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The Fellowship of Friends Discussion, part (1)2

 

This discussion is about a group called the Fellowship of Friends. Click on the Comments button to join in.

From Wikipedia:

Pro-Fellowship of Friends propaganda: The Fellowship of Friends is a spiritual school based on the Fourth Way tradition, founded in 1970 by Robert Earl Burton. It is a different form of a Fourth Way school than the one presented by George Gurdjieff, Peter Ouspensky and Rodney Collin, and it currently incorporates other sources into its teaching. The organization’s stated task is to enable its members to awaken and develop a soul that can survive death and achieve immortality. This task includes preserving the highest forms of beauty, knowledge, and culture; and using this task as a vehicle for consciousness. As of 2007, the organization has approximately 2,000 members, about a third of which live around the organization’s property in Northern California. The rest of its members live in North and South America, Europe and Asia. The Fellowship of Friends is recognized by the state and federal governments as a non-profit religious organization.

Anti-Fellowship of Friends propaganda: In 1967 Robert Burton attended a meeting led by Alex Horn. Mr. Horn was a student of the Fourth Way and conducted a group based on the Gurdjieff-Ouspensky ideas. Burton devoted himself to studying the Fourth Way and to participating in Mr. Horn’s group. After eighteen months he parted from his teacher. In 1970, Robert Earl Burton founded the Fellowship of Friends. In 1971, the organization acquired 1,300 acres of land in Oregon House, California, in order to provide its members with a retreat where they could realize their principles of self-development.

Robert Burton, stating that he was receiving guidance from higher beings, is said to have predicted a world-wide depression in 1984, an earthquake which would destroy California in 1998, and a nuclear war in 2006.

Some former members have criticized Burton for alleged sexual abuse, excessive control, and brainwashing, and several of them have left the organization because of these concerns. A former member sued Robert Burton and the organization in 1996 for the same reasons. This case and another suit claiming sexual abuse were settled out of court. The Fellowship of Friends’ president stated in a newspaper article that one suit was dismissed and two others were settled by the organization’s insurance companies to save the costs of litigation.

It should be added that membership fees consist of 10% of income, two extra payments each year and payments for dinners, talks and presentations. The Fellowship of Friends is not a cheap business.

This discussion is in its 12th incarnation, previous incarnations can be found here (hosted by the FoF blog and Animam Recro):

For part 11 click here.

For part 10 click here.

For part 9 click here.

For part 8 click here.

For part 7 click here.

For part 6 click here.

For part 5 click here.

For part 4 click here.

For part 3 click here.

For part 2 click here.

For the article that I wrote so very long ago, and for the first and potentially most enlightening part of the discussion click here.

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/ respectively.

Enjoy the discussion, be civil and polite, and above all have fun!

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647 Responses

  1. on June 13, 2007 at 2:23 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    The joy of Renaissance! I remember it well. For me joining the Fellowship was magical. My perspective student meetings changed the direction of my life. Now I had purpose; I had met the people I was looking for. Wow! What a ride. And then moving to the property in ’76 leaving everything behind. No matter. I was home and what was drawing me there was so special. I could connect with these people. My life thus far had been so confusing with many disappointments. Now I had direction. So off I went to California where I stayed, more or less, for 20 years.

    For me living near and working on the property was exciting and fun. I never laughed so hard or had so many beautiful experiences with great people. I am so grateful for that. But I do want to make it very clear that I do not thank Robert. I am grateful for all the people who made Renaissance possible (we created it, not Robert). He was good at giving directions in those days and for that I commend him. Working hard all day, dinner under the stars for 5 bucks, a couple glasses of wine with friends, and ahh, all those wonderful concerts, activities, plays. Who could ask for a better lifestyle? And actually for what we were receiving it was a pretty good deal. I worked off all my special donations in the kitchen, which was great fun most of the time (unless you caught the chef having a bad day).

    For all of those special moments thank you friends! I will be forever grateful for some wonderful times and life long friendships. Let’s not give Robert credit though. We created it ourselves. All Robert has done is try to spoil it and I think he’s doing a great job of it lately. Please don’t give him the credit. Give it to yourselves. Honor your lives and move forward.

    Wake up!


  2. on June 13, 2007 at 2:53 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    Just read you’re back Sheik! Thanks. Now I realize how much work you have to do. At this point I think you’re making a difference in many people’s lives keeping the blog afloat and with your help it’ll stay alive and healthy. Thanks again!


  3. on June 13, 2007 at 3:10 pm Ames Gilbert

    Thank you, Sheik, for clearing the last page (11) of Fellowship of Friends spam. It is good that you can see the IP addresses—you can catch the perpatrators at their work, and they can’t hide behind their masks of anonymity.

    It was a good education to see the spam attack in real time, and to see those opposed to shedding light on the Fellowship for what they are. Hey guys, if there is nothing to fear, nothing to hide, let your righteousness be your armor. Why not put more trust in your version of C-Influence, you have exclusive rights to their help, don’t you?

    Sheik, I send you deep appreciation for your work, it must take up a lot of your spare time…

    With love to all, ‘in’ and ‘out’,
    Ames


  4. on June 13, 2007 at 3:17 pm formerfofer

    on 13 Jun 2007 at 6:08 am703
    Wrong With This Picture wrote:

    From a witness of the “fourth state”:
    “In 1971, Teacher and a student were riding in a relatively new Dodge Dart along Hiway 1 near Carmel. Teacher was 32 years old at the time. They were listening to a baseball game on the car radio. As the odometer of the car hit the mileage number “1954?, they passed a mailbox which had the name Thompson on it. Teacher indicated that this was a shock, as in 1954, Bobby Thompson of the New York Giants had hit a famous home run in a playoff game (which Teacher had apparently heard on the radio). 44 miles later as the odometer hit 1998, the mailbox on the side of the road showed the number 41211. Teacher indicated that THIS was also a shock which meant that California was going to fall into the Pacific Ocean in 1998 on April 12th at 11 am.”

    *Since Robert started the Fellowship in 1970, and some of his earliest students said he was then a man number 4 (he was quoted as saying he was “a budding man number 5”), within a year he was making predictions. Hmmmm. It seems highly unlikely that a man no4 would be capable of doing that, especially since making predictions is a notoriously uncertain activity.

    on 13 Jun 2007 at 6:15 am725
    Wrong With This Picture wrote:

    Burton believed that the oil company that used the advertising logo “UNION ‘76? was a sign from C Influence that he, Burton, would “crystallize into a man number six” in 1976. There was an elaborate ‘crystallization party’ in honor of the event.
    Actually Burton predicted the exact day that “lightening bolts” would crystallize him as a man number six, however, according to Burton he did not crystallize until three days later, so the party had to be postponed. Remembrances from a follower:
    “I drove onto the property on the night of that third day, the stars were brighter than I had ever seen them. I knew then that the Teacher had crystallized.”

    *So, just 6 years after starting the Fellowship, Robert declared himself to be a man number 6. According to himself he went from man no4 to man no6 in just 6 years. Hmmmm.

    When did Robert claim to have crystallized as a man no5? Does anyone know? And did he ever describe that experience?

    formerfofer
    (1978-1992)


  5. Hey Sheik:

    Thanks for your efforts! All that pent up emotion can sure make us a rowdy bunch.

    Listen, I’m unclear on the exact definition of ‘flaming’, and I realize it might mean more work on your part, nevertheless would it be possible to give a poster a public warning first and then block them on the second offense with a public announcement to that effect? Then we can learn by example instead of the poster just disappearing. I realize that profanity would be a clear violation, what else would constitute flaming…how about confronting a flawed argument? Or give us a hypothetical example? (Some Buddhist teachers keep a stick handy for those students nodding off meditation…)

    As far as spammers, there is a special place in hell reserved for them…

    Wake up Little Suzy #1
    You’re welcome! Thanks for your appreciation and for your contribution in making Renaissance, for most part, a magical place. I felt a deep saddness to hear the vineyard was about 75% gone after all our efforts. Like parents requested to give up their children, much injustice can be fostered in the name of non-identification.


  6. If you or your post is censored by Sheik and company go here:

    http://fofgraduates.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/graduates-of-the-fellowship-of-friends/

    This message as been posted on both blogs.


  7. From the Sheik:

    “I will also probably appoint two more moderators to help me with the work, I have already decided who to pick but we shall see how they feel about it.”

    This means that people you may or may not know will be able to connect you and your post through your IP address. Your IP address is your computer’s DNA signature, usually it changes slightly with each new log-on, but is readily traceable by those with access to it back to your particular ISP.


  8. 8

    And so…?


  9. on June 13, 2007 at 3:58 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    Whalerider: “Much injustice can be fostered in the name of non-identification”.

    Who taught us to take the conscience out of non-identification?

    The spoiler himself, RB.


  10. Graduates: You are a funny one. First, no one has been appointed yet, I haven’t even asked anyone yet. Aren’t you overreacting a bit?

    And to be absolutely honest, knowing your IP address means nothing at all – any website you visit (including google, wikipedia, your e-mail provider) will store and be aware of your IP address. Hmmm…

    And yes, I will leave the link to your forum in here. Have fun with it and good luck.

    Whalerider: I have only blacklisted those who committed the spam attack yesterday. An offence warranting a blacklisting would have to be of equal strength. I won’t be deleting swearing (Bruce), alternative views (everyone here), or anything of that kind. My only aim is to keep this discussion going, nothing more and nothing less.


  11. Bruce 9
    8

    And so…?

    ————-

    So what if the FOF offered them five grand to identify you and all your posts in order to build a civil case (libel, harassment,) against you? You are counting on the integrity of ex-cult members to keep your comments anonymous. Follow? Sure?


  12. on June 13, 2007 at 4:02 pm Old Fish In The Sea

    I would give Robert some credit. He pulled the group together and came up with a structure that allowed us to work together in a relatively harmonious way. He set some nice standards and many of us learned from that. He provided many useful exercises (not interrupting for example). I personally have no real regrets for my 30 years except that I was way too slow to see that there was benefit in taking responsibility for my own life and that this was only partially possible while remaining a student.

    It is one thing to give Robert credit. It is another to believe that denying him is wrong. Robert has clearly been the mind behind much of what is good at Isis but this comes at a price. It is probable that there comes a time when as Joseph Granadas said, the price is too high for the benefits.

    It is important to realize that the primary cost is giving someone else responsibility over how your time is spent. There is also a psychological cost that comes with supporting Robert’s lifestyle which may be in conflict with some of your personal ideals. It is suprising how good it feels to not be responsible for supporting Robert’s flaws.

    There comes a time when we each need to take responsibility for how we spend our time. We need to develop our own principles and learn to live by them. The efforts of trying to be present, free from feminine dominance, and in good householder eventually lead one to see that supporting Robert’s ways is more denying force than 3rd force. How can we learn to take responsibility for what we think is right when we are putting so much time, effort and money into supporting that which is obviously in some ways jaded?

    We can only learn so much by following a man that cannot differentiate between a shock from C influence and an ordinary coincidence. I believe the predictions and hundreds of other examples and statements from Robert show that he lives in and promotes an imaginary world. I remember when he said that smoke came out of his ears when he crystalized not to mention the many years of understanding C influence’s desires through license plates. There are so many examples and his relationship to the prehistoric cave drawings is really the same as using license plates to understand life.

    But Robert does incessantly promote being present.

    Although being present and doing exercises to hold presence is a large part of an ideal life, there is additionally the task of taking responsibility for our actions, for taking responsibility for our life and what we support in our life. If Robert’s lifestyle is what you want to support then I say stay in the Fellowship. If you have other principles, even if they are on a small scale, then you may gain more for your own evolution by supporting your own ideals. Then those principles become your own and all of your presence and physical efforts can go towards supporting your own idea of a beautiful life. Your life including your failures truly become your own and this accelerates the learning curve. When you set your own principles, you can include principles and ideas gained from the Fellowship while letting go of the lies and excesses that the Fellowship promotes. Leaving is not a crime but rather an effort that requires courage and independent thinking. If we find that we cannot live by our own principles, there is the option of returning. There is also the option of trying again.

    I think it is appopriate to be grateful for what we have gained through the Fellowship. It is childish to blame everything on Robert and his problems. But it is also appropriate to understand that we don’t owe the Fellowship anything. We paid for what we gained. We paid exorbitantly. WhaleRider paid for us. Many paid in ways that far outweigh any financial contribution. There is no obligation to keep paying if you are ready to take responsibility for your own ideals.

    It is a beautiful thing to set your own ideals, based on your own essence, and live by those ideals. It is beautiful and it will create states that are far deeper than those created by standing in a meeting, or sitting at a breakfast or dinner, listening to Asaf and Robert, expound an imaginary picture of the world which you are supposed to follow.


  13. the Esoteric Sheik of Inner Confusion
    Graduates: You are a funny one. First, no one has been appointed yet, I haven’t even asked anyone yet. Aren’t you overreacting a bit?

    And to be absolutely honest, knowing your IP address means nothing at all – any website you visit (including google, wikipedia, your e-mail provider) will store and be aware of your IP address. Hmmm…

    And yes, I will leave the link to your forum in here. Have fun with it and good luck.

    Whalerider: I have only blacklisted those who committed the spam attack yesterday. An offence warranting a blacklisting would have to be of equal strength. I won’t be deleting swearing (Bruce), alternative views (everyone here), or anything of that kind. My only aim is to keep this discussion going, nothing more and nothing less.

    _______________

    I don’t like the fact that a number of messages that should not have been deleted from blog 11 were deleted:

    http://fofgraduates.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/graduates-of-the-fellowship-of-friends/

    You may have deleted them by mistake, or not?


  14. on June 13, 2007 at 4:14 pm Veronicapoe

    Howard Carter/#564 wrote:

    > Any discussion regarding the cult status of FoF ought to
    > first address the organizations that list or designate
    > cults – the advisories, watchdog agencies, etc. Who are
    > these individuals and what are their qualifications,
    > motives for getting into the cult watching “profession”?
    ……..
    > To my knowledge there is no organization or board that
    > certifies cult watchers. No license is required to open a
    > cult advisory;

    Awakening is an uncredentialed process.


  15. Thanks Sheik-

    It got ugly for a minute.

    I know people who joined FOF and left before one year had elapsed. They must have had a bad experience. But I think those of us that stayed for 5, 10, or 30 years had a sincerely positive overall experience. No one who is a former member seems to have made any claims to the contrary.

    What made me leave was the cummulative build up of what seemed to me to be contradictions, restrictions and a lack of understanding of what Robert was trying to teach. I’ve also only been interested in “relative awakening”. I’m not going to end my relationship with my family, which I was “photographed” as doing by another member, for the sake of waking up in this lifetime.

    The thing that bothered me most, was recently, when members mentioned to Robert which work I’s they were using for the subject of the sequence (the 3rd and 5th steps) he advised against using many of their choices because he felt that as a subject, they were not going to allow for a completed sequence. I was so surprised that Robert would not have passed this info on previously. If he was already aware of which works I’s were most effective as subjects, why was he letting us practice this new technique in the wrong manner? That to me is not a good teacher. It may sound trite, but that’s how I view things. If I pay money for a good teacher, I want a good teacher. Add to the scenerio the fact that I felt it was unacceptable to question anything regarding Robert, especially if it might be judgement I’s.

    Best to all.


  16. I’d love to be brought to court for anything I’ve stated. As far as my story, what I stated is the truth as I know it. As far as my opinion, it’s my opinion. I doubt they would pay $5000.00 for something they could have for free if they ask me. And I sign all my posts.

    And so…?


  17. There once was a gifted woman called Ayn Rand who said “The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot cliam to be defenders of minorities.”
    As Josh Billings said ” as scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand.”
    I am not! neither have i ever been! an anti semite whatever that actually means, as the following excerpt from a bona fide jew, Fredy Perlman who narrowly escaped the concentration camps in Germany points out in his book Anti Semitism and the Beirut Pogrom,” i learned that people like the ancient Hebrews, Akkadians, Arabs, Phoenicians and Ethiopians had all come from the land of Shem (the Arabian Peninsula) and had all spoken the language of Shem, which was what made them Shemites or Semites. I learned that the Jewish religion had originated among Semites in the ancient Levantine State Judah, the Christian religion among Semites in the ancient Levantine towns Nazareth and Jerusalem, the Mohammedan religion among Semites in the ancient Arabian towns Mecca and Medina, and that for the past 1300 years the region called Palestine had been a sacred place to the Islamic Semites who lived there and in surrounding regions.) So if what Freddy say is true, then we have not only jewish but also christian and Islamic semites. I AM however against ALL forms of extremism whether its Islamic, Catholic or Zionist and my primary concern are the Jesuits whose induction literatures validity no-one seems to refute and whose agenda is a one world religion which they will try to bring about by hook or by crook. As to the Jewish domination of the Media and hollywood, just put (jewish owned media) into the search line, click and choose from any one of the 1.260.000 results. Of the top ones, one says that six Jewish companies own 96% of the worlds media. Now if they dont have any agenda thats very good. Many of my Jewish friends are very much against the zionists, some of them go so far as to say that zionists are not even Jewish. They tell me that the zionists are descended from pagan hordes who pushed into russia early on and became proselytes of Judaism.They then created the Khazar Kingdom in 692AD then in 955 Russia conquered them, this is where the so called “Khazarian jews stem from”.
    Anyway, i can feel that im very much in a minority here. Although i can guarantee i spend much more time around the synogogue questioning their wise men than any of the supposedly jewish friends posting here. Thomas jefferson pointed out “democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%” so i will not be taking part in any more discussion on the matter and will focus instead on the work. Just “abre los ochos.” By the way friends i very much enjoy hearing the quotes that you all post please keep sharing. Heres one in relation to R.E.B “If a man is not fit to govern himself. How can he be fit to govern someone else”. James Madison.
    Also “what good fortune for governments that the people do not think. ” Adolf Hitler”.
    And last but not least.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of attrocities commited by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” George Orwell.


  18. Graduates… it appears to me that your offer of less control is actually an attempt to increase “your” control. It also feels pretty King of Clubsey in a semi-offensive way. The Shiek has given you a forum to push your “thing” and you’re presenting this as an affront to the posters here. Many of the posts on your blog start with “This was deleted from the blog:” This has a creepy feeling to it.


  19. 17: “I AM however against ALL forms of extremism whether its Islamic, Catholic or Zionist and my primary concern are the Jesuits whose induction literatures validity no-one seems to refute and whose agenda is a one world religion which they will try to bring about by hook or by crook.”

    You must realize that you are overlooking the one form of extremism that plays the most direct part in your own life. Your own.


  20. Some memories
    I went to my prospective student meetings in South Lake Tahoe in early 1976. I had seen a flyer at the local IHOP. I has just moved to town after graduating from college and I knew no one and didn’t have a job yet. Ram lead the meetings. I had met a couple in New Mexico the year before who had been in a Gurdieff-Ouspensky group in California and had been asked to get married. I had thought they were somewhat of a mismatch, so my main aim at the first meeting was to ascertain that this was not the same group. I did this with great difficulty because I was told not to use the word “I” in speaking and I had not been told about substituting the word “it” for “I”. I was assured that this was a “school of love” and such things did not happen. (Two years later it did happen to many couples). At one of the meetings a young pregnant woman left the meeting in tears because Ram insisted she follow the exercise of not crossing her legs. After I found a job I decided to join and went to the teaching apartment to make my first donation. Sharole Mannering met me at the door in curlers. I was quite relieved that there were normal people in the school. She told me that she was the center director and that Ram was gone. She had not been at my prospective student meetings because Ram had not told her about them and had also not told her that she was supposed to be co-directing the center with him. Sharole was a good friend for many years until she died. When we were all told we could only have pedigreed pets, she arranged for her parents to adopt my beloved cat. When her father turned out to be allergic, I quietly got my cat back.

    I do not regret my years in the Fellowship. I did not join because of Robert. I did finally leave (after 17 years) because I could not in good conscience continue to support him and his lifestyle. When I could not bear to be in the same room as the person who was supposed to be my teacher, I knew that something was terriby wrong.
    Love to all my old friends, in and out.
    Christina

    cmsabin@infostations.net


  21. Bruce 18
    Graduates… it appears to me that your offer of less control is actually an attempt to increase “your” control. It also feels pretty King of Clubsey in a semi-offensive way. The Shiek has given you a forum to push your “thing” and you’re presenting this as an affront to the posters here. Many of the posts on your blog start with “This was deleted from the blog:” This has a creepy feeling to it.

    ———-

    Look, that’s a lot of material there (deleted from blog 11) and it is useful material, it took some time to find it and post it. It was deleted wholesale without even being examined (assuming), so maybe there is some annoyance and a little over reaction. It should not have been deleted because it is needed information and there is no way of knowing if the deletion was intentional or not. It did waste what took some time to collect and post.


  22. Graduates #12

    “So what if the FOF offered them five grand to identify you and all your posts in order to build a civil case (libel, harassment,) against you? You are counting on the integrity of ex-cult members to keep your comments anonymous.”

    Wait a minute, aren’t you an ex-cult member, too? You don’t seem to have such a high regard for yourself then, which is suspect. That really seems like vanity attacking vanity, a telltale sign of the FOF.

    If there is a price on my head, how do I know you are not a bounty hunter in disguise? You seem to have a lot of time on your hands monitoring this blog…and you are attempting to exploit a perceived weakness to get people to switch to your side…Hmmmm

    Well, one thing for sure about most FOF’ers in or out, we are all opportunists in one way or another, for better or worse. Who taught you about exploitation anyway?

    Me personally, I’m sticking with the sheik.


  23. 22…”which is suspect.”

    I agree, it is very suspicious.


  24. Cyclops, give the Jew thing a rest so we can try to find something useful in your words. You’re just making yourself a pariah.


  25. 9 bruce .spam amongst other things, oh king of belligerence!


  26. 25 Give me a break.


  27. 26. sure bruce arm or leg.!


  28. on June 13, 2007 at 5:26 pm Was KathleenW

    Graduates, I think it would be fine to cut the Shiek some slack.

    I don’t know if you saw the sheer tonnage of spam that appeared last night. I can easily see how a few legitimate posts could be mistakenly swept up in the clean-up process.

    I’m grateful for the intervention.


  29. Those who can send in an extra dollar to paypal. When this blog is gone-appreciate it now.


  30. Various posts that got deleted from blog eleven:

    I had a friend in S.F., an Israeli who went by the name of J. B. (can’t use his name) and one day he told me an interesting story: he had visited an Israeli friend who was working as a psychiatrist in Los Angeles and during his visit he told this old friend who shared an interest in various spiritual ideas that he was a student in a school with a conscious teacher. In point of fact J. B. went to meet with this old friend to “introduce him to the school.” The psychiatrist asked for the name of the conscious teacher and when J. B. said Robert Burton the psychiatrist said sorry but your teacher is not conscious. Being as superstitious and we all once were J. B. was of course rather taken aback. Gathering some composure he asked his friend why he would say such a thing. Without disclosing the name of the client, of course, the psychiatrist told J. B. a story of a young man (barely 20 or so) who was in the FoF for just a few months who was allegedly sexually put upon by Robert Burton during a lengthy encounter while visiting the FoF property. He then left the organization with severe psychological problems. J. B. reported this meeting to Miles Barth forthwith and Miles requested that the psychiatrist ask his client to meet with Miles and tell his story, which then took place. One month or so later Miles Barth left the school without informing the rest of us why he had done so. What if we had all known, I mean all of us, way back then?

    Burton on Armageddon (from a circulated memo):

    [Florence, Italy, Nov. 2, 1982]

    “Revelations: “…the seventh angel…” After the seventh conscious being appears, Armageddon will come.” (Burton believes that his teaching will produce seven conscious men.)

    [Nov. 3, 1982]

    “C-Influence will ensure that all that is left of culture will be taken to Renaissance [the Fellowship compound] for posterity.”

    “Florence, Venice, Siena will probably not be bombed. C-Influence has indicated to me that Naples (home of NATO), Rome, and Milan will be bombed. Neutron bombs may be used. (Neutron bombs destroy only humans.) ”

    [Nov. 4, 1982]

    “We are founding a new civilization.”

    “Armageddon has wrung a school out of the gods.”

    “The only error in Christ’s teaching was the statement “my yoke is mild.”

    [Nov. 9, 1982]

    “My role is to predict the fall of California and Armageddon.”

    “People must come to us for souls.”

    “Don’t put money into banks after Dec. 1983.”

    “The depression will work to our advantage, we will go through it unscathed. We are very well prepared for the coming depression in 1984.”

    “California is the artichoke capitol of the world…It means it will choke in 1998.”

    “Haley’s Comet is going to ruin it all, this whole decade is not a good decade.”

    [Nov. 11]

    “We are a very high school on earth, Rembrandt and Goethe are in a higher school. There are angels at this table right now.”

    “The 44th president of the US will be in office at the occurrence of Armageddon, 2006.”

    [Nov. 14, 1982]

    “After the year 2006, Genoa may be the port where art is taken by ship to the East Coast – from there by existing highways to Renaissance [now called Apollo].”

    [Nov. 12]

    “We are the greatest school since Christ’s.”

    From Burton (recorded from early “teachings”):

    “The formation that a human’s scale of vision sees as coral may be in reality the earth’s set of teeth. Coral is found near shorelines and what we see as waves is, alarmingly, the earth’s tongue rolling upon the shoreline. The shoreline, then, would somehow be the earth’s lips. As one observes this phenomenon one can easily visualize the waves as a tongue licking the earth’s shorey lips. Storms, which are a strong negative force, are created out of hunger by the earth. The variety of organic death they leave in their wake is washed back into the earth’s main bloodstream, the ocean.”

    “As one awakens one sees the earth, humans and organic life on earth objectively, and finds one’s visual properties are of the scale of an electron microscope. What we take for trees and rivers are, surprisingly, the earth’s hair and blood veins. What appears to us as a cloud formation is most probably the earth perspiring. On hot summer days clouds form over mountains, and fog sometimes rolls onto the land masses. Similarly, on hot days beads of moisture emerge from our body or cosmos. We call this noteworthy event perspiration.”

    From court records, considers himself a “goddess in a man’s body”:

    “Burton explicitly told Troy that the “angels” wanted Troy to disrobe, and the “angels” wanted Troy to submit to Burton’s sexual advances because Burton himself was an “angel”, a goddess in a man’s body.”

    Commentary:

    Ex-boyfriends have threatened Burton’s life several times, he travels with an armed bodyguard. On one occasion, it was reported, a young man from Bakersfield showed up at the Fellowship dining lodge armed with a 22 rifle looking for Burton. He was tackled, disarmed and put on a bus. The police were not contacted. At one time guns were not allowed, but now almost every male member of the Fellowship living in Oregon House has a gun. There is an informal militia armed with shotguns, rifles and 44 magnum handguns in order to protect the ‘Teacher’ from the disgruntled ex-members who regret their sexual encounters with Burton.

    This is a direct quote from Robert Earl Burton (from an internal memo):

    “I am the Avatar, and I was born in 1939. I am not Christ, yet I am the Christ of the age…and I assume I prepare for him.

    “I would like you to take the idea simply. It simply means that of all the humans on the planet, I suffer consciously the most.”

    Girard Haven, “Creating A Soul”, page 62:

    “However, some things can be verified only by adopting the attitude that they are true. For example, to verify that this is a real School, it is necessary to act as if that had been verified and then see if it produces the desired results. This means that we need to adopt attitudes at will without prior verification.”

    From Girard Haven:

    “Strangely, the shock which bridged this interval for me was the ‘non-depression’ of 1984. On the one hand, it was no longer possible to believe the predictions, for the depression obviously had not occurred as predicted. At the same time, Robert was still my Teacher and I had no doubt that he was conscious, so how could I believe anything else? In particular, I refused to allow myself to disbelieve him, that is, to believe that what he said would not come true. Not only would this have been a denial of my teacher, but it would also be one of the most mechanical responses possible, based as it is on both opposite thinking and feminine dominance in the form of the desire to minimize friction. Being thus unable either to believe or disbelieve, I was left in a state which could best be described as non- or suspended belief.”

    From Girard Haven:

    Page 576, “Creating A ‘Soul'”:

    “In particular, if he [Robert Earl Burton] knows what he is doing and we don’t, we have no basis for judging or doubting him. Instead, we simply have to trust him, as a child trusts his parents, or dog trusts its master. If he asks us to do things which seem to have no connection to awakening–or even to be ‘wrong’–we have no choice but
    to do them anyway.”


  31. The paypal window is asking for an amount in British pounds. Does anyone know the current exchange rate?


  32. bruce .sorry about 27 it was below me . ive just looked at the other blog and it seems harmless.There were some interesting posts from our friends which werent posted here . ps are you centred in an emotional part?


  33. Nope, not in the emotional part of anything. Could be my racial heritage.


  34. It’s not that I think the other blog is harmful, it’s the dynamic behind the drive that has me uncomfortable.


  35. As one who had posts deleted last night I would wish to express this-

    I was wondering to myself if I could care less. I have thought long and hard about this, if it would be possible to care less about those posts being deleted. I sat silently with myself for a period of time trying to clear my mind and come to that endless open space to see if maybe I could find an answer to this question posed to myself: “could I possibly care less?” The answer seemed to be that, yes, it is theoretically possible that I could care less. However, since this is the real world and it is best not to invest too much in theory I have come to the conclusion that if I could care less I would. So as of now I must conclude that I couldn’t care less.

    ( I did think the one about the “Simorghusbord” was pretty funny though)


  36. Bruce 34
    It’s not that I think the other blog is harmful, it’s the dynamic behind the drive that has me uncomfortable.

    —————

    When a mercury is in change of a blog then you need a second blog to keep the situation honest. There’s nothing devious about a back-up blog. It’s there because of the fact the “messenger of the gods” can’t help but put a little spin on the messages he carries from time to time. As an example, “There are no kings of clubs” This is the moderator of the blog interjecting his authority, his opinion, into the minds of the bloggers. And obviously he does not know what he is saying. Another example, the deletion of maybe eight posts from blog eleven that were not spam. How does that happen? They were all from the same IP address, is that just a random coincidence? Probably. So, sorry to agitate your “spider sense” but I think a second, backup blog (that most will never use) is needed.


  37. on June 13, 2007 at 6:46 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    xena: about 2x. 10 pounds equals $20.26


  38. 36…” but I think a second, backup blog (that most will never use) is needed.”

    No problem with that.

    “When a mercury is in change of a blog then you need a second blog to keep the situation honest.”

    That, I have a problem with (sometimes).

    “There’s nothing devious about a back-up blog.”

    As I said, I have no objection to the blog, nor do I think it’s basically devious. I said the “dynamic” was getting a little icky. You know, “come here for unmoderated, unadulterated posts” kinda thing.

    I think the Sheik has done a remarkable job considering what he’s dealing with.


  39. on June 13, 2007 at 6:51 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    #30 graduates, at the end: Page #576 creating a soul. Good grief Girard, what can you be thinking? Are you?


  40. Bruce, other regular contributors…

    Have you noticed something?

    All these people that were energetically engaged here in the earlier days are suddenly mainly missing. There were people leaving the school talking to people that had already left and the emotional atmosphere was heady and intense. Now most of those are gone. Do you know why? Because the blog has moved into the ‘inner circle’ of selected participants. There is another blog or more than one where those that only want to talk to others of a certain and similar quality are busy trading tips on how to survive post FOF. One blog is full of people that say, “If Burton says to remember yourself then, by God, that’s the last thing I’m going to do!” and so on.

    I’m certainly not invited to any of these parties and I’m used to that. Generally I externally consider my good friends by not showing up at their parties, even if they ask. Inevitably something valuable gets broken, people are injured, people what to protect their unmarried sisters and so on. You know how it goes. But what about the rest of you pouring your hearts out here for the cause? Have you been selected into the inner circle where they dare not cast pearls before swine?

    On the other hand maybe everyone is just bored with this. That’s it right, isn’t it? They are just bored?


  41. Sheik, is the blog text copyrighted?


  42. Graduates,#40

    You sound a bit paranoid to me. I don’t think there is any plot going on here. People post here when they feel they have something worthwhile to share and then they move on or not. I think your pride was hurt when the sheik told you he had not read your entire post to him (I’m sorry, I didn’t read your entire post either, there are only so many minutes in a day) so you immediately started your own blog. Perhaps this blog and the sheik are not perfect, but they are definitely providing an important service that was not available before.

    Christina


  43. xena 42
    Graduates,#40

    You sound a bit paranoid to me. I don’t think there is any plot going on here. People post here when they feel they have something worthwhile to share and then they move on or not. I think your pride was hurt when the sheik told you he had not read your entire post to him (I’m sorry, I didn’t read your entire post either, there are only so many minutes in a day) so you immediately started your own blog. Perhaps this blog and the sheik are not perfect, but they are definitely providing an important service that was not available before.

    Christina

    —————

    I’ve got to run, but of course you and the Sheik read every word twice. You think I don’t know how desperately curious people are?


  44. I did not write the words that are under the dotted lines in post 43. Who did that?

    Christina


  45. 44 He was quoting you and then made his comment below the dotted lines. People do that.


  46. Of course. He was just so fast I was caught by surprise.
    Christina


  47. on June 13, 2007 at 8:24 pm Contrescarpe

    688:
    The King of Denmark? The last one died in 1972!


  48. Opinions on two, it seems to me, extraneous themes.

    Cyclops.
    It didn’t seem to me that you were ever being anti-semetic. My impression was that you were relating stuff you had read about (similar to stuff I have seen) and had not investigated thoroughly(as if that stuff can ever be ferreted out acurrately. It is hard enough figuring out what is going on in front of my face). You seem to be an ok guy. Give it some slack.

    Graduates (King of Clubs?),
    I read every word of your stuff and thought it quite interesting. Maybe not as interesting as you think it is but valuable and even poetic. You created an alternative site and it is linked on this one and hopefully will continue to be.
    Give it some slack.


  49. Graduates #43. Thank you for keeping your response brief, I was able to read it about 10 times in less than a minute. Yes people are curious, I think that’s a good thing. I don’t know about the desparate part. Probably some are and some aren’t.

    Christina


  50. Re: Graduates/King of Clubs 12/40

    Please read Sharon’s post on 11/687. “Though I love the real-time, at least under severe moderation it seemed as though folks thought about the quality and integrity of their posts more than lately. We didn’t have quite so much knee-jerk reaction. We read all the posts in response to a particular set of posts, and formulated our responses from a whole spectrum of angles. It’s starting to read like a bunch of chickens pecking and squawking at each other.”

