes, spilling crumbs on the bed
and I shake my head.
And it’s only the giving
that makes you what you are.
p. 21, 609 practical former member 1978- 1985
I’ve read less than 5%of this blog. Nevertheless, I will contribute my two cents. I am ready to help bring justice to the FOF. I believe RB is a criminal element. If someone has a strategy to bring him to justice, then let’s do it. Who is in? If all that can be done is continue this cycle of rants, then so be it; there is value in that.
—————————–
A conversation very much like this happened at my house last night.
In case my last post seemed overly “sweet”
vinnie the fish, this one’s for you bud —
“so hard to get through to you…”
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=YUCNsZXCd58
571 Whalerider
574 observer
I resonated to both your post’s. Robert has an uncanny ability to cultivate essence and then brutishly abuse it. There is no more powerful healing agent than truth. We cannot move forward without acceptance of the past. Observer my own experience with Robert was very similar. It only occurred once, I was stunned into an almost helpless state. I also refused to have sex with him again and the invitations, and gifts stopped. It took me some 3 years to leave the Fellowship. I never said anything to anyone about the incident . Even years later it took a long time to speak about it with my therapist and that was only after reading the blog and discovering that I was not alone.
It has taken many years to experience the emotions that I shut down. Perhaps this is the greatest part of Robert’s crime, the damage to his students emotions. He cannot and should not be judged as an ordinary man but as what he claims to be a “higher ” man using his position as the leader of a group to live like a psychic and emotional vampire sucking the life ( no pun intended) out of those whose he is supposed to guide and nurture His “beloved students”.
Please keep posting these honest experiences for your own sake and for others. If there are FOF members who are rading the blog perhaps over time with the repatition they will begin to understand their part in this ongoing play of crime.
One a quiet sunday night I turn on the computer and get hit with this. You people are exceeding my highest expectations (wait, did I have expectations?) and pretty much blew my mind. There is so much I would like to comment that I am almost speechless.
Just a few acknowledgments:
Thanks Yesri, I finally watched the History Boys the other night. Brilliant.
Thanks Turbot for Evolution in motion, freaky indeed. I suspect my daughters have been up to something similar for a while now.
Tiger 739
Yes, the Sopranos, I knew the consiglieri Bruce and Uno were up to something, remember Howard Carter, somebody must have tipped him off… Maybe my cousins in Capri have something to do with this too….
699 Vena
That is heartbreaking… I remember bumping into an old “Fellowship of Friends” friend, a girl I had shared a room with during our first heroic months at Renaissance, sharing so much more, I was at her wedding, and then I meet her years later in a restaurant in Florence and she gives me the cold treatment! I was so sorry for her… what a shame to see people trapped in a web of lies…
Old Fish, 712
thanks, that is a wonderful documentary (I do agree with the “way too much Bono” assessment, though). I was thinking of uploading on You Tube the part in which he speaks about failure and reaching the masterpiece, it is so relevant to the ongoing discussion. I’ll try to get to it.
Graduates 1
Touché!
‘ton 3
namaste
The party is on… (prudes abstain, it’s very pubic)
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=OJk173PeZiI
a final dedication:
to the courageous and gifted women who inhabit this domain… u know who u r.
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=_swFHp-0_sY
Hey lady–you got the love I need
Maybe more than enough.
Oh darling… walk a while with me
Ooh, youve got so much…
Many times I loved
Many times been bitten
Many times Ive gazed
Along the open road.
Many times Ive lied
Many times Ive listened
Many times Ive wondered
How much there is to know.
Many dreams come true
And some have silver linings
I live for my dream
And a pocketful of gold.
Mellow is the man
Who knows what hes been missing
Many many men
Cant see the open road.
Many is a word
That only leaves you guessing
Guessing bout a thing
You really ought to know, ooh!
You really ought to know
I really ought to know!
Oooh, you know I should, you know I should, you know I should…
21/653 (newly moderated)
Dear “I see, said the blind man”,
I’m going to assume you’re not implying that any of us attracted to the FOF were predestined to go through that kind suffering because we lacked something in ourselves and needed that “lesson”, but your words could be read that way. I think innocence rather than ignorance lead most of us to join the FOF, and one way or another we each found our threshold and left.
The neon warning you sense when it comes to goading on WR’s or anyone’s victim status is right understanding IMO and I also felt some disappointment in this regard for some of the posts to WR. As a woman I feel a unique empathy for the unwelcomed experiences of WhaleRider, More History Needed, ‘ton and all the others.
The experience cannot be undone, only the relationship to it. No one else can make a victim agree to reclaim the remaining gift of their life, but as a friend we can try. We all feel anger and disgust at the sleaziness of the whole Robert and FOF package because most of all it was a betrayal of our expectations.
Understanding “what is” remains a constantly shifting equation, of which we are a part, and I think that’s where personal responsibility lies.
============================================
Dear WhaleRider, if you are here, you may have missed a newly moderated post to you from Unoanimo on page 21/633.
Love to all.
Dear Former student
Thanks for your courage and I wish you so much healing as I do for all of us.
Maybe some women can come forward with their experiences about the abortion Robert wanted….?
Ouchi,
I do not expect this from any body…there are websites and organizations who help women with this trauma……
Ouchi,
Love to all of you
Reposting From Part 21
________________________________
633 unoanimo
Hello Whalerider ~
You wrote ~
“The trouble is…my ‘self’. I don’t want to remember myself.”
_______________________________________________
Right. The trouble is that Robert Burton taught self remember to displace being and conscience, artificially (to serve his needs and his ’style’ of post-Alex Horn exile from ‘The Family’; instead of the traditional ‘content’, he dumped his ego and all that it implies into the crystal clear fountain of Rumi, where Law Books go in and come out ’still dry’. The Fellowship of Friends taught students to ~
expect, rather than to treat today as if it were the last, at least a little, I know that one is a whopper…
to have faith, rather than to be faithless enough in tomorrow and be enough of oneself for another to be able to have faith in that being of one’s own essence…
to use the mind to create for obstacles, rather than simply letting it use itself till this ‘letting’ (quiet permission to raise hell and spit emotional smiles at everyone) simply fizzled out into one’s own nothingness, i.e., that we are not what we do to be nothing…
to use sex energy for sexual pursuit and suits, rather than one’s own conscience pursuits, Robert Burton never talked about the Sex Center much because that was his main target of abuse, traumatic power and destruction; any attention to the Sex Center would have eventually led to a bridge being built between it and the conscience, which is absolutely essential to go beyond Relative Awakening, Robert Burton never built this bridge, this is how it is (one reason of many) that ‘his school’ is not ‘a school’…
children were ‘put under the thumb’ and for the most part still are; they are also a symbol of this ‘bridge’ between the Sex Center and Conscience, something (unless it’s a beautiful affirmative young little boy, who smiles at Robert Burton’s pedophile grin) that Robert Burton simply cannot endure, i.e., an unpredictable voice of its own power, doing very well without his attention, his fear of being overlooked, his fear of being not busy enough to seem as though he’s working harder than his students, his King of Clubs position of sitting ‘behind’ the auction ’suction cup crowd’, his ‘conscious’ back of the line for the pearly gates slouch, his phantom, smooooth gliding walk that simply gives me the willies every time I see it in the satellite reception room.
_____________________________
For me, Whalerider, these days, I don’t want to remember myself either, so ‘I’ don’t, that leaves plenty of room for more of what self remembering is, i.e., the ‘remembering’, not the ’self’, for when ‘I’ do ’self-remember’ there’s nothing there, after all, without context and content, what is the self but pure presence, clear, like that fountain that contains Rumi’s Law Books and two whales?
There is a place where circumstance stands still.
___________________________________
Love to you Whalerider, you are absolutely (not) alone in all this: the desert does not blow around the Buddha, rather, through him (or her). Take gentle care friend.
l.t.y.a.
P.S.
BTW
Happy 800th birthday Rumi
Ames (21 / 603)
I almost always agree with your posts, Ames. And fully respect your take.
But in my view one of your the recent posts needs an addition to be more fully true. It is probably true that most students in a position of responsibility for the past 10-12 years were as you described – in on “it.” Though even until recently – perhaps even now? – I doubt if most students, even those in positions of responsibility, understood the shockingly large scale of Robert Burton’s sexual impropriety.
I write to correct this as inadvertently the idea that everyone knew – may even now further wound those who were wounded. Also, to bear witness as accurately as possible. The proposition that “everyone knew” was decidedly NOT the case in the earlier days of the Fellowship of Friends.
For example, when I found out in the very late 70s, it was because Robert Burton had sent a troublesome student (read: one who knew the truth – and had to be sent away because of it) from The Property to an outlying center where I was in a position of responsibility. The memory is still clear – being in the dining room with this poor student as he explained patiently to me (again and again) the ridiculous idea that The Teacher was a homosexual who had relations with students.
By the way, this student was a homosexual and had not had relations with Robert Burton. But he indicated that he had a sense about people who were as he was – and had gotten a story from another young non-homosexual man who had had reluctant relations with Robert Burton.
The homosexual student indicated that his “research” had confirmed his suspicion that Robert Burton tended to a passive (receptive) role in sexual activities, and further indicated that like a certain subset of homosexuals Robert Burton preferred to have sex with heterosexuals. He told me that Robert Burton had found out about his “research” and this was the reason that he had been sent away from The Property.
In my innocence (the depth of which is a measure of how deeply Robert’s behaviors were hidden), I thought that this student was quite LITERALLY crazy – and I was humoring him along for the better part of an evening trying to figure out what to do about him. Well into the evening it suddenly came in a flash and penetrated that he might be telling the truth. This was a jolt that shook me to the quick. It would be hard to overstate this effect.
Later that night I called Robert Burton on the phone and asked him about this. He said (verbatim) about himself, “you have to play the hand you’re dealt.” Then he asked me to “release” the student from the Fellowship of Friends. I told Robert Burton that I could not do this – as the person had confided this information to me in sincerity and as a part my effort of trying to figure out why he was sent here. Robert got very angry and then calmed down and indicated that it was a weakness of my body type – that later I would learn to be more ruthless. And that for now he would honor my decision.
I spent the next few weeks trying to find out what was going on – and who knew what. I found that, with one exception, all of the “older students” queried (in a non-revealing manner) did not know. This highly focused effort on my part included Joel F and Sandra C and many others. Inevitably they gave the accepted wisdom: that Robert Burton had indicated and seemed to be fully celibate – and saved his sex energies for higher states.
Finally, one meeting-night at the Skyline Community Church in Oakland, California (where the big weekly meetings were held) I spoke privately with Miles B. He said yes Robert Burton was having homosexual relations with students. That he did not know what to think of it – but that he (Miles) had been reading up on homosexuality and generally trying to study on it and think about it. Miles then told me in a straight forward manner that he really didn’t understand it, but it did NOT seem right or good; it seemed very wrong for a teacher to engage in such activity with his students.
It took me a little while, but as soon as possible I removed myself from any and all positions of responsibility or prominence in the Fellowship of Friends. It took longer to leave. By the way, on next seeing Robert Burton he gave me a big wet sloppy kiss on the mouth — I was privately disgusted. And from that time on, when looking around I could see the signs and encouragements to homosexuality (a funnel directed toward Robert Burton) in many aspects of the physical school and teaching. It had always been there but I did not have the non-naïve eyes to see until then.
It was a terrible thing to no longer be able to indulge the luxury of being naïve. During the years long process of processing – which was one of deep loss – really of grieving (what, innocence lost, amputation of a spiritual limb?) – I was better able to understand things somewhat more clearly. Though it wasn’t until actually leaving the Fellowship of Friends and time gone by that the understanding grew more certain – and surprisingly now the blog …
Robert Burton had designed a form whereby largely the people in responsibility did NOT know his crimes. They (read: we) welcomed vulnerable students into the fold. The blowback that you sometimes heard from people returning from The Property to your center – did not compute. We didn’t know. And the vulnerable students, in retrospect, based on our dull responses must have assumed that we knew and were in on it, or that we didn’t know and wouldn’t believe them. So they were very effectively isolated.
It is ludicrous to think that Robert Burton “believes” or understands the idea of C-Influence that he promotes. If he did, it would be impossible for him to act in these ways. My present understanding is that Robert Burton is a spiritual criminal. His enablers have terrible karma. And Robert Burton’s karma is far worse – with the final payment having not yet been fully rendered.
“But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
The form of the Fellowship of Friends was a thoughtful systematic construction of great cunning and wickedness – designed and controlled by Robert Burton. The “older” students, leaders, good students and regular students all – were beards for Robert Burton. Our role, my role, was one of naïve attraction and naïve concealment. And the activity which involved great shame for the violated and isolated went hidden or unbelieved for years if not decades (and for some will likely never be revealed).
Of course, there were students who knew back then. But it is my belief and educated sense that the great majority did not. I would like to note here in passing and acknowledge with respect that of the reputed “conscious beings” that I personally knew in the Fellowship of Friends, Miles B had the most integrity and Donald McD, not short on integrity either, easily had the most panache.
“It was a terrible thing to no longer be able to indulge the luxury of being naïve.” ‘Old FOF’
_________________________
Yes, and this, the beginnings of the birth pains of your ‘soul’.
Beautifully stated one line… thank you for this, thank you.
:.)
“My present understanding is that Robert Burton is a spiritual criminal. His enablers have terrible karma. And Robert Burton’s karma is far worse – with the final payment having not yet been fully rendered.”
“But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
——————————————————————–
Thanks Old FOF #13 – This is the cold, hard truth of the matter.
Robert Burton and his enablers (there are many and we know who they are) are in a very, very bad place. If they could acknowledge this they might have the possibility to redeem themselves. Working to expose this sick situation is an obligation of all who now know and understand.
1/Graduates
Your quote is correct, but it is not from 1970. It appeared in the Via Del Sol Journal on February 29, 1972, Vol. I, Issue No. 24, page 1.
Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20010408205237/http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8444/burned.htm
Hello friends,
Four of us just returned from a great European vacation, and let me tell you – the Network that GF has to offer really works!
Many people haven’t yet left FOF for fear that the global network of like-minded people would be lost with their departure.
The Greater Fellowship Network not only beautifully fills this need, but it allows one to spend wonderful time with friends without the heavy unnecessary baggage we have all experienced while in FOF. It wasn’t necessary to have your “best student” act (or false personality) on while traveling. It was a great pleasure to meet friends unconditionally, without judgment, expectations, certain learned behaviors, dress codes and silly exercises. Our essences truly seemed to flourish when unrestricted by limiting rules and open to free expression. We haven’t missed stuffy FOF meetings one bit!
We would like to sincerely thank all of you friends for spending time with us in Prague and Amsterdam: Michael, Layne, Ziga, Wolfgang, Margrit, Donald, Diane, Anna, Rita, Maria, Luda, Ira, Nicholas and Janine.
It was great to be with you, to share food and wine, and to have great conversations. Your presence made our trip emotionally rich and memorable.
Thank you for making yourselves available to spend time with us, and please let us know when you’re coming to New York – all of us will be more than happy to host you and show you a good time.
We encourage all GF-rs to use this wonderful network, to post the info about your upcoming travels and to try to connect with old friends and meet new ones.
With love,
Greg, Janna, Peri and Todd
New York
It’s time lovers to start hitting some ‘line drives’; I wonder what the Governor of California would say to the allegation (wonderment) concerning how it is that, in light of Enron, 911 and so much ‘physical’ terrorism, California does nothing to remove one person from ‘Spiritual-Sex-Terrorism’ ?
Yes, this is this winter’s new ‘Word!’ upon the psyche of the Earth’s geological point called ‘California’ and to whom ever ‘seems’ to be in charge of ‘her’ (as most things men are in charge of are usually named in the feminine)…
Yep, ‘Spiritual-Sex-Terrorism”, I wonder what that would do for California’s tourism and republican/democratic onlookers?
I mean, how many times can one say ‘Dah’ before simply turning it into the Eleventh Commandment?
I ask all who ‘will’ to write the California Governor’s Office a little reminder, that, right under their noses, their’s some serious shit being stirred by Robert Burton’s dick.
Word!
:.)
Old FOF
Thanks for sharing and I think you are correct that the karma is really bad. I wish you and I are wrong….
Thanks and all the best to you and all the healing in the world for all the pain and misery inflicted by the fellowship of friends and Robert Burton.
Many of us were part of the lies…
Time will heal the wounds…..and love and friendship.
There is help.
Ames 21/604
21/585 More History Needed
and to Unoanino/Res Ipsa Loquitor
I know I am not part of your community, so I hesitate always about making any comments. But sometimes the things you say strike so powerfully at my heart that I cannot help but speak up and get involved.
Your story was so unbelievably powerful to me, More History Needed. The calm, matter-of-fact description of your rape at the hands (mouth?) of Robert Burton made me want to reach through this computer screen and hold your hand to my heart for a second and acknowledge how terrible your loss of innocence was–and how vile was the man who did that to you. And, unfortunately, has done it to so many men.
And, Unanimo, your careful work on Res Ipsa Loquitor is unbelievable. I have not read it all–mostly because the anger builds up inside me to such a huge extent, and I have no one to share it with–that I just read for a half hour. That is all my soul can take on any given day. But, thank you, thank you for all the long hours such dedication to a project that casts light on the disgrace at Oregon House has cost you. If others have not read your hard work, I hope they take the time to do so.
I have a suggestion for you as a group. When Whalerider and More History Needed shared in such stunning detail the stories of their emotional, sexual, spiritual abuse in such quiet, heartwrenching detail–it makes it clear to all why the FoF must end, why Robert Burton must be stopped, and how hundreds of you have been horribly abused. Could one of you set up a webpage like Res Ipsa Loquitor where these simple stories of being abused are assembled all in one place? If each one of the men who endured Robert’s predatory attacks shared their stories it would help others to speak up, and others to stop denying the reality of the abuse. Also, I think very much that the women who have had to watch and worry about their men and suffered their own tragic losses of marriages, relationships, unborn children should also be shared on that same page. Let them tell the story of what they suffered, and how it felt. And, those children, who want to share their stories about what has happened to them growing up within the Fellowship also need to be heard.
But telling them in story form like More History Needed will make clear to anyone reading what is the true evil going on within the community is, and it may be one more step that will finally bring this all to an end.
Again, I apologize for interfering with my comments, but you have all become very real to me as I look in at this blog. I feel as if I know many of you, and it wounds my heart that such an evil has been committed. Speak up please so that it ends this year!
20 ~ Observer ~
You’re the only community I know of, so, not sure what all the apologies are for, unless you’re an undercover alien from another solar system… Your posting is honest and worthy to read more than once (and then some) as a reminder as to where many began from, i.e., a place of deep resonance with the ability to love innocently, pure, without parental hindrance and any desire to be certified as a “Man #4” or “Man #$$”…
Thank you for your beautiful freedom and ability to express yourself with only your permission to answer to… you are very fortunate and IMO, need never apologize for your heart having to beat more than once.
l.t.y.a.
I spent some time fishing with my son today
He’s a full seven and three quarters
It’s all catch and release for he and I
We’re all vegetarians.
Bonding with him now
Has taken on a new urgency
As part of my life unravels
Just like my fishing line
Snagged on some unseen rock below the surface
Something I have absolutely no control over
Do I pull the line until it snaps at the bottom
To save some thread of hope
Or cut my losses and run with it?
I think he knows something is up
I’ve told him Mommy and Daddy aren’t getting along
Out of the blue he says,
He doesn’t want a stepfather
In the stories we read they are always mean
Why is it so? I don’t have an answer
His words eviscerate me, I am internally bleeding
As I hold him tight and tell him I love him
Wearing sunglasses hides the tears
The sun dries them for me
Thank you all for being my sun.
Whalerider ~
Having a child in my life as well, I would say, IMO,
take the sunglasses off, hide nothing and do not pull on the snagged line or let it go, dive under and grab the hook, release it and bring it back to the pole.
Children are rememberer’s, sometimes the celestial arrives via itself, other times through a non-family member, an event or a series of linked together dreams and mystical experiences; regardless of the form, your love needs no physical proximity to be effective, no matter the screams and crying, the real will of your love will not be undone by any ‘real force’: children are not immune to illusion, only quicker to react to it’s opiate, find some ‘neutral stories’ of ‘parenting’;
in my case, by no means are my deamons unleashed more so than the ‘real parent’, so, as ‘black & white’ story books go, they’re selfish and written by the lower centers, that’s that… Rumi has a grip on this, you’ll figure something out, not to forget that his story is your story as well…
one of the greatest difficulties for me is seeing the fossils embedded in the sediment of my own soul glowing green and alive every time this ‘step-child’ of mine puts it’s hand to my forehead, inquires of my day, questions whether a repimand will follow with forgiveness, etc.
Physical time never asks for our permission, yet, your love and dedication, if it is truly what you wish, needs no form, no rules, only presence and practice, which, I sense you’ve got plenty of… perhaps it’s the physical proximity aspect that’s creating the illusion of ‘make or break’;
believe me, take it from someone who met his mother for four days his entire 40+ years on this planet, conscious intent and conscience is everything…
The five senses are often the ‘hand’ around the throat of the soul and ‘conscious love’ is that one hand clapping, allowing you to breath and him to live that which he is, with and physically without you…
I am finished with trust, screw god, we’ve got enough to do down here than to start with the Absolute or even end with such scale; that stuff takes care of itself, can we take care of ourselves is the issue IMO (?)
l.t.y.a.
To be, or not to be : that is the question:
Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die : to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The Heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, ’tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish’d. To die, to sleep;
To sleep : perchance to dream : ay, there’s the rub ;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause : there’s the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law’s delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover’d country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action. – Soft you now!
Act III, scene 1, lines 56-87
Hamlet
William Shakespeare
14 unoanimo
“It was a terrible thing to no longer be able to indulge the luxury of being naïve.” ‘Old FOF’
_________________________
Yes, and this, the beginnings of the birth pains of your ’soul’.
Beautifully stated one line… thank you for this, thank you.
Hmm,
Why not leave the birth pangs of your ‘soul’ out of it?
Why not concentate on ridding yourself of baloney rather than using the same old reference points to make a tired point?
Maybe you an Elena should go on a retreat together – No?
Anyone who has more answers than questions is majorly suspect. This is a bloodbath, not a lecture.
R.R.T ~
“bloodbath”… yes, R.R.T., your ‘faith’ in me is a “bloodbath” and when you stop accepting your own self prescribed aborted fetuses as real children of conscious births, then, let me know, until then, stick to your books and don’t go trying to sell me insurance policies: I am already dead and in your pragmatic self-hood hides the mother of both Little Red Riding Hood and her Brother Wolf… good luck, you’ll make a fine Granny.
:.)
Laura
How about when the jock was asked to define history and his reply was: “Well it is just one fucking thing after another isn’t it?”
#25 mr. fishy #2
Ruh Row
When I use the sequence, I often think of all those
who made the same effort before us. I realize that
it is now my turn, and my responsibility to use
it.
Love, Robert
my turn, my responsibility?
total madness.
22/22
Dear WhaleRider, maybe you have more choices than you can see. From your analogy of the fishing line I also had the understanding that you could dive down to untangle it, and with this right effort the solution was not necessarily out of your hands.
There’s a book I love that addresses the mystical and psychological aspects of raising children in a practical way that’s very accessible. It’s the most intelligent read I’ve ever found on the subject and the only one that addresses the totality of a person. It opens the heart and understanding in a way that might serve you well right now. The title is Whole Child/Whole Parent , author Polly Berrien Berends.
Your son doesn’t want a step-father, so you’ve been advised!
Best wishes and success.
To #20 Observer:
Thank you and no apology needed. Your sentiments, perceptions and understanding are welcome and are a big help to the growing tide of awareness that we hope will reach to those inside. The more local people who know what is going on in this closed, sick and insular little group behind its pretty facade the better.
Inspirational school lyrics
Cocksucker Blues
(aka Schoolboy Blues)
(Jagger/Richards)
Well, I’m a lonesome schoolboy
And I just came into town
Yeah, I’m a lonesome schoolboy
And I just came into town
Well, I heard so much about London
I decided to check it out
Well, I wait in Leicester Square
With a come-hither look in my eye
Yeah, I’m leaning on Nelsons Column
But all I do is talk to the lions
Oh where can I get my cock sucked?
Where can I get my ass fucked?
I may have no money,
But I know where to put it every time
Well, I asked a young policeman
If he’d only lock me up for the night
Well, I’ve had pigs in the farmyard,
Some of them, some of them, they’re alright
Well, he fucked me with his truncheon
And his helmet was way too tight
Oh where can I get my cock sucked?
Where can I get my ass fucked?
I ain’t got no money,
But I know where to put it every time
I’m a lonesome schoolboy in your town
I’m a lonesome schoolboy
property Rolling Stones.
Those ‘Yabba Dabba Doo’ Cuff Links Again!
_______________________________________________
“Darnit Barney, I thought I told you to tell Betty to tell Wilma to have to boil my Terradactyl egg for 3 minutes, not an hour!”
________________________________________________
I was under a happy spell for many years, until this big Robert Burton event at our house…This when I suddenly got the first glimpse of an uncomfortable feeling that may be we all are being dooped. Strangely, but before this event I saw nothing wrong, heard nothing wrong and would defend the school like it was my own home – just like you do now.
Our center had to prepare for big Tea.
Our center didn’t have money to rent a large space in the city so we were asked if our house could be used. At that time it was a total construction zone, but we agreed – and gladly so! And we went nuts, preparing for this event and spent thousands of dollars just to make it nice doing temporary improvements just for this event. We even built a temporary wooden fence to disguise the dumpster in front of the house… Of course we never even asked for reimbursement – there wasn’t even a thought about it!
All was done from our heart, sincerely, and we didn’t care how much it costs us… We were good students.
And Robert Burton arrived, and briefly gave his usual keys performance with Asaf, and everyone stared in silence with smiles and glossy eyes. No one haven’t even touched the fine French pastries or tea… I was seated on the couch next to my Teacher and I was in total heaven, listening to his voice so close to me, smelling his fine cologne and feeling the flavor of pastries in my mouth…
Yes, I was actually eating the whole time. Love those pastries, can’t help it! It was caught on camera, and later quite few of my friends called me to tell how shocked they were to see me eat and drink at Teaching Tea.
The event was over, and Robert rushed to the door. And then the ugly “cuff link scene” occurred. Robert Burton was rushing his boys to run get the car, to get to the city quickly, before the jeweler closes… One of them asked: Robert, do you really want these cuff links?” – “Yes, yes! I told you. I want them! Hurry up, get the car, let’s go. Now. Quickly. Call him, now, make sure he is still open…” His face was tense, he sounded… just like an identified angry guy. Yes, he was very identified. I have never seen my teacher like that, although I heard stories before.
My boyfriend and I were allowed to stand nearby and so we heard every word. Suddenly he turned to us and gave us one of those peaceful loving smiles… The smile we know and love so much… That makes you feel OK…
But I felt so bad. I felt deception. I felt like this was all fake and we were just taken, used by this powerful man… He just used us, our friends and our house to make good money on his brief performance and now is done with us and rushing to get what he wants. And doesn’t give a damn about this huge crowd of devoted students, who love him and made huge efforts to travel to our place from all over just to spend time with him… A stupid piece of jewelry was – obviously – so much more important to him than all of us.
I had mixed thoughts in my head, I couldn’t understand, justify, explain all this. And it only got worse, when I returned to the kitchen. I saw that all these polite good students, who were just nobly “preferring presence over food” in front of the Teacher (Robert Burton), were now devouring pastries right from the plates by the sink, using their hands, stuffing their mouths like hungry beasts! This was just hysterical. The falseness and hypocrisy of the whole thing was unbearable.
I suddenly saw things in a different light.
This event was a first wake-up call for me. I still needed few more like this, and I had them soon after that. I guess everybody has to have theirs to pry open their shell.
Question to Siddiq and Howard Carter (or anyone who wishes to answer) – do you ever see any hypocrisy and falseness in Robert, in Council actions, students behavior, in teaching events? Ever?
If yes – what do you say to yourself about it? I am really curious.
395/9/No Person
Thank you Old FoF for your clarification. I think for the past seventeen years that I was in the Felllowship, the multiple absurdities walked around in day light for anyone willing to look at them. One of the problems is that we all wanted to be in a conscious school working for something better than life so badly, that we willingly overlooked the absurdities, humiliations, rapes, until a violent enough shock was able to focus on the reality of the general decadence better than one’s own inflated desire.
I personally did not believe my own reality check for such a long time and thought that at least these people were trying to work for something worthy. It was when it became shockingly clear that they weren’t willing to work for anything but Robert’s lust, that the whole thing took the dimensions it has taken.
Turbot, I’ll gladly move out when you start saying what I wish to say. You’re trying to photograph something that surely many think, why don’t you dare say exactly what it is instead of giving me petty negatives? Can’t you get yourself standing firmly enough to even give a photograph? Is that why you hit instead of click? Looks like they damaged your camera in the Fellowship because like Robert you can’t respect enough of the person in front of you to talk. What makes you think you can stand Unoanimo next to me? Does that give power to your blow? You can’t even bear when he says thank you? You think you’re more constructive? Or can you do nothing but destroy like so many who make of saying no their only crystallized gesture and deny to dialogue. You get fixed in your personal dislikes, like with Joel and then nothing can come out of his mouth, no matter how decent, because you turn it into shit, but the shit is in your heart and you don’t care to clean it. There’s another lecture for you and many in store so keep inviting me because I am happy to serve you as much as anybody else.
26″ Anyone who has more answers than questions is majorly suspect. This is a bloodbath, not a lecture”
27 unoanimo
“bloodbath”… yes, R.R.T., your ‘faith’ in me is a “bloodbath” and when you stop accepting your own self prescribed aborted fetuses as real children of conscious births, then, let me know, until then, stick to your books and don’t go trying to sell me insurance policies: I am already dead and in your pragmatic self-hood hides the mother of both Little Red Riding Hood and her Brother Wolf… good luck, you’ll make a fine Granny.
Hard to make out the meaning in many of your posts, Eenymeenyminymo, they seem rather random. 26 was meant the other way around, I was pointing out that this is a bloodbath not a lecture and to be careful of folks with answers, especially self righteous folks with answers.
It’s really happening, “as if by magic”.
I can feel it, can you?
For everything there is a time under heaven.
My perception at present is that these people are “magicians”. Just look at the sheeps’ dazed-out eyes…
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=3cDgOf2Om28
A note to current FoF members,
If you have been reading the blog for long you will have seen a lot written about the shocking and abhorrent excesses in the areas of sex and money. For me, when I left so many years ago, these were issues – but they were definitely not my entire reason for leaving. If I had really understood the depth of the depravity and the degree of harm being inflicted, perhaps they would have been. But for me there was an even larger issue – namely that the Fellowship had become crippled as a fourth way school.
What do I mean by that? Well, I don’t mean that there were not many sincere and intelligent seekers in the Fellowship. Certainly there were, and that for me was a big plus. But it had always seemed to me that a true school, and in particular a conscious school, would be a place where the teacher, because of his greater insight into the work and his far more subtle understanding than my own could provide practical guidance by showing us how ideas were being misunderstood, so as to create a deeper understanding. In other words, the school would transmit ‘C Influence’.
In the Fellowship, of course, the term ‘C Influence’ has devolved over time to become simply a synonym for ‘God’ or ‘the gods’. When used in this way it is slowly leached of any deeper meaning. But it is clear that as it was described by Ouspensky it referred to something that originated in higher mind and that could not be transmitted properly in writing, and which was therefore transmitted in and by schools. So it seemed to me that if the Fellowship were a Conscious school, this process would be occurring. And yet there were so many ways in which it seemed it was not. And this was visible in how work ideas were understood, or perhaps more correctly, not understood in the school, and in how we students worked and worked together.
Most people who have spent a significant amount of time studying the fourth way will realize that there is a certain subtlety to the ideas there. You can take them in a simple dull sort of way and they are lifeless, or you can appreciate the nuance they contain and see a more significant meaning behind the obvious. Surely this would be the true value of C Influence – to guide us to the deeper truths hinted at by the words, and to free those truths so that they illuminate us. Would C Influence not be the breath that brings the ideas to life, so that they are dynamic rather than static?
But unfortunately this was not happening. Over and over again I saw central ideas of the work seem to collapse into formatory thinking in a way that was amazingly hard to resist. ‘C Influence’ became simply a synonym for ‘the gods’. Not expressing negative emotions became a tool for suppressing inquiry and dissent, to the point that asking an honest question could be very dangerous. Exercises introduced by the teacher, which seemed to be perfectly good tools when introduced, became moral imperatives with which students judged each other (thereby utilizing one of the few acceptable forms of expressing negativity). Alchemy became the class/status mechanism for the Fellowship, once again used to judge people. The instinctive center became ‘bad’ and the emotional center ‘good’, independent of context. In short, all these ideas were being taken in a static formatory way most of the time. And unfortunately there was no sign that the teacher even noticed.
I struggled for a long time with this. I certainly have my own style of arrogance, but I am not the sort of person who would easily assume that I was the only person seeing this correctly and that the other 2,000 obviously intelligent people in the school were simply wrong. Of course, now I know that many others were thinking about these same issues, but at that time it was simply not acceptable to speak about certain things, so I didn’t realize that I was not alone in thinking these things. This was, of course, yet another sign that the school was not functioning properly as a conscious school. How could a conscious school be a place where certain questions are impermissible?
So what about you, current FoF student? Does the Fellowship operate as a conscious school for you in some way that it did not for me? I haven’t been there for a long time and certainly things have changed – but I am not hearing anything that makes me think these issues have improved over the years. Do you find yourself needing to make excuses about certain aspects of the school because you don’t want to lose other things, or lose your friends? Perhaps that could be sensible – but to my mind, only if it were really a conscious school. So is it for you? It is not being negative to think deeply and honestly about that question. If you want to awaken there can be no subject that is off-limits.
Leaving the Fellowship is a scary thing, particularly if you have believed. Despite my thinking, as outlined above, I certainly hesitated to leave. But I can say that I have never regretted it, with the sole exception of missing the company of some of you who remain.
Best to you all,
R.
I remember a student asking Robert at a dinner, “Robert, exactly what do you mean when you talk about the Gods.”
He just shrugged and said, “The Gods. The great immortal Gods.”
RobertC said:
“Over and over again I saw central ideas of the work seem to collapse into formatory thinking in a way that was amazingly hard to resist. ‘C Influence’ became simply a synonym for ‘the gods’. Not expressing negative emotions became a tool for suppressing inquiry and dissent, to the point that asking an honest question could be very dangerous. Exercises introduced by the teacher, which seemed to be perfectly good tools when introduced, became moral imperatives with which students judged each other (thereby utilizing one of the few acceptable forms of expressing negativity). Alchemy became the class/status mechanism for the Fellowship, once again used to judge people. The instinctive center became ‘bad’ and the emotional center ‘good’, independent of context. In short, all these ideas were being taken in a static formatory way most of the time. And unfortunately there was no sign that the teacher even noticed.”
and
“If you want to awaken there can be no subject that is off-limits.”
This entire post is very important to me, and the above quoted sentence is the kernel of the truth of why the Fellowship of Friends was not a conscious school for me. Absolutely spot on.
36
RobertC
“If you want to awaken there can be no subject that is off-limits.”
I doubted my own observations and questions SPECIFICALLY because others I connected with and cared for or admired and respected were so sure. Years lost with the 600-pound gorilla there all along…….
It’s a pleasure now to remain emotionally connected with those I care for and have the freedom to ‘agree to disagree’ at times — like on this blog! The memory of the former psychology is very painful, and the years lost irretrievable.
Current members, can you hear this and let go? This post is for you.
In my more clear moments I think of you ‘ton and more history needed. Had I stood up when I left, you might have been spared. I am so sorry.
Thank you, Another Name, Yesri baba, Across the River, Old Fish in the Sea, Observer, Xena, unoanimo, KA, Dream Catcher, Joseph G, Elena, Ames, Laura, Aline C, veronicapoe, and Bass Ackwards. I took the time today to re-read all your posts of love and support. This is the beauty of the blog, your support is so easily accessible to me anytime and I need that.
‘I see’ said the blind man ~21-653 and across the river
This is for you.
It was lightly raining earlier today, enough to be felt on our faces. I went out this morning without my jacket to take the kids to school. The fact that it was raining and I forgot my jacket was enough to set me off. Lately, I feel a great loss each time I leave my children at school, and today I felt that sadness on the way to school, because I had neglected myself. I felt as raw as the weather. Again. The rain masked the tears on my face. On the way home, I had to put my forearms in the opposite sleeves of my shirt on for warmth, like the old Chinese do. It felt like holding myself. I do that at night in bed now each night. I cross my arms hold myself because my wife is literally, as she says, “in a different place”.
I wish with all my being that I could dive under and untangle the line that is snagged between me and my wife. I fear that with the weight I have been carrying, I would never resurface. I want more than anything to reel her back to me, yet I am coming to terms with the fact that she feels suffocated in her growth when she is around me. Not only has she expressly made it clear that our issues cannot be ‘fixed’ by me, but I have no idea what netting or ancient relics are tangled down there on that rock; she is not revealing anything. Yet. The water remains murky and the pressure down there is great. Is she protecting me from something? So I float on the surface, gratefully holding on to each of your hands to keep me from sinking.
We have each other to keep us afloat. For free. The only requirement is that we be real with each other. And feel each other’s joy and sadness. I would so do the same for any of you. You all understand the need for the second line of work. My therapist is trained to keep his professional distance. My wife shuts down when I cry. My kids have no clue what I have been through, thankfully.
This blog is the one place where I can drop the façade and express my pain where it might do some good. I am not the kind of person to let others fall into the same hole on the path that I fell into. I am going to leave a big fucking sign for others to see, with neon flashing lights. And I am going to keep putting up that sign until the Fellowship is gone.
When you ask for help from a teacher and his older students, you have to make yourself vulnerable, that’s the deal. Otherwise you would not have joined the Fellowship of Friends. The only predisposition is that you don’t buffer the fact that you need help. Some need more help than others and thus have to make themselves more vulnerable than others. Some get horribly burned and emotionally disfigured. Do you exclude them because it’s too painful to look at? In the end, we all gain from each other’s work.
The pace of Robert Burton’s corrupt ‘school’ is quickening. The truth is as his followers release their grip, it is descending more rapidly. We keep him going with our silence and fear. We are all accountable for each day he continues his crime spree unabated.
Its like we all go into the dark tent and come out again and someone says, “well, its got to be like that old story, and so it must be an elephant!”, so we all agree and share our ‘angles’ about the ‘elephant’. We hardly can hear those screaming and running from the tent yelling “Oh God! Its a 600 pound gorilla!!!”
Yes, I agree that RoberC’s post went to one of the hearts of the matter for me. I remember scribing (the only way I knew of for a nobody girl to get to be able to sit at a ‘dinner’ and listen to what RB had to say, and it was very revealing. I remember him changing the C influence stuff, and I was very disturbed that he could not offer any ‘long’ thoughts. I don’t mean lengthy meanderings, but intelligently-emotional-intelligent thoughts. Only repeated pompous little sound bites, and as scribe I got to see this all too clearly. That , combined with the pervading atmosphere of non-compassion and desire to isolate from life pretty much did it for me. Plus I felt myself becoming emotionally addicted and got lots of warning bells.
More for the UTubers and any trying to bridge the innie-outtie chasm.
(translation)
You still haven’t recognized me,
Although I’m standing right in front of you.
I want to talk with you,
But somehow I can’t.
I haven’t seen you for a long time.
I look you full in the face.
I’m looking for an old friend,
But I find none.
Try to remember-
We lived through so much together.
It’s like it never happened.
Nothing left –
All simply erased.
All those many years.
Is it like that with you too,
That you no longer understand me?
It’s like it never happened.
Nothing left –
All simply erased.
All those many years.
Where is the spark that bound us?
Nothing could part us,
I always thought.
Did we really
Once swear friendship?
If there were once a source,
We have lost it.
Try to remember-
We lived through so much together.
It’s like it never happened.
Nothing left –
All simply erased.
All those many years.
Is it like that with you too,
That you no longer understand me?
It’s like it never happened.
Nothing left –
All simply erased.
All those many years.
Your eyes remain blank,
And, without a word,
I understand, and walk by you.
Try to remember-
We lived through so much together.
It’s like it never happened.
Nothing left –
All so far away,
All those many years.
Is it like that with you too,
That you no longer understand me?
It’s like it never happened.
Nothing left –
All so far away,
All those many years.
=====================================
Du hast mich noch nicht erkannt,
obwohl ich vor dir steh.
Ich möchte mit dir reden,
doch irgendwie kann ich’s nicht.
Ich hab dich lang nicht mehr gesehn,
guck jetzt in dein Gesicht.
Ich suche einen alten Freund,
doch ich entdecke nichts.
Versuch dich zu erinnern,
wir haben so viel erlebt.
Es ist, als wäre das alles nie geschehn.
Nichts ist mehr geblieben,
alles ausgelöscht
All die ganzen Jahre…
Ob es dir wohl auch so geht,
dass du mich nicht mehr verstehst?
Es ist, als wäre das alles nie geschehn.
Nichts ist mehr geblieben,
alles ausgelöscht
All die ganzen Jahre…
Wo ist der Funke,
der uns verbunden hat?
Es gibt nichts, das uns trennt,
habe ich immer gedacht.
Haben wir uns wirklich jemals
die Freundschaft geschworn?
Wenn es einen Grund gab,
wir haben ihn verlorn.
Versuch dich zu erinnern,
wir haben so viel erlebt.
Es ist, als wäre das alles nie geschehn.
Nichts ist mehr geblieben,
alles so weit weg.
All die ganzen Jahre…
Ob es dir wohl auch so geht,
dass du mich nicht mehr verstehst?
Es ist, als wäre das alles nie geschehn.
Nichts ist mehr geblieben,
alles so weit weg.
All die ganzen Jahre…
Deine Augen bleiben tot
und ich weiß jetzt Bescheid.
Ohne ein Wort zu sagen,
geh ich an dir vorbei.
Versuch dich zu erinnern,
wir haben so viel erlebt.
Es ist als wäre das alles nie geschehen.
Nichts ist mehr geblieben,
alles so weit weg.
All die ganzen Jahre…
Ob es dir wohl auch so geht,
dass du mich nicht mehr verstehst?
Es ist als wäre das alles nie geschehen.
Nichts ist mehr geblieben,
alles so weit weg.
All die ganzen Jahre…
WhaleRider (around) 40
In my more clear moments…
*********
If I had any good advice that would make a difference I would offer it, I don’t other than some practical suggestions.
Make up your mind that this is done and take the initiative, make practical plans to move out and GET A LAWYER. She will get one and you will need to protect yourself from the person working for her interests. They count on the husband to be crippled by guilt and sorrow. Protect yourself and don’t allow yourself to be stunned into passivity.
Dear dear whale rider, maybe visualizing yourself as Bill Murray aka Steve Zissou might help a bit…
we’re all right there in the submersible with you, all the way to the bottom of the deep blue sea
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=IPMf8G8Pi5o
Graduates 43
WTF?
Brother Sun, Sister Moon
Donovan/Zeffirelli 02:45
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=9wfXR_ct0jc
Brother Sun, Sister Moon …
Brother Sun and Sister Moon
I seldom see you seldom hear your tune
Preoccupied with selfish misery
Brother Wind and Sister Air
Open my eyes to visions pure and fair
That I may see the glory around me.
I am God’s creature, of Him I am part
I feel His love awakening my heart.
Brother Sun and Sister Moon
I now do see you, I can hear your tune
So much in love with all that I survey.
The Wall
A female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been going to the Western Wall to pray, twice a day, every day, for a long, long time.
So she went to check it out. She went to the Western Wall and there he was, walking slowly up to the holy site.
She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, using a cane and moving very slowly, she approached him for an interview.
“Pardon me, sir, I’m Rebecca Smith from CNN. What’s your name?
“Morris Fishbien,” he replied.
“Sir, how long have you been coming to the Western Wall and praying?”
“For about 60 years.”
“60 years! That’s amazing! What do you pray for?”
“I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews and the Muslims.”
“I pray for all the wars and all the hatred to stop. ”
“I pray for all our children to grow up safely as responsible adults, and to love their fellow man.”
“How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?”
“Like I’m talking to a fuckin’ wall.”
Brother Sun, Sister Moon
Donovan/Zeffirelli 02:45
Alternative link:
Dear Old FOF,
You are quite right, I took out the house painting brush to do a portrait, and so my message lacked precision and nuance.
I was coming from the point of view of learning, a few weeks after I got the boot, that the center director when I joined in London, Peter B_sh_p., had been ‘insincere’ when I asked about Burton’s celibacy at that time. He sold me the line that Burton was celibate and ‘used this energy to maintain higher centers and states’; in fact, according to what he personally admitted to me in 1994, Burton and he had had a prior sexual relationship, and it was ongoing (from time to time) when I asked the question in 1978.
I agree with your point generally. I had several long conversations with Stella after I left, and she described her journey of discovery; in the essentials, the same as yours, including disbelieving accounts from those who, in hindsight, surely knew the truth. She disbelieved for over five years, and actually stepped up her efforts to protect Burton in response to the stories; a strong part of this was probably to defend her own worldview and investment in her belief system. I did the same, so it is safe to assume the possibility for everyone else.
Thanks for pointing out that surprisingly few members and directors knew much for many years, and for sharing the details of your personal story.
And thanks, David, for setting me right about Milton as the source of my quote. Hopefully, that error didn’t distract from the message.
Thank you, Sheik, for ‘keeping at it’, despite your present difficulties, and thanks to all the contributors to this fascinating conversation. I’m learning a lot.
With love to you all,
Ames
St. Francis –
Brother Sun Sister Moon
(São Francisco) 07:19
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=B43AIvPiNaQ
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace
Where there is hatred, let me sow love
Where there is injury, let me sow pardon
Where there is doubt, let me sow faith
It is in giving that we receive
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned
It is in dying that we are born;
That we are born to eternal life.
Where there is despair, let me sow hope
Where there is darkness, let me sow light
And where there is sadness, let me sow joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console —
to be understood as to understand —
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive.
It is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
Francis of Assisi
————————–
If You Want Your Dream To Be …
If you want your dream to be
Build it slow and surely.
Small beginnings, greater ends
Heartfelt work grows purely.
If you want to live life free
Take your time go slowly.
Do few things but do them well
Simple joys are holy.
Day by day,
Stone by stone,
Build your secret slowly.
Day by day,
You’ll grow too,
You’ll know heaven’s glory.
If you want your dream to be
Build it slow and surely.
Small beginnings, greater ends,
Heartfelt work grows purely.
If you want to live life free
Take your time go slowly.
St. Francis –
Brother Sun Sister Moon
(São Francisco) 07:19
Alternative Link:
St. Francis –
Brother Sun Sister Moon
(São Francisco) 07:19
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=B43AIvPiNaQ
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace
Where there is hatred, let me sow love
Where there is injury, let me sow pardon
Where there is doubt, let me sow faith
It is in giving that we receive
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned
It is in dying that we are born;
That we are born to eternal life.
Where there is despair, let me sow hope
Where there is darkness, let me sow light
And where there is sadness, let me sow joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console —
to be understood as to understand —
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive.
It is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
Francis of Assisi
Laura (around) 45
Graduates 43
WTF?
***********
Usually when one or another spouse initiates the preliminary stages of a breakup he or she is already involved with someone else. The sooner the aggrieved party faces the facts the better off he or she is emotionally and financially. It’s a hard world and there is nothing harder about it than the oscillations of love.
“Usually when one or another spouse initiates the preliminary stages of a breakup he or she is already involved with someone else.”
Not true, they may have also simple reached their limit. Your statement is simply not true.
Bruce (around) 53
“Usually when one or another spouse initiates the preliminary stages of a breakup he or she is already involved with someone else.”
Not true, they may have also simple reached their limit. Your statement is simply not true.
*******
Obviously there is no statistical evidence to prove or refute the assertion, but I’m pretty sure that most of the time it is the case. At any rate one is foolish not to at least suspect as much.
Graduates/44
Not what Whalerider is looking to hear, but very solid advice IMO.
Whalerider, I think that if it appears that you have reached a point where you cannot live together, then it will be in everyone’s (especially the children) best interest to keep things as amicable as possible. I would try working through a mediator first. It wouldn’t hurt to have a lawyer lined up if a plan B is needed.
veronicapoe– I think you must be a man in virtual drag.
(This didn’t seem to go through the first time, so I hope it doesn’t come up double.)
Hello, dear blog-friends!
Well, I am still around. I’ve been an “ex-student” for 19 days now, and everything is fine — thanks, in part, to your consistent, ethereal support.
I’m pretty sure that this question has been asked at some point in the previous 12,500 posts or so on this blog, but here goes…
Does anyone know of one or more professional therapists in Northern California that might be of help to some of those who are transitioning away from the Fellowship? Perhaps offering ‘pro bono’ work or reduced fees?
I do have my reservations about therapies and therapists. The best recommendation I have received so far, and which I heartily endorse, is “ACT” — “Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.” It seems more ‘spiritually’ than ‘behaviorally’ oriented, and is a practical approach.
But sometimes reading a self-help book is not enough.
My sense is that some who post here, and many who don’t, could benefit from professional help in their transition, but either can’t find it, can’t afford it, or don’t know they need it.
Your thoughts and advice would be appreciated…
xena,
I don’t believe that Whalerider necessarily needs a lawyer to act on his behalf or that aggressive conduct is likely to be beneficial. I *do* think that men in such circumstances can benefit from being shown that there are worthwhile alternatives to weepy, wounded passivity. The weepy, wounded posture is more likely to repel a partner than to win her back.
It is a bit embarrasing to want to share in your plight so personal, and yet, don’t allow for doubt to enter as is suggested in some posts. If you love, keep loving until there’s nothing else to do and let her go all the way through that so that you too can live it without having left anything out. It is never too late big Whale. Not for one’s self. Stay close, stay patient, let her know she is safe around you, don’t you make any moves to separate yourselves. It takes a long time for one to really be ready for that move. And yet, don’t beg. Love your self with humility. Bring joy.
Whalerider.
I’d like to take some words back. Don’t be afraid of begging for what you really want. You might not get it but the Universe gives something else equally freeing.
61 Elena
I don’t want to rip your last two posts to shreds for the sake of it, but would like to take you up on what you seem to be implying, i.e that if you are nice, sincere, patient and loving you will be repaid by virtue of some higher law that says you will.
Do you really believe this? If so, on what basis?
KA circa 41
Your description of RB’s ‘dinner performances’ that you saw while scribing matches my impressions very well. Certainly RB is no master thinker – but even more than that he was not perceptive. Not everyone needs to be a deep thinker, but I would really expect a conscious teacher to notice interesting and relevant issues and to point them out. Perhaps rarely that sort of thing did occur – but it was certainly not the norm, and certainly not in a venue like dinners.
I remember vividly a dinner that was held at Anna Gold’s house near the property after an exquisite operatic performance at the town hall. It was the usual dinner for 12 or so, and included Anna, me, Robert, and the two opera ‘stars’ who had performed, and a number of other students. As the dinner progressed Robert spent almost all his time ‘courting’ the singers, making little jokes, giggling with them about this and that.
At first it was just amusing, but it went on and on, and I began to feel embarrassed for him because it seemed so shallow and obvious. It seemed so false personality. And then slowly I started to get angry, which naturally I did not express, what with being a ‘good student’ and all. I started to think, is there any way that he could be doing this as some sort of perverse object lesson for us? And my answer was no. He was just indulging himself. I looked at Anna, who was a good friend, and my discomfort must have been showing in my face, because she gave me one of those classic eye rolls she could do as if to say ‘yes, he’s really off the reservation this time.’ But her look also said ‘don’t say anything’.
Still, I didn’t set aside the possibility that his behavior at the dinner could have been some great lesson. Surely I must have misunderstood, and he was behaving this way intentionally so that we could see our expectations, etc, etc.
But no, in the end I don’t think I was wrong. Every time I dined with him after that he either seemed bored and distant and disengaged, or in some form of excited silliness like he had been that evening. In every case he seemed self-indulgent. I never saw him really teach in that setting.
Pretty sad.
Laura: This one’s for you. It’s another classic. You Youtube junkie you!
#22/58 My2bits
Rul_k Per_a recently left and is a trained psychologist, besides being a wonderful man. Even if he is not able to help you directly, he may have some good advice and recommendations.
Best wishes.
As Charles pointed out:
“In any case, there’s a big difference beteween a FoF member learning from the friction of being in the FoF and a jew learning from the friction of being in a concentration camp: the FoF member chose to be in the FoF, the jew didn’t choose to be in the camp.”
As Charles insists, FOF members chose to join, and never had to obey orders at the risk of being shot or beaten like the unfortunates in a concentration camp. I have never even heard of a physical threat in the FOF, has anyone? Unlike other cults like Osho, Siddha Yoga, Sai Baba…
It would be very easy to give in and blame the Nazís or an unjust God if you were their victim, so all the more praise to those who survived and actually improved in such horrific circumstances.
Given that we all volunteered with the aim to awaken or evolve or similar, it gives more weight to the exhortation to find positive and useful attitudes to gain from the experience rather than just create a past filled with negativity.
A lesson I learned from the FOF is that our attitudes are supported by the words we express. So the person who habitually complains about the weather will tend to be a negative person with destructive thought patterns, but the person who is grateful for the rain for his garden will tend to be more positive in general.
Thus if we try to not express negativity we can foster more positive attitudes, so long as we are congruent in that, and not just superficially masking the negativity.
So any hardship can be accepted, worked with and overcome.
Our internal world is like a garden – we can pull out the weeds (the useless or harmful aspects of our mechanics) and we can feed the flowers (the beautiful and useful aspects).
We can create a beautiful harmonious garden inside with this work, or we can just look at the neighbour’s garden and feel jealous about it, or complain about another neighbour’s messy garden.
These are just my thoughts though, correct me if they’re wrong… ;-)
Look at him – he’s a vile Pervert
Thanks Ames #49.
That’s an interesting memory about Stella.
One story I remember her relating (about “the secret”) maybe late 70’s / early 80s – was that on Stella questioning Robert Burton about what a male student had told her about having had sex with him, Robert right then summoned the student over to them together and asked the student in real time, to the effect “did you have sex with me?”
The student apparently stammered a bit and then told Stella no.
Much later Stella found that in fact he had – and that the little kabuki was a ruse or a form of intimidation by Robert of the student.
But it had worked for a while – she didn’t really understand what was going on until some years later.
Also, I wonder to this day what the older stately ladies knew – Rosemary McD, as mentioned above by Robert C: Anna Gold, and the others – they were very good camouflauge and gave the sense of tea sipping gentility that belied the underlying rapacity. Just lace? Or arsenic and lace?
To # 58, My2bits
There are a lot of us that left the Fellowship of Friends as far back as year or more ago. The majority of us are still in the neighborhood (in the foothills). You can call any one of us, we are here to listen, help, give advice etc. As someone suggested R_l_k P_rla is a lovely person as well as a trained qualified pychologist if that is what you feel you need. You are not alone friend – there are many of us, all at different stages of decompressing. Pick anyone you feel comfortable with. We are here.
If you are not in the foothills, there are many others around the world – check out the Greater Fellowship. Many friendly ears.
Good luck, and don’t be afraid to ask for help.
67 Real Reborn Turbot
Fantastic.
Whalerider, You can cry on my shoulder if you like and I will not think you less a man. I will think you more a human for it and that’s a good thing IMO. Crying is a great way to move out stuck emotional energy.
66
Vinnie, are you in sales? Brainwashing is brainwashing and most of us here already bought it and are not interested in renewing the contract.
Combining movement with the sequence – such as
timing one’s movements with each work ‘I’ when
walking – helps prevent interference from the
lower self. This is not the case, however,
during the four wordless breaths.
Love Robert
Combining movement with the sequence – such as
timing one’s movements with each “long be” intentionally enters your anus
– helps promote and prolong presence for the
lower self. This is not the case, however,
during the four wordless breaths it is useful to switch positions to avoid backaches and other problems related.
Love Rolex
http://www.gaydemon.com/dicktionary/anal_sex/
36 Robert C,
Yes,over time RB definitely changed the Fourth Way System,as I first experienced it when I joined, into some sort of ‘mess’ that played right into his abusive behaviour.
But it is necessary to remember that RB was very rarely ‘straight’-often he was on so drug or other supplied to him by the fof ‘pharmacy’.
So what can you expect from a ‘druged-out conscius being’?
40
WhaleRider
Hello, friend. I hope the friendship you find here will serve you well so you can set down your burden and relieve yourself and your family of that weight.
Maybe you feel responsible for continuing to carry it. Others are now here on this front and dedicated to righting the wrong, and maybe that means it can be a new day for you. Set it down. Maybe after all this time you don’t know you have a choice. Maybe you have an attachment to your pain. It would be a good place here to explore these questions. Meanwhile, you must pull yourself together so you can remember to take your jacket when you go out in the rain. At this time please do that if nothing more, WR.
With love to you and your family.
Turbot,
We’re deviating some from the current subject but I’ll follow your question.
W. Don’t be afraid of begging for what you really want. You might not get it but the Universe gives something else equally freeing.
Real Reborn Turbot
61 Elena
“I don’t want to rip your last two posts to shreds for the sake of it, but would like to take you up on what you seem to be implying, i.e that if you are nice, sincere, patient and loving you will be repaid by virtue of some higher law that says you will.
Do you really believe this? If so, on what basis?”
Oh yes, with all my heart. Thank you for asking before you shred the posts and hopefully not me in a later post. Thank you for trying to talk, please allow me to take back the harsh words from my post to you.