    Regarding “there is another blog somewhere full of people who say such-and-such”, “selected participants”, “inner circle of the blog”, “anti-semitism”, “FoF tag team”, “sheik is censoring you” and similar; maybe there could be a separate page somewhere on this blog for those who enjoy discussing conspiracy theories, so that this thread could focus on experiences in the Fellowship of Friends.

    Once the blog went real-time, it took on many attributes of a chatroom. Effect: twice as many posts in the same amount of time, glib trading of insults, I’m left with the impression that most posts are not worth reading. Then you know how sometimes you throw away a whole bunch of junk mail and advertisements without realizing that there was a letter buried in all that which actually had some content.


  51. It’s the New Moon. Remember three days before and three days after. Oh, for those of us fumbling around and dropping things in our ‘sleep’.


  52. “None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free” Goethe. including me. cy.


  53. In Reply to ‘Graduate’ ~

    All your Posts, in general…

    Hello ‘Graduate’ ~

    It’s probably just my second cup of coffee kicking in, yet, somewhere there’s gotta be some love and wonderment to go around the adrenal activity, yes?

    It’s is an interesting situation, so much of your approach is straight from the ‘form’ of The Fellowship of Friends, are you sure you’ve graduated?

    It’s easy to say ‘should, could, would’ after the fact, some even think that’s a sign of consciousness, i.e., claiming the ‘common sense wisdom’ of the obviousness of passing time’s unraveling of the lessons in living life’s assumptions, by default, into falling face first in the mud, as one’s own ‘wisdom’, one’s particular ‘destiny’,

    so to say, when it sees someone else with mud on their face, ‘Hey, BTW, that’s one third decomposed granite and two thirds clay and decomposing live oak leaves”.

    Gee wiz, don’t you think you’ve had enough of that from Robert Burton’s spinning of failed predictions as C-Influence’s will to make him more humble; yeah, well, failure to a spiritual egoist is to label it ‘more humble me’,
    thus, eliciting more mechanical sympathy from the ‘motherly’ side of the King of Clubs; wouldn’t want to tell anyone that your coconut was just a little low on milk.

    Were you even in that Jihad poo in ah jet propeller fling last night? I was and can tell you that after considering that the Sheik has read and mediated over 4500 posts, without a cerebral melt down, I trust him or her or it: sometimes I like to think of the Sheik as some form of AI, not to be confused with the AI of The Matrix, I hope.

    I read all those posts; outside of being fine examples of the next possible stage of the Fellowship of Friends, i.e., 5th Way ‘Jihad’ extremism, I saw no value in them, yet, by no means is this a judgment or a license to remove them or even a ‘congrats’ to the Sheik for doing so, simply, that, for what its worth, I don’t miss them a bit and can get them anytime by Goggling Islamic extremist’s web sites.

    Sure, it took time to find, highlight, copy and paste all that stuff, but hey, it also took allot of time to build the nuclear arsenal of the world, to bring all those slaves over from Africa, to kill off and corral the native American Indians, to pollute the oceans of the world and keep the feminine under toe for thousands of years… so, what is your point?

    Since I doubt you were in that Jihad water gun fight last night, you did not get a chance to sense the seething desperateness, the raw hate, the ‘Hey, look, I have an AK-47 stuck in your belly, now, tell me, don’t you believe in Allah?

    Yeah, rock on Robert Burton… I’m betting on the cotton market.

    To me, deleting all the posts belonging to such a spirit is ‘symbolic’, not judgemental, though that’s my take: leaving just one, considering the triad, would send a message that we doubt our principle a little bit; yet, one little lie is not such a big thing is it, or is it, the entire Fellowship of Friends was founded on a little lie, billions of terminal cancer cells begin as ‘one’.

    Imagine, or not, a guy is screaming, shooting up a restaurant, at the end of it, he states to the coppers outside, ‘But I like Wendy’s’… Should Wendy’s then hire lawyers to support the claim that he was temporarily insane, thus acquitting him? That’s kinda where your going with your ‘momma knows best’ theory.

    Believe me, I know it well, whenever the poo hit the fan in my household, particularly concerning my step mother, I would can my grandmother, my ‘backup blog site’… Well you know the rest of the story, no body messes with Grandma, particularly as a Mars Jovial Archtype…

    damn, she was a smokin woman when she needed to be and I loved her through and through for her ability to seize a situation for what it was really worth, usually nothing, and put it in perspective, i.e., “shape up or ship out and BTW, I’m the ship, so don’t worry about your bags getting lost, I’ve got ya back home girl.”

    Of course these are Earth-rules, relative and ‘right’ when put to certain triads, I don’t need a ‘backup blog’ anymore because I found my inner-smokin feminine a long time ago,

    yet, its good to know you ‘guys’ are still in the earth’s atmosphere, flitting here and there, you are needed, just try not to identify, you are not the archetype, its in your blood without your permission.

    Since you’re pretty gung-ho on the ‘Sheik conspiracy theory thing’, do you not think it odd that the very thing you’re worried about happening, deleting/not putting up posts that ‘you’ think are important, that he’s letting you post those very posts?

    Hypocritical? I do not think so, I believe its just another case of a ‘play of features’ and given enough time there’s always going to be an opposite ‘I’ sprout up in the temple somewhere.

    So, rather than advertise ‘the work to be done to post back to the blog what you think should not have been deleted’, well, go girl, walk the talk and let us reap the benefits of your humble and quiet endeavors; the Sheik seems game for it, you?

    I remember once, a ‘student’ asked me what kind of effort they could do to work on Vanity feature, I said,

    “Take a trash bag and go pick up some trash. Do this somewhere relatively and ‘safely’ remote and BTW, don’t ever tell anyone about having done it, not even me.”

    Now, at first the student’s facial expression became wondrous and awe-like, sorta ‘aha-ish’, it was when I said, ‘Don’t tell anyone’ that the gray highlights set back in:

    See, altruism is vanity in disguise, vanity loves the obvious proposals of opposites, supporting this or that version of the same thing, so long as it opposes some others suspected vanity feature, that is, ‘Hey, someone else will pick up my trash for me.’

    True humility is never obvious or in the news paper.

    ___________________________

    Love to you all.

    _______________________________


  54. Bored?

    15,702 Hits

    Looks to me that we’re swingin and hitting some home runs!

    ________________

    l.t.y.a.


  55. on June 13, 2007 at 9:11 pm You-me-us-they

    To all concerned with page 11 and the deleted posts:

    One post from me
    (another for me too but my memory got it!)
    was deleted and I do not mind posting again its main content.

    It was kind of addressed to Graduate, the promotor of the “other” blog, exclusively Ex-FOF ( the ex-Cult members he does not trust!).

    Here it goes:

    This blog AND any other are precious.
    We should defend “dirty business free speach” no matter which form it takes!

    The no moderation and reality time (we asked for)
    gave “surprising” results on page 11.
    So what?
    Surprised by “reality”?

    By the way, situations (inner or outer) are labelled
    “surprise” when we like them
    and
    “problem” when we do not like them!

    In work language, we unite: a shock is shock!

    Just “rock and roll” on the posts you consider “insane”.
    It is as simple as going down the page using a responsive little harrow pointing down till the “insane” is finished.
    That’s about it!

    About Graduate’s intention:
    there is more loss in doubting him and much profit in putting under light a possible dangerous businees.

    To Graduate: Is not Sheik fair enough to post your posts,
    his he not?
    Could it be that he knows something about gaining from uniting?

    Last thought on ethymology:
    Symbolo: unity
    Diavolo: division

    Gratitude


  56. Mahatma Coat (12)672: “we’re all hoping we’ll awaken next lifetime, and we all believe the Teacher to be a conscious being who can do no wrong.”

    Nope, not all of us. Absolutely not. A) you are lying because you can’t know that, and b) you seem plastic to me.
    This is why people doubt your sincerity: your posts are too
    unthinking and mono-dimensional to be real. Perhaps it is your use of English, or maybe you don’t realize what a wolves den you have wandered into on this blog.

    The Teacher has admitted to mistakes several times in my hearing – before you were around, perhaps. He said that he felt it was a mistake to conduct all-night work octaves to the point of exhausting students; he said on one occasion that the 1998 prediction might have been a mistake; he has said that when he was a young teacher he made mistakes. Only a rock can make no mistakes.

    To believe he can do no wrong is a childish presumption and needs to be questioned if you are going to make it on this path. And no, this is not my lower self attacking the higher. It’s the voice of my conscience challenging you to THINK. Aside from blind trust, it’s all you’ve got.

    That is, if you are sincere, and not a shill.


  57. on June 13, 2007 at 9:18 pm Chortle Mortal

    This blog is moving at a furious pace, but what has lingered with me for a few days is reading the posts from Tornado (whoever you are) starting with #11/313. I must say how much I enjoyed reading them, and as others have said, felt a resonance.

    In 11/390 Tornado writes: “A question to myself is: How to find the balance of contributing to the life of all these students in need and letting them have their own experience that at the end will empower them? It’s a fine line, isn’t it?”

    This relates to my own enquiry into why I have posted. Originally it was part of just coming into being, and taking an authentic position. But more importantly to leave ‘clues’ to those who are receptive – that life continues, and grows, outside of ‘the compound’. While a committed student for 22 years I was focused on the life within the school, and oblivious to burgeoning of spirituality that has come as Eastern teachings have at last emerged in this era of the airplane, and the spontaneous eruptions of Truth that have emerged in the West. Moreover, I have found there is a holding and support to be found in Sangha and the local community whether it be seen as a localized support in Grass Valley/Nevada City – or seeing it as loving caring conscious universe that has nurtured you from birth and continues to provide.

    I wonder about students caught in the ‘poverty trap’ of being on salary. Maybe this is history and does not apply any more – but I suspect not. The pattern being: an idealistic student comes to Isis to be near the teacher, goes ‘on salary’ (a subsistence allowance), becomes hooked, depletes savings, and now is stuck, The longer you stay, the more identified you become with your role and the necessity to retaining yoiur position on salary – no matter how menial it is. The longer you stay, the more your skills for ‘getting a regular job’ diminish and the more dependent you become on the occasional dispensations of largesse from Robert. (Those medical bills do need to be paid).

    So I’ll go out on a limb here and muse about (or really propose) that we start a modest foundation (yet another non-profit) from donations, to help long term students who have been on salary and want to start a new life outside of FOF.

    Money gets murky. Take it the wrong way, and a charitable impulse could be perceived as monetary inducements for people to leave – which is not the intention at all. We could get ripped off – so donations would have to be freely given without thought of really getting anything in return. One thought would be to structure payouts as short-term non-interest loans – help people get set up – then they pay back – then the money gets recycled for someone else. Actually, I don’t think we would get ripped off – students are good people.

    Maybe this is a cure for a malaise which is imaginary. Maybe this is too narrowly focused on Isis – when the Fellowship spans the globe. I haven’t much of a clue how to proceed either. But I thought I would throw this out and see if there is any resonance.

    David


  58. Hello Sheik;

    Nice to see a post from you.

    Word correction for blog readers, (Sheik perhaps you could change it for the sake of Grandma-karmic-info.)

    On ‘paragraph 12’ it should read “I would ((call)) my Grandmother, not ‘can’.

    It must be the coconut milk, Freudian slip?… No way,
    Grandma’s rule!

    _________________________

    l.t.y.a.


  59. on June 13, 2007 at 9:47 pm You-me-us-they

    Related to my previous post:

    When helpful:

    From Symbolo, we get “symbol” (pretty obvious this one),
    from Diavolo (diabolo), we get “devil”.

    To Bruce:
    I like you more and more.

    To Cyclops:
    Oh! When you apologise, you are as irresistable as a hieroglyph!

    To Unoanimo:
    Did you really read all the islamic stuff?

    Gratitude.


  60. “I was only three days off in the prediction of my crystallization, which over a period of ten years is quite good, and I consider that prediction accurate. If a depression occurs in 1984, if California falls in 1998, if Armageddon occurs in 2006, then I was correct. All of which means, I am correct regarding the other information I have been speaking about.”

    “Actually, most of what I speak about is facts.”

    Robert Burton – June 11, 1979

    By the same logic, if those predictions don’t come to pass?


  61. Hi guys, just a reminder:
    If you wish to be included in ex-members Contact List – please send the info you wish to list to
    malaec@optonline.net
    I have received lots of e-mails already, and list is getting big. I am making it in a simple Excel file, and will soon e-mail it to all who are listed.
    The intentions behind creating such a list: to help like-minded people stay connected, to locate friends, to arrange for a possible place to stay while travelling, to announce jobs, to ask for help, to invite people for dinners, concerts and other events, etc. Friendship and connections don’t have to dissappear once you quit FOF!
    Most people include their name and e-mail address, also: phone, address, years in FOF, website – whatever you feel like listing.
    In friendship,

    Janna
    malaec@optonline.net


  62. on 12 Jun 2007 at 3:56 am564 Howard Carter
    posted an extensive discussion on porn
    What is the point
    This only marginally escapes being spam and is pointless. It clearly requires time and effort that might be used more profitably to compile this information. It does remind me of Gerard’s plodding angles.

    The real amazing thing is how Robert has perverted the FOF so that many will serve as his apologests. He has so succesfully isolated himself from any outside control that he is a law unto himself.

    Tell me Siddiq when were you shown the Canon of the FOF and asked to sign them as a contract with the Church? When did you agree as an article of faith that the “Teacher” was a divine messenger who’s will was unquestionable?
    AT what point were you informed of Robert’s divine status as a reincarneted Goddes in a mans Body who sucked young mens cocks as a source of higher hydrogens.
    How many cocks have you sucked to verify the truth of this yourself or is it an item of faith? You would not justify something you have not verified would you?
    To all those that try and justify Robert’s perversion of the FOF I challange you to find 20 to 30 young men who will volunteer to have their cocks sucked to assist you in your quest for higher consciousness. If you cannot do this perhaps because it disgusts you or because you find that the young men will not “volunteer” without some payment or coersion then try to get over denying the facts.

    There is no voluntary positive sexual exchange occuring. There is no “private sex life” Robert manipulates poor niave youth’s into positions of weakness and preys apon them.There is merely an old faggot harvesting his crop of captive youth’s of what is more precious than there sperm their spirituality. This man has no shame-nor do his apologist’s. If you had any conscience you would be ashamed to justify this continued play of crime.


  63. 59

    I’m not touchin that one.


  64. on June 13, 2007 at 10:23 pm Walter Tanner

    Fellow Travelers,

    Former Fofer asks: “When did Robert claim to have crystallized as a man no5? Does anyone know? And did he ever describe that experience?”

    I have a story, probably from my entourage-time with Robert. He crystallized his higher emotional center in front of the fire on the deck at Nepenthe, Highway 1 in Big Sur. No date was given, but this was between the founding of the Fellowship and the crystallization of 1976. Think they were allowed to smoke pot then. Neat for me since I go to Esalen two or three times a year and always stop to commemorate. Esalen, BTW, was founded in the early sixties, also has a “lodge,” workers “on salary,” etc. The “system” wasn’t 4th Way but gestalt therapy and body work. Not sayin’ RB got the idea for Renaissance from Esalen, but it does pre-date the FOF.

    Also, Esalen remained an open and free thinking refuge – as founder Michael Murphy relates, “no one captured the flag.” You can read more about it in Jeffrey Kripal’s “Esalen: The Religion of No Religion,” just published.

    On the topic of crystallization, has anyone looked at Meditations on the Tarot, an anonymously penned work from a French cleric who was also an esotericist? Very interesting stuff on Gurdjieff, who the author admires, but he takes exception to the concept of “crystallization.” Believes the Gurdjieff work does give you a body that can survive death, but its just a ghost — rather one should embrace the complete freedom of the Holy Spirit, which never “crystallizes” but is always in flux.

    Interesting stuff, I’ll pull some quotes out when I get it back from the Gaelic sorceress I lent it too….

    walter.tanner@gmail.com


  65. “Burton believed that the oil company that used the advertising logo “UNION ‘76? was a sign from C Influence that he, Burton, would “crystallize into a man number six” in 1976. There was an elaborate ‘crystallization party’ in honor of the event.
    Actually Burton predicted the exact day that “lightening bolts” would crystallize him as a man number six, however, according to Burton he did not crystallize until three days later, so the party had to be postponed. Remembrances from a follower:”

    I was with Robert in Phoenix on the day he had intially predected his crytillization. I think his entourage was Thomas Easely and Peter Bishop who had driven one of the Merceds roadsters ( the gold 4 seat) from renaissence there may have been a third Anthony Peace whose wife Susan had been sent to Pheonix. I had breakfast with the group at the Biltmore and took the opportunity to get hired as a waiter. I was with him at the end of the evening and walked with him to his room. I do not remember anything else. Only Thomas and Peter would know what occured in his room. It does lead me to specualte that The whole crystallization thing was just another lie. It was a great party though. I believe I drove with Mildred Smith and others from the Pheonix center to the occasion.
    I also have many fond memories of Renaissance and although Robert did provide leadership on a larger scale he was always meddling in details. His dominance feature was then as now pretty uncontrolled. He of course presented everything as the “will of C influence”. He seemed to be under the illusion that “well it is the will of C influence” so we do not need building permits or building inspectors which I am sure created many headaches for Larry Kramer and Roger Cavanna.
    Robert was furtunate in attracting a group of excellent people to begin the development of the FOF. I doubt many wouold have tolorated his currant misuse of young men.


  66. Those who missed the spam attack do not understand that is was not based on content but volume. Posting sufficently large post’s to slow down the blog and if continued make it unuseable. This is in no way a tactic of using a reasoned arguement or even of presenting ones own opinions.


  67. Re #59 A former student– Post 564 by Howard Carter was about cults, not porn. The post on porn was credited to Siddiq, but Siddiq claims it was not his.


  68. All,

    I was unpleasantly surprised by the way Mahatma Coat was treated on the previous page. Whether or not he (she?) was real, the views expressed were precisely those espoused by sincere FoF students, eg I will awaken next lifetime, RB is a conscious being who can do no wrong, etc. It would have been interesting to hear more from him, but he was immediately dumped on by Bruce and co and appears to have been scared off.

    Bruce, Unanimo and others seem to be intent on creating a kind of alternative universe here where only views acceptable to themselves can be expressed. My impression is that these people left the FoF a while ago and have developed a warped imaginary picture of it. Don’t get me wrong – I agree that the teaching is absurd and RB is dangerous – but it seems that bloggers like myself who left the FoF recently and are still in close touch with many current FoFers don’t post here much any more because many of the posts don’t seem to have much relationship to the actual FoF as we see it.

    It would be easier to have a more balanced discussion if you guys would lighten up a bit, and maybe wait a few hours before lashing out. Are you really so sure of your own opinions that you are unable to accept that a young, naive spiritual seeker might still be taken in by the FoF teaching and that he or she might not necessarily be a complete moron?

    yrs, RN


  69. on June 13, 2007 at 11:34 pm Skeptical Optimist

    11/183 Old FOF

    At one point Robert Burton indicated that he had only three friends: Peter Bish_p, Miles and JoelF.

    Of course, Peter has passed. Miles departed the “Fellowship of Friends.” And JoelF is bloggersville.

    This sounds like fantasy, or coming from someone other than Burton. Peter was a longtime victim of Burton’s, and Miles and I were similarly used by him as good fronts and proficient prostelytizers for his project. But “friends”? No.

    11/687 Sharon

    Joel, Bruce, Exlax, LOL, many others both pro and anti FoF… you guys are doing that Ad Hominem stuff again – it’s the lazy man’s way to argue.

    Point taken, thanks. Civility is rarely a bad choice. But I don’t really think asking someone to reveal their identity is in itself an ad hominem attack.

    11/715 Sheik

    Thanks for stepping in, without the moderation the blog would probably go down from attacks such as the page 11 fiasco.
    My 2 cents: Ask Ames Gilbert to help if he’s willing.

    11/564 “Howard Carter”

    This was an excellent opportunity to see in just how many directions a “captive mind” can spin simultaneously. While errrors and misjudgments are rife throughout this post, consider two things.

    While friend “Carter” expends much energy pointing out the lack of “credentials” of those in the anti-cult party, he never makes the next logical step, to ask what “credentials” are needed to start a “new religion/cult”.

    And how about this:
    FoF: in a much longer time of existence and with a much greater pool of members and much more scrutiny placed on the organization there is no indication of any violence, past, present or future.

    How anyone, even a Fof mind-slave, can have read the posts on this blog, seen the men who have been damaged by Burton, the non-stop coercion of young men into a kind of spiritual prostitution going back to the 1970s, the breaking up of families, the bankrupting of the gullible, can make this statement is just mind boggling to me. Violence has many forms, and I view the FoF as inherently, intrinsically, and spiritually violent, from day 1. Sad.

    11/563 “Siddiq”

    I try to write when I believe I have something worthwhile to say, even if it is obvious from some (not all) reactions that it seems to irritate people like yourself.

    I actually feel sad about people such as “Siddiq” and “Howard Carter.” These are obviously intelligent, thoughtful people caught up in something they have yet to comprehend. It’s painful sometimes to remember what that felt like when I was in a similar situation, and fear played such a large role in my thought process. It’s also interesting that if these people were to actually post under their own names, the group they so fervently defend would probably toss them out within minutes. Go figure, but you have to have compassion for these people—they are me.

    Thanks for reading

    JoelF


  70. If you see how many posts Mahatma Coat made you’ll see he wasn’t dissuaded in the least, until he was asked to identify himself (or herself) to show he wasn’t just a plant (and I mean that in both ways). It seems when BS is called out the bullshitter usually disappears for a while and reappears either with the same or different name. Nobody’s chased away, as far as I can see, until they make that choice themselves. I assume Mahatma’s a grown up. He (or she) didn’t seem that fragile. In fact Mahatma seemed impenetrable to the point that I, personally, don’t think they’re who they purport to be. I think they were a shill, and I still feel that way.

    If you feel the need to protect any poster from unfairness, be at it. But don’t expect everyone to agree with your criteria.


  71. 60 Bruce

    You musta been thinkin what I was thinkin.


  72. 68

    Stop puttin that stuff in my head..leave me alone. The voices……….


  73. Walter Tanner wrote:

    “I have a story, probably from my entourage-time with Robert. He crystallized his higher emotional center in front of the fire on the deck at Nepenthe, Highway 1 in Big Sur. No date was given, but this was between the founding of the Fellowship and the crystallization of 1976.”

    Thanks Walter. Anyone have any more details? Did he discuss it in more detail with anyone?

    A former student wrote:

    “Actually Burton predicted the exact day that “lightening bolts” would crystallize him as a man number six, however, according to Burton he did not crystallize until three days later …”

    I wonder where he got the idea that “lightening bolts” would be part of the man no6 crystallization process?

    Did another man no6 advise him of that? If so, who was it? If no-one advised him, how did he know what to expect?

    formerfofer
    (1978-1992)


  74. Re: Rhino Neal #65 “I agree that the teaching is absurd and RB is dangerous – but it seems that bloggers like myself who left the FoF recently and are still in close touch with many current FoFers don’t post here much any more because many of the posts don’t seem to have much relationship to the actual FoF as we see it.”

    _____
    If most of the posts don’t seem to have much relationship to the current, then you guys should be posting more not less.
    I’m glad you haven’t been scared off. Please continue posting. We (or at least I) are truly interested in how you and others see the current situation. Don’t let Bruce scare you off. I think he truly doubted the sincerity of Mahatma Coat’s post. I also doubted it, but if you think it was possibly for real, I will give it the benefit of the doubt.


  75. Posts 67/68/69 – a few more building bricks for your imaginary blogworld: smug, self-congratulatory, dismissive of anyone who steps out of line. A bit like the FoF?


  76. When did the rumors start that “Our Teacher” robert burton had a sexual fondness for males? Prior 1977?

    When did the artificiality of manners begin? Prior 1977?

    I remember a NASA metalurgist contemplated divorcing his wife to follow an affected homosexual lover of children.

    Thank you “C” influence for my ‘play’ of less than two years.
    What a horror story I’ve heard so far.

    I didnt read that Arabic jihad many I’s, but it would be a great idea for FOF to practice inner jihad that I noticed while trying to flee the madness.

    For those who like stories: This is not FOF connected except indirectly.

    I once knew a young guy who had an amazing work ethic, and was exceptionally able. High school drop-out I found out decades later.

    He worked part-time at a very busy night club. He wasnt a bar-tender, manager, door man or barback. When I saw him he would be working the lights, adjusting and repairing.
    I knew him socially for a short while.

    During that time a local married politican who had a fondness for young girls would have the young guy set him up at table with some underagers who somehow got in.

    The nightclub finally closed and young man went to work for the politican as an administrative assistant. He was a good worker and very able. Later he became Director of the county beaches.

    The young man now old ran as a Republican for county supervision and lost.

    One day while reading the newspaper I found myself shocked. The same way when I found out in the blog about “our Teacher” robert burton.

    It seems this young man whom I hadnt seen in decades but held him in high regard as I did the FOF for two decades, was caught.

    A mother of a young girl was checking on her daughter’s chatting on the internet and became worried about a certain chatter. So she answered for her daughter.

    The chatterer made arragements for a meet. That he would be driving a certain kind of truck and that he would be wearing these kinds of clothes.

    She “hung-up” and called the cops. The F.B.I joined in the fray too. He was arrested. The pulled all the computers from his Director of Beach Services and his home. They found lots of child porn. His first response when the F.B.I. knocked on his door and explaned themselves, “I knew you were coming”

    He went to court, found guilty, and sent to prison for 17 years in a federal jail. Two years later he died of pneumonia. The article in the newspaper reporting his death said that while in jail he helped the jail ministerial office and library where it was noted that he had a good work ethic and exceptionally able.

    I bet lots of young males at FOF are exceptional in their work ethic and quite able.

    Oh, I remember my old friend giving a public apology, but I’ve forgotten the words.


  77. Hi Rhino Neal,
    Going back to some of the first pages of the blog, a few people I’ve spoken with have expressed concerns that the blog was becoming too polarized or too negative, etc. — and that it would frighten away more reasoned and moderate points of view. And others, such as yourself, have expressed the same concern right here in the blog.

    The fact that you left the Fellowship more recently is interesting to me, because one thing I’ve noticed is that many former students — as time goes on — slowly lose some of the thinking patterns that were part of the Fellowship experience. When you spend most of your life thinking (for example) that any expression of sarcasm (i.e., Bruce, Joel, me, anyone) MUST be a form of sleep, then it takes time to slowly change that idea and see it differently.

    Maybe, for example, Bruce is using sarcasm because he believes it’s one of the few ways that his message can penetrate? Or maybe he’s just being himself, having some fun, and letting it rip? In other words, “being himself” instead of living his life constantly being aware of what is acceptable use of the language, and adjusting his words to suit that, as we all have done to a greater or lesser extent in the FOF.

    As I’m reading the blog, and speaking with many former and current fof members who are on the fence, I’m amazed at how steadily my thinking is changing — i.e, the thinking habits that I was tought in the Fellowship. Words have this odd way of shaping our thinking. Using different words can open up news ways of thinking.

    But, egads, now even the term “Fellowship member” has an entirely different meaning to me. Thanks a LOT, whoever told that story about Robert’s use of the word.

    I’m not going to ask you to be less sensitive to humor and sarcasm and biting one-liners, but just a thought — Maybe your sensitivity to these posts is partly a result of several years in the Fellowship?

    Honestly, I don’t know what the answer for you might be… But for me, the answer has been “definitely yes” on several occasions. I’m surprised at much my thinking was shaped by the group — and mostly not for the better.

    2B


  78. Curious. Does anyone have information from the tenets of different diciplines such as buddhism, islam, hinduism, taoism christianity, scientology, tollelology, masonology, the elks, moose or lions club on this phenomenon so freely tossed about – “crystallization”.
    I have some vague recollection of somebody turning into a pillar of salt in the bible. It didn’t seem to be such a good thing and had something to do with living in the past?


  79. 72 Come on Rhino, I can see the steam building.


  80. 74 2b

    “Words have this odd way of shaping our thinking. Using different words can open up our thinking.”

    You think?


  81. on June 14, 2007 at 12:19 am Simple truth

    No Person sayds: How can you be absent?

    you can be absent when you are in imagination.
    imagining that you are awake.

    To say the simple truth is not an insult or an expression of negative emotions.
    sorry if yo were hurted by the simple truth.


  82. PBS recently televised a documentary about the Mormons. A woman scholar who was excommunicated from the church after arguing for parity in the role of women in the church talked about the experience of being excommunicated. She indicated that all the men on the court which excommunicated her after her hearing came up to her afterwards, shook her hands and said how much they admired her. She spoke disparagingly of their veneer of niceness while they were doing what she considered an inherently violent act, excommunicating her from her religion, community, family and way of life:

    “Excommunication is an inherently violent act.”


  83. Yesri baba
    74 2b

    “Words have this odd way of shaping our thinking. Using different words can open up our thinking.”

    You think?

    —–

    Hey, give me a break!!! (kidding)


  84. 2b (74) and Bruce (76)

    Point taken. cheers, RN


  85. 78 Simple Truth: “you can be absent when you are in imagination.”

    Depends what you mean by “you”. Your mind can drift off elsewhere, for sure. But maybe you’re not your mind. Maybe you’re precisely that which isn’t absent when “you” are “in imagination”.


  86. Veronicapoe,

    Great quote from the Mormon documentary.

    By the way, you can view the documentary online at pbs.org.

    Speaking of “moderate”, my impression of the program was that it was way too moderate — especially for a joint project by Frontline and American Experience, both of which tend to present fairly critical commentaries. They did interview some unhappy former members, as Veronicapoe mentions, but at times I thought I was watching a PR film. Hmm. Might have something to do with lots of money? You think?


  87. 78 Simple Truth: “you can be absent when you are in imagination.”
    Rhino Neal 82 said it perfectly.
    What are you? A mind image? A thought?
    What you ARE – is right here, always. Watching, aware, life itself. Mind drifts, memory blinks, thoughts and feelings come and go, imagination occur – in present awareness.
    YOU cannot be absent, ever. It would mean that there is no you at all when there is imagination! But imagination has no independent nature – it has occur to somebody, in something, right? Somebody or something must be there first to even have imagination!
    According to you there is no you most of the time, since imagination occurs very often, according to some 99 percent of time.. So you must be pretty much nonexistant, absent, not live. Just imagination floats in the air, by itself. But it can’t be so, simply because you so undeniably ARE, here, alive.
    Imagination is occuring because of you, as one of the experiences, and YOU are what is experiencing imagination (and all else for that mater.) You are not imagination, not the mind, not an imaginary image of yourself.


  88. Following from Foolofit, (11/526) good comment.

    To those that would ask “where’s the evidence?” …

    If I undertook to find such evidence, you might also point out that to initiate that line of inquiry is to elicit gossip, lies, and slander from fellow members, to involve oneself in ‘a play of crime’, to listen to the ‘lower self’, to evoke lies and misinformation from ex-members (who ungratefully speak from their ‘king of clubs’), ad nauseam. Finally if the evidence is put in plain view, habitual dissociative mechanisms will bring one back to ‘the moment’.

    To speak to that phenomena which allows so many older students who are conditioned in this way, to ‘focus only on one’s own work’ – while underwriting Robert’s activity – is an entirely different and much more lengthy subject. Any takers?

    The school has got to a point where ‘being in the moment’ necessarily includes a whole range of dissociative behavior, sometimes pathological in nature. The present is surely something much bigger than we have learned in Robert’s
    new religion.


  89. Here is another story on the Man #5 question (12/5):
    The first time I met RB was in Hawaii in January 1973. My first impression of him — head bowed, hands-folded, wearing a loose fitting, short-sleeved, large print shirt, khaki pants and those funny brown soft-leathered tie shoes he used to wear, and carrying a brown brief case by the handle– confounded me.

    Here was the great ‘the teacher’ whom Bonita (his first student and leader of new HI center) revered, and he looked to me like a door-to-door insurance salesman. An oddly apt metaphor, I think now, considering what he does.

    Anyway, at the break of the meeting he came over to me and said he wanted to show me something private. In a hushed, conspiratorial voice, he showed me his driver’s license. He told me that he only weighed 140 (or something like that) pounds in the picture, that it was taken shortly after he had been in a car accident, requiring 144 stitches. The picture was rather grim.

    He did not mind the terrible suffering though, he said, because the accident had awakened him to becoming a Man #5. He went on, in that gravely serious way he sometimes adopted about how C influence uses difficult methods to awaken us, and so forth…

    He proceeded to rub ‘the third eye’ spot on my forehead, and I recall him telling me I would soon enough learn about “their methods” because I was “definitely on the way.” I had been in the FoF only about one month at the time. I left that night (at the ripe old age of 24) both flattered and weirded out by the entire episode.

    TRAVELER: Please add ‘on the way’ to your hilarious 11/555 devil’s dictionary post. Reading it was the best laugh I have had in a long time.

    I especially liked: King of Clubs = Common Sense


  90. on June 14, 2007 at 4:10 am Was KathleenW

    Here’s a post-FoF story.

    A couple of years after I left in 1984, I read a book titled “Messages From Michael.” It was supposedly channeled. It presented a spiritual system based on the idea that each person comes into a lifetime with a set of “overleaves,” that overlay essence in order to have certain types of experiences, lessons, etc.

    Some of the overleaves were body type, center of gravity, chief feature and several other categories not used by the Fellowship that, in some ways, made it a more complete system. The overleaves were seen as tools with a purpose rather than flaws, though tools that need to be seen for what they are (subjective).

    The book was based on information that came from a small group of people in the East Bay (No. Calif.) that got together on a regular basis and supposedly channeled Michael. I was told later that at least one person in that group had a connection with the Fellowship.

    A few years later, two people who studied the material, J.P. Van Hulle and Aaron Christensen, began teaching, channeling and writing books on the subject and attracted a group of people who came to meetings, read the books, learned about their overleaves and hung out socially. Aaron had been in the Fellowship a few years earlier. (This is reasonably public information.) It presented an interesting spin on the FoF material, and I liked the people, so I hung out with them for a year or two.