The only basis is my own experience. The difficult part is that you often have to experience so much pain before you are free from your wanting. If you look at us, we wanted consciousness. What we are experiencing now is the pain from that wanting. But the sincerity of that wanting, of the efforts we made will hopefully free us from that wanting and make us more human. Who knows. What I am very clear about is that I sincerely believed and worked for the Arc. The Arc and the Fellowship just separated one from the other. The School is not in a place but in human sharing.
In love relationships you might not get the person you wish to be with but if you’re sincere about your love the universe can grant you freedom from the wish. Don’t be afraid of wanting but then also don’t be afraid of suffering. Every suffering that one experiences is only as much as one is able to carry. Pride and humility stand at the end of that road. There’s joy in the fulfillment of a desire but there’s even greater joy in the freedom from it. When joy and suffering have been distilled, you are still there. You, without joy or suffering but with infinite gratitude.
The Universe, the Gods, your own work and karma, you name it what you wish but it happens and you yourself cannot make it happen. All you can do is be true to yourself. Know yourself, follow your desires like a hunter would follow a deer. Stay very close to them and never hurt the object of your desire who will never really allow you to posses it. It seems that is the key to becoming free, in honoring your desire with its own freedom.
I am a beginner Turbot, but sometimes I have been, I still hurt others. Can we allow for each other to speak freely without having to believe each word of what we say, or agree? Just listen? Question as you are doing? Wonder? Take sips of each others soul as if it were the finest wine? Not disqualify each other no matter how ridiculous I or another might sound? If you let me sit around you, that alone will heal me.
You’ve been much questioning the righteousness and having answers. Don’t be afraid of having sincere answers that you can then replace when you find more sincere ones. What we are most afraid of is our own beauty. Our own beauty is not our own but ours.
I tell you this things, I know them and yet my self worth is still hardly above cero from the last few years in the Fellowship. I am slowly recovering. Sometimes there’s happiness. It is no body’s fault but we’re all responsible. I am trying to not call to blame but to respond.
Thank you for sharing.
graduates 1
I remember conspiratorially informing a close *life* friend of the impending “worldwide depression” that was about to befall humanity… my friend listened to the entire stupid tale and casually informed me that I was in a cult run by a nut. I remember the feeling I had of a knowing superiority and experiencing a little sadness that my friend was not going to “get it.” I went on “remembering myself” with the expectation that the grand scheme of C influence was going to play out just as “The Teacher” predicted.”
this describes perfectly an experience with one of my “life-friends…” we grew up together, we were “best friends” (pause for reflection). after telling him this dark fairy-tale, we lost touch. alienating loved ones from “life” is part of the scheme, the brain-wash, it essentially erases personal history and creates total dependency on the organization.
laura 35
thanks for the video… it feels like a premonition of things to come for the fof…. like dust in the wind.
“My perception at present is that these people are “magicians”. Just look at the sheeps’ dazed-out eyes…”
ya, “these people” (osho, rb, and others of their ilk) might be described as “black” magicians, (there is a spectrum in this regard – from white, to many shades of grey and black). “hypnotists” is another way to describe “these people…” graduates gives a clear example in ironic fashion: “Now you have 1500 people counting toes on old paintings and imagining that they are “present”
vinnie 66
“Thus if we try to not express negativity we can foster more positive attitudes, so long as we are congruent in that, and not just superficially masking the negativity.”
vinnie,
this is part of the problem, when faced with a negative situation, it is only natural and healthy to recognize it as such and in some fashion to “express negativity” — or in the case here at the blog to expose the negative situation. imo, this is the way to “transform negativity” as we used to say. to ignore it, to repress and suppress by “non-expression of negative emotions” is a tool of mind-control and brain-washing. suppression is not transformation.
you say:
“So any hardship can be accepted, worked with and overcome.”
this sounds like the “martyr complex” that is fostered by the fof… “us against the world,” right? it’s true that life does have hardships and we do have to work to overcome, that seems to me to be what the blog is about. maybe if instead of using the word “accepted” you substitute the concept embodied by the word “recognized.” but based on what you’ve written previously, you DO recognize the problem, and yet you continue to defend it… that’s what is so baffling.
you say:
“As Charles insists, FOF members chose to join, and never had to obey orders at the risk of being shot or beaten like the unfortunates in a concentration camp. I have never even heard of a physical threat in the FOF, has anyone?”
according to the accounts of many survivors of the horrors of concentration camps, including the unfortunates who have been subjected to torture at gitmo and other similar situations happening right now, the physical abuse is not as damaging as the psychological damage. the human body can recover from or adapt to physical damage… it’s the psychology (the soul) of the person that continues to suffer for years to come. one of the brain-washing control mechanisms used by the fof is the threat of “eternal damnation,” and loss of one’s soul… if one buys into this hogwash, i can’t think of a better form of coercion… there is no barbed wire fence require for those who believe it. in a sense we do it to ourselves because of what we believe, that’s part of the nature of “sleep” (hypnosis).
Dear Graduates, elena, veronicapoe, across the river, and xena:
Thank you for your posts. You are my lifeline right now.
My mother, who has gone through a divorce from my father, also thinks I should get a lawyer, if not for anything else, to strengthen my ego and consider plan B. My parent’s divorce is another facet of my life that adds a layer of emotion to my situation. My family broke up just before I joined the Fellowship, so I look to you as my family. Mediation is not a bad idea either.
My wife claims there is no one else. I have stopped being weepy in front of her because that indeed shuts her down. I’m just weepy when she’s not around, which is the part of my inner world that I am sharing with you. Our couple therapist is advocating I take a passive approach since my wife feels I have been too domineering and controlling, which is partially due to me and partially due to her attitude toward men in general, for which I think she gets lots of support from her women friends and from our female therapist. So far the passive approach is giving her space to ‘man’ifest her independence more and she appears happier, but I fear that will strengthen the personalities within her that want out. I also sense she may be pulling me to take the active approach as I always have and make my move, thus absolving her of guilt.
Here is a situation where I don’t want to act out of anger or revenge. There has been no play of crime in our relationship. But to be honest with myself, I feel conflicted in that my deeper needs for spiritual connection are not there despite the intimacy being recently shut off. I am also mad at myself for letting my needs go unmet for so long. Plus, there are kids involved. So acting out of my self interest is problematic.
Yet, here I am calling out to others on this blog to face the truth, take action, and divorce themselves from Robert and the Fellowship!
It is clear to me that at the end of the day, we must do what is best for our children and as a civilized society in the case of the Fellowship, the children of others.
my2bits 58
I only wish to address the last part of your question which has to do with those needing therapy and don’t know that they need it.
The more I ponder this question, the more I realize that “only” is quite inappropriate. My mind wants to take off on many and various streets. Clearly I am restricted to addressing myself and some general entity called “my2bits” who is sounding relatively balanced at this time and who at the same time is maybe hinting at some despair and/or confusion.
It is natural to be a little dizzy when getting off a wild roller-coaster ride and the longer the ride has been, the worse I would expect the disorientation to be. First off, just being on this blog-ride is enough to cause anyone to be dizzy, especially if one had a stomach-full prior to getting on.
This is where it is good to have someone to lean on, at least long enough to regain the ability to walk relatively straight. We are all different. Yes that can be kept. Yes it is a thought-addiction. The point I am making here is that we are creatures of habit, addicts of sorts. Some habits were ok while on the ride but now are not. So how to tell the useful from the not useful?
As always the goal is the number one consideration, the future, the destination. Personally, my programming is and has been such that I find it frustrating to make attempts at discovering my goals. I followed my nose to the “school” and followed it “out” and as my mother always told me, “You don’t know what is hanging down from your nose”. That is a rough translation but means that unsuspected things can happen in the future. For me, that is common, for others, not so common. I cannot know here if my2bits falls in this category or not. However it surely does apply to some and it is important.
So number one. There is nothing like a vacation to regain one’s sense of “where am I and where do I want to go?”
By working on this question the likelyhood of falling for the same old line can be avoided. It makes sense if I walk away from one trip with all the same addictions or predispositions, I will no doubt find myself years later in the same place. We see this all the time in relationships. Sometimes this is freferred to as baggage.
Now this may sound like analogies, but there is an argument being made in some circles, the quantum ones, which theorizes that these habits are physical, that they are based on neurological adaptations. For now, I buy it. It explains a lot. I don’t like my source, but what the heck, it’s the best I have found so far. Enough of that, let’s not go there.
So we’re on a vacation and the aim is to come up with a longer term destination. If we don’t, we run the danger of depression and since that sucks it is clearly worth the effort.
Again I am covering many bases (baseball for possibilities) due to not knowing who I am addressing. For example I have seen that some exers decided that they needed to go back for more education in order to enter their field of choice. Twenty or thirty years of alienation from “life” can lead to shortages in the qualifications especially if one has been focusing on vineyards or wine-making and they are no longer in the picture. Again as we have seen in this blog, sometimes this experience actually has been relevant to a future career. Whatever!
To recapitulate, we first get our bearings and decide on a goal for the immediate future. In doing this it is necessary to focus on positive thoughts. The negative ones help us in knowing what is not wanted, but a conscious effort needs to be made to maintain the positive focus. This is extremely important to maintain a healthy momentum.
All of the above applies physically, psychologically, and/or spiritually. The steps which follow now almost do not need to be mentionned because they will then become obvious. Surprisingly, there was truth to that old adage about the journey of a thousand miles….etc. Allons!
I wish to make an observation regarding the blog. IMO, the last hundred or so posts clearly demonstrate the necessity of developing a sense of direction. Some of these posts are by far the most intelligent, the most promising, and the most rewarding of them all. They have covered so much ground and just when the brass ring comes within reach, just then, splat! I am sure that those to whom this applies know who they are. They seem to not want to pack up the furniture and hit the road, so they start kicking and screaming again. This is what I mean by an addiction. Now I am moving my moving little ass off this page and leave you all with love that is so powerful that it will quickly dry any tears which happen to fall on my keyboard. Must be the a/c. Better submit without edit, Cheers!
I am very weary of therapy these days.
I did some EMDR but a therapist who you trust is crucial. L-n- I is also a source of info for therapy.
For me going through my deepest issue by myself by doing EFT and deep fast breathing and talk to several friends, is my way of doing “Therapy” I have grieved, cried, was angry, spoke with the absolute and whatever…..9 months it took and the sun looks brighter again…and still I am not there and yet I am.
Listening to tapes of Hicks, Adja, Nisagradatta Byron Katie and Harrison.
By best therapist was he who said that, I myself, the stillness in me, when I am quiet is my best teacher/ therapist. Though when I tell him how much he has helped me over the last 5 years he said that it was all in me.
I am weary of a therapist who “knows more then me” That is part of my hurt with Robert Burton.
I GAVE UP MY ‘SELF WILL” AND WAS OFTEN NOT TRUE TO MYSELF.
Thinking about this brings up again a flood of emotions. Most people who will leave now will go through a mourning process that will take up to a year or more. That is how life is. TIME DOES ALSO A GREAT JOB.
There are many possibilities in Nevada City like non violent communication groups and sat sangs.
Good luck.
Dear Whale rider.
You say: but I fear that will strengthen the personalities within her that want out.
Do not worry and give and love…if she goes or not that is beyond you. Do what you can and be the best you are. Be your own best friend. As long as you both seemed to go to therapy that seems a good sign to me.
Do not get in the sibling rivalry with her female friends and therapist. Give it up.
Love yourself, embrace, look at the sun or the clouds. Love your children.
Which mother can resist a man who loves his children…..
Real love and does things with them…
Most women I know and are divorced, the big complaint is that he did not care or showed his care and love for “her”children.
Just a new angle.
77 ‘ton
“it’s the psychology (the soul) of the person that continues to suffer for years to come. one of the brain-washing control mechanisms used by the fof is the threat of “eternal damnation,” and loss of one’s soul… if one buys into this hogwash, i can’t think of a better form of coercion… there is no barbed wire fence require for those who believe it. in a sense we do it to ourselves because of what we believe, that’s part of the nature of “sleep” (hypnosis).”
Remember that story Gurdjieff told about the boy who was placed inside a circle and couldn’t get out of it? I used to wonder what that was all about, thinking it was some form of magic. Now I just think he was talking about this — they tell him, if you leave the circle, you’ll go to hell. Then he’s stuck inside forever, or until he wakes up to the BS.
66 Vinnie the Fish
“Our internal world is like a garden – we can pull out the weeds (the useless or harmful aspects of our mechanics) and we can feed the flowers (the beautiful and useful aspects).”
I know that you are talking about attitudes and psychology, but in my experience it never stopped there. It was always at least as much about externals — about turning all of us into uniform “good student” ‘bots. On the one hand, we were told “You don’t have to be a perfect machine,” and in the next sentence we were told to keep our house so clean it looked like no one even lived there. Of course we were expected to be perfect machines — that dressed alike, talked alike, listened to the same “approved” music. It makes me want to puke to even remember it. You can’t see how deeply it permeates the atmosphere until you step out of it.
66 Vinnie the Fish
“Our internal world is like a garden – we can pull out the weeds (the useless or harmful aspects of our mechanics) and we can feed the flowers (the beautiful and useful aspects).”
God, has this metaphor been driven into the ground!
My question is: How do we know the difference?
Useless=harmful=mechanical/asleep
Useful=beautiful=conscious/awake
A harsh judgement from our Father/protector/persecutor.
Hey, Daddy, look at me: I’m good, I’m worthy, I’ve gotten rid of all my unacceptable bad parts. By a simple act of my own will I have made myself into a creature of goodness and light. Will you love me now?
At the moment, I water my weeds, for they teach me much more about my true self than my carefully cultivated flowers ever could.
Re the therapy question . . . it can be helpful and can shorten the time it might take to integrate an experience on one’s own.
A therapist who has just left the FoF may be a wonderful person and therapist, but might not be the best choice for someone in the same boat. A neutral third party with a relevant background and experience wouldn’t be dealing with their own issues with the same intense situation.
I’d ask around for people with experience working with cult survivors. If that’s not an option, there are licensing boards and local associations that could help. In any case, I’d also talk to the person on the phone and get a sense of them before making an appointment. Some therapists will offer one free get acquainted session, to see if the chemistry works.
And . . . as some have already said . . . let yourself lean on your friends!
84 Kid Shelleen
At the moment, I water my weeds, for they teach me much more about my true self than my carefully cultivated flowers ever could.
————————
I discovered that I have an inner blonde and an inner Betty. The blonde needs to have a little edge in her life or she runs amok and causes trouble, and Betty will leave the house wearing black shoes and white socks with her shirt buttoned incorrectly. This is not meant to malign anyone named Betty — it’s just the name that appeared.
Cultivating Blonde and Betty has been one of the healthiest things I’ve done. The carefully cultivated flowers got all the attention for too many decades, and it wasn’t a balanced situation.
Dear whale rider, Women Who Run with the Wolves might be a helpful read for your wife, just in case she is not familiar with it yet.
This book has been very helpful to me in the years since I left the school, and I think it can carry a healing influence in the lives of many sisters (especially you Fellowship girls!) Inside its stories one can encounter the larger patterns and archetypal forces that rule our lives. Some of the issues explored are love, rage, betrayal, creativity, sexuality, fogiveness, spirituality, independence, depletion, community and intuition.
It’s a long deep read!
http://homestar.org/bryannan/estes.html
WasKathleenW
right on!
“Thus if we try to not express negativity we can foster more positive attitudes, so long as we are congruent in that, and not just superficially masking the negativity.”
Vinnie (the Minnie)
1. you seem to be a paying member of the fellowship of friends
2. desire to appear to be “working” with the non-expression of negativity. Note: the part of that sentence that should be stressed is “desire to appear”
3. you choose to look like you are working with that 4th way exercise (even tho fof is no longer a 4th way group and does not address 4th way ideas at all).
4. you choose to work with the idea in an amazingly simplistic and superficial way
Therefore I would suggest you take your own advise in the quoted section above. Go forth and do your ‘work’! And be happy! Do you work much with the sequence? and the numbered work Is? Why are you here on this blog with people who you can’t engage with other than to express your negativity about?
When you are ready, many voices on this blog indicate ways the writers have wrestled with and benefited from the esoteric meaning of that part of the 4th way (and it is part of many ways).
(Guess I’m in a “Blond” mood!)
whale rider
PS did you read my post at #20-386 about Skeleton Woman?
Re: Therapy.
As I stated earlier in this blog-o-matic, just wait ’til you hear yourself explain your deeply held Fellowship beliefs to a qualified, impartial therapist! I think you’ll find out rather quickly how much of it you believe.
Watch one, this one’s a heartbreaker.
Only for intensive bodyworkers.
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=otx49Ko3fxw
I meant watch out
Dear Laura:
You are my hero! Thank you for Skeleton Woman. What a beautiful read. I’m going to pass it on to my wife, and I am going out to get that book and ‘whole parent/whole child’ too right now.
Dear Another Name:
Thanks. You’re so right, kids are so important. What a gift. I will heed your advice.
Uno, thanks for sharing. We are becoming more human every day.
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=mVkSdf_AMWM
WhaleRider
At the risk of appearing callous, let me offer some generic gratuitous (unasked for) advice based on long personal observation and circumstance.
You may not be married yet. What I’ve come to understand is that real fusion often takes place in couples sometimes (rarely) prior to the wedding and often several years or even decades (and even children) after the wedding. Think “seven year itch.” That a marriage becomes real typically after both parties negotiate a very big interval – typically what the real interval to their collective real possible marriage is. Often this interval seems insurmountable.
Further, that by no means exclusive, male emotional immaturity is often a primary cause.
Given your description of your relationship, it may be that if you are to have a marriage that there will be a lot of work and pain to find each other again on a higher more equal level. From a distance it seems as if you have described it.
That it may involve not words or understanding but a process – meaning taking a lot longer than it seems like it should. That you may need to let her go in order to even have the possibility of finding her again at a higher level. Because you are going to find that at the deepest level you will be forced to value (re-value?) the person that she has become. And this new her is going to have to become convinced of your new re-valuation – and see if the new her values the new you in the same way.
That, though sometimes useful for a time, counselors can frequently do more harm than good.
Finally, you may be forced to ask whether it is worth having true intimacy with a life-long friend and companion, or whether it is better not to have to endure the payment in the face of uncertainty. And the payment can be high – it may involve gaining unexpected true maturity, and bearing what seems unbearable at present.
Some thoughts – if they apply.
“Don’t join false sects!”
“What? Don’t enjoy forced sex?”
‘ton,
I remember you and your lovely wife. It truly pains me to learn that Robert came between you and your childhood sweetheart (pun intended), and deprived you of your child.
To have experienced the full spectrum of human emotion, from those heady, naive days at Renaissance to hopelessness on the streets of San Francisco (as Duncan did) and come through it all with the strength and character you now demonstrate is truly profound.
Thanks for adding your timeless voice to this blog. I salute you both.
I’m reminded of a line from the Super Tramp (sorry) song “It’s Raining Again”:
“Come on you little fighter, and get back up again, fill your heart again.”
Tim
Thanks, friends (Opus 111, flying free, Another Name, Kid Shelleen, and Renald) for your useful and encouraging thoughts about post-FoF therapy.
55
Well, good grief, not too surprising since you’re a Lawyer!
Word!
Vinnie, vinnie,
Vinnie (“In any case, there’s a big difference beteween a FoF member learning from the friction of being in the FoF and a jew learning from the friction of being in a concentration camp: the FoF member chose to be in the FoF, the jew didn’t )
When I joined the fellowship of friends I thought I joined a group of people which aim was to be present and help each other in this aim. People who were trying to form a spiritual community….After the first years the CRAP came in “ predictions, the fear aspect of leaving the School, the increase in donations and the SEX questions. The hurts, the pains….the lies. Vinnie the lies, i joined a big lie…It hurts.
Vinnie: A lesson I learned from the FOF is that our attitudes are supported by the words we express. So the person who habitually complains about the weather will tend to be a negative person with destructive thought patterns, but the person who is grateful for the rain for his garden will tend to be more positive in general.
Yes, these lessons we could have learned within 2-3 years. How to be more present too and how to be independent. Instead we were milked for years and kept “STUPID”, worked my butt off and kept paying and got more and more in the streaks of my so called Teacher of which I am still paying now in many ways.
Can you not see that the fellowship is holding a carrot in front of you, years and years and years…?
Yes, admitting this is very painful and will be a long process so buffering is maybe your way now.
I never thought I would end up like the Germans after the second world war.
“Ich habe es nicht gewust.” ( I did not know)
Vinnie: So any hardship can be accepted, worked with and overcome.
Time will tell you Vinnie, Time will tell you.
Vinnie: We can create a beautiful harmonious garden inside with this work, or we can just look at the neighbour’s garden and feel jealous about it, or complain about another neighbour’s messy garden.
All the gardens are gardens, it is what is. Comparing is FALSE PERSONALITY, dear Vinnie. A lesson learned easily in a month in the fellowship of friends for the fast ones….
Wrong? Look inside yourself and see what your own teacher has to tell you, your conscience, your silence. It is all in you and thinking you need a teacher is :DEPENDENCY, DEPENDENCY.
Hope you grow up and be your own garden. Hope one day you can be a garden for others and support and help them instead of being a “wise guy”.
Good luck for now and “sleep well”.
Dear Whale rider and Ton and Others.
Please feel free to see you inner dark spots
Let them be
Watch
Do not cling on to them
See them as an interesting stranger
Just watch
Do not worry
Or dependent
On other thoughts
Or what they think of you
Be what you are
In your inner silence
Go there and let that inner silent voice
Speak through you
Be that what you are
Love that what you are
Dance with that what you are
Embrace that what you are
Your son will be so proud of you
And will have a jumpstart in his life
Heal yourself and so you heal your son and your family line…
O friends I stop…..
And let Diana Ross sing you a song
Reach out and touch
Somebodys hand
Make this world a better place
If you can
Reach out and touch
Somebodys hand
Make this world a better place
If you can
(JUST TRY)
Take a little time out of your busy day
To give encouragement
To someone whos lost the way
(JUST TRY)
Or would I be talking to a stone
If I asked you
To share a problem thats not your own
We can change things if we start giving
Why dont you
Reach out and touch
Somebodys hand
Make this world a better place
If you can
Reach out and touch
Somebodys hand
Make this world a better place
If you can
(JUST TRY)
If you see an old friend on the street
And hes down
Remember his shoes could fit your feet
(JUST TRY)
Try a little kindness youll see
Its something that comes very naturally
We can change things if we start giving
Why dont you
Reach out and touch
Why dont you (why dont you)
Reach out and touch somebodys hand
Reach out and touch
Somebodys hand
Make this world a better place
If you can
Reach out and touch
Somebodys hand
Make this world a better place
If you can
Love from my heart to you all
My2Bits relative to WasKathleenW’s comment.
R.P. may be too close to it himself?
There is a resource in the Bay Area, the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology. They may be able to offer services or recommend helpful counseling? A long time former student, C.R. works there…
http://www.itp.edu/resources/counselservices.cfm
Good luck…
Bass
84 Kid Shellen,
‘At the moment, I water my weeds, for they teach me much more about my true self than my carefully cultivated flowers ever could’.
Right-on,right-on,right-on!!!!
This is the thing-the fof came out with the same propoganda
message as so called ‘organized religion’,i.e. ‘if you are a good person you will go to heaven-be bad and experience eternal damnation’.
‘Useful/useless’,’mechanical/conscious’ are words, NOT ABSOLUTE DEFINITIONS OF BEHAVIOUR.
How can I know truth?By experiencing un-truth.I am the determinant of what is useful for me,and as well what is useless.
My conscience is a child,and maybe it can grow,but certainly not by being forced into a ‘formula’.
To Vinnie the Minnow,
because you get slammed no matter what and maybe you don’t know why, and also because this blog can be like a peculiar family that I think about at the strangest times :- )
========================================================
Vinnie, I don’t think you understand your ‘audience’ here. In fourth way terms it’s the wrong triad for you to attempt teaching on this blog, except inadvertantly by demonstrating your dependence on the FOF form, a natural condition of that affiliation that is deeply understood here by all. This is a learning place for you or nothing at all.
The baiting posts aside, you’ve posted some sincere comments here IMO and I don’t think you keep coming back just to irritate. Hmmm? Your experiences in the Fellowship are tainted now by all you’ve learned through this blog, but the good news is that you’ve also learned here that when you leave, you leave with what is your own, although you might not recognize that right away.
It’s ‘real’ out here and nobody has an obligation to address you. It’s a place where you’re welcome, though, and hopefully your presence here will prove worthwhile.
RE: Therapy
I mentioned in a previous post that since leaving the lesser-fellowship in ’83, i’ve spent years and countless hours in various types of therapy which eventually lead me to work in the therapeutic field. i went through an intensive 3 year training in shin-tai shiatsu; it’s traditional zen shiatsu incorporating cranio-sacral technique and theory. i’ve done less intensive workshops and trainings in other modalities as well — breathwork, chi-kung, aikido, tai chi (yes, i think of the martial arts as bodywork) but i return to my shin-tai roots as far as my practice goes. i worked out of a local chiropractic office for several years, currently i do a little bodywork in my home and i do therapeutic work at the school where i teach.
when i left the lesser fof, my first experiences were of the “talk-therapy” variety. i found it to be useful for a while, there was a sense of support and a general catharsis in the process, and i gained a lot of insight through analysis and self-reflection. ( i would say here that talk therapy can be useful but it may not be for everyone, i eventually moved away from a strictly talk-based approach to other modes). i suppose there’s something to be said for the “objective” analysis of a highly trained and educated “paid professional,” the analytic approach in this case can give insights one would probably not otherwise come to… but imo, as much or more in terms of support and catharsis can be gained from a caring, non-judgemental friend who you can really, truly open up to on an emotional level.
later, when i lived in atlanta, i went to a jungian analyst ad did dreamwork, “sandplay” and “drama therapy” all very interesting and useful work. later, i found the writing of wilhelm reich and “ate it up.” that lead me into something called “bioenergetics” which recognizes and works with the continuum of body / somatic processes and mind / psychology. (alexander lowen was a more recent proponent of reich’s work and he wrote a wonderful book called “JOY: surrender to the body”). from doing this work, i realized the importance of reconnecting with my physical nature, i know i went through many years of being cut off from experiencing visceral feelings / emotions, living too much “in the head” as we tend to do in this culture (not to mention the trauma of the fof experience and the difficult transition back to “life”), this has an effect of alienation in relation to the body and “self”… and further effects in relating to others, society, environment etc.
if you begin to explore the therapeutic marketplace, you will discover a multitude of approaches, and it really is a matter of finding what works for you. i know that for a lot of us here who have put our trust into that thing we called “the teacher,” only later to realize that we have been raped and burned as a result, there are going to be major obstacles and issues concerning trust. seeking out a therapist who represents an “authority figure” on some level, to open our soul when trust has been damaged is a difficult thing to do, it takes courage… to go through with it might be an exercise in learning to trust oneself again. you live and learn and if you decide to go the therapeutic route, look at it as an exploration and adventure into your self. in this regard PLANET MEDICINE by richard grossinger… in two volumes might be of interest if you are exploring different modalities.
all the best and well wishes on your journey.
All the Fellowship women should wake up and escape Bob’s school of fags:
a musical offering…
it’s o.k. to move.
c’est la vie.
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=ShzhsPD3K0E
I have been following the posts on this blog for the last week or so after accidentally coming across it through Wiki. Since leaving the FOF, sometime in 1999 I have always tried to keep an eye on the goings on within the FOF. I was somewhat surprised, although perhaps I shouldn’t have been, in yet another name change and more surprisingly in a move away from its original 4th way “nature”. I’m not too clear in exactly what way it has changed and would be grateful if someone can point me to either a previous post or source that summarises, simply curious…
Whilst pondering whether or not to post myself I couldn’t workout what I could contribute or even how, as I really haven’t used this format before (except for one post 495 which seemed to take days in moderation).
So, here goes with a start…
I joined the FOF in 1989 in London. Four years or so after joining I moved to Renaissance, staying with Charles T at first and working in the Winery Office. Six months after arriving, like many others, my marriage deteriorated further and I was soon part of the RB travelling show. I was part of this for around 2 years and could relate stories of sexual impropriety et al, but you have read most of it already and other than how I personally related to it, the stories seem pretty much the same.
After leaving Apollo and eventually returning home, I directed a centre in Scotland for about a year. Moving away, whilst still meeting up with RB in various cities including London, Paris and my favourite city of all Rome, I had space to think from a better part of myself. At that time it became very clear to me that RB and his (very partial) system were not the real deal.
I feel there were many examples of actions taken by RB that clearly exposed this, although at the time any oddity was easily quashed and supported by appropriate associative thoughts. I mean surely lack of sexual control, apparent inability to function and manifest independent of at least some external stimuli, was justifiable…for God sake he’s conscious…isn’t he, surely this doesn’t apply to him, surely 2000 intelligent people cannot be wrong, surely there are reasons I just cannot understand for his actions? We are told that conscience is buried and I feel the actions of RB confirms that his is truly buried…actions speak louder and all that.
I left as quietly as I had arrived. This was my journey and past experience had shown me that any amount of rejection of his way, on my part, would be met with a sympathetic acknowledgement that I had simply lost my way…at least that’s how I have justified not expressing my doubt.
WhaleRider, I feel for you.
Another Name, thank you for your heartelt posts.
Just a reminder, from page 21:
“Burton will be appearing for a ‘teaching’ dinner on 3rd October, [by popular demand £!], at Bistro Aix, French Bistro. situated in Tottenham Lane in Crouch End.
If you can stomach his performance, you will probably find the Beef Stew sublime, the Guinea Fowl, just perfect, the Duck to die for and the deserts works of art in both appearance and taste. . . . . However I’m pretty sure that the entertainment will be more unbelievable than the cuisine!”
Is anyone going to check out this theatre production? Hope it’s a good gig. Or maybe someone has already changed the reservations? Speaking of good gigs, how about this little London band? (BTW, I did see them live and I think Paul Simonon is still one of the sexiest men alive – sorry, I needed to share that)
Moving uptown
But I know it’s the place I should be
The streets are all quiet
And no one saying nothing at all
Then the sun came out of he clouds
And charged up the satellites
We all got our energy back and started talking again
It’s the blessed routine
For The Good, The Bad And The Queen
Just moving out of dreams with no physical wounds at all
Don’t kick the crack heads of the green
They are a political party
And the kids are never going to be tired
Cos everything has ever so slightly come
Everything is so slightly come
Everything is so slightly come
Ooh
Ooh
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=4595983
Folks,
Try this on for size. If you don’t know Ron Sexsmith, you should.
Allan S
great to meet you here, I have been looking for you
Laura
is that really you? Didn’t recognise you from your posts. They have really made me laugh (well some) and now a smile as well. I remember once getting a very sweet letter from you that said you hoped we would meet sometime in the future this was always my hope also. Could never have imagined it would be here!
what a true kodak moment
laurao@fastwebnet.it
Write me and I’ll send you an invitation to the Greater Fellowship community where we can catch up.
Dear Old FOF:
Thank you for taking that risk in your post. You are wise and speak the truth; we may not have been married yet until we get through this interval, if we do. I am taking things as slowly as I can.
She has not been using the word love in our emails to each other the past week, nor returning my “I love you’s” with anything but silence. This morning on her way off to work, I looked her in the eyes and asked her, “Is there any love in there for me today?” She simply said, “No”. It felt like an ice pick to my heart. Luckily, the heart muscle is the toughest muscle in the body. I am amazed that mine is still beating after that.
Dear Alan S:
Welcome home. It’s good to have you here. There’s plenty of room here for everyone. Stay a while.
WhaleRider. How can anyone not sypmathise with your situation? You are not the first one to fall in love or have a partner fall out of love with you before you fall out of love with them. Welcome to planet earth. Life is still pretty brutal despite its pleasurable compensations.
What on earth did you expect? As with most heart rending disapointments it is the foolishness of naive expectation rather than any injustice that is the main cause of suffering.
Maybe bringing your expectations more in line with reality is the place to start.
Dear ‘I see’ said the blind man:
Thanks for your post and clarity of vision! There is a method to my madness. My expectation is that instead of protecting me from the truth, she would tell me the truth. She finally did today. That’s the reality I want to start from. Now I know not to expect something from nothing.
The pain I’m feeling today is like the day after a good workout. It’s not pleasant, but it makes me feel alive.
105 ‘ton
Re Therapy:
from doing this work, i realized the importance of reconnecting with my physical nature, i know i went through many years of being cut off from experiencing visceral feelings / emotions, living too much “in the head” as we tend to do in this culture (not to mention the trauma of the fof experience and the difficult transition back to “life”), this has an effect of alienation in relation to the body and “self”… and further effects in relating to others, society, environment etc.
—————————————————
I’ll confirm ‘ton’s suggestion to look into body-oriented therapies as well as talk therapy.
Experiences, feelings, memories, etc. are in the body as well as the mind. Sometimes talk therapy is enough but sometimes it takes a person just so far, and the rest can’t be gotten at by talking. The body must let go too. Some people do well with bodywork and no talk therapy.
I can recommend Rosen Method because I’ve been a practitioner for many years, but there are many good ones. ‘ton made some suggestions, and I’ve heard that Alexander Technique is good, although I have no personal experience with it. A nice side effect is that physical pain relief often happens as well. It’s a lot of work holding all that stuff in/down.
If you choose to go this route, be prepared to have intense feelings arise that may surprise you. It can be unsettling, but it’s worth it because once they are out in the light, they no longer have the same unconscious hold on your life.
ton
It’s interesting that one of may major arguments with RB revolved around your’s and M’s drama. M. told me and my wife (at the time) about RB’s request to terminate the pregnancy. I was profoundly struck by the effect it was having on M. I told her I thought it was lunacy to take this kind of advice.
Somehow L.T found out about MY advice to M. and approached my wife (L. knew better than to even approach me about anything, so she took the cowards way and tried to intimidate my wife into having me stay out of her business).
I went to RB and stated that L.T. was not to even approach my wife again or I would be gone the next day (of course at that time it carried some weight because I was involved deeply in RB’s whim and fad of the moment). Then we got around to discussing abortion advice (and his current pet project- advising women who got pregnant to have a hysterectomy so they wouldn’t have to worry about those unsightly and distracting pregnancies. I told him he simply couldn’t throw that kind of shit out there. Of course his pat retort was “when your level of being changes, you’ll see that I’m right”. What an asshole. All that, and convincing couples to give away children that they had “out of FOF”.
I can feel by blood pressure rising even now.
whalerider
If I had any practical advice it would be to not write anything off. Change is possible. We really do not know the future . We may not control many aspects of our lives but you are not unique in having emotional wounds. If your therapist is too detached and not really providing support find another one. If you have not done so and are able consider working with a LCSW or MFT as a couple.
Such an event as the breakup of a Marriage would definitely be classified as a “Crossroads” in ones life a time of transitions and new possibilities in System terms an “interval” and in terms of the Marriage as Si-DO. The end of something and the beginning of something new.
This itself provides one answer. This interval needs an outside shock.
There may not be specific groups for “victims of false conscious teachers” ( other than the BLOG and The Greater Fellowship) but there are many forms of 12 step programs ( in larger metropolitan areas) and other “support” groups like “sex and love addicts anonymous” (SLA) and “incest survivors anonymous” ( ISA) that are usually free. If you make minor adjustments to your “story” these can be a useful resource.
I offer these possibilities because For many sexual relations with Robert is more like incest , rape or prostitution then consensual sex. It is clearly a situation in which trust and openness are abused. It is not the homosexuality that is negative it is the warped emotions that corrupt the natural positive sex drive and leave the “victim” wounded, shamed , and damaged.
The attitude in the FOF of blaming the victims, refusing to see and accept the truth about the abusiveness, the sense of isolation and confusion created are all the same as what occurs around incest in a family system. After working with many individuals recovering from Alcohol and Drug use I have found a surprising large percentage come from families in which physical and emotional abusiveness, drug and alcohol use and incest are common. (dysfunctional family systems)
John Bradshaw has done much work around negative family dynamics and his book ” On the Family” offers much that is of value. It was used as a text in a course I took on family dynamics. I tend to think in terms of “the system” so to me what he describes is a process or octave of healing that involves using a “true personality” to “reparent oneself” and heal the “child within” (essence).
The FOF cultivated a sense of intellectual superiority to “life” which is entirely false. While FOF members stagnated in an enviorment that fostered intellectual and emotional shallowness “life” has produced much in the area of practical transformational psychology that is useful IE it works.
I have said that I still think in terms of the “System” one theory I have verified is that an interval such as you are describing is an opportunity for change. I believe An important factor in why and how 12 step groups work and are successful is because they intervene at a Si-Do interval. One in which the options are often, prison, institution’s or death. Individuals participate because they feel they have no other choice. This apparently creates a “right triad”.
The most important action you can take is to realize you need help and find a way to get it. The blog is one tool, therapy another, a support group yet another, there is no one answer.
I do the I-Ching at certain times. The idea is that it indicates right action in a specific situation. Sometimes right action seems to be “doing nothing” such as waiting for a bus, you wait. Another time you must run and catch it or even take a cab because you missed the Bus. Right action is very specific to a situation.
It may seem contradictory but from one perspective it is all on you as far as seeking, finding and using what help is available. From another you can do nothing but try and be present .
Sometimes situations seem difficult because we put a lot together and it seems like one big black cloud. It can be very valuable to take an inventory. I say this in the same sense that a store counts it stock and separates items into different categories. One idea is that There are only 7 problems. Health, transportation, housing, Family, sex and relationships, job, and finances. It can be useful to separate them and try and deal with them individually. Some we can address simply like “go to the dentist”, others may need to be put off. The point is to not mix everything together so it becomes unmanageable.
Leaving a cult like the Fellowship and trying to return to “normal” is a process. Like other forms of recovery one of the “gifts of recovery” is that you have issues. Whoever you were, whatever problems you did not deal with before being in the FOF, no matter how effectively you may have thought you avoided these “issues” you have to deal with them.
No matter what the future brings you bring your past with you. I still try and practice self remembering. I have found that for me dealing with the past is part of this process. It is not possible to “remember oneself” and deny any part of who one is or any part of what one experienced. It requires “seeing” and accepting the positive and negatives aspects of everything we can bring to it. Future growth depends on healing and that depends on becoming more “whole”.
Sorry if this sounds like just general platitudes. Sometimes the truth is that way something simple we already know that is just difficult to live through and do.
Whalerider: Back off! Do not use the word “love” in your wife’s vicinity. It is a handgrenade.
O my God Bruce….
This Robert advice about abortions and hysterectomies was/ is on the level of Hitler Gemany….. O my God….
I feel for you and your blood pressure
I feel, this needs to end….O my God.
The world needs to know that Robert Burton and maybe others have lunatic ideas and might carry it out…
O my God. Bruce, I think of you and know that your heart is soooo strong.
My heart goes out to you…..and all the others.
Why don’t we not move Robert to the Ming house with a few who like to satisfy him…some bisexuals who do seem to enjoy it….
Make the property into a spiritual retreat a healing place, a non profit organization and use all what we are doing to make this world a better place….
Where children can flourish and be what they are… With good health care , part time jobs and joy, joy, joy…..
Am I too naive or is this because my eyes are full of tears and this was what I wanted….many years ago, a loving community where we would bring out the best in each other?
Thanks Bruce….Thanks….
Former student says:
I offer these possibilities because For many sexual relations with Robert is more like incest , rape or prostitution then consensual sex. It is clearly a situation in which trust and openness are abused. It is not the homosexuality that is negative it is the warped emotions that corrupt the natural positive sex drive and leave the “victim” wounded, shamed , and damaged.
The attitude in the FOF of blaming the victims, refusing to see and accept the truth about the abusiveness, the sense of isolation and confusion created are all the same as what occurs around incest in a family system. After working with many individuals recovering from Alcohol and Drug use I have found a surprising large percentage come from families in which physical and emotional abusiveness, drug and alcohol use and incest are common. (dysfunctional family systems)
————————————————————————–
woooh, right on and I verified the dynamic in family relaltions and the continuation in the next generations….
How can we stop this chain of abuse? How can we support AND HELP THE NEXT GENERATIONS….
Linda T. Says:
March 5th, 2007 at 8:15 am
‘only following orders,’ followed by,
‘be,hold,read,back,read,BE!’
What is our responsibility to act re: fof?
At what point does knowledge become responsibility?
We have either personally experienced, or knowledge of what the fof hides and supports.
At what point does knowledge and responsibility become a requirement for action?
In post part 2(1) I listed a blueprint for action that included proactive
What is our responsibility to act re: fof?
Good question.
1. Distribute information…to others….they might not want to hear now…time is a factor.
2. I went back to 2 – 1 but coul dnot find what you are pointing too.
Can you be more clear what we individually could do?
3. Or as a group?
Of course this blog is read by L-nd- and others…
hello you L-nd- and others, enjoy the stuff here and BTW let us know if the info published her is not true!
Love to all.
Dear Another Name (#126),
The post in question from Way.of.the.Slow.Man is reposted below.
For what it’s worth I believe these ideas have merit as a way of using PR to pressure local law enforcement and government agencies. That said, I also think it is naive to assume actions like these will substantially influence current members beyond the effect the blog already has. These tactics could in fact serve to harden the resolve of some hardline current members. However, IMO if the FOF loses its legal status as a church all other sensitivities become moot, and hardline current members can go to hell (or stay there) as long as their cult (hi Vinnie) becomes legally recognized as a cult.
on 29 Sep 2007 at 7:05 pm687 Way.of.the.Slow.Man
…pulling down the walls… (Observer 573)
The lifeblood of the current fof are the “teaching” payments by current students. Stop the money and you bankrupt just-plain-bob’s freeloading rapacious existence.
While this blog is an extraordinary community: revealing, healing and heart ripping in its intensity, it is a soft direct action for shining truth to current members who are interested in looking.
But looking is not always seeing.
It appears easy for existing members to continue to avert their eyes, or like self-indulgent Vinnie, justify continued membership and support of just-plain-bob and his enablers.
So maybe its time to swing the bright spotlight around a bit to the parts of the fof that try to keep and attract paying ’students’ to finance j-p-b’s lifestyle.
It requires being seen and named in the public spotlight, but here’s a blueprint for direct action with some suggestions from previous posts:
Picket the FOF property – preferably when there is an event bringing fof-members from outside the local area.
Picket “teaching houses” in large cities. Let the neighbors know that a nest of fof-ers is supporting a cock-sucking monster.
Bring the press into it. Notify newspapers and TV about the blog. See if the SacBee, SF Chronicle and others that have done previous fof articles are interested in an update. A bleeding, dying cult could be a good Sunday read.
Organize press coverage for picketing and assemblies.
Do the same at foreign centers and ‘teaching’ houses.
Actions should be done with legal advice and in conjunction with local law-enforcement. There’s been enough personal misery with getting jailed or beset by the fof legal junkyard-dogs.
If just the blog has cut deeply into fof membership, dream of what public information and outing of fof members would do to chop j-p-b’s rapacious career. I would neither have joined nor stayed as long as I did with the information available now.
122 Another Name
‘Why don’t we not move Robert to the Ming house with a few who like to satisfy him…some bisexuals who do seem to enjoy it….’
A better suggestion might be to put him in prison where he belongs-of course,attended to by his ‘boys’.
For me,one thing that is truly hard to swallow is RB’s complete and utter disregard for the pain his actions inflicted on innocent students.The argrument that this was necessary ‘friction’ for awakening, or that this was the ‘play’ for these individuals, is an example of how low a man can sink to justify abusive behaviour.
So now, many of us are still picking up the pieces of our lives left in the wake of our ‘evolutionary’ experience alla fof, and what we thought was a ‘paradise’ turns out to be ‘hell’.
It seems hard to understand how the fof got so screwed up!
In the first few years I was in the ‘school’ I can remember very happy, joyful times, when I actually felt I was making the right efforts to experience my essence, and the essences of those around me, and yet at these same times lurking in the background was the thought of RB, and how ‘everything’ would be much better if I didn’t have to deal with this madman!!
Thanks all for listening, and posting, and for taking a stand.
Dear a former student:
Thank you for your post. From what I have read of your life on this blog, I know you have been though hell and back twice, and I value your voice. I agree about the genesis of many mental problems begin with childhood abuse, neglect, and incest, etc. having worked in the same areas of the mental health system as you. Children of divorced parents have double the chances of serious social and emotional problems 20 years later. This the cluster fuck of emotions I am dealing with, the future of my kids hanging in the balance raise the stakes by 10 fold for me.
You know, it doesn’t matter what you say to me in your post, platitudinous or not, just the time I spend reading your post and the fact that you would take the time to write me makes me feel more connected and less isolated, even though we have never met. You and I know, carrying around shame keeps us cut off from others, and I have had a difficult time bonding with people because of our shared past. It really helps when you are among others who understand first hand what you went through.
As you can tell, I am still paying for the fucking elitism that runs so deep in the Fellowship of Friends. I feel like it was grafted to my being in the high intensity atmosphere of the fof and no matter how hard I work on humbling myself, it seeps out, and others, like my wife, are repelled by it.
I am also experiencing a shift the idea of being present, but not remember myself: just being, looking, listening, feeling, and not thinking…it’s too painful right now to think about the past or future, although I know I will have to come to terms with both to be a whole person again…right now I am just experiencing the hole in my relationship with my wife and it hurts. No matter how much energy I invest in keeping it going, there’s a leak. I am learning to practice the Tao art of not doing, just letting it be.
So thanks for reading my platitudes, dude. We are even. I am just glad you’re out there.
Dear Abigail:
Thank you for reminding me that love is just a four letter word. I will heed your advice and back off from using it with her. I’ve also had be my own words and heed the advice I gave you not too long ago and practice forgiving myself now several times a day. The pace of the blog must be quickening!
Dear Tiger:
I’m visualizing RB in a windowless prison cell with nothing to look at but this blog scrolling down a wall 24/7. Keep posting!
Way.of.the.Slow.Man 125 said:
What is our responsibility to act re: fof?
At what point does knowledge become responsibility?
————————————————————————
I hate to throw cold water on your enthusiasm, and I am not taking the opposite side, but there is no such thing as “our” responsibility, just like there is no such thing as “our”
country, “our” freedom, or even “our” school, if there ever was one.
The only responsibility that exists is for each individual to decide, if, when and to whatever extent they wish to assume it, based on a previous and sincere dialog with their conscience.
All the rest is dominance, no matter how nobly expressed and convincingly put forward. Remember, “our” country, “our” freedom and “our” religion has gotten humanity into more trouble than history has pages to recount.
But for those who CHOOSE to take responsibility, Way.of.the.Slow.Man’s suggestions appear in 21/687 and have just been repeated above.
I merely wished to point out that taking responsibility may be the ultimate act of free will. No one can create responsibility for another, just like no one can evolve for another, though many try to convince us otherwise.
Wow, the finger is faster than the mind. I “back” buttoned and apparently the browser ‘sent my partial post.
130 Truth is Where You Find It
pinpoints the “I” of my post with ‘we’ and ‘our’
Follows is what I had been composing before technology pre-emptively sent for me…
—–
What, if any, is our responsibility to act re: fof?
At what point does knowledge become responsibility?
We have either personally experienced, or knowledge of what the fof hides and supports.
At what point does knowledge and responsibility become a requirement for action?
Do we have any responsibility to act to try to bring down just-plain-bobs’s supporting organization?
In post part 2(1) 687, I listed a blueprint for action that included proactive contacting the press in conjunction with picketing the fof home nest–isis, center teaching houses and possibly even student houses. Most actions required a public face presence by name and photo visibility. A few comments were received.
It is also possible to anonymously inform neighbors of a fof nest by flyers mailed to a neighborhood where a fof main house or a “student” teaching house is rented — just send flyers with blog and Rick Ross URLs listing a bit of j-p-b’s exploits and lawsuits. Normal neighbors inform landlords of bizarre tenants which would put an end to further leasing.
But what is right action?
Can we stuff awareness into current members?
Should we?
Is feeding the blog sufficient to:
– internally heal blog ‘members’ and give a voice to emotions too long held inside
– externally feed information for fof ‘students who are interested in seeing?
Should we be more proactive to shut down the fof?
– “out” fof center houses?
– “out” fof teaching houses?
– picket isis or center ‘teaching’ houses
I have been a fof graduate for over 20 years so am pretty far away in time from the current fof. And I am physically far from fof centers or students. But I am willing to help finance legal action or enquiries to help pull down the current fof.
I helped build the underpinnings of the current fof.
I am willing to help pull it down.
…apparently the browser ’sent my partial post.
must have been “C” (computer) influence
Yesterday I was in one of my city’s major bookstores. As I was waiting for some books I had requested, I wandered through the esoteric book section. The shelves held one or two copies of Gurdjieff and Ouspenski’s main titles and, surprisingly for me, three copies of obscure teacher Robert Burton’s “Self remembering”. Italy is one of the countries (maybe the only one?) where Robert’s book was translated and published by a local editor.
All the fourth way books had been bookmarked. There were two kinds: the “before makeover” G-O-style ones and the “new look” divine presence ones (“reaching wordless divine presence is the greatest miracle of the universe” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).
Anyway, before I even thought about it, I found myself pulling all the Fellowship bookmarks out of the books. My understanding is that the Gurdjieff foundation is not happy about them bookmarks either. So it occurred to me that this is a quite easy way to boicott the Fellowship of Friends: take those bookmarks out, again and again, till they get tired or find a better advertising tool. It’s a little considerate gesture that any of us located in a city where there’s a centre can do!
A little addition: as I was researching info for this post, I ran into an Amazon review of a book called “Taking With the Left Hand: Enneagram Craze, People of the Bookmark, & The Mouravieff “Phenomenon”, was this mentioned already on the blog? It looks like an interesting read. The “People of the Bookmark” are us, just in case that was not clear.
Laura,
Taking with the Left Hand is by William Patrick Patterson, who was a student of John Pentland’s and supposedly was annointed to lead the Gurdjieff Foundation when Pentland died. The observations he makes about the fof in his book are mild compared to the real deal. His point of view is coming from the “Burton has no legitimate connection to this work and is misleading his students” angle.
Here’s a story:
A couple of years ago, I was in a local book store and saw a poster for one of Patterson’s talks near my home. Just out of curiousity, I went. He talked the fouth way mumbo-jumbo for awhile, had us do some “sensing” exercises, and opened the floor for questions. For fun, I asked a question about self remembering and creating memory. He asked me about my understanding of self remembering and in my answer I used the phrase divided attention. He told me this was a wrong understanding of the idea and then, seemingly out of nowhere, launched into a diatribe about false teachings and corruption of the ideas. On and on it went. At the end, he turns his best Gurdjy steely gaze on me and says, “And this is the story of Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends, is it not,” in an incredibly self-satisfied tone. I almost laughed out loud. Judging from his manner, I believe that he thought that I thought, “Wow, how did this guy read my mind?” I came away from the experience thinking, “Same s#@t, different bag.”
Oh, and his students were a hoot, too. They seemed about as uptight as any group of folks I’ve run into. The women who introduced him (one of the inner circle, probably), spoke of him as if he were the second coming. After the event. I asked the two people manning the concession stand how many times a week the group met and how many students were in the local area. They stopped, stared at the ground for a moment, looked at each other with a look I’m sure we are all familiar with, and told me they couldn’t answer my question. So it goes.
#115 WhaleRider
WR, your post struck me deeply: it revealed a common experience of “love” which, when push comes to shove, turns out to be a big mess of “needs”. My advice, if it is at all welcome to you, is to try to remove yourself from the fly-paper part, the sticky part, the identification part that wants to know if there is “any love in there for you”. She said “No”. I bet she did.
If I can put myself in her shoes a bit, I can only imagine that she is pretty confused and hurting. Most likely she signed up for some mutual back patting, not for unconditional love. The past few months have been pretty lonely for her. You took off on a roller coaster ride, breaking out skeletons she does not wish to see and have no meaning for her.
So, if you can find it, try to find the place inside you that is love, but not personal. If you can’t find it, just act like you found it anyway. Bring her flowers with no strings attached. Really and truly, no strings.
To me, this is the essence of 12 step, from an Al-Anon perspective, withdraw your identification from the mutual disease, with no expectations that your partner will respond. They might, but they might not. In any case, the triad will change. When that changes, everything changes. The future is wide open because the present is wide open.
Good luck to you, you who have give me so much.
Love,
Bass
Kid Shelleen, sorry for being a pedant and all but I believe it was William Welch that succeeded John Pentland. With regard to the story and remarks about self-remembering, divided attention and creating memory could it be that RB may have got it wrong. It seems to be an example of the head doing its usual thing and trying to make sense of information that seems to require more. The result is the presentation of 4th way ideas that are somewhat removed from their real and original intention. Perhaps it originates in a wrong understanding of attention, where we are and how to get to where we need to be. But I should not be so harsh, after all what do I know?
In the original books we get very little on real practical application of 4th way methods, with perhaps a hint in Views, Life is real and in an encrypted form in Beelzebub. And this is because method has to be passed on such that it is faithful to its original form, not in a book.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
Allan S wrote:
“Kid Shelleen, sorry for being a pedant and all but I believe it was William Welch that succeeded John Pentland. With regard to the story and remarks about self-remembering, divided attention and creating memory could it be that RB may have got it wrong.”
Allan,
If my memory serves me, I believe I got the info re: Patterson succeding Pentland from the woman who introduced him at the talk.
Also, if you’ve read any of my previous post on the blog, you know that I have great distain for the fouth way. There are certainly elements of some sort of truth within it, but the same can be said of Scientology. It no longer matters to me whether Bob or the fof taught me the right way to remember myself or not. The system is flawed and leads nowhere. I think Ouspensky realized this at the end of his life.
You also wrote:
” The result is the presentation of 4th way ideas that are somewhat removed from their real and original intention.”
From another point of view, it may be that they are used exactly as originally intended: To separate a fool and his money.
Sheik, please don’t post my last reply that is in moderation. I accidently pasted a letter into it by mistake.
Kid Shelleen
You’re right I haven’t read much in the way of your previous posts, so thanks for that, perhaps I’ll have a look.
If we apply wrong method however, then how can we make the generalisation that the system is flawed?
And finally, yes this could also be so…it would certainly give an alternative interpretation of the “toast to the idiots”.
Anyway…I’ll go read some of you’re previous.
Allan.
Kid,
thanks for clarifying. I do like his nickname for Fellowship students and I am planning to copy it, it sounds silly enough for my taste.
“People of the Bookmark”: a group of people just as dogmatic and religious as the “People of the Book”, but with a lot less original material to study (the Corpus Burtonian being pretty skimpy), and a bad tendency to steal and corrupt other teachers’ ideas in order to justify and promulgate their own fallacious understanding. :.)
Dear Bass Ackwards:
Thanks for your post. Of course I welcome your advice! My therapist is signaling the same direction for me as you mentioned. She calls the love that is not personal compassion, which works for me. We are not sleeping all that well, and with two young kids, she is exhausted most of the time. That’s where I can display some compassion toward her and relieve some of the work load.
The other night I watched the movie, “Finding Forrester” and in it Forrester revealed his secret for winning a woman’s heart: give her an unexpected gift at an unexpected moment. I am going to work on that, and timing is crucial. My wife is so sensitized to my insecurities and fear right now, that any gesture, be it a hug, a compliment about her looks, or an offer to do something for her is suspect and causes her to shut down more. So I am learning to exist in ambivalence land for the time being and wait for the ‘right’ moment. Actually, I was planning to send her flowers at work in a week or two, so we are on the same wave length.
I really appreciate your input, and need to hear the same message over and over again from differing sources several times a day to get it through my thick head. Being close to RB in and intense way with my essence so exposed, set me up for attaching conditions to my intimacy: you do this for me, and you get to go to Europe or get a new watch. As you can tell, I am still working that shit out of my being.
******
Laura, you go girl! You’ve inspired me. I am going to check out my local bookstore for signs of the bookmark people and do my share.
Actions speak louder than words.
Laura and Whalerider and etc., etc.,
_____________________________
We can also replace the Fellowship of Friends bookmarks with Blog Bookmarks and perhaps a little ‘blog-blurb’, a quote, like ~
” Robert, do you really want these cuff links?” – “Yes, yes! I told you. I want them! Hurry up, get the car, let’s go. Now. Quickly. Call him, now, make sure he is still open…”
Then the web address for this blog-site.
Maybe a portrait of Fred Flintstone on one side of the bookmark and Barney Ruble on the other.
:.)
143 uno
great idea –now we just need someone to design them and someone who knows how to put them on a webpage so anyone can print them out from their computers. Maybe a few people who can translate them into the different languages.
141 WhaleRider
I have been reading and feeling for you, and as is the case for so many others, greatly appreciate what you have added to the conversation here.
I have a suggestion about the flowers (and wow, does this ever feel like butting in in too public a forum, but there you have it.) Instead of sending her flowers at work, which would seem unavoidably direct, how about getting a nice small arrangement and just putting it somewhere appropriate in the house, maybe the kitchen table, maybe in an entry way – just as a small offering, and with minimal comment unless she responds. And make it Daisies or Iris, or another delightful but neutral flower to avoid the expectations that roses might carry.
145 I vote for dahlias and zinnias, this is fall after all.
Good point Xena – a sure indication that I have not been getting flowers for my sweetie often enough!
145–I agree that this needs to be very discreet. I remember once when a student broke up with her boyfriend, Robert told him to send her flowers at work everyday. He did and I think it really teed her off.
Flowers,… all well and good, just don’t expect them to make a significant, long term difference. It’s also possible that she has made her decisions and nothing “surface” is going to change it.