    It was not a school, there were no rules or “suggestions” about behavior, no conscious beings, no teacher, no pressure to attend events or any of that. There were no fees except for private channeling sessions, and a small donation at the meetings to cover hall rental. It was all very loose. Self-remembering and presence weren’t really part of the package. It was more about self-understanding.

    I rarely heard anyone question whether the material actually came from Michael. It was just accepted and believed for the most part. Clearly the FoF stuff had been expanded into a larger system, and it seems unlikely that all of it came whole cloth from Michael, even assuming there is anything to channeling or that there is a Michael.

    Maybe it didn’t matter. If people grew and gained something from the experience of seeing themselves in a new way, then it was of some value. People weren’t being exploited, controlled or expected to support anything unethical. Discovering that you believed some pretty outrageous things can be enlightening in itself.


  91. on June 14, 2007 at 4:35 am Skeptical Optimist

    86 Rhino Neal
    Maybe you’re precisely that which isn’t absent when “you” are “in imagination”.

    and . . .

    90 Was KathleenW
    Discovering that you believed some pretty outrageous things can be enlightening in itself.

    Thank you both, truly.

    JoelF


  92. Was KathleenW #90

    Thank you for your post. You sparked a post-FOF memory that I’d like to share.

    When Miles left the FOF he attempted to start his own group. I remember that when he gave his first open meeting in the bay area, hoards of people from Renaissance drove to it, including yours truely.

    Amazingly, many of us drove in Renaissance vehicles using FOF gas to get there and back! Nobody tried to stop us from going or made a list of who went. I seriously doubt this would occur in today’s FOF, but I could be wrong.

    During the emotionally charged meeting he spoke of leaving the FOF because of his conscience. He thought that too many people were being permitted to join the school whom he felt did not have enough being to seriously under take the work. He felt these people were only being allowed to join to fill the FOF coffers with cash. He was going to be more selective in who joins his group. He charged five bucks a head for the meeting that night. I remember our group drove all the way back in silence without discussing a word of what he had said.

    Anyway, after I left the FOF later that year, I contacted Miles to inquire about his group. I learned that he was experimenting with the Michael channeling stuff. I was quite surprised that Miles had broadened his views of the fourth way in this direction. Anyway, for what it’s worth, I was left with the impression that Miles had diminished himself by relying on a ‘spiritual medium’ to do the ‘channeling’ of higher knowledge (or whatever) instead of coming from his own being. So I didn’t join his group and went another direction. Miles’ group later dwindled. So he eventually closed it down and went to college to study counseling.

    BTW, this is the story I was told on how ‘c-influence’ indicated to Robert that Miles was going to become a man number five. When Robert first saw him, Miles was wearing a V-neck sweater, with the V in gold trim, signifying the number 5 as the Roman numeral V. Later the prediction was correlated I believe in Shakespeare’s sonnet #44 with the line … “miles when thou are gone”. This is a another good example of Robert’s ‘ideas of reference’, like ‘Union 76’. Also the high tech spy plane ‘SR-71’ which flew from an airforce base near Renaissance was ‘self-remembering 1971’ or when self-remembering came to the area in 1971.


  93. Whalerider, thanks for your story, you sparked a memory here, too…

    I was working at the Autoshop on the day Miles left, I was alone when Miles came in, we greeted each other, and talked for a few moments. I tried very hard to remember myself and I can still to this day see in my mind’s eye all the wrenches I used to work on a Mercedes I was dismantling…

    The impression made on me that day by Miles in the Autoshop has remained in my memory forever. At one of the meetings Miles lead, he suggested to pick a day in the following week where one would do everything to live it as if never before–to be only and fully focused on self remembering. These suggestions, and the sincerity which he gave them with were so strong, for me, that it much helped my work–then seeing Miles was a reminder to make these efforts…

    Anyway, Miles proceeded to check and fill up his Mercedes with gas and oil, and then there was an article from the Sacramento Bee on Abraham Lincoln on the bulletin board, on the wall….it related the story of how a young girl in the South personally saw Abraham Lincoln a few days after the war (Civil War) ended and how he (A. Lincoln) stood in front of her window walking down the streets of Richmond (enemy territory a few days ago–but unafraid), paused and looked at her…the sorrow of this man was the memory that created the most special moment of her life, for her on the same level as meeting her husband and having children. (I still have this article and can post it if anyone wishes to read it).

    Anyway, Miles read it the entire article slowly, standing motionless for a very long time, intentionally, and then stood in front of me, paused, and we said good bey, very intentionally–I realized something very significant was occurring to him, that he could not talk to me about. And that was it.

    Later coming home to the Academy I learned he had left and had said goodbey to Robert. A strange quiet sadness filled Renaissance for some time, as I experienced it.

    I did not go to the Bay Area meeting. As much as I valued Miles, I felt my place was here. After his meeting, where many students went, you returned home, and life moved on.


  94. Reply to Post #60/12, #65/12 and #69/12

    You wrote ~ (Post #60/12)

    “To Unoanimo:

    Did you really read all the islamic stuff?

    Gratitude.”
    ________________________________

    Certainly: to me its only ‘right’ to give attention to where attention is not being given out… I try to use this blog ‘sight’, not as some form of TV entertainment, rather, as a study, so reading all the ‘propeller poo’ was necessary to sense what exactly it was, that was in front of me in the moment,

    I try to use everything, regardless of its obvious external form,

    there’s always a child hiding out in all that over sized semantic-wardrobe and I enjoy finding his or her feet sticking out from behind the curtain,

    I do not disturb the curtain, let the child ‘think’ I do not see them hiding…

    it’s a personal thing for everyone’s essence to hide, through anger, extreme joy,

    a multitude of forms hide us from seeing that its the space between us that holds most of the love we are desiring, thinking too much, asking allot of questions usually in order to give our answers, usually blows out the match before that space can be ignited.

    There’s an old mafia saying,

    “Your true friends are your enemies.”

    Gurdjieff knew this, particularly after one of his teachers told him.
    ____________________________

    Post #65/12

    Hello Walter:

    Thank you for the ‘spark’ ~

    Yet,

    unfortunately, such books are written under the auspices of ‘theoretical, wanna be gurus’ (that’s my opinion BTW).

    You wrote ~

    “Believes the Gurdjieff work does give you a body that can survive death, but its just a ghost — rather one should embrace the complete freedom of the Holy Spirit, which never “crystallizes” but is always in flux.”

    To me, again, its one of those ‘vanity feature against an imaginary ‘other’,

    surely Rumi fans know about the line,

    “Someday I will even drop these, my angel wings.”

    To me, regardless of what you call the astral body, if its formation and arrival is built through conscious will and intentional suffering then it cannot share the triad of ‘ghosts’,

    you can read about ‘ghosts’ in Rodney Collin’s book, “The Theory of Celestial Influence.” Which is far from Gurdjieff’s idea of an astral body… So comparing the two is wholly ‘wrong work of all centers, including the higher’.

    To me, it is part of this blog’s role, again, as I see it, to balance out formatory points of view, such as this one quoted from your post above;

    the spirit within man’s (and woman’s) yearning has lived far too long under the prescription of ‘this and that’, without any direct experience of the space in between extremes, or for that matter, of even what they are speaking about.

    Most of the spiritual world is at the stage of ‘aspiration’ right now, there’s still, I estimate, about 16 trillion tons of ‘wishful thinking’ to recycle…

    so, we’ve gotta start somewhere or at least continue, since, after all, it would be wishful thinking on my part to assume we’re starting anything for the first time.

    Whenever I see the word ‘should’, I simply close the book;
    I must move on, beyond the willfulness and those who have no direct experience with such worlds as they claim to be delegates ‘of’ or even ‘from’; what foolishness we buzz, when caught in our own webs… (that saying is not for you).

    It’s an emotional subject for me ~

    Anyone who has ever even vaguely been present to the inner beingness of a ghost would only have an absolute and holy wish for their continued possibilities at becoming themselves, without accounts, crystallized attitudes, identifications with physical proximities and ‘what’ history has made them by the passing of physical time, not always of their own intentional ‘doing’; to not hold so tightly their reoccurring wishes, sentimental desires, the traumas and ultra-insane-blacker than black hatred they carry in themselves for the circumstances surrounding their physical deaths, etc…

    These beings do not need the vibratory negatives of ‘should’, they need direct, conscious, intelligent consideration, simple, non-intellectual attention, when called for that is. Not all ghosts are negative BTW.

    And on the subject of ghost vs holy spirit; this cannot exist, they are one and two of the same three, separating the two from the (for lack of a better word) sequence of evolution, would be like removing a part of the brain so to ‘structurally, in the moment’ discount the primordial ‘root’ of man’s brain so to spite his contemporary ‘divide’.

    I love it! To sit down with these kinds of people is usually a hoot, particularly the really stoic ones, usually centered in the King of Clubs or Diamonds, not that I am labeling, yet it assists to know the difference between ‘armoring’ and ‘presence’, thinking hard and hardly being what thinking only wishes for in the end, to be that which is bent and persuaded to settle for the alphabet as its fingerprints, its record of movement through this world of vocal cords and cerebellums.

    Be careful Walter, your a healthy solar type who most surely enjoys a good dose of ‘I wanna believe’, just dig deeper, get as much information on all fronts, even if you have to travel to India and meet with high level Masts, who deal with these ‘worlds’ every day or at least read books that are ‘straight from the horses mouth’, not the guy whose feeding them.

    Remember, the word ‘poo’ is just one ‘l’ away from being something people enjoy swimming around in on hot summer days.

    ____________________________

    Reply to Post #69/12

    Hello Rhino Neal ~

    You wrote ~

    “Bruce, Unanimo and others seem to be intent on creating a kind of alternative universe here where only views acceptable to themselves can be expressed. My impression is that these people left the FoF a while ago and have developed a warped imaginary picture of it.”
    _____________________________

    Well, Rhino Neal, this is an “alternative universe”, its called cyberspace… So, that’s pretty moot and none of our doing.

    And yes, I must admit (with tongue in cheek) that I do only express views acceptable to myself, otherwise such an advanced degree of schizophrenia would leave me sitting in some corner tearing the daily newspaper into little, itty- bitty bits, reading E.E. Cummings. An aim far too early, I suspect, for my age and physical condition, yet, you never know what bolt is going to rattle loose next.

    I recall the beautiful wife of L. Diaz, one day I met her at the post office, smiling, absolutely radiant, like a fruit tree after a rainstorm, just beautiful, the next day she’s having lunch and dies right there, on the now, of a brain clot:

    do we have the greatest level of scale and relativity possible when going by ‘my impression’? I do not wonder that we do not.

    This blog site is not ‘Vanity Fair’, but, hey, if the price is right I can spin something for you and put your name on it, something that would bring back fond memories for some Fellowship of Friends authors and editors, just be sure to drop the fee into the Sheik’s Paypal account, he’ll let me know how much to spin and which way to scratch the rap.

    Yes, it is certainly your ‘impression’;

    whoever said I left,
    whoever said I was in or out,
    or in, but not out, for certain ‘Ninja reasons’?

    Was not ‘verify’ in your first perspective meeting? Where have the good ole days gone, when a bolt of fabric was worth more than one suit that fits Robert Burton?

    Just to settle your suspicions, I am as up to date with the Fellowship of Friends as the editors of “Letters from The Teacher”…

    Do you really think I would crawl way out here on this kind of limb without having fallen enough times to learn to hang out in shorter trees?

    I prefer stealthy bonsai myself.

    So, my friend, next time you go buying Belgium chocolate in the only little country store that carries such in a 500 mile radius, just remember, I’ve got yo back bro,

    I’ll be that inconspicuous one with the samurai sword in near the far-right-back of the pet food section, you know the spot, in between the ice maker and the unisex bathroom. Just chillin, if you know what I mean.

    And, yes, I love you regardless of your ongoing addiction to ‘your impressions’.

    ____________________________

    P.S. Bruce, thanks for not touching my Grandmother.

    ____________________________

    Love to you all.


  95. on June 14, 2007 at 6:59 am for the Best_1

    Hello friends,
    I would just like to share my recent reading with you:

    “What is supremely important is to be free from contradictions : the goal and the way must not be on different levels; life and light must not quarrel; behaviour must not betray belief. Call it honesty, integrity, wholeness; you must not go back, undo, uproot, abandon the conquered ground. Tenacity of purpose and honesty in pursuit will bring you to your goal.”
    Talks with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

    Aline


  96. Hello Comrades.
    58 David. sounds like a good idea.
    88 No person. Think of it as a cup. Its not allways got fluid in it.
    91 Was Kathleen W. The Michael Teachings about types are taken much further than in the Fellowship, the fellowship teaches a watered down version. I am inteested to know where this teaching originates if it isnt channneled as they purport, which ive always been a little sceptical about despite having strange personal experiences on the death of friends and family and reading Budaliget 1943-4 which i recommend to anyone.
    As we know the Fellowship has their own channeler Pythoness.
    95. Unoanimo. Thanks for sharing. no kidding. The story of L Diaz’s wife sticks strongly. But enjoyed it all.
    96 Aline. Synchronicity. before starting to read today the “I” to share another “I” by either mr G or mr O, which is that ” buffers are a means by which a man can overcome contradictions in himself ” or ” buffers are a means by which a man can always be in the right” were strongly with me, your Quote is inspiring thanks.
    I leave you all with another quote. There have been many quotes expressed but none have the mass of this quote which comes from the summit of scale. ” Im pink, therefore im spam” or ” i link therefore im spam”.
    best wishes think good thoughts Cyclops.


  97. Roommate #94: I would like to read that story about A. Lincoln and the little girl.

    I remember Miles Barth a little bit. He photograph me as being centered in the Jack of Clubs.

    Another time is a little vague, but I was riding in a two seat convertible. All I remember to this day clearly is he asked me something personal . Part of my answer to him was that it was “squishy”. I was about two days out of the hospital recovering from an anual fistula. At discharge the hospital told me to not to walk. My expected ride did not show so I walked about four miles. After that I was determined not to walk again no matter what heavenly being was knocking at my door. I think Miles came as a result of that need for a ride.

    Now and then I use to tell myself that “C” influence gave me that anual fistula because I was a complete ass-hole. A photograph of myself.


  98. Hello Comrades.
    58 David. sounds like a good idea.
    88 No person. Think of it as a cup. Its not allways got fluid in it.
    91 Was Kathleen W. The Michael Teachings about types are taken much further than in the Fellowship, the fellowship teaches a watered down version. I am inteested to know where this teaching originates if it isnt channneled as they purport, which ive always been a little sceptical about despite having strange personal experiences on the death of friends and family and reading Budaliget 1943-4 which i recommend to anyone.
    As we know the Fellowship has their own channeler Pythoness.
    95. Unoanimo. Thanks for sharing. no kidding. The story of L Diaz’s wife sticks strongly. But enjoyed it all.
    96 Aline. Synchronicity. before starting to read today the “I” to share another “I” by either mr G or mr O, which is that ” buffers are a means by which a man can overcome contradictions in himself ” or ” buffers are a means by which a man can always be in the right” were strongly with me, your Quote is inspiring thanks.
    I leave you all with another quote. There have been many quotes expressed but none have the mass of this quote which comes from the summit of scale. ” Im pink, therefore im spam” or ” i link therefore im spam”.
    best wishes think good thoughts Cyclops.


  99. on June 14, 2007 at 1:29 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    “To me, regardless of what you call the astral body, if its formation and arrival is built through conscious will and intentional suffering then it cannot share the triad of ‘ghosts’”

    This to me is straight from the FOF thinking. Even children have out of body experiences. And most people that have meditated have them too. It doesn’t take intentional suffering or conscious will. It just happens when nothing else is happening and the mind quiets itself long enough to take off. No need to pay for this.


  100. on June 14, 2007 at 1:30 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    Sorry, that last comment was in reference to #95 unoanimo


  101. on June 14, 2007 at 2:13 pm Veronicapoe

    “In particular, if he [Robert Earl Burton] knows what he is doing and we don’t, we have no basis for judging or doubting him. Instead, we simply have to trust him, as a child trusts his parents, or dog trusts its master. If he asks us to do things which seem to have no connection to awakening–or even to be ‘wrong’–we have no choice but
    to do them anyway.”

    Girard Haven, Page 576, Creating A “Soul”:

    “Loyalty not only in deed, but in character is demanded of you. Loyalty of character often demands no less heroic virtue than does loyalty in deed. Loyalty in character is unbreakable loyalty, a loyalty that knows no ifs or buts, that knows no weakening, Loyalty in character means absolute obedience that does not question the results of the order nor its reasons, but rather obeys for the sake of obedience itself. Such obedience is an expression of heroic character when following the order leads to personal disadvantage or seems even to contradict one’s personal convictions.

    Rudolf Hess, The Oath to Adolf Hitler – 2/25/34


  102. on June 14, 2007 at 3:46 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    Years ago a friend of mine suggested the FOF ideas were very similar to what he had read in Mein Kampf and it upset him that we were involved in such a thing. Hmmm.


  103. TO: Cyclops, wasKathleenW
    RE: Messages from Michael

    After Yorgos left the FOF in 1972 or 73, during the “first play of crime”, several splinter groups formed. One of them became the “Messages from Michael” group. I know this for fact, because these folks — including many FOFers, and others never associated with FOF — often met at my parents’ home. Over several years, I attended three “sessions” — via ouiji board.

    Sarah, the party pythonness — channeler — was highly educated, with a Ph.D. in classical studies. She worked as the empressaria for the (now defunct) Oakland Symphony, and was a former FOF member. I had grave doubts about Sarah’s honesty. She later confessed (under pressure from another self-appointed 4th-way guru) that the sentences she wrote on the ouiji board came first through her head.

    Anyway, at my first session, Sarah suggested I ask silent questions, to which I got generalized answers. She then recommended I ask myself a question and channel the answer (without the board). I had good advice for myself.

    We are legion.

    — KathrynF


  104. on June 14, 2007 at 4:02 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    Here’s a nice quote from Esther Hicks:

    “Resistance is about believing that you are vulnerable or susceptible to something not wanted and holding a stance of protection, which only holds you in a place of not letting in the well being that would be there otherwise.”


  105. Unoanimo: “Just to settle your suspicions, I am as up to date with the Fellowship of Friends as the editors of “Letters from The Teacher”…

    OK, point taken, and I’ll look out for a samurai next time I’m in the OH store. But the main point I was trying to make is that I don’t understand why you felt that Mahatma Coat, regardless of his/her reality, was not a accurate representation of some of the more fervent, naive current FoFers. They’re not all moronic devil-worshippers.


  106. Wake up little Suzy
    Your post reminds me of saying from ‘ole Ben Franklin, “God heals, the doctor takes the fee.”

    Unanimo #95

    “To me, it is part of this blog’s role, again, as I see it, to balance out formatory points of view, such as this one quoted from your post above”

    Aren’t you really saying that you’d best serve the blog (us) by casting your role as offering angles ‘in the interest of balance’ as you have gratefully offered to me? It’s nice to see your feet showing below the curtain, my friend! Christ apparently showed us that the highest we can do for each other is to anoint and sooth each other’s tired feet with oil…but did he keep his mouth shut or throw in a few ‘angles’ during the process to soften the effect yet create lasting memory?

    BTW you take the cake! Duh! I finally got that the reason that some of your posts irked me so much was that you are the master of (intentional) non-formatory writing! I find myself having to ‘defocus’ my intellect to grasp your meaning, not unlike those ‘magic eye’ pictures that look like a bunch of squiggly lines until you look at them that certain ‘way’ and they become 3-D and jump out at you. Those things are hit or miss for me. Sometimes I can see the picture, sometimes not. Such is life.

    When you sit down to design a road, of which the purpose is to travel upon to get from here to there and hither and yon. Do you plot it a straight line from point A to B to save time and resources, or do you plot it as a curvy line to give the traveler more time to digest the surroundings on the drive? I guess it just depends on the aim.

    ************

    You know, with all the recent talk about imagination, I’d like to make a pitch for ‘creative imagination’ as intentional use of the imagination or even right work of the sex center. There is no imagination center, right? Imagination is a process. Energy overflows from the sex center as the source of our creation and creativity. The sex center is great for generating an excess amount of energy, it bubbles over each springtime thankfully, otherwise how could life on this planet survive?

    For those of you who have read the entire blog, (made the payment, that is) remember the poster many moons ago who was an artist and commented that they depended upon theirs to make a living? Imagination can be harnessed, focused and used as a tool.

    Woe to the person who attempts to remain ‘present’ 24/7 and not ever use their imagination! You run the risk of being subjected to and manipulated by the perverted imagination of others.

    Personally, I use mine to imagine positive outcomes of my actions, and guess what, it helps. Using your imagination in this way helps rally the ‘lower centers’ to the cause…everyone watching the same movie, so to speak. If you think you think you are not a ‘visual’ person, you can learn to be one. You do it each night in your dreams.


  107. wake up little suzy wake up 102
    Years ago a friend of mine suggested the FOF ideas were very similar to what he had read in Mein Kampf and it upset him that we were involved in such a thing. Hmmm.

    +++++++++++++++++
    +++++++++++++++++

    When current FOF students read things like the above statement on this blog, the extreme product of one-sided thinking, it will convince them that if you “leave the school” you will be forced to lose your mind. Aimless, exaggerating reassurances that what we once loved and now hate was in fact as bad as Nazism are counter-productive to any useful outcome on any scale relative to what this effort is hoping to accomplish. No one thinking about leaving a run-of-the-mill dictatorial cult where the supreme leader of a few thousand mildly distorted citizens satisfies his every selfish whim is going to come to the conclusion that they are hip deep in a genocidal movement and such a suggestion is going to convince them that compared to things that happen in “life” where they are now is not all that hard to put up with. Remember back when we were there, to most of us it was always happening to someone else and was not our business. The majority that pay the bills for the FOF have no real direct contact with Burton’s maniacal command over people and do not believe or understand how some of their Fellows are suffering. When someone compares a midlevel spiritual criminal and his distortion of the Fourth Way to a real headliner monster it dilutes any realistic perception of corruption those in the FOF might come to understand.

    Avoid unnecessary talk, speak realistically to the aim.


  108. Veronicapoe, thanks for your post!
    “If he asks us to do things which seem to have no connection to awakening–or even to be ‘wrong’–we have no choice but
    to do them anyway.”
    But when you get physically, emotionally or financially hurt by these things – it’s your problem, not your teacher’s. You’re on your own and he doesn’t care about your problems.
    Most things he asks students are NOT connected to anyone’s awakening – they are connected to Robert’s personal greed and power.
    Girard said it – just obey. I also heard quite a few devotees say pretty much the same. Don’t think, don’t question – just do what he asked from you, just follow the Teacher.
    With this obedience mentality – when do you stop? When do you start actually THINKING for yourself? When do you open your eyes?
    In Jonestown they trusted their leader till the very end. He finally ordered them to commit suicide and they did. And it was a very, very bad end for devotees.
    I wonder if Girard and Co would take his life (or lives of others) if that’s what his Teacher wants?…
    “we have no choice but to do it anyway.”


  109. on June 14, 2007 at 4:37 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    106 Graduates

    I have never read Mein Kampf. I just relayed an experience I had. That was all. Maybe there are things in there that are similar. Have you read it?

    I was associating my thought from the previous post by Veronicapoe about a quote that was similar to Girards.

    Sounds like you are the one doing the resisting not me. Please see my previous post on resistance.


  110. C. Mortal You said:

    “I wonder about students caught in the ‘poverty trap’ of being on salary. Maybe this is history and does not apply any more – but I suspect not. The pattern being: an idealistic student comes to Isis to be near the teacher, goes ‘on salary’ (a subsistence allowance), becomes hooked, depletes savings, and now is stuck, The longer you stay, the more identified you become with your role and the necessity to retaining your position on salary – no matter how menial it is. The longer you stay, the more your skills for ‘getting a regular job’ diminish and the more dependent you become on the occasional dispensations of largesse from Robert. (Those medical bills do need to be paid).”

    Hi C. Mortal,
    the above used to be so true in my times. (15 years ago or so)
    Many people salaried people used to live in pretty bad places as well and wonder if RB had any idea what kind of sacrifices his students were making.
    With the meager salary, renting a place and paying the bills,the money went all there hardly covering basic expenses. We were often forced to look at a second job, hauling brushes for richer property owners or whatever we could do at the time.
    I suffered constant anxiety and cannot believe I was so frozen in place and did not move on sooner.
    I had spouse and child and was also in training with hope I would eventually make some regular money, this very fact kept me there I think.
    My huge efforts came to a halt with a serious health crisis.
    My body with profound illness gave me a new direction.
    I felt that being in the fof would make me deteriorate fast, I saw people who passed away before me having been elevated to hero or heroine status.
    I did not like at all that kind of play and started looking at alternatives…
    Illness became my guide and teacher…I did not want to become a glorified dead person!
    Obviously I had no health insurance, who could afford such thing…this very fact shaped my future, in order to have medical assistance from the county or the state you have to be under the poverty level and god forbid when your medical bills are bigger than your income, it is best to stay under the poverty limit so that one can continue “enjoy” the benefits. Better than nothing anyway!
    This happened a long time ago and I can tell it took forever to be able to stand on my own feet financially.
    Last night I was joking with my spouse the FOF should refund members for every year they were on salary!


  111. Greetings, I am an artist (posted a while back) and just thought I’d tell you about a painting I am working on today. I started it yesterday and it will have an area of wall that is actually a mess of words – blog words. So I went thru most pages of this blog and tried to get snippets of the bloggers here. No real names, no direct mention of the fof, no sex accusations – just fragments. If WE were to stare at the wall in the painting, it would all come back to us…”entourage” is a loaded word here, but without the blog experience it is less provocative. There are many “love to you all”s and “Thanks to the noble Sheik” “hello my dear friend” “P.S. the moon is made of green cheese” and the inventive blog names. “Good luck to all on this 10th page!” “Hey, Sparky, sounds like you’ve been hitting the juice yourself” “Who gave you permission to post?” “you don’t know WTF you are talking about” “I think that it’s necessary to keep posts like that undeleted.“ “ You were counting with formatory mind – dummy!” “A fascinating idea occurred to me while reading the blog today. It seems this site has, in a sense, become a macrocosm of the human mind with its’ complexity GOOD LUCK.”

    I’ll title the painting “Jungle”. The words fight and love and dissolve into a texture – hardly noticeable. There will be a wall (blog wall) which opens onto a landscape – other elements too. I think creative imagination connects.

    Thanks to all! Kat


  112. on June 14, 2007 at 4:57 pm formerfofer

    SandraC wrote:

    “Here is another story on the Man #5 question (12/5):
    The first time I met RB was in Hawaii in January 1973 …

    Anyway, at the break of the meeting he came over to me and said he wanted to show me something private. In a hushed, conspiratorial voice, he showed me his driver’s license. He told me that he only weighed 140 (or something like that) pounds in the picture, that it was taken shortly after he had been in a car accident, requiring 144 stitches. The picture was rather grim.

    He did not mind the terrible suffering though, he said, because the accident had awakened him to becoming a Man #5.”

    If he had such a serious accident after he started the FoF, I would imagine some of the earliest students would remember that and perhaps recall visiting him in hospital or helping him with his recovery.

    Bonita (1st student) who wrote her history of the Fof from Jan 1 1970 to Dec 1973 never mentioned it, so when did this accident happen I wonder? Can anyone shed any further light on this?

    formerfofer
    (1978-1992)


  113. on June 14, 2007 at 5:11 pm Veronicapoe

    For those interested, “Fellowship of Friends Timeline, January 1970 – January 1974” is now online:

    http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_608

    Visit Veronicapoe’s bookmarks:
    http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Veronicapoe


  114. Grads 106,

    To me, the comparison to Nazi Germany is mostly about the use of the language, the control of information, and the group-think of the populace. No one is suggesting that Robert will be invading Poland any time soon or embarking on a campaign of genocide — uh, to my knowledge.

    Any chance your negative response to such comparisons is a result of the same group think? i.e., Thou shalt keep your views “moderate” (using my definition of the word “moderate” of course.)

    Really, think about it. This is what keeps the status quo in the Fellowship — the discouragement of such comparisons. The discouragement of what are called “extreme” opinions. It’s deemed negativity, false personality, and so on.

    This is true whether it’s a comparison to G. W. Bush or a comparison to Goebel. Really, pause for a moment and tell me honestly… Are these comparisons really that far-fetched?


  115. on June 14, 2007 at 5:26 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    111 2b

    Thanks! That’s probably what my friend was referring to. I appreciate continuation of the discussion. I am not that well versed in these things.


  116. on June 14, 2007 at 5:29 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    #112 One more last thought on my last post: At the time my friend referred to Mein Kampf, I was in the Fellowship and not about to ask him what he meant by that. I thought he was over-reacting. Hmm.


  117. The dynamics of “group think” are the same whether it’s a mini-cult (FOF) or a maxi-cult (nazi regime). It’s just a different scale. The ultimate outcome/ result of the group think is one factor that differentiates the scale of the crime.


  118. 2b
    Grads 106,

    To me, the comparison to Nazi Germany is mostly about the use of the language, the control of information, and the group-think of the populace. No one is suggesting that Robert will be invading Poland any time soon or embarking on a campaign of genocide — uh, to my knowledge.

    Any chance your negative response to such comparisons is a result of the same group think? i.e., Thou shalt keep your views “moderate” (using my definition of the word “moderate” of course.)

    Really, think about it. This is what keeps the status quo in the Fellowship — the discouragement of such comparisons. The discouragement of what are called “extreme” opinions. It’s deemed negativity, false personality, and so on.

    ***************
    ***************

    Make whatever comparisons you like, enjoy your freedom, take it to the extreme: “Uh, once my friend looked at my book for ten minutes and said that the Fourth Way was something like Hitler (pregnant silence),” indulge yourself to the ninth-degree, but don’t expect that a single wavering Fellowship member will listen to a word you say. By all means deprogram yourself by going all the way into the far-side-of-opposites, but forget about the aim to communicate intelligence to those still caught in the cult. I’m assuming that there is a better aim behind all this talk than just venting pent up frustration for having believed the unbelievable.

    The freedom to speak does not guarantee the liberty to think.

    In my perception of what is what, for what it might be worth to anyone, many of the ex-members are no more enlightened than the remaining members, they have simply walked over to the other side of their mind. If you really imagine that there is no group-think going on here, on the magically liberated outside of the FOF, then you are still a cult member.


  119. Wake up little suzy wake up #103: The quote by Hicks isnt that describing the horror a Lunar goes through?

    Vera.Mente #109: “I suffered constant anxiety and cannot believe I was so frozen in place and did not move on sooner”

    Sounds Lunar also. It’s a horror while you are going through it.

    I was told in Pacific Palisades not to go to San Francisco because of the employment situation. Jobs were hard to get.
    And, the people giving me the advise were on to me.

    While in San Francisco I would arise with the best of them, catch a bus to Market and Powell and stay. And stay and stay.

    I was enthralled by that intersection. Now and then but not often I would go to a restaurant and look for a job in the San Francisco Chronical. Then back to that intersection.

    One day I was sitting on a bench near-by when a homeless man (my future) stopped and sat down. His clothes were oily, his bare feet were bleeding and he seemed tired.

    He asked me what I was up to. Most of the time I wore a suit looking for work. I told him I was supposed to be looking for a job but was afraid to talk to people. He said, “well, you’re talking to me”.

    In another city Richard Fazio was alone in a teaching center ironing his clothes when I came in after “looking for job” . He inquired and I said,” no luck”. He then suggested that I walk around the neighborhood asking to clean windows. My excuse was that I had nothing to clean with.

    He propped up his iron walk away and in a few minutes came back with a bucket, rags, window cleaners and a squee-gee.
    He said, “all you need is water”. Yes, indeed, frozen in my tracks.

    I guess I wasnt FOF material but I sure did like what I saw. And Vera.Mente , I too have experience with not being able to pay the doctors. It’s a horrible feeling. A clerk told me once after I confessed about my ‘shame’ that it was ok because the federal government gives them money so that she can receive her paycheck. It still wasnt too much relief but I accepted it.


  120. 115

    “By all means deprogram yourself by going all the way into the far-side-of-opposites, but forget about the aim to communicate intelligence to those still caught in the cult.”

    That’s called a “straw man” argument.

    “The freedom to speak does not guarantee the liberty to think.”

    That’s just absurd, and again, a straw man.

    “If you really imagine that there is no group-think going on here, on the magically liberated outside of the FOF, then you are still a cult member.”

    Are we reading the same blog. I find a remarkably diverse spectrum of opinions and being. Did you find that to exist in the FOF?


  121. Bruce 117

    Point one: “Strawman”

    Are we reading the same blog. I find a remarkably diverse spectrum of opinions and being. Did you find that to exist in the FOF?

    **************
    **************

    On point one: cut the logic-babble. Your mind games don’t work on me, Jeti. To use the word “strawman” as a point of argument is a “strawman.” The fallacy in trying to out-reason an emotional perception with an intellectual construct is that the emotions exist in an entirely higher dimension than the feeble reasoning of the intellectual calculator.

    Next:

    Well, let’s see, now that I think about it, no…yes, everyone in the Fellowship had the same opinion and always spoke the same words. They were all exactly the same, like, uh, the people at work. Everyone always pretended to have the same opinion and same positive attitude toward the ideas of the boss just like at any corporate business. I was so bored for all those years because talking to you was the same as talking to me.

    Is your memory really so pathetically one-dimensional that it seemed to you that everyone was of a single mind in the Fellowship? You lie even to yourself. Everyone I met was entirely different than everyone else and many of them were highly critical of the Fellowship. There were some dumb church-like lackluster people, but more were bright as hell and about as under-the-thumb as gypsies.


  122. Point one:

    To take something that’s vaguely connected to the main point and extend that to an absurd conclusion is a straw man.

    point two:

    No, not everyone was of the same mind, but most kept to the party line externally (like the rank and file German citizenry who stodd by with their mouths closed) eg: group think (or maybe group act is more accurate). Those who chose to express other than the party line, well we know what occurred in many cases.

    Your “emotional perception” is exactly that. The same that brought you into the FOF. and the same that has you doing your quasi-ex-student-defender of the common man bull shit.


  123. Bruce 119

    “…common man bull shit.”

    This is an emotional appeal, though a rather ineffective primitive one.


  124. on June 14, 2007 at 8:04 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    Arthur: From my observation of resistance it goes on most of the time for everyone, whether they are aware of it or not, and takes many forms.