Maybe work on reclaiming the “just you” aspect of yourself. Without that, any “love” is going to be temporal, and an effort to fill a hole only you can fill for yourself.
maybe you just need a spinal tap
Dear friends,
I love the flower conversation and…do not take advise from Robert as been mentioned….
He is not good as a marriage counselor…
Good laugh again…..
I vote for a new simple bookmark….
with the addres of the blog……..
Yippie….
Soft action,
like water trickeling…..
Another idea: send some of the blog emails to friends who are pondering????
Each month one or two with the address of the blog…!?
Give me some favorite slogans or quotes and I’ll design them.
150 Laura
“Divine presents”….donate now, donate often.
FOF…the”Way of the mincing Queen”
RB…I contain multitudes
Drop your illusions, then drop the soap.
FOF…We are all equally sheep.
addenda:
I am large, I contain multitudes
On the bookmarks, I would direct seekers to the first pages of the old Sheik’s blog – they can get to this chattier portion if they pursue it, but I think the real meat is in the beginning. Or perhaps someone will still make a “Best of The Blog” website.
The bookmark quotes shouldn’t be too sarcastic either, or they will have an opposite effect. We would want to look like knowlegeable, wiser former FoFers, not negative, bitter former FoFers.
tim 97
thanks for your supportive words, it’s good to hear from you again.
bruce 119
when m & i lived at kevin kelly’s house we were your “next-door” neighbors. i know that m developed a friendship with you and your wife during that phase but didn’t know that she had confided in you about the terror of her situation… it makes sense that she would turn to you and “your m” with the problem she faced.
“my m” fought valiantly against the power that was forcing her to act against her will. she fought it the only way she could, mostly with tears and verbal protestations. but there was little sympathy for her plight since it was the will of “the teacher” that she abort the pregnancy. Sharon s, linda, and other rb puppets were brought in to arrange the operation in L.A. and to try to convince m that the abortion was the right thing to do…
the explanation from the horse’s ass had something to do with the timing of the pregnancy, that the child would not be born on “the ark.” what outrageous bullshit!!! “the teacher” rationalized the whole thing based on the dire “prophecies” which at the time i believed… now i see that the predictions were nothing more than fear-mongering and another means of mind-control.
i’m not a “right-to-lifer” by any means, i believe it’s a woman’s right to choose what to do in the case of pregnancy. but given the situation and circumstances, m had no choice! she was coerced from the beginning, and i blame myself for this…. we should have just fled the scene then and there, but i was deeply brain-washed.
I’ve written previously that my “suspicion” at the time concerning the motivation behind the whole thing was jealous revenge… i left the academy and married m (you took the pictures of our wedding there at renaissance). i mentioned in a previous post that i went to miles with my concerns and suspicions — the next “conscious being” and already almost man # 5… what absolute rubbish!! i found no support from him, he backed “the teacher.” as a “task” from the teacher, i thought it was essential to convince m that it was the right thing to do…. i was just another “little eichman.”
this is stuff that’s been buried for a long time and it’s heart-rending to re-live… it makes me feel physically ill.
I was there at the hospital holding her hand after the abortion, trying to console her… (what a colossal fool i am), she could not be consoled, any words i might have uttered went unheard. the intent of the abortion worked as planned — by siding with “the teacher” i destroyed my wife’s trust in me and too, the marriage. I’ve written before, that my complicity in this criminal act is personally THE most damning event of my fof experience. it’s a sin i’ve lived with for many years and i’ll go to my grave with it… there’s hell to pay. i loathe myself for my part in it and i have to wonder how a human being responsible for this situation many times over can possibly live with “itself” ?!? it’s completely monstrous!
in other posts, i’ve briefly sketched my difficulties when i left the fof… i lived a dissolute and self-destructive life, i slept on the pavement at night and aimlessly wandered the streets by day, like “wind along the waste.” later i realized that this was the manifestation of a strong death-wish, the humiliation of that kick-in-the balls courtesy of “the teacher” completely destroyed my will to live and i can say now, “but for the grace of god” and the loving support of a few earth-angels, i should be already, a long time in the grave.
thank you for listening to my story
Whalerider:
I think you are trying too hard with your wife and your neediness is just becoming irritating. It can begin to seem like a whinning child. Leave her alone for awhile and try to be strong for yourself. Stop focusing so much on YOUR needs, YOUR hurt and YOUR disappointments. Get a grip on. Your wife’s love may turn to contempt otherwise.
Sorry to be so harsh but there may be some truth for you in these words.
I think the bookmark idea is excellent. And I agree that it should not be nasty, sarcastic or spiteful. Some simple true statements of fact and the blog address for starters.
154 ‘ton
Part of RB’s crusade to end pregnancies was due to a child being a hindrance to RB’s hitting on married men.
#22/154 `ton
You heart-wrenching story leaves me at a loss for words.
As RB liked to quote: “Lord, what fools these mortals be…” One problem has been that he does not seem to put himself in either of those categories, mortal or fool.
thanks to you opus for reading my story.
bruce, thanks for being here,
you are a TRUE friend.
vena 155
i would agree with your sentiment. my feeling is that this forum is a good place to process some “personal shit” amongst sympaticos but it shouldn’t become a “pity-party.”
i have nothing but gratitude for all that i encounter in this mysterious “air-breathing existence. the blog can help those in need of emotional support but it’s important not to feed into weakness, i “salute” you for pointing this out. the blog can be a means of transforming personal suffering, but the larger issue here (i feel) is transforming the negative situation that is the “lesser-fellowship as helmed by that “creature” called “the teacher.”
apologies for more dated cultural material…
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=8DjDqblPUgM
Well the dawn was coming,
heard him ringing on my bell.
He said, “My name’s the teacher,
that is what I call myself.
And I have a lesson
that I must impart to you.
It’s an old expression
but I must insist it’s true.
Jump up, look around,
find yourself some fun,
no sense in sitting there hating everyone.
No man’s an island and his castle isn’t home,
the nest is for nothing when the bird has flown.”
So I took a journey,
threw my world into the sea.
With me went the teacher
who found fun instead of me.
Hey man, what’s the plan, what was that you said?
Sun-tanned, drink in hand, lying there in bed.
I try to socialize but I can’t seem to find
what I was looking for, got something on my mind.
Then the teacher told me
it had been a lot of fun.
Thanked me for his ticket
and all that I had done.
Hey man, what’s the plan, what was that you said?
Sun-tanned, drink in hand, lying there in bed.
I try to socialize but I can’t seem to find
what I was looking for, got something on my mind.
Not only should we remove every FOF bookmark from any book we find, I would go even further and suggest that we ‘intentionally misplace’ any of RB’s books we happen to see in any bookstore.
The energy of autumn seems to be coloring posts lately. Rich, reflective, and a touch of melancholy.
A few nights ago, I was unable to sleep, my mind churning with memories and images evoked by this blog.
I recalled a large Bay Area meeting Robert led at “Hiller Highlands” (or perhaps it was Skyline). The topic of relationships was brought up, and Robert’s “angles” produced a stir. We went to break.
Returning, Robert said (paraphrasing a bit) “what positive can be said about something that keeps one asleep?”
His disdain for relationships, and his insecurity should have been apparent at the time, but for me it was not.
I recall, the lines at the Lincoln Lodge, waiting to have a moment to ask Robert our burning questions. (For me, it often seemed connected to relationships.)
He was typically indifferent on the topic. “Let my love for you exist,” he would say.
Many of us actively sought his direction in our personal lives, willing puppets of his make-believe play.
Though I was around Robert often during my eight years at Renaissance, and occasionally chauffered him, I had absolutely no awareness of his personal sexual appetites. After all, he was celibate!
“Good students” of course, would go to great lengths to avoid gossip. And those who knew better, knew it was a waste of energy to speak to “good students” of the brutal realities. Only many years after leaving did I learn about the sinister world that had surrounded me.
It began to explain the apparition-like facial expressions of certain “sensitive” students, like Thomas E., Brian S., Thomas P. and so many others who, before my very eyes, were silently enduring their personal hells.
***
Some have suggested contacting newspapers to investigate the Fellowship. With drastic reductions of editorial staffs at most major newspapers, that may be a difficult task.
What about cutting edge magazines such as “Mother Jones”, or New Age/Spirituality journals? Anyone have a sense if this might be an appropriate special interest story for them? Does anyone have any inside connections with such a publication?
If one picked up the story, others may follow.
Laura: great suggestion about bookmarks. (All the hours I spent riding my motorcycle around L.A. placing those damn things!)
162
“What about cutting edge magazines such as “Mother Jones”, or New Age/Spirituality journals? Anyone have a sense if this might be an appropriate special interest story for them? Does anyone have any inside connections with such a publication?”
I would think that the significant number of posters here, and significant number of similar horror stories, in one place, might be an ample “hook” for a publication such as the above to pursue a story.
A couple people complaining is one thing. A blog that gets 1000 or more hits a day, substantially from the FOF membership, with it’s evident substantiation is a much stronger argument for exposure by the media. Maybe something even bigger than Mother Jones.
With poster’s permission, the blog is a fact rich source for a reporter, ready made for further expansion and elaboration. The media’s lawyers can quickly see what’s useful and what needs to be avoided.
Whalerider,
have you considered turning off your computer for a whole week and try investing the so well spared time into rekindling your once very precious relationship and into enjoying your precious fast growing children ?
If you are not using the deeper understanding of life that you are getting out of your “blogging” to improve the quality of your everyday life, you are just living a parallel to reality that soon or later will leave you face to face with the painful consequences of your poor choices.
It’s happening right under your nose.
Are you getting any younger?…didn’t think so.
Time to grow up, and that’s my advice.
Have a wonderful day.
.M.
Dear RobertC:
Thanks for your input. I just need to back off for a while and respect my wife’s process. You are right though. It was the accumulation of little things that caused her to want out, and it will be the accumulation of little things that will cause her to want back in.
Hey Vena:
I hear ya. Thanks for that. I do have a kid in me, thank goodness, who whines sometimes, and until recently I didn’t disclose on this blog. I don’t pretend to be a man number 11, just a guy. I never had the shoulder of a big sister to cry on or look up to for advice either…so by unloading here, I can spare my wife of the drama, hopefully save my marriage, and spare my kids unnecessary suffering in their future. It takes a village to raise a family. I talk about myself and my needs because I know myself best. You are right, the more I grip her, the more she slips away, and the more I lose myself.
If you think about it, there are many reading this blog who are faced with having to make painful choices in the direction of their lives also, to leave or to stay…I have benefited greatly from sharing my story and then listening to as many expereinced voices as I can in addition to my own before I make my choice. My heartfelt thanks to you all.
as for publicizing the contents of the blog in the “print media,”
the lurid details of the destrucitve aspects a a homosexual “love” cult as revealed here, might be more fitting for “american supermarket tabloids” such as the National Inquirer and others of that ilk.
I am all for removing bookmarks and “misplacing” any publication from the “lesser fof.” it’s a kind of act of “civil disobedience” and a service to the larger community. Like i said here earlier, after reading “THE FOURTH WAY” i thought i was onto something real… then i found the bookmark.
Dear Medusa:
“…you are just living a parallel to reality that soon or later will leave you face to face with the painful consequences of your poor choices.”
My sentiments exactly to anyone still stuck in the Fellowship!
That’s my point. There are many parallels here, if you care to apply our individual, personal stories to the larger picture.
I am not afraid of appearing immature to you or anyone else here. I am who I am, and I accept that. If we all just cower, inner consider, and suppress our pain, the criminal acts of Robert Burton continue and more people will suffer.
Hey, I brought you out of the woodwork though, didn’t I?…and a human, caring side to the blog. But enough about me. I can take a hint. You have turned me into stone for one week. I have some reading to do anyway.
So what’s your story?
Thanks Medusa. This one’s for you:
whalerider…
thank you for a “beautiful day.”
The heart is a bloom
Shoots up through the stony ground
There’s no room
No space to rent in this town
You’re out of luck
And the reason that you had to care
The traffic is stuck
And you’re not moving anywhere
You thought you’d found a friend
To take you out of this place
Someone you could lend a hand
In return for grace
It’s a beautiful day
Sky falls, you feel like
It’s a beautiful day
Don’t let it get away
You’re on the road
But you’ve got no destination
You’re in the mud
In the maze of her imagination
You love this town
Even if that doesn’t ring true
You’ve been all over
And it’s been all over you
It’s a beautiful day
Don’t let it get away
It’s a beautiful day
Touch me
Take me to that other place
Teach me
I know I’m not a hopeless case
See the world in green and blue
See China right in front of you
See the canyons broken by cloud
See the tuna fleets clearing the sea out
See the Bedouin fires at night
See the oil fields at first light
And see the bird with a leaf in her mouth
After the flood all the colors came out
It was a beautiful day
Don’t let it get away
Beautiful day
Touch me
Take me to that other place
Reach me
I know I’m not a hopeless case
What you don’t have you don’t need it now
What you don’t know you can feel it somehow
What you don’t have you don’t need it now
Don’t need it now
Was a beautiful day
Dear all,
The suggestion of putting ‘anti–bookmarks’ (Laura #22-133 or thereabouts) where the FoF puts bookmarks seems an idea whose time has come, and certainly protected as free speech. Is it necessary to have a special design? I would think that a few choice words from any computer printer would do, the message would be clear enough. I’ve already done mine:
For those who are really busy, I’ve put these words in a slightly fancier setting (warning triangles and such), in color, six bookmarks to a page. You can find it at:
Thanks, Laura!
Hi WhaleRider,
The good advise from RobertC (144) points toward reducing the expectations contained within the flower gesture, but I’m sure as long as you continue “waiting for the right moment”, it continues to be laced with expectations.
When I revisited the book I recommended to you earlier, I found some passages regarding freedom and ego-driven action (Me, Inc) in relation to false freedom. “We expect others to free us by complying with our expectations. We equate freedom with being in a position of power over others. So, freedom seems to mean being above the law or having the power to impose it on others.” The writer then continues by story and example to demonstrate the completely different nature of experience when one is obedient to the fundamental order and intelligence of being. . . . that ‘seeing’ is the issue in life and that seeing is freeing.
Me, Inc is an insidious companion to all of us. We can help each other by bringing it to light. I think you should leave your wife alone. If you are moved by your own wish to bring a vase of beautiful, healing flowers into your home for all to enjoy, then do it without alterior motives.
More than ever I re-recommend Whole Child/Whole Parent to you. It is a fast-forward to relevancy now.
129 WhaleRider
It might seem reasonable to assume that as a result of my many humiliating and humbling experiences I would at least have gotten some decent humility out of it. Unfortunately what I have is more of a realization of what an arrogant asshole I can be.
This certainly would not have been at the top of my list of things I wanted to receive many years ago when I undertook to follow Socrates advice to “know thyself”.
It is unfortunate that the FOF experiences based as it is/was on false expectations and imagination about a school and conscious being makes it hard to trust others and seek help. Most Fellowship of Friends members have a less realistic understanding of psychology than loyal followers of DR. Phil. At least Dr. Phil’s fans do not imagine they are the highest, uniquely gifted chosen of the Gods on the planet.
If I had one 100% verified piece of advice it would be get help. If you could do it yourself you would not have been in a cult to start with. I don’t endorse another “great esoteric teacher” but more like thinking of coaches for specific areas.
There are support groups, therapists, workshops.
John Bradshaw is a good example of current possibilities in modern psychology. Also those he trained like the Therapists at the “Center for Creative Growth” who work with shame intensively with workshops and intensive group work.
A popular Bradshaw book.
Healing the Shame
That Binds You
Learn how to recognize the many
faces of shame and how to heal
toxic shame and regain full
possession of your life.
I lead a simple life. One aim I have is that my experiences be something that I can use to help others. Probably not by writing any bestsellers or leading workshops but even one person a little bit is fine. It makes me think that my Karma is in better shape than Robert Burton and his “inner circle” of spiritual criminals.
137 Kid Shelleen,
‘From another point of view, it may be that they are used exactly as originally intended: To separate a fool and his money.’
Doesn’t this just piss you off!!!’What fools these Motals be’!!!
Many of us spent years paying for what we later discovered to be a complete sham,or mostly so. If it hadn’t been for some of the great once in a lifetime people I encountered, and shared experiences, the tally of my time in the fof would be much worse.
So is this the price required to seek truth? Sometimes I don’t know what pisses me off more-the money, being made a fool,all of the above. I think tonight I’ll take all of the above!
I’d like to believe that my time in the fof wasn’t just to be fodder for a sociopathic con-man.
At times, I catch myself wishing, hoping for some ‘Universal Law of Justice’ despensed by somekind of ‘Overlord’ upon the head of RB.
Deleted on request of the author. — ES
From the Italian blog, October 4th Daily Card:
When the lower self ends up on the moon,
it demonstrates how worthless he was.
Care to comment on this pearl of wisdom, anyone?
I wouldn’t know where to start. :.{
Thursday, October 4, 2007
When the Robot self
ends up in the slammer,
it demonstrates how
worthless he was.
Love, Rolex
I saw it written and I saw it say
Pink moon is on its way
And none of you stand so tall
Pink moon gonna get you all
Its a pink moon
Its a pink, pink, pink, pink, pink moon.
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=hE0ODrmaiFE
Even a man who is true at heart
And says his prayers at night
May become a wolf
When the wolf bane blooms
And the moon is full and bright
Claude Rains
Ahh, Nick Drake. No one quite like him. If you dig Nick try: Elliott Smith, M. Ward, and Sufjan Stevens.
Off topic: From Elena somewhere up the page:
I am a beginner Turbot, but sometimes I have been, I still hurt others. Can we allow for each other to speak freely without having to believe each word of what we say, or agree? Just listen? Question as you are doing? Wonder? Take sips of each others soul as if it were the finest wine? Not disqualify each other no matter how ridiculous I or another might sound? If you let me sit around you, that alone will heal me.
You’ve been much questioning the righteousness and having answers. Don’t be afraid of having sincere answers that you can then replace when you find more sincere ones. What we are most afraid of is our own beauty. Our own beauty is not our own but ours
______________________________________________
Elena,
I have been away and just found this gem among others sparse on the blog.
I like you how you speak from the heart! you are a very gentle soul in fact so respectful of others. You are able to separate the words from the person who is writing them, and you do not attack the person unless you seem to be forced to do so to defend yourself.
I send you healing waves.
Bass wrote: After reading your post ‘ton, I understand what is behind her tears. The people who cling tightest to the Fellowship now may be those who have made such heart wrenching payments in the past, in the name of Evolution. The dissolution that may be occurring will certainly affect people like her the most. I will send your post to another mutual friend, and ask her to look out for M.
Bass I think you are think of a different M, I understood it is M R and you are talkig about M D. Maybe they both have he same back ground????
I wonder if all those M, E, L, S, G, S, T all these women, had abortions and or hysterectomies. So many women of that generation have no children and seem a little …..?
Then there is a group who gave their children away….can you believe this?
Then the men are “Infused” and form a “special” bond. They are the special ones who give their “nectar” to the Socio Path. And the ones who refuse to give their “nectar” will be excluded and ignored.
I dream of a city
Where people will be taught
What they are
Were love, healing and pureness is the standard
Where spirituality is interwoven in daily life…
Without one “leader”
I dream and see it in front of me.
Love and enjoy this day…
Deleted on request of the author. — ES
David B. (161) ~
You wrote ~
“Not only should we remove every Fellowship of Friends bookmark from any book we find, I would go even further and suggest that we ‘intentionally misplace’ any of Robert Burton’s books we happen to see in any bookstore.”
_________________________________________________
Perhaps you can “go even further” and print a ‘Notice of Robert Burton and The Fellowship of Friends Depravity’ and give it to the bookstore owner with this blog sites address; speak to them, educate and don’t procrastinate.
:.)
On the subject of misogyny:
Does anyone reading this have any direct knowledge about how the skirt “exercise” started – the first time?
When it was first instituted, there was NO Rose Garden for anyone to be sighted in, so the story about RB propositioning a masculine looking woman there is suspect – unless that was what brought about the second imposition of this lifestyle rule.
The first time that was handed down as an exercise was about 1980 or 1981. It was in place for several years, perhaps through the 80’s. It came back for a time in the 90’s. At the point RB declared pants to be an acceptable nuisance, it was always accompanied by the statement that “Nothing is being given, because nothing was taken away”.
‘ton ~ (154) ~
For what it’s worth (and I say this to others too, Whalerider, Elena, Joseph G., Bruce, Former Student, etc.) I am going to print out your post #154 and mail it today to the Governor’s Office of California and a few Yuba County Officials, yes, and I believe I will print some more ‘choice T-Bones’ and mail those too.
:.)
180: Bass
With no wish to undermine the thoughtful substance of your message, but – Please, let’s look at that term, “ladies”.
Why is it “men”, but always “ladies”, not “women”? Are we afraid of the power of that word? Is the neutralizing substitute “males” used even half as often as “ladies” is?
Years ago, talking with a guy on salary who kept referring to the females in the FOF’s herd of cattle as “the ladies” – he had no idea how ridiculous that was.
__________________
The Sacramento Bee
Contact The Bee: 2100 Q St., Sacramento, CA 95816
P.O. Box 15779, Sacramento, CA 95826
_________________________
Appeal-Democrat
P.O. Box 431
Marysville, CA 95901
_________________________
Los Angeles CITY BEAT
Att: Steve Appleford
5209 Wilshire Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90036
__________________________
Dennis Rockstroh
Blogs.mercurynews.com
__________________________
WIRED MAGAZINE
Corporate Communications
The Condé Nast Publications
4 Times Square
New York, NY 10036
__________________________
Attorney General’s Office California Department of Justice Attn: Public Inquiry Unit P.O. Box 944255 Sacramento, CA 94244-2550
____________________________________________
Office of Victims Services California Attorney General’s Office P.O. Box 944255 Sacramento, CA 94244-2550
___________________________________________
California Bureau of Investigation Attorney General’s Office, Division of Law Enforcement 1102 Q Street Sacramento, CA 95814
___________________________________________
Office of Victims Services California Attorney General’s Office P.O. Box 944255 Sacramento, CA 94244-2550
____________________________________________
California Attorney General’s Office
Crime and Violence Prevention Center
1300 I Street, Suite 1150
Sacramento, CA 95814
____________________________________________
Sexual Assault Felony Enforcement (SAFE) task forces were established in partnership with local and state law enforcement to reduce violent sexual assault crimes through proactive enforcement focused on predatory sex offenders. Many of these multi-jurisdictional, multi-agency task forces utilize CBI to serve as the Task Force Commander. CBI also serves as the Task Force Commander on SAFE task forces in partnership with the FBI to investigate crimes originating from the sexual exploitation of children via the Internet.
Sexual Predator Apprehension Team (SPAT) provides monitoring and apprehension of sexual habitual offenders and convicted sex offenders who fail to register with local authorities and takes a pro-active role in the investigation and prosecution of child molesters and violent sex offenders. SPAT provides leadership, coordination, expertise, and training to local law enforcement agencies.
The California Witness Protection Program provides protection of witnesses and their families, friends, or associates who are endangered due to ongoing or anticipated testimony in gang, organized crime, or narcotic trafficking cases or in other cases that have a high degree of risk to the witness. The CWPP reimburses California’s District Attorneys for expenses incurred by agencies during the protection of witnesses.
The Foreign Prosecution Program assists state and local law enforcement agencies in the location and prosecution of suspects who are Mexican nationals and flee to Mexico after committing major felony crimes in California; and assists with the deportation from Mexico of American fugitives who are wanted in California for homicide and child abduction cases; provides for the prosecution in Mexico of Mexican citizens who are accused of committing violent crimes in California; investigative assistance to foreign countries in matters that require the seizure of evidence, suspect interviews, and other requests from a foreign nation that may require investigative support; technical and logistical support to agencies requesting assistance involving the return of abducted children; oversees, when requested, the voluntary return or deportation of a foreign national who is a fugitive. Agents assigned to this program are located in the San Diego Regional Office.
The Unsolved Violent Crime Program provides assistance to local law enforcement in the investigation and resolution of unsolved violent crimes, such as, homicides, sexual assaults, and kidnappings. Agents assigned to this program are located in the Fresno Regional Office.
___________________________
l.t.y.a.
154
Which makes it particularly poignant that M had to carry this with her through the years. On one hand, it’s understandable that M has had to become so invested in supporting the status quo, rules etc., to assuage the eventual and imminent self-questioning that cannot help but happen during the eventual demise of the FOF. I don’t think it could be a sadder situation.
I think her occasional harshness to ex-students is actually her harshness to herself, something RB has invoked in many of us, out of shame, gullibility, stubbornness etc.
sorry for the darkness, but here it goes.
Since we live in a world of coincidences, I too am suddenly in the midst of splitting pains. I’ll say no more, but tonight I feel like a samurai. And I feel more and more that I have lived in a gulag. A fucking gulag survivor.
You are right, Vinnie, it was definitely a lager of my own choosing, I was not forced into submitting, and I will feel forever lucky for having participated in the Fellowship of Firends instead of Buchenwald. and for having escaped relatively scar-free (thank you Gods!!!!!!!) But the devastating pain of seeing all this is for real. People who share their horrible stories here have very little left within themselves of the self-complacent and smart-ass attitude that you seem so proud of displaying.
Maybe you are just not as intelligent as you would like yourself to be, but what can I say? Long time ago I had to admit I am no Einstein either. Actually, the fact of having relatively above average literacy skills hasn’t spared me one bit from making an inordinate amount of catastrophic decisions in my life. I now strongly believe that what keeps us Alive at the end of the day is the strenght of our heart, and Vinnie, yours is beating so slowly I still can’t hear it. Please, Vinnie’s heart , can you pound a little faster?
BTW, now I know why I posted the Daily Card quote. If this is the moon Robert Burton is referring too, then he’s really got me scared.
This is the light of the mind, cold and planetary
The trees of the mind are black. The light is blue.
The grasses unload their griefs on my feet as if I were God
Prickling my ankles and murmuring of their humility
Fumy, spiritous mists inhabit this place.
Separated from my house by a row of headstones.
I simply cannot see where there is to get to.
The moon is no door. It is a face in its own right,
White as a knuckle and terribly upset.
It drags the sea after it like a dark crime; it is quiet
With the O-gape of complete despair. I live here.
Twice on Sunday, the bells startle the sky —
Eight great tongues affirming the Resurrection
At the end, they soberly bong out their names.
The yew tree points up, it has a Gothic shape.
The eyes lift after it and find the moon.
The moon is my mother. She is not sweet like Mary.
Her blue garments unloose small bats and owls.
How I would like to believe in tenderness –
The face of the effigy, gentled by candles,
Bending, on me in particular, its mild eyes.
I have fallen a long way. Clouds are flowering
Blue and mystical over the face of the stars
Inside the church, the saints will all be blue,
Floating on their delicate feet over the cold pews,
Their hands and faces stiff with holiness.
The moon sees nothing of this. She is bald and wild.
And the message of the yew tree is blackness – blackness and silence.
Sylvia Plath
Hi friends,
Thanks Bruce for your posts on what it is really like to be one of Robert´s boys and have so much power that you can tell Linda, Girard or whoever to back off.
That alone shows the degree of complicity that Girard, Linda and other enablers have had for too long.
It is denigrating to anyone who is in anyway connected with the boys, Robert or these people. That is, the rest of students who simply pay so that it can continue to happen. These poor enablers really thought that Robert was beyond those laws but allowing Robert to free himself from them allowed them to indulge in similar corruption. The integrity was lost.
The other issue is that of women who had to give up their children. Unnamed damage has been done to families in almost every student by the Fellowship idea of biological families. A lifetime of not judging ourselves for what we did not have the being to avoid at the time and the consistent recreation of one´s life are more healing than any time spent on dwelling on this issue. These women are the ones that will need the greatest support if the Fellowship were ever to collapse. I do not know how but I offer any support to any one of these women who ever needs it. Any one of them including all those in the inner circle. There are places in Colombia where you could spend months resting for a third of what you spend in the states but you must first understand that resting is as much of a blessing as working.
I offer this because beyond the horrors that we´ve allowed each other to suffer I believe this women and men in the Fellowship of Friends, including Robert Burton are essentially sick people. Sick as in ill and a responsible society would give them help and not just send them to the public old people´s home as they were willing to do with Dorothy or some similar disaster. The compassion with which we treat ourselves now is the greatest healer to the lack of compassion with which we treated ourselves in the past. We cannot recover the children but we can help the mothers who still have them within, by not closing doors.
My younger daughter and I are only just beginning to heal after ten years of separation from the effects of these ideas creeping even just slightly into our lives.
TON, Thank you for your letter 154. No amount of negativity towards our deeds is a healer. Don´t blame yourself. There is no hell but the one we are willing to make for our selves. Take the pain and carry it. At the beginning it makes one walk bent, moan and hurt but after a while, one learns to carry it enough to walk straight again. You seem to have already walked that path and this replay on the blog is only a reassurance of that understanding. Thank you for your sharing.
Thank you Vera, hope we meet one of this days again here or there. When things are clearer in Colombia, I hope to have a place where you can all come and take time for your selves.
Thank you all for your posts and the continued life you´re giving to this cyberspace community.
Thanks, Unoanimo, for all your work (which Andrew Harvey terms “Sacred Activism”). I would like to add to your address list:
Tax Fraud
Internal Revenue Service
Fresno, CA 93888
and
Tax Fraud
Franchise Tax Board
P.O. Box 942840
Sacramento, CA 94240-0040
I pledge to send to sundry possibly interested agencies and publications at least five letters per week, stating what I know and including the blog URL, until the walls come down. Thanks again
can’t get the stink off,
he’s been hanging around for days.
comes like a comet,
suckered you but not your friends.
one day he’ll get to you,
teach you how to be a holy cow.
don’t get my sympathy hanging out the 15th floor.
you’ve changed the locks 3 times,
he still comes reeling through the door.
and soon he’ll get to you,
teach you how to get to purest hell.
you do it to yourself you do
and that’s what really hurts is
you do it to yourself just you,
you and no-one else
you do it to yourself.
can’t kick the habit!
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=R5X7HKxpiQA
Dear Laura,
When the night falls
And the thougts get to wild
The despair rages
I sit still silently and see the storm
As from a distance…
Then I do some rapid breathings, laying flat on bed or couch
around 60…times very fast , like hyperventilation
then no breathing for a few seconds
Silence , internally ….
Close to indifference but not really….
Somebody said to not attach to your thougts
From silence to quietness….no thougts…!
Hope this helps
For all the Laura’s Ton’s, Bruce’s and Whalerider and all.
HUG and embrace yourself.
Not Ragú for dinner again?
While the rest of the world weeps California plays in the waves:
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=IWbe-NSK6I
I don’t know if other Vista users are experiencing this, but every time I click on one of Laura’s usually uninspired youtube links my browser defaults to the Italian server which means that videos available in the U.S. do not necessarily exist at the “it.youtube” address. The fix requires “TOOLS”, “INTERNET OPTIONS”, “DELETE” all history and a reboot.
While the rest of the world weeps California plays in the waves:
What is generally not known is that “surf music” was invented in Japan:
192 Graduates
“Laura’s usually uninspired youtube links”
You are joking, right?
Bruce ~
Now, how would Graduates joke? Are you joking?
Bruce 194
192 Graduates
“Laura’s usually uninspired youtube links”
You are joking, right?
************
Her links are usually not to my taste (heavy downers or too light-weight or just plain irritatingly uncreative), except for the Leonard Cohen stuff- the guy is a genius.
Anyway, cheer up Laura. I don’t know where you are but you’re not in the Fellowship of Fiends any longer so practice some simple happiness and leave the daily resentment behind.
Some Cheer:
unoanimo 195
Bruce ~
Now, how would Graduates joke? Are you joking?
*******
Important Information:
195 unoanimo
Re:197… see, he has some kind of perverse funny bone.
Laura, I love your posts.
Greetings all – I am scheduled to begin ‘Work’ with the FOF at a center in a major city in the next few weeks. I am only interested in being present and I’ve found working with others with similar aims to be most beneficial. There is a lot of esoteric-sounding nonsense surrounding the 4th Way school of thought and I can really only go on what I’ve been able to verify for myself; namely, trying to awaken seems like a better quality of being than sleepwalking through life. What appeals most to me about FOF is the idea of drawing from all the esoteric traditions to create a sort of super-non-denominational religion. In theory, the idea of taking the core truths and cutting away all the extraneous hogwash sounds like exactly what I’ve always felt was right. At first, the negative press coverage of FOF actually piqued my curiosity. I figured that we men numbers 1-6 may not be in a position to judge a man no. 7, self-proclaimed though he may be, and I was willing to suspend disbelief until I had a reason to do otherwise. They ask for 150 a month for the first year – quite reasonable if they deliver as promised. I’ve been assured that it is most important that I verify everything for myself – to determine if this is the right school environment for me – and that no question is off-limits. I revel in creating social dissonance, so they won’t get to me by applying that kind of pressure. I don’t give a damn about being thrown out and shunned – unless I’m losing something of real value that I cannot get anywhere else. I’m one to tempt fate, and I am quite curious, but I if I’m going to go through with this I want you all to ‘go with me’ in spirit and counsel me along the way. I am open to your comments, questions, suggesting and I’d like you to coach me through this experience. Tell me how to get the most out of it, without getting used and abused. Thanks.
P.S. Are there other 4th Way groups out there that aren’t as cult-like as the FOF? I’d really like to be involved in the work with others and study the esoteric traditions of all the major religions without getting conned.
When the lower self ends up on the moon,it demonstrates how worthless he was.
Love Robert
When the lower self ends up on the moon,it demonises angels with it’s bad habits begging them to prolong it’s presence with the ‘longer be’.
Love Rolex
P.S. Bares Reposting #174,
look for another name you little thief.
deleted at the author’s request
Here’s a link for all the cloud lovers.
http://www.cloudappreciationsociety.org/gallery/index.php?showimage=3182
The following selection has been inspired by various viewpoints on this blog. The ideas expressed are not necessarily those of the poster and any veiled reference to someone you may know is in the mind of the reader. Enjoy!
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one’s definition of your life; define yourself. Harvey Fierstein
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious. Brendan Gill
Fortunately analysis is not the only way to resolve inner conflicts. Life itself still remains a very effective therapist. Karen Horney
I have a simple philosophy: Fill what’s empty. Empty what’s full. Scratch where it itches. Alice Roosevelt Longworth
God writes a lot of comedy… the trouble is, he’s stuck with so many bad actors who don’t know how to play funny. Garrison Keillor
Here is the test to find whether your mission on Earth is finished: if you’re alive, it isn’t. Richard Bach
Look, I don’t want to wax philosophic, but I will say that if you’re alive you’ve got to flap your arms and legs, you’ve got to jump around a lot, for life is the very opposite of death, and therefore you must at the very least think noisily and colorfully, or you’re not alive. Mel Brooks
‘ton, Bruce, Another Name, Bass Ackwards,
There’s no question about the value of personal stories posted here but I’m concerned about the fairness of disclosing personal information regarding others. Another Name and Bass, you spell out the initials in such a way that it’s clear who’s being discussed in your posts, and I wonder if it’s appropriate to expose M’s story before it’s “time”, which in my opinion is HER time.
M drank the kool-aid. Few of us went that far. We know that her journey to reconcile all these pieces will be immensely difficult, probably more difficult than yours, ‘ton.
Ironically, Bass, you posted your story (172) to offer a “view from the inside” that shows the pain here, then in post 180 you spelled out M’s identity, so there was no hope of anonymity for her. Even though you care for her, this seems careless to me. I don’t think anyone here should presume license of that kind over another’s personal stories.
across the river 203,
thank you for your sensitivity in the matter.
i’ve made a few mistakes here on the blog… omitting quotation marks and referencing to begin with — i hope that is the least of it.
when i first started blogging i fear i may have given too much information — information that discloses my identity. from that it is easy enough to figure out who the unfortunate wife was.
i like to think that “truth is a healer” and in the interest of “full disclosure” i might have gone too far. i hope this isn’t a mistake — legal battles are not something i care to get involved in… AND I DO NOT WANT TO INFLICT MORE DAMAGE ON THE “KOOL-AIDE-DRINKERS” — especially those i still know and care about. that’s certainly not the intent of my posting here. i hope that it will not be an unforeseen consequence.
in this regard,
dear uno 182,
i’m not comfortable with “my story” being made more public unless there is some assurance of anonymity for the parties concerned.
‘done here’, not (don’t here)
204
“dear uno 182,
i’m not comfortable with “my story” being made more public unless there is some assurance of anonymity for the parties concerned.”
________________________________________________
Well ‘ton you’re doing it, not me; you posted your story on a blog site that is read by up to 1300 people a day, including government and state officials, INS, the local community, etc.
It’s cool, I don’t ‘have to’ use your story as a sample in mailings, yet, to me ‘ton you’re barking up the wrong tree, after all, as I said, you’ve already don’t here on the blog what you’re “not comfortable with”… what’s up with that?
Strong story and writing; let me know if you change your mind.
_____________
l.t.y.a.
Sheik please delete the previous posts from me “Vida Tem Um
so Vida” some points were inappropriate
I appreciate it — here is the new one
=====
‘Ton
all my empathy to you and your wife. Your story goes beyond all the other stories told so far.
What happened is a true crime and the everyone involved soon or later must deal with the consequences of their actions.
=====
Can true humility and compassion exist in our words and eyes unless we know we too are capable of any act?
— St. Francis of Assisi
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Xena maybe you will like this…
uno 206
“i’m not comfortable with “my story” being made more public unless there is some assurance of anonymity for the parties concerned.”
________________________________________
i know the site is accessible to many… i should have emphasized “being made ‘MORE’ public…”
unfortunately it seems i’ve made my identity here too transparent. the resultant potential for doing harm to current “friends” (as pointed out by across the river 203) is what concerns me.
i have been partly ignorant and mostly sloppy about posting here, i apologize, that’s my mistake… i think i can say, that we all say / write, and do things about which we have “second thoughts” and misgivings. that’s at the root of what is meant when i say “i’m not comfortable with…”
with anonymity, i would have no problem with use of “my story.” when i started blogging here a little over a month ago, i had no idea where the unraveling and dialolgue would lead. if i could do it over knowing where this was going, i would have better disguised myself. but i don’t think it’s possible to put toothpaste back into the tube, unless you know of a way…? my bad.
i appreciate what you’re doing here.
thanks for considerately caring in this case
and for not “jumping-on-my-throat.”
This is a quotation about a real teacher from someone who was a real teacher to me.
“The Teacher or Guide is in service to the student. The student is not there to serve the needs of the teacher. This is why the very best teachers are completely free. That means that their happiness and emotional state is not dependent on anyone else. That includes the success of the student. When the teacher emotionally needs or wants the student to succeed, then the teacher is now dependent on the apprentice. When this happens then both are trapped in emotional dependency.”
When I moved to Isis/Apollo, I was shocked at the disparity between my ideal and what I saw. But I used the ideas of the work (feminine dominance, the lower can’t see the higher …) like drug to numb myself. But in the end, none of it, could keep me from seeing the insanity of the teacher/student relationship. This was five years ago and I found myself feeling guilty and alone unable to share my thoughts and feelings with anyone including my partner.
The defense mechanism of the school was firmly in place, my attempts at questioning were met with fear and paralysis from those closest to me. My partner’s disappointment in my ability to do the work became rejection. A year later, my partner returned from a meeting with Robert saying, I have received the key to what I have to do. “I want to end this marriage because I need to awaken and you are not a good third force to my work.”
I never thought of myself as a fragile person, but there I was alone, vulnerable and suffering. After two years of processing these losses, I can say it has been worth it to recover the freedom of my mind and heart.
‘ton ~
Sometimes karma unravels in mysterious ways… You’ve done nothing ‘wrong’… assumed or ‘personalized-by-others- mistakes are simply blurry glasses that cannot help but not see you and have nothing to do with your actual eyesight… to me one of the greatest hindrances to being objectively ‘You’ is the shyness that occurs ‘around’ the gut (not in it), which keeps oneself from simply putting it out there when it wants out, how the neighbors rebuild their flower beds after one’s 400 lb pet pig is caught is their business, not yours altogether, although a few starter-tomato plants wouldn’t hurt.
:.)
Photograph for the Superintendent:
Beware that ambitious smile that tenaciously hunts down new and old acquaintances, it is always the most conniving social predator of the pack. Collecting promissory notes for insincere goodwill from as many eager patrons as possible is vanity’s version of a blood sport. The prey is slaughtered with conversation between jousts of knives and forks and finally captured as a perpetually expected guest and expecting host that is never touched with heartfelt thanks or ever thanked with heartfelt touch.
#209 nicely written, especially that last sentence: The prey is slaughtered with conversation between jousts of knives and forks and finally captured as a perpetually expected guest and expecting host that is never touched with heartfelt thanks or ever thanked with heartfelt touch.
ton,
maybe you can ask the Sheik to remove your posts where you feel you said too much? It’s a little help perhaps, better than nothing.
I actually have no idea who are the people with initials you mentioned about, maybe this is small consolation many of us do not have a clue.
Sending good thougths your way.
if memory serves (around) 210
#209 nicely written, especially that last sentence: The prey is slaughtered with conversation between jousts of knives and forks and finally captured as a perpetually expected guest and expecting host that is never touched with heartfelt thanks or ever thanked with heartfelt touch.
*******
I don’t know why it so gets on my nerves that the jack of hearts seems to rule the world.
ton–I doubt any outside authorities who read your posts would be able to identify the people with initials. The only ones who could properly identify them were probably around the community enough that they should be aware that these things happened. Of course they may have buffered it out of their consciousness.
xena 213
re: putting toothpaste back…
i’ll go over my posts starting on pg 19… will contact the sheik about editing identifiers… hate to make more work for him… how to contact sheik with this sort of request (?) i’ll figure it out…
uno 206
“…let me know if you change your mind.”
re: going pubic…
if i can obfuscate the identities, i support the use of “my story” for your purposes here. i’ll get back to you if / when a rewrite is in place… and with other ideas for wider exposure.
Dearest Ton,
Your email, has given me much more understanding about you and your wife and…..others. I understand much more of why they are what they are and my ….what is the right word….love or symphaty, no, compassion has increased for you, the women and others…..
I do not believe in holding info back….we already know so much about each other…more then you think.
Something I wanted to share with you, something I was reading by accident…
The endocrine glands, the sexual hormones, react very strongly to the feeling if inability and the “absence of the living”I” center”, but instead of transforming extra energy into self -realization, one allows oneself to be drawn along through the sexual game, in order to fill up the emptiness. Inwardly so small, outwardly so big.
He/She does not love himself. Sex replaces love but it is a bottomless vat.
He’she does not at all feel warm and sheltered.
He is afraid of his feelings, untill he looks for an outlet.
It is good to realize why there are feeling of lust to a child (or younger person.)
will be coninued….
Does this reminds you of Robert Burton?
I am curious to your responses….
re: going pubic…
Can’t you see….nothing to worry about when the pubic area is more important then awakening or being/ or comapssion.
Love to you my friend (s).
215 Another Name
“Something I wanted to share with you, something I was reading by accident…”
there are a lot of different ways of looking at “accidents.”
here’s (just) one…
http://www.shadowdance.com/articles/articlenoaccidents.html
graduates….212 what’s up with the jack of hearts? where did that come from?
212 Graduates
“I don’t know why it so gets on my nerves that the jack of hearts seems to rule the world”
——————
Perhaps because you take the world too seriously.
That and that you think there is a ‘jack of hearts’.
203 Across the River
“We know that her journey to reconcile all these pieces will be immensely difficult, probably more difficult than yours ‘ton.”
If not now then when? Maybe this is her time.
By all means let’s keep this anonymous and general. Certainly everthing will change in a heartbeat.
We should continue jerking off here while the gluttonous rape and the sucking from from the ancient inflictions continues unhindered. Why not it is the American way.
KA (around) 218
graduates….212 what’s up with the jack of hearts? where did that come from?
********
My post @ 209 is my description of the level of superficial emotion that results when people only connect through the shallow interactions of vanity, from the practice of people collecting people just for the sake of trying to stave off the inner emotional emptiness that is there due to a lack of in-depth connection between human beings. There is nothing wrong with emotional interactions through the jack of hearts, but it always seems to be tainted by the social structure that the politics of vanity imposes over everything. Now, it took as many words to explain the intuitive prose as it did to express it.
Graduates “Now, it took as many words to explain the intuitive prose as it did to express it.”
Thank you for reminding me about John Cage. I youtubed (now a verb!) 4’33” and got this at 9minutes 22seconds.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJagb7hL0E
Then I watched it, –really. I’ve read so very, very, – very- much about it but never watched/listened to a full orchestral version of it – or any version of it actually…and …. WOW. No-, ‘wow’ is not a good description. Try it, please! Once you get over the J of H and buffering and the judgment, then actually listen! Just sit and be present and listen. I’m so glad I did.
The commentary at the end IS actually incredibly hysterical tho, so the J of H does come back in – in a Jack Handey (JH….twilight zone!) sort of way. Which sort of reinforces your implied point that commentary is often not the real treasure. But thanks, anyhow, for your short pithy elucidation. :-) (<— that, BTW, is a ‘smiley face’!)
#221 Oh, I thought you were writing about RB.
#218 And thanks, KA, I was going to ask the same thing but you beat me to it.
212 ~
“I don’t know why it so gets on my nerves that the jack of hearts seems to rule the world.”
____________________________
Perhaps, it’s because the ‘Jack of Hearts’ is at the opposite end of the egoism-spectrum (naive-ism vs Tarzan-musk-wonderment-ism), whereas the King of Clubs is at the other, they ‘bounce off one another’, one takes the other too seriously, salivates over the grounded-ness and jungle tenacity of the ‘King of the Jungle’, whereas the other (the King) surmises a kind of secret disdain (after) the ‘happy mouse’ pulls the splinter from it’s paw. (?)
Oh, yes, ‘Tom and Jerry’, ‘Sylvester and Tweedy Bird’, the ‘Coyote and Road Runner’, ‘Elmer Fudd and Bugs Bunny’… etc., etc.
Hey! Robert Burton and all attending Sunday Meetings.
_____________________________________________
:.)
BTW,
Happy Birthday Eliza T… Ya, gotta wonder what’s going on across the street though, yes?
:.)
Unoanimo,
Let me see if I understand the situation…
There is a sodomy cult just down the road in this relatively rural area where there is virtually no patrol cars, where a phoned in complaint to local police might take an hour or more to be responded to, and the current cult members, presumably hundreds of them, each hyper-sensitive to “negativity” and “low alchemy,” freely move around the area and the local population while completely immune to any delivery of insult, harsh words, or any degree of verbal confrontation? No one shouts, “Hey did you have Bob’s wanger up your ass before breakfast?” No one flips them the bird? No one exhibits the least degree of the kind of free speech that America is famous for? Why? Why are the cult members of an organization where the leader is allegedly perpetrating homosexual rape on heterosexuals enjoying such a peaceful reception from people that obviously despise their perverted rituals? What makes the non-cult population of that small town so polite?
If at all possible could you phase your reply in an entirely incomprehensible stream of poetic free association, so that no one but yourself understands a word?
It was said that Moses was the only one to see God
face to face. Only long BE sees divine presence face
to face; it is the “end of looking.”
Love, Robert
St. Augustine: The very vision of God . is the end
of looking.
RB why are you stealing from great man for the sake of your ignorance? I am sure that st. Augustine didn’t mean this…why you deliberately use his words to convey your poor and miserable interpretation? St. Augustine and Long be? If only he could speak…
This is one of the 100000 examples of your manipulation. Leave the quotation of dead man and be brave enough to speak for yourself…..or better why don’t you use the words of someone who is alive? …….and see what they think? ….ah sorry forgot you are the only living conscious being! eheheheh……
Graduates 212 “I don’t know why it so gets on my nerves that the jack of hearts seems to rule the world.”
That is your mechanicality. But you knew that …….
Dear Graduates,
I have been wondering, why you react so harsly for months now…
Why you info goes know where in the sense of love, compassion, support,
Always in the opposite…
What is your inner hurt…why do you cover your pain with more…
How much different does this make you from a pain like Robert Burton who was abused as a child by several? Still manifest this and hurts so many others…can expresss love but goes onto hurting others as he has been hurt?
Tell me without covering up your pain.
Just where is your hurt and unfinished business (emotional) Like all the men and women dear, Acros the river, and now there is a change to heal and finish some emotional business…
As you can tell I do believe in expressing and sharing your hurts like Laura, Ton and Whale rider did and others…
Well who am I…Hugs and love and hug yourself…
Another Name 228
******
I don’t know if you’re the same nut that leaves a comment on my GF page almost every day, but if you are you need to find another project.
(third try)
Another Name 228
******
I don’t know if you’re the same nut that leaves a comment on my GF page almost every day, but if you are you need to find another project.
Someone said time is a factor.
Here’s to time as the FOF’s unavoidable revelator. Honest production values, no hurry, and no doubt of the ultimate outcome.
Just found this blog. Wow! Names and stories bring back lots of memories. Joined in 1974 in Santa Barbara. Joel and Carol were the leaders. Met Charles R there also. Moved to the ranch soon after and then sent to Detroit in 1976 to help to open a center there. Never was a fan of Robert. Always had a bit of suspicion about him, and his prophecies and his reading of meanings about his greatness into things. Of course I did not share any of this, as I assumed it was my own stuff to work on and did not want to bring negative ideas to anyone else’s work. Never felt part of the ‘inner circle’. Not sorry for the time I spent in the school. It was the ideas I was already attracted to initially, and I would say that I met many of the most wonderful people I had ever met in my life. I feel like I learned a lot from Joel and Miles and so many, many others, and I thank them all for that. Bruce and Spencer I remember from my time at the ranch, though they may not remember me. I stayed in the background-(non-existence?) – just a worker bee. Heard rumor of R’s sexual activity not long before leaving, and verified very soon after with another ex-student who had been one of R’s entourage for a short time. I assumed wrongly that more people knew what was going on. My own reasons for leaving, which I had decided upon before even hearing of R’s sexual activities, were partly financial, but mostly I felt strongly that there was just something wrong. I could not define it to myself well at the time, but something inside just knew. Joel – it is so good to know you are still out there somewhere, you were a very positive influence on my life. Bruce – I appreciate your wit and quickness of mind- thanks. And Spencer, I remember you from when you played your role at the lodge, and appreciate the work you are now doing and the ideas you have shared; however you did not wash all the dishes. I used to wash the china and glassware from R’s dinners 3-4 nights a week. Anyway the blog brings so many memories and a lot wondering about so many lovely people. The blog makes me wonder once again whether R conned everyone from the beginning or did he just get lost and forget that he had stuff he not worked out yet, and then just could not let the money and the opportunities to feed his desires go. He was so dishonest with all of us. But I cannot help but think of G’s idea that there is no such thing as conscious evil. Robert has harmed people and I hope it comes to an end, but do not assign to him more power than a sleeping being could possibly have. Thanks for being there.
228
Dear Another Name,
Thank you for your concern about my hurt and unfinished emotional business as well as everybody elses hurt and unfinished emotional business. This is truly what you do!
Simply put, I’m not much into group therapy. If that reads to you “hurt and unfinished emotional business”, then so be it. If your comment was an answer to my post 203, I stand by the understanding I expressed there.
I appreciate you, AN, and call you a friend. I don’t consider either one of us lacking simply because our experiences are our own and not necessarily the same. I know we both wish to heal with our words.
======================================================
220
Dear Yesri Baba,
Don’t worry, there’s no way that ancient inflictions continue unhindered. It may be true that this is her time.
======================================================
With Love to and for us all.
And here is my gift of the J of H to the FOF’s unavoidable revelator.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rVaw8WivNr8
Oh and it’s now time to reveal myself. I am Sally Black for anybody who didn’t know already.
Graduates wrote ~
“Unoanimo,
Let me see if I understand the situation…”
_________________________________
Yes, let’s see, indeed…
__________________
“There is a sodomy cult just down the road in this relatively rural area where there is virtually no patrol cars, where a phoned in complaint to local police might take an hour or more to be responded to,”
_____________________
Actually a policeman lives a stones throw from Oregon House Grocery, that is, about a 2 minute high speed drive to get to the gate house ‘guarding’ the “Sodomy Cult” from the ‘Cork Police’…
Plopped down in the middle of the Sierra Nevada Foothills, surrounded by rattlesnakes, bears, mountain lions, bobcats, robert burtons, foxes, deer and dears, lizards and honey bees (that are not indigenous to the United States),
views at an altitude of 1800 feet, where every land owner has no less than 5 acres each, is hardly “relatively rural”, yet, unless you’re from the amazon jungle, I guess you could call it that then.
It takes about 10-15 minutes (or less if the policeman is eating donuts at the Oregon House Grocery) to respond to a call; the main ‘police station’ is in Brownsville, a 15 minute downhill drive to Oregon House.
You can be sure that a “phoned in complaint” is jumped on like a maggot to an old potato; the local police and Yuba County Police Department are ready to pounce at any little china smash via the bull in the shop… They used to park there patrol vehicles right outside of ‘Isis’ and wait for people to get onto public roads drunk from Robert Burton’s emotionally placebo-ik receptions, till a certain lawyer put a stop to it… when T. called the police on M. concerning her daughter, I would fathom that it certainly did not take an hour to get there when one of the policemen only lived a 2 minute drive from her and is always on call.
________________________________
“and the current cult members, presumably hundreds of them, each hyper-sensitive to “negativity” and “low alchemy,” freely move around the area and the local population while completely immune to any delivery of insult, harsh words, or any degree of verbal confrontation? No one shouts, “Hey did you have Bob’s wanger up your ass before breakfast?” No one flips them the bird? No one exhibits the least degree of the kind of free speech that America is famous for? Why?”
________________________
Graduates, wow, you’ve been watching too many movies my friend… I guess you forgot about the end of the Jonestown Documentary, where Jim Jones orders his ‘devout followers’ to go to the landing strip and murder every one possible via the Governor’s investigative party, the Waco situation, the rumors that Fellowship ‘dears’ close to Robert Burton are ‘nuts and heavily armed’; I mean, the looks of ‘Isis’ in the middle of such a community is not so different from a mafia drug cartel’s mansion on the outskirts of a poverty ridden city; yet, there’s hundreds of ‘little Isis’s’ everywhere, thanks to Robert Burton’s famous ‘tea parties’ at students houses via the auction item bids; see, students remodel and build their houses with ‘The Teacher’s Visiting One Day’ in mind, not to mention Robert Burton ‘assisting’ the building design of ‘certain mini-flag-pole devotees’ in their house design per Robert Burton’s plans for them and their house’s ‘function’.
And truly, around here, there’s not that many ‘mountain folk’ to stir up trouble, although there was two guys that ruffed up the security guard one night, and a few instances of vandalism and ‘certain someones’ coming through the ‘back-gate’ entrance to ‘The Property’ and stealing various quantities of wine, mechanical equipment and a 2000 pound ceramic kiln (that one’s my favorite) since it was stored two stories up and took a fork lift to achieve ‘I-got-it-ness’.
All of the ‘others’ have families, some of their children attend the same schools as the Fellowship of Friends, some of the rougher ‘non-members’ are even employed by one of Robert’s boys (unbeknown to them)… etc., etc.
So, too, many locals understand that Robert Burton is a malignant tumor on the end of a dead elephants phallus, sucking up nutrients from the rotting corpses sepsis ooze;
they do not really dig so deep as to wrap their wiseacring around the idea of holding all Fellowship of Friends members responsible for ‘The Teachers’ actions, mainly due to ‘comfort and ignorance is bliss-ness’…
IF something were to happen to ‘one of their own’, then, everything you are wondering about as to why it does not occur, would then, certainly be answered by an affirmative ‘all hell breaking loose’, it’s sorta medieval up here, guns stay loaded and bear traps sharpened, lines are drawn and people simply wait for who ever it is that crosses that line to achieve eight foot deep horizontal statehood… It’s a Rural Thing… IF enough people made enough noise, others would follow, it’s a powder keg waiting for a spark,
maybe you should take some time away from wherever you live and vacation up here for a month of two and we can camo up and do the Apocalypse Now thingy, maybe even plant some remote controlled tape recorders around the academy and whenever Robert’s lights go out, we can sound some sort of recording, like, say, something crunching through leaves or heavy breathing, or the pre-recoil of an M60 grenade launcher (?) Let me know.
____________________________________________
“Why are the cult members of an organization where the leader is allegedly perpetrating homosexual rape on heterosexuals enjoying such a peaceful reception from people that obviously despise their perverted rituals? What makes the non-cult population of that small town so polite?”
______________________
They make themselves, ask them; I would say it’s simply fear of a preemptive retaliation and too, you gotta understand the 37 years of Oregon House Psyche programming; whereas Robert Burton’s actions are basically ‘covered-up’ in the consciences of ‘non-members’ exactly like it is covered up and buffered away by the ‘members’ of the Fellowship of Friends; they simply say, “It’s not my problem, it’s a SEX-Thing.” And of course, in a country where ‘sex’ is the most buffered and most misunderstood of all natural freedoms, go figure, people choose the ‘dark age/new age approach’ over their consciences… Then there’s that “I gotta have drama and something to gossip about opiate”… If you get rid of Robert Burton, the ‘chosen ones’ won’t have anything to transform and go to heaven for, right?