  125. on June 14, 2007 at 8:09 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    Graduates seems to be doing a lot of resisting today.


  126. Maybe I was referring to the extreme form on the verge of lunacy.

    Thank you and I appreciate your response.


  127. wake up little suzy wake up 122

    Graduates seems to be doing a lot of resisting today.

    **********

    Honey, I resist from the minute I open my eyes all day, everyday.


  128. I’m not going to get into a semantic argument. People arrive at their own conclusions.


  129. “Honey”?

    Suzy, I’m sure he couldn’t have meant that in a patronizing way, because that might mean he’s a schmuck, and we all know he’s an honorable man.


  130. on June 14, 2007 at 8:24 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    A little more on resistance: From my personal observation, resistance keeps me out of touch with my intuitive brain, or my nature, which knows what to do and how to act in most situations.


  131. on June 14, 2007 at 8:33 pm Kid Shelleen

    Re: post 115 by Graduates

    “…don’t expect that a single wavering Fellowship member will listen to a word you say. By all means deprogram yourself by going all the way into the far-side-of-opposites, but forget about the aim to communicate intelligence to those still caught in the cult.”

    I’ve been here from close to the beginning (though not recently), and I’ve never thought of de-programming as the aim of this blog. Maybe we can shed some light in a few dark corners, provide the cautionary tale, but I don’t believe we can change any minds. Leaving the fellowship of friends after fifteen years happened from the inside out for me, not the other way ’round. I suspect it works that way for others more often than not.

    I think back to a 105 degree day in August of ’96 or ’97. I was still a member and my wife (lifeperson!!) and I were staying at the Mountain Seasons B&B. An ex-member, Max, and his fiance were also staying there. They were in town for an exfof get together. We struck up a conversation at breakfast and then spent the next four hours discussing the fellowship. He presented me with all of the logical, considered arguments presented here. Did I hear any of them? Were all my rationalizations firmly in place?

    Anything I’ve posted here has been purely to tell my story; because in the end I think that’s all we are – our own individual stories. There’s no objective truth. There’s no consciousness yardstick by which to measure our few precious moments on this planet.

    I guess you could say I’ve walked over to the other side of my mind and found the view to be just fine.


  132. In relation to post # 58 Chortle Mortal

    What you describe is called a Credit Union and any group is able to form one. It is like having ones own bank. If the FOF and Robert was not so geared to takingthe FOF would have had one as well as medical coverage for both employee’s and students who wished to participate. These are services that many groups and Churches offer members.

    It is not an accident that Robert chose the legal form of a religion. He could have chosen to have the FOF as a co-op but then the members would have been owners and he could not take anything he wanted and force out those who had invested years in working for the school with less than nothing (Like Stella and others).

    If there is a conscious plan in Robert’s actions in forming the FOF it is to form a pyramid scheme in which as a legal religion he is isolated from prosecution. The idea of a doomsday cult is certainly not New. One weakness apparent in his scheme is that if the Canon’s are real and accurate and were not shown to and approved by each member but kept as a secret of the operating group than the FOF presentation of the group as a school is fraud. Their own web site is proof as there is no disclosure of the goup as an actual religion in which the divinity of Robert Burton is accepted as a condition for membership and it is not stated that failure to accept or question this is cause to remove a member. That is why a membert could sue and get their payments back.
    Fraud is also a crime and Jerry Brown is now state attorney general, He might be interested because for him this is a win-win, it cost’s him nothing and he might get good press.
    . This means it may be possible to have the government take Robert to court. I personally would very much like to see him address a Jury of normal citizens and explain the sacred ritual required to maintain his godly status I.E.. Oral sex with numbers of young men.


  133. on June 14, 2007 at 9:17 pm Across the River

    Dear Old Fish in the Sea, re post 2/13,

    The maturity and simple wisdom of your post was so refreshing! Thank you. One of the few posts here without a tinge of hysteria – maybe your gentle words will reach through to guide one of those fence-sitters.

    Dear Bruce,

    Your posts are hands down the funniest from the peanut gallery and it’s a nice break to LOL – thanks for your running commentaries!

    Appreciating you all…..


  134. Dear Arthur
    I spent many hours sitting at the Bart station at Powell and Market in 1978-79. Not because I did not have a job but because I did. I worked as a waiter and I could not go home to the Kensignton house between lunch and dinner because it took too long.
    I had tried going to a Turkish Bath and the YMCA but they were unpleasant for me due to the abundant of aggressive Homosexual activity. As a former ranch employee I had little except clothes when I arrived in the Bay Area. I married a student named Jeanna Black who had moved from Hawaii. It was very important for me to work at a Union restaurant when she became pregnant because they had health insurance.
    It does not seem likely that we were there at the same time as I knew most Bay Area student at least by sight.


  135. To Wow and Question

    If you are out there. Sorry for lashing out the other night. I must have nibbled a bit too much from the shrinky side of the ‘shroom.
    We are all brothers and sisters in this hell family, at least it seems that way sometimes. I was naughty and got a spanking.


  136. lovers.
    All truth passes through three stages.
    First it is ridiculed.
    Second it is violentlly opposed.
    Third it is accepted as being self evident.
    Shopenhauer.

    First they ignore you.
    Then they ridicule you.
    then they fight you.
    Then you win.
    Maha Atma Gandhi.
    Maha as im sure you know means Great as in Maha Bharata.
    Atma or Atman means soul.
    Great minds think alike.
    Bismila al rahman al rahim. Cyclops.


  137. Regarding “group think” and what was going on psychologically in Nazi Germany, and on a minor scale the Fellowship…..

    One of the defining works on this topic in my estimation is Erich Fromm’s “Escape from Freedom” first published in 1941. I read it before meeting the school and reread many years later when I was going through the long process of leaving the Fellowship. Fromm describes the group think phemomenum that occurs when security and safety are threatened. His book is about the people of Germany published at the start of the war. Fromm was born in Germany in 1900 and emigrated in 1932. His insight is worth the read.

    In the psychological terms of his day he pretty well describes the roll of “feminine dominance” and the strength of the “instictive center” in the decision making process. In a nutshell he says that buying into a vision of security and certainty comes at a pretty high price.

    I put this book along side of the “Guru Papers” and Anthony Storr’s “Feet of Clay” when it comes to getting a grip on cults and group think.

    Ralph H


  138. Reply to Posts #94, #99, #104, 107, 109/12

    I’ll keep this bonsai.

    Dear ‘Roommate’ ~ (Post #92/12)

    Yes, any direct historical observations of Lincoln that will take us outside the box of his ‘role’ would be great! A description of a picture is also worth a thousand words. Thank you for the offering, its the gestures, yes?
    ________________________

    Dear Vera.mente ~ (Post #109/12)

    Thank you for that post; it reminds me so much of the incredible ‘dark subtle-ness’ of the movie “The Taming of the Shrew”, where the inner child is momentarily transformed in order to actualize the winning of a bet worth one dollar.

    I have walked beside many single women who had been ‘left behind’, pregnant, by the ‘gotta be free’ escapades of Robert’s boys, (not saying that was your play) yet, this is automatic masculine nature as well, its certainly not an aspect of a cult or of a ‘harem psychology’,

    yet, regardless of our desires not to expect anything other than the probabilities of the moment, common sense seems to have turned subjective in these times in regards to certain ‘expectation-detectors & measuring devices’,

    coming from a sorta pithy background of study concerning spiritual people, teachers, schools, etc., the ‘enlightened code of ethics’ was/is not to be found in the Fellowship of Friends:

    if its not on the most rock bottom level, infant child care for instance, ‘reliable, insured & professional’ daycare services and good householder for the aging enlightened, then it does not exist higher up:

    first, take care of what is occurring without your conscious permission, second, well, all the other stuff…

    (All this would be considered ‘feminine dominance’ yes? Of course, from the vantage point of being a 65 year old teenager whose got it and more ‘in tha bank’.)

    The Fellowship of Friends will learn (and this is not a prediction, its about having intuition paralleling the passing of good ole trusty Time) that it has automatically adopted Robert Burton’s lifestyle out of spiritual non-existence,

    not from the standpoint of real-time good householder, which, interestingly ‘Catch-22 enough’ is the pre-requisite to conscious individuality: so congrads Graduates, now, throw those caps, jump and get a real job, your conscience!

    Out of the millions upon millions of dollars spent on palm trees, gold gilded statues, roses, armani suits, ties, cuff links, shoes, hats, moving one palm tree three feet back by renting a $1000 dollar a day crane, remodeling the Lincoln Lodge (Apollo D’Oro) four to five times (and its still the same size!), etc. And?

    Yes, the list goes on, hey, don’t forget those insurance premiums and annual payments to Troy Buzbee’s retirement fund.

    What is there for the students on salary so far as dividends, retirement fund? Nothing, no way,

    unless of course they do succeed in making the machine immortal and you can keep working for $10 dollars a day forever?

    Rock on ‘I Robot – ert’!

    Some will argue this as a King of Clubs concern, yet, wait till you’re 60 or less, you’ll start wondering whether investing all those millions and millions into something more ‘nest like’ is perhaps advisable for the next ‘group aim’.

    Yet, you’re supposed to learn how to do that for yourself, right?

    Though has anyone ever stepped back to take a peripheral look at the triad at the Fellowship of Friends ‘should, could, would’ temple of ~

    ‘How’s the Householder Going?, Ours is doing fine, Troy’s pretty happy, Robert got those matching alligator shoes & gloves for Dorian, the Viagra subscription paid up, so to speak, for the lifetime of the School, oh, BTW, thanks for the check?’

    Is it truly a probability that ‘right work of centers’ will occur within such a hierarchical ‘pyramid’, particularly in the cleverly crafted & orchestrated ‘rotation wheel’ of people on and off salary?

    Well, as we know about the shape of ‘real’ pyramids, once whoever up there is stationed firmly on the capstone, everything else slides off the sides, back upon the ground;

    BTW, you can’t play ‘King of the Mountain’ with a pyramid.

    I believe the Fellowship of Friends has not only dug a grave for the ongoing development of the ‘inner man’, too, it has provided a practical one for its aging fakirs,

    that’s not good news, yet, hey, its news, it happens…
    for instance ~

    the pathetic play on the part of the Fellowship of Friends and Dorothy’s ‘role’, is, as Robert Burton would say concerning Helen Keller’s blindness, “everyone’s story”.

    Advice: Don’t go buying the Footnote Edition for this one.

    Vera.mente ~ Please, more sharing of real time prose, I enjoyed walking with you within this blog’s offerings.
    Great post.
    __________________________________________

    Dear ‘No Person’ (Post #107/12)

    A little note concerning Jonestown:

    Not only did Jim Jones ask/order people to commit suicide, he also commanded the intentional murder of hundreds of children and infants, too young to wiseacre deep enough to kill themselves: the murder of adults also took place, hundreds and hundreds of syringes were being stabbed and pushed into people…

    _______________________________

    Hello ‘wake up little suzy wake up’ ~ (Post #99/12)

    Believe me ‘Suzy’ this is not a subject I am going to argue with you on, for argument is simply two unverified cerebellums on ‘book dope’. I only wish to clarify my take on this subject, no more.

    You wrote ~

    “This to me is straight from the FOF thinking. Even children have out of body experiences. And most people that have meditated have them too. It doesn’t take intentional suffering or conscious will. It just happens when nothing else is happening and the mind quiets itself long enough to take off. No need to pay for this.”
    ____________________________

    Although you do not know it, we are speaking about two totally different ‘bodies’ and ‘processes’.

    I’ll try my best to be brief so that we can simply look at the core of our apples and not the 500 pound python couple who picked them for us.

    Yes, you are right when you state “It just happens..” and “children (have) them.”

    What you’re speaking of is the ‘magnetic body’, not ‘the astral body’, did you know that these are totally different in constitution and ability?

    BTW, leaving one’s body after a long day’s work, after a few beers, swinging in between REM and The Price is Right is not an objective phenomenon, i.e., not all mediators experience this.

    Can you name any one person that can leave their body at will, anytime, any day, during any set of circumstances?

    I can only name one ~ Meher Baba.

    I believe Gurdjieff got hold of the reigns to his, although I have yet to find much material on his direct ‘galloping’.

    So, please, for the sake of respecting one another’s sincere wish to talk about what he or she know as verifiable fact and not simply Opposite I’s or The Hobby of Contradicting Mr. Tennis Ball, please do your homework.

    Having an astral projection is not ‘being’ it: seeing a ghost is not ‘meeting’ it, embracing it. Holding a dying person in your arms is not the same as burying one, all sealed up and invisible…

    The words I use on this blog are only used for ‘convenience sake’, since most of you do understand that the Work Language is not the property of the Fellowship of Friends, I use it freely, yet only amongst you because I can flow through a myriad of spontaneous communication by using words that mean far more than their literal definitions, yet this does not mean its easy to use them, we all know how flagrant true personality can be:

    if enough bloggers request that I not use work language to serve certain aims of this blog ‘tool’, then I can change in a snap of a finger, Joseph Campbell comes to mind as having plenty of Thesaurus-istical loafs to carve from.

    King of Clubs can be ‘Knot so lucky Clover’, King of Hearts ‘In tha round Sugar Daddy’, King of Diamonds ‘Brain Drop from above’ and Queen of Hearts ‘Off with their heads!’ Relative awakening ‘Lost in Space’, Man #7 ‘Smokin my tires so you can’t see me.’

    If you ‘think’ you don’t have to pay for your Astral Body, then whatever you get for free will be worth just that much:

    to me, tomatoes that I have taking care of, carefully picked off and migrated the tomato horn worms from, composted and shaded during really hot days, somehow taste different than those that I can ‘freely sample’, willy nilly like at the farmer’s market…

    So please, have fun, forget the Fellowship of Friends and remember something else, if you know what I mean.

    ______________________________

    Hey Rhino Neal ~

    Can you find the quote where I speak of Mahatma Coat?

    A photograph is not a judgment or is it that the Fellowship of Friends no longer draws a distinction between a Negative Photograph and a Conscious Photograph?

    Certainly the Fellowship of Friends has had plenty of party time to wiseacre up such a ‘logical’ justification to ‘merge the two distinctions into something ‘shorter’, ‘sequence like’, since, after all, there is this thing called ‘transformation of negativity’ and if we spin this enough one could say,

    “Hey, yes it’s a negative photograph, but transform it and leave me out of it, I just build the cameras, what do I care how the photo is given, so long as it has a movie stars autograph on it, its tha play, its your ‘role of film’, develop it dude, be tha fixative…

    Rhinos happen to be one of my favorite ‘beings’, second to Hippopotamuses, I love the way Hippos have those membranes in their nostrils, that close when they dive under water: can you imagine such a odd physics-structure diving, swimming around underwater? Wow, they are similar to bumble bees, who, according to ‘logical physics’ cannot fly, yet, they do, similar to this blog.

    ________________________________

    P.S. Whalerider,

    No thanks my friend, I do not wish to have a blog assigned role name tagged to my naked breast.

    _________________________________

    Love to you all.


  139. 133

    Sort of like (actually exactly like) what’s happening in this country now.


  140. 105 WhaleRider

    “defocus my intellect to grasp your meaning”. I have often remembered Gurdjieff’s enigmatic statement “imagination takes the place of a real function” in relation to this. It is kind of wierd, like trying to grab on to one of those squishy toys that squirt out of your hands as you try to grasp it. Then when you get it you don’t know what you got. A squishy toy, I imagine.


  141. Deleted – posting names of people without their permission — ES


  142. on June 14, 2007 at 10:28 pm Was KathleenW

    Unoanimo, would you be willing to share with us what you know about the astral body from direct, first-hand experience?

    Not what you’ve been taught, but what you know from your own experience.

    Many thanks.


  143. In post # 88 No person writes
    “What you ARE – is right here, always. Watching, aware, life itself. Mind drifts, memory blinks, thoughts and feelings come and go, imagination occur – in present awareness.
    YOU cannot be absent, ever”
    I think I have pointed this out previouslym to no person. Apparantly they have little experience in writing as such I provide a link
    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html
    This presents the elements of logic.
    I quote
    “Circulus in demonstrando
    This fallacy occurs if you assume as a premise the conclusion which you wish to reach. Often, the proposition is rephrased so that the fallacy appears to be a valid argument.
    For example:
    “Homosexuals must not be allowed to hold government office. Hence any government official who is revealed to be a homosexual will lose his job. Therefore homosexuals will do anything to hide their secret, and will be open to blackmail. Therefore homosexuals cannot be allowed to hold government office.”
    Note that the argument is entirely circular; the premise is the same as the conclusion. An argument like the above has actually been cited as the reason for the British Secret Services’ official ban on homosexual employees.

    Circular arguments are surprisingly common, unfortunately. If you’ve already reached a particular conclusion once, it’s easy to accidentally make it an assertion when explaining your reasoning to someone else.”

    This clearly describes the lack of reasoning in your presentation. If you used the first person as in ” I think”, “I feel”, “In My Experience” then it would be a reasonable statement. To have a belief or experience does not mean you are stating it as a law for others. It does not even assume that one is right. Presenting yourself as another “Teacher” of revealed truth on this particular forum shows an almost total lack of external consideration in the sense of taking others into account. What that means is you are chosing a tough audience to announce your self as a new messenger of revealed truth. At least from my perspective I don’t see a group of present or former FOF members as being open to another who speaks as an anointed Messiah.
    This actually conflicts with my own desire to be open to hearing other veiws and encourage change. When you speak in a challanging “Voice” (Tense- if there was a “One who knows tense” you would be using it”) It raises my hackles. There are more profitable ways of sharing what you believe is your understanding than repeating it over and over in such an aggressive and simultaniously defensive voice. Speaking in general I doubt many would deny you the right to your own understanding if you get to where you can allow the same right to others.


  144. Wake up little suzy wake up #127
    I walk in to my office, the light is shining. All is great. It’s time for dinner. However I glance at my cpu screen and read Arthur #116. I am puzzled. That had been such a clear simple quote. I decide to try to see it his way, from his possible perspective. A half hour layet, my dinner is cold and still there is only confusion. Of course being a good bit of a lunar as well I do understand that there is a passive and a negative element involved in the quote, but that doesn’t make anything a lunar horror. I give up. I apply resistance to the flowing electrical energy by flipping the light switch and off I go. All the while there were these negative “I”s nudging me like “Must be a lunar himself!” with a vibration of judgement and/or arogance and/or vanity in the intellectual center. Fortunately I notice that my mood is not as joyous as it was just before. “All is well!” Yeah! “All is really well, now, now!”
    Thank you, Carmen, that was one hell of a drunk, my first weekend at Renaissance, when you half falling over advised me to “Remember yourself, now! Now! NOw! NOW! NNow! NOwwwwwww!


  145. A question for Bruce.
    Does your experience at the Blake cottage pre date Robert’s claim of crystillization in 1976?


  146. Cyclops, please try to abide by the rules – ie. don’t post people’s names without their prior permission. I had to delete your post.

    An explanation on the new system of moderation. People will be identified by their name, e-mail and IP address. Their first comment has to be moderated in order to appear on the blog (won’t be in real time), their subsequent posts will appear real time. For this reason there are some new comments in between those that appeared real-time. Re-reading the last 70 comments or so could be a good idea. Changing your name or e-mail address will mean that your first post will once again have to be moderated. No one has been blacklisted in the past two days, YAY!!!


  147. Sorry Sheik i wasnt aware of the no name thing ill bear it in mind. all the best to you. In Blairitain.


  148. 146

    If I remember correctly (and I might not) I think it was a bit after the supposed blessed event. I was living in a tent before that (or under a table at the lodge).


  149. 104 Kathryn F .thank you and yes….we are. good vibes to you .Cy


  150. #134 Unoanimo

    Some people have smoke-ray glasses.


  151. 112 KA

    I hope you’ll post a link to it when you’re finished.

    B


  152. Re: Former Student #144 and No Person #88,

    Forgive me for being a little dense, but I would like to wade through this a little more carefully.

    As I understand the premise of Advaita (and from what I have read these ideas are at the base of all other esoteric traditions — I find them in buddhism, zen, chirstianity, Lao Tzu, the poetry of Rumi, Hafiz, Walt Whitman….) our conception of ‘I’ is simply a bad habit. We consider mind activity to be integral to our being and identity, whereas they insist that identity cannot be something that comes and goes. So, any i, any manifestation, any thing that we could point to as being ‘me’, if it is ephemeral, it cannot be me. Yet I cannot say that I do not exist. Somebody or something has to be there in order for all this to occur. So what is in your (my) direct experience that is unchanging and ever present? Whatever that is, must be what I truly am. Anything else is changeable and impermanent.

    To: ‘A Former Student’: do you see this approach as I’ve phrased it to be fatally flawed? Is there circular reasoning in the above? I am curious.


  153. #135 A Former Student: I was only in FOF about two years.
    Mostly out of California. The city where I joined it’s teaching house and students disbanded. Everybody went to different parts of California. The rumor at the time was that Robert decided there were not enough magnetic centers in the city.

    I went to San Francisco it seems more than once. One time I was sent to a small city across the Oakland Bay bridge. I think it was called El Cerrito. I was there less than a week or two.

    I’m trying to remember the sequence but cannot. I went by car, by train and by Grey Hound bus. Back and forth. Less than $200.00 would not go far in California even back then.

    My time in San Francisco was not long weeks at the most.
    I stayed at two different places. Lake street and 10th.
    But, I sure did enjoy the corner of Market and Powell” “My kind of people ” maybe?

    Renald #145: “Must be a lunar himself” . Judgement, arrogance and vanity. Exposed again. What about a little fear in essence? Chief feature? Fear or vanity?


  154. In reply to #113:

    My impression from RB’s story about his ‘accident’ was that it took place well before he met Bonita and ‘started the school.’


  155. Sheik –

    Does the new moderation mean that anytime a new ip address posts, that comment will be buried somewhere behind the most currently read comments? How will we know to go back and find them?

    Could it be possible to tell the new poster that they might want to re-submit their comment after moderation is finished, so that it will appear real-time?

    Thanks! For everything!


  156. Unoanimo

    #95 “I’ll be that inconspicuous one with the samurai sword in near the far-right-back of the pet food section, you know the spot, in between the ice maker and the unisex bathroom. Just chillin, if you know what I mean.”

    #134 “No thanks my friend, I do not wish to have a blog assigned role name tagged to my naked breast.”

    You mean other than the role you pin to your own naked breast. Ever hear of a Sun dance? It’s not done for fun. It’s a choice we make for ourselves. But you are kinda squishy to hold…

    Sometimes, I experience my higher centers on the sidelines of my mind like the understated beauty sitting against the wall at the dance all by herself because she will only join in if asked by a brave soul.


  157. From Graduates:

    “If you really imagine that there is no group-think going on here, on the magically liberated outside of the FOF, then you are still a cult member.”

    “On the other hand maybe everyone is just bored with this. That’s it right, isn’t it? They are just bored?”

    “Avoid unnecessary talk, speak realistically to the aim.”

    ***

    Graduates, we are ALL part of a cult – the human cult.

    “Group think”? Is this something unusual? Would you not expect to find it everywhere in society? Do you believe any one of us is exempt?

    From your tone, I suspect you’re not helping promote that back-up blog. The fears you express create doubt that you would maintain a forum that is, as you describe: “uncensored (as long as on topic and not too offensive), no personality from the moderator, all sides of the issue are welcome, unmoderated…”

    You clearly have an idea of how things SHOULD be, how our opinions SHOULD be presented to Fellowship of Friends members who are “on the fence” (as if they are the “target audience” here), and of what is appropriate or inappropriate.

    Readers will simply vote with their keyboards.

    By the way, what pseudonym did you previously post under? (It’s difficult to keep up with this cast of characters. Good thing we don’t go around “in life” changing our names alll the time. Oh, wait…we did.)


  158. on June 15, 2007 at 12:20 am wake up little suzy wake up

    139 Unoanimo:

    “Can you name any one person that can leave their body at will, anytime, any day, during any set of circumstances?

    I can only name one ~ Meher Baba.”

    Unoanimo, how the hell do you know what Meher Baba can do?

    Many of your posts have a ‘know it all’ quality to them. And yes, I did know someone who ‘said’ they could do this, but that would not be something I would quote, because it was just something I heard.


  159. Reply to A former student (144):

    No Person isn’t setting herself up as a teacher. She’s just describing what she sees. The subtle shift in perception that enables this kind of seeing has been described above a number of times. There’s nothing to it really. It doesn’t make you special in any way, or even different from how you were before. But you know certain truths to be real.

    It’s shame that this kind of certainty “raises your hackles”, although it’s understandable after what we went through in the FoF. Many ex-FoFers want to have nothing to do with spirituality after leaving. Others continue on a spiritual path. Some find the answers they are looking for quite quickly. That’s what happened to No Person. Why should she pretend otherwise?


  160. #157 WhaleRider

    “Sometimes, I experience my higher centers on the sidelines of my mind like the understated beauty sitting against the wall at the dance all by herself because she will only join if asked by a brave soul.”

    Pretty.


  161. Tim Campion 158

    “Graduates, we are ALL part of a cult – the human cult.”

    *****************

    Wrong.

    “Psychology refers to people, to men, to human beings. What psychology (he emphasized the word) can there be in relation to machines? Mechanics, not psychology, is necessary for the study of machines. That is why we begin with mechanics. It is a very long way yet to psychology.” –G. I. Gurdjieff

    *

    There is no universal human cult because there is no universal human psychology. The so-called human cult (the collective social order of organized religious, commercial and military cooperation) consists of sleeping humans, it would not be correct to call it a cult anymore than it would be correct to call a beehive a cult.

    *

    “Take for instance the being of a mineral and of a plant. It is a different being. The being of a plant and of an animal is again a different being. The being of an animal and of a man is a different being. But the being of two people can differ from one another more than the being of a mineral and of an animal. This is exactly what people do not understand.” -Gurdjieff

    Leaving the mainstream of the inaccurately described “cult” of involuntary human busywork requires a development that is not generally natural or inherent, it requires the development of something capable of recognizing itself outside of the stimulus-response activity of imitating the surrounding population. There are small groups of human creatures that imagine that they have done such a thing, that they have removed themselves from the influence of the human beehive, when in fact they simply reduce the field of their involuntary imitation down to the level of a smaller organization. The problem with groups of people leaving the mainstream to promote their own sense of reality is that such a movement almost always self-selects as the participants those that are substandard and dysfunctional when it comes to normal mainstream functioning in the first place, so that this new beehive is an even more distorted entity than the mainstream. If the larger organism is motivated by imaginary incentives (happiness in life and after death) then these pocketsize cult motivations tend to be even more extreme in their invention of meanings behind their actions.

    But this is just a surface beginning to explain how shallow, rambling and thoughtless your apparent sense of reality is, your “argument” (against the tone of my various thoughts) is really little more than a statement cloaked in scattered associative language that declares: “I don’t like you. You are bothering me.” Next time just say so and leave the “rational analysis” of cause-and-effect to the rational.


  162. wake up little suzy wake up #159

    What are you using for bait? Woms?

    I tried dem a few days ago, and I caught me a whopper!

    I leave my body every night. It’s always been there when I got back, thank the good lord. Well almost always. One night I got me one hell of a shock when I went to the wrong room and slipped into my mother-in-law’s body.
    Lucky for me was gone! Thank the good lord! My, my, that there ‘preciation feels great!

    Speakin’ o’ shocks, was jes reasin’ about RB havin’ an accident and couldn’t for the life of me remember no accident, then the penny dropped. Oh! THAT RB!


  163. Since the Michael material is being discussed, I thought to mention that I also found it helpful back a decade or so ago.

    Especially in the early years of leaving FoF I was alert to explanations for what had happened to me there, which as we can see from the outpouring here , cries to be understood and integrated.

    I am again grateful to have this forum. It reminds me of how a certain work of art or author sometimes captures my attention — a light comes on through that medium. The window generally is time limited, so I want to make the most of it while it lasts. I look, I read, I listen, all rather voraciously. Same here with the blog. ( Although I must say I am glad to have a quasi-moderator back, the tone without ES was turning repellent to me).

    I realized I wanted to make a list of ‘things I need to clear,’ to get out of my system, to integrate more fully, related to FoF days. As many have said so well, this virtual community is providing an atmosphere of potent support, a support that is needed in order to be seen, acknowledged, held in understanding. The intensity, the presence simply, of those involved with this exchange seems to promote a kind of alchemy, a missing and apparently necessary ingredient for some of us to complete the ‘digestion’ of the huge experience of our involvement in this closed, high-intensity, high-demand group — one of the great love affairs of our lives for some of us.

    Here are a few organizing ideas I found helpful — most requiring a suspension of my disbelief in the irrational and psychic worlds:

    From the Michael material, there is the concept of needing to spend a lifetime ‘serving a corrupt master’ to master the lessons learned in such an environment. I appreciate the lifting out of blame & judgement such a perspective offers.

    Then, the idea that ‘Old Kings’ appeared on earth in their next to last lifetime to gather their past subjects around them so that all could work out their mutual karma. Some light on the importance of community felt by so many.

    From there I thought — okay, service to a corrupt old king, what are the lessons learned there from? Plenty.

    An idea from Aurobindo: Put forth as one of the perils of the spiritual path for advanced practitioners: the peril of getting stuck in the “Intermediate Realm” (not quite enlightened). I do not have the reference at hand, but the description of the behavior described seemed to fit RB. He definitely had a great magnetism going for him — some access to “higher spiritual worlds.” However, the problems of inflation and shadow (my poor paraphrasing) tend toward misuse of these finer energies and also being prey to being used by dark astral entities (not sure I would subscribe to that these days, a while back, it helped).

    The idea of the ‘Black Magician’, perhaps mentioned here in the blog, I cannot recall, also resonated as a plausible explanation for the combination of light and dark, apparent good and evil mixed up with RB and in the FoF atmosphere.

    ____________________

    On another note, I am unhappy about attacks not only on other former Fofers, but on some people still in FoF that I remember and consider friends. Linda T, in particular seems to be a great irritant to a number posting here. I think of Linda as a quirky, brilliant, dear friend and it pains me to hear her maligned.

    There are many others I believe are still involved with Fof with whom I also feel a close bond — Anthony & Patricia G, Ethan, Phillipe & Judith, Hans H. come immediately to mind. And when I hear of the NY students — Benjamin, Kevin, Helaine have been mentioned here — my heart melts a little. I can feel a deep desire for their well-being.

    As I have stated before, I don’t understand why someone needs to remain in an environment that came to be oppressive to me, from which I was grateful to escape.

    If anything, I feel compassion for their predicament and pray that their inner guidance knows what they most need and will guide them appropriately.

    I do appreciate that the record of the blog exists for anyone currently in FoF who feels called to reach in this direction for insight or perspective on their situation. For those who are not looking, I am not aware of any desire to sway them. To me that is a fruitless enterprise. They do, however, deserve, I believe respect for what they are going through.

    Thank you for reading,
    Sandra


  164. Thanks Sandra.


  165. on June 15, 2007 at 1:17 am wake up little suzy wake up

    To nobody in particular but continuing with Renald’s response to mine:

    I do have a lot of experience with being out of my body but I don’t mention it much to other people, because those are my experiences.

    I am however grateful for them because they have taught me not to fear death and to verify that something does exist apart from the body, and that there is no real death, just a transition of some kind. It’s hard to explain. I don’t have names for it. I just know for myself it’s true.

    I also believe that for each person it’s a really different experience. Trying to share experiences in this realm just makes it more confusing. I guess we create what we want in and out of our bodies and whatever your creation is, is yours alone. It’s truly hard to share something like that and have someone else understand what you have experienced.

    I hope this makes sense. Words are not really my thing. For a long time I just read this blog and didn’t participate much but lately I thought it might be fun to become a little bit more active.

    I think everyone has something worth saying, including me.

    And if I think it can help someone understand something I will share it. Otherwise, I’m not much for arguing. I get enough of that with my teenage son! NO FUN!


  166. Graduates # 106

    I would appreciate if you could please explain why comparisons with nazi thought bother you so much. For me they work quite well, because Nazism is one of the most obvious examples of how normal people can be manipulated into completely giving up the their personal conscience in exchange for a servitude to someone perceived as “higher”. One of the most important books on the subject of nazi group thinking is “Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil”, by Hannah Arendt. I am quoting Wikipedia:
    Arendt takes Eichmann’s court testimony and the historical evidence available, and makes several compelling observations about Eichmann:
    – Eichmann stated himself in court that he had always tried to abide by Kant’s categorical imperative (as discussed directly on pp. 135-137). She argues that Eichmann had essentially taken the wrong lesson from Kant: Eichmann had not recognized the “Golden Rule” and principle of reciprocity implicit in the categorical imperative, but had only understood the concept of one man’s actions coinciding with general law. Eichmann attempted to follow the spirit of the laws he carried out, as if the legislator himself would approve. In Kant’s formulation of the categorical imperative, the legislator is the moral self, and all men are legislators; in Eichmann’s formulation, the legislator was Adolf Hitler. Eichmann claimed this changed when he was charged with carrying out the Final Solution, at which point Arendt claims “he had ceased to live according to Kantian principles, that he had known it, and that he had consoled himself with the thoughts that he no longer ‘was master of his own deeds,’ that he was unable ‘to change anything’ (p. 136)….
    – Eichmann’s inability to think for himself was exemplified by his consistent use of “stock phrases and self-invented clichés.” This “officialese” (Amtssprache) demonstrated his unrealistic worldview and crippling lack of communication skills.
    – Eichmann, in his peripheral role at the Wannsee Conference (so Arendt argued), witnessed the rank-and-file of the German civil service heartily endorse Reinhardt Heydrich’s program for the Final Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe. Upon seeing members of “respectable society” endorsing Hitler’s most reprehensible crime, and enthusiastically participating in the planning of the solution, Eichmann felt that his moral responsibility was relaxed, as if he were “Pontius Pilate”.
    – During his imprisonment before his trial, the Israeli government sent no less than six psychologists to examine Eichmann. Not only did these doctors find no trace of mental illness, but they also found no evidence of abnormal personality whatsoever. One doctor remarked that his overall attitude towards other people, especially his family and friends, was “highly desirable,” while another remarked that the only unusual trait Eichmann displayed was being more “normal” in his habits and speech than the average person.
    I think that very similar “compelling observations” could be made when looking at Girard and other students’ thinking and behaviour. And I say this not with the intent to diminish them, but to try convey what I now, like many others, have come to perceive. I am not saying that they necessarily would go as far as locking “life people” inside cattle trains and send them to extermination, but it is possible that they may not actually lift a finger to help them, if it ever comes to that…
    We are so used to look at nazi Germany as the ultimate incarnation of evil that we fail to grasp the main point of this cautionary tale: those same thought mechanisms are potentially at work in every human being, and these processes constantly take place, on various scales, throughout history and throughout the world. And they are definitely at work inside the FOF, regardless of how “good” and “normal” the people involved may be. I used to picture myself as good and normal, but now I am more cautious with my own self image. Actually I try not to have one, which makes it easier to spot the bad and the weird sides when they show up.
    “The price of freedom is eternal vigilance”, as you American friends well know.