Whew, what a Nut Tree! Oh, and don’t forget, money talks up here and for the most part the Fellowship of Friends is the 4th largest tax contributor in all of Yuba County, albeit that they still owe, they do pay and the Fellowship of Friends memberships pay to slip ‘psychic opiates’ in the non-members ‘Town Hall Meetings’… Yep, Fear and Money, that Robert Burton’s legacy and his ‘followers’ invest heavily to keep the tumor looking ‘odd’, so to hope that someday it’ll be a ‘boy’, just like his father…
___________________________________
___________________________________
“If at all possible could you phase your reply in an entirely incomprehensible stream of poetic free association, so that no one but yourself understands a word?”
__________________________________
Hopefully, Graduates, I already did this above, let me know if you understood anything I wrote, if so, well, I didn’t write it, someone else did.
_________________
Love to you all.
234
The local economy, land values etc. of the Oregon House area is largely dependent on the FOF for it’s increase and stabilization, regardless of what the locals think, and they know it. They don’t want it to return to what is was like in the 70’s. The newer businesses on the roads couldn’t survive.
On the other hand I could also see the possibility of some unknown event that would cause the non-member locals to get frenzied and easily swing to the other side, even if temporarily (back to the money criteria).
Bruce ~
Remember that guy who was considering moving to the Oregon House area (he posted on the blog)… ? … He googled ‘Oregon House’ and (hee hee) found this blog site, read and decided to move elsewhere; now, there’s some ‘preventive maintenance’… Yes, land value, yet… well; soon enough Yuba County officials and various California officials will have to start asking some ‘tough questions’, like, if they don’t do something now about the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burton, can they afford to simply ‘wait till he dies’ so to possibly have ‘blood on their hands’ for choosing ‘cash’ and ‘land values’ over certain ‘Christian Values’ (?) That, of course, would haunt them; nothing a six pack and some Duncan Donuts won’t take care of for awhile though…. mmmmm, Heineken and Duncan Donuts!
:.)
Uno ” Fellowship of Friends is the 4th largest tax contributor in all of Yuba County, albeit that they still owe, they do pay and the Fellowship of Friends memberships pay to slip ‘psychic opiates’ in the non-members ‘Town Hall Meetings’…”
???
KA
There’s ‘Oregon House’ Community Center (Town Hall) meetings nearly once a month, Fellowship of Friends ‘members’ attend those meetings so to ‘help’ concentrate on the ‘more important issues’ (detouring attention away from Robert Burton’s ‘personal issues’ and on to more important ‘in the now’ issues, like, more post office boxes at the Oregon House Post Office or a high speed internet petition from AT & T… Whooooo! Gotta have that high speed HD-TV connection, not the possible HIV connection Robert Burton is providing).
And yes, the Fellowship of Fiends puts ‘gold’ in Yuba County’s ‘war-chest-coffers’; how do you think Allison was able to ‘sweet talk’ the Fire-chief into allowing the Theatron to get it’s ‘limited use permit’?
After all, I do not think she’s his type,
albeit, money and hillbilly-aristocratic-demur-tours are highly slurped up by the unsuspecting wanna-be’s in Yuba County politics…
Oh, and don’t forget the complimentary wine the Fellowship of Friends ships out to it’s ‘moon-food-supporters’;
hummmm, it’s like feeding a cow ice-cream and cheese to get it fat for slaughter… Oh, the ironies of mountain life!
:.)
unoanimo 234
*******
Do the locals know that Bob and his followers worship the number 6-6-6 or something like that and take their revelations from animal droppings or something like that? Do you ever go to the local churches on Sunday and tell them about Bob and the mob, because they might not be so polite once they understand that Bob is the antichrist or something like that?
My guess would be that after all these years RB’s “secret” has made the rounds of the non-member locals as well. The Appeal Democrat had followed the various sex trials sporadically. Many of the locals are not idiots, they know what’s going on, but again one returns to what is best for one’s self, and money’s way up there.
An interesting note: I was speaking to a reporter I knew at The Union (the NC/Grass Valley paper) a few years ago. I had noticed an influx of advertising and Op Eds concerning the wonderful FOF winery, ballet, concerts etc. I asked why his was the only paper that hasn’t covered any of the “news” about the FOF. He gave me one ridiculous argument after another (they knew about the “stuff” but intentionally didn’t believe it) and I knocked down every argument as pure bull shit. He finally said “we don’t like to bite the hand that feeds us”. His one true statement.
Even the Appeal Democrat leaves The Union in the dust when it comes to integrity.
Waiting for my first submission to be o.k.’d by the moderator, and already feel the need to add to it. When I wrote it I had only read a smattering of comments by a variety of people, most of which were speaking about the ‘system’ and other paths and schools of thought. I saw some familiar names and was excited for some reason by the idea of those people of long ago speaking about what was a powerful part of my life, and obviously their’s as well. As I went back and read more and more entries and began to see and feel a little of the pain that this obviously damaged man has caused, I felt almost guilty by what I had written. While it is true that because of the friendships I formed and the rather intense learning about myself that I experienced, that I do not personally regret the time I spent there, I will have to say that I am sorry that I contributed to this man in any way, given the level of pain that he created in some of these innocent people’s lives. I guess I have to feel lucky that I was not a target for him, and that I stayed in the background, and had very few meetings or personal moments with him. As I said in my first comment, I always had reservations about him, but I was able to lay them aside for what I felt like I was learning and because of other students I had come to trust and in my own way to love. I remember when I was in Detroit and the initial body of students who had been sent there were being called back to California, I had requested to stay there longer. Linda K had said she would have to ask R and then get back to me. When she called back she said that R thought it better that I come back to the ranch. I knew in my heart that he could not have cared less about whether I was in Detroit or in California, and that his decision was not based on his caring about my evolution. Still I tried to be a ‘good student’ and do as I was told. When I got back to Calif and the ranch I could sense that things were moving ever more in a direction that I found difficult to follow. Things had become more strict in ways that seemed like something more than just trying to create friction and work for the students. More and more money was wanted. There appeared to be less and less compassion evident, from some of those in power. It was also then (1978) that I heard the first rumors of R’s little games with some of his chosen male students. I did not know, of course, that these were not activities between assenting adults. I assumed that if it was going on that it was what these students had wanted also. I still certainly thought it odd, but felt in no position to judge. I think one of the reasons I left the school was prompted in part by something R had said once. I will have to paraphrase,but it was along the lines of,
“If someone should be fortunate enough to meet a conscious school and then leave it, it would be better if he had never been born.” I remember cringing when I heard that and knew right then that there was the leverage of fear being used on people. When I think of this man leveraging young men into sexual acts they did not wish to engage in, by holding the possibility of spiritual progress in front of them, I have to think that very serious crimes were committed.
Anyway I am still glad to hear the names I recognize, and I wonder about so many other gentle souls that I met there. I just hope that the healing that is needed by those who were hurt, is coming to them. If I have any advice to offer it would be to try and let go. There is nothing gained by trying to analyze darkness. Darkness will never lead to any light, darkness is the absence of light. Nothing sane can come from trying to understand insanity. Insanity, by its very nature, makes no sense. My best wishes to all of you.
Graduates ~
“or something like that”…
_______________________
Look, Graduates, I am not too sure how much ‘street smarts’ your particular ‘spirit’ has gathered in its earthy journeys so far, I would assume, not too much…
Hills people don’t roll their dice based on “something like that”…
Truly, ‘The Sopranos’ are much more compelling to verify in the moment than wiseacring about one man’s title as “Antichrist”;
after all, this ain’t up state New York, it’s California, there’s at least 100 men and women competing for the title of Antichrist… so, go figure.
You seem to be ‘out in left field’ on this one; I’d advise you to ask more and tell less or at least give deeper consideration to the type of essences that live in such external spaces as the Sierra Nevada Foothills…
Just down the road is one of the most prolific producers of Methamphetamines in the United States; Brownsville is it’s own ‘state’ (thanks to the Declaration of Independence as interpreted by a Saturnine country of 50 different psychic inner states).
So, unless there’s some ole fashioned ‘Hell Raising’, then, as Bruce suggested; Yuba County officials would rather have a ‘hand job’ from Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends’ than nothing at all… are there any decisions one can make not requiring a mirror?
I mean, so much of this is about ‘doubt’ and the pain body need to reciprocate ‘drama’ for Drama’s sake… nothing is sacred because no one has earned enough ‘balls in the wind-ness’ to be called ‘self-sacred’,
everyone expects something at the end of the day; conscience is thwarted by a few ballet tickets, a call or two from T. Richard’s Ranch (whose wife was a ‘member’), etc.
I know I am going to get ‘poo hitting the fan’ for this one, yet, so what?
So ~
what you are actually asking is for people to sacrifice their second state ‘grocery list’ for some third state ‘poverty and hand-job-celibacy’…
It will not happen, UNLESS, there’s so much bitching that the noise of it becomes ‘uncomfortable’ and starts to bleed outside of California, call more Democrats and less Republicans…
Who knows, this cesspool of cults that California has for decades supported with ‘her’ New Age, Gold Alchemy Tolerance may indeed be turned another direction,
after all, that’s what Robert Burton has done for 37 years, certainly, in Arkansas, he would have been lynched in weeks…
Yet, California is stuck in some sort of time frame and cannot see the toilet for its big “but”…
“But” is nearly always connected to ulterior motives and money…
Make a Democrat excited about a Republicans premature orgasm and you might stir up the pot, until then, money and vanity will prevail,
it’s never about the individual in such a scale as countries and governments, it’s about what serves the future, not the present now, and since the future is 100% wiseacring, you can figure what sort of logic supports such investments;
until one changes the now, nothing in the future will ‘move’ one millimeter, real conscious will has no religion of yesterday (hell) or tomorrow (heaven)…
This is Earth, people are reflections of astrology and very little keeps them from following it’s power, conscience is a beginning, one of our most blessed and most plain colored choices available…
No body is going to go where their being cannot automatically go at any given ‘moment’ in relation to now,
‘heaven’ or ‘hell’ ?
silly illusions for silly magicians who are afraid to lay off a few million rabbits and burn the corresponding ‘black top hats’…
Nothing will occur until heaven changes hell’s diapers, or at least, learns to set what is in a crib out to its rightful pasture…
______________
l.t.y.a.
<deleted at the author’s request
Graduates ~
Get off your lazy azz and go to the churches yourself and stop making more ‘positive suggestions’ than your own days of inaction equal in number…
Having lived in the O.H. area for the last nine years or so, I supposed I can say a few things on the subject of the FoF’s relationship to those in the surrounding communities. I’ve tried doing business in the area (unsuccessfully), and have had numerous contact with locals.
The prevailing attitude is “live and let live.” You leave us alone and we’ll do the same for you. Many think that Robert is a sex offender or child molester. They see rich people taking advantage of cheap foreign labor. They grumble about the FoF’s habit of snubbing local laws, as when surreptitiously constructing the Theatron.
But as long as ‘FoF people’ and ‘Bob’ don’t directly encroach upon their turf, or threaten their families or children, there’s not much to be done, especially given the fact that the FoF has helped over the years to drive up property prices in the area, and to drive out pockets of drug-fueled poverty.
The more liberal-minded (and there are a few of them!) appreciate indirect benefits to the community, such as the Lewis Carroll School, which opens its doors to all.
A few students have found it very rewarding to open up to the communities that surround Isis, and have discovered interesting and rewarding contacts and friendships. Yes, Dorothy, there IS a world out there!
From the perspective of a hypothetical, local, non-FoF property owner, I might just enjoy envisioning the day when the FoF just quietly disappears, leaving its alchemical imprint more or less intact, with some nice and friendly people in the area, with property prices intact, with a nice selection of organic products at the Oregon House store, and with less speeding up and down the country roads.
I personally do not think it a right triad to inflame the locals against the Fellowship as a way to hasten its demise. Really bad karma, IMHO. I’m for a quiet implosion — gone with a whisper, not a bang. Then, just the sound of crickets, and maybe a few rabbits running around with a coyote or two in chase.
Thank you my2bits for your realistic assessment.
Thanks my bits for your input…
The train is going and I do think that time will do the job for the many changes the fellowship of friends is going through and it is not yet finished.
P. L. is quite an interesting story and that train is going…I will keep you informed over time.
Love to you.
Dear Graduate…
I am not the “nut” that sends you an email everyday…
( a walut or an almond? mhhhh)
I try to ignore yours most of the time…
Enjoy and love yourself.
Regarding property values, they aren’t what they used to be in Dobbins / OH, are they?
People all across Yuba County are also much less naive now about what is going on in the FOF compound, and the scale and nature of the crime.
To me the question is not whether to inflame the locals. After all, with all the recent FOF defections there may be as many ex-members now in the OH community than never-members.
I think anyone needs to do whatever it is that brings them closure or absolves their conscience. When people act from conscience, the karmic repercussions are not likely to be negative even if the superficial results backfire. For myself, if someone organized a picket line at the gatehouse or the OH store I would probably show up, though I might not be able or willing to organize it.
Above all I believe it is important not to sink to the level of cynicism we can now clearly see in the history and ongoing actions of the FOF and Robert Burton. Too much intentional insincerity (out here in life we call this “lying”), which sometimes includes the silence of fear or complacency.
Joseph G
unoanimo @ 243
Graduates ~
Get off your lazy azz and go to the churches yourself and stop making more ‘positive suggestions’ than your own days of inaction equal in number…
*********
Friend, I’ve been publicly speaking out against Burton and his false school since about 1995, saying many of the things that are now being said on this blog. Where were you?
To Joseph, your post #248:
“I think anyone needs to do whatever it is that brings them closure or absolves their conscience. When people act from conscience, the karmic repercussions are not likely to be negative even if the superficial results backfire.”
Dear Joseph,
I have admired and appreciated your posts on this blog, and send you my thanks. However, I think you are treading on thin ice with this statement of yours. Basically, you are saying that revenge is karma-free. I don’t think so. It is the act itself, and the motive behind it, that affect karma — not the result. Conscience is a tricky matter…
Still, I do appreciate your position. The idea of pickets at the gatehouse or the O.H. store fascinates me, but I basically think it’s just pissing into the wind.
Hello again, Joseph.
As to property values, everyone in the area knows that there are dozens and dozens of homes for sale and no buyers. Still, folks in the area have hopes that this situation will turn around, in a year or two. It’s not just a local phenomenon, it’s regional and national. Everyone is afraid. But it is these ‘imagined’ values that provide a “cushion of imagination” for people’s instinctive centers, and it works to keep things ‘civil.’ If this cushion disappears, there will be disruption, of course.
About Karma…
Yesterday i read Katie Byron who said…why do you not stop your inner war, your violence to your self, your own raping by stop thinking violent thougts….
So in, so out
Things are already happening in OH without us doing too much actvity..
The wind is already blowing in a certain direction
It is already happening, now in front of our eyes.
Water trickles softly and makes a big inpact on the long run in the stone….
There seem to be some people who are in FOF and are struggling with the decision to possibly leave, and there are the posts where former members desribe their anguish when they finally left. It is a difficult time. I knew I was leaving and had decided to leave in a manner other than just disappearing. I was living in SF at the time and going to the weekly meetings that were led by Stella and another student whose name I no longer remember. They would take personal questions and problems during the intermission of the meeting and I waited in line to speak with them. I remember telling them that I was leaving the school, and the male went on and on about the mistake I was making and how my possible evolution was now reduced to almost nothing. He pleaded with me to reconsider my decision, telling me how much the financial penalty for re-instatement was at that time, but that it might change and could become impossible for me to re-join. Stella had not said a word. Finally she interrupted her co-leader and told him that she was pretty sure I had not come here to be talked out of leaving, but to say good-bye. I nodded to her and she took my hand and wished me the best of luck on my journey. The admiration I already had for her grew considerably in that moment.
It was a difficult time. For five years I had immersed myself in the school and essentially had no friends outside of it. I felt very alone for quite some time, and had dreams of the school nightly for many, many months. In my mind there was the thought of at least the possibility that perhaps I had made a very large mistake. I had trusted something deeper than my thinking processes about leaving, and I had to return again and again to that part of myself. There is no ‘only game in town’, and any group or church that tries to sell you that idea is suffering from a delusion. Everything you need is already within you. We are a part of the Mind of God, and we have never been anywhere else. Our problem seems to be that we have imagined that we are something separate from that.
244 my2bits/249 Joseph
Thanks for the excellent posts.
On the topic of “shall I be active in relation to accelerating the demise of the FoF, or shall I sit back and watch it happen, or a bit of both?”, I’m a bit confused by the introduction of the concept of “karmic repercussions”. Doesn’t a phrase like this remove the issue from this moment/reality? It’s usually taken to mean something like: if I do a misdeed in this life I will suffer for it in a later life. Probably a fantasy, right?
Or do you mean you might regret your actions later on in this life?
In any case, it might be more worthwhile to look at what one personally feels in this moment about the question, and not be too concerned about an imaginary future. It’s fine either way, as far as I can see.
best regards, Charles
Hi my2bits,
Sorry to have yet again given the impression that revenge is my own motive or would be specifically admirable to me in any way. Sometime back I just wanted to make the point that the FOF preaches a culture of inaction based on scrupulously labeling one’s own motivation as suspect and inherently flawed (because the i’s are not real, and anyway all the worse for you if you’re right). It has now become my view that taking action for plenty of the right reasons is better than total non-responsiveness to a clear evil in order to avoid leaking out some inadvertant negativity along the way.
I agree that conscience is a tricky matter, which is the reason I have decided never to trust mine in the hands of any third party from now on, as I did for several decades in the FOF. There is no collective conscience; it is a contradiction of terms. We each must make our own decisions.
About picketing, it’s just so deliciously anti-Robert, anti-Linda, anti-gold-alchemy, anti-bullshit…yet 100% all American! The FOF was born out of sixties San Francisco. It could be fun to bring some of that old sixties irreverance back to its very doorstep. Pissing in the wind? Probably. But at least a demonstration of some sort would create tangible, highly visible action outside this blog or the arcane legal and governmental circles, which all take enormous time and resources without any guarantee of success. Who knows what (or how many) such an action might attract, even if only as a symbolic gesture?
Certainly not a burning issue for me BTW. Just a fun idea.
Hope you are well.
Joseph G
For greatest impact the picketing at the FOF Gatehouse should be simultaneous with picketing at the Post Office and the Oregon House Store.
Hi Charles,
My own view of karma is less about bad or good things that may happen later on, including regrets, and more about an alignment of action with my spiritual aspirations in the here and now. Repercussions will come one way or the other, but if this truer alignment is in place I am more likely to be moving in the right direction, from a spiritual perspective rather than as a movement through time. I have always thought of karma as something in the present, like the ocean old fish swims in.
Not something I am accustomed to try to put into words. Sorry if it came across sounding like psycho-babble.
Love to you both,
Joseph G
254 Joseph G
About picketing, it’s just so deliciously anti-Robert, anti-Linda, anti-gold-alchemy, anti-bullshit…yet 100% all American!
The FOF was born out of sixties San Francisco. It could be fun to bring some of that old sixties irreverance back to its very doorstep.
… a demonstration of some sort would create tangible, highly visible action… Who knows what (or how many) such an action might attract, even if only as a symbolic gesture?
Yes, yes, yes.
256 Joseph.
Understood!
x Chas
Re: Joseph’s post #254:
Thanks for the explanation and elaboration, Joseph. I think that I took your statement about “bringing closure” and “absolving one’s conscience” in a broader sense that you meant it, and also added confusion to the discussion by introducing the concept of ‘karma.’
Yes, I too am fascinated by a simultaneous picketing of the gatehouse, the O.H. store, and post office. It does have the distinct, invigorating feel of 60’s irreverence!
See ya.
Once the personal wounds start healing it is not easy to want to have anything else to do with the Fellowship but to walk easily along and let it be. I intentionally wish to stand against the Is within me that would rather choose that very easy path and hence am very much with Joseph on the issue of taking responsibility by acting against an institution I know is hurting people. The negative Karma for me, would be much more towards what is willing to relax about it. The feeling of “I couldn´t care less what happens to the many that think The Fellowship is worth their lives” is surfacing very strongly and if it weren´t for the fact that I have very clearly seen how impossible it is to realize that there are other possibilities in life than being abused in the Fellowship, while one is inside, I would be happy to let that feeling of not caring, take all its force. I do think that too many people inside will allow the Fellowship to continue using and abusing them if they are not helped to let go of it for at least a couple of months or years.
Who are the people in the Fellowship that are in danger that could be helped if the Fellowship is seriously closed or questioned by the law?
All the young people. A whole generation of young people.
All the potential students who could be ripped off for one, two, three months or years before they start having serious doubts or have the luck to come across the blog. Particularly new students in centers and particularly vulnerable those in the third world who don´t even access the internet.
Older students who have doubts and fear of loosing the unnecessary suffering that they´ve become so accostumed to (used to?).
Those students who have crystallized in the Fellowship are the ones that need most help but that will probably be the least likely to take it. These are, fortunately, a minority.
In considering legal action it is worth considering that only 25% of the people inside the Fellowship will be seriously hurt by its closure. These 25% will suffer a great deal from having deceived themselves so badly but who can stand and say that it is better to let people continue being deceived for the rest of their lives than helping them not only to stop being deceived but to stop hurting others with their deceiving?
If these 25% of students still go and open another Fellowship after the Fellowship is stopped no one can avoid that but those of us who feel responsible for what is happening inside will have done our best to stop at least this phase of the Fellowship. The 25% of students that will be most harmed are indeed older people who will probably not have enough strength to start again.
These people could hopefully still find enough protection from what is left from a huge law suit on the Fellowship or a certain amount of money could be forseen within such a lawsuit for these people under certain conditions.
I do not think the aim is to harm anyone. On the contrary, it is to stop the harm.
Those who have done the most harm in the Fellowship are themselves the most harmed. The perpetrators are the worst victims of their own invention.
What harms would be really stopped or controlled?
The use and abuse of young men.
The use and abuse of people from all over the world who are indoctrinated to believe that if they pay to make their own effort to do first line they will develop consciousness and after thirty years of not developing any are told that they did not make enough efforts and are not in the School or in this life to change anything but themselves.
The use and abuse of people on salary who work for years in
jobs that finally don´t even give them the minimal protection current in the United States and find themselves after thirty years of working for the Fellowship without a job or having to
beg Robert for a different arrangement who continues to delight in their dependence to him.
These dependance to Robert and the Fellowship is what many of the 25% of the Fellowship are so afraid of letting go of because it directly affects their instinctive needs. Robert knows that he continues to count on these students submission because they are too vulnerable instinctively to let go of the Fellowship. These situation is as denagrating and inconsiderate as any in a dictatorship. It is far from a conscious school or anything even just simply decent.
To anyone who doubts the reasons for my acting in this direction thinking I am doing it out of some kind of revenge against Girard or anybody else, all I can say is that I love Girard and feel that although I much suffered while being with him he did not intentionally harm me. He harmed me terribly because he is much damaged himself. This is why I consider him and all the other inner circle students in similar conditions, seriously dangerous people who will continue to harm others if they are not stopped. They have learnt to buffer student´s suffering to keep feeding Robert´s needs.
It is true that I feel more compassion for Girard than for any body else in the Fellowship of Friends. I am not trying to stop the Fellowship with even the slightest hope that our marriage will continue. Our marriage is over, and I am very grateful to the blog for showing up in time enough for me to grab on to it and let go of both Girard and the Fellowship in whose association I was much suffering.
In fact I do not think anyone in the Fellowship is INTENTIONALLY doing anyone else any harm. It is precisely this fact, that no one is realizing the harm that they are doing to others what makes the Fellowship a very dangerous place to be connected with.
To be even more precise, some of the harms to the individual students that could be avoided if the Fellowship is stopped are:
Loss of personal integrity:
Feeling unworthy in a community that has no room for the individual´s expression.
Having to allow the prostitution of young men to be able to belong to the Fellowship.
Having to pay a sum of money as the only expression of one´s value to belong to the Fellowship.
If you are a female, having to accept a subordinate position to men.
If you are a male, having to assume a superior position towards women (both are equally damaging even if false personality enjoys it for too long).
Loss of Money
It is an irony to have to pay so much money to loose so much of one’s self while being convinced that one is recovering or remembering one’s self.
The effects of so much loss of integrity or self respect are not easy to recover from but hopefully it will take us all years and not lifetimes to recover.
The effects of loosing respect for other’s integrity are so damaging that they develop into the cruelty of allowing people
to be abused without noticicing their suffering. These is what is happening in theFellowship of Friends. This is what I seriously consider worth working against.
Thank you for reading and sharing.
The pages concerning the handling of monies already presented on the blog are very revealing. Thank you for that effort.
255
“For greatest impact the picketing at the Fellowship of Friends Gatehouse should be simultaneous with picketing at the Post Office and the Oregon House Store.”
______________________________
‘You Know’ this is just the sort of stuff that Abe G. and Robert B. loves to hear, picketing the gatehouse, the post office and the oregon house grocery, LOL;
You guys, that’s been done before and the ‘real areas’ go untouched, think outside the box;
If ‘we’ want results, picket the Sacramento Court House, the Yuba County Health Department, the Yuba County Court House, the Sacramento Department of Human Affairs, etc. Then hit Oregon House with what’s left over; picketing Oregon House just crystallizes the idea that “It’s their problem” even more, if anything it separates Oregon House from the rest of the world and makes the lungs of the body smaller and more hyper, whose liable to have a heart attack licking a lollipop.
:.)
261 unoanimo
“If ‘we’ want results, picket the Sacramento Court House, the Yuba County Health Department, the Yuba County Court House, the Sacramento Department of Human Affairs, etc.”
So, unoanimo, will you be organizing, participating, leading?
Reading this last posts reminds me of a popular phrase ‘what you resist persists’.
I am not a fan of the resistance. It’s not ever proven to be that successful.
I am a fan of emotional support. And I will always be there for anyone interested.
As some of you are aware I grew up here, my parents have live here for 43 years in Dobbins. Me being 53 I joined FOF a couple of years ago for around six or seven months. I had to quite for money reasons and my husbands health.
When I joined I was FULLY AWARE of FOF history it made no difference nor was it the cause of me quiting.
I believe in “being present”. Yea there is a chapter in one book I totally disagree with that I discuss a little here on the blogg months ago.
I’m actually looking into the chance of returning to FOF and I will explain why.
Because I was a local first then a pass member of FOF my husband and I get verbally harass just for sitting on our front porch. If we mowed our lawn its the F-word the fingers fly up in the air by neighbors in the trailer court beside us. Why because I choose to join FOF a few years ago. They are upset cause I’m an ex cult member in their eyes.
I will educate you how first hand Yuba County Sheriff Department handles the problems most of the time they do not response or they take HOURS to response. The Yuba County Sheriff Department SUPPORTS their harrassment of myself and my husband. The same goup of people who are doing the harrassing form the group “Neighborhood watch/Block Watch in Dobbins/Oregon House. Oh yeah did I forget to tell you both my husband are disable.
The last time we call for a Officer a person came up to our fence with a object in his hand screaming at us, guess what when the Officer finally arrived do you know what he said. Oh he’s a friend of mine! We demanded charges on this guy,we were told NO REPORT would even be written.
A few months ago I was a witness in a assult with a deadly weapon to make long story short. Because I testifed against guy the Judge ordered him to stay 300 yards ago from me in a Criminal Protective Order. The guy didn’t stay away from me. In fact I videoed him driving in front of our house, on the videoed you can hear my husband’s voice staying that’s him. Yuba County Sheriff Department DOES NOTTHING, why because he is a friend of someone next door to us.
In short the locals know about the history of FOF. In short the Sheriff Department only protects the ones who breaks the law.
Do I miss FOF yes I do, I miss being around people who don’t JUDGE YOU.
I miss being around people who really showed how deeply they care about their work in the school.
Mary ~
You wrote ~
“Do I miss Fellowship of Friends, yes I do, I miss being around people who don’t JUDGE YOU. I miss being around people who really showed how deeply they care about their work in the school.”
_______________________________________________
Hello Mary,
Yes, this “care about their work” many of us may miss, yet, even ex-students ‘care about their work’ too, has ‘self-remembering’ changed since you left the Fellowship of Friends?
There are hundreds upon hundreds that feel the same way as you do, yet, on a deeper level Mary, this is a trap and IMO, it’s a magnetic center trap at that;
For me to you, one question would be ~
How many times does one need to lie to oneself in order to tell another the truth?
_________________
So much along the path is a sort of monkish self-hood, it’s even a bit ‘soft-selfish’ in a way, we draw lines in the sand and as long as the demon’s shadow does not cross that line, what ever happens ‘on the other side’ is not one’s ‘esoteric business’ because of course ‘one is above human matters, moon-ethics, moon-humanities, moon-food-values; yet, perhaps there’s another level beyond the reciprocal ‘Fellowship of Friends Wheel of Life’, perhaps complete strangers ‘doors’ hinge on the house of your soul (?) Perhaps every coerced rape victim of Robert Burton, i.e., the nucleus receiver of your ‘teaching payments’ is a celestial child of yours (?)
Another way of looking at teaching payments is, not what you can get from having made the payment, i.e., what it seems only occurs ‘behind the gate-house’, rather, what do you teach by writing that check, what do you teach out into the space of both incarnated souls and un-incarnated souls…
You both are more than a disabled couple living in Dobbins, you are children of your own present-womb, will you go back to the Fellowship of Friends so to allow Robert Burton to abort your spirit-conscience-fetuses at will, subliminally, raping them before their tossed into the garbage heap behind the food storage coolers?
Look towards the Greater Fellowship site, perhaps there’s someone there who will assist you in relocating, away from Oregon House, yet, perhaps a certain something is not done with showing you both some-thing, if not, then, I can only say that, the deeper the same mistake (perhaps) the greater the wings; yet, few are learning that way under the rapist reign of Robert Burton’s fecal stained sails.
__________________________________________
l.t.y.a.
Mary, I also recommend you check out the Greater Fellowship. There are currently about 570 members and many of them are your neighbors. If you need an invitation, just ask.
P.S.
Mary,
Just in case there is a thing as ‘more time’ (and BTW we know not who or what affords us such), how will you ‘spend’ yours, supporting Robert Burton’s coercive-religious-terrorism?
California:
Your gold alchemy lunatic organic essence in a breeding ground for the King of Clubs types with good lawyers; you are the narcissus (Echo) of the east coast Narcissus himself, Washington D.C.
No fate but what we make.
Anybody notice that there has been no moderation going on for this blog for more than a week?
That means no new voices are being heard and no non-conforming posts can appear. This could lead to a duller discussion, don’t you think? (Attrit the blog out-of-existence, maybe.)
Perhaps the Sheik, who we are certainly highly indebted to for service beyond the call of duty,
has gone MIA (missing in action)? Or, is that CIA (conscience in action)?
Sheik, where are you? Has the Inner Confusion got you confused? Are you in some torture chamber of the enemy within? Speak to us, please! Or, maybe we just need to rub this lamp three times in the right (write) manner? (Aye, Alladin? (a lad in)) Are you prisoner? Has a hit man offed you for creating this blog? Maybe working for the authorities?
On the other hand maybe the Sheik is on a much needed vacation. Even the cyborg, played by Arnold S. in
Terminator 2 has the line, ‘I need a vacation.’ (Say that in your mind with an Arnold type accent.)
Or, see it spoke here at 0:12:
Terminator 2 ending scene 07:00
No fate but what we make.
Hi Mary,
yes I know what you mean, to be engrossed in the blog and the GF just seems to be a mesh of judgement and destructiveness, pretty much the opposite of what we aspire to be in the fof.
I also knew the history of the fof from my early years, the odd behaviour and nasty stories, but my first hand experience carries more weight, and it is all constructive.
Unfortunately aging people invariably become swallowed up by judgments and negativity, so essence becomes submerged, and other people cannot be seen except through the dark filters of the ‘mind’, that paints other people black if they’re on the ‘other side’!
I think being in the fof for many people (KA 88?) can be rightly dismissed as a waste of time and a bad experience, because it was all in false personality, about ‘looking good’, conforming, ‘being liked’ or being a ‘nice person’, rather than about deep inner change, becoming in essence, totally true to yourself and your own conscience.
Unfortunately the subjective morality / feminine dominance of the masses tends to replace real conscience.
No fate but what we make.
Or, see it at 3:12 of:
the end sequence in terminator 2 07:15
Other important lines excerpted from this sequence:
Sarah: It’s finally over.
Terminator: No…
There is one more chip.
[Terminator points to his third eye.]
Terminator: And it must be destroyed also.
Terminator: Here, I cannot self terminate. You must lower me into the steel.
…
Terminator: It has to end here.
…
Terminator: I know now why you cry. But it is something I can never do.
No fate but what we make.
No fate but what we make.
Terminator 2 Alternate Ending 01:48
From alternate ending:
Sarah’s final soliloquy:
August 29th 1997 came and went. Nothing much happened. Michael Jackson turned forty. There was no Judgment Day. People went to work as they always do, laughed, complained, watched TV, made love.
I wanted to run through the street yelling… to grab them all and say ‘Every day form this day on is a gift. Use it well!’ Instead I got drunk.
That was thirty years ago. But the dark future which never came still exists for me, and it
always will, like the traces of a dream (lingering in the morning light. And the war against the
machines goes on. Or, to be more precise, the war against those who build the wrong machines.)*
John fights the war differently than it was foretold. Here, on the battlefield of the Senate, the weapons are common sense… and hope.
The luxury of hope was given to me by the Terminator. Because if a machine can learn
the value of human life… maybe we can too.
* In original alternate script.
No fate but what we make.
Oh, my god, do we need the Terminator?
Bares Reposting @ 268
******
Those that want their moderated posts available near immediately post them to:
http://fofgraduates.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/graduates-of-the-fellowship-of-friends/
if for some reason it auto-moderates email:
complete_attention (at) yahoo (dot) com
and I will figure out how to release it.
Vinnie the Fish @ 269
Hi Mary,
yes I know what you mean, to be engrossed in the blog and the GF just seems to be a mesh of judgement and destructiveness, pretty much the opposite of what we aspire to be in the fof.
I also knew the history of the fof from my early years, the odd behaviour and nasty stories, but my first hand experience carries more weight, and it is all constructive.
Unfortunately aging people invariably become swallowed up by judgments and negativity, so essence becomes submerged, and other people cannot be seen except through the dark filters of the ‘mind’, that paints other people black if they’re on the ‘other side’!
I think being in the fof for many people (KA 88?) can be rightly dismissed as a waste of time and a bad experience, because it was all in false personality, about ‘looking good’, conforming, ‘being liked’ or being a ‘nice person’, rather than about deep inner change, becoming in essence, totally true to yourself and your own conscience.
Unfortunately the subjective morality / feminine dominance of the masses tends to replace real conscience.
******
This is what Vinnie the Fruit is buffering:
Inner circle facts Says:
March 1st, 2007 at 8:25 am
Are you ready for some brutal facts?
Who would like to know how its really happening in his bad room? OK folks,fasten your sit belts,the Kansas going Bye Bye…
Did you know that usual orgies are formed from 4 to 6 student?.Usually two of them are SIMULTANEOUSLY entering Burton’s anus.Third person is laying on his back while Mr.Burton is providing him an oral sex while two from both sides are subject to the masturbation by MR.Burton with his two hands.
Some time there is one more student who’s role is to hold Burton’s testicles in his mouth during the whole time.Prior to all, by Burton’s request Viagra pills are shared and swallowed between all members of the orgy which are constantly provided by Mr.G.
Some time you can hear Burton’s words during the sexual activities “How incredible! We are getting closer,aren’t we?”
Some of them are asked to suck his nipples and his toes.All sperm gets swallowed by Mr.Burton at the end of the act.But that is not all yet.
There are two students who had the most terrifying and most humiliating role to play (in my opinion).They have to enter with their hands by their elbows into the Burton’s anus.(Looking for Consciousness perhaps)..both students are Russians.One of them had left the school and the other has been “shipped” back to Russia for disobedience.
And now get this:
Beside those depraved scenes there is another one which going to shake you all:
There is another act that Burton is preforming with a specific student of his own “inner circle”.This act of Humiliation is performed in his bath room while Burton is laying down and 3 students are urinating right on him!
And on the next morning,like nothing happened Mr.Burton is leading the meeting on Love?
No fate but what we make.
Here’s why Terminator needed a vacation:
T-1000 vs. Terminator 9:19
See the ‘wordpress’ put to the Terminator in this sequence.
This is what came just before the earlier clips from the film.
No fate but what we make.
No fate but what we make.
And, finally:
Then there is this montage:
Terminator 2 – Beginning of the end 03:31
Los Angeles 2029A.D.
Lyrics:
The irritation we’re pretending not to show
Has replaced the motivation
That I had not long ago
I know that I,
I don’t ever want to be the one to make you forget it
I don’t ever want to be the one to make you resent it
I don’t ever want to be the one to make you repress it
I don’t ever wanna be, never wanna be, NEVER WANNA BE!
It’s the beginning of the end
And I don’t know where we lost control
It’s the beginning of the end
And I know that I am all alone
Interrogation has replaced the trust we had
Your misguided accusations
helping me to turn my back
I know that I,
I don’t ever want to be the one to make you divide it
I don’t ever want to be the one to make you deny it
I don’t ever want to be the one to make you deprive it
I don’t ever wanna be, never wanna be, NEVER WANNA BE!
It’s the beginning of the end
And I don’t know where we lost control
It’s the beginning of the end
And I know that I am all alone
I thought that we would find our way
I thought our life would be okay
I thought that you believed in me
but now it seems so far away
The life we knew before is gone
There is no compromising
The life you save will be your own
To find your inner senses
To find your inner senses
To find your innocences
It’s the beginning of the end
And I don’t know where we lost control
It’s the beginning of the end
And I know that I am all alone
It’s the beginning of the end
And I don’t know where we lost our soul
It’s the beginning of the end
And I know that I am all alone
———-
No fate but what we make.
Most of you never met me but the members that knew me well, did know because I knew the history about FOF that I never made any contact with the Teacher.
Another words I went to the keys meetings and new students meetings and I watch some of the videos of the Sunday meetings that were taught by others. I only watch one that the Teacher taught, that did nothing for me, because of the love this and love that! I’m sure some are aware of what I’m saying.
Did some students open up to me, on their thoughts and dealings with the Teacher sure but they were able to understand and respect my thoughts too. Nobody never forced me to meet the Teacher, nor did I ever say anything bad of him to another member.
I join FOF because of my strong beliefs and the devotion of the students not of the Teacher.
Am I aware of the many students that were harm and being harm still, yes. My hearts and prays are with them.
In my beliefs the school and the students were my Magnetic Center and still are.
“I join Fellowship of Friends” because of my strong beliefs and the devotion of the students not of the Teacher.”
_______________________________________277
That reminds me ~
There’s this scene in ‘Grey’s Anatomy’ where a train has derailed, many severed limbs are laying about, they get mixed up, someone picks up a leg that’s ‘off’ from the knee down and puts it with a guy who has his missing, they get to the hospital and lo and behold, in the operating room they go to ‘put it on’ and the toe nails have ‘nail-color-polish’ on them… hummmmm.
So, there’s another leg found downstairs in one of the ambulance trucks, they bring it up and it’s a perfect match, yet, lo and behold, it’s a left, they need a right…
Eventually an ambulance driver finds the ‘right leg’ at the wreck site, brings it to the hospital just in time and everyone lives happily ever after…
Well, almost everyone; no body ever mentioned what happened to those ‘other legs’. (?)
Mary,
Good luck with that theory of yours, it fits right in with Cult Philosophy 101.
Vinnie,
I’ve bought you a life time supply subscription of Depends, after that post above, you’ll need them sooner rather than later; I sense your bladder is about to fuse with your higher centers, good luck with that Teacher of yours, it fits right in…
:.)
Graduates, yeah I know it’s disgusting, but I’m talking about my experience, which thankfully doesn’t include such delights as your now famous epistle. Any homosexual acts are just gross in my view, but that must be subjective since being gay is so in season, eh? Thinking outside the sphincter.. if they were girls.. well it could be every man’s fantasy.. but I won’t go there, Elena will be horrified!
Who wrote that charming excerpt by the way, has it been validated?
Does anyone know the bit out of All and E where Gurdjieff said homos have no possibility of evolving and will believe anything and everything? That bit has crossed my mind many times since joining I must say.
It is important to think clearly though – around the world lots of people hate Americans because of their latest war, but it is just formatory thinking.
The usefulness of the school for an individual is one thing. The good and bad influences of the leader is quite another. One student mentioned Robert ‘saved his life’. I don’t know what he meant, but others here among the thousands he has influenced might say the opposite.
The easy lazy approach is to do what others expect of you, and that way deny your own experience, common sense and conscience. That’s what got some of us into trouble in the first place. That’s not my way.
Elena:
701:
Unoanimo, we women love to love and serve men and good for those who don’t, most of you don’t come even close to deserving it.
Elena:
260:
If you are a female, having to accept a subordinate position to men.
If you are a male, having to assume a superior position towards women (both are equally damaging even if false personality enjoys it for too long).
——————–
I think you were right the first time, the male is naturally the dominant gender, and females are undeniably attracted to dominant males. Hence the groupie behaviour of many young (and older) ladies in the FOF, swooning over certain males, perhaps trying to get close to the dominant male?
Vinnie, I know I said that I almost missed your voice, but that was when you were gone. I know you think you are a total dude-cool stud and that you get to define the issues, but sorry, dude-cool. You come off as very paltry and impoverished. Life is rich and you are missing it.
missing it..? hmm you couldn’t be more wrong there honey babe ;-))
(you probably mean ‘cool dude’? adverb precedes noun..)
282 Vinnie the Fish
“missing it..? hmm you couldn’t be more wrong there honey babe ;-))
(you probably mean ‘cool dude’? adverb precedes noun..)”
You really are a greasy mf.
Vinnie the Fish wrote:
“Unfortunately aging people invariably become swallowed up by judgments and negativity, so essence becomes submerged, and other people cannot be seen except through the dark filters of the ‘mind’, that paints other people black if they’re on the ‘other side’!
I think being in the fof for many people (KA 88?) can be rightly dismissed as a waste of time and a bad experience, because it was all in false personality, about ‘looking good’, conforming, ‘being liked’ or being a ‘nice person’, rather than about deep inner change, becoming in essence, totally true to yourself and your own conscience.
Unfortunately the subjective morality / feminine dominance of the masses tends to replace real conscience.”
Say….are you Penn Gillette? Because you’re making me laugh in the same way he makes me laugh. I’ll leave it to you to figure out if that’s a compliment.
I don’t think it matters where you are. The possibilities of experiencing the moment is there. I’m not in the Fellowship because I felt I was emotionally becoming affected in a negative way by Robert’s activity. I guess each person has to decide to go where it serves them best and try to keep their judgment out of it. It’s really not their business anyway.
Thinking of Laura,
Whaleridder,
Ton and all the others,
Thinking of myself and how to be my own best friend
Independency is like an aim for me now
all these years, channeled into dependency
still hurts.
A student yesterday said;
Robert Burton has robbed us of so many “gift” family time, friends
he robbs and uses it for hmself.
I felt the pain with her
deep in my heart and spirit
Went through my regrets…
Which one day I will write you…..
Many, many, many
Dear all friend yes time to wrap up unfinished business
To become more then now what you really are.
breath quietly and feel the sun on your skin
Let the tears go if they come….
Hug and hug yourself.
Unoamino:-
Roger, you do come over as being very sure that you are right about everything and everyone. After all, you were in the FOF for about 30 years, making teaching payments, supporting the center, buying property at Oregon House, vacating the Bay Area at predicton time, taking part in activities. You are keen to pick on named individuals. What is your story? Why did it take you so long to get wise? Why didn’t you listen to Graduates when he left, or to Ames and all when they left? My personal answer to those questions is that I didn’t have the knowledge about Robert’s life that I have now, and also that the initial promise of the Fellowship still held out for me at that time. What is yours?
280 Vinnie the Fish
You´re right on Vinnie, it was the dominant male what attracted me and continues to attract me, the man within.
Unfortunately Girard was broken, depressed, hitting himself, watching porno, repeting like a taperecorder the same old angles in every dinner and meeting and vulnerable as a child who had had to create a bunker to protect himself from a world whose generosities he was unable to recognise, a bully as a child and a spiritual bully as an adult. The guise of all understanding mother translating Robert’s hieroglyphs to people behaving like retarded idiots might very well still fool you and a lot of you but it makes me puke to realize that you’ll condemm him to hold on to his role until the end of his days so that the lot of you think you made something out of your lives following two totally psycopathic human beings.
Do not fool yourself with me Vinnie, I’ve seen Girard closer than you can ever dream and when I say I love him it is not the one you adepts love but the one you’ve never allowed to develop.
The other dominant male, Robert, well, it was good to dream with the conscious being but the reality of the weak queen surrounded by a bunch of young men managing the show is a show worth sitting and crying for unless one is a cynic like you who pays to keep the show going on even though the only role you’ve ever had in it is presenting yourself on this blog to make believe that you’re doing something worth your money. You people cripple Robert and Girard beyond anything they could have ever managed by themselves.
There is unfortunately no such a thing as a dominant male in the Fellowship. In fact, I am the most masculine force that has ever moved in the Fellowship of Friends and that is because I am a complete woman and more than a woman, a human being without the slightest shame of being one.
There’s an interesting Eric Clapton interview on Amazon, promoting his forthcoming autobiography. He says his life can be divided into three stages: first, his early years; second, his years of drug and alcohol abuse; third, the time after he gave up drugs and booze.
I realised I could apply this to my life too: the pre-FoF period (till age 30), the FoF period (till age 56), and the post-FoF period. The middle period is similar in both cases. Clapton was seeking for happiness through the excitement and stimulation of booze and dope; for me there was a craving for “higher states”, a very similar and equally pointless species of addiction.
The post addiction phase is great, but it takes quite a while for the deep layers of hypnotism and illusion created during the FoF years to fall away. Now, a year after leaving, doors are still opening – there are many amazing possibilities. I’m so happy I left when I did.
Good luck to all, Charles
Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. All systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.
Do not think that the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice non-attachment from views in order to be open to receive others’ viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout our entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.
Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrowness.
Do not avoid contact with suffering or close your eyes before suffering. Do not lose awareness of the existence of suffering in the life of the world. find ways to be with those who are suffering by all means, including personal contact and visits, images, sound. By such means, awaken yourself and others to the reality of suffering in the world.
Do not accumulate wealth while millions are hungry. Do not take as the aim of you life fame, profit, wealth, or sensual pleasure. Live simply and share time, energy, and material resources with those who are in need.
Do not maintain anger or hatred. As soon as anger and hatred arise, practice the meditation on compassion in order to deeply understand the persons who have caused anger and hatred. Learn to look at other beings with the eyes of compassion.
Do not lose yourself in dispersion and in your surroundings. Learn to practice breathing in order to regain composure of body and mind, to practice mindfulness, and to develop concentration and understanding.
Do not utter words that can create discord and cause the community to break. Make every effort to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small.
Do not say untruthful things for the sake of personal interest of to impress people. Do not utter words that cause diversion and hatred. Do not spread news that you do not know to be certain. Do not criticize or condemn things you are not sure of. Always speak truthfully and constructively. Have the courage to speak out about situations of injustice, even when doing so may threaten your own safety.
Do not use the Buddhist community for personal gain or profit, or transform your community into a political party. A religious community should, however, take a clear stand against oppression and injustice, and should strive to change the situation without engaging in partisan conflicts.
Do not live with a vocation that is harmful to humans and nature. Do not invest in companies that deprive others of their chance to life. Select a vocation which helps realize your ideal compassion.
Do not kill. Do not let others kill. Find whatever means possible to protect life and to prevent war.
Possess nothing that should belong to others. Respect the property of others but prevent others from enriching themselves from human suffering or the suffering of other beings.
Do not mistreat your body. Learn to handle it with respect. Do not look on your body as only and instrument. Preserve vital energies (sexual, breath, spirit) for the realization of the Way. Sexual expression should not happen without love and commitment. In sexual relationships be aware of future suffering that may be caused. To preserve the happiness of others, respect the rights and commitments of others. Be fully aware of the responsibility of bringing new lives into the world. Meditate on the world into which you are bringing new beings.
Do not believe that I feel that I follow each and every of these precepts perfectly. I know I fail in many ways. None of us can fully fulfill any of these. However, I must work toward a goal. These are my goal. No words can replace practice, only practice can make the words.
“The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.”
Draco ~
Roger?
Do you mean ‘Roger Rabbit’ ?
Yet, I know Roger K., if that is who you are speaking to; so, if you’re looking for me to answer for ‘Roger’, I cannot, yet, who knows, if I really try I guess I can be anybody who isn’t someone.
:.)
Hello Mary B.,
Reading your posts I am so much reminded of our tendencies to have such subjective point of views.
But there are also layers of subjectivity closer or further away from a lie. Unfortunately the FOF is a LIE.
Maybe you just dealt with the students whom in fact can put up a good act and show immense patience, at one point this was even called external consideration with very well suppressed irritation or dislike or whatever.
I think you found the fake facade or less harmful aspect of the fof in your interactions.
After all you did not meet the teacher and you are a woman.
Pretty darned safe and lucky not to go bankrupt.
Elena ~
You wrote ~
“I am the most masculine force that has ever moved in the Fellowship of Friends…”
____________________________
LOL… Personally I’d vote for the huge black Angus bull that’s out to pasture with his two twin girlfriends located to the left of the Fellowship of Friends Sodomy Cult entrance.
:.)
Elena ~
Did you not ever meet Hanna M., now there was an amazon to reckon with; Robert Burton ‘released’ her from the school because she wished to earn money and get employed as a nurse rather than staying in ’98 waiting for an impossible geological disaster to occur to California…
Geez… Well, at least Robert Burton has no history of donating to ‘official sperm banks’ other than those with bowel movements; that’s a fortunate thing I suppose…
:.)
Elena you said:
“There is unfortunately no such a thing as a dominant male in the Fellowship. In fact, I am the most masculine force that has ever moved in the Fellowship of Friends and that is because I am a complete woman and more than a woman, a human being without the slightest shame of being one.”
=======================================
What you say makes me think of this question in general:
Are there any real males left in the fof? or if they appear to be what kind of males are these? castrated emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, artistically and physically?
Well,
‘vera.mente’,
the ‘fact’
that a spirit
(supposedly embracing the inhabitance of a female body)
is calling the ‘shots’ for the males
ought to tell you something already
(?)
or is it not so obvious that the shear embarrassment of acknowledging the ‘fact’ as such is hidden by your ‘soothing, sister-ly questioning’ ?
Unoanimo you said:
or is it not so obvious that the shear embarrassment of acknowledging the ‘fact’ as such is hidden by your ’soothing, sister-ly questioning’ ?
=====================================
What do you mean here in plain english?
Vera.mente ~
8 minutes to gather a sense of our connection and still a ? mark?
More time, since, after all, Time does seem to be the White Blood cells of God.
#294 vera.mente
“Are there any real males left in the fof?”
What about Vinnie? He seems like he would be quite a ‘catch’ for some lucky lady. He’s confident, sensitive and definitely thinks for himself. A good example is post 269. The depth of insight , the truth oozing down the screen into a lucid puddle of ‘just how it is’. Charm, originality a real go my own way man. I should think him every woman’s dream.
Kid Shelleen 284,
I usually take interest in your posts. This one was reprehensible. To laugh at such a brilliant ‘long thought’ critique of human nature indicating a long and brutal trek through the deserts and fountains of the soul lead me to re-evaluate what you have to offer to this blog.
Vinny, you’re a twit.
So, I finished the job yesterday, finally having an opportunity to sleep longer than 6 hours and with a whole day to myself. Starting a new one tomorrow but it shouldn’t be as stressful and time consuming.
Anyways, will get going on the moderation now, there are fewer posts (and fewer new names) than you would have expected.
16, 30, 52, 172, 186, 188, 205, 214, 215, 217, 237, 240, 243, 254, 267 and 305 are newly moderated.
Great sentence….woooh…..and seems so true.
Time does seem to be the White Blood cells of God.
#254 James McIemore said:
“There is nothing gained by trying to analyze darkness. Darkness will never lead to any light, darkness is the absence of light. Nothing sane can come from trying to understand insanity. Insanity, by its very nature, makes no sense.”
Thanks for this James and the rest of your insightful posts. I wish I had had this understanding years ago. I struggled for too long trying to make sense of the darkness and insanity. I even rejoined because of this burning question and the feeling that I could not let go without an explanation or way of understanding all of the contradictions. So many years wasted.
Eenymeenyminymo 306
Yes, you really could be anybody who isn’t someone. The credit points that you have accrued through your tireless devotion to this blog can jump accross the ledger and show you to be rather a sad fish. Having a blog ID gives you the means and the muscle to assert yourself as you never could in real life, so much is obvious. A significant amount of what you write is at best kooky, but more likely to be an indicator of someone with some personal problems and a vain glorious bent. Kind of reminds me of a current Country classic that the rednecks have blaring around OH right now.
Brad Paisley ‘Online’
I’m a Sci-fi fantatic
Mild asthmatic
Never been to 2nd base
But there’s a whole nother me
That you need to see
Go check out MySpace
Cause online I’m down in Hollywood
I’m 6’5 and I look damn good
I drive a Mazarati
I’m a black belt in Karate
And I love a good glass of wine
It turns girls on that I’m mysterious
I tell ’em I don’t want nothing serious
Cause even on a slow day I can have a three way
Chat with two women at one time
I’m so much cooler online
So much cooler online
Here is the link if you want to see the video – worth learnign the lyrics so you can go the karaoke night at the Field and Stream.
Re: post 314
Baba Wrote:
“Kid Shelleen 284,
I usually take interest in your posts. This one was reprehensible. To laugh at such a brilliant ‘long thought’ critique of human nature indicating a long and brutal trek through the deserts and fountains of the soul lead me to re-evaluate what you have to offer to this blog.”
Finally! I’ve been trying to offend someone, anyone, for months now. My mission here is accomplished. This was tough work for a Venus-Mercury with a feature of non-existence.
Reprehensible and cause for re-evaluation! Suddenly, I feel like Bob Dylan. Thanks ;)
205 Lateral Drift
The Res Ipsa Loquitur link at the top right of this page might help you decide whether or not you are joining the right group. Reading this entire blog would be daunting, and some of the “highlights” have been moved to that page. It appears that they are all from one person. One person has collected and reposted there, but they originally came from many people who participate here.
My personal experience was that the FoF does not deliver what it claims to offer, and it has a very corrupt core. Please take advantage of this resource and be sure that you have a clear idea of what it is you are stumbling into.
314 Yesri baba
Vinny, you’re a twit.
298 Bruce
You really are a greasy mf.
Good to see the happy couple haven’t lost their brilliance. I must bow to your rapier wits, cutting straight to the core of the vital issues with incisive, demoralising clarity.
This blog used to be called ‘a school for intelligentsia’, but I suspect the Sheik noticed the inaccuracy of that epithet. Yes ‘free speech is a dirty business’ is much better.
Dumb as a brick with an extra chromosome as they say.
Yesri baba
#294 vera.mente
“Are there any real males left in the fof?”
What about Vinnie? He seems like he would be quite a ‘catch’ for some lucky lady.
—————-
Yesri babu may be right Vena – if you’d like to post some pics I could consider giving you a chance. I know what you mean, it must be hard to find a man with the wild and fearless resolve to unapologetically be himself, without imitation or pretence. ;-)
319 ~
“A significant amount of what you write is at best kooky…”
_____________________
‘Kooky’, now there’s a real man’s adjective!
The last time I heard that word was in the theme song at the beginning of the Adam’s Family shows, so long ago; they were one of my favorite daily shows, along with a dab of The Beverly Hillbillies and Batman and Robin; I suppose if you mix those together it would explain almost enough to be nearly not enough.
Thanks R.R.T., nothing like some Alpha Male cyber hugging to go along with my morning coffee.
#324 and if you want to go way, way back, Kooky was the star of a show called ‘Surfside Six’, which played on TV in black and white.
Vinnie (around #323):
You said: “I know what you mean, it must be hard to find a man with the wild and fearless resolve to unapologetically be himself, without imitation or pretence. ;-)”
I would certainly like to meet such a Man provided that his fearless nature is built on a bedrock of humility and not an illusory foundation of vanity and pride.
#324 And just because I’m in one of my weird moods today, here is the song to prove it.
327
Thanks W.U.L.S.W.U., now we have our morning theme song to play in the convoy of armored hummers as we video tape more of Robert Burton and The Fellowship of Friends moving valuables and other ‘personal & official’ assets out of the galleria and into that ‘storage area’ where Robert Burton has his 1000+ suits hanging.
:.)
Whoops! That was Ed Byrnes (Kookie) in 77 Sunset Strip. Ed Byrnes not Surfside Six. Please see above.
Vinnie the shellfish 323
it must be hard to find a man with the wild and fearless resolve to unapologetically be himself, without imitation or pretence.
are you kidding? this blog is a breeding ground for such creatures!
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=TJN3PGqDRNg
Lateral Drift (205)
Jeez, I don’t know where to begin! It’s practically inconceivable to me that someone could read this blog and STILL want to join the FOF. Oh well, here goes…
You begin by stating “I am only interested in being present and I’ve found working with others with similar aims to be most beneficial.” Assuming that we all agree on what ‘being present’ means (which is doubtful), I would speculate that most here on the blog would say that being present, or being more conscious, self-aware, etc. are worthwhile objectives. Better than being ‘asleep’, ‘identified’ or whatever. And, yes, perhaps ‘working with others with similar aims’ could be beneficial.
But why choose the FOF? Do you think they’re the only group that is interested in ‘being present’? You must not have looked around very much. There are lots of groups and teachings that value this idea. And many of them have little or nothing to do with the Fourth Way. If you are truly ‘only interested in being present’, and you think ‘working with others with similar aims to be most beneficial’, surely you can find a group that is not led by a sexual predator who charges outrageous sums to finance his depravity.