  167. I think the following is something everyone owes it to themselves to be informed about.

    With love and hope

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,2103350,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront


  168. then try to apply it to your own lives!


  169. on June 15, 2007 at 1:29 am wake up little suzy wake up

    Sandra C: Thanks for the heart message.


  170. on June 15, 2007 at 1:40 am wake up little suzy wake up

    18,258 hits in 7 days!


  171. Laura 167
    Graduates # 106

    I would appreciate if you could please explain why comparisons with nazi thought bother you so much.

    **************

    It is not realistic and rather than promote some useful understanding about the FOF cult and the experience of being in it such statements further distort an outlook that was already distorted when those that were participants believed they were in heaven. You want to trade a belief that you were in heaven for a belief that you were in something equivalent to the Nazis. You want to remain extremely important. You were in a crappy little cult that will dry up and fade away, this is how you spent some years of your life. Hard to accept, but that is the fact. People that were part of the murderous Nazis were at least a significant part of history, we are barely a footnote.


  172. on June 15, 2007 at 1:42 am Walter Tanner

    Sandra (#164),

    What a beautiful post, thanks for getting out what I couldn’t. Damn it, I still admire that rascal Robert for what he gets away with.

    Got to say I was a little surprised and uncomfortable with you naming names, even first names…then I saw my fear was stupid.

    So to the people you mention, I’ll add Michael and Nicholas, they were both dear friends of mine and I think of them often. They both helped me and let me see things. I use their ‘I’s, when appropriate. Wish them the best.

    Also going to start my spiritual autobiography. I won’t post it here but will leave links.

    Thanks again Sandra,

    walter.tanner@gmail.com


  173. 164

    Made me start to think about the people I love who are still in. Sort of gives one a painful pang.


  174. on June 15, 2007 at 1:59 am Veronicapoe

    For those interested, “Fellowship of Friends Timeline, January 1970 – January 1974″ is now online:

    http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_608

    Visit Veronicapoe’s bookmarks:
    http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Veronicapoe


  175. Dear former student (#144) – you seem to be picking at my english skills. It’s not my native language, which is Russian. I do the best I can to express what I feel and observe. I actually can write very nicely in Russian! It’s not tension you see – it’s mostly foreign language… Can you express yourself fluently and beautifully in other language, have you ever tried?
    I said many times before that what I try to express is honest EXPERIENCE, not some intellectual point of view. May be I don’t mention this in every post.
    Unfortunately you are taking something completely IMPERSONAl very personally, but I can’t convince you otherwise. If we would meet face to face you may have a different opinion. On the blog all one sees is printed words, and then imagination does the rest.
    I have no intention to teach, or lead, in fact half of my statements denounce the whole elevated position of teaching and teacher-student hierarchy! I think what Robert is doing by putting himself above others is criminal. All it does is create a cult of a person. He must be doing this out of misunderstanding and ignorance, otherwise it wouldn’t happen.
    I am trying to say that we are completely, totally EQUAL in what we really are in our nature – conscious awareness. All it took for me to realize this was an honest inquiry with the help of John Wheeler’s pointers. It was a shift in perception, not an “achievement” through efforts. Ever since life has completely changed internally – to the best! I keep sharing this, because it is simplicity itself, and it liberates tremendously, and it’s not “mine” or “anyone’s”. It totally frees you from this imaginary concept of yourself, that each of us has and carries around, thinking this is who we are. This concept causes so much suffering! And it’s all in the head.
    This message is the absolute best message I can ever offer to friends and I love sharing this. I think the only way it sinks is by ” repeating it over and over”! Because we have such a developed thick imaginary picture of who we are, and couple brief notes wouldn’t do it, they’ll bounce right off. But one day you may just sit quietly and look within: “Who the heck am I after all? Am I really this little “me” in the mind?”
    This message does resonate with people, not with everyone but with quite a few, I know it for a fact. And more people these days (for some unknown cosmic reasons) seem to come to this stunning and simple realization – that we are not this imaginary guy in the head who suffers and complains, but what we are is so infinitely more, so alive, so free, so full of love, ever-present and nameless awareness itself.
    No one can teach you this – because you already have it inside, just like I do, like anyone does. We all are born like this, and then – forget when mind takes over. Just look at babies! They are pure being with no imaginary suffering. Our mind then creates an identity around our name and sex and we start believing that we are this limited poor person with problems. I see now that we are not! It’s all been in the head – the whole life of “me”! And there is so much joy in seeing what we truly are and sharing this.
    This message is not mine. It is so impersonal. I don’t even sign my name under it – not out of fear! And these words are like a pointing finger. Don’t focus on it, try to see what the words are saying. It may suddenly create a shift in perception, very liberating shift. You’ll laugh. But so far you just been blaming the delivery – sorry I express it the best I can with my limited language resources. Spare the messenger…
    Warm hug.


  176. David, 153, you said it so well. It’s exactly that – there is simple “feeling” of being no matter what occurs on the surface. It’s not really a “thing” to observe, it’s more like observ-ing.
    “Yet I cannot say that I do not exist. Somebody or something has to be there in order for all this to occur.” – Exactly.
    It is this subtle backround of awareness, being there, looking out. Like a canvas that holds all the paints of the painting. Undeniable. And ON it occur other changing things like thoughts (including self-centered thoughts) , feelings, states, objects, landscapes, people… It’s like a broth in the soup – holds all the pieces that add all the color and flavor, yet is transparent and neutral itself.
    The background of awareness is so close and so habitual… It’s really what doesn’t go away. You can admit it right now, get a feeling of it, acknowledge that there is awareness, aliveness, sense of being, consciousness. It’s subtle, simple. It’s always there, just like heartbeat or breathing. We simply OVER-LOOK it.


  177. on June 15, 2007 at 5:03 am Skeptical Optimist

    Sandra 164

    What a wonderful and healing message, thanks. Got me to think about the people still “in.”

    Laura 167

    I really enjoyed this post and respected the thought that went into it. The decades of trying to deny the “shadow” or “dark” quality that seems instrinsic leads to all sorts of mischief, so naming it is revelatory.

    JoelF


  178. Thanks Bruce

    I get confused about dates. The first time I lived at The Farm it was called Mt. Carmel. I ended that octave when the large expansion occured in 1976 and I moved to Phoenix. The first 6 months I lived at the Farm I was on unemploynent sleeping on the Lincoln Lodge floor. Then I fell ill and was put on salary and assigned to be M’Aitre’D. I lived in a tent with John Graham. I think the communitee center was built about this time. After about a year and a half in Phoenix and Newport Beach I returned to renaissance. So that would be about 1977 or 78, I was on salary and lived in the smallest and oldest silver egg. I had a roomate whose name I can’t remember who was young blond good looking and appeared eager to be friends with Robert and spend time at the Cottage.

    I believe it was at this time the addition to the Blake Cottage was completed and the print shop built. As I said before in retrospect I find it odd that it simply never occured to me to tell Robert I knew how to set type.
    This is when the Renaissance Journal was printed.

    Please pardon the use of names Sheik if this is moderated OK. This blog has caused memories to surface. I wonder what happened to Ken and Susan Hale. They were early students. Ken was a martial. He owned the FOF’s first tracktor a Case Backhoe which I learned to use. Also John Graham


  179. 178

    Ken and Shannon are good buds. They are well with two magnificent daughters. Just had dinner with them two days ago, and Susan was there as well. What great people. Shannon used to be Aline for awhile.

    I know the scenario you are describing. Pretty interesting. Ah yes, Mt. Carmel.

    love ya man.


  180. Incidentally, if you want to fall in love with someone from the wrong side of the tracks: the new Amy Winehouse cd.


  181. Sometimes one just needs a diversion.


  182. #167 Laura, I really appreciate your view point … especially as a german in america (where most don’t realize how close to fashism they are).
    Growing up in the 60’s and 70’s in germany, I and my generation spent a lot of time to assure no old fascism was able to pop up again.

    And I know most of you will put aside any comparison between Nazi germany and the fof. And yes its a different scale, but thats not the point.

    Take it on a smaller scale, how does my story reflect my grand uncles story? One grand uncle was in the SS and became the major of Baden-Baden in the 40’s and the other had a higher level Waffen SS job as well.

    I had nothing but pity for them until i was in my 30s and in the fellowship, and one of them published a book about his experience in Nazi Germany.

    And then I noticed the paralells. We both didn’t quite know what to do with this one precious life and he asked his god and I asked my god for an answer. He found the Nazis, which he describes as a community to awaken the world, I found the fellowship, presence and awakening. He says he didn’t know there where bad things happening ( only rumors ) well I said the same. When it ended , they lost everything, friends, jobs and believes.
    And we both were lucky, having learned enough practical skills in our cults to succeed in the world. But he, this 80+year old man, was still digesting this one experience, this few years in his twenties.

    thats what we are doing here i guess , so I don’t have to write a book later on.


  183. I hope I didn’t offend anyone. For those looking for a more conservative diversion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qooPczldqMo&mode=related&search=


  184. Dear no person
    post #175 was very eloquent and I apologize if I was harsh in my statement.
    Still your statements do not resonate with me. If it is your truth that is all well and good .

    “I know it for a fact. And more people these days (for some unknown cosmic reasons) seem to come to this stunning and simple realization – that we are not this imaginary guy in the head who suffers and complains, but what we are is so infinitely more, so alive, so free, so full of love, ever-present and nameless awareness itself.”

    This means nothing at all to me so. I mean it sounds wonderful and if it is your experience wonderful. My truth is process. This is what I know and what my experience indicates. I have had very intense spiritual or psychological experiences. I have experienced what I believe are higher centers. These experiences have left both intense memories and imagination. The lower cannot contain the higher. These experiences have contributed to my growth and understanding but I do not accept all my visions as fact. One time I had an intense experience in which over a period of days and weeks I came to an emotional crescendo of realization that we are the Angels. That In each of us is that spark of divine life. For a brief moment I experienced the reality of the emanation of the creative force and the struggle to return. This is all fine and good. These states were also accompanied with other thoughts I know were magical thinking. or If they had any real basis I could not absorb them.

    If these were indeed experiences of being awake then what I have gained is that I now know more deeply than exer that I am asleep. Over time I shed layers and each time I arrive at myself contradictory, peevish, negative just struggling along. Nothing has taken the place of time and effort at developing being. No matter that I may think I’ve learned a lesson I have to learn it again.

    The one single weakest aspect I have observed of what otherwise are positive experiences is a form of higher imagination which is what I believe Robert suffered from and is very common in the contemporary spiritualityu community. In this form of imagination one imagines that because one did genuinely experience awakening one is awake. That Robert never spoke of this causes me to question if he ever did become man #5. he may have done what so many others of the spiritual community have done. Having had real experiences They See these spiritual experiences as a way to make money. So they write books, give work shops and lecture or start a 4th way school ( do you know there is a so called 4th way school called The Way Fourth founded by a divine teacher named Robert)

    I think we need to re evaluate what the level of being of a man #4 is. One aspect is that there is a broader spectrum of possibility in man # 4 than the other degree’s. Man # 4 begins with mechanical man with the possibility of development and ends with a conscious man. What does this mean. How often do higher centers need to function to be officially conscious? I ask this sincerely what do others think. Is one hour a day enough? two hours? Three hours? at what point does the experience accumulate enough that their is a change in being?

    Is the experience of higher centers a normal result of efforts to self remember. I believe so. I further believe that Robert failed to be real clear on the qualities of the seven degree’s of self remembering because he never knew them. This should be basic information that a man number 4 can give a man #4. What are the degree of self remembering? What are the notes of the octave in developing deputy steward and steward? I only rememberRobert giving generalities when questioned on these areas. Did I miss something? Did later members get more clear indications?

    So far I question the quality of some aspects of the teaching after I left. Of course 25 vyears is a long time but I think the time I spent in the FOF is the defining experience is my life.I have been clear ,I hope, in my attitude about Robert’s claims of being a divine being forced by the God’s to have Oral sex with a myriad of youthful partners. Some aspects of the growth of the FOF seem wonderful other questionable. I was fortunate to spend time with Robert and many of the first generation of students. Then as now I am finding that although what attracted me to the FOF was the System and information what was truly valuable was the people I met
    .This is as true of this blog and those who take the time to write. For me this blog has a transforming power.
    I was as naive devotee to MY Teacher and his divinity as anyone.
    Does anyone ever recall the line From either Gurdjieff or Ouspensky on seeking a teacher. It was similar to ” the lower the being of the student the higher they demand their teacher be until they expect Jesus Christ themselves to be their teacher”
    Thank you all.


  185. Just one more then I’ll shut up. Recorded in my town, Nevada City. Some of my buds are playing in this. Enjoy.

    rock and roll.


  186. In reply to David post #153

    This agree’s with my understanding so it may well be semantics as no name explained they are not native English speakers. It is an inherent limitation of the internet that what we are able to communicate it limited by whatever writing skills we have. I am sensitive to certain uses of language. One is the use of the plural for what must be a personal experience.

    In my early days as a member probably in 1974 Stella Wirk once explained observing I to me . As best I can recall she said that the part that could observe the intellectual center, the moving center , the instinctive center that I could imagine it as a hole in the back of my head and peeking in.
    So, yes to me it is and has beem for many years obvious that if I can observe 4 functions there must be something that is not of any of the functions.

    A sonnet William Shakespeare
    VIII.

    Music to hear, why hear’st thou music sadly?
    Sweets with sweets war not, joy delights in joy.
    Why lovest thou that which thou receivest not gladly,
    Or else receivest with pleasure thine annoy?
    If the true concord of well-tuned sounds,
    By unions married, do offend thine ear,
    They do but sweetly chide thee, who confounds
    In singleness the parts that thou shouldst bear.
    Mark how one string, sweet husband to another,
    Strikes each in each by mutual ordering,
    Resembling sire and child and happy mother
    Who all in one, one pleasing note do sing:
    Whose speechless song, being many, seeming one,
    Sings this to thee: ‘thou single wilt prove none.’


  187. #182 Michael

    “(where most don’t realize how close to fashism they are)”

    Close?!


  188. Old Fish In The Sea 13

    “The efforts of trying to be present, free from feminine dominance, and in good householder eventually lead one to see that supporting Robert’s ways is more denying force than 3rd force.”

    Ralph H 138

    “In the psychological terms of his day he pretty well describes the roll of “feminine dominance” and the strength of the “instictive center” in the decision making process.”

    unoanimo 139

    “All this would be considered ‘feminine dominance’ yes?”

    *********************

    Feminine Dominance:

    http://www.geocities.com/gwgoodwin/four2002.html


  189. #184 A former student

    Here is a suggestion (if I can be so arrogant. Hey, it never stopped me before) of something I tried with interesting results.

    For a month or so stop any effort to self-remember or divide attention or “take in impressions” or not express negative emotions or anything like that. Instead, whenever you can think of it just return to a sensing of your common presence. No matter what particular “state” you might be experiencing, howerver contracted or expanded.

    Of course, it is obvious I am making a bunch of assumptions here. This is what came to my mind while reading your posts.


  190. I have to say that I am really glad with the way that the blog is shaping out.

    Whalerider (157) and Bruce (168): Am I right to believe that you know a bit more about me than I thought?


  191. Since your IP address changes with each new connection to the internet a change in IP address will not mean that your comment will be moderated. A change in name and/or e-mail will. The only use that the IP address has for me is that I am able to blacklist people if they force me to by spamming or disrupting the discussion.


  192. #171 wake up little suzy wake up

    18258 hits in 7 days!

    That’s not so much. Remember 14,000 of them were Bruce.


  193. 188.Shelley. M. Thanks for the Ref, it’ll be fun looking over that again after so many years. good luck Cy.


  194. wake up little suzy wake up #166:

    I knew an elderly woman who has sinced past on and into a hole in the ground.

    She was born in 1901 in the country. I think she said she went to the 7th grade.

    She was a simple woman. And, she had a Mother Theresa
    quality about people. She treated everybody with respect.

    Before I became interested in all the “new age’ phenomena, I happened to ask her a question about a subject that I had seen in a magazine.

    She said, “That happened to me once. It seemed like I floated up to this place. (she described the setting) And a woman and man were there to meet me. The man never spoke, but the woman talked with me”

    I cannot remember all the little details, but she remembered her experience clearly. This woman was not fluent in English her father’s language nor Spanish her mother’s language.

    But, It came to a point in her story that she said, “they spoke to me in Hebrew”. I asked, “how do you know it was Hebrew?
    “Have you heard Hebrew before”?

    She said, ” no but I understood what they were telling me and it was in Hebrew”.


  195. on June 15, 2007 at 11:48 am Bass Ackwards

    To Joe Average: [#14] Part 1
    (Also Former Student [#184] Part 2 is pretty good)
    Thanks for your posts and the good points you have raised.

    Fundamentally, how can one expect to learn what Consciousness really is from a Teacher who has avoided developing his own Conscience? A man whose crystallization of Higher Bodies in himself may not necessarily include realization of the (Universal) Self: a realization which demands negation of all other personalities and desires, even the desire to have a “Teacher personality”. Can this be true? How to look? How to understand? How to determine?

    Thus, in this blog we deviate from the crux of the problem if we digress into the sometimes lurid details of Robert Burton’s sex life, dominance, greed or vanity, which are but mere signposts of that lack of realization. This big tedious discussion is great for providing evidence of those signposts, but by now, we seem to have better things to do with our time here. Maybe this discussion can go further as we dig deeper into our own Selves? Thus our questions need to revolve more around what may be the spiritual signposts of Robert Burton’s lack of Conscious development? A subtle spiritual question, difficult to attempt to answer. But can’t we try?

    For starters, and to cover the main objections as far as I can see them, let’s say that for any student I know (or my own “I’s”) we may wish to counter the whole “validity of the Fellowship of Friends as a Conscious School” discussion with such responses as: “ah, but, I have experienced higher states in his presence”, or “in the presence of other students”, or also “through what I felt to be a C Influence play”. Fair enough and true enough. That is precisely what keeps this merry-go-round spinning: the real work that does occur in and between sincere students trying to be present to their own life, the joy of our companionship, the years of payment and shared commitment, the real Presence created by 50, 100, or 200 of us gathered in one room focussed on being Present – yet guided by a man who may have crystallized in such a way that it allows his Nine of Hearts to pump out esoteric truth, mixed with poetry, images, and wiseacreaing, entertaining and inspiring to us all. A man who has hypnotized himself – and us – into believing that all he does, he does for our own spiritual good, as it is an expression in him of Influence C. In addition, the real effort in each student, when faced with it (because not all are), to transform the behavioural contradictions which regularly occur here; inherent in the fabric of Robert Burton’s expression of the Fourth Way. This is the true sustenance of our Fellowship. A School atmosphere, containing three lines of work, possessed of such fine and rarified hydrogens that one would indeed need to be a rather dull being to not have some of that lovely stuff rub off inside.

    So, how to cut through all of these “states” to arrive at some semblance of spiritual truth? Remember first, the states, the higher understandings you have experienced here are real, they belong to You, to who You really are, no one can take them away from You, no one can talk You out of them, as they exist outside of space and time, thus also, they exist outside of the boundaries of the Fellowship of Friends, boundaries that are certainly no firmer than that of the physical body’s upon it’s death dissolution. It may even be possible to say, that if so many readers respond with “yes”, the states that have been produced here are real, then also the Fellowship of Friends may be a real School of Consciousness, yet guided by a man who is simply not as Conscious as he and we have imagined him to be. Can we separate the School from the Teacher? It seems that we must. Thus the issue then devolves to the “validity of Robert Burton as a (not so) fully realized Conscious Being.” Can we try?

    To my mind, the place to observe our own School’s (and thus our Teacher’s) spiritual immaturity is in our “myths”, myths that come from Robert Burton’s interpretation of the Fourth Way. They surface here and there on this blog, but I’ll try to consolidate them now:
    • We, as members of this School, are the only ones on the planet who are gifted to know about Self-Remembering
    • The 80 billion other people on the planet are sleeping machines, doomed, without Self-Remembering, to a double death
    • Former students have thrown away their one chance in this lifetime to do something “conscious” with their life
    • Empathizing with the suffering of others can be Feminine Dominance, and is to be avoided
    • Influence C consists, among other things, of 44 angels who are dedicated to working with individual students to insure their “awakening” over the course of 9 lifetimes
    • The Lower Self is actively against Self-Remembering, and to be avoided as best as one can
    • All critical observations of the School or Teacher can be seen as examples of the Lower Self gaining precedence over one’s Work
    • Awakening occurs when an individual has accumulated enough Hydrogen 12 to become saturated, thereby enabling crystallization of Higher Centers
    • The Sequence has the power to awaken us if only we can do it passionately and often enough

    Could it be that the formatory understanding and application of these same “myths” has lead to our current spiritual malaise? Each point, needs to be understood with relativity to appreciate it’s own merit or de-. Thus, the contemplation of these same precepts from other recognized spiritual Masters may be able to reveal the depth of the misunderstanding guiding our School. It is not my aim now to counter each point with quotations from others. Let someone else do that? But let’s do it? Here, or on your own. Dig. Probe. Question. BE. Here is the challenge, as a School, can we grow up? Can we use the knowledge from other Schools to correct the course of our own?


  196. Arthur I said:

    #109: “I suffered constant anxiety and cannot believe I was so frozen in place and did not move on sooner”

    You said :
    Sounds Lunar also. It’s a horror while you are going through it.

    Interesting you are saying this is lunar, and not having a shred of it (well maybe just 5%), I think it had to do with my inability to speak up for myself and to tell truth aloud even if it meant to step on someone toes! But in the fof there was a reason for every suffering, everything was processed with the fof brain!
    About the medical bills dear Arthur, one time my sister in law told me I should not worry if my bills were paid by the state or county.
    She said is the tax money being used, that’s money from god to you. Do not feel bad!
    I believed her!
    You also told us a nice story about Richard Fazio giving you a bucket with squeegee to wash windows, was he the hairdresser? (Focazio?)

    Unoanimo:
    thank you for your post in response to mine.
    I can feel your support and warmth.
    But I have to be honest with you, I do not understand everything you say, but your words felt good.
    I am not from this country originally, that is why I do not catch on everything you say. I have also lost my ability to write fluently in my native language and am not as a good writer as I would like to be.
    In fact many times I read here and I just feel emotions!
    I sit down and try to reply: and nothing comes out easy and that makes sense.
    Also true that sometimes I feel I have to watch over my shoulder here as I write, there are some pretty quick and fierce bloggers here…
    But I come here everyday, this is a great opportunity to digest the big fof meal…
    A lot of memories are coming back…and this is so beautiful: I am remembering my life!


  197. Vera-mente #197: The Richard I knew worked at an up-scale hair salon and also waited tables. I dont know where he came from but I believe he went back to California. I wanted to say he was Venus/Mercury, but I’ll just say he was active.
    That day he was ironing his clothes he was preparing for his waiter’s job.

    And dont feel bad about language abilities. Most of the time I dont have a clue what anybody is saying. I just read and let the one word or one phrase or one paragraph and even a whole post instruct me.

    My philosophy is rather simple. Education begins at you first breath and ends in this life with your last. We cant learn everything nor do we need to.

    I believe a Fourth Way theory states that we are here to remember what we have forgotten.


  198. A Former Student # 187

    “Whose speechless song, being many, seeming one,
    Sings this to thee: ‘thou single wilt prove none.’ ”

    Beautiful!

    I of course should have listed Shakespeare with the other teachers of non-duality.

    Many thanks.


  199. Re: #118 Graduates:

    “Is your memory really so pathetically one-dimensional that it seemed to you that everyone was of a single mind in the Fellowship? You lie even to yourself. Everyone I met was entirely different than everyone else and many of them were highly critical of the Fellowship. There were some dumb church-like lackluster people, but more were bright as hell and about as under-the-thumb as gypsies.”

    You must have been in a different Fellowship than I was. I have never been with a group of people who were such conformists. Most Fellowship students are like parrots.


  200. In my previous post #118 should be #122.


  201. the Esoteric Sheik of Inner Confusion 193
    Since your IP address changes with each new connection to the internet a change in IP address will not mean that your comment will be moderated. A change in name and/or e-mail will. The only use that the IP address has for me is that I am able to blacklist people if they force me to by spamming or disrupting the discussion.

    ****************

    The problem with this plan is that in some cases people are going to be using the same ISP and their IP address is going to begin with same numbers, so that if you ban one then you will ban the others using that same provider.


  202. Graduates 172

    Thank you for your answer. I am under the impression, though, that you misinterpreted my post. In the hope of creating better communication, I am going to reformulate my point in a more personal way.

    I never thought I was in heaven while in the FOF, actually I was always aware of the weirdness of some of its beliefs. I was raised by atheist parents, who instilled me with a strong suspicion of all religions, superstitions, predictions and unverifiabe claims. What attracted me, like so many others, to the 4th way, is its emphasis on practical work and personal verification.

    When I joined the FOF I was 22, and so happy to have found a group of similarly minded people to work with. In the center where I had joined, meetings dealt with the practical aspects of the work, and students would talk about their daily observations and struggles. This sharing process was very useful to me at the time, and I still can remember and appreciate many of the insights I gained through it.

    When I moved to Renaissance, two years later, I was surprised by how seriously some older students talked (or should I say wiseacred?) about the fall of California (remember the “peak of the pain?”), or the fact that angels were going magically protect the property from Armageddon (I remember something about the winery being used as a nuclear shelter), or about Gorbachev’s birthmark on his forehead signifying the URSS was going to be the first to be hit by nuclear bombs, and many other strange ideas most of you are very familiar with. I could never really get into all that. Still, I loved the work, the place and many of the people in it, so I kept going for another eight years, during which I tried to keep my mind open and separate the wheat from the chaff.

    When you say, “you were in a crappy little cult that will dry up and fade away, this is how you spent some years of your life”, and “we are barely a footnote”, I couldn’t agree with you more. I am actually very thankful for having being spared (so far) the opportunity to participate in big scale carnage of historic proportions.

    Still, it seems to me realistic to point out how any human who has given up personal responsibility for his own beliefs and actions, and surrendered his/her will to a powerful authoritarian figure, can end up committing mistakes which he/she later may come to deeply regret, when one is finally able to reconnect with one’s personal conscience.

    The “obedient and compliant” attitude of the majority of the people is what ultimately allows any form of authoritarian control (religious or political to me it’s the same), to create such distruction. Obedience and compliance are taking place in Isis as we speak. People trusting their leader instead of their own inner voice. People renouncing to apply critical thinking and willing to believe any old nonsense. People holding on to a sense of belonging while at the same time creating fictitious enemies. People putting labels on other humans to avoid looking at them as equals. People leading secret lives for fear of being rejected. People trying to conform to a mold and being encouraged to avoid self expression. It does not matter if the external manifestations are not on the level of mass murder, the point being: inner corruption is a way of life in the FOF, and the ability to see this process and reverse it is crucial for everyone involved.

    You can definitely utilize less dramatic examples of this process, it’s up to you. For me, the Nazi Germany comparisons hit close to home. Being Italian, I have always wondered what attracted my fellow countrymen to Mussolini. Now I can say I have some firsthand experience of what it means to just “trust the big man” who is supposedly going to rid us of all our troubles. Not such a good idea, after all.

    Thanks again for all the great posts, people. I have to say I really dig unoanimo’s posts. I love taking a ride on his scratchy back while he freely roams across the snowy peaks and secret valleys of our common language. When I manage to hold on during the bumpy ride, there’s quite a landscape to be seen.

    Vera.mente 197, I agree with you: it’s beautiful to feel a new connection with one’s past, memories resurface, new insights are gained, we come to look at our past history in the light of our present understanding. That this is happening to us collectively is truly a gift.


  203. Laura 202

    I have zero argument with what you say, you put it perfectly. One point though:

    “The “obedient and compliant” attitude of the majority of the people is what ultimately allows any form of authoritarian control (religious or political to me it’s the same), to create such distruction. Obedience and compliance are taking place in Isis as we speak. People trusting their leader instead of their own inner voice. People renouncing to apply critical thinking and willing to believe any old nonsense. People holding on to a sense of belonging while at the same time creating fictitious enemies. People putting labels on other humans to avoid looking at them as equals. People leading secret lives for fear of being rejected. People trying to conform to a mold and being encouraged to avoid self expression. It does not matter if the external manifestations are not on the level of mass murder, the point being: inner corruption is a way of life in the FOF, and the ability to see this process and reverse it is crucial for everyone involved.”

    *******************

    You could apply what you are saying to almost any workplace environment, people twist themselves in order to be seen as cooperative and they are motivated by personal ambition. For the sake of some recognition people are willing to accept any degree of corruption or distortion of “reality.”


  204. 203 Graduates

    Well said, graduates. I see our friendship is making progress. In fact lately I have found myself unable to work for long periods of time in any workplace environment, as I have become increasingly and unpleasantly allergic to sheepish behaviour. Now I am trying to make it on my own. When I realized that it was becoming ever harder for me to obey and comply, I had no choice but to remove myself from living in such conditions. You may say I could have separated from all the unpleasantness, but for me it is a matter of health. Everyone else out there, I would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.


  205. Hi guys, just a reminder (again):
    If you wish to be included in ex-members Contact List – please send the info you wish to list to
    malaec@optonline.net
    I have received lots of e-mails already, and list is getting big. I am making it in a simple Excel file, and will soon e-mail it to all who are listed.
    (I can’t believe so many people have left just in 2007! Wow.)

    The intentions behind creating such a list: to help like-minded people stay connected, to locate friends, to arrange for a possible place to stay while travelling, to announce jobs, to ask for help, to invite people for dinners, concerts and other events, etc. Friendship and connections don’t have to dissappear once you quit FOF!
    Most people include their name and e-mail address, also: phone, address, years in FOF, website – whatever you feel like listing.
    We are also now testing a new website “Greater Fellowship” that was started by Michael J. where we all can have a virtual community and stay connected. There is an opportunity to post pictures, videos, jobs, stories etc. This site works by invitation only, so it’s pretty secure – you only invite your friends. I’ll keep you posted how it develops.

    “One of the great things in the Fellowship of Friends was the network of friends throughout the world. We still have the friends, just need the network and I hope this contributes to it.” Michael J.

    With love,
    Janna

    Send your thoughts and/or info to:
    malaec@optonline.net


  206. Graduates 118: “Everyone I met was entirely different than everyone else and many of them were highly critical of the Fellowship. There were some dumb church-like lackluster people, but more were bright as hell and about as under-the-thumb as gypsies.”

    I agree with this.

    I’m not sure if this is still true, but for a long time, there was a fraternity of irreverent members who enjoyed making negative remarks about Robert’s behavior, or about the predictions, or about the ark, or who enjoyed making fun of “good student acts”, and so on. For example, one guy would make the sign of the cross (with a little smile on his face) whenever someone mentioned Higher Forces. Of course, the sarcasm was limited to small, private gatherings or to one-on-one conversations. Usually not in mixed company.

    So, keeping in mind that the members of this fraternity are long-time fof students, and that they are STILL fof students, my question is…

    What are they thinking?

    Well, one thought is that “being critical” shows how serious they are about their inner work. It shows that they aren’t deterred by all of the problems in the Fellowship. Sure, many students are being fooled by all of this, but THEY aren’t. They know what’s going on. They are nobody’s fool. Despite all of the nonsense, they are strong, and they hold steadfast to their work. The denying force of the “school’s weirdness” does not stop them from pursuing their aim to awaken. They have passed the test.

    So I think that’s part of it… Part of the criticism is sincere. They’re confused; they’re concerned about the problems like all of us are. They know that something is seriously wrong. But an occasional critical comment presents a facade. And it creates the illusion that free speech is allowed. Or at least maybe that’s part of it.

    But so far, they remain in the group. So there’s a certain line they haven’t been unwilling to cross. In a way, that’s the ultimate criticism of the group — leaving.

    ———————————————————–

    Graduates 203: “You could apply what you are saying to almost any workplace environment, people twist themselves in order to be seen as cooperative and they are motivated by personal ambition. For the sake of some recognition people are willing to accept any degree of corruption or distortion of ‘reality.’ ”

    I also agree. Similar to the above, there are many of us who will say negative things about the company we work for, but only in private, and never in front of the boss or the boss’s boss. And the same type of fraternity that I describe above exists in a lot of companies. Of course, members of that fraternity generally leave the company, or get fired.


  207. on June 15, 2007 at 6:27 pm formerfofer

    SandraC wrote:

    “My impression from RB’s story about his ‘accident’ was that it took place well before he met Bonita and ’started the school.’”

    Also Veronicapoe’s Fellowship timeline (post 155) makes no mention of an accident after Robert started the school in 1970, neither is there any such sugggestion of it from Bonita or Stella accounts of those early years. So it’s fairly safe to assume that his accident occurred prior to Jan 1970.

    So the question remains: why did he tell Stella and Harold, who joined his group in July 1970 that he was a “budding man no5” yet make a point of showing SandraC his driving licence in 1973 and telling her that his accident had awakened him as a man no5, an accident which occurred sometime prior to 1970?

    Stella’s RB quote would seem to be corroborated by Walter Tanner’ recollection (message 65) that “He crystallized his higher emotional center in front of the fire on the deck at Nepenthe, Highway 1 in Big Sur. No date was given, but this was between the founding of the Fellowship and the crystallization of 1976.” I assume Nepenthe is a restaurant? Hotel? Anyway, according to Veronicapoe’s timeline, a trip was made to Big Sur 21/22nd October 1970.