You also write, “What appeals most to me about FOF is the idea of drawing from all the esoteric traditions to create a sort of super-non-denominational religion.” Although I don’t really share your goal of wanting to be a part of a ‘super-non-denominational religion’, I think I understand what you mean by this, and why you value it. I think it was Krishnamurti who said that the world’s major religious traditions were like the fingers on a hand – the deeper we go into each of them, the closer they are to each other. I think it is worthwhile to study the esoteric and mystical aspects of the different religions. But you wouldn’t necessarily need a group to do that. However, if you wanted to do it as part of a group I’m sure there are groups who are devoted to doing just that. Of course there are many that claim to be, but really aren’t. I’m afraid the FOF is in the latter category. It is a fraud and RB is a charlatan, Svengali, or ‘hasnamuss’, if you like.
You say, “I figured that we men numbers 1-6 may not be in a position to judge a man no. 7”. This type of reasoning is a huge mistake. Perhaps your desire to actually encounter and be taught by someone on the order of a ‘man number seven’ (if such a thing exists) has caused you to suspend your judgment. You must not do this. Remember, YOU are your own best teacher. Don’t suspend your critical faculties for anyone, under any circumstances. A real teacher would try to show you this and encourage critical enquiry rather than discourage it as RB does.
You also write, ‘I revel in creating social dissonance, so they won’t get to me by applying that kind of pressure. I don’t give a damn about being thrown out and shunned – unless I’m losing something of real value that I cannot get anywhere else.” If you truly ‘revel in creating social dissonance’, you probably won’t last long in the FOF. But be very careful, because the FOF can be very seductive. Many former members probably joined with a similar mindset to yours and only came to their senses years later, feeling stunned, degraded, and ripped-off.
As to your suggestion that those of us here on the blog ‘go with you’ in your journey into the FOF and ‘counsel you along the way’, I actually kind of like this idea. If you MUST join, by all means, keep in touch with those of us ex-members here on the blog and tell us of your experiences and perhaps we can indeed ‘counsel’ you. Maybe it could be kind of like that guy (was it Jason?) who enters the labyrinth of the Minotaur and has the thread to help him find his way back?
Finally, you write ‘Are there other 4th Way groups out there that aren’t as cult-like as the FOF?’ The short answer is yes. But I would advise you to be extremely cautious. The world is full of spiritual conmen and rip-off artists. I know there are some here on the blog that repudiate anything having to do with the Fourth Way. In a way, I don’t blame them, given what they experienced in the FOF and how they must tend to associate that with the Fourth Way teachings. For myself, that wasn’t the case and I still find the Work ideas and practices useful, though not as taught in the FOF. I have attended meetings of the Gurdjieff Foundation for the past five years or so and I’ve found it to be worthwhile. However, I certainly don’t think it is the ‘only way’.
One of the things I think I learned from being in the FOF is not to be so certain about my beliefs and practices. Doubt is good (and normal). Live the question, yes, but keep asking the questions – the hard questions. I hope you’ll do that, Lateral Drift, if you decide to go forward with this and actually join the FOF. If you really do ask the hard questions I am sure that you will find yourself shunned, and you will eventually be ‘released’ as they say.
But I really hope you will not join, and will, instead, come to your senses and decide not to have anything to do with this organization that has done so much harm to so many.
Sheik, A question.
Would it be possible, easy, for you to repost the newly moderated posts when you do post them with just the number in which they would have been so that we could read them all after and in sequence without having to go back and look for each? If it’s possible and not too complicated for you it seems it would not really take anything away from them. Those connected would know what discussion they belong to.
Thank you again for all your help and work.
Uno, I did not meet Hanna but wonderful men and women who all allowed, ike me to be reduced to half our potential. After a while of accepting another man’s will, one begins to loose one’s own. This is another great harm the Fellowship is doing to students.
205 Lateral Drift,
You’re a poor phony from the FOF, I don’t believe a word you’re saying. FOF cheap efforts to try to counteract the blog.
Re: Post 331 from David B. regarding Lateral Drift
David,
I think you rose to the bait on this one. I’ve got to believe that Literal Daft’s post was absolute baloney and was carefully crafted to elicit our disbelief and stunned horror. It also was placed here in the hope that some outsider doing research might read it and say to themselves: “This must a true school, otherwise, why would someone join despite all the negative information on this blog.” I’m sure they also hoped to receive responses such as yours.
But hey, I’ve been wrong before.
“Let me please introduce myself
I’m a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached bombay.”
319 Turbot/Brad Paisley
Guess it must have occurred to you that those two girls might actually like the Keats (five foot), the Byron (limp), the Rilke, the Green Alien… who all limp back a-symmetric, shorter, breathless (asthmatic), and wounded from their star-soul wars.
That they might be truly unimpressed by those ‘real article’ six foot fivers and muscle-gristlers who loom about dumbly believing in their divine right to… to what?
(A little bit of bullying perhaps)
Lateral Drift (#205):
I “read” your interest in the Fourth Way as being sincere.
For the reasons mentioned on this blog, I don’t think the FOF is the answer. Whether or not you decide to join the FOF, I would happily serve as one of your correspondents. But this blog is not an appropriate vehicle for that purpose. You can find me on the “What is the Work” social network. If you want an invite to that network, let me know here by tomorrow (since I might miss your post if it is put on much after that).
# 313 unoanimo on 10 Oct 2007 at 7:36 am
said:
Vera.mente ~
8 minutes to gather a sense of our connection and still a ? mark?
More time, since, after all, Time does seem to be the White Blood cells of God.
==========================================
I give you up. I do not feel a connection with you, if only through this blog which has been more bitter than sweet.
If you cannot explain yourself then quit giving me your smart mouth sentences.
You are watching (even counting minutes and words for goddsake) and analyzing through your mind all the posts coming through this blog, is this what you do all day long? dueling with words… in fact doing a kind of censoring, attacking…proving yourself here you may be the smarter , the most intelligent: Uno Animo Super Man!
I do not care if on the other hand you did the res ipso loquitur, and write great poems which I do not get anyway…if on a human level you cannot step down from your vanity and just talk to people here…not things, OK?
generally speaking
excuse me for a second, I thought that the usual protocol for a successful revolution was: wait until after the oppressor is defeated to start jumping at each other’s throats.
am I missing something?
337 ~
vera.mente ~
Ok
Thanks for your Fellowship of Friends greeting, it’s almost like being back in Robert Burton’s bedroom hearing him stumbling over his sexual predator coercive spittles of C-Influence measures and imaginary ‘checks & balances’.
on 10 Oct 2007 at 6:48 pm339 unoanimo
337 ~
vera.mente ~
Ok
Thanks for your Fellowship of Friends greeting, it’s almost like being back in Robert Burton’s bedroom hearing him stumbling over his sexual predator coercive spittles of C-Influence measures and imaginary ‘checks & balances’.
——————————————————
It is not a greeting.
and BTW you are a bit like your alter ego RB:
dominant, narcisssistic, vain…minus the rapes of course.
how come you do not see this?
338 Laura:
generally speaking
excuse me for a second, I thought that the usual protocol for a successful revolution was: wait until after the oppressor is defeated to start jumping at each other’s throats.
am I missing something
==========================================
if you are asking me, my throat has been hurting enough and for a while since I started posting here.
I am speaking without the censorship I used to have in the fof.
I am sure I am not the only one here who is taking this liberty….sorry for the pissing match in general, but I am f….g tired of holding back.
Being kind is not a value here most of the time anyway…
Hi Vinnie,
You are in London right? Why not pop over to Paris and check out the Giuseppe Arcimboldo exhibition at the Musée du Luxembourg? And tell us about it….
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/10/arts/design/10arci.html
(might need a subscription)
This is a clip from the NYT article:
“Along which lines Arcimboldo clearly picked up pointers from Bosch and no doubt from Persian miniaturists. A gorgeous show of classic Iranian art happens to have just opened at the Louvre, and it includes several astonishing paintings from Arcimboldo’s time: fantastical landscapes populated by wild creatures”
So, the Persian miniaturist show too? I recently saw a wonderful show at the Getty Museum in LA – ever been there? It was of Oudry’s painted menagerie from the court of Louis XV- very bizarre and fascinating.
Elena: Sadly enough it’s not really an option to repost the newly moderated comments at the end. By moderating them they automatically jump to their place, I would have to post them manually and that would be even more of a strain on my time of which I have less every month. Sorry.
The way FOF reacts to Top people leaving;
Ph_ll_p Lu_as now judged a religious nut.
As far as I can see PL saw the light, realized
how soul destroying the decadence and sexual
excesses are, that it was time for him to find a connection
to something higher, constructive, more noble.
He broke free and flew away
340
“how come you do not see this?”
__________________________
Because you’re standing up in front of the projector?
You win vera.mente; after all who would want whatever trophy comes from winning a “pissing contest”?
vera.mente
please understand me, I don’t have a problem with you or anyone else letting it all out. Don’t hold back, by all means.
I was just commenting on the general bickering going on, which may just be a general expression of frustration.
As an example of this, here is my little rant. I don’t know about you, but I at first I used to come to this blog in the hope of hearing and sharing real stories from both sides of the imaginary fence, and after a while, caught in the soap-opera grandiosity of it all, I started to get too excited about finding out the next “big scoop”. Unfortunately, rumors come and go, we read of mysterious events, guess at legal battles, try to put faces to initials… characters appear and disappear with no explanation. very frustrating for my curious nature how little I really understand the current situation. I hate the scarcity of informations and clear explanations about many puzzling issues. Who are these people still paying thousands of dollars for participating in events with Robert? Who is Robert going to fuck if the Russian boys go away? What is happening in Europe with Asaf? Can someone please find a moment to explain to me what exactly is Going Forth By Day? And what ever happened to Arthur?
Anyway, this sort of reminds me of the interval scene in so many war movies, you know that scene where soldiers crack jokes and tease each other and roll cigarettes to ease the tension before they are called to go into the battlefield. Or maybe like the journalists of other movies, waiting bored with their notepads and cameras for the jury verdict outside the courthouse doors. Here we are, talking about schemes and cabbages and kings, getting a bit bored (I do sometimes), knowing full well that right as we talk what we now consider an abomination, Robert’s reign, continues, and more and more often it seems, the conversation ends up being about how stupid or unpleasant this or the other person’s mechanical manifestations are, and maybe that’s just because it’s the easiest thing for us to do. I am just afraid that it is a big waste of energy in relation to the larger aim of the blog. I would rather stay focused on the deeper issues. On the other hand, Nietzsche said that what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger, and I really hope this blog community will continue to thrive through the blood bath.
After all, aren’t we just painted ponies running around the enneagram merry-go-round, bobbing up and down in our merry astrological dance, looking in the mirror for the fairest of them all? But wait, haven’t we done enough of that in Robert Burton’s school already? How much of our energy are we still investing in furthering the belief that one’s mechanical expressions are really better than another’s? The endless battle of the king over the jack, the gold over the lead, the saturn over the lunar, the vain over the tramp… I don’t like to call people machines but this is what all the button-pushing reminds me of, feeling stuck once again in one of those big pain factories, grandiose and merciless, the old and stale familiar smell of rusting metal and motor oil…
Thanks Ames for the bookmarks, a little real action goes a long way.
Thanks Another Name for your concern.
Bruce, you are such a sweetiepie.
I have one question for the GF members do you have meetings that into the teaching of Being Present or are they all about bringing FOF down.
My e-mail address is marys_angels@peoplepc.com
Mary,
I’ve sent this to you privately, but perhaps there are others out there wondering:
We don’t have “meetings” at all – the GF site is simply a networking website that allows former and current FoF (and even some never Fof) members to reconnect, have on-line discussions about all kinds of things, and “talk” to each other on their individual “pages”. There is no agenda for the site as to tearing down the FoF. Mostly folks are just finding their old friends, who were lost due to the practice of “shunning” ex-students.
to Mary #346
The Greater Fellowship has no formal meetings. We have online discussion forums on many topics. Anyone can start a discussion on any topic. The gatherings we have had so far have been social. You could invite people on the site who would like to meet on the topic of Being Present. You may also be interested in the “What is the Work?” website. http://whatisthework.ning.com/
vena – 318
Glad the words are of some help. It brings some pain to me to read those last words you wrote. I know it must be difficult, but observe carefully that feeling of “so many years wasted”. Our whole life we have been indoctrinated into a linear idea of time. The school also, with all the ideas connected to people in the past and R’s silly predictions for the future, and how long a person had been in the FOF, etc. What if that perception and idea of time is just an error. I do not pretend to have attained that level of understanding and I certainly have parts of myself that wish I had done many things differently. Yet I have had glimpses of it. If there is one idea from the system called the ‘fourth way’ that is the most valuable it is the idea of ‘the present moment’. It is at the center of Zen Buddhism and Taoism. It is in every poem of Rumi. If you look closely it does begin to appear that both past and future may well be illusions, and that perhaps the moment we are in is truly all there is. It is where R was supposed to lead us and he certainly spoke of it, even eloquently at times, but he did not lead us there, and I have doubts that he has led anyone there. I left the school long before all of this ‘sequence’ stuff that I have read about came along. I suspect it is just more mystical/mental gymnastic bullshit that R has come up with to make it appear that he knows something that others do not. From some of the posts I have read, I marvel that anyone is still in the school.
Anyway, sorry to be so wordy and I certainly did not write to this blog with anything to try and teach or tell anyone. I just wanted to say ‘hi’ to some of those lovely people I met and have missed.
But remember -You have escaped! – feel good – feel strong that you made that move. You have entertained and worked with ideas that are actually quite amazing. Walt Whitman said,
“Be not discouraged, keep on, there are divine things well envelop’d, I swear to you there are divine things more beautiful than words can tell.”
Dear all,
I’ve changed the web location of the ‘anti-bookmarks’ that Laura mentioned above, and it is now a PDF file rather than an image file. I also changed the words a bit, in response to feedback. I encourage anyone who is so inclined to make their own bookmarks, in their own words, to suit their own viewpoint. I’m only going to place mine in books that already have FoF bookmarks.
There are six bookmarks to a page. You can download the PDF file from:
Click to access Anti-Bookmark.pdf
Thanks Ames.
335 Anna
319 Turbot/Brad Paisley
Guess it must have occurred to you that those two girls might actually like the Keats (five foot), the Byron (limp), the Rilke, the Green Alien… who all limp back a-symmetric, shorter, breathless (asthmatic), and wounded from their star-soul wars.
That they might be truly unimpressed by those ‘real article’ six foot fivers and muscle-gristlers who loom about dumbly believing in their divine right to… to what?
(A little bit of bullying perhaps)
The caricature of the six foot fiver is far more fantastic than the grubby little guy who powers up his computer in his basement bedroom – he is the real article. Of course we are dealing in caricatures and there are few losers quite as pathetic as the one described in the song. The obvious point that the song makes is that forums, chat rooms, blogs etc, allow enormous scope for people to present themselves in a way that they never could in normal face to face encounters. The FOF blog is not free of this. I present my views in a way I would probably not in a real human encounter as well. This needs to be discounted when evaluating folks on the bolg. The feeling I have had about Enymeenyminymo, reading his posts over the months, or at least as much as was intelligible, is that his on line persona is becoming rather extreme and I would expect it to be significantly out of balance with the way he conducts his ‘real’ life. Of course he has left the school which brings about some kind of identity crisis and testing and exposing our new, post-FOF personae on the blog is part of its value. You allude to some great poets and point out that they were disadvantaged in terms of traditional qualities of attraction for the opposite sex. I don’t’ know much about their biographies, but expect that the vast majority of people who externalize parts of their characters in order to gain approval, do so because they find it hard to get laid or liked or respected or valued for themselves. The question is why someone goes to the trouble of externalizing, or creating – as the vain like to call it. What is their motivation? The guy in the song is building an alter ego that offers him more satisfaction than living his ‘real life’ does in a very base way. I am suggesting the Enymeenymo is doing something very similar with his relentless blogging. Much of what he says is clearly for effect only and one wonders who is trying to impress other than himself. One would have to know how sound a guy he is in real life to comment further. Does he live in accordance with his blog personality and the values that he seeks to exemplify on line? I don’t know what you mean by star-soul wars. If you buy into Eny then it is probably because you have a propensity to wonder in awe at your externalizations too. It is the anal phase of spirituality. I hope you grow out of your narcissistic and rather disgusting fascination soon.
243 James Mclemore
Hey James, it’s great to hear from you too, nice to know you’re out there. You might join the Greater Fellowship if you’d like to reconnect to some of the others from the “old days.” Hope you are well.
350 Ames Gilbert
Nice job Ames, thanks for that.
(various posts) Old FOF
Your posts are interesting and thoughtful. I’m curious about who you are, and why you are posting anonymously. ??
* * *
re: “Vinnie the Fish”
When this character first emerged on the blog, it seemed obvious to me that the reason he fit so well into the FoF and has such obvious relish for the role he’s assigned himself is because he is a predator, just like his “teacher.”
JoelF
352 ~
“…his on line persona is becoming rather extreme and I would expect it to be significantly out of balance with the way he conducts his ‘real’ life.”
__________________
Actually, coincidently enough, my ‘real life’ is pretty much the same “extreme”…
R.R.T. ~ Call it my ‘Wrong Work of Centers’ and ‘Sub-conscious desire to be everything Robert Burton was not and is not’; you’ll sleep better during the day and be able to better get on with others lives ASAP or BYOB or both.
Thanks for the Alpha Male Cyber Hug Part 2, can’t get enough of those today. Now don’t go spoiling me R.R.T.
:.)
Lateral drift, If you are for real, then the first question I would suggest you ask your center director is to see a copy of the FOF’s annual fiscal report. Sounds like a reasonable question for a dues paying member, right? I would be interested to hear how this question is buffered. He won’t be able to answer it because he has never seen one because there has been absolutely no effort to ever account for any of the money collected from members. I remember once around 1977 a prospective student asked what the money went for. The director listed things that she knew money was being spent on such as building the vineyard,etc. She mentioned that some of the money was going for Meissen china. The student heard it as “mice in China” and was quite baffled. If a true accounting was ever given, I think many would be baffled. Shocked may be more like it. Another suggestion I have for you is to find a copy of the Guru Papers —Masks of Authoritarian Power by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad. It will give you a good idea of what kind of questions to ask. A few years ago a friend of mine was dating a woman who was involved in another local spiritual group and wanted him to join. My cult radar went up and I loaned him my copy and he read it before he went to the next introductory meeting. He asked a few key questions and decided the group was too cultish for him. He has thanked me profusely several times since then. Don’t think the girlfriend was happy with this turn of events. The relationship fizzled shortly thereafter.
Here is a link to help find other 4th Way groups. Be careful, read the Guru Papers before contacting any group.
http://www.fourthway.info/
Hi Joel – glad to know you read my greeting. Yeah, I am o.k.
It is so strange to have come across this blog. I have gone back and read a considerable amount of the posts from the last few months. It is just staggering. Over the years, I had looked on-line from time to time and read a few things about what was happening with the FOF, and had seen an article in SF Chronicle about R, and then saw something else online about a ‘mass exodus’ at one time, but I really had no idea what had really gone on and to what extent. I still cannot help but wonder just who this guy is and exactly how he pulled and evidently, is still pulling this off. It just hurts to think of some of the people that I lived with and worked with and came to know and care about, even if it was just from a distance; people that tried so hard and had that wonderful innocence about them, and then were taken advantage of in so many, many ways. I mean, I was certainly fooled also, and probably just had dumb luck on my side to have left when I did. It certainly was not from any superior knowledge about anything.
Thought of you many times over the years. I always appreciated your caring and your wonderful sense of humor. I wish to again thank you for being who you were and for being who you are.
Lateral Drift 205 (on joining FOF):
“Tell me how to get the most out of it, without getting used and abused.”
Assuming it’s a genuine question, here’s my advice:
Don’t join.
You will get used and abused, and brainwashed. There is nothing to get and a lot to loose. It takes years to heal. It has happened to too many sincere seekers, so – learn!
The leader is lustful, selfish and tremendously greedy, and he has nothing beautiful to teach you. He promotes fear, judgment, fake behavior and delusion in his followers. Unable himself to simply love and care for others, he brings up coldness and cruelty in his followers.
There are better places and much better teachers out there, keep looking if you must. Good luck.
FOF is a trap, and a bad one.
Look, here’s some very recent “thoughts” from insane Teacher “decoding” old renaissance paintings. This is exactly what you’ll read out loud and study at every single meeting and pay for it too. At Isis each weekly meeting costs $50-$100, so forget your “reasonable” $150 a month…
The Teacher has no doubt – he is so absolutely sure in his mad interpretations. Any normal thinking human being will tell you this is totally insane – except for his poor brainwashed followers.
Does it sound like 4th Way teaching to you? Ask yourself this.
***************************
“The Christ child is in white because he has completed a sequence.”
“The child opens the garment at Mary’s breast, signifying that the sequence is acting – it is “going in. The garment itself is red, symbolizing combustion. The hair of the Christ child is also red. The image depicts the nine of hearts and the sequence engaging the four wordless breaths by controlling the passions, represented by the thirty-six white lilies. ”
“Woman has laid aside a blue vase, signifying that the nine of hearts has completed its sequence. The gold rim on the bottom of the vase represents short Be, while the gold rim at the top represents long BE. The vase itself is lapis lazuli, representing prolonged presence. The woman above the vase shows five toes on one foot and three toes on the other. Renaissance artists often did this rather than show four toes on each foot. It signifies the nine of hearts engaging the inhalation and exhalation of the four wordless breaths.”
“A fresco by Giotto in the Basilica of St. Francis of Assisi depicts the Crucifixion (1310). Here Giotto uses the four angels on either side of the cross to convey the inhalation and exhalation of the four wordless breaths. Although there are several figures below the cross, only eight of them have halos, again referring to the inhalation and exhalation of the four wordless breaths. The two standing figures to the right of the cross are shown together as one. They represent the nine of hearts on the left and the steward on the right, and indicate that the nine of hearts and the sequence share the same body. As is often the case for the nine of hearts, the woman on the left wears a red dress. Although they should have four hands, only two hands with five fingers each are pictured, representing the Ten Commandments. Mary wears a red robe, symbolizing combustion, and kisses Christ’s small toe without touching his four other toes, representing the four wordless breaths. Together with the five fingers on her right hand, these nine digits symbolize the four wordless breaths controlling the passions. It is merely the nine of hearts, the sequence, and the four wordless breaths.
Interestingly, the middle kneeling figure on the right is a duplicate machine of one of our students. “
xena ~
You mean it was not for Mice in China!?
My God! This Robert Burton must be stopped, the mice, the mice!
:.}
KA: ‘Why not pop over to Paris and check out the Giuseppe Arcimboldo exhibition ‘
Thanks.. but no thanks. I’m not into boring art.
Joel ‘The Labeller’ Friedegg’s right, I’m a Predator for Presence and Love.
“The sequence and the four wordless breaths.”
Can someone please provide me with a short summary of what this is about? It gets mentioned frequently on this site and I (as well as, I suppose, many other ex-FOF’ers) have no idea about what is being referred to.
357- purchasing awakening
Wow! And I thought he had said outrageous things when I was in the school. Do you think he believes what he says? I mean is he lost in it, or does he just make it up in his spare time to entertain himself?
******************************
358 – unoanimo
Mice in China is good. very good.
******************************
360 – still trying
I left in 1979 and I have no clue, but I am pretty sure it is not anything you need to worry about.
Debris from a “conscious teaching”:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010404031410/www.geocities.com/Athens/8444/
Now tell yourself that the despicable fag isn’t crazy.
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2007/10/09/arts/20071010_ARCI_SLIDESHOW_index.html?partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
Giuseppe Arcimboldo, “WATER”
Hey Uno, I need help with this, don’t feel quite up to it and am very inspired by Purchasing Awakening’s last great post. But it is -for- Vinnie who really should see some great art and do some counting. I think he needs it for his “work”. After all, he’s paying for this stuff! (thanks Vinnie – I enjoyed the fruits of your donations, and thanks PAwakening for sharing!)
The red coral represents the color red and the pearls represent a large number of pearls. The stingray represents the ray of creation mounted on the bottom feeder representing breathless and wordless ‘be’s while the artist chose only to show six toes of the prawn plus the two segments of the tail and that means the nine of hearts which is biting the back of the head meaning the long sequence of the eels. The combustible lobster is opening the nine of hearts while the turtle beats the hare and completes the sequence while slightly scowling meaning he rejects the king of clubs which is the crab who is trying to kiss the lobster even tho the frog is, like the turtle, heading away towards the tentacles of the long be squid.
Anyhow, Vin, too bad you will not see either exhibit – they look rather fantastic. What DO you like anyhow?
363 KA
” But it is -for- Vinnie who really should see some great art and do some counting. I think he needs it for his “work”. After all, he’s paying for this stuff! ”
“Anyhow, Vin, too bad you will not see either exhibit – they look rather fantastic. What DO you like anyhow?”
Just out of curiosity Katherine, WTF?
KA
Yes, there’s only one detail I’d change ~
“the frog is, like the turtle, heading away towards the (testicles) of the long be squid (Robert Burton)”, meaning Jump (frog) Slow (turtle), Snap-Cut (Lobster) Quick (Crab).
Thanks for asking.
:.)
Hello FoFbloggers,
Here to follow will be a sequence of posts that, for several weeks now, has been attempted numerous times to post in every permutation and combination that is possible to think of that would be better organized than this, seemingly, only acceptable method, due to the moderation structure and disallowed formats and/or multiple link rejections. I really hope it works, this being the sixth attempt.
Here’s how FoF membership looked 01/06:
Number of Members by Month to 01/01/06:
Here’s how FoF membership looked 12/06:
Total Number of Students by Month to 12/15/06:
Do compare this to the last post image/graph.
Wonder what it looks like now?
[Please be patient as
hidebehind.com
can take a few moments to respond.]
Here’s how FoF membership new entries looked 01/06:
Members Entering by Month to 01/01/06:
Here’s how FoF membership new entries looked 12/06:
Number of Entries by Month to 12/15/06:
Do compare this to the last post image/graph.
Wonder what it looks like now?
Here’s how FoF membership releases looked 01/06:
Members Released by Month to 01/01/06:
Here’s how FoF membership releases looked 12/06:
Number of Releases by Month to 12/15/06:
Do compare this to the last post image/graph.
Wonder what it looks like now?
[It appears to have finally worked, without being rejected and/or moderated, by using this six post sequence of one link per post. Now we can take four sacred breaths.]
James Mc,
Good to read your posts here… you, Susan, Thos K “Esquire,” etc., were “directors” when / where I joined.
Food for thought or blog-mill-grist?
“In inducing hypnosis I would sit down with a volunteer who wanted to be hypnotized,” Tart recalled. “We were presumably both normal people. With our eyes we presumably saw the same room around us that others saw; with our ears we presumably heard the ordinary sounds in the room. We smelled what odors were there and felt the solidity of the real objects in the room.”
“Then I began to talk to the subject. Researchers give the style of talking the special name of ‘hypnotic induction procedure,’ but basically it was just talking. The subject was given no drugs, was not in a special environment, had nothing external done to his brain — and yet in twenty minutes I could drastically change the universe he lived in. With a few words, the subject could not lift his arm. With a few more he heard voices talking when no one was there. A few more words and he could open his eyes and see something that no one else could see, or, with the right suggestion, a real object in plain sight in the room would be invisible to him.”
How can anybody distinguish, then, between dream, hypnotic trance, and reality? Dehypnotization, the procedure of breaking out of the normal human state of awareness, according to both mystics and hypnotists, is a matter of direct mental experience. The method can be learned, and that’s the nutshell description of the esoteric wisdom of the ages.
The clues from hypnosis research, experiments into the influence of beliefs upon perceptions, and teachings from the mystical traditions, led Tart to see how normal waking consciousness is the product of a true hypnotic procedure that is practiced by parents, teachers, and peers, reinforced by every social interaction, and maintained by powerful taboos. Consensus trance induction — the process of learning the “normal waking” state of mind — is involuntary, and occurs under conditions that give it far more power than ordinary hypnotists are ever allowed. When infants are first subjected to the processes that induce consensus trance, they are all vulnerable and dependent upon their consensus hypnotists, for their parents are the ones who initiate them into the rules of their culture, according to the instructions that had been impressed upon them by their own parents, teachers, and peers.”
http://www.skilluminati.com/research/entry/charles_tart_on_consensus_trance_and_normal_human_consciousness/
Ass-sowed-Die-ate-Ted Press ~
Your graph is a bit ‘off’ ~ You might want to include those
that have left and or been raped or whose wifes and children have been aborted from the Fellowship of Friends membership due to not serving the Second Cumming of Robert ‘Jesus2’ Burton.
344 is newly moderated.
Greetings unoanimo,
The correct pronunciation is
Ass o’ SHE (who) ate it Press
And don ‘t you forget it!
Those graphs do not belong to me*. They are now in the public domain. But take one guess as to the creator.
Hint:
Twas brillig,
and the slithy toves
Did gyre and
gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy
were the borogoves,
And the mome
raths outgrabe.
* Think:
The most important ideas and principles of this system do not belong to me. This is chiefly what makes them valuable, because if they belonged to me they would be like all other theories invented by ordinary minds – they would give only a subjective view of things.
P. D. Ouspensky
“She mentioned that some of the money was going for Meissen china. The student heard it as “mice in China”
Now that, I wouldn’t have minded paying for!
“You said our love was like make believe and I thought you said maple leaves.” — Jens Lenkman
A few years ago a student asked a question at a large dinner, and Robert blushed and replied that his sexual life was a private matter. The student replied, “But I asked a question about imagination, not about your sex life!”
‘ton –
Funny how the mind works. Find myself trying to place in my memory who you might be. I, of course, have no idea.
Your posts and those of KA have been some of the most thought provoking for me personally. I thank you both for them, and hope you both continue.
The money might as well have been spent for “mice in China.” Given the gullibility of the membership I’m certain that he would have had no difficulty in convincing his followers that bankrolling the mice in China was a highly esoteric priviledge granted to him and his chosen few by the gods. Unfortunately, we were the blind mice in the story.
# 346 Laura
Laura,
I really appreciate your post. I hear you.
I thought about the same things although you have such a marvelous way to express them in clear and intelligent ways.
A few times I felt we were on the verge of a change, finally the fof is down! RB is not sucking anyone’s dick for at least 24 hours while the police and various authorities check out the premises and the paper work. The media arrives and the cult becomes a national headline! Would that be nice?
…and am I mean to picture this? I do not care…as long as something happens to stop the insanity.
Un-fortunately there are still good people (men and women)even in the fof who would not squish a fly…they shield the criminal facade.
The question if there were any real men left in the fof was for some of them in fact. The passive, or psychologically castrated in the name of some kind of spiritual quest, the ones who forgot they wear some balls.
There are also unfortunately the other ones, with way too much testosterone or money, who are the steel of the organization: the conscious criminally allies like…well… better not mention names here.
At the cost of appearing dumb (please be kind) , why can we not call 911 and tell the authorities: Look, I do not want to be legally involved, consider this anonymous (I got no money) but I think you should check that place out. Check the books as well, but do not be too harsh with the people on religious visas…please…(from public phone of course…and the run! like in the movies…)
Would the police move? or they would shrug their shoulders and tell me that I would need this and that to really make a case for them to bother?
I do not know. What do you say?
Most likely it is not going to happen like in the movies, in a grandiose way, but hold on to your faith things will get better.
Look how far we came along to denounce the fof publicly on this blog for example. One would be eternally dumb to join today, lateral drift or not.
As for our painted pony dance, yes it is true is it is quite pitiful, hopping around moved by our ego machine…these games are never successful……I guess the post of Thich (not Thick) Nhat Hanh on same day yesterday was kind of strident.
I could not see the anti bookmark on line by the way…that’s too bad.
Thank you for letting me rant back.
ARTHUR! ARE YOU STILL READING HERE? Where are you? you have a fine mind and a real spiritual fire…I totally mean it.
363 KA
“Anyhow, Vin, too bad you will not see either exhibit – they look rather fantastic. What DO you like anyhow?”
I’m flattered by your curiosity Katherine. There’s so much I like, and so little I don’t like, that it would be much briefer to say what I don’t like, but I’ll lyrically wax your question since it is a more positive vein.
Mostly I like people, I think they are much more fascinating and sometimes beautiful works of art than any human could produce. Same goes for trees, flowers, and most of nature.
But now I must go for a walk in this beautiful city I find myself in now to ponder your useful question.
OK back.
I like eyes, seeing into people and connecting with their heart, lifting us both, a whiff of love and unity. Today I passed an old woman who looked slumped and worn down by a hard day, and I gave her a cheeky smile and straightened my back and took a deep breath, and with a jut my chin told her to do the same. She did with a laugh, and when I came past later she happily showed me her strong posture and steady gaze to prove she wouldn’t be dragged under by life just yet.
I like people who enjoy, who don’t wallow in self pity (like me) or try to drag others down. Gurdjieff said something about our duty to reduce the suffering of our endless creator… there’s already enough around without adding to it with our own useless negativity. Life can be such a joy if we lose our own judgement, negativity, inner-considering, and become simple like a real human.
So I often like children more than adults They aren’t generally burdened with the trash of adults.
I like dancing too, had such a great time last night. It is a game where you can learn to inner consider less, enjoy, be silly, and lose self-importance. Like life.
Girls seem to love gazing at me when I dance, but it’s OK, I stare at children and flowers.
I love so many sensual things that are too numerous to mention, from coffee to the texture of skin. Also some films, mostly the type where love conquers all. Love is the longing for unity that moves people and all life together, and thrusts inanimate matter towards other matter… love is truly the force that moves the stars.
Vinnie my love, how moving. You brought tears to my eyes.
Well did you hear, there’s a natural order?
Those most deserving will end up with the most?
That the cream cannot help but always rise up to the top,
Well I say,… “Shit floats”.
If you thought things had changed,
Friend, you’d better think again,
Bluntly put, in the fewest of words:
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world.
Now the Working classes are obsolete,
They are surplus to society’s needs,
So let ’em all kill each other,
And get it maid overseas.
That’s the word don’t you know,
From the guys that’s running the show,
Lets be perfectly clear boys and girls,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world.
Oh feed your children on crayfish and lobster tails,
Find a school near the top of the league,
In theory I respect your right to exist,
I will kill you if you move in next to me,
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it’s anthropologically unjust,
Oh but the takings are up by a third,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world.
(Cunts are still running the world)
(Cunts are still running the world)
The free market is perfectly natural,
Do you think that I’m some kind of dummy?
It’s the ideal way to order the world;
“Fuck the morals, does it make any money?”
And if you don’t like it? Then leave.
Or use your right to protest on the street,
Yeah, use your right but don’t imagine that it’s heard,
Not whilst cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running the world,
Cunts are still running… the world.
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=e_M22STINYw
vinnie – 383
A bit baffled, and trying to see why I feel the way I do about your post. I am new here, so have no immediate history with those posting back and forth to each other.
What you say about yourself and life is very beautiful and very much to be admired. What baffles me is why it sounds and feels like a mask speaking; like a collage of things you have read and would like to be. I cannot put my finger on what is missing or gives me that feeling. It just sounds like a want-ad in the ‘personals’ section of a newspaper.
Vinnie, you are so spiritually elevated, why don’t you volunteer for Asaf’s position? I mean it, you seem to have a natural flair.
Vinnie the Fruit @ 383
So I often like children more than adults…
******
You and Michael Jackson.
344 ~
The way Fellowship of Freinds reacts to Top people leaving;
Ph_ll_p Lu_as now judged a religious nut.
As far as I can see PL saw the light, realized
how soul destroying the decadence and sexual
excesses are, that it was time for him to find a connection
to something higher, constructive, more noble.
He broke free and flew away
___________________________
Good bye Phillip, good luck in the monastery, I am sure you’ll meet up with the reflection of having called Brian Sisler “A nutty guy” too, as well as a few more hundred entities who turn peoples ‘cheeks’ to look the other way;
I do not think you’re a “nut” and being that I saw you the other day, think, well, you’ve gone deeper… the other ‘thing’ I’d ask is to try and wipe the ‘I’ve gone deeper’ look off the skull portion of the epidermis and relax a bit, monasteries can be great places to read and catch up on some serious solitude-mirrors, good luck.
P.S. I always liked your positive enthusiasm towards denying force and of course the cages of King Snakes you keep stacked eight feet tall next to your office desk, the snakes Robert Burton advised (I wonder who told him) to let loose around Isis to kill the rattlesnakes… I do sense we’ve all been at times too excited about being ‘leaders’ who are supported and stationed by Robert Burton, whatever enthusiasm arrived unto you based on identifying with ‘knowing others knew you were close to the teacher’s Apple-of-my-eye’, may it (the energy, not the thoughts), in a good way, return to you more pure, un-sponged of being possessed by Octave-leader-spores.
__________________________________________
Vinnie ~
“I love so many sensual things that are too numerous to mention, from coffee to the texture of skin.”
_________
I believe Hannibal Lecter said that first, Oh well, bon appetite!
385 James Mclemore
You hit it on the head.
A sociopath innately knows what to say- what the other person wants to hear, yet there is no “person” there to say and feel these things. That’s what you’re picking up on.
There’s no one there. No conscience, no humanity’, no soul and no heart. It’s the bizarre “charm” of the sociopath (like RB) that makes a weaker soul think that this person can fill one’s own voids. And there’s no dearth of people who are waiting to be fucked by such people, literally and figuratively. They attract and ignite one’s masochistic attributes. It’s an intense, attractive energy to the intensity and dysfunction junkies, until the pendulum swings and one sees the what excited one about someone is actually a deeply disturbed, harmful, narcissistic personality who feeds off evoking intensity from others so it can be directed towards one’s self (small “s”). It’s a one directional energy gig. You feed someone’s dysfunction just enough to be able to start to vampirically feed off of them.
For people with a fragile sense of themselves, or some past negative programming, they want to “help” or “change” or “fix” this sociopath. That’s where the energy changes direction and then becomes solely one directional- towards the predator.
“just can’t put my finger on it” should by now be a big fucking red flag for those who’ve experienced the misogyny of the “the master”.
According to certain obscure but reliable Fourth Way sources, Boris Mouravieff was, after Gurdjieff, the highest product of Fourth Way work in the twentieth century, certainly higher than P.D. Ouspensky.
After G’s death Mouravieff began to propound a new, more advanced system: the Fifth Way. In this system there were only three states of consciousnes: 1) Ape Consciousness, 2) Phil Collins Consciousness, 3) Human Consciousness.
The video attached to this link shows a rare example of the actual moment of transition from state 1 to state 2:
http://aglassandahalffullproductions.com/
390 Charles T
Unfuckingbelievable.
Thanks so much.
Reminds me of a book called “Ishmael” and another called “My Ishmael”. Worth reading if you want your heart to pound.
Charles T @ 390
According to certain obscure but reliable Fourth Way sources, Boris Mouravieff was, after Gurdjieff, the highest product of Fourth Way work in the twentieth century, certainly higher than P.D. Ouspensky.
********
You’d better be kidding. Remember when Advaita was 100% reliable?
James 380
It’s actually good news that you can’t identify me here. I found the blog and started posting last month… a month into this, based on hindsight and some of the “feedback” from bloggers, I was concerned that I’d made myself more “transparent” than I might have liked… not that I’m “anti-transparency,” especially here where the unvarnished truth serves as a solvent and dissolving agent acting upon the continued problem in the “lesser fof…” I’ll look for your profile and pictures over at the GF site and drop you a line.
Otherwise and in general — the word / topic of “masks” has come up a couple of times recently — an intriguing metaphor, or is it a symbol?
Although it’s a lengthy read, this is worth at least looking at:
http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/sanity_1.pdf
PS
the ISHMAEL books by Daniel Quinn are definitely worth checking out.
392
“According to certain obscure but reliable Fourth Way sources, Boris Mouravieff was, after Gurdjieff, the highest product of Fourth Way work in the twentieth century”
at least according to Mouravieff
Bruce and unoanimo –
You guys are ruthless, and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it. It brings to mind my favorite quote of late that I found from Nietzche :
“Curious to a vice, investigators to the point of cruelty, with uninhibited fingers for the unfathomable.”
Thanks for your posts.
361 Still Trying
‘The Sequence’ is a relatively recent – and very practical – Burton contribution to the 4th Way school of thought. It involves using the 30 work ‘I’s to practice being present or self-remembering in daily life. Students are encouraged to start out doing 20 or so sequences per day in groups of 3. Each step lasts about one breath (3 seconds) for a total time of about 30 seconds.
During Robert’s travels in Egypt, following practical observation, there was a refinement to the sequence of six work I’s which bring presence.
The current format for the sequence is:
1. Be— 2. Hold— 3. Theme— 4. Back— 5. Theme again— 6. long BE – followed by the four wordless breaths (steps 7-10).
Theme is the appropriate work ‘I’ in the moment.
It makes the sequence more effective as there is one less work ‘I’ to remember and draw our attention away. For example during a concert the sequence would be: Be—Hold—Hear—Back —Hear—long BE.
The work ‘I’ ‘Back’ –called the middle coming – is an invitation for the steward to come forward and a command to the lower self to go ‘back’ to its rightful place.
Another way to look at it, is that the fourth work ‘I’ in the sequence, actually reaffirms the short ‘Be’ and prepares for the Long BE. ‘Back’, therefore, represents another form of ‘Be’.
———————————————————————
The Thirty Work ‘I’s
1. Be (Be present)
2. Hold (Hold the sequence with Presence)
3. Pray (Choose the theme of the sequence; i.e. Look, Hear)
4. Back (Watch the lower self)
5. Turn (Return to the theme of the sequence; i.e. Look, Hear)
6. Long BE (Prolong Presence)
7. Act (Engage Presence)
8. Peace [Pax] (Avoid the entire spectrum of negative emotions)
9. Leave (Avoid identification)
10. Kneel (Do not resent friction)
11. Drop (Do not judge or keep accounts)
12. Use (Use voluntary suffering)
13. Wit (Avoid wit)
14. Now (Think neither of the past nor of the future)
15. Look (Look with presence)
16. Move (Move with presence)
17. Taste (Taste with presence)
18. Hear (Listen with presence)
19. Feel (Feel with presence)
20. Smell (Smell with presence)
21. Talk (Speak with presence)
22. Think (Think with presence)
23. Read (Read with presence)
24. Write (Write with presence)
25. Child (Remain in essence; avoid false personality revolving around chief feature)
26. Serve (Do not inner consider, externally consider)
27. Scale (Use scale and relativity)
28. Aim (Keep aim and complete octaves; be aware of third forces)
29. Time (Remember the brevity of life)
30. Gods (Remember the gods)
Greetings all – I am scheduled to begin ‘Work’ with the FOF at a center in a major city in the next few weeks. I am only interested in being present and I’ve found working with others with similar aims to be most beneficial. There is a lot of esoteric-sounding nonsense surrounding the 4th Way school of thought and I can really only go on what I’ve been able to verify for myself; namely, trying to awaken seems like a better quality of being than sleepwalking through life. What appeals most to me about FOF is the idea of drawing from all the esoteric traditions to create a sort of super-non-denominational religion. In theory, the idea of taking the core truths and cutting away all the extraneous hogwash sounds like exactly what I’ve always felt was right. At first, the negative press coverage of FOF actually piqued my curiosity. I figured that we men numbers 1-6 may not be in a position to judge a man no. 7, self-proclaimed though he may be, and I was willing to suspend disbelief until I had a reason to do otherwise. They ask for 150 a month for the first year – quite reasonable if they deliver as promised. I’ve been assured that it is most important that I verify everything for myself – to determine if this is the right school environment for me – and that no question is off-limits. I revel in creating social dissonance, so they won’t get to me by applying that kind of pressure. I don’t give a damn about being thrown out and shunned – unless I’m losing something of real value that I cannot get anywhere else. I’m one to tempt fate, and I am quite curious, but I if I’m going to go through with this I want you all to ‘go with me’ in spirit and counsel me along the way. I am open to your comments, questions, suggesting and I’d like you to coach me through this experience. Tell me how to get the most out of it, without getting used and abused. Thanks.
P.S. Are there other 4th Way groups out there that aren’t as cult-like as the FOF? I’d really like to be involved in the work with others and study the esoteric traditions of all the major religions without getting conned.
# 346 To Laura: (and only)
…Robert’s reign, continues, and more and more often it seems, the conversation ends up being about how stupid or unpleasant this or the other person’s mechanical manifestations are, and maybe that’s just because it’s the easiest thing for us to do. I am just afraid that it is a big waste of energy in relation to the larger aim of the blog. I would rather stay focused on the deeper issues….
______________________________________________
… may be risking my neck here…but I am puzzled you say this and then you jump all over Vinnie.
Is this a double standard? or should Vinnie be considered the scum of the earth like RB so we can punch him without regrets?
Like you told me: please do not hold back anything! I am not trying to shut you up, or make you feel guilty, nothing like that! I just want to understand.
398
“Is this a double standard? or should Vinnie be considered the scum of the earth like RB so we can punch him without regrets?”
Only if he is the scum of the earth. And we all have different criteria for that designation.
“I am not trying to shut you up, or make you feel guilty, nothing like that! I just want to understand.”
Right, sure.
“To Laura: (and only)”
You mean you only want an answer from her.
Sorry! (not really).
397 Lateral Drift
Didn’t you already post this? Posting it a second time doesn’t make you any less full of shit.
399 Bruce
Oh Bruce,
I feel my neck is hurting…
I truly have nothing against your ranting, you never told me not to.
‘ton:
Have not signed up or tried to contact GF site yet. Joel mentioned it, but I am unsure how to proceed.
Have not read the Klockstone/ sanity thing yet but will soon. I did read another link you left about hypnosis. Great stuff – it reminded me a bit of a gentleman I ran across on the web named P.P. Quimby who was an influence on the guy who wrote Science of Mind. Quimby was in the mid 1800’s and did some experiments with hypnosis and I suspect he may have come to much the same conclusions, although he speaks about things in a little different language. He spent the most of his life as a healer. I have read Ishmael, although it was a long time ago. It is a great book.
Feels like I am beginning to learn a lot from this blog and you folks, both from what you say and the links. I sometimes feel a little over my head in that I am pretty sure that the educational and intellectual level of many of the posters far exceeds mine. I do have the feeling I did not come here by accident. I also do not wish to selfishly use this blog for reasons other than for what it was intended, so if it appears I am doing so, I trust that you and Bruce and KA and the others will let me know. Thanks again to all of you and to the Sheik for making this thing possible.
401 vera.mente
“you never told me not to.”
I have no idea what you’re trying to say here.
Lateral Drift ~
“I’m one to tempt fate…”
_____________________
Tempt away, let me know when you go from ‘lateral’ to vertical and then you can start ‘working’ things out a bit on this blog-forum; in the mean time, keep beating on those drums, laterally, that is… I am sure your ‘lateral’ tendencies and tenacity for ‘The Work’ will cum in hand-y with Robert Burton, that is, IF you’re good looking and side more towards salami rather than Vienna sausages.
403 Bruce
you are right, I did not explain.
I was trying to say I never felt any interference from you, or suggestions of any kind about my posts…or maybe not until now…
Have at it. I don’t seek to interfere with anyone’s posts. But I will comment if I think it’s appropriate.
We were talking about William Patterson a few days ago. Funnily enough, he left Lord Pentland for an Advaita teacher and then returned to the “Gurjieff work” as a teacher ten years later:-
“I continued in the Work and also going to Sunyata’s meetings. It came to a point where he changed his meeting to the meeting night of the Work, and I had to make a decision. I realized the decision was already made for me. Although I was still strongly connected with Lord Pentland and the Work, my heart’s energy had gone to this man. I flew to New York and told Lord Pentland what I was going to do. He said, “People always come into the work by the front door and leave by the back. You should leave by the same door you entered.” I thought that was very important. He had put all these years of work into me and was sorry to see me go.”
http://digitalseance.wordpress.com/collection/a-conversation-with-william-patrick-patterson/
392 Graduates: “You’d better be kidding. Remember when Advaita was 100% reliable?”
I’m totally serious. There’s a direct line of enlightened teaching from Mouravieff to Phil Collins, as illustrated by the Conscious Video linked to post 390.
This teaching doesn’t supercede Advaita, however. Mouravieff’s highest level of consciousness is Human Consciousness, meaning we’re already there.
“Why couldn’t the world that concerns us be a fiction?”
Nietzsche
400 Bruce
Yes, but no one responded, so I posted it again. Name-calling is perfectly acceptable, but perhaps you might add weight to your insult by explaining yourself for those of us who are full of shit. Please use small words.
409 Lateral Drift
Maybe they didn’t respond because they don’t buy your horse shit.
Nothing more than two syllable words, ok? And thanks for your permission. I’ve been waiting for it.
James 402, you wrote:
“I… do not wish to selfishly use this blog for reasons other than for what it was intended…”
The question of “reasons and intentions” here on the blog is one I’ve asked from the start… I think resolution of that question “remains to be seen” and is an ongoing process… my personal philosophy is — while you’re here, post away! (But that’s just me).
Will google your reference to PP Quimby, thanks for that.
Good to know you’re here, now.
C
409
And actually there were several responses to your post, although most thought you were a phony from the start. And you still appear to be.
409
And if you are seeking an answer to your post, and are not aware of the responses, then are you not really interested in an answer. Might your purpose simply to be the posting of your words? At this point, with the FOF, every checkbook counts. Your “quasi-overview” expressed in your original (and duplicate) post is often a part of the FOF “hook”. One can smell it pretty far off.
409
And if I’m wrong, than you are perfect fodder for the FOF. Lottsa luck.
410 Bruce
You may find this difficult to comprehend, but I am apparently so completely full of shit that I remain clueless as to your reasons for engaging me in this puerile strain of dialectic. Surely you are better than this…?
If someone else, equally enlightened but perhaps a tad less acerbic could theorize as to the cause of Bruce’s hostility, I would greatly appreciate it. I am asking for your guidance. Those of us who are full of shit need the most help.
415
And once again, you can answer your own question by reading my above 3 or 4 posts. Unless, again, you’re not really looking for an answer.
Bruce 410
I missed those replies. Thanks for cluing me in. Much gratitude to those who responded:
358 Purchasing awakening
356 xena
336 Still trying
Still trying, I’m grateful for any help I can get. I can see this probably isn’t the forum for those not yet bitter and jaded. I’ll try to find you out there somewhere.
417
Try not to mistake “bitter and jaded” with not having patience or time to waste with bull shit, and people full of it.
417
And your immediate affinity for Still Trying is a dead give away. You are full of shit.
Lateral Drift (409)
I responded to your post. Go back and read 331.
David,
I think Lateral Drift is one of the “old assholes”.
Lateral Drift wrote ~
“If someone else, equally enlightened but perhaps a tad less acerbic could theorize as to the cause of Bruce’s hostility, I would greatly appreciate it. I am asking for your guidance. Those of us who are full of shit need the most help.”
__________________________________________
I would advise you to order an ‘Acme Super Spy Disguise Kit’, practice with various disguises, find one that looks closest to an Armani model from upper New York; now, dress up, wear that ‘disguise’ (laterally of course) and join the Fellowship of Friends (again), saying, during your first prospective meeting break for wine, that you’re the boy friend of the guy your other self was the first time and that you’d like to get the ‘Teacher’s Blessing’ before you get married to ‘you know who’…
I believe the out-cum of this little experiment would give new and deeper meaning to the theory of The Mystical Marriage and it might even flip the polarity of your wanning magnetic center from ‘lateral’ to ‘upright’, once vertical, you’re then definitely ready for Man#5 promotion and some free dinners with the teacher, that is, so long as you’re not too squeamish about being Robert Burton’s Cummy-Tummy-Dessert before and after the main course.
Let me know how it all pans out; I am sure your Grandmother would be proud, most men don’t know how to cook themselves and still write checks to support psychopathic rapist goddesses in disease ridden herpes’s sepsis bodies.
422 unoanimo
You’re so bad.
Thanks also 331 David B., 333 Elena, 321 WasKathleenW. Your comments are much appreciated. In response to all of your questions: Yes, I have looked for other area groups, and was briefly involved in one that looked more like a social club dedicated to indulging in feelings – rather like AA, I imagine. I quickly lost patience. There may have been more to the group, but I wanted to work, and it felt like a waste of my time. Yes, I have read much of the blog and many of you sound as if you had a really bad experience with the FOF. I do take this seriously. It must sound crazy to you that I’d think of joining after reading about your time in this crazy cult, but I assure you I’m only interested in using them to further my own interests – being present, shocking the ego, going beyond the simple life of the lower centers, etc. I agree that I probably won’t last very long. In fact, I’m hoping they will kick me out before I get bored or fed up and quit. I intend to have some fun first, though. I haven’t suspended doubt; it’s really the only thing I can rely on. However, I try to liberally apply my skepticism to all things equally, including my doubt. I’m willing to question everything and accept nothing; I’ve been living that way for years. At the same time, just because this is a cult and people have been hurt does not mean that I cannot benefit from the experience. Frankly, they freak me out, but I’m still looking forward to seeing what I can get from them while they try (unsuccessfully) to suck me in. I will continue looking for other groups, better teachers and like minded individuals to work with. Thanks again for your help. I will post a full report of my experience with the group in due time.
424 Lateral Drift
Could you be Vinnie’s long lost twin, separated at birth?
422 unoanimo
Point taken. I’ll watch my ass.
425 Bruce
Do you rank among RB’s conquests? I can’t imagine anything else that would leave one feeling so used as to engender such venomous antipathy. I’ve simply asked for help, and I’m grateful to those kind enough to dispense free advice based on what was undoubtedly a difficult experience. Peace, man. Peace.
427 Lateral Drift
You don’t fucking get it. My antipathy is directed to you, not RB. And yes, many years ago I was one of “the boys”, but don’t mistake where I’m addressing my comments.
Here’s the scam:
Teacher: I know something you don’t.
Student: Yeah, what’s that?
Teacher: It can’t be put into words, but believe me, you have no idea what is going on.
Student: Really?
Teacher: You don’t realize it but your life depends on knowing what I know.
Student: How do I find out?
Teacher: First you need to adopt the right attitude; you need to realize that you are nothing, a lost soul, while at the same time I am everything, a realized soul.
Student: You know the truth while I don’t know, so I need to learn from you?
Teacher: You don’t even know you don’t know. Yes, in order to ‘know’ you must spend time around me.
Student: What do I need to do to spend time with you?
Teacher: Wait here until I feel like I have time for you.
Student: How long will I have to wait?
Teacher: It depends on how much conviction you have to pay; I don’t spend my time on people for nothing.
Student: But I am willing to pay everything!
Teacher: Prove that by coming up with some serious money and then we can talk. Remember, those that don’t make efforts get nothing.
Student: Money, Okay. Anything else?
Teacher: There are certain needs of mine that only the finest students can be entrusted with.
Student: Master, I am willing to pay anything in order to know the truth and enlighten my soul.
Teacher: Get in line behind these other eager students and do whatever you can to try and standout as more deserving than the next undeserving suitor. I’ll let you know when I need you, what I need you for and how much I’ll need.
Student: Master I will do anything, walkover everyone, to attract your life-giving attention and validate me as the special person that I know I really am.
*******
The real question is what kind of shallow piece of rotten humanity would derive the slightest satisfaction out of such an obvious fraud? My guess is that no one with a higher understanding of humanity would use other people selfishly. If a man is no longer ‘attached’ to the usual desires that rule over the lives of typical men then why wouldn’t he spend his time working toward offering sincere people what useful information he had available to him in order to aid them in understanding the higher realization that might be possible concerning the nature of existence? Would physical servitude and psychological ordeal really be necessary? Are there any non-egomaniacs standing in a position above the routines, the insecurities and the anxieties of ordinary men ready and willing to aid those able to use their time on this world to develop their higher nature?
427 Lateral Drift
And if you don’t deem my posts to you as “free advice” then you don’t want answers. Unless by “free advice” you mean you want to hear what you want to hear, and in that case, you’ve already stated yourself what you want to hear. So let’s cut the bull shit.
428 Bruce
I got it, no mistake, but why the misdirected hostility? It was not I who raped you. I’m interested in learning from the missteps of others. Why turn on me when I ask for your help?
429 Graduates
Well said. I completely agree.
431
Because you’re laying out a line of bull shit that I don’t believe.
432
Fair enough. You are entitled. I bare you no ill will. Be well.
431
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt…tell us who you are (you’re too new to be punished for blogging here, after all they are not going to turn down a new paycheck) and our sources “in” will let us know that you’re actually a new student and not another shill. Be a man (or woman) and tell us who you are. Otherwise I don’t see any reason to believe your not one of the “old assholes>
424 Lateral Drift
“just because this is a cult and people have been hurt does not mean that I cannot benefit from the experience. Frankly, they freak me out, but I’m still looking forward to seeing what I can get from them while they try (unsuccessfully) to suck me in.”
______________________________________________
What kind of bizarre reasoning is this?!!
435 Vena
It really is. That’s why I thought of Vinnie.
““just because this is a cult and people have been hurt does not mean that I cannot benefit from the experience. Frankly, they freak me out, but I’m still looking forward to seeing what I can get from them while they try (unsuccessfully) to suck me in.”
Vinnie and Lateral Drift: What are the chances of two people with such similar and distorted psyches to be on this tiny blog?
It’s a fucking miracle.
Yes, the real question is, “What kind of person could have such convoluted and predatory thinking regarding a spiritual path?”
438 Vena
That’s a rhetorical question, right?
Bruce and Vena:
Well you both beat me. I was just about to copy and paste the exact same passage from Lateral. I was getting a feeling not too different from the other one I had that you (Bruce) called “a big fucking red flag”. They infer they have this intellectual sharpness and speak of their special skepticism and doubt that guides them, and yet………….
337 vera.mente and the self-proclaimed owner of this blog’s all too basic reply by 339.
I like your guts. On the other hand I could not be bothered to match words nor swords with this kind of back-stabber.
He(she) gave me the same crap as well one day and saved me a lot of energy. He is a master at hurting people, a bully as it were. The sooner, from my lunarish point of view, that we withdraw our energy from his negative diatribe, the better for all.
I am sorry that I have contributed to the existence of souls like his, I forgive myself for that and I hope that one day we will all look back on all this and laugh all the while sipping on our favorite beverage.
Thank you vera.mente and Cheers!
Renald ~
Thanks for that, it’s just the ‘cherry’ I need today… I will be sure to include you in the long line of those holding little ‘Coolers’ waiting to harvest my earthly containers organs when it expires.
442
I only scan your posts, Eny, but when they are short it is hard to avoid reading them.
I suggest you read your posts imagining they were posted by someone other than you and try to imagine the character behind them.
In my opinion, Robert’s main weakness is as much our responsibility as his – his unassailable position as a demigod. He has been elevated by us and become more and more reckless along the way. Whatever perverse tendencies are contained in his character, they found expression due to the lack of responsibility or control in his relationships with individuals and with his following of devoted students. Without the playground of the school there is a good chance he would have remained rather uninteresting.
The point is that you have stated your position as being against Robert’s ‘evil’ and yet you seem to respect no authority above your own will to freedom – to be or to do what? It is seductive, no question, and as you associate more with your blog persona and find what was previously your natural temperament to become irksome and inconvenient, you will experience some of the elation and apparent freedom that keeps sociopaths company on their path. Fine to go down that road, many have and most of them would have remained rather uninteresting but for it, however, let us hope that there are more possibilities than these two for people who have had a fly on the wall view of a Robert.
I am not particularly interested in you, but see in you the unfolding of a little tyrant who should know better. Many people who have been traumatized gravitate towards reliving the experience from different roles. It is part of the sublime drive to understand that distinguishes a human who can never really be happy, and the reason many of us were caught by the school.
Anyway, I am going on a bit. The lesson is there for us all, and thank you for exemplifying it. I hope we also get to witness you on the other side of the mire, Eny.
441 Renald
Thank you so much Renald! : )
Here is a song for all of us here…
THE 15TH
Reviewed, it seemed
As if someone were watching over it
Before it was
As if response were based on fact
Providing, deciding, it was soon there
Squared to it, faced to it, it was not there
Renewed, it fought
As if it had a cause to live for
Denied, it learned
As if it had sooner been destroyed
Providing, deciding, it was soon there
Squared to it, faced to it, it was not there
Reviewed, it fought
As if someone were watching over it
Before it had sooner been denied
Renewed, it seemed
As if it had a cause to live for
Destroyed, it was later based on fact
By Wire
Vinnie 269
“Unfortunately aging people invariably become swallowed up by judgements and negativity, so essence becomes submerged, etc.”
Isn’t everyone aging? Are you referring to older people than yourself? How old are you? Isn’t RB older than many of us and aging as well? Does this mean that he is swallowed up by judgements and negativity because he is aging?
Have you read some of the older ex students posts? Like old fish in the sea, old fof, Joseph G, Charles T and others?
Unfortunately Vinnie you are just an incarnation of all the rest of the other former fof shills trying to present yourself as seeking ‘deep inner change, becoming in essence, totally true to yourself and your own conscience’ when I seriously doubt you have any idea what any of that means.
Charles T 304
“The post addiction phase is great, but it takes quite a while for the deep layers of hynotism and illusion created during the fof years to fall away.”
You can say that again. I have been out for almost 30 years and still catch myself standing with my hands folded in front of me with my head tilted in that ‘aren’t I being humble’ look that all of us developed. It has only been in the last year or so that fof babble has begun to loosen and let go.
David B 331
You mentioned attending meetings with the Gurdjieff Foundation. I wonder if you could elaborate on what you think the Foundation considers to be the Gurgjieff Work. If this is not the right forum for that maybe you could e mail me at theplace@rockisland.com thanks.
Joel
Nice to see you back. We knew each other in the 70’s. I worked with Sheilita and Patricia in the kitchen for a while and then Patricia took my job as chef at The Woodbutcher Restaurant in Marysville. I mention this because you were instrumental in my leaving the fof when I did.
R.R.T. ~
You’re spoiling me again (or is that really possible? to spoil someone more than once?)
This may answer Graduates question as well, concerning Robert Burton and might even ‘put to bed’ some of your own projection-isms; see, Robert Burton does not have an astral body, if he did, he’d know better… as for your ~
“but see in you the unfolding of a little tyrant who should know better.”
fortunately you’re off your rocker and the porch, yet, well, sometimes 911 is tested that way.
Take care Alpha Male Hug #3,
I have nothing to loose, nor to gain… the earth is yours, keep it.
vera.mente – 444
Loved those lyrics. I had not heard of the group before, and looked them up on line. Thank you so much for sharing that.
Thanks God Laughing,344
I am vey happy to see P .L-c-s these days
Sad that Robert can’t say to him
Congratulations…
It will help other students to see the light.
Time will help each of us.
It was my highlight of last week to see P.L
Thanks for sharing.
P.S. R.R.T.
You wrote ~
“I suggest you read your posts imagining they were posted by someone other than you and try to imagine the character behind them.”
_____________
Yes, I have done this, several times and was taken aback a bit at hearing ‘that someone’ who pecks through these fingertips towards ‘who knows who’… yet, deeper, something in me said WTF? (where’s the in-between?) … so I looked and found it, the intention, not the obvious…
That’s the trouble, sorta, with life on this planet, wars are obvious, yet, where have you ever heard this concerning war ~
‘Wars are an attempt to keep one’s personal life private.’
____________________
Hurt is one thing, hurting feelings, another… even plants have to transform suffering in order to ‘grow’… yet, if you hurt their feelings, they’ll die on their own, even in the midst of the greatest intentions, fertilizer and ‘light’…
Pointing out the obvious is, well, ‘obvious’, yet, luckily the intent is somewhere else, the love, the ‘tough-love’ your ego is unwilling to accept, that there is no such a thing as a ‘private life’, it is the resistance one puts up in order to assume that one’s ‘physical story’ is more person-able than the astral, it is this that moves you tonight, the physical always has a beginning and an end, yet, does love, does conscience, does ‘aim’ or ‘innocent inquiry’ or ‘essential curiosity’…
See, the trouble begins when you assume consciousness to be something the machine can do ‘perfect’, that consciousness works through the machine in order to ‘show’ a ‘good’ instead of a ‘bad’… Robert Burton is a putrid-master as this technique, yet, never does he have any explanation awaiting at the end of ‘his stick’, other than it’s ‘stick-ness’… such results are given out to the lower centers by the lower centers and their ‘roofs’ have no chinmeys, they keep burning till they implode…
Consciousness uses neither the physical to demonstrate, nor the spirit; love is for he, she or it who can take it in the moment and that is all, this is my story, this is what I have always prayed for since a child, to find god’s embrace again and again, not it’s embrace of my dick, rather, my aching heart (none could tell me how this ache appeared)… yet, there it was and being that young, prayer and their results was for me what (I guess) sex was then for adults…
You follow your ‘imaginings’, yet, I implore you to go deeper into intent, look for it, not me.
______________________
love to you all
I can neither understand what you write nor piece together what you are trying to convey. If it is beyond my faculties to understand your writing, this begs the question “why not express yourself in a way that can be understood”, or is it that such esoteric truths as you wallow in can only be externalized like particularly bad translation of Rilke’s worst nonsense?
Ah, yes, Rilke, R.R.T. (Robert Rena Taylor) ~ May the star you wish upon dive into you like a virgin might it’s first failed attempt at committing suicide in a lagoon, whose love for it stayed far beyond it’s birth.
R.R.T. ~
Something I learned out in the streets, the ‘past 12AM streets’, that if one is not willing ‘immediately’ to admit and show, through eye contact and intonation of voice, one’s true level of being in connection to he or she who is suddenly enlivened with the duty to end one’s life and have a little fun doing it, then, it is surely to happen, not in spirit, but, rather, in ego… The quicker you learn to not buffer your vanity wish to get bigger by making another’s supposed ‘vanity’ smaller, the better for you, then again, maybe ‘you’ are not concerned with the large ‘I’… so be it, I invoke Whale Rider’s Toaster List… Amen.
Lateral Drift (424)
There are some on here who think you’re not for real or some kind of imposter. I don’t know, I’m still witholding judgment for now. If you are ‘real’ and you decide, inspite of everything you’ve read on here, to join the FOF, I challenge you to act on the suggestion of a previous poster (can’t remember who it was) and, at the first meeting, ask to see a financial report on the FOF, detailing its revenues and expenditures. That’s only reasonable, right? That should a real interesting way to start things off, especially since you’re so into creating ‘social dissoncance’ or whatever.
Also, while you’re at it, you might as well go ahead and ask them about all the ‘allegations’ against Robert, you know, just to get everything clear up front. Maybe something like, ‘Is it true that Robert has sex with scores of his heterosexual male students and tells them that they’ll receive some kind of spiritual benefit from it, and then shuns them if they refuse to comply?’. Or maybe, ‘Has Robert ordered some of his female students to have abortions?’
Just go back and read all the first-hand accounts here on the blog of the harm RB has inflicted on so many former members, and take notes and bring that to the meeting with you and have them address those questions to your satisfaction. Then report back to us here on the blog what their response was. I can’t wait to hear that.
Also, I have to say, I concur with the others – the statement you made – ‘just because this is a cult and people have been hurt does not mean that I cannot benefit from the experience. Frankly, they freak me out, but I’m still looking forward to seeing what I can get from them while they try (unsuccessfully) to suck me in’ – that is a very bizarre attitude. So bizarre, in fact, it sort of makes me doubt whether you’re for real. Maybe I’m just ‘taking the bait’, as Kid Shelleen said. I guess we’ll see when/if you go to your first meeting and ask those questions and then report back to us.
Have fun!
Unoanimo, just in case you get the feeling that you don’t have any support here against the basically unimaginative detractors that are questioning your character due to your tendency to immediately criticize what you consider a personal weakness in now one, now another posting participant on this list, I offer my moral support for your slightly eccentrically executed good intentions. Please, criticize me at will using what incomprehensible prose you suppose is appropriate to any presumed infraction on my part. What most people do not realize in these kinds of situations, where inevitable conflict arises among the various inhabitants of the Tower of Babel, is that everyone has to take a side. I’m on your side against those that take insult with your barbed irritation at the smoothly flowing phoniness that so easily oozes out of the friendly faces of those wandering blind over the 16 million square miles of contiguous paved surface now covering the civilized portions of our rather emotionally barbaric habitat. You are doing good work to erode the psychic terror of the local Black Magician and in any such indispensable process a few villagers crowding around to witness the real action are going to get a bloodied nose during the course of business.
Unoanimo,
I think you are trying to be sincere in your posts but just so you know most people on the blog skip your posts, like elena’s, because they are long and self indulgent.
No doubtley you will respond with defense or your play with words to my post but just so you know at this moment your posts mean very little and I suspect little to others. You lack substance and they are just sarcasm.
There are real stories and emotions on this blog and your just not one of them. I suggest take a month off and look at your aims. Who am I though to suggest, you will probably suggest to me to fuck off. Fine.
I don’t think your a candidate for thorazine but you are wrapped up so much in your self that some type of mild medication might be helpful. Maybe lithium!
I hope you and no one of your supports responds and just goes a way but – that is a dream I am sure; but this blog is very valuable for the sincere people to express their thoughts and true emotions, whether positive or negative about the fellowship. You have just turned it into a circus!
424 Lateral Drift
As others have pointed out you seem kind of ‘fishy’ but I am going to take you at your word. I like your grouping us together as men 1-6, very perceptive of you.
“…going beyond the simple life of the lower centers, etc.”
Why do you think there is something beyond the simple life of the lower centers? Because you have read something about ‘higher centers’ or the ‘Self’ or some such like that?
So you, the ‘lower centers’, want to become the ‘higher centers’ and a higher # man/woman? What happens to ‘lower centers’ you? Are there two of you then?
I only ask these simple questions because it is the root of the gigantic mistake that allows all the idiocy and pain and confusion which follows in the fof and all other false pursuits.
There is nothing beyond the simple life of the lower centers and deep down youknow that.
447 James Mclemore
vera.mente – 444
Loved those lyrics. I had not heard of the group before, and looked them up on line. Thank you so much for sharing that.
————————————————————————–
You are very welcome! The lyrics are really thought provoking…they are a kind of a riddle for something
Fat Boy ~
Such words already prematurely cumming from you are beyond my own words want of extrusion; I’ll remain celibate tonight, for your sake and the possible ‘children’ of course.
Thanks for the drugs, but, no thanks.
vera.mente 398
“Is this a double standard? or should Vinnie be considered the scum of the earth like RB so we can punch him without regrets?”
Good question, I am aware of the apparent contradiction. Here is my rationale for it, and people who don’t agree please let me know. I think there is a difference between getting irritated because we don’t like each other’s mode of expression, as a result of our different body types and features (or however else you want to define our human peculiarities), and reacting to what we perceive as a faulty and dangerous mindset.
The quality of Vinnie’s posts that ticks me off has been well described by James at 385 Bruce at 389, in other words what really gets me is Vinnie’s somehow perceivable “unrealness” (sorry about speaking of you as if you weren’t here, Vin). As with other Fellowship posters in the past, I get very frustrated with the “rubber wall” feel and general habit of skirting important issues.
Also, in relation to the larger aim we were speaking of before, they are after all playing for the opposite team. I don’t hate Vinnie the person nor have a definite opinion about him, but I am definitely on a mission to try and kick Vinnie the player’s ass when he gives me his polished student of “love and presence” bullshit act.
“Girls seem to love gazing at me when I dance, but it’s OK, I stare at children and flowers.”
On the other hand, sometimes a phrase like the one preceding just irks me to no end and my reaction may just be the mechanical by-product of my very own subjective bullshit meter, regardless of whoever said it, in or out. BTW, Vinnie, where do you go for dancing? Let me know, I’d really like to come too, it sounds like a great place full of music, and girls, and children, and flowers…. Don’t worry, I won’t be gazing at you, I tend to be a self-referential dancer.
Fat Boy 455
“There are real stories and emotions on this blog and your just not one of them.”
Remember dear, we wouldn’t mind to hear more of your own stories and emotions. Everyone can contribute, but of course it’s much easier to sit back and enjoy the play and jump in only when it’s time to criticize the actors. I don’t respect your parasitic attitude, and I want to offer the photograph that, at least to me, you give the impression of being a rather lazy and fearful creature. Maybe these features are some of the factors that keep you in Robert Burton’s weak imitation of a spiritual school.
Fat Boy – 455
How would you know that most people on this blog skip someone’s posts. If you have the power to know that you are a very exceptional being.
Now I do not say this just to be hurtful, and you may already know it, but I often skip yours.
Steve Anderson:
“You can say that again. I have been out for almost 30 years and still catch myself standing with my hands folded in front of me with my head tilted in that ‘aren’t I being humble’ look that all of us developed.”
Not *all of us*, Steve.
This is the core of the problem, imitation. A slight smile is part of it too eh? As if you are wise and knowing. Putting on an act, instead of avoiding that crap like the plague. I see that sort of pretence and get a slightly sickened, ’embarrassed for the other person’ feeling, that inspires me further to be myself. Imitation of postures, voice, words, expressions, opinions, is the ‘work’ in false personality, wanting to appear one way or another to impress other people. Nobody forced you to do that.
It cannot be the way to become a conscious self-actualized being, and there is no-one worth selling your soul for.
384 Laura: “Cunts are still running… the world.” (repeated many times).
Nice poem Laura, I can tell you’re a sweet sensitive girl. I like the quote ‘there’s always room at the top’.
And who runs Your world is the question.
Bruce I didn’t realise you were a member of The Well Dressed Young Men. How long was it? How did you subjugate your conscience to volunteer for that? I had such an offer once and had not the slightest whim to take it up. (Conscience is feeling the emotions about the subject at hand that you will feel when you die, and acting in the moment from that. It isn’t doing what others think you should do.)
Recently I suppose you are feeling those true emotions and hating yourself for doing what your conscience told you not to do. And projecting that hatred on others whom you think represent somehow the object of your hatred. It’s clear.
Some time you’ll need to accept that the choice was yours, whether for personal glory or some other stupid selfish motive, and you pay the price. But don’t worry, it’s not fatal, many people make far worse ‘mistakes’ that can’t be dismissed as ‘learnings’. I guess Joe The Butcher G is in the same boat. And maybe Yesri I deduce.
Conscience is an individual thing however – some made the same choice as you and continue to visibly benefit in their personal evolution.
463 Vinnie the Fish
You speak like you know what the fuck you’re talking about outside of yourself. You don’t, but your vanity and narcissism won’t allow you to see that.
As for your questions about me, I’ve no need to explain or justify to anyone, especially you, you little arrogant prick. But just to throw you a bone, self-hatred is not part of my persona.
463
“384 Laura: “Cunts are still running… the world.” (repeated many times).
Nice poem Laura, I can tell you’re a sweet sensitive girl.”
It’s someone else’s song you douche. And the UK “cunt” is far different than the US “cunt” as an exclamation.
It is true that I was a little critical of Unanimo in my last post and do not wish to hurt that part of his essence that is real. I wish I had a better way of delivering my feeling to him without being so critical. Probably new moon energy.
As I go through this blog from time to time this is what I feel about him though, that the space he takes up is alot and driven by ego and sarcasm.
I would share more of my experiences but this forum is difficult because most of the players here are so anti fellowship and anti Robert. That is very extreme. If there was a voice that incorporated more relativity then I would be open to share things. I do see the weaknesses of Robert and the FOF, but I also see the strengths. The blog portrays RB as something evil; and quite the contrary in my opinion, he really is a compassionate person who has made a lot of mistakes along way. He has hurt a few but has helped alot too.
There are a lot of contractictions in the FOF and with Robert but each student can work to go beyond those contractictions and see the real love and effort that exists; or on the hand the student or ex student can you use the contratictions to see everything as horrible.
This blog is an organic process in motion and it is negative in regards to Robert, but don’t be surprised in a year or two that this blog may turn into something positive for the support of the fellowship. I don’t predict this but once the current members get over there fears and certain buffers they may decide to post and the hand full of you that keep this blog at its low level of subjective expression may be drowned out by more reasonble and relative posts.
Unoanimo responded to my last post with sarcasm, he was not able to go deeper within himself and post something sincere…..this is the state of this blog…..defense, attack, sarcasm, rudeness. No doubtly my post will be drowned out with this; rather than someone picking up a point I am saying and developing it in a positive way…
So be it… surprise me…
Vinnie, Fatboy, you guys still don’t have a fucking clue. You deserve yourselves.
Bruce,
The Fellowship and the fourthway works for some people; and for others it does not work; I personally do not judge this if students leave and wish the best to them that they can find something that helps them to continue to strive to something higher in themselves and outside themselves. I think it is obvious to us what is going on in the Fellowship and with Robert; so I think we have a clue. But just because we don’t see things the way you wish us to see it, it does not mean there is no struggle in us.
You are right in that we have no fucking clue to what makes you tick. But in someway I understand your anomosity torward Robert, and don’t critize you for this and you have been quite sincere in describing your experiences; but that part of you that wishes to attack in such a primitive way is the false part of you in my opinion. But we all quilty of it and I am not above it either.
To Vinnie the Fish:
You have no idea what Bruce and others like him have been through. They have trememdous courage. They have put their own hurt aside to speak up and tell their stories. They deserve respect not insults and innuendo. How you can make the inane remarks you come up with is beyond me. I hope that time and maturity might give you just a little insight into the reality of the situation. You may someday feel great shame for your lack of compassion and sensitivity.
Re: Post 383
Vinnie the Fish wrote:
“I like eyes, seeing into people and connecting with their heart, lifting us both, a whiff of love and unity. Today I passed an old woman who looked slumped and worn down by a hard day, and I gave her a cheeky smile and straightened my back and took a deep breath, and with a jut my chin told her to do the same. She did with a laugh, and when I came past later she happily showed me her strong posture and steady gaze to prove she wouldn’t be dragged under by life just yet.”
I wish she would have given you the finger! This reads like something from Reader’s Digest or some Norman Vincent Peale pamphlet. The old and down-trodden everywhere thank you and eagerly await your next walk abroad, when you might once again bless them with your cheeky smile and glad-to-be-alive gumption. Next time though, don’t forget to forgive them their sins. Perhaps you could get a job writing for Garrison Keiller. He seems to go in for this type of self-serving, heart warming pablum from time to time.
To paraphrase Ian Drury: Hit me with your Whitman Stick.
…there, now I feel better. Sorry, now what were you saying about hats…
To “Fat Boy”:
You said:
“…in someway I understand your anomosity torward Robert, and don’t critize you for this and you have been quite sincere in describing your experiences; but that part of you that wishes to attack in such a primitive way is the false part of you in my opinion.”
Subsitute “rapist” for Robert and just imagine making this ridiculous comment to a woman who had been raped about her attacker.
“that part of you that wishes to attack in such a primitive way is the false part of you in my opinion.”
This is an outrageous statement. Expressing anger at abuse and deception is not “attacking in a primitive way from the false part of oneself.” It is a healthy response which many men who had this experience have not yet gotten in touch with. It is your thinking that is primitive. Your reasoning is so perverted and twisted it hardly deserves a response. I am sorry for you.
Fat Boy – 466
surprise me
*************
Well I don’t think I can surprise you. If you are not surprised and shocked by what you have read here, by what your dear teacher has said and done, and evidently is still doing and still saying, and you think you see compassion in him and you truly think that there is something useful in the FOF, other than the friendships you might form, I would not know what to say except ‘good luck’. I think you are going to need it.
468 fat boy
Try to step outside of “black or white”. I have, in the past, stated that there are things I’m grateful for from both FOF and RB. You are just seeing what you want to see in an either/or fashion. What I am grateful for in no way diminishes the crime, hurt and degradation that RB and the FOF promote.
Your statements show that you don’t have a clue, or relativity. Real relativity, not the FOF defensive version of relativity that excuses what goes on.
470
“I like eyes, seeing into people and connecting with their heart, lifting us both, a whiff of love and unity. Today I passed an old woman who looked slumped and worn down by a hard day, and I gave her a cheeky smile and straightened my back and took a deep breath, and with a jut my chin told her to do the same. She did with a laugh, and when I came past later she happily showed me her strong posture and steady gaze to prove she wouldn’t be dragged under by life just yet.”
Yes, this makes me gag. This guy is the capo of creeps.
Vinnie, Fat Boy and the other apologists for the Fellowship have learned to use the work ideas to belittle, distort and dismiss truth. This habit is one of the greatest and most tragic mistakes in the FOF and will probably be a major cause of its eventual downfall. So many of us held these ideas as precious and high. We gave up jobs, family and friends to try and live them but they have been sullied and used to foster the lies that kept something inherently corrupt going under the guise of spirituality.
Bruce @ 474
Yes, this makes me gag. This guy is the capo of creeps.
******
Steady on, you must know that they are just here to bait ex-members into negative judgments and the like. It proves to the other cult nutters that we lose our “work” once we leave the wonderful world of Bob. That wonderful doublethink world of higher consciousness where obsessive sexual predation is not an expression of negativity, but rather a sign of divine presence.
Vinnie,
Several years ago I was at a bar/club in Nevada City that is known for great music called Coopers. A lady student and old acquaintance S___h brought a few members there. I remember speaking to one of the people there for about 30 seconds. I also remeber coming away from this conversation thinking “this has got to be one of the biggest assholes the FOF ever produced”. S___h heard the short conversation and came up to me to apologize for his arrogance and inanity. She said “he didn’t know you were in the FOF”. I said “what does that have to do with him being an utter asshole”? Of couse there’s no answer for that.
It was you wasn’t it? Drunk and excessively obnoxious.
476 Graduates
True, thanks.
424 Lateral Drift
“It must sound crazy to you that I’d think of joining after reading about your time in this crazy cult, but I assure you I’m only interested in using them to further my own interests – being present, shocking the ego, going beyond the simple life of the lower centers, etc.”
——————————–
Have you considered that furthering your own interests by giving money to this cult will enable the sociopath in charge to continue hurting people? Are you okay with that?
I, too, suspect that you are already in, so I guess you are okay with it.
Fat Boy – 466
p.s. – Bruce’s post made me realize that I had left something out of my previous post.
I did derive benefit from studying the ideas from the fourth way and I learned much about myself from some of the exercises and from the people that I met. I have learned things about myself from marriages that did not turn out well also. The fact that one can learn something and derive some benefit from a situation is not a very accurate way to assess the situation itself. Also ‘the fourth way’ has some very powerful ideas. Those ideas and the manner in which the FOF uses them are two very different things.
Lateral Drift, you still haven’t identified yourself.
Lateral Drift
Still don’t believe you’re real. Funny how they (the assholes) either disappear or ignore requests having to do with credibility.
Vinnie ” Today I passed an old woman who looked slumped and worn down by a hard day, and I gave her a cheeky smile and straightened my back and took a deep breath, and with a jut my chin told her to do the same. She did with a laugh, and when I came past later she happily showed me her strong posture and steady gaze to prove she wouldn’t be dragged under by life just yet.”
You’re quite lucky that this lady didn’t whack you on the head with her umbrella. You didn’t know why she looked slumped and worn. Maybe her husband died yesterday. Maybe her sister was just diagnosed with cancer. Maybe her son was just killed in the service. It is not useful to deny a person their right to grieve. You were lucky this time. Next time I would suggest you lend a sympathetic ear and use some discernment before trying to cheer someone up.
483 xena
For a sociopath, all is self-referential. All that matters is what’s coming in, not what’s going out, unless it’s to increase what’s coming in.
Like here… It’s the attention directed to Vinnie, not the actual pertinent information, that’s the food that feeds the ever starving pathology. All is viewed in relation to one’s dysfunctional self.
468 Fat Boy: “The Fellowship and the fourthway works for some people”.
Let’s leave the fourth way out of this – the FoF doesn’t even claim to be a fourth way school these days. But otherwise you have hit here on a real question: does the Fellowship work?
My conclusion after sincerely working with the FoF ideas for 26 years, and total immersion in the FoF world, was that it does not. By this I mean that it does not lead to spiritual awakening. Yes, there are brief moments of presence and the occasional higher state, but nothing permanent. I have also found that true spiritual awakening does exist outside the FoF. In fact it’s very simple. By contrast, Robert Burton’s teaching is a hopelessly convoluted charade. The obvious conclusion is that anyone sincerely interested in spiritual awakening should leave the FoF and look elsewhere, as many are doing.
In conversations with current FoF students, there is noone I have spoken to recently who’s top priority is their spiritual evolution. It’s always something else; friends, money, visa, fear of the outside, etc. The one person who I would consider an exception to this, P-i-ip L-c-s, recently left.
I would be very interested to hear what you mean when you say that the FoF works for you.
regards, Charles
CHARLES,
thank you! It is true what you says.
Among people who are still in the Fof is very rare to find someone who is really interested in the ‘awakening’.
Grazie
Vena 471, I agree with this statement you said below.
“Expressing anger at abuse and deception is not “attacking in a primitive way from the false part of oneself.” It is a healthy response which many men who had this experience have not yet gotten in touch with. ”
I think there is confusion to what I mean about the primitive part of Bruce, but if it is not understandable then it I prefer just to let it go.
My believe this blog exists because of Robert’s sexual behavior. I have read most of the stories; I am moved by some; and some I feel are inflated.
For me, I am still trying to understand the morality of sex. It is not so black and white. Maybe some of you are more advanced in this area. I try to keep a little open in this area because our culture is so opinionated in this area and it is a rather complicated topic.
When posts are so opinionated and rightoues in either direction then it is red flag for me that this person is only identified with his or her own subjectivity. Relativity is the key and Vena I respect your opinion but feel no relativity.
Charles,
I know you well and feel you are one of the voices with relativity on this blog, but I don’t agree with you. But I respect you and am happy for that you have found something that works. Lately I understand the FOF may not work for everyone and that is OK if someone goes searching elsewhere. Before I was disillusioned in that this is the only School that would work, but as things have changed I respect others who need different food.
But it does still work for me, and people here are only interesting in getting connected to themselves and something higher, which in my opinion is spirtual awakening. I don’t think has come down to A influence as suggest.
And, another point, as least how I see it, is that the fourth way is very alive here. The form has changed but the principles remain the same on some level. It is all up to each individual how they want to see it as far as I am concerned.
Good luck to you.
I’ve noted with interest that the shills who come and go here seem to believe that the readers are naive and stupid and will fall for any sort of baloney. There is a recognizable, adolescent, transparent quality to the communication. Why is that?
I suppose an indoctrinated member of a closed system that allows no critical or original thought and promotes the belief that everyone “out there” is asleep and in imagination, might not be able to produce more than transparent tapes. Perhaps they believe they are directing the tapes at sleeping robots who are easily influenced.
To the foofers who are doing this — you are making yourselves and your organization look really silly.
487 Fat Boy
“and some I feel are inflated.”
Please grace us with how you reached this absurd conclusion. Is this just another conclusion you’re pulling out of your ass based on gut instinct? Because there is absolutely no real basis for you to reach this conclusion other than what you would like to be reality.
489
“I suppose an indoctrinated member of a closed system that allows no critical or original thought and promotes the belief that everyone “out there” is asleep and in imagination, might not be able to produce more than transparent tapes. Perhaps they believe they are directing the tapes at sleeping robots who are easily influenced.”
It has to be that way to continue to support this atrocity. Without this view one’s decision making regarding the FOF would be absurd and impossible to justify. It’s like the 30% or so that still think Bush is the greatest Pres. ever. One is invested in stupidity, and forced to call it by a different name to sleep well at night (and during the day).
#487: I really think you are missing the mark when you speak of trying to understand the morality of sex. It’s not about the sex; it’s about the abuse. Morality is very subjective, depending on where you live and when you were born. And if you use the excuse that it’s for a person’s evolution, I don’t buy it. Sex is confusing enough for many people. I know for myself growing up in the ’70’s was a very confusing time because it was totally acceptable and encouraged to have lots of sex with lots of people. And being part of that experience has not served me well in my personal relationships.
A healthy sexual relationship is kind of unique these days, if you talk with people. When you are dealing with some of the highest (creative) energy the planet has to offer its residents, to add confusion, doubt, anger, fear and all the negative things people have spoken about here at the very least it’s not a very nice thing to do to someone else. And I would venture to guess that there are not many men coming out of this experience unscathed.
I think that’s enough reason to not trust an individual who does this to people he claims to love. And as I have said before, I left because I could not trust my teacher.
And honestly I don’t understand why you don’t think that this is abuse. It boggles my mind.
Sorry Bruce, I don’t have the time to review the 1000’s of posts on this blog and critique the ones I thought were inflated. I would not think it is an absurd conclusion, but I respect you if you do not agree. But between the lines it seems you are telling us you know are objective and you know what “reality” is. Ok, fine, but to me you are just living as much as you think I am living in a dream.
Thank you 492 Wake up little Susy, your post is along the lines of civil and constructive dialogue and good questions.
I never said that Robert has not abused others. But again the word abuse can be taken with relativitiy. And quite honestly, I have to go to work now, and will think about this question more and post later.
question for anyone and everyone –
If some of these posters are merely shills. I am unclear as to the purpose in their posts. Is it only to try and keep those ‘in’ that are on some sort of fence?
494 fat boy
“But again the word abuse can be taken with relativity”
Especially when one is directly or indirectly supporting it.
You really are an asshole, relatively speaking.
495 James Mclemore
“If some of these posters are merely shills. I am unclear as to the purpose in their posts. Is it only to try and keep those ‘in’ that are on some sort of fence?”
That’s one reason. Also, some think they are more evolved, more intelligent, more open than the sleeping people here. Some like to hear themselves, stroke themselves, inflate themselves, and justify their stupidity.
For some, this is more real than what they have to live with in the FOF. More vital, more open. Some are just jerks needing too express their jerkness and offensiveness
455 Fat Boy just so you know most people on the blog skip your posts, like elena’s, because they are long and self indulgent
??? WTF? I personally am looking forward to reading Unanimo’s posts. (and Elena’s btw)
493 fat boy
Once again, you have avoided answering the question, as you so often do. I didn’t ask which posts. I asked what led you to believe that some are inflated (like your ego).
488 Fat Boy.
Thanks for replying.
You wrote: “people here are only interesting in getting connected to themselves and something higher”
This is what exactly what puzzles me.
“Connected to themselves”.
Do you mean getting to know yourself: body type, centre of gravity, etc? Sure, that’s useful, but it’s all figured out in the first year or two, right? Also, understanding and connecting with one’s essence is worthwhile, but once you’ve done that, what next?
“Connecting to something higher”.
Higher centers? Higher forces?
If you mean higher centers, in other words higher states, isn’t it true that these experiences are fleeting and not particularly meaningful in the long run? But if that’s really what you’re after, they’re readily available outside the FoF in other spiritual groups in which you don’t have to be subjected to Mr Burton’s corrupting influence.
If you mean higher forces, my experience has been that the sense of a connection to something way beyond the small individual ego or personality which we customarily take to be ourselves is much more readily accessible outside the FoF. There’s a lot about the FoF that actually encourages and strengthens false personailty under the guise of doing the opposite.
Anyway, if you’re willing to further explain how all this works for you in the context of the FoF, I’d appreciate it.
#466 Fat Boy said:
“This blog is an organic process in motion and it is negative in regards to Robert, but don’t be surprised in a year or two that this blog may turn into something positive for the support of the fellowship. I don’t predict this but once the current members get over there fears and certain buffers they may decide to post and the hand full of you that keep this blog at its low level of subjective expression may be drowned out by more reasonble and relative posts.”
This can never happen because there is no way an intelligent person could ever justify the behavior of Robert Burton or his enablers. When current followers are asked to address these serious questions there is silence or twisted logic, denial, etc.
497 – Bruce
Thanks – most of what you said is sort of what I thought. It just seems weird that if they are happy there and did not need to try and justify what they are doing, why they post except just to hear themselves. If they really think the FOF is a great place, you think they would not feel a need to defend it.
Read somewhere:
Truth never needs defense – only lies need defense.
bares repeating:
Truth never needs defense – only lies need defense.
502 James Mclemore
Some of the current-fof postings could be attempts to demonstrate to current-fof readers that the blog is just negativity and to be ignored, avoided.
James, were you married to P prior to 1979?
504 – WasKathleenW
I was married to a P. We were separated when I joined the school in 1974. She joined soon after. We remained good friends, although we lived in different centers and I did not see much of her. I saw her once shortly after coming back from Detroit and not long before I left FOF. I have not seen nor heard of or from her in many years. She was still in the school I believe when I left. I hope she is alive and well somewhere. The last I heard she was in the Carmel area.
505 James Mclemore
P and I were in the Hawaii center for awhile during 1979-1980. As far as I know, she returned to Carmel after that, but we didn’t stay in touch.
And now, for something completely different.
As I was wondering the web woodlands in my blog-related searches, I ran into a most unexpected Gurdjieff-Pamela Travers connection. As old students of the fourth way, I think some of you might get a kick out of this article. I liked it because I enjoy children’s stories and mythical thinking, plus the excerpts from the Mary Poppins books make for some trippy reading. Way better than the Disney version I was familiar with.
http://www.cesnur.org/testi/marypoppins.htm
Which, by way of associative thought, brings up the subject: what about the sad Fellowship legacy in terms of creative output? For all the emphasis on the arts, very little of lasting value has been produced in the bosom of the ark.
When I was in, I remember participating in a Goldman-sponsored oil painting workshop led by an old windbag, a (technically wonderful) painter of the post-neoclassical Chicago Academy or something of the sort. I’ll tell you, neo-classical academic style can be quite stifling in this day and age. Has anyone here not suffered in some way from the suffocation of the most creative aspects of their lives through participation in the Felloswhip?
And oh, we should not forget the italic calligraphy, the classic ballet, the string quartets, the flower arrangements, the french cuisine, the waltz (but not the tango, that was way toooo daring)… I could go on and on and on and still not find a single instance of encouragement of real individuality and original content in any of these artistic endeavors.
Just remember all the bland pretty clean houses with their little black and white etched portraits of the 44, and the Fellowship Forum with its antique look and stuffy articles….
We were (made) old before our time.
And I will stroll the merry way and jump the hedges first
And I will drink the clear clean water for to quench my thirst
And I shall watch the ferry-boats and they’ll get high
On a blue ocean, against tomorrow’s sky
And I will walk and talk in gardens all wet with rain
And I will never grow so old again
Oh sweet thing, sweet thing
My, my, my, my, my sweet thing
And I will stroll the merry ways and jump the hedges first
And I will drink the clear clean water for to quench my thirst
And I shall watch the ferry-boats and they’ll get high
On a blue ocean against tomorrow’s sky
And I will walk and talk in gardens all wet with rain
And never ever ever ever ever get so old again
Ooh…
Sweet thing
My my my…
And I shall drive my chariot down your streets and cry
“hey, it’s me! I’m dynamite and I don’t know why”
And you shall take me warm in your arms again
And I will not remember that I ever felt the pain
And I will walk and talk in gardens all wet with rain
And never ever ever ever ever get so old again
Ooh
Sweet thing
Yeah yeah yeah…
Sweet thing
My my my…
And I will raise my hand up into the night time sky
And count the stars there shining in your eyes
Just to dig it all an’ not to wonder, that’s just fine
And I’ll be satisfied not to read in between the lines
And I will walk and talk in gardens all wet with rain
And never ever ever ever ever get so old again
Sugar-baby with your champagne eyes
And your saint-like smile….
Van Morrison, Sweet Thing
506 – WasKathleenW
I trust that she left the school long ago. She is a lovely soul and always had an innocent abundance of simple, earthy, and very straightforward wisdom. I truly hope all is well with her.
Bruce I want to answer your question, but then calling me an asshole or inflated ego…..come on…when will stop this. We are all trying to be sincere here and work through the contradictions. Tell me who wants to answer somone when they in turn call you ugly names? When will you grow and undertand this? And I cannot tell you how are they think they are inflated until I review them, sorry. Maybe later I can find words to express it but it is just not there now for me, especially I am at work.
But read Charles post above and learn from it, it is not inflamatory. And hope to anwer him soon. And my feeling from you is that you can be sincere like the first post you ask me a question, but then when you did not get the answer you become a bully. How can I trust you? Just ask the question with out the hyperbally and rudeness a second time.
And also I apologize to Unoanimo in my initial post to him, although truthful from my perspective but I was a little hard and as I realize this in the end accomplishes nothing.
There are three kinds of lies:
lies, damned lies and statistics.
Mark Twain
Concerning whether the Fellowship of Friends works:
Fact is that there is less than a 20% retention rate in FoF. (That was the old statistic. It is probably more like 10% now.) That means that 8 to 9 out of 10 people who join FoF leave.
Althoughbeit, not all are fully dissatisfied, but something caused them to leave.
That means that 1, possibly 2, out of 10 people that join will still be members. Many of those stay, not because it works,
but because of other reasons – like they have no other viable choices – caught in a catch 44 situation. So, roughly speaking,
there are 1500 current members and there are 15,000 former members. Then there are all those people, like the Sheik, that rejected FoF before joining. You might even say that for one person to join the Fellowship of Friends and stay for life is a one in a million, possibly near one in a billion, prospect.
Yes, it does work for someone (especially Robert Earl Burton).
Do you want to gamble on a one in a million chance, especially when you put your life on the line? And, given the information on this blog, anecdotal that it may be, definitely shows real examples,
even nightmares, of how many ways peoples’ lives
HAVE NOT BENEFITED IN THE LONG RUN.
There are three kinds of lies:
lies, damned lies and statistics.
Mark Twain
#470 Kid Shelleen
Wonder how many got the ‘what were you saying about hats’ thing. That was a funny movie.
The waiter at the end is kind of how I imagine Vinnie.
Thanks James
reposting
Truth never needs defense – only lies need defense
509 – Fat Boy
Although your post is aimed at Bruce, I would like to try and tell you why a lot of what you say is difficult to respond to in some warm and fuzzy manner. When you make statements like “the word abuse can be taken with relativity”, what could you possibly mean? If you mean that some abuse is more extreme than other sorts of abuse, well of course that is true; but it sounds like you mean you have some other definitions of abuse. What are they and how do you plan to justify it? What could possibly make you think some people’s stories are inflated? Ask yourself, why in the world would someone inflate a story such as the ones that have been told here? Do you really think that people would spend their time making up stories just to bring down the fof because they somehow failed in their personal efforts and did not get what they wanted from the school? That is just ludicrous. Your thinking just does not sound like thinking. It sounds like dodging. You continually seem to be evasive and then point out that the reason you are being evasive is that someone has not responded to you correctly, and that if they would just be kinder to you, you would then explain yourself. You sound like you are trying to defend something. Not sure if you read the quote from earlier, that Bruce restated.
“Truth never needs defense, only lies need defense”.
Thanks for would you like to know…great.
Fat boy, i think you said you had to go to work>>>>?
What happened ….o just used to lying like Robert?
I am sorry it is called sincere lying?
Enjoy your journey…as I see you seem to be trying to get somewhere…..
Bruce –
Hope you do not mind me commenting on a post that was aimed at you. It is quite obvious that you do not need anyone to speak for you and I certainly was not attempting to do that. Maybe it is just that mild-mannered old James was beginning to lose his patience.
Fat Boy, Vinnie, and the rest of you apologists who are supporting or defending or apologizing for the Fellowship: you seem to be assuming that what you really need to defend against are the gross sexual transgressions and improprieties. Well, certainly they are horrendous. But the real problem with the Fellowship is that it is not a functioning school – the rot extends much further than the bedroom. Time for me to tell another story to make of what you will.
Sometime during the early 80s my wife and I were at Renaissance for the weekend, as was our custom, and on Sunday morning we had breakfast at what was then the Lincoln Lodge with dear friends of ours, a couple who were on salary at Renaissance, and who had been recently married. They were in the process of trying to establish a household for themselves, and although they were trying not to complain about their situation, it became very clear to us that they were having great difficulty with their project because they worked hugely long hours, and thus had little time to do extra things outside work, and because they barely had enough money to do anything. It was on the edge of heartrending for me.
Because my wife and I had a commitment back in the Bay Area later on Sunday, we decided to head for home soon after breakfast. We talked about our friends’ situation all the way to our car, as it had affected both of us so much.
On the way off the property we stopped at the Goethe Academy, which I wanted to see in more detail. I think I had a little bit of an ‘inappropriate’ sense that since I was part of the FoF and had paid a huge amount of money towards it’s construction over the years, that I should be able to at least see it. So we walked in to the main central room, which was breathtaking in its somewhat overdone way, and then I headed into the library, being a lover of books.
Well my goodness……… Robert and about six of his boys were in the library watching a football game on a huge TV. I was so taken aback that I was literally stopped in my tracks. The boys all looked like they felt guilty – as though they had been ‘caught’. Robert immediately leaped up and came over close to me as though to block my view, told me that I should not be there without permission, told me that if I wanted to borrow a book I could see someone in the office, and made it clear through his tone and manner that the conversation was now over and that I should leave. My wife was standing in the doorway and also saw all this occur.
So we left and headed for home. Neither of us could see any way that the scene in the library could be right. It was wrong in *so* many ways.
A few weeks later I got a call from someone in the office who was canvassing for donations for the new Chinese furniture for the Goethe Academy. I told them that I was not willing to make a donation for the furniture, but that if they wanted donations for better housing for the salaried workers at Renaissance I would be happy to contribute. And I said I didn’t want them to just record no donation from me, I said I want you to pass on why I am not willing to make it. I was enervated by the experience of a few weeks before and was speaking a bit forcefully.
The person who had called me was quiet for a few seconds after my diatribe, and I was thinking ‘oh great, I’ve done it now’. And then they said ‘Thank you for saying that. I think everyone I am calling wants to say it but they just don’t feel they can.’
How could a true school arrive at such a low point? And that was just the early 80s ……….
So, believers and supporters and apologists, has all this sort of thing been cleared up by now? Is there now a sense of free and open inquiry in the Fellowship? A sense that you can ask whatever you need to ask without any fear of retribution or reprisal?
Oh, sorry, I forgot …. no personal questions at meetings anymore. Hmmm. Well I guess the good thing about that is that you no longer need to fear that your question might be judged inappropriate
Hey Laura,
Astral Weeks is one of my top ten albums of all time. There are great stories about how it came to be recorded: Van mumbling instruction in an unintelligable brogue to a roomfull of New York jazz musicians who had no idea who he was or why they should be playing with him (other than the paycheck, of course). Evidently, a lot of the really mysto-great tracks were recorded after a dinner break that included copious amounts of wine, beer, and spirits. They stumbled back to the studio and Van stood in front of a mike with his guitar and proceded to play while the rest of the musicians just followed him. When you listen closely to that album, you can hear the time fluctuations, funny notes, bassist Richard Davis hitting the chord changes just a hair behind Van, etc. It’s sloppy, but God, it soars to heights few musicians know how to get to. Absolutely in the moment.
But, I digress…
I remember the talk about getting ready for the coming civilization. All the – what goes in the Ark, what does not. I remember looking around me at one point and thinking, “This crew is going to save civilization? These people are nothing but a bunch of dilettantes. Everyone has good intentions, but, where are the experts and masters in any necessary field?” And this was at a time when I was a “good” student trying very hard to fit myself into the school!
I get your gripe about creative output. I was a musician when I joined. I stopped playing because meetings were on Saturday Nights and it was more important to be there than in a bar or club. Later, it became apparent that I would not make enough money in the music biz to support my fof habit, so, off to day gig land I did go. Did not play a note for the first two or three years in. There are times when I’m still bothered by that particular decision, however, life is what it is and I’ve done what I have done. My anima says: No Regrets!
“And I’m stuck one more time, up on Cypress Avenue
Yes, I’m stuck one more time, up on Cypress Avenue
And I’m conquered in a car seat, and I’m thinking about you.”
Graduates re: 518
Thank you. That was great.
Hi Kid,
I have noticed before that your musical taste is often in tune with mine. I do love that Jens Lenkman song you referred to, and also the other songwriters you mentioned. Astral Weeks was my favorite listen around the time I left the Fellowship, and listening to it brings forever memories of Van the Man’s voice singing into my ears those mystical words.
These days I’m listening to a lot of “ecstatic”, free-form music, possibly created with the aid of “magic substances”. Here is a sample, let me know what you think. I’d love to hear an educated musician’s opinion, as I am basically just a very instinctive listener. I like the way it plays with my brain.
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=6GQCVOLbRU8
520 – Laura
re: “magic substances”
I liked the music. But mostly it reminded me of a book I recently read. Was wondering if others have read it and what they thought. “2012 – The Return of Quetzalcoatl” by Daniel Pinchbeck. Lots of ‘magical substances’ mentioned.
Thanks Robert C….1980 yes it was all already there and still students all over the world were joining….we know what the pain was…happily not many people are joining now….
Tthanks and I am glad you saw the light then…l saw the light many years later.
No wonder people do not want others to joing…to me that is external consideration.
Thanks again, very appreciated.
Laura,
Agreed. We do seem to share an aesthetic. Very cool video and song. I’d be surprised if that wasn’t made under the influence. Perhaps that cat holds the secret. For me, music has always created a space within my field of consciousness and unleashed mighty forces from my imagination. I remember denying that power while in the fof, but there was a part of me that wasn’t buying it.
Knowing what you like is where it’s at, isn’t it? Essence (or soul, or self) is a funny thing, it has no prescribed agenda of acceptable art. Liking the way something plays with your brain is just liking the way something plays with your brain. And I take Duke Ellington’s words to heart:
“If it sounds good, it is good.”
521 – James
There was an interesting article that Rolling Stone did on Pinchback. In more ways than one, he comes across as the Bobby Burton of the new psychedelic movement. I have not read the book, however. Terrence McKenna also talked a lot about 2012.
I don’t know about Pinchback but Terrence Mckenna was “the real deal…” The Archaic Revival and True Hallucinations are two books worth a look…
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=eOy3H4yyocQ
524 – Kid Shelleen
It is a very strange book and Mr. Pinchbeck is a strange guy. There is a lot about McKenna in the book. McKenna, crop circles, alien abductions, Mayan calendars, and a whole lot of magical substances. Have to wonder if he might have taken a few too many. Not the sort of thing that I would usually read, although magical substances are something I had a fair amount of experience with in the distant past. Have to give him credit for bravery though. He does have the spirit of a pioneer, a seemingly high level of intelligence, and he has some pretty interesting takes on a lot of subjects. Central idea is that we are at the end of a very large cycle, with a new one on the way, and a time ripe for change. Interesting at least, and in his defense I would say he does seem for the most part to be able to keep a sense of humor about himself. It does not sound like he is looking for followers, thank goodness.
525 – ‘ton
just watched one of the McKenna vids. Great stuff. Thanks
521 James Mclemore
I’m just finishing “2012”. Great book, IMO. It’s refreshing to be presented with so many wild possibilities, especially after being confined in the FoF’s narrow conceptual box for so many years. I’m thinking of taking a trip to that clinic in Tijuana!
regards, Charles
509 fat boy
Still avoiding answering. But never avoiding making sweeping, utterly insane statements and generalizations.
And stop telling us what we are all trying, and what we all know, and what the aim of the blog is. You don’t know shit, you’ve made that abundantly clear.
When will it all stop you ask, when you take your thumb out of your ass, shut the hell up, listen and learn something. That’s when it will stop, but i won’t hold by breath.
You’re a schmuck, and I doubt you’re ever going to transcend that. And your belief that you know what you’re talking about is exactly the thing that keeps you stupid. I no longer have any hope for you. You’re a waste of time.
515 James Mclemore
I don’t mind at all. Thanks.
509 And you’re a fucking baby. My condolences to your wife.
528 – Charles T
I liked the book also, and will readily admit that I have wondered lately just how available Iboga is.
521 James Mclemore
Hi James,
I haven’t read 2012 but I read Breaking Open the Head- I hope 2012 is his opus because while BOTH was interesting from several aspects aspects, I found him a bit too whiny and apologetic and limp wristed for my tastes.
Hey, but that’s just me.
488 Fat Boy: “I don’t think has come down to A influence as you suggest.”
The situation can be summarised as follows:
The FoF doesn’t work as a spiritual school. All you can hope for if you remain is a few moments of presence here and there and the occasional higher state. This is not spiritual awakening.
Your teacher is corrupt. This is surely obvious by now to all except the most blinkered. So if you remain you have to shut down your conscience.
These are simple facts, incontrovertible really.
So truly the only reasons to remain are fear and/or laziness.
A friend who remains recently told me “I stay because the FoF is my social club. I have no conscience.” I’m not inventing this! At least he was being honest, which is more than can be said for most.
Dear Vinnie and Fat boy and all others.
Conversation in The Apollo d’Oro today.
A. My social life has been so much better then the last 4 years.
B. How come?
A. I spent a lot of time with ex students and fencers and it is so much better then with you students.
THAT SAYS IT ALL FOR NOW. Enjoy your week-end.
fat boy 466
“The blog portrays RB as something evil …”
Thou sayest it.
Skeptical Optimist 354
“Old FOF … I’m curious about who you are, and why you are posting anonymously. ”
Been thinking about your question. The simple answer is that I have specific personal and private reasons that I honor in this way and that seem important, at least to me and for now.
But generally, as you’ve brought this topic up before in different contexts, seems like a good time to offer my take on this issue of anonymity – as it may differ from others.
Structurally, to my perception, one of the several reasons that the blog works is because of this interplay between the Open and the Anonymous. The Open offers a kind of credibility that might otherwise be lacking. The Anonymous offers ~ for the first time ~ a vehicle for those with stories to tell, to relate them honestly without apparent repercussions.
With exceptions, it strikes me that people who are in and have been in the Fellowship of Friends ~ unless they are still deeply in cult denial ~ can largely tell who is honestly relating their experience.
The downside, for bloggers, on those who are Open is that the comments of known friends or acquaintances are immediately stitched to their names – for good or ill. So it is possible that by being Open something is gained in the area of personal agency, and lost in the area of the expression of the “pure” idea of one’s comments. Also, when you are Open you lose privacy – which can be a true loss depending on your values.
Maybe the important fact is that many of peoples’ previously hidden stories are coming out ~ and for the first time. It seems to me that sunlight is a good disinfectant. Burtonism will not long survive real sunlight, despite the perverse too-forced morally sunny ministrations of his Vinnies and other sycophants.
To my view sunlight is good, stories are good, context & history are good.
Thus the option of, and even necessity for, a certain level of anonymity is a good thing. That the real value here is honesty – and if we want honesty, we ought not tax it.
Another primary reason that the blog may work is the providential and remarkable character of the Sheik. It is a kind of special irony that in turning down the offer to join the Fellowship – the Fellowship has joined him.
RobertC ~ 516 ~ wrote ~
“So, believers and supporters and apologists, has all this sort of thing been cleared up by now?”
__________________________
Well, sorta, they moved the TV to the study, which is between the ‘Meeting Room’ and the ‘Kitchen’; that’s where newbies get to down Viagra and watch pornographic movies to ready themselves for ‘The Press Release’.
Oh, and that’s where the newbies are lectured on what will occur and is to be expected via Robert Burton’s ‘War Room’, aka, ‘The Teacher’s Bedroom’…
Robert, do you still have that leopard pattern throw for your bed, that’s got to be one of the most tacky things I have ever seen in a bachelor’s pad, excepting the black velvet painting of the 70’s.
Re: Pinchback, McKenna, etc.
One of the best books I have read on the subject of ‘magical substances’ is Huston Smith’s ‘Cleansing the Doors of Perception’. He is one of the foremost Religious Studies scholars in the world and was around at Harvard when Leary, Alpert (Ram Dass) were doing their thing. He also participated in Walter Pahnke’s famous ‘Good Friday’ experiment with Psylocibin.
Iboga is a plant that grows naturally in Western Africa where ritual users describe the experience as “breaking open the head.” The westernized versionis called “Ibogaine,” and in clinical use is reputed to have great success in the treatment of addictions, especially alcoholism. This is a topic of some interest and I’ve followed Iboga for several years… the control and restrictions on a substance that can be of such value, that’s an issue with me.
On another topic,
Seven or so years ago, I had the privilege of sitting in on a college discussion with James George and afterward, about 8 or 10 attendees of the lecture went and had lunch with Mr. George in a loud (but good) fish-restaurant in Manyunk, just outside of Philly. I only bring this up because of questions regarding 4th way groups as viable or preferable options to the lesser fof…. was it sideways drift who asked? and my question to u is: r-u-serious?
When I met him, James George was in his early 90’s and “sharp as a tack.” He was connected to an east coast branch of the Gurdjieff Foundation I think (?) You can research it if you’re interested — google “James” George and follow the thread.
I use past-tense here because I don’t know if the venerable Mr. George is still with us here in the land of the “living.” I know a couple of people who were affiliated with that “4th way” organization and from conversations with them, my impression is this; if you’re looking for “work” you can find it there… (personally, I have as much work as I can handle). They practice the “temple dance” movements which may be a selling point for you, whoever you are and whatever your intentions.
This is for informational purposes only and is definitely not intended as an endorsement.
http://www.gurdjieff.org/george1.htm
535 Old FOF
I have no problems whatsoever with people who have left the FOF remaining anonymous on this blog. I can easily think there could be numerous valid reasons why some might wish to keep their identities hidden. I am not sure though that I understand the part where you spoke of the “downside of being ‘open”. It is not that I disagree – I just don’t think I quite get all of what you are saying in relation to being tied to other people who are posting, and that it weakens the comment somehow.
‘ton– I did the googling for James George. He is still alive and leading meetings (with his wife) in Toronto on Friday nights. Here’s the link: http://www.lightworkers.org/node/10986
I found another article that said he was 86 in 2004. It was an interview that took place shortly before his marriage to his current somewhat younger wife. He sounds like an interesting guy.
Second attempt, hope it’s not posted twice, it’s not that important — nevertheless…
Xena 540
thanks for the link and for “keeping it real.”
I must have seen Mr. George around 2000, if he’s 86 in ’04, he would have been about 79-80 years of age when I met him…. my memory of him is that of an older man…. Certainly wise and wizened.
It’s good to know that he still draws breath. His global / environmental / ecological approach to “the work” is an antidote to the more narcissistic interpretations of “the self” and “personal evolution.”
Laura 194 Thanks for another inspired post… keep it up.
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=o-eRM3_r1TI
Here’s the second half of the previous post and attempted posting, for what it’s worth…
diversion?
For conspiracy buffs, here’s some “wacky” — but interesting shit…
(“2012” reference @ about 4 mins). Warning: turn down the volume…
and probably best NOT to open this site first thing in the morning:
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=th9p7dG3INY
434 Bruce
Frankly, I couldn’t care less whether or not you believe me; I only wanted to know why you would attack someone who asked for your help. I certainly won’t be goaded into doing anything that would run counter to my aim. For what it’s worth, I assure you my intent is impeccable. I accept nothing; I reject nothing. For me, this is a situation unlike any other – contrived to encourage self-remembering – in which I attempt to be present as I would in any other. Having said all that, I like the idea of forcing them to throw me out, as opposed to quitting at some point. I’ll consider revealing my “name” and center location to you at some point so that you can get me in trouble with them. At the very least that should make things interesting. Give me some time to formulate a plan.