    Does anyone have any further information about Robert’s claim to have become a Man no5? I wonder, were there any descriptions of that experience in the early journals or perhaps someone made a written record of those very early meetings?

    formerfofer
    (1978-1992)


  208. on June 15, 2007 at 6:31 pm Was KathleenW

    2b, 206

    “I’m not sure if this is still true, but for a long time, there was a fraternity of irreverent members . . .”
    ———————————-

    Another reason for this might be that it provides a release valve. I went through a period of having dinner in someone’s “caravan” rather than at the lodge. We would listen to non-approved music and skirt the edge of naughtiness with commentary about various things. In a way, it helped make some things bearable for awhile longer.

    It was also probably the beginning of the end. Actually, the beginning of the beginning.

    Retrospectively, I think the true beginning of the end was the night I sang “Drop Kick Me Jesus Through the Goalposts of Life” by Bobby Bear, in the kitchen as a formal center dinner was underway in the dining room. It was sung quietly from around a corner though, and I doubt anyone but the kitchen staff heard.


  209. on June 15, 2007 at 6:34 pm Veronicapoe

    It’s Harold Wirk’s timeline, not Veronicapoe’s.


  210. on June 15, 2007 at 6:52 pm You-me-us-they

    To Sheik:
    Appreciative of the work done here even if I had a great itme with the no moderation real time, perhaps even “because” of the strange happening, former page 11.
    It is cleaner now, sor sure!

    To us all:

    I am interestingly challenged by the non-dual/advaita thing.

    Being in the present as a “condition”.
    No way out of the present!

    Where is the challenge, where is the interest?

    Little “me”,
    so often called “observer”,
    with its taste for effort, struggle and denial ready to “party”,
    is at the door…

    “The moon
    Covers her face with both hands

    And can’t bear
    To look.”

    Hafiz

    Gratitude.


  211. 208 Was KathleenW

    That’s probably a better explanation than mine.


  212. on June 15, 2007 at 7:18 pm Kid Shelleen

    Re: Bob-a-reno’s accident.

    I think it was Stan the Man who told me that the accident happened while Bob was with A-horn. He said that Bob told him that the stitches in his head formed a peace sign. A little C-influence joke. And if I recall correctly, when the injury was shown to A-horn he patted Bob on the head and made some sort of condescending “so there’s your little wound” type remark.

    Of course, that story could be totally mythological.


  213. Bruce, #168
    I’m still trying to figure out the significance of the squirrel gone nuts story. Am I missing something or is this just a product of your sometimes obscure sense of humour?
    Christina


  214. re Laura # 204.

    precisely my experience. I was willing to submit but my health appeared to be heading back to my fof history, sick.

    It seems that the amount of guts required to leave is proportional to the amount it takes to join. On the other hand if one has nothing to lose, as we were told, but in reality, joining or leaving both are easier.

    Re. this popular quote, does anyone know who the conscious being who uttered it was or is?
    ” A hard head makes a soft behind.”

    In appreciation, Renald


  215. on June 15, 2007 at 8:41 pm Veronicapoe

    Kid Shelleen said,

    > I think it was Stan the Man who told me that the accident
    > happened while Bob was with A-horn. He said that Bob
    > told him that the stitches in his head formed a peace
    > sign. A little C-influence joke.

    Starting a cult is one of the traditionally recognized sequelae of traumatic brain injury, as I recall.


  216. This is pure fantasy but I would like to be in a small porch with four bottles of white lighting.

    One bottle for Robert Burton, one bottle for me, one bottle for for George Ivanovich Gurdjieff and one bottle for somebody on this blog.


  217. Xena 213
    I think the punchline is in that last sentence.


  218. 213 Christina…

    the latter, as you guessed.


  219. The browning of the fields came early this year, be ready my friends, it’s gonna be a hot one this summer. Also, watch where you’re stepping, the rattlesnakes are everywhere, its the baby ones that are the most dangerous, they do not give out a portion of their venom, based on their size and hence, vulnerability, they give it all to you at once…

    And if you find a spider’s web that, to the touch, feels ten times stronger than most, that’s a black widow’s silk, fascinating to touch, to feel its almost unbelievable tenacity, yet, home to she who holds Time’s unforgiving ruby hour glass…

    Yes, humilty even works with snakes and spiders.

    __________________________

    Hello Post #133/A former student ~

    Yes, let’s make ‘Jerry Brown’ a mantra of sorts…

    I wonder if Anthony Storrs’s book “Feet of Clay”, is what RB was referencing when he told his first student “I know someone who does not have feet of clay.” (?)

    Is it not ironic that Cult Books are actually used as ‘How to be a better cult leader’ manuals?
    _______________________________

    Hello Post #141/Yesri baba ~

    “squishy toy” and “Smoke ray glasses”

    Hummm… You shop at Toy’s R Us too?

    If you’ve never seen a ‘greased pig contest’, if there’s a county fair in your area, check it out or host one, its gotta be one of the greatest underdeveloped sports on this planet!
    ________________________________

    Hello Post #143/Kathleen W

    Thank you for your general question; though these days
    I would rather ask you to please, be more specific, I need to keep a string of focus, particularly when giving out records of these sorts.

    Kathleen, I want you to know that everything I speak about concerning that subject is from my experience, it is not theoretical or wishful or aspirational: to me I would rather map out how to get a snowball in hell from one side to the other, than to discuss people’s lifetimes to come and previous lifetimes.

    I recall that I once met a couple, they told me that they were reincarnated pyramid builders, that they had found one another in this lifetime ‘sorta by intuition’… I looked at them both, kinda like cows must see things, binocular-ly, and said ‘And, so what?’…

    All hell breaks loose when we love the beings within, in behind the Armani billboard, there’s a real man with a bucket of glue, a beautifully made sandwich and a big 32oz Budweiser, wearing Dock Martin boots, dressed in brown coveralls and in love with the expectation of walking with his girlfriend after work on the beach…

    I love the one behind the billboard and must.

    ________________________________

    Hello Post #159/ Wake up little suzy wake up

    Dear Suzy,

    Fortunately for me I do not believe that Whalerider actually found the toaster that he assigned me to find:

    it is my general belief that all kitchen appliances have a fourth dimensional twin, a sort of surrogate buddy, some people call this a ‘guardian angel’, I call it a backup toaster…

    So, it should not surprise you that I must add your name to the Howard Carter’s famed reputation-list, a list that I have developed to intentionally create more time to search for ‘said toaster’ than to play ‘Hello Mr. Tennis Ball, feel my Racket’ …

    I believe you’ll find this list comfortably ‘hammock like’, not too far from the tennis court, so don’t worry, there’s plenty of back hands on this blog site to play with… I’ve got to find that toaster!

    P.S. You wrote ~

    “Unoanimo, how the hell do you know what Meher Baba can do?”
    __________

    “… can do?” ‘Can do’ indeed my friend, can do, never ‘did do’, not for Meher Baba, the lighthouse for lighthouses.

    I feel your energy Suzy, it flows through me like a thousand moths on crack cocaine and I am grateful for being such a silly porch light at times, but hey, someone has to show the drunken lovers stumbling in late at night the door’s landing, the door, the knob… Yet, you have to find the key, I cannot see under the flower pot.

    Love to you and your anger.

    _______________________

    Hello Posts #162,203/Graduates

    Hello Graduates ~

    Is that you Elena ?

    I hope, if it is you, that your new residence near the ocean is giving you the objective solace the ocean can do.

    It is an interesting vision to see that when a blogger, like ‘Laura’ for instance symbolically says ~

    “I agree with your pain, you have my permission to be painful for I too have such permissiveness within my lifestyle towards external ‘things’ that deny me to define myself as a reactionary being, defined by contradiction and looking for trouble, doubt, weaknesses and areas to improve upon, so let’s be friends, we can justify one another’s sense of independence by the certainties of our primordial sensitivities, which is actually just the maternal wishing the paternal to be more like it…

    yet, what is a ‘real’ friend, but someone who does not entirely settle for the friendship’s successes, but rather edges closer to that area of love which cannot show itself through obvious agreements and coincidental likenesses; takes it into the meadow of perhaps a disagreement that is only settled when you can drop it, so to experience that space between yourselves, after all, without that space, you would be One, yes?

    ____________________________

    Hello Post #188/Shelley M.

    Hello Shelley,

    Can you post a link to any video recording of “Talking With Angels”? Do they exist, do you not wish to offer them up to YouTube?

    Steven S., is a blessing upon you, Love is indeed a third person, beyond our sparkling palaces it swims in pure oceans of molten twenty four karat gold.

    _________________________

    Hello Post #179/Former student ~

    Hello,

    You asked about John G.,

    He’s doing pretty well; we’re all aging and Time does no favors unto its own roundabout demises.

    He’s beautiful, getting more and more so with every day passing,

    deep down, I sense, by having made many current eye to eye contacts with him, that he is no Ole Fool, he’s here in Oregon House because Here is here, that is all…

    He is one Being that Robert Burton cannot flatter with obvious approval of what has already occurred without Robert himself having proposed it,

    yet, as you know, planets can wiseacre so deep as to think that satellites would not exist without their gravitational gravitas.

    For he himself, John G., has paid a deep price to approve of himself, far beyond the wiseacring of The Usurpers of The Young at Heart and Coconut milk.

    That’s my take, BTW.

    _____________________________

    Hello Post #185/ A former student

    Gurdjieff had more than one teacher. There is a book describing all those known, yet, it is my sense he had at many more:

    see, he was a genuine ‘teacher-seeker’ he did not follow the one-god-law, he collected himself through many who were correspondingly willing to give to him as he was willing to get, there is an entire book that could be written on

    ‘Corresponding spiritual acknowledgment, the trials and freedoms of silent recognition that You is I.’

    The Fellowship of Friends still know nothing about this: turn a pyramid upside down in the sand and it does the ‘right thing’ according to its ‘form’,

    it hides its Beginning.

    ________________________

    To Posts #172, 173, 206.

    You wrote ~

    “People that were part of the murderous Nazis were at least a significant part of history, we are barely a footnote.”

    “Damn it, I still admire that rascal Robert for what he gets away with.”

    “The denying force of the “school’s weirdness” does not stop them from pursuing their aim to awaken. They have passed the test.”
    ____________________

    Are you all smokin the same draperies?

    If so, I can only hope they belong to the ones in Robert Burton’s bedroom, so that people might catch a glimpse of their ‘dividends’, while they’re going to a rose garden aria have sung their conscience deeper under the re-circulatory fountain waters of The Fellowship of Friends.

    Gee wiz you guys,

    Captain Kangaroo is dead BTW.

    Personally I thought Mr. Greenjeans waz tha dude!

    __________________________

    Hello Post #157/Whalerider

    Hello Whalerider ~

    I sense a bit of poking lately from you, waz up?

    Perhaps your heart wishes to meet me, could that be it?

    Who knows, I do sense that,

    often, when, what we ‘think’ we love does not respond to our thought, we make it the enemy, yet, too, it often goes unnoticed that we never really spoke to that person directly, never fully revealed our imaginary picture beside the real Now-probability,

    there’s something within everyone which would rather think about heaven than to verify its application and true, real-time occurring prerequisites.

    You wrote ~

    “#95 “I’ll be that inconspicuous one with the samurai sword in near the far-right-back of the pet food section, you know the spot, in between the ice maker and the unisex bathroom. Just chillin, if you know what I mean.”

    #134 “No thanks my friend, I do not wish to have a blog assigned role name tagged to my naked breast.”

    You mean other than the role you pin to your own naked breast. Ever hear of a Sun dance? It’s not done for fun. It’s a choice we make for ourselves. But you are kinda squishy to hold…”
    ______________________

    Surely my anonymous friend, you don’t really, with any deep, personal sincerity, believe that the role I have assigned myself is that of a ninja hiding in the shadows of the Oregon House Grocery, do you?

    I think your really stretching the rubber band here Whalerider… All that ninja stuff is called ‘prose exhaust’, it assists me in keeping all this real time literature alive, vivid alive, like an almost smiling infant’s face,

    in other words, when hospitals have on hire full time real-clowns, people will start getting better; yet, hey, do the hospitals want people to get better?

    I wonder, I also wonder if Robert Burton wants to graduate anyone or is it that he cannot since he himself has no unfurl-able degree of conscience to see himself in others, not in the mirror of their hypnotized eye-twinkle?

    If I’m “squishy” then? Use your scroll bar my friend, that’s what conscious ‘doing’ is all about.

    Meher Baba once said ~ “Many problems are solved by avoiding them.”

    If your a butcher, its probably best not to take the lion’s route on your way home at night.

    Take a shower, change your clothes, call a taxi.

    To me, to love means to hold everything as if it was meant to be in my hands by my own doing, even if its roadkill.

    ___________________________________

    Love to you all.


  220. No, no punchline, just a nonsequitur diversion (that apparently wasn’t that humorous).


  221. #210 you-me-us-they

    “where is the challenge, where is the interest?”

    Inside the present (you)


  222. One wishful thought.
    Maybe we can solve this separation in an amicable manner.
    Each one of us gets one small memento from the golden age: a Meissen cup, a pair of pruning shears, a Ming chair, a piece of Tupperware. Also, a compilation of oldies but goldies from our Beloved Leader.
    Robert gets a condo in Vegas where he spends the last strech of his career, Sunset Boulevard style, performing as a Casino impersonator.
    David Lynch gets to do the movie.
    Sufjan Stevens will hopefully write a song about it.
    And most definitely someone will write the book.

    Love


  223. It’s pretty simple really. Kind of obvious looking back on it now, from a bird’s eye perspective. There was this youngling, misfit, who had always felt different from other people, freshly arrived to the big city and living independently for the first time. Many people’s story. I’d always been ashamed of my spiritual interests, which I’d been attracted to since age 12 and maybe in some form before that. My parents were comfortable in their formal religion, they did not feel pressed to investigate it further, merely to conform. It seemed to me that no one my age could relate to spirituality, that all they cared about were parties, drugs and drinking. I had tried to get integrated into the youth culture, but then, with almost no social skills, I decided I didn’t want it anyway. It was too painful, false and unnecessary. So I felt very special and above it all. Yeah, I was better than all of “them”.

    I’d been in contact with several spiritual groups, not too many. It was very exciting to come to the city and find out that there are people here who actually use words like ‘karma’ in their everyday conversation and seem to share the same spiritual orientation as me. I was desperate for approval. Once I saw a poster for an open meeting of Gurdjieff-Ouspensky centers, that was it. I hardly knew anything about Gurdjieff or Ouspensky, but I had seen their bookmarks in books that I liked, and so I thought it must be something really good. “Now accepting students”, it said, creating the impression of a short window of opportunity. In retrospect I was very proud of myself for noticing such a small inconspicuous black-and-white poster among all the flashy advertisements. I felt I must have been fated to see it. But I was a perfect match, looking for something secret and quiet, existing alongside the current of humanity unnoticed. Like me. I remember feeling that, whatever happens, I have to go to this meeting, because it would change my life.

    Everything they said instantly made sense. People react mechanically; identification is loss of identity, negative emotions are not necessary, obstacles to being awake, don’t believe but verify. I was quite self-conscious about how mechanical I must appear to these refined beings. I knew I was joining, I knew that I had been fearing all my life and that for once I needed to trust. I bought the appropriate attire and with 20% of my total income showed up for the first meeting. 15 minutes early.

    I was a pretty scared little creature back then. Thinking back, it must have been scary to be around me, nervous as I was. I guess I just needed a mother. And the center directors and older students adopted me, encouraged me, hugged me, sustained eye contact without judgment or expectation. I was loved. And I was soaking it like a sun-dried sponge. For the first time in my life, I belonged. These people were my family. Heh, I can’t believe it, I still want to cry as I write this. I suppose it’s obvious that I didn’t have a very good relationship with my own parents. From a young age I had been told that God only knows where I came from, because I was nothing like them. So I quite identified with being weird and deviant and isolated. I was tough on the outside, but boy, was I squishy on the inside. I just melted when these people accepted me in their little circle. They did not respond to my false and vain acts that I had built up over the years to facilitate some sort of limping interaction with people, and that was a mountain off my shoulders. I knew I didn’t have to pretend any more. I was home.

    In that first year, several striking shifts in perception happened where I knew that I was “seeing myself objectively” for a few seconds. I had been taught that this was the third state of consciousness, and it reaffirmed for me that the whole system we are learning must be correct and that the school must be right. In later years, I wondered why that didn’t happen any more if I was progressing in the work, why is everyone talking about third states that they’re having all the time, if I know I had them and they are extremely rare. It could not be that I was not making any headway, so I eventually and grudgingly came to accept the explanation that my overall state must by now be so close to the third state that when third state happens, I don’t perceive it as such a huge leap any more.

    I noted after several months that I had been able to accept myself, that I was now quite happy with who I was, and that the meetings which used to be so full of revelations were now a place where I could sleep and snore, listening to the same points of view over and over. I had come to the realization that to stay in the school, I must change my aim. Must find a better aim. I’m not sure if I clearly defined it but I think it had something to do with serving the school.

    It was a small center and within months I was made bookkeeper and given another important “third line octave”. One or two traveling teachers praised “my work” and “my essence”. I was beginning to lead meetings. The oldest student in the center, bless her heart, mentioned that she felt if anyone was going to become conscious, it was going to be me. My vanity and self-importance flourished.

    The first time I accidentally discovered the money and sex situation of the Fellowship was after 8 or 9 months in the school. My world started spinning. What I believed to be the ultimate good, what had given me so much and had proven so true, was staring me in the face as corrupt at its core. I was not able to view the positive and negative aspects of the Fellowship as separate. I wanted to defend it all, and yet I was afraid I was supporting the wrong thing.

    I felt I needed to take the matter up with the older student who I was closest to at the time. He gave me no real answers but rather expressed dismay at why I was asking those questions. I went home and wrote all the I’s out on paper. Then I slept on it. And in a couple of days, I was able to revisit these I’s and see them all as “just negativity”, “only I’s”, “judgment”, “identification”, all these things I was taught not to have. It was a relief, I didn’t have to do anything. I concluded that if I had such an extreme reaction, it must be because there is some material there for me to work on myself, some identification to transform. External reality was to be neglected, internal reality was all that mattered. Especially because there were all these good people around me who knew all the same things, even joked about them, and yet they found it valuable to stay in the school. If they can, so can I. After all, where was I going to go to, back to life where people were strangers that I couldn’t relate to?

    When the next new student came along saying that she had “friction” with what people say about our school and about Robert, I found myself defending my choice as reasonable, by claiming how she can plainly see that all those people who have left the school and are complaining, are just negative and identified, and have lost the basic principles of the work. And she has found it useful to this day to resort to that attitude, and so we all proceeded to tacitly conspire that we would perform self-calming for years to come.

    I must have bought into this “conscious being” thing at some point. I remember first meeting the teacher after 2 years, being invited to a dinner with him – this was back when you still got invited and didn’t have to pay 200 dollars to attend. The whole charade with evening gowns and tuxedos and concert before the dinner and expensive china embarrassed me, it was not an environment I knew how to behave in. I spent the evening mostly ashamed that I could be so mechanical and instinctive to actually want to eat the nice food while the others were enjoying the teaching to the extent that food was irrelevant, all being in a higher state except me. Oh boy. I don’t remember anything that Robert said, but I remember trying to not have “mechanical reactions” to his I’s, and trying to stop thoughts and be awake. When I got back I was asked if I had verified that he was conscious, and I responded – “Is that a joke?” Though I did have my fears how, when he kissed my forehead, he would be able to see with his all-mighty God-like perception all the bad judgment I had about him. But mostly I felt guilty that I was not impressed by meeting Robert. So I spent the following years going to his events and hoping that one day I would get it, one day I would see how great and brilliant he was, thinking that it was just me and my sleep preventing me from seeing the truth and experiencing the wonderful states that everybody enters when they are around him. I actually envied those students who were able to say that they verified Robert was their teacher and what a high being he was and so forth. It made their life so much easier.

    I had, let’s say, some “authority issues” when meeting Robert. Still have them to some extent. Anyway, as “struggle” is built into the system and “going against the machine” is fundamental to the fourth way, I persevered in order to become free from my subjectivity. I made myself believe that we were a conscious school, and at those times I felt good. As soon as there were any true experiences of deeper understanding and love, I hastened to ascribe them to the influence of the Fellowship and the great fortune of being in a school, to reassure myself that it was worth it, to repeat what everyone else was saying about how beautiful Apollo is and how we are evolving. The teacher had some crazy ideas, but it was better not to think about them too much and focus on what’s relevant for your work. In any event the Fellowship provided a fairly safe environment where I could experiment with being human and entering relationships with a variety of other humans who were not supposed to hurt me, an experience that I would not have had in my regular lonely life before the school.

    Early on my center director once asked me what my biggest problem in life was. After some thought, I had formulated it as “I don’t know what I want”, and that has been a recurring theme in my Fellowship career. To get down to the core of it, I did not trust myself, so I always needed other people to tell me what was good for me, what I should want and do. “They” always knew better. “They” even knew what my feelings were and told me what I was experiencing, and I totally believed it. With no direct experience of reality to compare against, how will you know what’s true?

    Eventually I landed in the role of center director (as I believe Shelley likes to say, at the ripe old age of 24, wise beyond my years), and I got to tell other people what they should and should not do. Being the voice of the School for everybody, expressing opinions I did not hold, deep down, and delivering requests that made me cringe, but that was not important, I had to serve the school and fulfill my role. “They” knew better, and I was just an instrument. The best way to lie is to make yourself believe that you’re telling the truth. So I applied a thick paint of coat over my conscience and convinced myself that it was good. Here we were, all trying to make the best of the situation, to be creative within the framework of the material that was given to us. We needed to make the center come together and produce work. We had some good times and sharing, as long as we kept focusing on all that was positive about the school. And fortunately we were fairly relaxed as a center.

    I asked myself many times over the last few years what was keeping me in the school and always came to the conclusion that it was habit and fear of being alone. I knew it was not healthy. But I didn’t have the courage to turn my life upside down. I kept trying to find reasons why the Fellowship is useful, and hanging on to those. But the contradiction was making me sick. And it was making me depressed. I’m not surprised to hear how many people take anti-depressants in the Fellowship; depression happens when you freeze yourself from experiencing feelings and thoughts that you think you shouldn’t be having. Not wanting to look deeply at what’s wrong but continuing to pretend that everything is fine.

    I honestly tried to apply Robert’s dualistic good-and-evil teaching in an attempt to make it fit and find value in it. It’s hard when you force your own insights onto another man’s scaffolding, especially if he’s coming from a completely different place psychologically, and you don’t realize it. For a while I had my own work I’s that helped inspire me, based on what I knew about myself. I dropped them because I was told that Robert’s 30 work I’s are objective knowledge applicable to everyone. And then I struggled and kept believing in the 4th way maxim that struggle is good.

    This blog was the last stone pulled out of the dam that released the flood. We can all stop pretending now. The emperor is naked, and what a relief. No, you don’t have to be impressed by Robert, and no, you don’t have to believe that what he’s saying is objective knowledge. Yes, you can finally trust yourself. You’ve grown up and you have the authority to allow yourself to put away childish dependence on a divine leader. No need to keep looking over your shoulder when he will catch up with you. When the optical illusion reveals itself and you can see both the vase and the faces at one time, there is no going back.

    Still digesting and integrating the experience, as you can see, but meanwhile I’m packing my bags. Well, thanks for reading, if you did.

    Good luck

    “Afoot and light-hearted I take to the open road,
    Healthy, free, the world before me,
    The long brown path before me leading wherever I choose.

    Henceforth I ask not good-fortune, I myself am good-fortune,
    Henceforth I whimper no more, postpone no more, need nothing,
    Done with indoor complaints, libraries, querulous criticisms,
    Strong and content I travel the open road. …

    Here the profound lesson of reception, nor preference nor denial. …

    From this hour I ordain myself loos’d of limits and imaginary lines,
    Going where I list, my own master total and absolute,
    Listening to others, considering well what they say,
    Pausing, searching, receiving, contemplating,
    Gently,but with undeniable will, divesting myself of the holds that would hold me.
    I inhale great draughts of space,
    The east and the west are mine, and the north and the south are mine. …

    Now if a thousand perfect men were to appear it would not amaze me,
    Now if a thousand beautiful forms of women appear’d it would not astonish me.

    Now I see the secret of the making of the best persons,
    It is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth. …

    Allons! to that which is endless as it was beginningless,…
    To know the universe itself as a road, as many roads, as roads for traveling souls.”
    W.W.


  224. I was reviewing past post’s and found
    #1 wake up little suzy wake up
    Yes very true, my times at Renaissance were full of wonder, friendship and essence.

    #18 by Cyclops. He challenged others to research his claim that 6 Jewish Family’s controlled the media. So I did the search he suggested. Guess what the number one site was “Jew Watch”. Yes indeed likely to be an unbiased site. So what are the six families? Actually the claim is that it is 6 mega -corporations dominate the world media. Then it is claimed that these corporations are Jewish owned.

    http://www.mediachannel.org/ownership/chart.shtml

    About the ownership of corporations. Few corporations are as simple as those owned by first generation developers like Apple, Microsoft and Hewlett-Packard.
    Many years ago I read a paper entitled “Stock ownership and the control of corporations” published by the University of Chicago Press. I suggest this as a useful reading. In the United States because of tax laws and laws which attempt to restrict the creation of a hereditary wealthy class ownership is often hidden. For example a Family like the Dupont’s has trust’s for many family members, what is common is for the oldest family members to immediately begin transferring asset’s to the youngest while retaining control of the asset’s. This avoids inheritance tax’s as it is taxed at a lower gift tax. It also avoids inheritance taxes for as many as three generations. These families control foundations and investments in Banks, Insurance Companies and other financial entities all of which own stock but the ownership is reported separately from individual asset’s.. Often one family member such as David Rockerfeller in the case of the Rockerfellers serves as the family head of finance. In the case of the Duponts they effectively control General Motors without a clear ownership of a majority of stock.. If this does not make sense it is all the more reason to study economics and ownership of capital in general.This is of value because it would require someone with a PHD. level understanding of economics and research skills to detail the ownership and controll of these six mega media corporations. It is niave to credit them with some individual will.

    Why go back and rehash what has passed? One reason is that Cyclops does not seem unreasonable Yet using a site called “Jew Watch ” as a research resource indicates both a lack of research skills and naiveté. We live in an amazing age in which more information is available then at any time. The challenge today is in finding and filtering the information.
    Here is an example I found in checking that I was correct in saying that David Rockerfeller is head of the family ( since 1992 his son also David has been taking over) The Rockerfellers are the controlling interest in The Chase Manhattan bank and are of German Protestant heritage not Jewish.

    A quote from the senior David Rockerfeller at a meeting of the world affairs counsel ( funny the link is now gone)
    “We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost 40 years……..It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supernational
    sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries.”

    Why bother with this? What does it have to do with the FOF. When I was a member of the FOF I believed that incorporating it as a religion was a convenient fiction. After reviewing the Canon’s and reading various stories of how “challenges” to Robert’s authority are dealth with it seems to me that Robert knew in advance of his intent to defraud the membership by posing as a celebrate spiritual Teacher. A general naiveté about Financial affairs also seems to be an aspect of the FOF.

    In an earlier post I questioned as to why the form of a co-op would not be more appropriate. If there are currant members reading this then this is a question for you. Why not a Co-op? Why not let members share in the ownership of what they build. Is it fair that anyone who is offended at Robert’s sexuality and makes it known be able to be forced to leave for questioning his divinity? In fact does the legal status of Robert as an unquestionable divine guide fit in with the ideas of the 4th way at all? How many of you members past and present understood that this was a contract that they were agreeing to when they joined. Have any of you seen a copy of the Canon’s that is a legal and binding contract with each member?

    Does anyone have any opinion on this?


  225. Thank you very much Veronicapoe for your posting of important facts on the FOF leadership.


  226. to #219 unoanimo
    Thank You for the information on John Graham. He was the director of the San Diego center when I joined also I lived in a tent on a hill above the lodge with him for a while probably around 1976..
    Personal e-mail
    Scottduncan@frys.com
    4th way discussion group
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StillPoint/
    Photo’s and artwork
    http://community.webshots.com/user/scottduncan


  227. 224 A former student.
    Are you kidding of course they are biased!
    I have left any racial discussion behind.
    The link below is not about race its about Media Ownership.

    http://www.wikiprotest.com/index.php?title=Media_Ownership_in_America

    My take on the financial structure of the pseudo school is to suggest to students to try to make it as you suggest a co-op, But we all know how unlikely this is.
    Are you familiar with the “work” idea of accounts?
    Plato said “They deem him their worst enemy who tells them the truth”
    I wish you well and am not being ironic.
    Cy.


  228. cyclops:

    Your link gives us this:

    “We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes.”

    These are the words of the journalist, John Swinton, spoken at a dinner given in his honor in 1880. John Swinton had been the editor of the New York Times during the civil war, and was one of the most esteemed journalists of his day. (For a discussion that carefully validates the essential accuracy of these remarks see Rense.com at )

    How little some things change! Well over a century later our journalists still “fawn at the feet of mammon.” Swinton’s manner of speaking is no longer in fashion. It strikes us as quaint. But his indictment of the press is as applicable today as it was when these words were originally spoken.”

    And in relation to this I refer you to this:

    http://www.rense.com/general20/yes.htm

    “I got email from Jay Salter, one of my readers, who had come across the http://www.snowcrest.net/zepp/Other_Voices/Swinton.htm John Swinton vignette in my “Other Voices” section. He forwarded it to a journalist’s discussion area, asking for feedback.

    One journalist there, Jeff McMahon, made this response to Jay:

    “Yeah, I’ll take that bait.

    “The last time I saw that phony quote Swinton was identified as the “chief of staff” of the New York SUN, the date was 1853, and where it now says “I am paid weekly,” it then said “I am paid $150 a week.” Which is, actually, about how much I made in journalism. Then some liar realized that newspapers don’t have chiefs of staff, at least the editorial departments don’t, and if you’re going to lie you might as well do it big, so they made him the EDITOR IN CHIEF of the New York TIMES in NINETEEN 53. Unfortunately, the editor of the New York Times in 1953 was Turner Catledge.

    So, the quote itself betrays a need for journalists because otherwise people who spread such propaganda might go unchecked. ”

    As to the above reference to “mammon” in the linked material, I advise the curious to do a google search of “mammon jew)”. You’ll be enlightened by the various Aryan and white supremicist sites that equate Jews and mammon as one.

    Still trying to slip in that horse shit aren’t you cyclops?


  229. Are all the posts being moderated again?


  230. Or just responses to cyclops?


  231. Bruce 227

    Are all the posts being moderated again?

    &&&&&&&&&&

    Trouble posting? Try:

    http://fofgraduates.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/graduates-of-the-fellowship-of-friends/


  232. I have posted my response to cyclops on the other blog, as it, so far, has not appeared here.


  233. Hi Sheik,

    Am I correctly assuming that you have incorporated some new moderators, and that you haven’t had time to give them the standard orientation lecture about being over zealous with their “moderation”?


  234. to 191 Yersi Baba writes
    “For a month or so stop any effort to self-remember or divide attention or “take in impressions” or not express negative emotions or anything like that. Instead, whenever you can think of it just return to a sensing of your common presence.”
    OK having done this for at least 10 years then returned to the system what next?
    I am not being flippant. I have severe difficulties at this point in being open to anything other than others experience. Call it willfullness, I do, call it a negative attitude, it is. I am sensitve to anything other than the first person. As until you or anyone else can get in here and operate the controls all I am interested in is what works for you.

    223 Traveler
    Thank you for this heartfelt and honest post. Thank You for taking the time to write this out so clearly.
    to post #204 Laura
    It has been many years since I left the FOF if there are two things I feel I’ve gained that are the most value they are
    One- The ability to smile and nod at someone while internally not believing or registering anything they say.
    Two- The ability to sit and act attentive and listen.
    Both are still difficult so I doubt I was that good at it while a student.
    I have become better at expressing negativity The way the FOF teaches this was not particularly profitable for me. As a Solar type I have little automatic “:NO” when I don’t like something it is very hard for me to say so. I lack certain social skills as sometimes it feels like I have to shift into another group of I’s or personality to say “NO” and this is a violent personality that is very fear based.
    206 2b writes
    “but for a long time, there was a fraternity of irreverent members who enjoyed making negative remarks about Robert’s behavior, or about the predictions, or about the ark, or who enjoyed making fun of “good student acts”, and so on.”
    while I was student in the 1970’s there was a barn that had multiple uses. It was not unusual for those engaged in outdoor octaves to sometimes drink a little alcohol and speak of “Uncle Bob” and his pals at the Blake cottage. ( although some of the people were one and the same) As well as such jokes as Linda Kaplan, almost anything one could say about her was a joke. But a few people hanging out at the barn is not the same as the freedom to express individuality and the freedom to speak. It is Robert’s control of the FOF at his Dinners, at meetings, in having an approved dogma , of control of the traveling teachers and teaching that marks it as in no way being a school of the 4th way.
    It is a shame that later members missed Stella’s teaching. In the mid 1970’s She was the Carmel center director and an early member of the school ( #3?). When she would come to Mt. Carmel we would use the upstairs dining as a coffee shop and she would speak with students until dawn. Students did not hesitate to express themselves honestly with her and honesty and humor were an integral part of her method. All Robert’s chosen like Miles, Gerard and yes even Joel were much more rigid and dogmatic ( although Joel was the best he never lost his humor or wit -probably was not an intellectual type)
    A story of my own .
    Once when I was a waiter in the Gold Room at the Arizona Biltmore Hotel circa 1977 Robert came in with a group of 10 or so for breakfast. He had Corned Beef hash and Eggs. In one of his best “Moses on the mount” poses he explained to students that “fine hotels like this make everything from scratch.” He sent me to ask the chef for the recipe. I did and was told it was Nestles food service in a can. So I came back and told Robert in front of the group. He buffered and changed the subject. He later told me I should have told him privately and “externally consider my teacher”. What I wondered about my not inner considering at having been put in this position?

    Personal e-mail
    Scottduncan@frys.com
    4th way discussion group
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StillPoint/
    Photo’s and artwork
    http://community.webshots.com/user/scottduncan


  235. Dear Bruce I have a question on the musicans in Nevada City. Can you e-mail me privatly?

    Personal e-mail
    Scottduncan@frys.com

    4th way discussion group
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StillPoint/

    Photo’s and artwork
    http://community.webshots.com/user/scottduncan


  236. Bruce,

    Just checked the other blog and your post has not appeared there yet either.