435 Vena
I believe in trying to extract value out of any and every situation. This situation offers me the opportunity to stalk in a strange new environment, in the company of people who and trying to do something most people don’t know anything about. To be honest, I’ve never been able to buy into any religion, so I’m really not worried about being brainwashed or taken advantage of. I can never know for sure if RB is a ‘Man no. 7’ or a lecherous fraud (though the former certainly seems more likely), so that really isn’t a primary concern for me. I’m interested in working. These people have tools and experience in this area. It is my intention to learn what I can from them, and I’m willing to pay a certain amount for the experience. I suppose I’m a pragmatist. I’ll use what works for me, discard the rest. If they ask for more money than I think the experience is worth, I’ll cry poverty or refuse to pay and we’ll see what happens from there.
453 David B.
I like the idea of asking tough questions, but what will that prove? Why would I get answers where no one else has? Like all self-anointed demagogues, I’m sure he finds a way to justify himself to his true believers – or perhaps he doesn’t even have to. The explanation “His ways are not our ways” would probably suffice. After all, who are we to question his judgment, right? I don’t doubt that these people are telling the truth. The man certainly sounds crazy. I don’t expect I’ll find anything that will exonerate him, much less deify him. That isn’t my goal. I’ll consider your suggestions, though. Thanks.
456 Yesri baba
I don’t know any such thing. I find Ouspensky’s descriptions of psychology useful in working on myself. I’d prefer not to go through life asleep, jumping from one identification to another, lost in imagination. I can see how I’ve done this in the past, and it has led to much weeping and gnashing of teeth. I want to be present and self-aware and to live a joyful life of non-attachment. Perhaps there is nothing more than this, but I intend to make the best of it.
479 WasKathleenW
I have similar feelings watching the US government spend my tax dollars. I guess it comes down to this: I don’t feel responsible for other people’s decisions, just as I don’t blame other people for mine. There are a million cons out there, and a sucker born every minute. Being a ‘victim’ is a choice – one I do not intend to make. Shit happens, then you die, and it’s all over…maybe. Whatever happens, I embrace what I cannot change and work with the rest. I’m not sure of anything, I’m just making effort and accepting results.
It’s not that I don’t empathize with your collective struggle; I just don’t make decisions based on 1) other people’s subjective experiences or 2) what others might think about me. To put it in Work terms, I guess I’ve stopped internally considering others. As far as I can tell, mindfulness is the ultimate morality. I’m going into this wide awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance. I am attached to nothing, so I have nothing to lose. Besides, even if RB is a bastard, one can hardly condemn each individual member for his trespasses. They seem to worship him; why, I don’t know. I find spending time with people who aim to be present makes it easier for me to remember myself. I’ve also found some of Burton’s tools to be useful. Yes, I am in, in one sense, as of this week.
481 Bruce
482 Bruce
See 434.
I’ll be in touch.
538 ‘ton
540 xena
541 ‘ton
I’ve met JG and had some contact with his group. Suffice it to say that although I personally prefer him and his people to the smarminess of the FOFers, I was not impressed with the Quality of the Work itself. What I heard was a lot of talk. I was young and impatient, however, and to be fair I may not have taken the time to get a complete picture of the group’s work. A possibility for the future, perhaps.
Lateral Drift @ 543
I’ve also found some of Burton’s tools to be useful. Yes, I am in, in one sense, as of this week.
**********
Drift 534
To quote you: “I suppose I’m a pragmatist… Like all self-anointed demagogues, I’m sure he finds a way to justify himself to his true believers – or perhaps he doesn’t even have to. The explanation “His ways are not our ways” would probably suffice. After all, who are we to question his judgment, right?… Besides, even if RB is a bastard, one can hardly condemn each individual member for his trespasses. They seem to worship him; why, I don’t know.”
Drift… If “we” can take you at your word here, you are searching for something… In this regard, beware naivete’ and I would go further to say: “be afraid, be very afraid… ”
These excerpts from your last post are all indications of “brain-wash” (but of course you won’t see it that way.)
In 544 you write:
“I was young and impatient, however, and to be fair I may not have taken the time to get a complete picture…”
I suggest that you change to “present-tense” here…
Like I said, I’m not endorsing any “4th way” group.
I’ll offer you some friendly advice based upon experience: hang-out here at the GF and save your money…
but I realize you’ll have to make your own mistakes and live through it.
There’s something odd and interesting going on here in the manifestations of Vinnie and Lateral. As has been pointed out, they almost seem like the same person, but not quite. Neither of them bares any relation to any real person I’ve met in the FoF, or outside for that matter. Personally I find it incomprehensible that a real human being could be so superficial. But maybe this is the shape of things to come?
543 Lateral Drift
It’s not my intention to “get you in trouble”.
Lateral Drift,
Your choice and use of language is that of someone who has been in the Fellowship for some time. Do you forget that we have been there and can recognize it?
If you are what you say you are, you wouldn’t care enough about what the likes of us think to continue hanging out here and arguing your point. If you are what you say you are, you would have gone away already.
As I said in an earlier post, the foofer shills who show up here think we are all stoopid and naive. If you want to fool us, craft your posts more carefully.
Give it up.
543 ~
“I’ve also found some of Burton’s tools to be useful.”
__________________________________________
LOL… sometimes little Freudian slips like that one just says it all; Robert Burton’s ‘tool’ is indeed ‘useful’ for such cult members as #543, for raping, choking, peeing with the boys, a Variety-Singaporean Porridge of STD’s and holding up everyone waiting for the Sunday meeting to start on time.
Gosh ‘Lateral’, how low can your ‘Drift’ go?
To get back to a question I was asked whether I thought Robert abused some of his students. In short, and for lack of better words to really describe Robert’s behavior I would have to say he has abused some students. But again, as I have said before this is a very relative term and can mean many things.
For instance, Bruce verbally abuses people on this blog, my friend 15 years ago punched me and this was physical abuse. I once drank myself into oblivian and this was alcohol abuse.
With Robert, we are talking about sexual abuse and abuse of power. I have had sex with Robert at least 50 times but I was not sexually abused; I accepted this and was glad to share this intimate experience with him. I am not gay, and it was odd at first but there was no threats are overt coersion but only a gentle push at times to be with him. I have no resentments or anger in regards to this.
I see him as a machine with sexual impulses and maybe he is under no femine dominance to hide this. At the same time I do not necessary look at him as conscious being, but how I do look at him since I travelled with him for many years is that I have never met a person that is so dedicated to BEING PRESENT. And my other verifications with being around him and my travels with him is he is trying to teach us, his students to reach for this higher state.
But how do I explain the abuse that I think I see with other students, that is Robert’s sexual advances to his students. At this moment I cannot. I have read explanations on this blog, but when I talk about stories being inflated on this blog I don’t mean they are lying but just that each persons perceptions can spin an experience in the way he wants and make it look negative.
Maybe in the next few months I will understand more and I will side with you more critical bloggers, but maybe I will see it in another way. Someone early today suggeste that this idea of abuse is not connected to morality; it most certainaly is in my opinion. We are a direct result from our culture, laws, and feminine dominance of what is right and what is wrong.
551
That was the saddest post I have read on this entire blog.
551 ~
…but only a gentle push at times to be with him.
________________________________________
You’re such a softy ‘Fat Boy’;
sometimes I just want to go out and buy you a case of Slim Fast and a half gallon of ‘Bob’s Bemoaned Bourbon from The Burberry Burbank Bathtubs’,
blend it all together on the ‘gentle cycle’ (of course)
and let you just get it over with;
I mean, the celebration side of ‘getting it over with’, not the Crossing of the River Styx, you’re already on that row boat already.
Lateral Drift, I have difficulty believing that you are real. Where did the list of the work Is and sequence come from if you are just about to join? And why post it like that? I agree that you are just a shill. And strange that Fat Boy suddenly reappears too. If you read the early archives, you will see that someone calling himself “John” tried to pull the same trick, saying that he was just joining the London Center. But then we found out that no one had joined in London for months. At least you have the sense to “join” in a non-specific “major city”.
551
Dear Fat Boy,
You will probably one day understand that you HAVE been sexually abused, and when the “contradictions” buffer lifts, you won’t feel so glad to have accomodated Robert. Abuse doesn’t have to be violent or negatively charged to qualify as an act of mistreatment. Often adolescent and teenage children, approached by a sexual predator they happen to love, find the advances “odd at first but with no threats or overt coercion, only a gentle push at times…” Is this abuse, then? It’s the same answer in any culture, under the laws of any country, and feminine dominance is not the issue here. Sometimes help in removing the “contradictions” is needed so the answer can ring true and healing can begin.
So you’re not a child, but why would you agree to have sex with a gay man? Is Robert old enough to be your father? Did you want to please him? Did he make you feel special? Was this a surrender to your teacher and therefore serving a higher purpose? Did your own questions melt away as Robert convinced you to let him have his way with you?
You said that “each persons perceptions can spin an experience in the way he wants and make it look negative”. Or maybe make it look positive?
Just as all of us have done, you see in Robert what you want to see. Maybe it’s a good time for you to exercise some critical thinking. You’ll never convince anyone here that Robert is not a sexual predator. It’s pretty irksome for you to be okay with that but such a weanie when Bruce or anyone else is “mean” to you. Your real best friends might be right here.
Hi Fat Boy,
maybe because my optimism is not skeptical enough, I do not at present agree with Bruce’s assessment that you are beyond hope. You seem to be immersed in the marinating phase, and as we all know that process can take a while.
Like uno, I was immediately struck by your “gentle push” reference, would you care to elaborate further on this point?
If you are not yet ready to do this under the excruciating lights of the blog, please try it first in the cozyness of your private life, just between yourself and Fat Boy. Recount the experience, the feel of it, Robert’s words and actions towards you, the Is that went through your head and the sensations that went through your body during those 50 and more sexual encounters. Once you feel ready, please come back and try to explain in your own words what you really mean by “gentle push” and in what ways you were glad to share this intimate experience.
By now you must realize that what people here have been asking from you all along is not to conform to our opinions, but to let aside the whining and dare to express some more real, personal emotions and perceptions. Beyond the twisted work language, the self doubt, the fear of judgment, the ideological justifications, let us have a real taste of Fat Boy’s intimate life with the Teacher. Who knows, you may be able to convince us it was a love affair after all.
PS the Bourbon might help
548 Bruce
But I may want you to. That might be the fun part. What can they do to me against my impeccable will? I have nothing to lose. If you will give me your e-mail address I’ll give you my FOF name and center location.
549 WasKathleenW
Silly rabbit, tricks are not for you. Much of my terminology isn’t 4th Way at all, and everything I do is carefully crafted, damn it. You don’t know anything about me other than what I’ve told you. I have explained my reasons for posting here. If I don’t respond to your taunts, you assume I’ve disappeared. If I explain myself, you accuse me of trying too hard. It’s a no-win situation – but it sure is fun!
550 unoanimo
I’m glad you liked my pun. I knew you’d jump on it. Must you bring everything down to the level of a horny adolescent? This is serious business, man!
551 fat boy
You seem to be one of the few people here who isn’t playing victim. While I wouldn’t choose to do what you did, kudos on taking responsibility for your choices. I hope you found what you were looking for.
554 Draco
Asked and answered in 543. I am in, as of this week. I received the work ‘I’s and sequence information immediately upon joining. Why post it? Why not? Someone asked for it.
Many of you sound heavy with self-importance. You take this much more seriously than I do. Get over yourselves! I have just as much reason to be suspicious of you as you do of me. Why are you so paranoid? Why would the FOF care to ‘infiltrate’ a blog of bitter ex-members? (They speak of you – in only the vaguest terms – as sheep who wandered from the flock. It’s funny to watch them avoid talking about ‘the unpleasantness,’ as if the whole world didn’t know about the scandal.) Regardless, I don’t intend to give away my ‘name’ and location to a group of strangers, not knowing who you might be or how the information may be used.
It is sad that so many of you feel you’ve been victimized by the FOF. So far as I can tell, you voluntarily gave your time, you money and your bodies to this cult, expecting them to provide you with something in return that you never got – either because they don’t have it or because you were unable to get it. You feel used, and who wants to take responsibility for those feelings? It is much easier to shift the blame for our so-called mistakes. Being a victim is a choice. I advise you to choose otherwise. Tell the world about your experience, so that others can learn from it, and let it go. Have you discarded all the beliefs that brought you to the work in the first place? There is only now, the present moment. Divine or not, it’s all we’ve got.
levybooks@email.com
For Our Kitty Cat ‘Fat Boy’ ~
______________________________________
Love to You All, even you C.L.
557 ~
“There is only now, the present moment. Divine or not, it’s all we’ve got.”
___________
Well and we’ve got you too, right?
“For instance, Bruce verbally abuses people on this blog, my friend 15 years ago punched me and this was physical abuse. I once drank myself into oblivian and this was alcohol abuse.”
551 Fat Boy: I’m not sure how these examples relate to what we’re talking about here. Don’t you think you might be using a little bit too much relativity here? When you speak like this you sound like someone who actually might have been abused and has not recognized it yet.
Fat boy….and others.
STATES: At the same time I do not necessary look at him as conscious being, but how I do look at him since I travelled with him for many years is that I have never met a person that is so dedicated to BEING PRESENT. And my other verifications with being around him and my travels with him is he is trying to teach us, his students to reach for this higher state.
What you see as being present is being addicted to states. Robert is very good in creating world 12….thats is why we lik(ed ) to go to meetings. This makes (made) us dependent Can you go to your inner silence ..there where (this is theory) world 3 and world 0 can appear….no words …dare you?
Dare you to sit with Ph-l-p L-c-s. Dare you?
Dare you ask Robert to sell one piece of antiques and sent that money o a person like –J-hn –s-m? Dare you?/
Be practical and dare and be your own inner light instead of being dependent. It is another form of dependency where your in dear Fat boy. You are a state junkie and a man who has a strange sexual inclination to have 50 times sex with Robert and enjoying it. How is your sex life with your woman….Please do not tell us but I feel bad for both of you to waste your energy like that.
May the world pray for you and all the planets and stars and whatever is out their…you need it.
O’onopooonooooooooooooo
dequipme
460 Laura (in response to 398)
Laura,
thank you for your answer and understanding I was not attacking you. I truly wanted to understand the anger, what is that makes you or me or anyone else here become infuriated.
These are good things to look in the face and not to what they seem like…
With the “great” work we did in the fof of not expressing negativity we really started shutting down parts of ourselves, suffocating our own spirit, our personal artisitic inclinations or otherwise. If we were not “objective” (and how could we?), we were just machines…I remember the depression occuring for this kind of devaluation in my own being.
Even a personal tragedy had to be transformed, I was not allowed to have my own feelings because a sick voice kept telling me it was all mechanical and so it was bad. C influence was cruel and wanted the best for me.
That was a hard one to shake off and the beginning of my liberation from the fof, a journey to recover the parts of my soul I gave up or were taken from me in less or more subtle ways… a different kind of self re-member-ing.
I keep working on this recovery of these lost parts from the time before and during the fof; at one point you mentioned breath work, I do other things, but do not want to give away too much here because as you know I like to keep my privacy for my own reasons.
In fact this blog as my partner said: it’s like an Indian poker, or a poker poker, it’s a bit weird sometimes because I know you, you know me, but Ton for example does not know me and vice versa, but I know Charles T. and Joel F. who do not know me but they know you…
Things are not what they seem, they seem from our own side, and this is the beginning of the Great Mistake someone said.
I try to remember this more often.
I do not experience anger anymore. Some people stay in bad relationships their whole lives. I left mine after 20 years. I think that’s a good thing.
I realized what I just said was very vague. What I meant to say was I do not experience anger with regards to spending 20 years in the Fellowship. Not that I do not experience anger. I still experience that. Oh yeah.
Bares reposting
Graduates is this a true conversation?
Here’s the scam:
Teacher: I know something you don’t.
Student: Yeah, what’s that?
Teacher: It can’t be put into words, but believe me, you have no idea what is going on.
Student: Really?
Teacher: You don’t realize it but your life depends on knowing what I know.
Student: How do I find out?
Teacher: First you need to adopt the right attitude; you need to realize that you are nothing, a lost soul, while at the same time I am everything, a realized soul.
Student: You know the truth while I don’t know, so I need to learn from you?
Teacher: You don’t even know you don’t know. Yes, in order to ‘know’ you must spend time around me.
Student: What do I need to do to spend time with you?
Teacher: Wait here until I feel like I have time for you.
Student: How long will I have to wait?
Teacher: It depends on how much conviction you have to pay; I don’t spend my time on people for nothing.
Student: But I am willing to pay everything!
Teacher: Prove that by coming up with some serious money and then we can talk. Remember, those that don’t make efforts get nothing.
Student: Money, Okay. Anything else?
Teacher: There are certain needs of mine that only the finest students can be entrusted with.
Student: Master, I am willing to pay anything in order to know the truth and enlighten my soul.
Teacher: Get in line behind these other eager students and do whatever you can to try and standout as more deserving than the next undeserving suitor. I’ll let you know when I need you, what I need you for and how much I’ll need.
Student: Master I will do anything, walkover everyone, to attract your life-giving attention and validate me as the special person that I know I really am.
*******
The real question is what kind of shallow piece of rotten humanity would derive the slightest satisfaction out of such an obvious fraud? My guess is that no one with a higher understanding of humanity would use other people selfishly. If a man is no longer ‘attached’ to the usual desires that rule over the lives of typical men then why wouldn’t he spend his time working toward offering sincere people what useful information he had available to him in order to aid them in understanding the higher realization that might be possible concerning the nature of existence? Would physical servitude and psychological ordeal really be necessary? Are there any non-egomaniacs standing in a position above the routines, the insecurities and the anxieties of ordinary men ready and willing to aid those able to use their time on this world to develop their higher nature?
Charles T. 533
“The FoF doesn’t work as a spiritual school. All you can hope for if you remain is a few moments of presence here and there and the occasional higher state. This is not spiritual awakening.
A friend who remains recently told me “I stay because the FoF is my social club. I have no conscience.” I’m not inventing this! At least he was being honest, which is more than can be said for most.”
Hi Charles,
Just wanted to add a voice to your current on why the Fellowship of Friends does not work as a spiritual school and can be equally damaging as a club.
There is no transformation, no digestion in the FOF. Not in personal, social or community work. Not in first or second line.
The leaders, Robert, Girard and those in the inner circle have not addressed their own lives to work with and the school has not allowed for the students to work with their own lives either.
They were not willing to work with their own raw material, they invented another material to separate from, their own weaknesses.
The issues inside the Fellowship are not to cope or understand the personal or social difficulties of life, of the fourth way, but making of the difficulties a legitimate indulgence.
Robert’s relationship with student pimps and whores is out in the light as if it were the most natural thing and what is put under the carpet is the possibility of questioning this as something questionable. To make it unquestionable they have had to dress, indoctrinate, construct a huge paraphernalia of standards way above and beyond reason so that the actual facts are manageable.
The way beyond reason is justified by way above divine.
The simple facts of people’s lives have been shunned to replace them for the disneyland adornements of Robert’s hieroglyphic life, all very pompous and overly acted to make it seem real effort but unfortunately not more than a ridiculous hoax.
Life is hard and difficult enough, beautiful and worth addressing enough for there to be the need for such an overstatement that thoroughly neglects to appreciate it in its own terms. Both the simplicity and the complexity of life have been replaced by the made up life of Robert’s and his enabler’s psycopathy.
There is no school in the Fellowship and the made up “Club” is extremely dangerous. No one can just take the good aspects of a place and leave the negative one’s as if they could not touch him. The inability to react to Robert’s abuses is already showing the damages that students are experiencing. The mentality that thinks that one can go about life simply using the good aspects of anything and caring less about the others is already a sick mentality so prevalent in Vinnie, Fat boy and Lateral Drift, all fellowship products.
Certainly it is Girard’s mentality as well who will affirm without the slightest doubt that the ills of the Fellowship are not nearly as bad as the goods and that is why he does not find them worthy of concern.
When people loose the ability to become concerned about the consequences of their acts and the human suffering that comes from them there is obvious reason for even greater concern about the institution that is developing such psychopathic behavior.
Is it not amazing for students to realize that they have replaced the work on themselves, their own lives, for transforming their own suffering towards Robert’s abuses, social and individual?
It is wonderful to be outside the Fellowship and slowly recover one’s own tred ground, the one I had given up to take the whole of the Fellowship of Friends in its own terms.
I am sincerely sorry for those of you, still students, who have lost enough trust in yourselves to recover what is left of your own lives and give up the icing of Robert’s extremely sad play.
As of now on, I will continue to treat Girard Haven as the once admired teacher who has betrayed everything I believed he stood for and will expose in every way I can his personal and social inconsistencies in the hope that neither he nor the rest of the students in the Fellowship do any further harm to themselves or others.
fat boy @ 551
I have had sex with Robert at least 50 times but I was not sexually abused; I accepted this and was glad to share this intimate experience with him. I am not gay, and it was odd at first but there was no threats are overt coersion but only a gentle push at times to be with him.
Lateral Drift @ 557
What can they do to me against my impeccable will? I have nothing to lose.
******
I think there is a possibility that these two characters are not real. It could be that we are being had. Are there actual people this stupid? I have my doubts.
557 Lateral Drift
Much of my terminology isn’t 4th Way at all,
——————–
Exactly my point.
Fat boy 551
Lateral Drift 557
Vinnie the Fish 294 and posts various
12 observations on the present FOF defenders
or, Tips For Better Playwriting
1). Funny how, going all the way back, it always eventually seems to be three, in phases of new names.
2). Not sure if it is one person with three personas, or three useful idiots.
3). Please note how they come in waves. Coordinated on whose orders? Certainly not Robert Burtons’s; after all – they told us so.
4). Interesting that they all present themselves as male heterosexuals.
5). It is suspicious that they are all very articulate – in the same way. And how they mostly point out bloggers’ faults, but do not substantively address issues raised.
6). Fascinating how they have become more refined in their arguments (since the beginning of the blog where they were mostly denying, dull, threatening or insulting) – now the underlying message of all three is conceding what has to be conceded – but minimizing it and saying – hey look at me: you can still work on yourself in the Fellowship of Friends. And by the way, (by citing phantom or real insults) look how mean, low-down, and bitter (or old) these terrible ex-students have become …. Philistines really, who are anti-sex, or anti-homosexual, or who, in any case, no longer or ever understood the rarified beauty of the male bonding experience ….
7). They kind of feel like constructs that a (poor) playwright might create: Vinnie is the happy-go-lucky tramp in London (inconsistently using American english) hitting on KA (so, supposedly hetero); “fat boy” is the married hetero twit with the “no biggie” butt-fucking the “Avatar of the Age” is good-for-my-evolution attitude – and certainly carries no emotional or spiritual downside or baggage for me or others; Lateral Drift is the on-the-fence pondering putative possible future good student who doesn’t see what the fuss is about as it might be good for his (future) work – as he slips up here-and-there and speaks in “mature” work language.
8). It is also odd how superficial they all are.
9). It is troubling how little conscience is involved in their presentation. Only passing regard for the certainly hundreds and possibly thousands who have been wounded by Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends.
10). It is telling how they casually dismiss or DO NOT ADDRESS the financial impropriety, the new sophomoric allurement direction away from the fourth way of the “teaching,” or the fundamental underlying issues related to abuse of students. Or engage in meaningful revelation about their personal struggles.
11). My suspicion is, given how far the aspirations and moral understandings of the current leadership have clearly fallen, this is the best that the current Fellowship of Friends can do: completely ignore virtue as an aim, and present iniquity as a neutral value. And this is supposed to be attractive?
12). It is terrible if these personas have been created by one clever salaried student – as a current (and may I interject: poor, ineffectual and self-defeating) “ad” to help stem the tide of students leaving – and precious few joining. But, purely in terms of virtue, it would so much worse if these vicious amoral “students” are actually real.
570 Old FOF
And they all want to be treated with respect.
Awhile back, I saw a reference to the fof hiring public relations people. I can’t remember whether this was factual or just speculation about what the fof might be expected to do.
If this was factual, I do have to wonder if the current threesome is carrying out the suggestions of an outside third party who doesn’t have the depth of understanding of the situation to offer less transparent solutions.
And, yes Old FoF, it would be so much worse if these vicious amoral “students” are actually real. I hope they aren’t.
“Whenever I watch TV and see those poor starving kids all over the world, I can’t help but cry. I mean, I’d love to be skinny like that, but not with all those flies and death and stuff.”
Mariah Carey
Sometimes, when I read the most outrageous posts on this blog, or perceive equally outrageous things in 3d world everyday, I get this uneasy feeling of inhabiting the matrix. One thing seems for sure, no one can walk a mile in anyone else’s shoes, and experience is the only teacher.
It occurred to me that maybe instead of being mental patients or imaginary characters, Vinnie and Drift could just be really really young. Weren’t we at one point like that, silly and brave and enthusiastic and self-centered and naive and full of shit? Prompted by such thoughts I recovered an old diary I kept for a few months at the green age of 22. It was written shortly after joining the Fellowship, and lo and behold, look at some of the gems scattered throughout its pages (I am translating for you, and keep in mind that this hurts):
“I need chocs and suffering to reach understanding.”
“I am working on reaching a condition of impermeability. Kindness and self-control.”
“More aims! More efforts!”
“I had this thought that the school is the only help I have ever received (C influence). What help from parents and friends and lovers? I have felt this disembodied power pick me up by the shoulders and lift my head up and say to me: go on, be strong, remember you have value only inasmuch as you are mine.”
“One cannot rely on life people, just as one cannot rely on one self.”
“Give up art that expresses negative emotions (and that elicits them in us).”
“Thinking brings upset, being present is laborious.”
“S. has said some interesting things about the school: there are schools with a higher level of being than ours, and Robert himself has said that this is a school for beginners. Robert’s theory is that regardless, C influence has chosen to work with THIS school, and this is the subtle, fundamental, inconceivable difference”.
“Presence is all we have, nothing more.”
“Paola (one of my best friends) thinks I run the risk of becoming stiff as a board, too perfect, too controlled”.
Etcetera etcetera
Was I hooked or what? Sounds familiar?
And also: “the most terrifying element in human nature is uncontrolled selfishness”, so maybe I could have given myself some good advice if I only would have listened.
Ok, that was sobering. I am gonna pour myself a glass of Bourbon and ponder about sweet dreams and flying machines for a while.
570/#12 – Old FOF
572 – WasKathleenW
Before reading either of your posts, I had found myself hoping that these people were not real.
Thanks Old FOF for that whole post.
Oh, god, Laura! That was brave of you !(and inspiring….hmmmm where are those old writings?) Of course you wrote those hopeful things to yourself privately and did not try to ‘correct’ (bludgeon) others with them. And you considered what your friend said without dismissing her. And the ‘chocolate angle’ IS absolute truth!
Yes, as Elena said “The mentality that thinks that one can go about life simply using the good aspects of anything and caring less about the others is already a sick mentality so prevalent in Vinnie, Fat boy and Lateral Drift, all fellowship products.” Products. products.
Since the fof is not a democracy and is all about following a leader then members who say contrary to this are lying. Why? Hey FB Vin LD, why are you guys lying? Are you fictional products? Vin, you don’t need to have RB as your guru to show off your benevolence to some old downtrodden lady or to get girls to watch you sway around. FB where is your wife? LD your willful blindness is not attractive or sophisticated. If the fof is the cult for these kinds of characters, then -there you have it- and the nature of a ‘descending octave’ is ever clearer. Maybe the fof needs to switch PR firms.
Has anyone read the book by Gary Lachman,In search of P.D.Ouspensky? Is it worth reading?
#570 Old FOF
“…this is the best that the current Fellowship of Friends can do: completely ignore virtue as an aim, and present iniquity as a neutral value.”
This, sadly, is pretty much it.
Bruce
WasKathleenW
Laura
Others
And on reflection after your posts I too hope if they are actual persons, that they are just young. And yes, maybe many of us were versions of the Vinnies as younger seekers. The defenders do indicate they want respect, but it seems like they mostly want shelf space.
And it is a PR problem – but a REAL public relations problem. And serious PR professionals know that the first rule is: you have to fix the real underlying problem.
This is going to sound naïve, but there is a precedent from my first “school.”
The Fellowship of Friends membership – meaning probably the existing leadership or maybe serious older students – has to get Robert Burton under control. They need to UNDERSTAND That they have the power and the moral and legal obligation to stop or at least isolate the sexual and financial impropriety.
The Farm in Tennessee staged a revolt from leader Stephen Gaskin (St. Stephen) who too was hijacked by power and similarly abused his role. The resolution was a serious mediation that left the main group and property still functioning – and Stephen was provided an area nearby to live and write.
The Farm was a kind of more organic version of the FOF Property started by a big group of ex-hippies out of San Francisco (and others who joined) under the practice of trying to live in the now
Nick S really ought to call off the bloggers again – who are doing the Fellowship no favors (Nick?). And if there are any other adults still left in the Fellowship of Friends, they ought to start figuring out how to begin to address the corruption. Maybe even a joint committee of select ex-students and students? – to begin to try to figure out how to begin.
There may not be much to save, but something is better than nothing – and if virtue is injected into the vicious cycle – the surprises may begin to be on the upside. One good outcome of The Farm situation is what didn’t happen. It did not have a violent or unusually strange ending.
Offered in good faith.
Re: WasKathleenW, post #572, and to others…
Some months ago, I was privy to a meeting where possible countermeasures to the blog were being discussed. One such countermeasure was to introduce counter-bloggers, to disrupt or discredit the bloggers, and thereby to lessen the potentially destructive influence of the blog. I don’t know if “professional” blog-busters have been brought on board, but I would not be surprised.
So, I would advise all consistent posters to not be naive about this ‘actively monitoring presence’. (Also, to not be intimidated by it.) Some bloggers obviously have pieced things together for themselves and are not naive, but there is still a lot of distracting “buzz” related to this topic.
To counteract the FoF countermeasures, the best course of action might be simply to not “go for the bait” that is thrown out by blog imposters. “Chumming” is a prime tactic, and unfortunately I see many of you spending your (and the blog’s) time and energy chasing the bait around and around like schools of hungry minnows.
Practice a bit of indifference and restraint, folks. You don’t have to swim up to, and nibble on, every f***ing post! Focus on useful goals, and let these imposters fall away like the shills and shadows they are.
579 my2bits
Pretty interesting. This has been mentioned sporadically ever since the first three assholes appeared.
It makes sense because they have consistently minimized the salient facts of the blog all along. Impenetrable school-speak in the face of horrifying stories.
I think it would be a useful assumption to work from.
Except it’s hard to imagine the FOF even using a person like Vinnie in that role. He is so clearly sociopathic that anyone, except an idiot, who would look to him as an inviting example of the FOF clearly is way off their rocker.
On the other hand, Lateral Drift has given me his name and center. Hopefully we will know more “in due course” (god that phrase gives me the willeys-one of RB’s old catch-alls).
Perhaps we can’t know for certain at the moment. But the effort to redefine the discussion is pernicious and needs to be stopped everytime because one weakness a blog and the internet has is that only the last few posts are very active. And blog memory can be short. For example, to define RB’s disgusting, destructive, predatory, mentally ill, sick sexual nature as ‘homosexual’ is extremely misleading and completely false and everytime some blog person asserts this that assertion needs to be countered quickly and effectively. There are several issues that the counter bloggers always attempt to redefine. Another (that gets me) is to equate style with content and to discard content because the style is judged to be ‘bad’ in some way, – usually just “too negative”. This would seem to be more an effort to retain members because most regular, smart, non indoctrinated people can see thru that pretty fast! But to redefine the topic and dismiss because of style are tried and true political tactics, and in a way this blog is a political instrument, therefore I think they should be addressed when they get flung into the mix.
No reason we can’t have some fun here too and poke fake blog people and each other just ever so slightly (some gentle pushes?) to test to see if we are real. I don’t get the feeling that whatever the current bla bla bla on this blog is that the concrete efforts of some (Uno, Elena, Joseph, Ames, others) are so easily distracted. The Res Ispa Loquitur page is *brilliant* as a longer term resource – a real counter to the short memory and attention span nature of an active blog.
—————–
“I hope they never find out that lightning has a lot of vitamins in it, because do you hide from it or not?” Jack Handey
KA 575
yes, you noticed that tasty little freudian slip.. in fact, I’m in the process of eating some luxury sponge cakes with real orange fruit filling, half-coated in dark chocolate. Yum! And it does seem to help understanding. :.)
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=i6N0sNMKFO4
Re: post #584, from KA
Thanks for your post, KA. I appreciate the balance that you offer to the topic of how best to deal with counter-bloggers.
Yes, it is quite right to be swift in pointing out glaring un-truths and misconceptions, and yes, it’s fine and proper to have fun poking at these guys/gals!
My point in post #579 was to recommend against our spending an undue amount of time and energy reacting to posts from suspected counter-bloggers, thereby enabling them to succeed in diluting the blog’s force and usefulness.
Daily Card:
Saturday , October 13, 2007:
It is difficult to reach the four wordless breaths, and equally difficult to remain there. When I am by myself and I reach long BE, I sometimes put my hands up on the wall, like a child, in order to remain present during the four
wordless breaths.
Love, Robert
FatBoy Exposed:
Fatboy Slim – Bird of Prey 05:04
This is the essence of FatBoy: Flying high but going nowhere.
Descriptive text, script, lyrics:
TOP SECRET
CONFIDENTIAL
NOT TO BE HANDLED
BY THE PATIENT
1964
[Child pulling petals off a daisy
out in an open field.]
Child:
one, six, fwee, four, five, seven, six, sev…eight, nine, ni…
[Child realizes there are no more petals to remove and count. Pan into close up of child’s face. View enters child’s right eye.]
Announcer:
10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0
[Scenes of nuclear
explosion going off.]
Voice over of Lyndon B. Johnson:
These are the stakes (0:44):
To make a world in which all of
Gods children can live
… or to go into the darkness.
[Cut to scene in military flight
center wait room. On the TV:]
We must either love each other
… or we must die.
Voice over Announcer on TV:
Vote for President Johnson
on November 3rd.
The stakes are too high
for you to stay home.
[Scenes of pilot going for flight
in military jet.]
Bird of Prey
Bird of Prey
Flying high
Flying high
Bird of Prey
Bird of Prey
In the Summersky
Flying high
Flying high
Flying high
Take me on your Fly
Flying high
…
Flying high
…
Bird of Prey
Bird of Prey
Flying high
Flying high
Bird of Prey
Bird of Prey
In the Summersky
Flying high
Bird of Prey
Bird of Prey
Gently passed us by
[Scenes of explosions destroying
country side and military objectives.]
Flying high
…
Flying high
…
Bird of Prey
[Pilot ejects; goes on sky dive.]
Bird of Prey
Flying high
Flying high
Bird of Prey
Bird of Prey
Gently passed us by
Flying high
Flying high
Flying high
Flying high
Flying high
Flying high
Flying high
Changed me on your Fly
Flying high
[Pilot lands but was all the
time lying on the floor of
military flight center wait
room imagining the
experience.]
TOP SECRET
CONFIDENTIAL
NOT TO BE HANDLED
BY THE PATIENT
What is wrong in our little world of Fellowship of Friends escapees and inmates is the fact that there are currently more than 1500 humans with their intelligence so suspended and distorted that they believe that being a paying, supporting member of “the school” is something that actually increases their consciousness, meanwhile the rest of the universe directly witnesses just the opposite fact about them. The fewer in number they become the more convinced they are of being the special few that are privileged to see reality. The more irresponsible, impulsive and selfishly criminal their leader becomes then the more the followers believe themselves blessed with the necessary curse that will wake them up. They are not killing and eating their own babies yet, as some ancient cults used to do, but these are some of the most unconscious people on earth today and of course they could hardly be more proud of themselves. Are there any of them still there worth the trouble to startle out of their near terminal state of unconsciousness? Why not just let them rot? The rest of the world knows exactly what keeps the numbers there, that certain mixture of fear and vanity, while the hypnotized captives pretend to themselves that they are rising above the exact psychological disabilities that enslave them. While their knowledge distorts into figments of deranged imagination that even young teenagers have the insight to laugh at they imagine that they become free of imagination itself by willingly stopping the intelligent part of their minds from operating. Their teacher continuously repeats the basic cult formula: don’t think, don’t think, only think of me and glory! His earnestly dedicated zombies struggle to force the outside world from their awareness so that only the ritualized falseness of their dwindling ersatz-culture is left to suffocate the normal functioning of their consciences. What is wrong is that there are still more than 1500 of them, a cult this unsophisticated and openly raw in its exploitation only deserves about a dozen hardcore criminal perpetrators.
Nowhere Man = FatBoy
Nowhere Man – The Beatles 03:08
Lennon:
There must be a word for what ‘e is.
Be’ les singing:
He’s a real nowhere Man,
Sitting in his Nowhere Land,
Making all his nowhere plans
for nobody.
Doesn’t have a point of view,
Knows not where he’s going to,
Isn’t he a bit like you and me?
Nowhere Man, please listen,
You don’t know what you’re missing,
Nowhere Man, the world is at your command.
He’s as blind as he can be,
Just sees what he wants to see,
Nowhere Man can you see me at all?
Nowhere Man, don’t worry,
Take your time, don’t hurry,
Leave it all till somebody else
lends you a hand.
Doesn’t have a point of view,
Knows not where he’s going to,
Isn’t he a bit like you and me?
Nowhere Man, please listen,
You don’t know what you’re missing,
Nowhere Man, the world is at your command.
He’s a real Nowhere Man,
Sitting in his Nowhere Land,
Making all his nowhere plans
for nobody.
Making all his nowhere plans
for nobody.
Making all his nowhere plans
for nobody.
Lennon:
Okay men, all aboard.
Let’s go somewhere.
Ringo:
What about ‘im?
Lennon:
‘e’s ‘appy enough going around in circles.
Ringo:
Aah! Poor little fella.
McCartney:
I don’t know.
Ringo is just a sentimentalist.
Ringo:
Aah, took at ‘im.
Can’t ‘e come with us?
…
Ay, ah, Mr. Bo
[short for you know who],
you can come with us
if you like.
Mr. Bo:
You mean you would take a Nowhere Man?
Ringo:
Yeh, c’mon, we’ll take you somewhere.
555 Across the River and Laura 556 were the only two responses to my 551 that I felt were sincere. The other handful of responses were mainly sarcastic, defensive, insultive, and very opinionated to what is right.
My feeling is you are all good people but my other feeling is something like compassion can be lost when you get behind a computer and start pecking away freely at the key board. It is difficult to be sensitive to people you don’t know or can’t see and I am just as guilty as being harsh at times through cyberspace.
Good luck to you all.
Waiting for Fatot 591
Vladimir: Did you see him? (points off to the sands where the wind is blowing ripples).
Estragon: “Where?”
Vladimir: There – the same as last night. (squints – I can just make him out).
Estragon: Where?
Vladimir: There ! (Aside – whispers – was this what we had in mind, KA?)
Estragon: Who? (in background a satisfied grunt )
Vladimir: Fatot
Estragon: Who?
Vladimir: The little made-up git that the Persona-Master created. (winks, OK my2bits?)
Estragon: Who is the persona-Master?
Vladimir: He’s the guy that created Fatot, and Vinnie, and all the phantoms of the play.
Estragon: Who is Fatot?
Vladimir: He’s the made-up cringing one that imagines insults and is always threatening to leave the play.
Estragon: Why doesn’t he just leave?
Vladimir: That’s a good question.
Estragon: What’s the answer?
Vladimir: I think the Persona-Master is testing us.
Estragon: Testing us?
Vladimir: Testing us.
Estragon: On what?
Vladimir: On whether we have the guts to deal with his made-up persona.
Estragon: Why?
Vladimir: I think he thinks it’s funny.
Estragon: Is it funny?
Vladimir: I think it is a little, but don’t tell him that. (winks at unseen audience stage left).
Estragon: Oh.
592 Old FOF
Excellent
I agree with what Old FOF has written about anonymity in response to Skeptical Optimist.
I am aware of the disinhibition effect which happens when people don online identities, which liberate them to behave in an aggressive or antisocial way. Many of us have seen online forums polluted with all-out flame wars.
I am intrigued by my2bits’s account of a meeting in which countermeasures to the blog were strategized. If convenient, can you tell us more about it?
Old FOF’s reference to Gaskin/the Farm circumstance is interesting; I am quite sure (although I have been sure and wrong before) that this could never happen in FOF. FOF is not even an oligarchy with power spread among a few; those few who have power have it because a single individual permits them to wield it, and it can be wrested from them instantaneously.
FOF is a totalitarian dictatorship to its very core. I foresee no “velvet revolution.”
Fat boy 551:
“With Robert, we are talking about sexual abuse and abuse of power. I have had sex with Robert at least 50 times but I was not sexually abused; I accepted this and was glad to share this intimate experience with him. I am not gay, and it was odd at first but there was no threats are overt coersion but only a gentle push at times to be with him.”
You had sex with him 50 times and you’re not victim and not gay?
OK, so what does it make you? A whore? An idiot? A retard?
Answer yourself. Why did you do such uncomfortable, unnatural thing “gladly”? Was is really nice and “emotional”?
Which kind of bullshit are you telling to yourself?
It amazes me how people are deluding themselves.
What for?
I feel so immensely sorry for you, really. May your eyes be opened one day.
Dear Purchasing awakening,
Does my answer really matter to you; if I answer will it not just mean more insensitive remarks! I am not a victim, nor a whore. Period. What can I say, believe what you want to believe with the others.
I respect you if my behavior repulses you. But I don’t care!
On the surface I live a very normal life with a family and go through the common struggles that most people go through. I believe in compassion, love and kindeness torward my fellow neibor, freinds and family.
We have different attitudes about our bodies, and sex. And different moralities. Neither one is better or worse in my opinion. The one thing that I have mentioned before on this blog is to go deeper into MORALITY of sex; but this is pushed aside and bloggers say this is not the point. Well in my opinion this is the WHOLE point; and when a real and constructive diologue happens in regards to Morality then it may help to shed more light.
Fat Boy, the morality of sex has nothing to do with it whatsoever.
This has to do with the morality of coercion and power. It has to do with whether the morality of higher man could be indistinguishable from sociopathy.
To borrow a lovely turn of phrase from my friend Bruce, you need to take your head out of your butt. The issue is not whether or not it is possible for someone to not take offense over being abused, as you claim to have done. The issue is how could a higher man seriously damage people and then cast them aside when he is done with them.
That isn’t higher man. That is predator. I mean honestly, a man number 7 asking a man number 4 to externally consider him? Do you really think that is how it works?
Use your head Fat Boy.
Greetings Bares Reposting,
Hey, in your post around 22/#590,
that’s not Mr. Bo (as in BoB).
It’s: Jeremy Hillary Boob, Ph.D.
Ad Hoc, ad loc and quid pro quo,
so little time and so much to know!
Nowhere Man, I mean ‘fat boy,’
wouldn’t like being a ‘boy toy.’
Fat boy 551:
Fat boy,
I do not wish to hit you on the head, but I wonder if you are really totally fine about your sexual encounters with RB.
Morality aside what happened to you is so unfair!
In the fof we learned to become really numbed to the point of not feeling much, not even the anger.
I know by personal experience, it took a while to wake up the anger…it felt unreal at first…is it possible that during sex with RB you were in fact spacing out? floating away from the experience, removing it in fact? or were you having fun? I do not believe so.
These are serious questions dear friend.
Go to a very good therapist and tell him or her your story with RB . You will be amazed.
Fat Boy: 555 Across the River and Laura 556 were the only two responses to my 551 that I felt were sincere. The other handful of responses were mainly sarcastic, defensive, insultive, and very opinionated to what is right.
My response to Fat Boy’s previous response:
I’m not sure how these examples relate to what we’re talking about here. Don’t you think you might be using a little bit too much relativity here? When you speak like this you sound like someone who actually might have been abused and has not recognized it yet.
Fat Boy, in what ways was my response above sarcastic, defensive, insultive or very opinionated?
Thanks graduates 589 & 568
“I think there is a possibility that these two characters are not real. It could be that we are being had. Are there actual people this stupid? I have my doubts.”
Brain-washing does make “one” stoop – id.
I have to question the sources here too (thanks for your analysis old fof 570)…
Robert 597 you “stole my thunder” but I’ll post this anyway:
596 fatboy you wrote:
“The one thing that I have mentioned before on this blog is to go deeper into MORALITY of sex; but this is pushed aside and bloggers say this is not the point.”
Either you just don’t get it, or you DO get it and your intention is to divert and distract away from the real issue. It’s not about sex in relation to “cultural / moral” biases — the issue here is systematic exploitation of “members” and the continuing support of potentially damaging circumstances / consequences for those who are “sucked” into the cult… (double entendres obviously intended).
With that being “said” and “out-of-my- system”
my2bits 579 thank you, this bares reposting:
“Practice a bit of indifference and restraint, folks. You don’t have to swim up to, and nibble on, every f***ing post! Focus on useful goals, and let these imposters fall away like the shills and shadows they are.”
Fat Boy,
The thing is, being straight male you probably wouldn’t have agreed to sex with some senior local gay guy from Dobbins if he asked you for it. Even if he asked you to externally consider him or help him out.
But you went with your “teacher”, a senior gay guy IN POWER.
What made you agree to this, what was your initial reasoning? Didn’t you agree for this unnatural acts precisely because he was your “teacher”?
Now all we hear from you is buffers, which is understood.
You say it’s OK, in fact you’re glad, and don’t mind, and sharing your body is no big deal. These are buffers.
You refuse to see coercion and abuse of power of your “teacher”. You refuse to see that he in fact exploited you (and many others) sexually using his imaginary position “above” you.
You don’t want to see that it was precisely his position of power that pushed you (and others) into doing something so unnatural and repulsive to a straight male.
Look, if there was any other regular guy – you wouldn’t have done this, you would have refused, right?
“On the surface I live a very normal life with a family…”
I wonder if your family, your wife and kids all feel very normal and happy about their daddy’s perverted sexual service to a gay man.
May be if you look beyond the surface, beyond “I don’t care” thing, you may find embarassement and deep emotional pain that your loved ones feel about it.
Thanks Ton for bringing this up. For me this is a POINT. Sexuality is something that connects us on a very deep level…for all who have not buffered this level.
I believe in a spiritual exchange of sexuality and approaching sex as food or drinking takes spirituality and deepening away from sex. Many own verification. Many boys/men with whom I spoke about Robert’s sex live, appeared or very indifferent in this area…almost cold. Like the guys who stated that their son could be led into the “study room” of Robert Burton when 18-19 years old. Or very troubled, very hurt. Many men around here and who left will say that they did not had sex with Robert Burton, like G or S and D. These men are trying to cover up their shame or follow Robert’s “rules” of not informing their spouses and or others. (Understandable but no contributing to a healthy society where you want to raise children). And lying….which is a big thing in the fellowship of friends to not lie…right?
Many people in the fellowship and even in the “inner” circle have a tendency or history of sexual abuse….. You want details? Go and ask them yourself.
Many Women (and Men) are hurt by sexual abuse/ misinforming in this area. Ask the people who worked in the clinics here and around. So much hurt and…..history repeats itself in many, many cases. If you have been hurt or abused, you will pass that on to your children.
As we know Robert Burton has been abused by his female family members and a Russian man. He has not been able to stop “the chain of negativity”. He is still using young, very young looking men. Solars…often physically appearing like children…fill in what you think that is…I do not want to go there…..this karma is in all who have been in the fellowship of friends. Buffer it or not, it is up to you.
Courage to all of you
Thanks Purchasing Awakening. Thanks
Wake up little Suzy,
Your post was sincere and requires further examination.
So I ask you and maybe others, if you can keep the sarcasm aside and rightouesness away this question:
Some of you think that I have been abused but just do not know it or understand it. I have gone deep into my being for the last 20 years and this idea of abuse has never come up once; so the question is how should I try to examine, observe, or get insight into if I was actually abused by Robert?
602 Purchasing awakening
“On the surface I live a very normal life with a family…”
I think this is key: “On the surface”
Let’s face it, in order to continue to survive and thrive (cough cough) in the FOF one has to self-numb, intellectually (cough cough) justify, and fit into one’s cosmology the most absurd, circular reasoning imaginable. One simply does not recognize the magnitude of crime and then decide to stay. To stay, one has to slap down the occasional “little tickle” of their decaying conscience.
535 Old FOF
Thanks for your thoughtful post on blog anonymity. Certainly the anonymity offered to current FoF members has made many of the revelations on the blog possible. And it’s pretty understandable if ex-members, who have stories to tell that they don’t want to be associated with in their current life, post anonymously.
Stories told by people like Bruce, JosephG, Elena, and others who have posted in their own name are much more forceful to me, particularly if I know the authors.
My question tho was why you are anonymous.
I have specific personal and private reasons that I honor in this way and that seem important, at least to me and for now.
… but you don’t say what they are.
I’m not trying to “out” anybody and, to be frank, you can call yourself what you like. I read your posts because they are quite good and enjoyable. My curiosity was piqued because I assumed we probably knew each other.
When I first came to the blog I was inspired by the opportunity it offered to end decades of hiding, to tell what couldn’t be told, to confront the lies and crimes that rested on a foundation of institutionalized secrecy. And I was surprised that more people didn’t want to experience the freedom that comes with standing up and declaring their own truth.
445 Steve Anderson
Joel . . . you were instrumental in my leaving the fof when I did.
I would very much like to hear about this if you want to share it, thanks.
JoelF
…the question is how should I try to examine, observe, or get insight into if I was actually abused by Robert?
Because,
The unexamined life is not worth living. Socrates
Fat Boy,
we tend to pass on to others the hurt and abuse that was done to us. Examining and facing such things within oneself can actually stop “the chain of negativity”. It gets resolved in the light of your own conscience.
Suppressing, buffering and silencing such things with “no big deal” kind of attitude makes them feel “normal” or legit, and then inevitably passed on to others, spouses, kids, etc.
Shit flows downstream you know.
We’ve got quite a Source of it here in OH.
Fat Boy 605: “Some of you think that I have been abused but just do not know it or understand it. I have gone deep into my being for the last 20 years and this idea of abuse has never come up once; so the question is how should I try to examine, observe, or get insight into if I was actually abused by Robert?”
Fat Boy: If you keep asking the questions, you will receive the answers; they are within yourself. And nobody can really walk in your shoes. We can only give you our answers based on our experiences and understanding. If you sincerely ask, the answer will be given or more clearly said, the answer will be revealed to you when you clear away the rubbish that is in the way. This is not meant to be sarcastic and I hope you don’t take it that way.
“If thou would’st hear the Nameless, and wilt dive
Into the Temple-cave of thine own self,
There, brooding by the central altar, thou
May’st haply learn the Nameless hath a voice,
By which thou wilt abide, if thou be wise.”
Tennyson (1809-1892)
This one’s for you Fat Boy. It’s not a new idea.
605 Fat Boy
“I have gone deep into my being for the last 20 years and this idea of abuse has never come up once; ”
You might start by realizing that the above is horse shit. So far, there is nothing particularly “deep” about your observations and rationalizations, either for RB or your role in the play. Either you will not, or cannot actually confront the facts, without submerging them in FOF pablum and utter crap.
You really haven’t shown anything beyond the capability of the machine to buffer an increasingly bizarre situation. And it’s not just you. At this point the people who are staying have had to either hide their real concerns or just become a full citizen of la la land.
I just received some skinny: “…anywhere from 500 to 700 had left over the past year”. Just thought I’d throw it out there.
Dear Fat boy,
I have gone through many insides, body work and therapy’s. It fact of sexual abuse comes up 80 % of the time. The first years I was sure that i was not sexual absed. Years later I realized I was physically and emotionally abused. Last years I did an hour with somebody, the issue cme up again…and it looks really like i have been sexual abused. But I can ot remember.
Interview with a student: I can not believe it after (more then 30 years) I have to admit I was abused by my father. I buffered it al these years….
Another true story and of privacy reasons I will not make any indications.
I was abused by my father at a very early age. My sister who was next door had visits of our father too. Till this day she denies…..
Fat boy..many people who are obese have been sexual abused and use it to become unatractive for their predetors….subconciously.
Hope this helps you and other people to understand your self and others.
“Mankind seems always to favor and feels more comfortable using its linear thinking processes and especially perceptual space/time linear senses (images, symbols, myths, and metaphors) in order to try to relate to and remotely grasp its original Everlasting Source. This is because that is the way by which mankind operates. Hence the distortions and their consequences.”
Another one for you Fat Boy. Taken from Gerald O’Donnel’s Academy of Remote Viewing website
From the American Psychologcial Association website, on the subject of child sexual abuse:
“It is important to remember that physical force is often not necessary to engage a child in sexual activity. Children are trusting and dependent and will often do what is asked of them to gain approval and love.”
Given the obvious parent/child relationship between RB and many fof members, the young men caught up in RB’s power/sex games probably went into them trusting and dependent and often willing to do what was asked of them to gain approval and love.
It’s hard to consider them consenting adults making an informed choice to be okay with what was happening.
615 Waskathleen W.
Right on WKW, this is also why many ex-sexual engagers with Robert do not want to talk about it. They feel guilty, see parts in themselves that have elements of his tendency’s which they take for real. Feel really bad, hurt etc. Some think it is a precious energy and this is a way to be “intimate” with Robert Burton………Brrrrrrrr
There are so many ways of using the mind to try to understand this….
Thanks for your post…now we are talking….
Hugs for all and courage.
612 Bruce
If that is true, it must be making a dent in the fof’s financial situation.
It seems like it would be a good thing if R has publicly instructed members not to go to this blog. If there are people there who are having any doubts (and there must be if they are leaving in those kind of numbers), they might well take a look here, after finding out about its existence. I think it is in the nature of most people to want to find out more about the school’s history than is being formally released, and to be curious about former students. You just have to think that there must be many people there who have not been totally brainwashed.
Fat boy 551:
“I have had sex with Robert at least 50 times but I was not sexually abused; I accepted this and was glad to share this intimate experience with him.”
Purchasing awakening:
“I feel so immensely sorry for you, really. May your eyes be opened one day.”
Yeah come on Fat Boy, you’re supposed to feel bad about it, like your life has been destroyed, full of hate, anger and self-righteous moral outrage!! How can you possibly just ignore what conventional morality says you should feel?! How can over 6 people on this blog be wrong?! You’re supposed to pretend you’re a saint who never persuaded anyone to have sex with you, and ignore the fact that every relationship has a more active and a more passive, a more and a less dominant, more needy and less needy half. Get with it man, dig out your negative self-destructive side, it’s in there somewhere! It will make the others happy if you feel used and abused, so just deny your true feelings and pretend, so they don’t have to attack you and call you stupid. You were just a poor little child, a tiny brainwashed baby with no free will, raped horribly and wickedly while you slept, with blunt objects and feather ticklers. Try to transform your peaceful objectivity into rage, for Blog’s Sake!
617 James Mclemore
My guess is that the majority of the “members” read or are greatly aware of the blog. It supposedly gets over a thousand hits on some days.
Maybe the Sheik can give some statistics at his leisure (if there is any leisure). And thanks again Sheik.
618 Vinnie the Fish
Greasier and greasier.
618: There is really no way to respond to that bout of sarcasm except to note that perhaps Vinnie might want to do a little self reflection.
Yesri baba:
551
That was the saddest post I have read on this entire blog.
Fat Boy, I thought yours was the clearest and most objective post I’ve read on this blog. It seems that objectivity disintegrates when you leave the school, and you only see through the eyes of an angry church-going redneck.
I can only imagine that for these people the work was just a pretence, that understanding of real conscience never emerged… so after dropping the sham the only feelings left about ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ come from feminine dominance and conventional morality.
The main blog tactic used is not reasoning, but name calling: you’re sad, shallow, stupid, immoral, lacking conscience, narcissistic, etc, if you don’t agree with them.
Pretty much like the young thugs (Brown Shirts) in pre-war Germany who went around painting stars on the Jews’ houses.. label the enemy, ostracise and alienate, call them names! This is probably genetic behaviour that has evolved since the neanderthal – Homo Sapien wars.
Intelligent reasoning doesn’t seem possible here.
blog person Vinnie, Amazing text-book display of formatory thinking! That degree of perfect formatoriness is difficult to achieve – takes quite a bit of work. You know who you are behind the curtain of Vinnie. Are you really a buffoon or just playing one?
623 Vinnie the Fish
“Fat Boy, I thought yours was the clearest and most objective post I’ve read on this blog.”
“Pretty much like the young thugs (Brown Shirts) in pre-war Germany who went around painting stars on the Jews’ houses”
You’re a moron.
vinnie 623 “Intelligent reasoning doesn’t seem possible here.”
And your postings are the best example.
Fellowbloggers, apologies for repeating
but this one’s for you fishboy:
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=j1ikxpWIT7s
Skeptical Optimist said:
“My question tho was why you are anonymous.
I have specific personal and private reasons that I honor in this way and that seem important, at least to me and for now.
… but you don’t say what they are.”
_________________________________________________
He said that he had “specific personal and private reasons”. Why would you even ask him to reveal these reasons or to explain why he chooses to post anonymously? Please don’t make people who feel that they need anonymity feel challenged. It is this possibility that has permitted many contributions to the blog and there are many reasons why it is necessary for some of us, at least for now.
#618 and #623:
SICK and probably not worth responding to.
623 – Vinnie
This will be my last post to you.