    Christina


  237. Bruce
    I have posted my response to cyclops on the other blog, as it, so far, has not appeared here.

    &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

    It didn’t show up on the other blog either. You are using an illegal character such as a “less than” sign, a left pointing arrow.


  238. This is not great but is cathartic to post
    I read everything; Thanks to you all

    Myself, anguished & hungering
    Was captured spellbound by a promise
    Armored by self-deceit, entranced & trancelike I lived
    My sense distorted by subtle madness
    Making good into bad & bad into good
    Applying hopes to fear & fears to hope
    Distracted & wretched, persuading myself blessed
    What hubris is this?

    I can claim this consolation:
    That truth is after lies made truer
    And good is by worse made better
    Myself, renewed, made wiser
    So chastened, I recover my peace
    And through loss, recover more than was lost

    (Inspired by a sonnet by WS)


  239. That’s odd, because when I go to your site I see the post entry in full.

    Also, here, it says “awaiting moderation”.


  240. I’ll try it here again.


  241. It still says awaiting moderation.


  242. Nope, still comes up like that. Sorry folks.


  243. “It’s Harold Wirk’s timeline, not Veronicapoe’s.”

    Thanks for clarifying.

    Message 185 A former student wrote:

    “Man # 4 begins with mechanical man with the possibility of development and ends with a conscious man. What does this mean. How often do higher centers need to function to be officially conscious? I ask this sincerely what do others think. Is one hour a day enough? two hours? Three hours? at what point does the experience accumulate enough that their is a change in being?”

    Having had experiences of both the third and fourth states of consciousness, I would suggest that higher centers are rarely experienced by man nos. 1,2,3 or 4.

    The 4th state occurred approximately 10 years prior to joining the FoF. I’d been reading “In Search of the Miraculous” and had been working to be present and not express negativity.

    One day, when feeling extremely negative, I lay on my bed and tried, time and again, to pull myself out of the negativity and back into the present. This effort resulted in a sudden rush of energy into my solar plexus, a loss of awareness of my physical body and the experience of an ecstatic state, all of which I now consider to have been an experience of objective conscious – the fourth state.

    The experience of the third state of self-consciousness occurred in 1986 and resulted from approximately 6 weeks of intensive efforts to divide attention throughout each day.

    In answer to the question “Is the experience of higher centers a normal result of efforts to self-remember” I would say that the experience of higher emotional center (self-consciousness) is the result of several years of consistent efforts to divide attention and transform negative emotions, culminating in a final, prolonged and intensive effort which, if successful, results in an experience of the third state. The memory of that state remains and it changes understanding such that isn’t possible to view life in the old way again, but the state isn’t permanent.

    “What are the degree of self remembering?”

    The first is simple presence, then the state experienced when dividing attention, followed by the third state of self-consciousness, and ultimately the fourth state.

    formerfofer
    (1978-1992)


  244. I think my response is up on the other blog now, for those interested.


  245. on June 16, 2007 at 1:02 am Cake please

    Stay off the blog I i told myself. As my Fellowship clock clicks down: go to a place of neutrality, balance, get clear, gain focus.

    And in the end, can’t do it. Miss you all too much. After so many years of rigidity and numbness, oh how i want to feel. Be tossed against the wall Made to see what is. Feel alive once again.

    Thank you all for the slice and dice. Making me think, making me feel.

    Cake


  246. You can have your Cake, and be it too.


  247. Arther 154
    The small city El Cerrito was actually Kensington where I lived at 17 Arlington Ave. My daughter was born while I lived there. This was known as “The Kensignton House” I have gone past the house once in a while in the last few years as my wifes mother lives in Kensignton as does an Aunt.

    Co incidently I was a Market and Powell yesterday.
    I play guitar and a keyboard player I had worked with previously kept calling and asking me to play out on the street. Since I have a set up for this I agreed and went by Bart to Powell and Market. I arrived at 4:45 and although he never met me I set up and played until about 7 when a policeman on a bike chased me away. I believe I will stick to Berkeley.
    Although it was not particularly profitable it is an interesting experience to just set up my gear ( I have backing tracks) and play guitar

    was Kathleen
    I wonder if you are the same person that was responsible for making the calander of events. I used to do Calligraphy and for a while I would do a monthly calander. This was probably 1979-1980.


  248. to Old Fish In The Sea Thank you for a very well written and clearly structered presentation. Although I left the FOF some 27 years ago I completely agree.
    My only cravet is take the time to read the Canon’s. Were you ever asked to agree to them? I personally wonder if Robert did not plan just the kind of situation that has developed in which a member no matter for how long and at what cost has no ownership in the FOF and no defense against being asked to leave if they challange the morality of Robert’s sexuality or use of funds.


  249. My post popped back up at it’s original location (#229). Sorry for all the fuss.


  250. #223 Traveler

    “When the optical illusion reveals itself and you can see both the vace and the faces at one time, there is no going back.”

    Nice, weird huh?

    The first three or four paragraphs I thought hey, who stole my story. It made me tear up.
    What we get is so much more wonderful than what we imagined. Go figure.


  251. Graduates solved the problem. It appears that if their are two hyper links in a post it triggers moderation. Who’da thunk.


  252. on June 16, 2007 at 1:35 am Veronicapoe

    For those interested, “Overview of Fellowship Exercises, July 26, 1980” is now online:

    http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_362

    Visit Veronicapoe’s bookmarks:
    http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Veronicapoe


  253. on June 16, 2007 at 1:45 am Veronicapoe

    For those interested, “Three Photographs of Robert Burton from the 1960s” is now online:

    http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_738


  254. on June 16, 2007 at 1:46 am Veronicapoe

    For those interested, “Overview of Fellowship Exercises, July 26, 1980″ is now online:

    http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_362


  255. on June 16, 2007 at 1:53 am Veronicapoe

    For those interested, “Photograph: Gathered Around The Campfire, 1971” is now online:

    http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_832


  256. on June 16, 2007 at 1:55 am Was KathleenW

    248, a former student

    “I wonder if you are the same person that was responsible for making the calander of events. I used to do Calligraphy and for a while I would do a monthly calander. This was probably 1979-1980.”

    ———————————
    No, I was in the short-lived La Jolla center at that time. I was typesetting for a living though. Probably not the kind you were doing — phototypesetting.

    However, we may have crossed paths. Jeanna and I joined through the same series of prospective student meetings in Hawaii, and when DH and I moved from Hawaii to San Francisco in 1977, we stayed at the Kensington House for a couple of nights. Shortly after that, Jeanna adopted our cat, Lucy, who was being terrorized by another cat in the teaching house we moved into.


  257. on June 16, 2007 at 2:16 am Was KathleenW

    254 Veronicapoe

    “For those interested, “Overview of Fellowship Exercises, July 26, 1980″ is now online:”

    ————————————–

    The “Do Not Speak About Spouse” exercise is interesting in retrospect. My recollection (quite possibly faulty) is that the reason given was that to speak about one’s spouse is mechanical and possibly gossip. I’m sure it also helped keep certain things quiet.


  258. Hey Bruce,

    Your Posts #229, 230, 231, 233, 234,
    240, 241, 242,243,245,247,250,252,…

    I guess a call for moderation has its karmic boomerangs.

    :)


  259. It do.


  260. A former student #248: Another reason I left El Cerrito. I wanted to go apply for a job at an army fort (station) cant remember the name but it was back across the bridge and I had no money. All I thought about was getting back to downtown San Francisco.

    Market and Powell : One day I stood next to a nearby newspaper kiosk. I was taking in everything, the energy of the people, the sights and sounds. I was enthralled.

    This particular day I was wearing a suit and just looking important. The vendor said, “what are you up to” or something like that. I said, “looking for a job”. He said, “no you are not. I know exactly what you are doing standing here looking at everything”.

    Then he spent the next several minutes trying to convince me that I was part of some kind of security detail for the governor of California who happened to be in the area.


  261. Here’s some late night music for some local musicians to sooth your souls:


  262. Dear Traveler,
    Just want to say how much I enjoyed your post #224. Thanks for sharing.

    Dear Veronicapoe, I have some pictures and other things I don’t mind sharing, since you’re archiving things. The stuff I have is more recent and may be more… funny.
    Write me at malaec@yahoo.com


  263. After Katrina ,Nevada City put together a very fast all night benefit for the victims. This is my bud Lorraine Gervais doing Hendrix’s Angel. Please excuse the quality.


  264. on June 16, 2007 at 4:11 am Spencer St Clair

    It is painful reading through this blog… so much anger.. so much hostility… it truly is exhausting. What surprises me the most is that so many of the people who post on this site still believe the ideas upon which the FOF was founded. For years, I did too.. I used to say, “I have never found any of those ideas to be untrue”. Now I can’t say that at all. I remember that many times, a discussion emerged among students about what Ouspensky really meant when he said (near the end of his life), “Abandon the system” I do not ever remember ANYONE presenting the theory that he meant, “Abandon the system!” Isn’t that just amazing? Over the years, and especially during the past 5 years, I have learned that ANY system that is supposedly related to enlightenment is by its very nature the ANTEDOTE for awakening. Words themselves create boundaries. How can one put boundaries around that which is literally EVERYTHING? The only value of words or (to a lesser degree) concepts is that of the words POINTING to truth. Words can never actually BE truth. The Zen Buddhists use the analogy of mistaking the finger pointing to the moon as the moon itself. When we follow ANY system, or even start quoting any teacher, we are beginning to worship that finger.
    Awakening is such a simple thing. It is not hard… Here is an analogy that is helpful to me. Consider being asleep, dreaming… and in that dream, lucidity appears. Most of us have had lucid dreams and some of us have even practiced them. The lucidity can see the dream clearly. The main character (played by someone always known by the name of “me”) is running away from a scary monster, or towards a sexy one… and then the lucidity sees how unreal it all is. It is obvious that there is no monster… and not even that “me” character. None of it is really happening at all, when viewed from the lucidity. Who we are IS THAT LUCIDITY. Notice when you are daydreaming… of course, you are not being present… in FOF terms, you are not dividing your attention.. but what is noticing that you are daydreaming? Something IS NOTICING IT! Something is seeing everything, and that “something” cannot be seen.. and also that “something” has no opinions about what is happening.. no judgment. I just sees.. it is Awareness that sees… Consciousness… the Oneandonlyself…. There is no true personality and false personality.. there is no lower self and higher self… all of that is just the ego putting on different masks.. and the truth is that there really is no ego at all! Truly, all that exists is Consciousness, The One, playing the part of each of us… Almost all of the talk on this blog (and all around us, to be honest) is about separateness. This veil that keeps us from the truth of existence is itself totally transparent, but we can’t see this when we are focused on this dream. Awakening is merely a shift in perception… but this is not something the mind can do…

    There is something calling to each of us… This is what in the FOF was called “The Magnetic Center” It is something unseen, but felt by every human… a longing for something. Our society teaches us to take action, to go after that for which we long… (or else to AVOID that for which we long, which of course is the same coin) So we feel that if we find the right job, or the right new car, or the right mate, THEN I will be happy! It is this quest that we have all felt.. We enobled it when we began our spiritual pursuits, but it is that same longing that leads to ALL addictions.. feeling that there is something we NEED, and we will do whatever we can to satisfy that need.. Of course, we thought we were higher than the heroin addicts or Type-A career addicts when we found spirituality, but it is the same inner pull that we have felt… The FOF, and all other systems have told us that we have to do something in order to reach that final prize, awakening… we have to meditate.. or divide our attention… or transform negativity… that is all bullshit, and we have all bought it… (I won’t even get started in talking about “The Secret”!!!) This pull is calling to us, inviting us home.. We do NOT need to take any action.. in fact, and action that we take effectively pushes it away! We need to surrender.. to totally let go.. and there is NO WAY THAT ANYONE CAN TELL YOU HOW TO LET GO! Because to try to let go is efforting.. is trying to do something.. It is true that we cannot DO, but not as most of us have understood it. There is one phrase that is helpful to me, and that is, “Thy Will, not my will, be done”. Okay, now I have to bring up “The Secret” This film, which does state a lot of things that are true with apparently little understanding of them, is all about “My Will, not Thy Will be done”. See the difference? It is about figuring out how to get what we want.. and that is exactly what keep awakening away. The Secret is really the path towards a deeper and more pleasant form of illusion… sorry to offend its fans.. and there are many…

    One last thing. Do you really want to awaken? Ask yourself this question, and be honest? Are you willing to give up everything? No, you don’t have to quit your job, leave your relationship and give your money to your guru.. that has been tried!!! but you have to give up all your beliefs… as beliefs always include fear.. the fear that it might not be true, among other fears. One has to give up even the pleasant ones.. the idea of being in a blissful state 24/7… Are you willing to give up everything that you presently call real? Are you willing to give up all your fears? To give them up, you must really face them.. and especially, you must come face to face with the most primal fear, that of utter annihilation.. the fact that who you think you are doesn’t even exist. It never did. The word, “ego” is Latin for “I”. If you really want this awakening, there will be total resistance from this imaginary one… What happens here is a literal inability to breathe when deep awakenings happen. That is absolutely terrifying. Are you willing to face this terror? Face it without flinching? Face it even if it means your utter destruction? If so, have at it… I have seen the scaley beast, and I keep heading back into its den. Can’t think of anything better to do… or to not do, as the case might be…

    One last thing.. I don’t know this at all.. but it is my opinion that RB did have a genuine awakening back in the late 60’s, but that he never completed the process. Awakening IS a process.. One awakens in a flash of Grace, and then there is a process that generally takes many years to complete the awakening. Robert didn’t go past that first big internal explosion.. you see, he took it personally.. and awakening is not personal… it is the end of the personal..
    I would love to receive comments, if you would like to write. My email is enhance44@earthlink.net.
    Many blessings to you,
    Spencer


  265. Last one. Alela Diane

    enjoy


  266. Reply to Posts #211, #217, #224, #235 & #244

    Hello Arthur/ Post #217

    Forget the fourth bottle for a blog member, save the fourth
    one for you, you’ll need another.

    __________________________

    Hello Traveler/ Post #224

    Thank you for that post: beautiful.

    _________________

    Hello A former student/ Post #235

    You wrote ~

    “I did and was told it was Nestles food service in a can. So I came back and told Robert in front of the group. He buffered and changed the subject. He later told me I should have told him privately and “externally consider my teacher”. What I wondered about my not inner considering at having been put in this position?”
    ___________________

    Well, there you have it, again… “should have”.

    Oh, I get it Robert Burton, its in a can….

    now let me rap it out of my cerebellum to get this crazy sheet straight,

    like two and two equals four straight jackets, not made from scratch, rather yellow and green silk viagra sachets and linen robe belts, seat belts not made from felt, click clack I don’t have yo back, back to back, in and out of tha Galleria stash, flashing those denims out from tha wash, Isabelle were is yo clock, seeing those new spring squash, holding their own, breathing, can you feel their earnestness dripping down the sink drain, reigning these birds, thirty in all, who got the Koran’s signature?
    flying through the sky of pain, movement grooving through these times of day and night candy canes, sawing those lumber planks to hold cold coffee to stay, don’t forget to unplug the cappuccino machine, hell’s fire is always one step past At Bay, weather gone astray, mining caps ah swaying in the coal dust as our wives and daughters criss cross, Sunday prey, that we’ll come home, recognizable as the prodigal son was when standing over his blind father’s grave, you and me bro, stamping down the thoroughfare of San Francisco, prehistoric like, you with tha traffic, me wondering off in the static, listening to tha white noise grove, a little too much, cool, I’m back in tha touch, I can see the moments donut hole, we’re looking for those piles of change, given back to the toll payers, dropped, discarded, not wanted, for facts are too factual to be yo facts, conscience slayers, loose change equals too much weight, we’re on the other side of tha gate, yo can’t compromise the extra heaviness of taking change for price, gotta throw around yo real scale numbers, even if they’re edited by someone in ah slumber, gotta roll those dice, yet they loaded homey, what momma don’t know daddy got it in the tool shed cabinet down below, illing the five finger discount with tha picture phony, dumping out tha lice, shaving our heads, we’re children again, on the mend, not thinking of booty, looty, duty or woody, just looking for that first promise of yo man number seven, yet moody, promised at the end of that one, their rainbows rail road’n cross yours, pots of gold, penicillin pores on an old loaf of bread, cold sores, forlorn minuscule and gone Lincoln rounds, look over there homeboy, its someone’s wallet on the double line, you going for it, will it be mine, its nighttime, make your move long legs cause I’m cartwheeling already, grooving near ya, almost steady like, bright shinning raccoon eyes peering at yo first sight, I just might, is it leather, alligator, croc, rhino or made in China, fine though, so long as its cash and not in escrow, boiling, Yellowstone park is rising, dividing my attention between here and yo plus equals minus, bring tha crater to life again, gaseous vapors melting this dimension thin, closing on ya, yo conscience can be born, erase tha porn! Give it all up, bringing tha gods down closer, so they can touch and be touched by the stealth wealth, not yo conservative inquisitive monolithic imperial nonoperative, stoking a chimney that ain’t got no house, no mouse, no spouse,
    I’m voting, let’s all love and let go these guns smokin, choking, destabilizing the sunshine, rest awhile in a bag of salt in the river Rhine, my fine sign of love is not rolled in a glove, shizzam! Whose that, who said ‘I can, I am tha man, yo man is my man, give him up or be damned, yo just ho’s in my way, the world is mechanical cause man marries other than another man’, back to me, I’m just yo conscience rapping, whose singing so love will guide us all outside the sheets of cling free, dethroned, stoned, moaned and back to tha source where’s there’s no divorce, clock remorse, ming, rings, porcelain reflections to get ya down, thinking about it all, staring into tha wondering if you’re for hire or just prolonging what’s already expired, who isn’t god’s homey, boom, the thunder sounds, clowns swarm the earth, birth stops, immortal dirt, take it in yo hand, feel its texture, remember me, remember them and way back then Them, at that first lie, dribble, shout, tha baby’s too shy to ask for pie and so you shielded yo self from looking it in the eye, too close to home, gotta find a distraction, traction, faction, relaxation station, fixation, food stamp exchange relation, where you couldn’t see yo footprints the FoF carried yo butt, strutting down Rice’s Crossing Road, not thinking of Jesus or how grain might have landed in his bowl or gut, gotta strut tha stuff regardless of tha fluff, they couldn’t drop ya, thought they might loose their souls or worse, the perfected non-debit FoF strut, damn homey, break it smooth for once, let out all the pent up daemons out into tha rose garden fo a breath of fresh air, I know their names, I ain’t got no hair fo god to count, give them to me, nothing to loose, I’m not looking for a new grove to sooth, I got tha pesticide, not suicide, not genocide, not side by side, not yo regular or politicized, licensed, no green card voodoo to size, get on up, those onyx spirits, not deliberates, they are the only true sink drain theme, scream, cough out those Leviathans, grins, sins, gins, lens, skins of spirit men on lend fo the sake of recollection and I did it scoff, cross Richard’s ranch let them dance, allowing them to finally have croissants ‘in’ France, don’t hesitate with this date, we not waitin for so slow pokes, but leaving a trail called tha blog, loader than a million frog and with this rhyme I summon a billion empty flasks of dried up wine, promises, predictions, suspicions, gossip, man number four, damn that’s sore, spinning them all at once, the worlds largest twirl tha bottle truth or dare, its dizzying isn’t it, whether its gonna land here or there? Break it! You say, but its no ordinary bottle, throttle, model of tha universe, its real, in this moment without a red riding hood bonnet, Shakespeare sonnet, damn, get up on it, rock on out with your solo Gucci, that’s what we are here fo anyway, not to sway, get paid, get laid, get weighed at Weight Watcher’s hall of fame, who’s who don’t know our names, as far as they are concerned no we ain’t no more than I Love Lucy or Got Porn? and damn, Lucy’s Ricky died before the fellowship could get him.

    _____________________________

    Breakin it on out to ya,

    Love to you all.


  267. 265 unoanimo

    Got a wee bit of the Dublin bard in ya lad.


  268. Bard it on up Bruce, we ain’t covering that we’re not afraid to loose.


  269. on June 16, 2007 at 5:07 am More history needed?

    Dear All.

    Can we count how many people left since November 2006 per center. Would you all be so kind to let us know?
    Why? In 1995 200 people left. I never was informed of these figures. We heard, that it was only a few “negative people” who left. If I had know it was 200 I might have done some more investigation???
    Now it is still hard to get numbers. Maybe students from each center can write with a header London center count, Paris center count, Madrid center count etc.

    Would you, could you?

    Thanks.


  270. Bruce #264:

    Sweet song and video. Thanks.


  271. #268 More history needed?

    It might be an interesting exercise, but I would ask “if only one person left, or 500 left” what does that mean to YOU?

    Do you really need more information? Thousands have left over the years. Yet many still remain. Only you can answer “should I stay or should I go?”

    That’s why we have talked so much of conscience here.


  272. Hello Tim Campion! Out of the blue, one year for Christmas my brother who doesn’t know you, gave me your book of “Waves”. I still have it. It makes me smile to see your name here. Do any more surfing? Or do us old farts just surf the internet instead these days?

    Hello Unoanimo #220:

    “I sense a bit of poking lately from you, waz up? Perhaps your heart wishes to meet me, could that be it? Who knows, I do sense that, often, when, what we ‘think’ we love does not respond to our thought, we make it the enemy, yet, too, it often goes unnoticed that we never really spoke to that person directly, never fully revealed our imaginary picture…”

    If your lovely neighbor pokes you, do you really think it is because they want to make you their ‘enemy’ when they live so close by, right next door? Or are they just being polite?

    Have you EVER spoken to me directly in your posts…or have you just reacted to what I have written in my posts to others in the ‘interest of balance’? Frankly, the latter seems the case from my side of the LCD, which is fine, I need the eggs, but you don’t seem to. You are aleady ‘there’.

    Yes, my heart does want to meet yours…as equals, not unlike everyone else here including Little Suzy, Yesri Baba and some of our non-native friends who have been poking you, too. We are all in the same sandbox. And we are used to direct eye to eye contact. It cuts through the pretense. I sense only your profile in your responses to me instead, not your direct gaze, your word-images only aimed in my general vicinity. We deserve better than that, you and I, don’t we, after all we’ve been through?

    I’m a purest, mate, I’d rather breathe the fresh clean air between us than your ‘prose exhaust’ as you do a fly by overhead! Sure, I could consciously use the scroll bar, my ‘anonymous friend’, or even the page down button, as it were in your case, to sweep you completely under the rug. Yet despite my FOF training, my mama taught me better than that.

    “Conscious doing’ is not about ‘scrolling on by’ in avoidance, but stopping and smelling the roses. And this blog is a garden of delights! Traveler’s #224 delightful sharing is case in point. I read it twice. I could empathize…been there myself.

    Are you really in this for balance? Balance means equal. You seem to be holding your finger on your side of the scale.

    I’d like to greet you in that wordless, keyboard-less place, without the roadkill, lions, snakes or spiders, where I don’t feel the need to wash my hands of anything or anyone. Where we can dangle our feet into the same lake from the same dock on a hot summer day and watch the catfish jump. Maybe do some fishing, maybe just stretch out.

    PS. I didn’t find the toaster, it found me. I just got up the nerve and made the call.

    PSS #265 Cough, cough, cough. Is it a bird? Is it a plane?


  273. To More history needed: on the list that I am making it’s over 50 people who confirmed that they left in 2006-2007. And this list is far from being completed and not everyone listed their years in the school. I personally know many more people who just recently left but are not included in the list.
    FOF will not disclose the real numbers – it would be just bad marketing for them. They stopped updating them on Propylaia a while ago – guess why. Besides it’s not over – people are still leaving.
    Didn’t RB “predicted” that it will be no more than 30 people this time? If he did, well, he is wrong – again!

    Contact list for ex-members:
    malaec@optonline.net


  274. Dear Lucy
    For some reason after Jeanna and I parted I had to take the cat with me. We lived in a tiny apartment in the tenderloin. I was certainly alone and isolated. I moved into a house out by the Zoo with some others to strat a band and Lucy ran away. I think she was harrassed by my roommates cat.
    That’s the last I ever saw her.


  275. #235 A former student

    I am not going to call it anything.

    Like I said I was making a bunch of assumptions. It was just a thought that occured to me while reading your posts to No person and I threw it out there. I don’t know what anyone else needs to do but myself, and thats pretty iffy.


  276. A former student

    I like your Cosmic Consciousness print. Do you have a studio in Berkley? I don’t live that far away and would like to see them in real life, if possible, sometime.


  277. #271 Whalerider:

    Hello! The old fart who wrote the Book of Waves is my brother Drew. And yes, he still surfs. I’m afraid of waves.

    He’s out there, lurking. But don’t be surprised if you see a new poster who “sounds” suspiciously like Bob Dylan; it’ll probably be Drew.


  278. on June 16, 2007 at 9:29 am Gabriella F.

    To More history needed
    Milan center count: 9
    (as far as I know, until March 2007)


  279. on June 16, 2007 at 10:29 am for the Best_1

    #268 More history needed

    Paris center count:
    2 left since November (the center had before 25 students)

    Aline


  280. on June 16, 2007 at 10:48 am Bass Ackwards

    #268 More history needed

    Amsterdam center count:
    3 left since November


  281. Some posts set me off.

    It is a line of children holding each others shirt tails down the trail into now. It is in the story and between the lines or one line or one phrase. Aha, yes, yes it is me and they are writing. A price was paid and it was not for naught (it was for naught but what naught?). “Dark knowing” (Sandra C.), like in a dream or high when one sees the meaning of everything and writes it down so it won’t be forgotten. The next day the note says: The world is round and there are stars in the sky. What the..? Again a dream, must be more careful. Later: The world is round and there are stars in the sky.

    We must not be afraid to acknowledge our greatness for the rest of the world will surely remind us that we are not. And we must acknowledge the greatness of that co-worker and the woman at the cash register and the old woman walking with a walker diagonally across the street because they may not be doing it for themselves.

    The world is round and there are stars in the sky.


  282. on June 16, 2007 at 10:58 am Gary Williamson

    I have it from a good source that Drew once asked Robert if Bob Dylan was a semi-conscious being. Surf’s up.


  283. Amsterdam at least 2 people left (last couple of months), London at least 2 people (last couple of months).


  284. ah bruce!
    in posts too numerous to refer to!
    Now i bet that you were completely unidentified the whole time. I checked out one of the addresses you refer to and im reminded of the fact that if one compiles selective excerpts from a piece then one can “spin” it to mean almost anything one wants.
    I went to your link,
    http://www.rense.com/general20/yes.htm
    and if you look at the bottom of that page, it corroborates the veracity of the original clip but not the circumstances.
    I had no idea that it had any connection with what you found in it but thats probably because of the glasses i am wearing.
    Take it easy in your “defender of the faith role” or your likely to pop a blood vessel. Or even better, try to play the other sides role for a while as an experiment to view attachment.
    By the way didnt you say i was a fool and that you were done with me, then be done.
    253 Veronicapoe. Maybe we should change your name from the gothic horror ending which is very appropriate to the current situation, to Kapow, as your knockout blows have the golem reeling. Thank you for each and every one.
    HI SHEIK. In reading other posts im seeing some full names and wondering if there is a reason for them being excepted. Is it ok, as ive seen in other posts, to use first name and first initial.
    Quentin Crisp, who was one of the first gays said.
    “Its no good running a pig farm badly for 30 years while saying, “Really , I was meant to be a Ballet dancer.” By then, pigs will be your style.”
    ps how do you catch a monkey?
    love Cy.


  285. Hi
    you may take a look at this video

    where Robert Burton offers an example of how c influence communicate with him.

    enjoy


  286. on June 16, 2007 at 3:39 pm for the Best_1

    #224 Traveller
    Thank you for your testimony which pushes to me to write this post.

    This once more raises the question to know “why people remain such a long time in the school”?
    This question often was reccurent, in a sarcastic way, in various posts.

    I spent myself more than 22 years in the school,although I had lost my naivety about it at least 10 years before departing.

    For a long time I had the feeling to be alone (except for some rare friends) with my interrogations and the contradictions provided by the school.
    Each time I exposed my points of view to others in the school, they did not accept them and returned them to me, photographing me to make more efforts, to have less personal points of view, “to do my work”….
    That led me finally to not expose my point of view anymore while feeling guilty not to make the efforts in the direction required by the school.
    R.Collins says that the greatest suffering of a man is not to be understood by others.
    Because of that, one can wait for years hoping to be understood and gratified by others.

    Another reason is that people remain in the school sometimes because they are depressed. This was not my case, but the case of several people around me. It is not even the fact of being depressed, but the fact of not realizing it, which prevents them from having the minimum of energy to decide to leave.
    As Traveller explained in its post #224 “depression happens when you freeze yourself from experiencing feelings and thoughts that you think you shouldn’ t be having.”

    An other point evoked by Traveller “The best way to lie is to make yourself believe that you’ re telling the truth.” is also one of the points which can prevent someone to leave: by implicating someone personally to confirm publicly unverified things or unacceptable facts.
    I personally refused 3 times the role of centre’s director because I understood that nobody was ready to listen to I had to say.

    Aline


  287. in reply to more history needed post 268

    All students who left are removed from propylaia after some time. The current number is 2002 and these numbers are updated regularily and available within the FOF. There has been no attemp to hide this. The general changes in the FOF seem to have a larger impact on membership numbers than the blog (although it might have helped students to make up their mind), since most students joined primarily because of the teaching and not because of the teacher. This development is considered a nessecary step in the transition to a new teaching. There are some posters here like graduate and others who kind of reconcile the extreme postions and acknowledge a relative value of the FOF for it’s members. I highly appreciate this


  288. on June 16, 2007 at 4:24 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    #282 student: ‘the transition to a new teaching’ there is no new teaching to teach; just more ‘stuff’ to make you think you are being taught and kept busy by more mind games.

    sorry, couldn’t help myself.


  289. Traveler 224, Aline 281
    Thanks for sharing. Your stories resonated deeply inside my heart. It’s to amazing to finally find out you’re not alone after all.
    The Whitman poem is a wonderful finale.

    Bruce 261
    I woke up this morning with a Joanna Newsom song in my head and the strong urge to post one of her videos. Man, you’re efficient! She is one incredibly talented woman. Have you seen her perform live?

    I reciprocate with another pearl for you music lovers out there.

    All is full of love


  290. 284 Laura

    I have. She used to perform here relatively frequently. Since she took off, not so much. She grew up around the same circle of friends as my kids.
    Great music, quirky voice that stays with one.


  291. on June 16, 2007 at 5:18 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    You know, looking back at my post, I had a reaction to student. And it wasn’t so much the words used but the tone.

    When student said, “This development is considered a nessecary (sp) step in the transition to a new teaching” (I guess ‘this development’ means students leaving the Fellowship.

    Sounds about as emotional as picking weeds out of a garden. Maybe student is mistaking the flowers for weeds.


  292. student 282
    in reply to more history needed post 268

    All students who left are removed from propylaia after some time. The current number is 2002 and these numbers are updated regularily and available within the FOF. There has been no attemp to hide this. The general changes in the FOF seem to have a larger impact on membership numbers than the blog (although it might have helped students to make up their mind), since most students joined primarily because of the teaching and not because of the teacher. This development is considered a nessecary step in the transition to a new teaching. There are some posters here like graduate and others who kind of reconcile the extreme postions and acknowledge a relative value of the FOF for it’s members. I highly appreciate this

    **********

    Think about this, your teacher is irresponsible and selfish and that is his fatal failing. It is the reason he has crystallized in the wrong hydrogens, turn the school into a wrong school and it is the reason C influence set him up and showed that he is in imagination about his importance. From day one he insisted that the school was there because of the end of the world and that was a lie. That was 36 years of being asleep in imagination. Now he has receive a “shock” from the number of shit piles trailing a cartoon on a rock, again this is C influence sending a message to the population of the school to wake up and get out because it has long ago all turned into imagination. It is perfectly clear: the new teaching is shit. Read the artifacts on the wall.

    Burton succumbed to the queens of centers, to the voracious appetites of mouths that can never be satisfied, and in doing so betrayed himself, the school, higher forces and any of those remaining are enablers for a destructive hunger that will suck its way to Hell.


  293. Folks

    About 250 people left between December and now. (This number may be off by 10% in either direction). Of particular note is that an ever-greater percentage of the leavers are over 10 years as members, many over 20. The month of May saw a large spike in the normal monthly average of leavers.

    You’d be surprised at the impact of seeing the disappearance of hundred famliar, respected names. As one long-term member ruefully stated to a ex-member ‘my school is leaving the school’. No wonder fomenting talk about ‘who’ and ‘how many’ is considered an undesirable ‘deviation’ of student’s energy.


  294. on June 16, 2007 at 6:25 pm Lust for Life

    Traveller #224 great posting, reflects a lot of our stories I suspect, and very well articulated.

    Today I met someone who had been in the Madame de Saltzman group, I think she said it was the Gurdjieff Foundation, but not sure about that. Anyway she impressed me with her compassion, energy, vibrancy and understanding and made an interesting comment, not sure how ‘4th way’ it is but it kind of reinforced my sense of things. I have never felt any great regret for being in the Fellowship, I met lots of people like Traveller, lusting for the spiritual, and we learnt much from each other, as well as having many interesting experiences that got me to where I am now. She commented that our souls ‘choose the womb’ we are born into, and none of our experiences are wasted, as the soul’s work is to ‘experience’. Same with all our experiences…we never ‘make mistakes’, but attract different things that help our souls to grow. Becoming bitter and resentful, having an axe to grind is just getting stuck and prevents us moving on. She talked about really listening to ourselves (conscience), so that we can be our own guides.

    Oh, she also said that no one in their group claimed to be a ‘higher man’, but they did a lot of physical work and discussed with each other their observations and understandings on an equal footing. She made the point too, that Gurdjieff’s life situation was constantly changing; he made money, lost it all, tried doing different things all the time, and it re-inforced the sense I have that a lot of people don’t leave the Fellowship (or take many life-changing risks) for fear of losing some warped perception of ‘security’.