Let me give you a little history first if you don’t mind. It may help to know a bit of who I am and thus where I am coming from. First of all I am new here on this blog, just finding it less than a week ago. I am now 61 years old and it has been almost 30 years since being in the fof. I was in the school from 1974 to 1979 and knew nothing really of any of Robert’s activities that you have read about here before I left. Perhaps you already knew of some of it before you came here. I will have to say that I did have a sort of ‘gut’ mistrust for the man, but that could just have been accidental, and not due to any particular acuteness to my perceptions. I worked very hard in the school and essentially turned over my whole life over to it. I was sent to help open a new center when the school was first branching out. I had studied Gurdjieff and Ouspensky for a few years before meeting the school. While in the fof I did experience altered and higher states a number of times. There are however many, many ways and places to experience higher and altered states of consciousness. I had experienced them before meeting the fof and they were a large part of what led to my search for higher ideas and a school. I left because of a simple feeling that something was missing in the fof. I could not at the time define it to myself, but it was so persistent of a feeling inside that I could not dismiss it. The money and the way it was spent was certainly a part of it, but there was something deeper that just told me I needed to leave, that something essential was missing, or that something was wrong. I was not even completely sure at the time that I was correct. It was a very scary time for me when I left.
Now. There are only a couple of posters here that I remember from my time in the school and I am not in personal contact with any of them. Most of them spent much more time in the school than myself, and most of them know much more about what they are speaking of than me. There is some guessing going on that you may not even be a real person, but I am writing this as if you are. Some of the responses to your own posts have been a bit caustic to say the least, some have not been that way at all. People here have responded to you in a variety of ways. I cannot speak for any of them, but I can tell you just from the short time I have been here, that if they were sure you were a real person, while their approaches may not change much, what they really are after, I am pretty sure, is for no one else to experience the deception that they have experienced. If you have been reading the posts you may have noticed that several people were hoping you were not real, because they were hoping that is was not a real person that was that deceived. Do you understand what would be behind that sort of statement? It is caring for another human being. I personally did not realize just how badly I was deceived, and how sick that R truly is, and the extent of the lies that were perpetuated, until I came here. It has made me go back and re-live and re-think many things about myself and my time in fof. If you could just stand back a few feet and try to look at your own situation without any preconceived ideas either of your own or the schools or even from the people on this blog, and just try to look at it in the most simple terms possible, I think you might begin to see your situation differently and see a bit differently what the people here are doing, and what they are trying to have you look at.
If you are truly a young person searching for the sacred, I earnestly wish you the best. If you stay in the fof, I feel quite sure you are making a mistake. Almost all the other posters here made that same mistake, including me. I believe that all the people here, no matter how they may seem to you or to me, just sincerely wish that no one else becomes prey to Robert Burton.
Vena 628
You’re probably right,
but I can’t resist.
4 U fat-boy-fish,
you’ll want to close your eyes and crank up the volume for this:
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=GTjo3ZKr_dg
Baby’s on fire
Better throw her in the water
Look at her laughing
Like a heifer to the slaughter
Baby’s on fire
And all the laughing boys are bitching
Waiting for photos
Oh the plot is so bewitching
Rescuers row row
Do your best to change the subject
Blow the wind blow blow
Lend some assistance to the object
Photographers snip snap
Take your time she’s only burning
This kind of experience
Is necessary for her learning
If you’ll be my flotsam
I could be half the man I used to
They said you were hot stuff
And that’s what Baby’s been reduced to…
Juanita and Juan
Very clever with maraccas
Making their fortunes
Selling second-hand tobaccoes
Juan dances at Chico’s
And when the clients are evicted
He empties the ashtrays
And pockets all that he’s collected
But Baby’s on fire!
And all the instruments agree that
Her temperature’s rising
But any idiot would know that.
Power in the FOF
Thank you Old FOF for your clarity.
As Veronicapoe pointed out, the fellowship is a dictatorship and the older students have no power. Men have been replaced by women who having already accepted a second hand role, will continue to accept a third and fourth hand role whenever Robert deems it necessary and hopefully they won’t just be allowed to starve or quickly move to an old people’s home in their old age. I doubt so many of them will have Samantha’s luck if they don’t have their own income. Maybe she does.
The men have been replaced by younger men and older women with the attitude that they really have nothing to stand up for or say for themselves. In chorus they must all stand up for Robert and the Fellowship or be pointed out as loosing the work. This was happening to Girard at some point and he quickly stepped up to the sequence when he was photographed various times by students like Allison and Asaf, each playing out their new role like nouveau rich.
If students like Girard, Collin and others in that sphere have lost any ground of their own and have accepted it, these reveals the degree of self deprecation that they have had to indulge in to simply tolerate the ongoing situation without a chance of questioning it.
Robert’s aim is clearly to push all the old students out and give power to the new generation which, as Laura mentioned in her post are full of testosterone without consciousness, like so many of us were.
One of the problems today is that the Fellowship of Friends is not in its beginning but in its middle age, so to speak and many of the older students supporting it for over twenty years will suddenly find themselves without economic support as it has already happened to Collin. If Collin is willing to take this without protesting, he will set an example for all the others who will not be looked at as part of the “club” “Fellowship” “inner circle” if they don’t also accept it willingly, slowly becoming “exceptions”, isolated to the point of madness.
Robert tries with one, then uses him as an example, then makes it a rule. He chooses someone like Collin who after all is a magnificent human being and will do his best to adapt without realizing that in adapting he will set a rule that others less capable than him cannot survive.
This is in fact how he has used Girard for thirty five years and helped him crystallize in his role without developing himself.
The fact that the young men in power today have no consideration (or power to have it) in regards to the older generation simply shows how they too are being used and how their own ambition for power and personal comfort have over taken their own consciousness. Robert has clearly taught them as Bruce also exposed , that they do not have to answer to anyone but Robert. This definitely feeds anybody’s ego in a community in which Robert is treated as a Godlike being.
In separating students from students, Robert guarantees his own power. Younger students in charge against older students being displaced and women in charge to hold students without power, in position.
The horror is that everyone will suffer in the long run. Younger and old as much as anybody else. The younger ones will ask the older ones why they did not stop it and the older ones will ask the younger ones why, since they had the power at the time, they did not help them. None of them can help each other because the beast is the only one in power.
Consciousness is something else. If anyone of these people were to look within him or herself and return to their innate human structures and trust them, they would know that the level of being of any community is marked by the clarity with which it takes care of its participants.
Everybody is neglected in the Fellowship of Friends except Robert Burton who of course is so very neglected that he can get away with being a dictator.
Dictators appear where the rest of us disappear.
631 Elena
thank you.
FatBoy = Fool On The Hill
The Fool On The Hill – Beatles 02:58
[Note the: ‘use Just For Men!’ at 02:16]
“We are simple people, which keeps School invisible.”
Robert Burton
So many contradictions.
How is it that so many “loving” creationists look out Darwin eyes when it comes to social justice?
Why is it that those who hold God, mankind and the individual in such high regard in theory are the first to abuse and start lopping off heads?
Perhaps a more humble view of it all would transfer value and meaning to the immediate and actual where they have been all along.
Perhaps if one were to move some attention from moral theory to the immediate cock about to slip into one’s actual heterosexual ass it would reveal what is happening.
Another in a series of ‘hints’ that the Fellowship might not be functioning properly as a conscious school:
If there were a conscious school, what would be the aim of the teacher? It always seemed to me that one of his principle aims would be to work with the students to help them to progress towards awakening, whatever that may actually mean.
During the early to middle 70s I first became aware that certain people who had joined the Fellowship were wealthy. Miraculously, these people were suddenly whisked into Robert’s company to the exclusion of the people who seemed obviously the most serious students. This caused one of my eyebrows to go up, but I rationalized that we were also building an ark and a civilization and all that, and fund-raising could be legitimate, blah blah blah.
Then around the same time a couple of new students appeared who seemed to me to be obviously gay. Miraculously they were also whisked into Robert’s company. Up went my other eyebrow. This one was harder to explain – not because I have any issue with gay people, a number of whom are among the finest people I know, but because I couldn’t grasp this in terms of any valid aim of the teacher’s that I could understand.
I went through a whole process of digesting this. Maybe these people were really more likely to awaken than the rest of us, for example. At that time most of us had only been doing school work for a handful of years, so maybe someone could arrive that was ‘ahead’ of us in some sense. But I observed these people and I just couldn’t see it. There was nothing wrong with them – but nothing so extraordinary either.
The more I thought about it, the more I realized that it was not so much that RB was elevating the wrong people into his company so that they could be taught. It was that he wasn’t teaching much of anything to anybody. Oh sure, he can create a state – but I don’t think he can teach anyone how to do it themselves.
So sit quietly and look through your own memories. When I do that, I find that many of those ‘teaching moments’ that I thought I had received were actually nothing so special. More on this later.
605 fat boy
Your post was sincere and requires further examination.
Something that has really got to me over the years is the way good students will choose what is worthy of coming onto their radar. It is a psychologically sick way of eliminating what was you don’t want to deal with. Any shit-head who wants to develop a certain line of rhetoric will say ‘thank you for your sincere question – blah, blah, blah’ It enobles the answer as well as the questioner because we are responding to sincerity. It is in every dip-shit politicians tool box and I am not surprised to see it in yours fat boy.
Have you ever thought by what means you recognise sincerity. Is sincerity the right word even for what we have been conditioned to respond more seriously and respectfully to in the fellowship.
For me the answer is NO. Individual students can be very open and ‘sincere’ but as an institution sincerity is not only not encoraged, it is punished. You need to tow the line to keep a position worth keeping in the Fellowship. There are some examples of students who have had a lot more latitude, but they are exceptions.
Maybe this is changing a bit now, but it is the traditional modus operandi of the school to inhibit anything as unpredictable as sincerity in the interests of the status quo.
Skeptical Optimist 607
We’ve known each other and I have a great deal of respect for you. After all, we shared tea and biscuits in your old tent at The Property.
I get your post and the truth it contains. So, let me try to answer your specific question a little more fully. I don’t feel pressured unduly – and it may serve as a kind of template/example for why being Open might represent less freedom for some posters.
One reason has to do with an ongoing relationship in the Fellowship of Friends for whom some of my comments could serve as an obstacle to their leaving. This situation is a source of pain for me, and I’ll just leave it there.
The other main reason is a little more complicated and has to do with a commitment to privacy that I have made to a very close friend. I’d do almost anything to protect their privacy – even stop posting if it came to it.
So I’ll try to be useful for the time being if I can – and we’ll see where things go.
I appreciate you, Joel.
Thanks.
Hi Friends,
I much appreciate the tone of the present discussion with the exception of Vinnie’s sarcasm.
Fat Boy, your position is worth addressing, I sincerely thank you for posting it. You say you have been having sex with Robert for twenty years, over fifty times and do not feel abused. I believe you. I have seen in the Fellowship quite a few men like you.
It seems it is a common practice of Robert’s to keep hitting back on older students with whom he once had sex probably to reassure himself, them and the rest that everything is in order while at the same time “we can remember the old patterns and have some fun”. The old patterns that had to be put in place twenty years ago when these men accepted being sexually used by Robert in exchange for some favors.
There are those older students who now think this was not good for them and would not allow their children to be used by Robert in a similar way but allow other people’s sons to be used. Those who think there is nothing wrong or ever was and those who think it is not so good but not so bad and still others who leave.
Those who stay agreeing half way or completely are the ones who are legitimizing the practice with the younger boys. The character of the practice has taken different dimensions because it is now not a hidden agenda in which only a few know, it is now a very open agenda in which everybody has to participate whether they like it, want it or not, just by belonging to the Fellowship of Friends.
This practice has taken this particular character precisely because students like Fat Boy and all the others who had to participate in it have made of it a LEGITIMATE practice. That is, one that is moral, would you even say “decent” Fat Boy and Vinnie? The whole community particularly of Isis and the rest of the Fellowship has accepted it as the hallmark of Robert Burton’s consciousness.
They needed to do this to protect themselves from the Is that still kept nagging deep down that maybe it wasn’t such a great idea. There is nothing surprising that students like Fat Boy, who have been accepting this situation in flesh and blood for twenty years, do not at this point feel they are being abused or the slightest guilt.
Guilt is one of the greatest tools of feminine dominance as presented by Robert Burton. In the System, guilt is the emotion that would stimulate a person to change his behavior. The great change or metanoia would imply the presence of will to change the behavior. Robert has turned the tool around to make students feel guilty if they find anything questionable about his practice.
Feminine dominance with its morality, scent of female which he despises unless they can justify it with good money, “what should be” and “how people should behave” is what the Fellowship of Friends has become a master in fighting against and called it “divine practice.”
Robert obviously was not a happy homosexual but himself one with much guilt who tried to hide it for years and then convinced the whole of the Fellowship to support it without guilt or feminine dominance. Many of us did for too long, because it wasn’t homosexuality what we were against but the cheap brothel to support his uncontrolled lust in which the school steadily became. The human transgressions that this little community has had to suffer to bear with Robert’s load are not divine as Robert, Girard and Asaf wish to put it but deeply inhuman.
Women have had to give up their husbands and the practice is now so accepted that some older women find it fine if their sons are equally used. It is not their business, their responsibility, they have nothing to do with it, they find it perfectly normal that they have given up themselves to Robert, they think they are so very conscious for given their will up to Robert’s will.
Men have had to give up not only their will but the administration of their own body and like Fat Boy find it normal to say that they have no problems with this, it doesn’t keep them awake at night. Sex after all is nothing to them but a physical transaction of services in which they in exchange are receiving letimation from the master himself, and a few favors run along with it.
The whole community has been methodically designed to make the use of women against themselves, the use of men as objects of transaction and the practice of living separated from consciousness as a legitimate form.
We have seen how Robert has consistently indoctrinated students to remember themselves, control themselves and have no power to ACT within the Fellowship, controlled the second line to create hierarchies of students acting against each other and how Girard and Asaf have the role of idolizing Robert as a divine being number seven who no one else can question or they will personally take care of them with Linda and the rest of beggars to the throne.
Again, Fat Boy, thank you for your participation and clarity, I thoroughly understand how you have come to feel that there’s nothing ilegitimate about using your body in the way you do. It takes different principles and practices to be able to find other values in one’s life.
Elena – 639
Women have had to give up their husbands and the practice is now so accepted that some older women find it fine if their sons are equally used. It is not their business, their responsibility, they have nothing to do with it, they find it perfectly normal that they have given up themselves to Robert, they think they are so very conscious for given their will up to Robert’s will.
—–
Is this true? Unbelievable
636 RobertC
“Oh sure, he can create a state – but I don’t think he can teach anyone how to do it themselves.”
I’m guessing that he couldn’t create a state any longer for many who are here on the blog. At least not the state(s) we’re speaking about. Probably one reason the older ones are being shifted around is he needs to have loyal sycophants around him to sustain the power aspect of the school (used loosely). Older people are more likely to reach the point of “ok I’ve had enough”. He doesn’t want these people around because it “defeats his will” (gag).
I’m sure his “acts” would evoke some weak memory of the original awe and respect but I’m pretty sure the prominent reaction would be to see a vacuous, criminal hustler. He knows his con is successful because he can devolve the metaphysical structure of the school to an absurd, laughable level and the members are like the frog in the slowly boiling water. They don’t notice a fucking thing.
639 Elena
It’s so true. It’s chilling and horrifying.
641 Bruce
You’re right. A lot of what produced the states came from us. Still, he may well be a ‘black magician’ and thus good at warping people out in some way.
The root of his problem seems to be what he chooses to value. If he had the interests of his students and their spiritual evolution at the core of his value system, this blog wouldn’t need to be here, and we’d all still be in ……..
I would question the idea that Robert produces states. If one really looks at him today he looks like a pretty terrified being trying to play prince charming.
I mean six months ago when I left and probably more now.
Students think Robert produces states because they have become accostumed to making some kind of effort when going to the galleria and trying to buffer the conditions of the Fellowship of friends the rest of the time. It takes huge effort.
The level of impressions is heightened, intrusive, and the pressure is so much that those who think they are experiencing some kind of state are not at all surprising when they’ve accepted to be consistently humiliated in the organisation of how people sit by income and no matter the income, no one participates actively. Students are heroes indeed, but they’ve mistaken the cause. Gurdjieff could produce high states in goats without them being anything else but goats.
Elena @ 644
Gurdjieff could produce high states in goats without them being anything else but goats.
*********
Gurdjieff and company ate the conscious sheep they produced, Burton sucks them dry while the goats sit around smiling politely pretending not to be appalled.
Here’s is a buffer that needs to be addressed: long-time members of the FoF that are just now leaving are likely only doing so because they are no longer getting their self-importance stroked by consciousness Bob (The Prophet of Armageddon). Otherwise, corruption or not (everyone has known what was going on for at least a decade), they’d still be there feeling mighty significant living at the heart of the universe if only Bob chose to make them feel important to him and the cult. Members of the FoF are false, self-involved, vanity driven fools while in the cult and that does not immediately go away when they leave the cult.
James Mclemore
” 623 – Vinnie
If you stay in the fof, I feel quite sure you are making a mistake. Almost all the other posters here made that same mistake, including me.”
Hi James, I appreciate your civility, a quality lacking in most posts. Also your apparent concern and sincerity. I can tell you I am a more real person than most you will meet, not full of standard imitated opinions. I only speak from myself.
You can rest assured that you don’t have to worry about me – if it is a mistake to remain in the FOF, it is MY mistake, and I will learn from it. I choose to stay. If I leave I will move on with my wonderful life ;-)
Constant negativity about the outside world is rather tragic. Don Juan recommended to Carlos Casteneda when he was complaining too much ‘why don’t you go over to that big rock and mash your balls on it with another rock’.
If I leave because of the overbearing ‘pressure’ of the vitriolic posts I like to sometimes read here, it would be against my own conscience, which as I am trying to inform you, is the root of all the suffering and anger here. People have sacrificed their common sense. I haven’t heard much new here (OK except that fisting episode.. but who knows if that’s true?). It was patently obvious from very early on that Robert is a dictator. Did anyone say it has to be a democracy? I never heard of a spiritual sect that was a democracy. Maybe the Knights of the Round table? And I heard many times that he has bizarre sexual appetites and lives like a king, but I must say from my brief chats with him that he shops for bargains, he’s not a complete waster. As the founder he has certain privileges.
You turned over your whole life within 5 years, that’s impressive, but I would not do that for anything unless I had no life and hence nothing to lose, and even then it would be solely MY choice. I hope you didn’t throw away wife n kids. Anyway sounds like you made the right choice to leave, well done. I would not recommend the FOF to anyone – never have, never will, it’s a rough ride, and it’s not for everyone.
So thanks for your concern, but the school has enhanced my life enormously. I find the exercises, meetings, friction, states, people generally useful, and the reminding factor to be present. My clarity and understanding has evolved greatly as you can see, and the minimum payment is no great burden. It is sad many people have been hurt, but to be honest we are all adults and it is voluntary. Should they close Mt Everest because it’s so unfair, people die there so often? It’s a crazy ridiculous struggle for survival, and no-one promised a smooth ride.
James:
“I believe that all the people here, no matter how they may seem to you or to me, just sincerely wish that no one else becomes prey to Robert Burton.”
Regarding your generous ‘belief’ here.. I wouldn’t assign a single motive to a group of people, in reality each post typed has many varied and often hurt and nasty i’s behind it. Just read some of Bruce’s and you will see the feeling is more hatred for current members – there is no concern whatever for them. He would probably gun them down if he could get away with it.
It’s more about ‘winning’ and ‘being right’ I think. And I don’t deny that I am also not wholly devoid of that motive…
Of course Bruce (and others) would pretend that it is ‘possible future students’ they care about, in order to appear righteous and noble. Noble indeed, caring so strongly about imaginary people, while hating the real ones. But that is the way of the mind, samsara, living in a world of illusion.
Anyway good luck to you James, I hope you don’t lose your spiritual aspirations. Hafiz was said to be 60 or so when he broke on through to the Other Side.
647
“Just read some of Bruce’s and you will see the feeling is more hatred for current members – there is no concern whatever for them. He would probably gun them down if he could get away with it.”
You’re an idiot, a liar and obviously not the brightest bulb.
“Of course Bruce (and others) would pretend that it is ‘possible future students’ they care about, in order to appear righteous and noble.”
Find one post from me that directly states that “future students” is my concern. There are many who DO feel that, but your are attributing that to me, and you will not find anything corroborating that from me.
Congratulations you have entered the realm of the pitiable and pathetic.
But prove me wrong. Find my posts that support your supposition.
647
I will jump on specific assholes who deserve it, but there are quite a few people who are “in” that I love and care about.
But you sir, are hopeless.
647
It’s incredibly grandiose of you to equate how I feel about you, and a few others with how I feel about the “membership”. You just don’t fucking get it. And I don’t expect you will.
Bruce, this guy is loving it that you take him seriously. He’s playing your sincere emotions like a harp.
651 Graduates
You’re right, thanks.
Yes, let’s ignore Vinnie the Fish. He is either fake or the sort of person I would not like to be involved with.
Having a critical mind can be quite a gentle process.
Robert Burton
Hi Fat Boy,
I have not been able to keep up with the blog this last week or so, and missed your #551 when you posted it.
Your sexual relationship with Robert is in my view not open to criticism. To a much greater degree 20 years ago than now, Robert Burton has mostly been considered an attractive man, even by his detractors, and especially by his own students. Some but not all of his male students had sex with him. Some but not all of these actually came to accept and enjoy this sex, at least to a degree. I do not doubt the truth of your feelings about your own sexual experiences with Robert. 50 times sounds like a lot, but only averages out to 2.5 times per year for an older student like you. Not that much really. The first year or two probably accounted for the majority of the episodes. And only the very first time or two was likely to have been coerced. Afterwards, if you WERE coerced in the beginning, you would probably have become very eager to define the relationship as consensual, and your attitudes and buffers would have colored any lingering memory of awkward moments during that first time, i.e. when you were surprised (or not) and had to go against your inherent sexual orientation. Also, this sexual orientation of yours may in fact have been bi-sexual all along, which does not mean you are out trying to score with any other guys besides RB, but only that you are capable of enjoying the experience with either a man or a woman, if not equally at least sufficiently to do it again when the opportunity presents itself.
Nothing about your having sex with Robert Burton your spiritual teacher was in my view wrong, immoral or stupid, and much about it may well have been both physically and emotionally satisfying to you.
You seem to be someone with a lot of relativity. You can see things from lots of perspectives, and only strongly disagree with someone else when they are too intolerant to respect the sincere opinions of others. So you admit that Robert may not be conscious. You accept that some may have good reasons to feel that Robert abused them, and you even concede that one day you yourself may agree with these self-proclaimed victims that what Robert does is in fact abusive; but you cannot agree that this gives anyone the right to be intolerant of those like you who still find value in the Fellowship of Friends and/or still hold affection for Robert Burton, albeit with all his human frailties. So you take exception for now, mildly anyway, to labeling Robert’s actions as “abuse,” and think this is at least subjective and exaggerated, if not malicious. You also concede there is much you do not know or understand fully; but what you know with certainty is that the Fellowship of Friends and your relationship to Robert is a good thing for you, and for many others that remain loyal students. Again, IMO this shows a remarkable amount of relativity to be able to permit in yourself these disparate perspectives without an internal combustion being ignited by so many blatant contradictions knocking against one another. Is this a sign of maturity, or is there such a thing as too much relativity?
Maybe with you Robert was just a powerfully attractive man. You fell for him. He seduced you…and why not? You were there in the room, serving his dinner or ushering his meeting and the chemistry kicked in. Suddenly, overwhelmingly, even though minutes before you could only think about scoring some pussy, you realized that his was the mouth you really craved. And you were not alone! So many young men had no preparation for Robert’s homosexual magnetism. His PRESENCE. His BEING IN THE MOMENT is such a turn-on that just a gentle nudge was all it took, is all it takes. You were not coerced or conned; you were consciously loved, possibly for the first (and only) time.
If you think I am making fun of you now, I’m not. The magnetism is real; it’s the magnet that seems a little suspect. Or the magnetic center as the case may be.
Here’s the bigger question for me, Fat Boy: if he’s conscious and you verified he’s conscious and you gave up your “homosexual virginity” to him, knowingly, consensually, because that meant you were going to receive his higher energies and profit from them…well, okay. But if he’s not conscious and never was, even though he really really REALLY cares a lot about BEING PRESENT, and even though he himself may believe he is conscious (the goddess thing) and has been sent all these boys by his angelic posse, and if even ONE boy who he talked into having sex with him was not sure at all about whether he was really conscious, but went along with it mostly because he was scared and had taken such a huge risk to move to the officially recognized middle of nowhere, beautiful downtown Oregon House CA, so that boy reluctantly lets his cock get sucked — even though YOU were of course much smarter and were never abused or let the power thing bother you — if this one boy was intimidated by Robert’s powers and his implied keys to heaven and hell, with a straight face can you really defend this as anything other than coercion and abuse of power?
And back to the first “if”: if Robert IS conscious, and that scared young man-child wandered into his boudoir without an iota of desire to have sex with him, and being conscious Robert could SEE all this with his higher centers all PRESENT and alert, why would he knowingly convince his student to do something he did not want to do, something that might cause long-term emotional damage? What kind of conscious being would intentionally, knowingly (and he DID know, if only by the visible negative after-effects in Thomas E and so many others), harm the essence of even ONE of his beloved students?
Many have pointed to apt comparisons: a priest / school teacher / boss / parent / therapist…can never have truly consensual sex with their altar boy / student / employee / son or daughter / patient who is subordinate to them and/or dependent upon them.
How many incest victims might easily repeat your own words: “I have had sex with (my father) at least 50 times but I was not sexually abused; I accepted this and was glad to share this intimate experience with him. I am not gay, and it was odd at first but there was no threats are overt coercion but only a gentle push at times to be with him. I have no resentments or anger in regards to this.”
I am not saying it is necessary for you to condemn Robert’s intentions or your own actions, though many here have said exactly this. Nor in my opinion do you ever have to label your own sexual relationship with Robert as ugly or wrong or shameful. It was part of your play so you were meant to experience it and learn from it. But if you have truly “made the school your own” how can you condone Robert’s actions with even that one boy more innocent and vulnerable than you? In my view this is simply Tramp. Too much (mechanical) relativity equates to the absence of conviction: a lack of valuation for one’s self and others.
The Fellowship of Friends is YOUR school. Everything that happens in it reflects on you and affects your karma. Whether you admit it or not, you will never be able to fully disown your personal accountability for any harm that is done in your school…at least to the extent you know what’s going on.
And Fat Boy, I have a funny feeling you know everything.
Joseph G
Daily Card:
Monday, October 15, 2007
I never become accustomed to the way the instinctive center gives importance to trifling matters; it promotes identification by making small things seem big.
Love, Robert
“Yes let’s.”
~ Orage
So you’ve never ‘coerced’ someone into having sex that first time Joseph? One or the other party is always more ‘coercive’ than the other, to get through that initial barrier. Usually the male in my experience. :-) That’s normal. I bet your grandfather cajoled and courted your grandmother for months to get there, and finally married her! Sex is normal, no big deal, get over it.
The other glaring thing is that the hurt victims are not personal experience, so you can’t know the complete picture. It’s easy to condemn someone on hearsay. I bet Jesus left a trail of bleeding hearts behind him, someone recorded that he was the handsomest man on Earth. But Robert? With those teeth?! bejeezus
Graduates:
“Bruce, this guy is loving it that you take him seriously. He’s playing your sincere emotions like a harp”
Sincere emotions:
‘You’re an asshole.
stupid.
moron.
greasy.
shallow.
pitiable and pathetic
idiot, a liar and obviously not the brightest bulb
Is that sincere King, Queen or Jack of Hearts?
Bruce – I have some vague memory of you aspiring to something noble like saving current or future students, but maybe that was Elena. Accept my terse apology.
If your only motive is revenge, that’s cool, at least you’re not pretending!
If only you could write in a less offensive way. You know it’s just a fake macho mask to conceal your true leanings (only kidding). It is fake though isn’t it? You don’t talk to real people like that, or you would not be still walking the Earth. So try to be your humble self, like I do – it’s great to be free of that bravado and pretence. That’s what I learned in the school – think for yourself, don’t pretend for any cunt out there. Then you can be yourself and love yourself and others.. it is true freedom. “A good and true altruist must first be an out and out egoist.” – The G.
This one’s a parting shot for you,
Vinnie the Fish, as a goodbuy* note:
Sexual Intercourse:
American Style (ep. 2) 04:07
* goodbuy note = everyone has their price.
It matters very little how many miners there are in the group, what matters is whether or not the effort strikes gold. A crowd of diggers imitating the activity at a famous goldmine is not actually a goldmine if all that happens is the breaking of rock. Men are naturally proud of their collective efforts, but if they waste their time, exhaust themselves and end up dusty and destitute then something was certainly missing in the enterprise. Not all those that come to dig end up wealthy.
If a particular esoteric teaching appears conspiratorial and manipulative to the passing glance of outsiders then it is in fact conspiratorial and manipulative. Outsiders are not so unperceptive or uncomprehending as the esoterically initiated believe. A way of development that cannot be practiced out in the open without attracting suspicion is certainly corrupt. There is no need to hide the practice of genuine development because it is obviously beneficial to the general interests of decency.
Joseph, thanks for your consistent awesomeness.
Fat Boy, thank you for trying to understand.
I just wanted to relate a small personal episode. When I was a “young student” in Rome, Robert used to visit quite often and “the boys” travelling with him would come to events and spend some time around the local students. They were all pretty, but one in particular caught my attention, and I soon realized that the attraction was reciprocal.
So we arranged to go out to dinner one evening, and later went for a long walk. It was your typical romantic roman night, full of arcane beauty, magic in the air, lovely conversation, wandering aimlessly around the quiet streets with my feet barely touching the ground.
What I didn’t realize at the time was that the boy in question was also Robert’s main sexual interest at the time. I had learned that he was the only one to stay in the hotel with The Teacher, and that seemed slightly weird, but as mentioned before I was so stupid and naive that when at midnight he had to grab a cab and run away like Cinderella my alarm bell did not go off at all. Almost.
I was left with a nagging feeling that something was slightly off kilter. I noticed the fact that he did not enjoy speaking about Robert and that he seemed rather sad, although he was acting in a very “noble”, restrained manner. No one said a word about the real underlying circumstances, not him nor the center directors who were aware of our little attraction.
My point is quite simple: can’t you see, even in such a small episode, the issues of denial, shame, coercion, withdrawal of information, shallowness and plain wrongdoing involved?
Instead of spending the rest of the night with someone he was actually attracted to, this boy had to run to his master and service his sexual needs, all in the name of his “evolution”. And how could he share this info with me, who was still so starry-eyed about it all? And what could the center directors do, steeped as they were in their fear of students “loosing the school”?
You have mentioned before (if I am not mistaken) how being around Robert Burton seems to actually help some of these men to become better persons. Would you care to express more clearly what you mean by it? Would you care to know that this boy left the Fellowship many years ago, just like so many other friends who found themselves sucked into a magnetic storm that was way too powerful and destructive for their being?
#655 Joseph G
Thanks Joseph, right on and very well put.
Love,
Bass
This one’s for you, Graduates.
The Graduate Trailer 03:15
This one’s to remind us of the
brave new world we live in:
Enemy Of The State Scenes
(Music Added) 09:34
Vinnie & all others on the blog
Vinnie – you are obviously greatly inflated with some substance that I assure you is not real.
All others – my post was sincere and it was a sincere waste of time – sorry to have taken up so much space with my post and then Vinnie’s reply
KARMA
Joseph wrote:
The Fellowship of Friends is YOUR school. Everything that happens in it reflects on you and affects your karma. Whether you admit it or not, you will never be able to fully disown your personal accountability for any harm that is done in your school…at least to the extent you know what’s going on.
Several students are batteling with the aspect of karma…
Can you elleborate on this how you see your karma after leaving and if there is anything you can change about it?
Will this be the karma of our children?
Why did we had to get this ….just bad luck?
What can w really do….or is this what is and have to learn to live with this.
Hey James,
no need to be sorry, failed attempts at sincere communication have been going on for months now…
and we just keep going, as long as we have to.
time will tell if it was a waste of time indeed :.)
Re: post 511
Yesri Baba
I knew someone on here would get that little aside and it doesn’t suprise me that it was you! It seems especially pertinent on this blog as Idle’s explanation was so Gurdjieffian in nature: “Man is not born with a soul, but must develop one through his experiences…” Then the angelic music starts to play, all the faces go fof-ey mysto, the golden light appears; great stuff.
Ahh, yes. Wafer thin.
Re: post 623
Vinnie the Fish wrote:
“Yesri baba:
551
That was the saddest post I have read on this entire blog.
Fat Boy, I thought yours was the clearest and most objective post I’ve read on this blog. It seems that objectivity disintegrates when you leave the school, and you only see through the eyes of an angry church-going redneck.”
I have a sincere question for Vinnie in particular and all of us in general: How do we know objectivity when we see it/read it/hear it? If there is such a thing as objective, esoteric, psychological knowledge, what are its attributes? How does an individual think objectively? If you are being objective can you actually write the sentence that starts Vinnie’s post?
Jus askin’
Re: post 671
Should have ended: Just askin’.
I see many bloggers having humanitarianism as their aim for being here. I think that’s a noble aim no matter what the outcome.
Vinnie #658
If you knew me and knew what roles I have played in the Fellowship of Friends you would realize how clueless you sound.
655 Joseph.
Great post – sums up the whole sex thing, which is not easy to do – thanks!
668 Another Name: “Several students are battling with the aspect of karma…Can you elleborate on this how you see your karma after leaving and if there is anything you can change about it?”
There’s a sense of taking emotional responsibility for what was going on in the FoF even if we didn’t know all the gory details as we do now. For me, this is a simple internal acceptance. The outward result is mostly talking about it honestly to others, including writing here on the blog.
“Will this be the karma of our children?” Only if we hang onto it, feel guilty or angry about it, and so pass it on to them.
My advice – face what was going on squarely and honestly, take it on board internally, don’t dwell on it too much, move along to the next phase of our lives, leave the FoF baggage behind.
644 Elena
I would question the idea that Robert produces states. If one really looks at him today he looks like a pretty terrified being trying to play prince charming.
———————-
I saw a recent photo of Robert a couple of weeks ago. He was looking almost directly into the camera.
What I saw looking out of his eyes was unnerving. I don’t know what it was, but what it wasn’t was anything like conscious awareness, compassion, love or caring.
If I were to encounter that on the street, I would go the other way as quickly as possible.
Vinnie #658
You wrote: “One or the other party is always more ‘coercive’ than the other, to get through that initial barrier.”
Good to share that little caveman daily card with your own sexual partners. I would agree that one party has to play the role of active force, and in a mature relationship it’s nice to take turns once in a while.
The word “coercive” has a specific meaning related to the use of physical or psychological pressure. A priest does not have to use physical force to coerce sex with an altar boy, but the power of his role (and of course the age of the victim) creates a predatory dynamic. My personal experience with Robert in hindsight was that of the hunted with a predator. For the record, I did get over it; but I also spent years buffering it (in my case, calling it love), similar to Fat Boy.
BTW, you’ve got some scary ethics.
Joseph: “For the record, I did get over it; but I also spent years buffering it (in my case, calling it love)”
Whenever I heard some weird rumours about Burton and they started to trouble me, I would have lunch with a close friend (close until I left the FoF, that is, at which time he refused to see me) who had been one of Burton’s boys, tell him about what I’d heard and he would tell me “no, it’s all consensual, it’s beautiful, there’s so much love”. That would help me buffer for another six months. Arghh!
Vinnie, you turkey, this is for you.
Fat Boy, here is a sincere question for you…. How does your wife feel about your infidelities? and your children, do they know, and if so, how do they feel? To ask how old your children are and more about your wife would be too personal, so I’m just asking in general. Would your wife or kids (assuming they are grown) post here and tell their stories? Plus, I’m assuming that you care how they feel. ?
It IS hard to say about someone else’s love and sex life. People differ. As Vinnie says, individual conscience CAN go against conventional morality. That friction can actually reveal conscience. But what IS conventional morality? Is there a conventional morality of the fof?
Recently my teenage son wrote an essay about his experience with taking drugs.
He said ‘The first time I took marijuana it became my point of reference for the next 4 years. And what I found is that the more drugs I took the more questions I had, which was just the opposite of what I expected in that I was looking for answers’.
Addictions come in all forms, including what one might call the ‘spiritual addiction’. I believe people are addicted to being in the Fellowship and unable to pull themselves out of that addiction.
And perhaps a good question for current members to ask themselves is are my questions being answered or do there seem to be more and more questions?
Just when I thought I had a unique idea, I googled it and found this: Just goes to show that most of what many of us are saying here on the blog comes from clear channels from something higher than ourselves. Here is what I just found:
A SPIRITUAL PERSON CAN BECOME ADDICTED to spiritual highs and miss the experience of Truth. Spiritual addiction occurs when something great happens and it feels as if you have received a hit of a great drug. As soon as you have it, you want more. There is no drug more potent than spiritual experience. The intellectual component of this addiction is the belief that if you just had enough of these experiences you would feel great all the time. It’s like morphine. You get a hit of it in the hospital because you break your arm, and you think, “If I had a little drip going all the time, life would be relatively pleasant no matter what happens.” Spiritual experiences often become like this, and the mind puts them into its familiar pattern, thinking, “If I had this experience all the time, that would be freedom.”
Soon you find that your condition is not much better than that of a common drunk, except that drunks know they have a problem because it’s not culturally acceptable to be a drunk. The spiritual person is very certain that there is no problem, that his or her inebriation is unlike the other forms of inebriation, and the whole point is to be spiritually inebriated forever. That’s the mindset of an addict: “I got it and I lost it. I need it. I don’t have it.”
Adyashanti
Pavarotti and James Brown, good God yawl.
http://www.sonnyradio.com/jamesbrownpavarotti.html
Repost:
Here’s is the advantage that Burton has over others: he is crystallized and what that means is his entire psychology is focused on the aim of glorifying and satisfying himself. If he were someone roaming through life victimizing people at random then he would be an ordinary criminal, what makes him a spiritual criminal is that he has established himself as a “teacher” of the Fourth Way, a position of trust. He allegedly uses that position of trust to satisfy his own desires without consideration for the easily foreseeable negative consequences on those he victimizes. Ordinary men, men not crystallized, men with many little wills, have little resistance to someone with a unified will. At the same time, a man with a unified, crystallized will is not necessarily conscious; such a thing need not possess an active conscience. Burton has a psychological strength that gives him power over ordinary non-unified people and he uses it and his position as a person of trust, as a “teacher,” to take what no conscious man would ever take. To Burton esoteric knowledge is simply a means to manipulate people in order to satisfy his engorged ego. Those still in the Fellowship are people who continue to be drawn toward the heavy gravity of a dense and malevolent creature, such an atmosphere lacks the light of conscience. It is devoid of the glimmer of decency.
Re: post 573
Laura,
Thanks for being so brave, bold and open. It’s quite an eye-opener to go back and read what we wrote, essentially, to ourselves. This, of course, reminds me of a story (how did I become the Abe Simpson of this blog?):
In the summer of 1986, having been in the fof for two years, I took a new job which required me to spend six months in a small southern city reviewing documents for an asbestos litigation. It was my first time “away from home”, so to speak. Since joining in the summer of ’84, I had attended meetings and center activities without fail. I crammed my life full to the brim with my new found friends and philosophy. Now I was to be jettisoned (by C influence?) into a remote wilderness with no friends, no meetings, no dinners. Just me (and my shadow). I was excited and apprehensive.
Once there, I started keeping a daily journal of work related thoughts. Day after day, scribbling away; trying to reassemble the system in my head and on the page, trying to see what it meant in my life, trying to capture how I felt about every small detail. And then, it was over. I came home. Life resumed. I looked at the journal a couple of times for meeting fodder and pitched it in a drawer.
Ten years later, I’m cleaning out my old dresser and I find this journal. I didn’t even remember what it was at first; pulled it out of the drawer and set it aside. Later in the day I opened it and discovered what I had written ten years before. It split me right down the middle. I cried while reading it. I vividly remember saying to myself: “Who is this person? I’d really like to meet him. He certainly knows more about the work than I do.” Then I realized, I was not reading about the work, I was reading about an idealistic young man, full of energy and hope, utterly naive, but totally on fire with a thirst for the truth.
I’ll have to dig that journal up again and see how it reads today. And if I can summon up enough courage, maybe I’ll post a few lines here. Just for fun.
671 Kid Shelleen
I have a sincere question for Vinnie in particular and all of us in general: How do we know objectivity when we see it/read it/hear it? If there is such a thing as objective, esoteric, psychological knowledge, what are its attributes?
—————————–
Good question Kiddo.
Objective thinking matches reality.
It’s easy to recognise the opposite – subjective thinking – often expressed with generalizations, judgements, sweeping statements, absolutes, the emotional centre doing the ‘thinking’. Objective reasoning is simply undeniable and intuitively obvious. You would experience it when you suddenly clearly understand another’s point of view, it’s not understanding from inside your own head, it’s getting into another’s.
For example in this blog, someone said that acceding to sex with Robert was slightly uncomfortable the first time, but actually quite OK and intimate after that. Others constantly shriek that it is abuse, coercion, heinously criminal and deliberately destructive. But if you think objectively, picture actual events, Robert probably just craved sex, not that he would rub his evil talons with glee when he saw an innocent victim coming and say to himself ‘hehe I’m gonna fuck this sucker up emotionally for life!’.
Subjective thinking paints events with it’s own wild colours.
So it’s good to look from other angles.
Imagine if you will that Robert was an attractive female (maybe like the rather gorgeous Siddha Yoga leader), and enjoyed giving blowjobs to consenting adult male students. The only complaints would be from jealous girlfriends. The males would treasure the sweet memory. Nobody would be emotionally damaged and ‘abused’. But Robert is an old homosexual male, which paints things in an entirely different hue! Maybe a little ageist grey and a dash of sexist pink.
Not everyone would be like Marcus Aurelius when they are given a position as a dictator.. most would be more like Nero I suspect.
“Others constantly shriek that it is abuse, coercion, heinously criminal and deliberately destructive….Subjective thinking paints events with it’s own wild colours.”
Vinnie , No one here is ‘constantly shrieking’. ;-)) Maybe your own subjective mind provides the shrieks and other wild colors?
No, your example is flawed. Without going into detail, imagine the leader is an old dyke who enjoyed ‘fisting’ and other activities with young straight women – Your wife for example. Bye bye Vinnie, you stay home tonight and take care of the kids OK? Don’t worry about STD’s the old lady is a higher being and it is my duty to get things stuck up me and externally consider this god.
677 Joseph G
Vinnie #658
BTW, you’ve got some scary ethics.
——————
I don’t have any ethics, just conscience. I do have an aim not to hurt anyone though.
——————
“The word “coercive” has a specific meaning”
—– OK use manipulative – one partner is always more manipulative than the other early on.
—————–
“My personal experience with Robert in hindsight was that of the hunted with a predator.”
—- Accords with my observations exactly.
Vinnie
If you are lucky Vinnie, someday something or someone is going to pierce your shell. When that happens, I am guessing you are going to be quite a mess.
Who’s on this ladder?
Interpol Identifies Suspected Pedophile
Oct 15, 5:01 PM (ET)
By JAMEY KEATEN
PARIS (AP) – First Interpol unmasked his face. Now it knows his name. The international police organization, working off tips from people who responded to a global appeal for help, said Monday it has identified a suspected pedophile shown in Internet photos abusing young boys.
The man, whose face initially was disguised behind a digitalized swirl, is now thought to be on the run in Thailand, Interpol said. He is said to be an English teacher at a school in South Korea.
The man was allegedly shown sexually abusing 12 young Vietnamese and Cambodian boys, apparently ranging in age from 6 to early teens, in about 200 photographs posted on the Internet. Using techniques that neither they nor Interpol would discuss, German police recreated an image of the man’s face and released four reconstructed photos of him last week.
Interpol said more than 350 people then supplied tips to authorities worldwide. Officials are still collecting and analyzing evidence to bring charges against the man if he is arrested, it said.
Interpol went public after efforts to track down the man through its network ran dry. Ronald K. Noble, Interpol’s secretary-general, credited “remarkable progress” following the public response to its appeal for help on Oct. 8.
Interpol said it now knows the suspect’s name, nationality, date of birth and passport number, but it did not release that information. It said the man flew from Seoul, South Korea, to Bangkok, Thailand, last Thursday, with security cameras documenting his arrival at Thai immigration.
“Thailand is at the center of an international manhunt, and authorities in the country, in cooperation with Interpol and police around the world, are hunting him down,” Noble said.
In Bangkok late Monday, the deputy chief of Thailand’s Interpol liaison office, police Col. Pornprasert Kanchanarin, said he was unaware of the new developments in the case. Interpol declined any further comment Monday beyond its statement.
Interpol provided two new photos of the suspect Monday. One, taken by Thai immigration officials upon his arrival in Bangkok, showed him seemingly older, with close-cropped hair and wearing glasses. The other, which Interpol said was provided by an informant, was a simple head shot of the man, smiling and ruddy-faced.
Interpol’s decision to release the reconstructed photos was seen as being somewhat risky because it could have tipped off criminals to techniques police have at their disposal and prompted them to better hide their identities.
One of the pictures released last week and posted on Interpol’s Web site showed the suspect with uncombed short brown hair. Another showed him with a hairy chest.
The photos date from before December 2004, when they were found on the Internet, Anders Persson, a Swedish police officer assigned to Interpol’s human trafficking unit, said last week. Some were digitally stamped as having been taken in 2002 and 2003, he said.
Interpol asked people who recognized the suspect or who have other information to contact police or the Interpol bureau in their country. It urged them not to take any direct action.
Now, with the suspect at large, “we must again enlist the public’s support,” Noble said.
The boys believed to have been abused have not been located, Persson said.
689 James Mclemore
Vinnie
If you are lucky Vinnie, someday something or someone is going to pierce your shell. When that happens, I am guessing you are going to be quite a mess.
————————-
What shell do you imagine James? There really is none. Do you think you see any pretence, inconsistency, false shell, mask, inaccurate thinking? Just point it out if you do, spare the dire hyperbole!
That is the beauty of the work, to lose the falseness to become simple and maskless.
Perpetual revolution, always question authority:
Hello Dear All,
Back from a trip and catching up with “here”: very intense!
For the non Italian speakers, the line Pavarotti sings and, repeat singing, in the great video Bruce just offered (683) is:
“Nulla ha più senso se si vive solo per sè.”
Nothing has neaning anymore if one lives only for himself.
Gratitude
681, 682
Dear wake up little suzy wake up,
Of course another thing about addiction is that it retards the normal emotional development of a person. Once free of the addiction, there waits the work of becoming a healthy human being. The difficulty current members have to hear the truth is pretty easy to see right here on the blog. When I recently asked a member I’ve known for years about her current relationship to the FOF in light of the “times”, she calmly stated it was business as usual for her. Her vibe wasn’t calm, though – very defensive, protective, negative.
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684 and others
Dear Graduates,
I’ve been especially appreciating your well-stated posts lately. I hope you and many of us posting here are not just singing to the choir.
====================================================
Dear Joseph G, James, KA and others,
Vinnie thinks he’s a rock star. He’s unable to emotionally differentiate between the hedonistic and predatory pursuits of that ego-driven reality and the essence-vulnerable realm of those who pursue the subtle knowledge of the soul and mystery of life. He’s a bull in a china shop, and about as intelligent, wit aside, and he can wreak havoc. Maybe through the transparency of Vinnie, some better souls still remaining in the FOF can finally take a measure by association of where they have drifted by slumbering so long there. Vinnie is pathetic in his ignorance, but dangerous, too, IMO. He might even be flattered by that statement, to make my point.
Re: recent posts of the Defenders
If you lean back just a bit and think, it’s apparent that likely without meaning to the recent posts by the Fellowship of Friends Defenders (the newly pepped-up “Vinnie” and “fat boy”) are effectively making the case AGAINST the Fellowship.
Have to laugh a little – I think the Persona-Master has been wrong-footed and is off his game. Or maybe it is just hard to defend the indefensible.
This is a win-win debate to have.
In any case, the admissions and concessions are breath-taking. They are so astoundingly mind-bogglingly jaded.
In their trying to define a new normal they are making the case that behavior that is below the level of life is OK. Why would seekers who aspire to the highest accept this pathology as inspiration for their goals?
Do they really think this school for sociopathy, sodomy and human bondage that they are presenting is attractive? I would expect that most of the rank-and-file membership is horrified by these admissions.
Further, it seems to me that one outcome of all this finally bubbling up – and being admitted to by Fellowship members – is that there should now be a requirement (as enforced by the threat of or real civil lawsuits) that not only should every existing member of the Fellowship of Friends be informed in writing as to Robert Burton’s behaviors, but every prospective member should be informed in writing of such behaviors prior to joining.
Keep making your sad case, guys. You’re in so far, that you seem to have no idea how damaging it is.
691 Vinnie the Fish
“What shell do you imagine James? There really is none. Do you think you see any pretense, inconsistency, false shell, mask, inaccurate thinking? Just point it out if you do”
The “pretense, inconsistency, false shell, mask, inaccurate thinking” have been pointed out to you since your first posts. Not only have they not penetrated your shell, but they haven’t even penetrated the coating of smarmy grease around your shell.
Kid Shelleen, 671
“How do we know objectivity when we see it/read it/hear it? If there is such a thing as objective, esoteric, psychological knowledge, what are its attributes? How does an individual think objectively? If you are being objective can you actually write the sentence that starts Vinnie’s post?”
I do not expect to say the magic words that will answer such a question but this is how I’m working with your curiosity today.
A human being is like a tree but both the roots and the branches are in our actions. Objectivity is not a fixed thing but a state of connectedness with the inner and outer worlds of which we are but a trunk, a bridge where other worlds are always crossing ever more purely as we acknowledge them.
As I interpret objectivity today, we can each pull ourselves up or down, in or out, depending on what we choose. Each one of us has the right to choose. No one can force one. The stronger the individual becomes the clearer it is that one can choose one’s heaven as much as one’s hell without there being the possibility of any intervention from others. One can choose to be independent and isolated or dependent and involved.
In my case for many years I was under the influence of the current programming of our time which pretends that people should be totally independent of others, make their own money, their own effort, their own pleasure and even respond for their own suffering without sharing. This is the sort of thinking most prevalent in the Fellowship of Friends also much influenced by the American Way of Life. An expression of this in the life of America is in Mr. Ford’s act of pulling the rails out of the streets and throwing the public transportation into the sea so that everyone would buy his own car and be independent of others, helping with this to considerably increase global warming, against everybody else as much as themselves. Good to observe the effects of our actions in different realms.
The Fellowship of Friends philosophy and practice is thoroughly tainted by this individualism. Students are expected to do everything for themselves and when they incur in any suffering they are expected to solve it on their own. This is also an American characteristic that has much developed everywhere in the world with all the different expressions that it takes in sports with the “great figures” worth millions because of their individual effort, push, drive, as much as in the millionaire who made all that money for himself in a society that allows for such excesses and praises them as great achievements that the rest look at with envy and wonder or the spiritual guru for whom everybody in the cult is willing to give himself up.
This mentality is as “objective” as any other in as much as it creates factual results. Mankind moves along its lines, up, down and sideways.
This individualism is also the main characteristic of the Fellowship of Friends. As long as you work with the understanding that you and only you are responsible for your self, you are an ideal member.
What is amazing about this indoctrination in the Fellowship, is that it doesn’t even compare to the capitalist form in which you are getting something for what you pay. It has managed to turn all the patterns upside down and backwards and convince people that you only get what you can make for yourself. So the teacher is not expected to have integrity for the people or the money and the students are not expected to ask or question and the school is not expected to care for what is human but divine and each student is expected to be everything on to himself at the service of the teacher.
The old law that the higher serves the lower disappeared in the Fellowship of friends and the lower, the students, have to serve the higher, the teacher. They have to serve the lower to the teacher: Young boys, money, even breakfast, lunch and dinner and that is considered legitimate consciousness.
Life is already upside down and backwards to the spiritual world but the Fellowship beats it being upside down and backwards to life, like a bonsai, equally misconstrued and deformed and with a pretense of beauty without the magnitude of Reality. People accepted to diminish themselves and their lives for Robert’s life and involuted into spiritual midgets. The only air that is breathed in the Fellowship of Friends is the air of the brothel no matter how many other efforts people make. Student’s lives have to be left outside if they want to belong inside. They are only allowed to cross the gates with their dressed up bodies and no soul. We carry our soul in our speech and people are not allowed to speak in the Fellowship of Friends.
This is an objective reality of the Fellowship of Friends, made out of the subjectivity of a group of people. The objectivity of this reality is what the subjectivity of students has surrendered in exchange of states blown up by their own humiliation. The states that students experience at the Galleria are caused by the suppression of their own humiliation. They transform Robert’s humiliation into idolatry for Robert. It sounds as perfectly absurd as it is, and it can only be accomplished through prolonged indoctrination.
The loneliness of individualism is abhorrent. It is, as far as I’ve been able to verify for myself, the heart of false personality. One can choose to be independent and isolated or dependent and a part of the whole. There is no unity in individualism. Individualism is simply a piece of the whole lost in space. No one is ever alone.
The Fellowship separated us from the rest of humanity as much as from our own nations, families and friends and replaced that with idolatry for Robert and an imaginary world of higher beings. It turned our efforts to work for the family, nation and time that we were gifted with for the effort to work for a man who uses people sexually and economically only for his own benefit because no one else profits economically, sexually or spiritually from the Fellowship of Friends, although many still inside continue to think that buffering life in its own terms has some kind of spiritual benefit.
A different objective reality comes from choosing to be dependent and part of the whole. To be able to acknowledge the whole of one’s programming as part of one’s self in a moment in time, the whole of one’s time as the root of one’s play and one’s own life as a minute in time, a second of being for generations to come, is the consciousness that knows that every human being matters not a milimeter less than one’s self. Past and future are but the root and the leaves of one’s presence.
Robert, the Fellowship of Friends, stole our past and our future and asked as to crystallize in the present. To be only the trunk. It fixed us to the moment and to our selves and stripped us from each others being. It raped our humanity and made us inhuman. It asked of us to allow for each others integrity to be degraded. It takes everything that is wholesome and beautiful and degrades it into momentary utensils. Treats young people like whores and makes fun of it like whoever has the sad role of playing Vinnie the Fish, and be proud of it. It asked of us to idolize Robert, Girard and Asaf and treat everybody else like nobodys. I have never met so many sick people in one place at the same time and hope to never again have that opportunity. “Freedom,” spiritual freedom to love life and humanity in its own terms and not a few sick people at our own cost.
694
“Vinnie is pathetic in his ignorance, but dangerous, too, IMO. He might even be flattered by that statement, to make my point.” = sociopath
Some posts were thoughtful and sincere. Thank you.
For me, I am still stuck with this idea of morality of sex and know one seems to want to go near it. Strange!
I think for me when there is an intelligent conversation about that then it will help as a catalyst for more understanding for me.
Vinnie wrote to a rude poster, “You don’t talk to real people like that, or you would not be still walking the Earth”. Probably true. The ironic thing is it is accepted for the non members to be sarcastic and rude to members posts, but the moment a member is sarcastic and offers another angle they are ripped apart not with TRUTH AND DEBATE but with name calling.
699
“morality of sex”
How many times does it have to be repeated that it is not about the “morality of sex”. You’re impenetrable. And actually, I’m sure you know what the fuck it’s about, but you dance all around it without looking at it. The mechanics of the sex is irrelevant….irrelevant….irrelevant.
Now, are you going to (in a few posts) insist again that it’s about “morality of sex”? Or might it be more about the morality of power and coercion?
You want to be taken seriously, try dropping the song and dance about something no one here is addressing, except you and the other assholes.
I think Vinnie is a girl.
English, and on salary.
Let’s not fall in their trap folks!!!
699
““You don’t talk to real people like that, or you would not be still walking the Earth”.
Incidentally, when I’m confronted by absurdities and assholes out in “life” I speak the same as I do here, at the same time I respect people who warrant it. And I’m still walking the earth, and I can take care of myself. And I’m pretty sure the people who “know” me would back that up.
I don’t hide behind a pseudonym to spout off. I take responsibility for what I say.
699 Fat Boy
Actually, there’s been plenty said here about the morality of sex. It’s pretty simple really. I, and many others from what I read and hear, have no problem with two (or more) consenting adults doing whatever the want with each other. But I/we do have a problem when sex is forced on someone or when the relationship is one of trust, as with psychiatrist/patient, teacher/student, and the psychiatrist/teacher takes advantage of that trust. OK?
699
“The ironic thing is it is accepted for the non members to be sarcastic and rude to members posts…”
You are equating how you and Vinnie etc. are treated here with the blog’s attitude to “members”. This is another song and dance of avoidance. It’s addressed to YOU…and VINNIE and your clones, NOT to “members”. “Members” is all inclusive, and believe me, you fuck-knuckles don’t represent the bulk of the “members”.
701
Sorry, I don’t buy it. I can’t imagine a woman like that. If he is a she, then she’s ten times more fucked up than if she was a he.
699 Fat Boy.
Regarding “rude posters”, yes, they do exist here, but it’s not the whole story, obviously. Many bloggers are willing to engage you in “truth and debate”, as you well know. Just ignore the obscenities and name calling – I do. It’s a small price to pay for the freedom of speech this blog provides – a first in the Fellowship of Friend’s long history.
701 Dream Catcher
I think