    So I guess if we do ‘choose the womb we are born into’, we also chose the group we were in, and stayed in it as long as we needed to….


  295. Lust for Life 289

    Anyway she impressed me with her compassion, energy, vibrancy and understanding and made an interesting comment, not sure how ‘4th way’ it is but it kind of reinforced my sense of things. I have never felt any great regret for being in the Fellowship, I met lots of people like Traveller, lusting for the spiritual, and we learnt much from each other, as well as having many interesting experiences that got me to where I am now. She commented that our souls ‘choose the womb’ we are born into, and none of our experiences are wasted, as the soul’s work is to ‘experience’. Same with all our experiences…we never ‘make mistakes’, but attract different things that help our souls to grow. Becoming bitter and resentful, having an axe to grind is just getting stuck and prevents us moving on. She talked about really listening to ourselves (conscience), so that we can be our own guides.

    ****************

    She sweet talked you. You may not understand what I am going to tell you but here goes, these people are ruled by “feminine dominance” it is an organization that worships feminine dominance. This is what they mean when they say “conscience.” It is also a physical man number one cult. They believe that you can wake up through the sensations of the body, which is a deviation of the Fourth Way. Their cult is simply a less flamboyant FOF.


  296. Graduates, your pose made me laugh, you said it so precisely: new teaching is shit.
    I recall once talking to an old student a while ago being concerned about “new teaching”. I approached it carefully: “Some of it sound so bizzarre, it seems to me almost like bullshit..” He interrupted: “No, dear, this IS bullshit! Complete and total bullshit! Your perception is correct.”
    It’s so funny to see people like Student seriously talking about “new teaching”. I wish I saw your, Student, serious self-remembering face when you were shown at the meeting those marvelous poop images and people screwing from behind… Long and Short Be as penises and breasts… Great New Teaching! What did you learn from this? How do you use it in your everyday life? When you take a crap, you count it? When you see penis you think : Long (short) Be? When you make love you think of it as completing the Sequence on your knees? You walk aroung seing pyramid shapes, and counting things, breaths, and repeating the silly sequence… Trying not to laugh, don’t ever show teeth while smiling – it’s the Devil… Imagining that because of this you’re “more present”. Nice way to live your life, Student! Keep studying, I guess. Keep counting.

    Robert painfully wants to be important. His vanity screams! He desperately wants to contribute something of “his own” to the 4th way teaching, to be recognized. But he simply doesn’t have good enough intellectual center to come up with reasonable ideas. He failed as a Prophet, failed as an Ark Builder, so now he poses as an “Ancient School teaching gatherer and preserver” and tells you that this is the real Aim of the School… What happened to the previous “Aims”? Oops…
    And now he says: “This is what’s on this image. His penis means Long Be. Woman’s breasts are Be and Hold. This is the ulimate truth. That’s what cavemen and egyptians really had in mind. We are so incredibly lucky, aren’t we. Now, repeat after me”.

    Give me a break. “New teaching.” When are you going to finally see that your vain and greedy Teacher simply lost his mind?


  297. on June 16, 2007 at 7:39 pm Lust for Life

    Graduates #290 – I guess you are still a member!

    She did not use the word ‘conscience’, that was my interpretation….it is sometimes difficult to express clearly ones understanding in this format. I was not particularly interested in her groups interpretation of the ‘system’, having personally abandoned it, and all systems, religions etc. some years ago when I left. The point I was trying to make was to those asking how we, who have understood that the FOF is truly a cult, could have been such fools to stay in so long, and also to those who feel that time has been wasted.

    My point was that we attract what we need to evolve spiritually, and no experience is wasted unless we get caught up with regret, bitterness and blame. I also agree with what she said; that we do need to listen to ourselves, something within us which is fundamentally the same, that manifests I suppose through physical sensations, the heart, just having a sense of what is right, following that which inspires and gives us energy…I call it conscience…listening to those ‘negative emotions’ that say “wait a minute, this does not feel right to me” or “something about this is deeply troubling” or whatever. To me they are warning signs and this is what I experienced hearing about RB’s escapades, knowing he lied to people to get their money, seeing that he lives like a king while his ‘disciples’ get fleeced, and justifying his actions by wrapping it all up in the name of ‘the work’ and claiming to be a higher being.

    I also feel that we stay in the Fellowship the amount of time we need to and I guess that is what you are doing…so good luck and may your soul learn the lessons it needs. Just, if you do find yourself leaving, please move on and continue to grow, don’t get stuck in resentment and blame, as some people seem to have.

    Lots of love and lust to you, and all current members.


  298. #289 Lust For Life: I think it was Rodney Collin in “The Theory of Celestial Influence” who mentions how we choose our womb. It had something to do with the vibrations sent out by the quivering vagina.

    I spent a few years fooling around in the dark alleys of lost souls, and my most urgent need was not security but stability.
    An oasis with a cup of coffee.

    I think yesri baba said it best for me in regard to Traveller.
    The first three or four paragraphs said it all.

    I also think those who are recent arrivals need to contact Janna. She is offering a helping hand.


  299. To Unoanimo-

    Your rap (post #265 was quite good). Do you need some beats? Will you come to my studio and record the vocal?

    I posted on page 11 of the blog a request for anyone who might remember which book it was where Gurdjieff spoke about a technique to induce first state by concentrating on the sensation of coolness on your forehead. I thought you might know. Please respond if you do.

    Hey, have we ever met face to face?

    Wishing all a fruitful Saturday…..


  300. 293

    “recent arrivals” I like that.


  301. Inspired by Robert check out wiki before it changes again
    I interprett Beauty in the Sonnets as refering to self remembering and Rose as Higher centers.A sonnet of W. Shakespeare
    XCV.
    How sweet and lovely dost thou make the shame
    Which, like a canker in the fragrant rose,
    Doth spot the beauty of thy budding name!
    O, in what sweets dost thou thy sins enclose!
    That tongue that tells the story of thy days,
    Making lascivious comments on thy sport,
    Cannot dispraise but in a kind of praise;
    Naming thy name blesses an ill report.
    O, what a mansion have those vices got
    Which for their habitation chose out thee,
    Where beauty’s veil doth cover every blot,
    And all things turn to fair that eyes can see!
    Take heed, dear heart, of this large privilege;
    The hardest knife ill-used doth lose his edge.


  302. Where is Elena (former Haven)?
    She is not posting lately.


  303. on June 16, 2007 at 9:42 pm Joe Average

    Veronica, thank you for all your archiving work. Despite living his whole life in a country where people’s lives are well documented, Sri Burton has managed to have a quite vague biographical outline. Whoever ends up writing “My Childhood with Robert” needs our help in gathering the data. Stories are helpful, but solid documentation and photos are perhaps even more necessary.
    BTW-The “3 photos from the 60’s” link has some problem – tried it in Firefox and IE and the material “is not found”.

    As far as stories go:
    The one about the head injury was one that RB loved to tell. In his version of it, the valiant young Horn student came to his meeting right from the hospital, causing his teacher, who was “in unnecessary suffering” to be shamed by the scale of Robert’s suffering and dedication. Yesterday’s daily card echoes this delusion of grandeur; “As a distant echo, man’s suffering mirrors that of the Absolute”.

    Another story I heard was that someone who was with Horn at the same time as Burton later joined the FOF, but left after a while, ostensibly because he just couldn’t accept “that tennis teacher”, as he knew him from Horn’s group, as a conscious being. Jonathan P was also in Horn’s group, though not at the same time as Burton.

    In reference to prior postings about guns at the FOF property, in case no-one addressed this in the interim: This is total horseshit, obviously designed to freak out the locals.
    Burton received some death threats in the mid-90’s that he took seriously. At that time, the guards at his pleasure palace began carrying firearms and the gatehouse (now Pyle, named after Gomer) kept a rifle. This fell away after a few years. I am not aware of anyone routinely “packing” at Isis, unless they are doing it on their own accord and secretly. A few members, primarily out of basic subsistence needs, have/had rifles and occasionally hunt/ed to put food on the table. Otherwise, the idea that gun ownership among students is widespread is nonsense. Isis is closer in spirit to a hybrid of the Nike-clad geeks of Heaven’s Gate and the Worcestershire Ladies’ Gardening Society than the survivalist militia types at Waco. No intent to impugn your adrenal output guys – it is just that FOFers, in general, are simply not physically aggressive types.


  304. 265 Unoanimo – dat shit’s da dope. Saul Williams riding an Allen Ginsberg T-bird with George Clinton spinnaz. When u gwan testify at The Berkeley Slam?

    “I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by group-think, starving hysterical sodomized naked, dragging themselves through the Rose Garden at dawn looking for a pliant damsel; angel-headed, tiny-fisted hucksters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynasty”


  305. Bruce: There are no other moderators, not at the moment. I thought I’d need them if there was more material to be moderated but that never happened. I am glad that you solved your problem at the end – you are right, more than two links will automatically flick your comment to be moderated as it is a common feature of spam.

    I am sorry if I forced some of you people into a state of mild paranoia, there is no dodgy stuff going on, very little moderation, no changes in posts, roughly one post deletion every two days and no blacklisting. There has been no need. Pretty much all posts are going real time.

    I am prepared in case I am needed but I keep my slimy paws off the discussion.


  306. on June 16, 2007 at 10:33 pm Elder Rembrandt

    One day….
    somebody asked me…
    “Why do you paint so many self-portraits?”
    my first answer…..
    “I paint ‘only’ self-portraits.”
    …yes, whatever you paint or write is actually a self-portrait….
    Thou sayest it…..
    One of my young esoteric pupils was asked by a student….
    “Can you read other people minds?”
    He said…..
    “Even if I could I for sure would prefer to read Shakespeare.”
    Sure this pupil of mine will not read this…..
    how do you call it?
    …..He who have hears….


  307. Thanks Sheik, no prob.


  308. Burton received some death threats in the mid-90’s that he took seriously. At that time, the guards at his pleasure palace began carrying firearms and the gatehouse (now Pyle, named after Gomer) kept a rifle. This fell away after a few years. I am not aware of anyone routinely “packing” at Isis, unless they are doing it on their own accord and secretly. A few members, primarily out of basic subsistence needs, have/had rifles and occasionally hunt/ed to put food on the table. Otherwise, the idea that gun ownership among students is widespread is nonsense. Isis is closer in spirit to a hybrid of the Nike-clad geeks of Heaven’s Gate and the Worcestershire Ladies’ Gardening Society than the survivalist militia types at Waco. No intent to impugn your adrenal output guys – it is just that FOFers, in general, are simply not physically aggressive types.

    *******************

    In the mid-80’s I personally stood in a field behind the “Gurdjieff Cottage” practicing target shooting with a 44 magnum pistol, almost everyone had a gun.


  309. That must have been when Mr. Hocking was selling them to us.


  310. Well, not everyone. Many of the men, and a few of the women (nice little ladies 38’s, I think called S&W Diamond Backs).


  311. Is anyone else having trouble viewing the archived material? I can see the photos and other images but anything that is text (such as the Canons and the timeline) I can’t find anything to click on to download or open it up. Is the problem my old iMac?

    Christina


  312. on June 16, 2007 at 10:56 pm Lust for Life

    Question your assumptions about the ‘observer’:


  313. how do you catch a monkey?


  314. RB did tell me in the mid-90’s that there would come a time when everyone in the FOF would be armed. Of course, as we all know, he has said many things that have never come to pass.


  315. #314 Lust for Life

    Question your assumptions about other’s assumptions about the ‘observer’.


  316. #314 Lust for Life

    Krishnamurti is great! Thanx for the link.

    One of the ways I see what Traveller was saying about seeing the “two faces” and the “vace” in the optical illusion at the same time is what Krishnamurti was trying to express.


  317. Correction to #316:

    “…everyone in the FOF would be armed” should read ” everyone at Renaissance will be armed.”


  318. on June 17, 2007 at 2:36 am Gary Williamson

    I actually heard this from another student many moons ago…you catch a monkey by devising a trap whereby he reaches into a hole to grab hold of something he really wants. Once he has it, he will never let go of it…so if the object is too big to come back through the hole you have your monkey. All you need is a sack. And this is a metaphor for…


  319. Answer to Post #304

    Hello Vera.mente:

    She’s at tha beach, cooling her feet, on a straight sheet,
    cause Oregon House waz too small to hold her,
    straight debate, no curls, no furls, just a girl with a twirl,
    makin tha boys too dizzy, so back to Columbia, where tha real coffee is not so luke like and funny.

    Word.


  320. The Fellowship of Friends Cling-Free Deaf Jam,

    remixed, more Fat, more of dat,

    this marmalade jam is dedicated to whale riders everywhere.

    I quote ~

    You wrote ~

    “I did and was told it was Nestles food service in a can. So I came back and told Robert in front of the group. He buffered and changed the subject. He later told me I should have told him privately and “externally consider my teacher”. What I wondered about my not inner considering at having been put in this position?”
    ___________________

    Well, there you have it, again… “should have”.

    Oh, I got it, Robert Burton, it’s in a can, I can hear it rumbling like medieval gout,

    Without a doubt, sauerkraut is not an Egyptian wish-dish to wish for the sake of fish…

    Now, let me rap this ancient rhyme mood, out from between of my cerebellum split, not to spit, to get this crazy sheet straight, for once, not dunce, not too late, to un-procrastinate, join up yo forces betwixt this big ole blog, log, don’t flog, be real, take tha Neo pill ~

    like four and four equals eight straight jackets, not made from scratch, rather many ah yellow and green Viagra silk sachet and linen robe belts, seat belts, not made from felt,

    click clack I don’t have yo back, no, I am not a jack, a king, a queen, ah life person with a back to back floodgate to yo wolf pack, in and out of tha Galleria stash, wondering whetha tha bottle that’s got the most dust is ‘tha must’, flashing those denims out from tha wash, Isabelle, where is yo bell, where is yo clock, knocked off tha Amazon dock, fish it out before those cannibals learn to tell time, outside of the mind, feline, turbine, nerve gas inside yo spine, volunteering to work, signing tha ‘wanna be a movie star in a jar’, before you can rest and dine,

    down with tha dope gravity thing, home girls from England, Britain, Wales or Yale, how can you keep up this cannon ball riddled sale, garage sale, your males?

    Seeing those new spring squash, damn Greylin, waz up my southern brotha, you don’t have to keep driving fo tha same house servant lovas, holding their own, breathing, can you feel their earnestness oozing down the sink drain, reign those birds in, thirty in all, who got the Holy Koran to scribble, enthralled, its signature riddle, picture, before 35 millimeter was tha strip, not to be missed, you jist, your interpretations are the bullet holes in tha Buddha statue, the Taliban did not miss,

    Mohammed is pissed, you would be too if you had died and missed this, insidious procrastinations, perjury, insinuation, recreation, abomination, borrowing from those brains who are not yo’s to undo, see through, paint red, white and blue, for all sorts of personal combinations, work stations, transitory relations,

    combing yo hair in tha gleaming gold minaret to project, protect, prorate, irate, Tibet, inlet, yo guys cracker jacks never had so many wiglets,

    tha muezzin is begging yo people to stop with this ‘tha yo get this fo that’ Rob-mop, this fifties flop drop has gotta stop bopping down tha highway to hell, AC DC, sees through ya, it has fooled ya, into thinking that yo secrets are opaque, wiseacre pilgrimage to no where but tha back gate and its locked, blocked, out of thoroughfare fo yo grove fair,

    flying through the sky of pain, movement grooving through these times of day and night candy canes, sawing those lumber planks to hold cold coffee to stay, to play docta, I gotcha, I watcha, erasing all that this wide world can give to us to cut tha key yo won’t turn, return, assist the FoF to un-yearn,

    there’s no drama that’s not connected to yo momma, how yo treated her on her death bed, playing dead before Death could get any rest or say so in yo mother’s true test, yo’s pharaoh crossing arms, was fo tha crooked test, to show that you are different than tha best, than thee, than we, but for free, you got yo tee shirt that reads,

    ‘My momma died, I said nothing to tha ho, she’s the Mary of the Feminine Dominance Foe, I took the advice of a license plate, to be late, to not go, to her funeral wake.’

    The FoF anti-Christ is his momma, but where’s daddy, its takes two to tango-golf with a fire and brimstone caddy,

    don’t forget to unplug the cappuccino machine, hell’s fire is always one step past at bay to go to burn stage, weather gone astray, mining caps ah swaying in the coal dust as our wives and daughters criss cross their breasts, Sunday prey, that we’ll come home (to stay, our way, not yo nighttime scheduled nest-vests) recognizable to their feminine as the prodigal son waz while standing over his blind father’s grave, adrenaline, ready to pay, though not tha day, tha way, tha month of May waz six feet under his wonder, blunda, tundra, in his hand he held his face, disgraced, out of pace, lace, tho not a waste, god took him, tho not without a grin, some do win, some do everything to win at loosing tha acceptance that they have deluded tha already polluted.

    You and me bro, stamping loud, causing ripples in tha pot hole, down the thoroughfare of San Francisco, prehistoric like, not on trikes, tyrannosaurus, brontosaurus, reptilian cactus eaters smorgasbordus, you with tha traffic, me wondering off in the static, listening to tha white noise grove, a little too much, coola, I’m back in tha touch, I can see the moments donut hole, you’re looking for those piles of copper change, moon dust, given back to tha toll payers in pain,

    dropped, discarded, not wanted, cause yo lover’s ‘one cent’ is not enough ‘down on it’, for facts are too factual to be yo facts, conscience slayers, hypnotized payers, desperate soothsayers, never had enough to buy a real crystal ball, yo ya’ll, its looks good from a distance, particularly when its transatlantic resistance, missed opportunistic, wavy gravy and at least yo don’t have to worry bout no bread coming from Rob and tha lady,

    loose pennies equals too much weight, in tha blog, we’re on the other side of tha gate, yo can’t compromise the extra heaviness, tha steadiness, tha readiness, tha truthfulness of taking change for price, gotta throw around yo real scale numbers, even if they’re edited by someone in ah slumber, a frowning back is its turned towards ya,

    the stage you, believed to be you, even if its not true, the FoF is better at making you than you, so go figure it, dog tick, throw tha stick, get tha whip, unconditional rehabilitative ship,

    yo, I cannot congratulate anyone, fo holding out what’s beyond yo zipper, as a wand.

    Gotta roll those dice, yet, they’re loaded homey, what momma don’t know daddy’s got it in the cellar den below, on hold, wrapped in tha fool’s gold baloney, illing the five finger discount from between tha legs with tha picture phony,

    funny, not so homey, reaching for tha four leaf clover, its all over ya, like ah prison tattoo, whose You, am I through? gotta stroll a bit longer, stronga, for those found souls beyond ya,

    dumping out tha lice, shaving our heads, we’re children again, on the mend, not thinking of booty, looty, duty, could he, would he or woody, just looking for that first promise of yo man number seven, yet moody,

    promised at the end of ‘that one’, their double rainbows rail road’n cross yo’s proclivity, divinity, serenity, I wanna win her him or she’s he, pots of gold inabilities, penicillin spores on an old loaf of bread, cold sores, forlorn minuscule and gone Lincoln rounds, going out of town, around, during July and August, too hot for ya?

    Look over there, homeboy Rob, its someone’s wallet on the double line, you going for it, will it be mine, its nighttime, make your move long legs cause I’m cartwheeling already, grooving near ya, almost steady like, bright shinning raccoon eyes peering at yo first sight, I just might, is it leather, alligator, croc, rhino or made in China, fine though, so long as its cash and not in escrow,

    Boiling, churlin, sirens are whirling, high noon, tha moon, too soon, yo head feels like ah balloon, baboon, for swoon, wounds can be heard administering themselves in tha sound of a flag flapping at half mass, no, you can’t have that Isis pass, you’re last, out of gas, a not has, robot, forget me not, a knot, forgot, a past FoF ingot,

    tha bucking stops here, for the FoF will smear, your fear, your tears, your gear, your near mirror seer, out and about, makin makeup juju, for you, so not to recognize you when you see you in you for you all you, through!

    Remember she who played tha bassoon, she’s didn’t woo tha moon, but she’s done with this jist, this mist, these forty-four toll stations on tha edge of cliffs.

    Yellowstone park is rising, dividing my attention between here and yo plus equals minus, bring tha crater to life again, gaseous vapors melting this dimension thin, closing on ya, yo conscience can be born, erase tha porn!

    Give it all up, bringing tha gods down closer, so they can touch and be touched by the stealth wealth, not yo conservative inquisitive monolithic imperial nonoperative cooperative, stoking a chimney that ain’t got no house, no mouse, no spouse, no spare change to be found in tha cushions of yo couch,

    yo not my prisoner, I’m not Kissinger, what does ‘K’ have to do with jail? Yo FoF don’t need no facts to grove down perspiration lane that this Subway combo is smooth, rhyming like a dope male, in tha pale trail, out of free rail, free will, but suffering what’s he’s got to do to improve, not to sue or be sued,

    don’t forget, here is where heaven started it,

    I’m voting, let’s all love and let go these guns smokin, choking, destabilizing the sunshine, rest awhile in a bag of salt in the river Rhine, my fine sign of love is not rolled in a glove, Shizzam! Whose that, who said, ‘I can, I am tha man, yo man is my man, give him up or be damned, yo just ho’s in my way, the world is mechanical cause man marries other than another man’. (?)

    Homeboy hears tha door lock click close, day turns to night, fright, trembling, stuttering, hands in tha pockets, fear of inopportune dockets, loud gossip rockets, eyes inside their sockets, tearing up to try and slide out, no so, this room is for real men, not doubt, not them, who brought to this earth his men, his wine, his time, his muscle, hustle and bustle,

    No, you take take tha ticket sales, I’ll have yo males,

    where is yo third state now, in a cow, a fruit, a tulip, a palm tree’s uprooted, in tha fourth state of mess, in someone else’s ‘best at tha all-nighter-contest’, in tow, in thyself know, can’t grow, roots are upside down, out of town, Russia’s too far away today, out of time, decision is not yo’s, it’s out of mind, you’re tha sheep, tha heap, not tha teach, coffee grinds, egg shells in tha wishing well of ‘Swell, thank you dear for this year, for your fear, for tha intentional space between ear to ear, that’s tha most a teacher preacher kinda feature can no doubt be quick to tote on his boat, larger than an ark and for a start, bring me more just like that rhapsodized tart.

    Back to me, I’m just yo conscience rapping, whose singing so love will guide us all outside the sheets of cling free suffocation, molestation, Life is a toilet station,

    Dethroned, stoned, moaned and back to tha source where’s there’s no divorce, clock remorse, ming, rings, porcelain reflections to get ya down, thinking about it all, like when ya cleaned out yo own fireplace, one grace, one face, one race, one embrace, in pace with tha real ace, yo own conscience, without tha Trojans, tha theologians, tha Gilligan’s Island ‘I told ya’s’ “to drop the ‘anchor’, not yo ‘anger’”,

    that FoF quick to make all doubt ah stranger,

    staring into tha wondering, if you’re for still for hire or just prolonging what’s already expired, who isn’t god’s homey,

    boom, the thunder sounds, clowns swarm the earth, birth stops, immortal dirt, take it in yo hand, feel its texture, remember me, remember them and the way back then Them, at that first lie, dribble, shout, tha baby’s too shy to ask for pie and so you shielded yo self from looking it in the eye, too close to home, gotta find a distraction, traction, faction, relaxation station, fixation, food stamp exchange relation,

    gotta ease yo self with someone else, who will believe that ‘yo that’ is ‘the that’, not tha rat who ate tha cat, gotta reverse that contradiction into fiction, fairy tale and censorship of mail,

    Where you couldn’t see yo footprints the FoF carried yo butt, strutting down Rice’s Crossing Road, though not thinking of Jesus or how grain might have landed in his bowl or gut, gotta strut tha stuff, regardless of tha fluff, what’s really tuff, to hold yo breath while puffing tha fluff,

    They couldn’t drop ya, not cause tha weight waz equal to the relate, thought they might loose their souls cause of some third party source or worse, their perfected non-debit FoF strut chanting ‘but, but, but…’

    Damn homey, break it smooth for once, sandpaper valentine, no, no body wants that kind of thine,

    let out all the pent up daemons, out into tha rose garden fo a breath of fresh air, squeeze from yo lungs all that lard and gin, poached eggs, Tazo tea and upchucked pelican fins,

    I know their names begin, I ain’t got no hair fo god to count, give them to me, nothing to loose, I’m not looking for a new grove to sooth or a new sin to wake Moses to decipher them,

    I got tha pesticide, not suicide, not genocide, not side by side, not yo regular or politicized, no green card voodoo to size, get on up, those onyx spirits, not deliberates, they are the only true sink drain theme, scream, cough out those Leviathans, bins, sins, wins, lens, skins of spirit men on lend fo the sake of a ‘I can do!’ scoff, mosquitoes on the downstairs bedroom window, seems so to tha boys, in tha dark, spraying the insecticide in tha faces of someone whispering ‘Hey homey, this ark, let’s get off.’

    Yo aim is a bit side stepped, without regret, you’ve bombed the ole folks home, burning rubble, moans, groans, auto loans, cell phones, Barney Rubble, trouble, dinosaurs with friends like yo’s don’t need no tar pit sequence to bring to an end all this dear-fence,

    just like that, the end will be tha end, without tha margarita bend, no tried friends, no sand box to play in, nothing, just yo selves and destruction, quotations and flotations, for all Titanic romantics to sooth themselves at night, as Conscience flies yo body like a kite,

    through the live oaks, tha clearing of throats, off tha deep end, tha deamons dive,

    cross Richard’s ranch let them dance, allowing them to finally have croissants ‘in’ France, don’t hesitate with this date, we’re not waitin for no slow pokes, but leaving a trail called tha blog, louder than a million frog and with this rhyme I summon a billion empty flasks of dried up wine, promises, predictions, suspicions, gossip, man number four, damn that’s sore, spinning them all at once, the worlds largest twirl tha bottle truth or dare, its dizzying isn’t it, whether its gonna land here or there, taking out eighty percent of the grape orchard, sparks could scorch it, yo wine is gonna be worth more for it?

    Like a meteorite, not out of spite, from Heaven’s Gate to Stargate, don’t be late and forget about bringing yo date, you’re never married enough to give shine to rust, marble bust, a must, a lust, a trust fund in Switzerland, yo tha man Rob, when there are no other men to trust, alone with tha pizza crust, to unwind your rewind, they must, they don’t see it,

    Yo, you say, ‘I’m being it, I’m repeating it, so you can hear it again and keep the same wound festering, even after its imagined, its on tha mend, conscious pestering, it works don’t it, then?

    that’s why I’m on replay all day, in tha way, looking forwards to creating that immortal desire in you to awaken, forget tha taking, tha booty shakin, I’ve got that one covered, hovered, smothered, Captain Crunch’s mother is no doubt my brother,

    And no, you can’t have that pillow, its for my seat, my treat, my heat, my beat and from my tower, my one story flower keep, so stay off tha lawn, you’re my pawn, my fawn, my sugar daddy thong, what?, you say “something’s wrong”, it’s you, abused by believing you’re abused, set to tha music of evil muse, of believing that all news is on my level of news, I create, I debate, I am my own date, I am tha he who silently befuddles, not yo spectator, watching you juggle my balls, in these halls, off these walls,

    my ways, pitching a curve ball through yo family values window haze, you gotta pay for these stacks of hay, with no needle to be found to smile about or meow, its on tha cork board, pay today, tomorrow and yesterday, it never ends, I am salt’s twin, hear me humbly roar,

    for this tiger’s got no better than your adding yo pick to its hoes quick rip, of tha temples weed, for my need, to have a clean lawn, before dawn, before someone thinks something is going on, tha plant,

    its growing, showing signs of being a lotus transplant, to close to us, gotta spray it, unrelated it, berate it, get it out of the will before the lawyers call it not my will, but the will, of tha people, tha steeple, tha those who said ‘yes’ and ‘no’ to my ‘you knows, its got to go, cause it said ‘yes’ at dinner, but meant ‘no’ when things got thinner. Throw, blow, back to driving yo used, bald tires, rattling Renaissance Renault,

    and yes, there’s a back door, in tha floor, which is custom fit to meet my get up and get’s grip, so don’t think it, it ain’t not as easy as buying me a 20,000 dolla trinket, its finger print activated, modulated, programilated and if your thinking of holding my hand, swiping a print or two, think twice, thrice, fo there is no backup dice fo this, my vice,

    my squad has got me covered twice, with way too much fourth way hiss, for yo mongoose to ever do anything but miss, so spin all yo wont in Oregon House, doubt capital of tha world, cause I’m already in tha plane and tha train, two places at once, I’ve got my own back, heading for Maine, launching from there to set up shop near tha Red Square and Spain.’

    ‘Break it!’ you say. But its no ordinary bottle, throttle, model of tha universe in an uptown purse, or worse, ah curse, that you suppose superstition will reverse, know its real Rob, its our job, to get back to god, not Rob, not bush, not push, not would, could, should aggravations that just push, push, push tha FoF into tha ice age of no heart, all apart, cyber love in a latex drug glove,

    be warned, this is cancer in tha form of candy corn and everyday is Halloween in yo in between,

    this ain’t no ‘many moments’, there’s only one, right here, no lasers, no dry ice smoke, no toke, no joke, no erection dope, its only this moment, without a red riding hood bonnet, Shakespeare sonnet, damn, get up on it, rock on out with your solo Gucci, that’s what we are here fo anyway,

    not to sway, get paid, get laid, get weighed at Weight Watcher’s hall of fame, Who’s Who don’t know yo FoF names, asunder yo inner man is torn, as far as they are concerned yo ain’t no more than ‘I Love Lucy’ or ‘Got Porn?’

    and damn, Lucy’s Ricky died before the fellowship could get him.

    Yeah, I wrote it, FoF didn’t know it, imagined it couldn’t be spun by a man number whatever, wearing tha ninja Hermes harem sweater for tha better, yeah boy, though this ain’t no toy, you bloogers felt it coming, tha silk painting wonda

    and when you listen to Bach, know that he’s rocking through this def damn wid me, off tha clock, with dual locks, just in case tha door comes swinging against its hinges ‘one way’, today, tonight, do not fright,

    we are all here, tha mirror is tha seer, look deep, be present to what you’ll have forever, you, you and you, without tha boo!, poo, “I know better you, than you do.”

    Startling isn’t it, that the FoF play could bring about such a deaf jam beat, without tha sacrificial meat, without tha wax last supper feast, tha repeats of the number of tha beast…

    This is your test, forget tha rest, tha best, tha family crest, you’ll die holding this rhyme in yo soul divine, sticking to tha roof of your pineal gland like peanut butter and marmalade jam, I can betcha a million dolla, you’ll be humming this crazy sheet straight till eternity’s summon,

    Word!
    ___________________________________

    Love to you all.


  321. Thank you Sunny day # 287 for this video.

    It was interesting to look at Robert Burton speaking,
    Specially to lock the image with to ‘pause’ button.

    I Asked myself the question: is this a good or a bad person?

    I did the same thing with Krisnamurti:

    (Who was the leader of a big ‘spiritual’ organization but
    did had the courage to stop the whole thing, when he
    understood that no organization can lead a man to the
    truth)

    If you do this experiment the facts will speak for themselves.

    (and always keep an critical mind towards people who make
    a living selling you something, whether it be material, ideas
    or feelings – this is something every business man knows)


  322. Dear Vera!

    Thank you for asking. Thank you Gabriella F.

    It seems I’ve said much of what I needed to say and I’m more eager to listen now. Thank you Unoanimo for guessing! I’m not graduates but am honored by the comparison of those paragraphs.

    Still close to Oregon House but packed and ready.

    Going home where the sun hits the earth into greens even so deep beneath, into the emeralds.

    The soul roams lost and disoriented,
    no where to set the eyes but the I.
    What next?
    Where?
    How many times do we need to be born in one lifetime?

    There we stand, like sieves of truths and lies.

    The hand stretches out but can find nowhere to touch.
    Objects fall out of one’s hands like sporadic rain but people cling to the heart and need to be talked out:”Please leave, for your presence is no less painful than your absence”.

    And yet it is barely the first or the last time that everything disappears. The heart closed at five, at nine, at 12, at 18, at 22, at 27, at thirty, then you thought it could open for the Fellowship. Year after year it delivered itself, having nothing else to deliver.

    But the world is not the little pond of words. Consciousness is in the hands and feet. In the way you touch and step on the ground. If you cannot see it, it is not there no matter how well you’ve learnt to imagine it.

    Robert’s discourse is a monster that eats up the will of the people around him. Sucks up their vitality. They dry up like flowers without water and crystallize like plastic flowers.
    They no longer need any water once they’ve reached that point.

    Not once have I desired to reenter the gates. The whole place tastes of plastic. Only the people still linger. If you would only leave I could leave you alone. All of your faces and bodies are here with me. From Susan to Robert. I will honor each one of you with a special ritual and ask you to take your selves peacefully away.

    How many dead can you count in your list that you never made a ritual for? Is that why you are so lifeless? or just, living pain?
    or do you really think “buffering it all” does not show?


  323. 324

    Advertising signs that con you
    Into thinking you’re the one
    That can do what’s never been done
    That can win what’s never been won
    Meantime life outside goes on
    All around you.

    You lose yourself, you reappear
    You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
    Alone you stand with nobody near
    When a trembling distant voice, unclear
    Startles your sleeping ears to hear
    That somebody thinks
    They really found you.

    A question in your nerves is lit
    Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
    Insure you not to quit
    To keep it in your mind and not fergit
    That it is not he or she or them or it
    That you belong to.

    (C) Bob Dylan


  324. In reply to 266 Spencer St Clair
    Hello Spencer, so very good to know you are alive and well.
    I was M’Aitre ‘D at the lodge right after you in the mid seventies.

    I have just started reading your post and
    I agree with what you are saying.

    I question the logical form of your presentation
    (“The chief concern of logic is how the truth of some propositions is connected with the truth of another”) in that you are writing as if you are presenting an argument rather than personal experience.
    You argue that words can never be what they describe-
    so we need to go past words
    to the reality of the experience and give up the words.
    This is very true but the argument is futile.
    Once you have successfully argued that words are meaningless
    it should be the end of the topic. Right?
    It is always a poor argument to use words to argue against words.
    By its nature this medium is only words.
    There is no other way to use the blog.
    The better one is at the use of words,
    the closer each individual can come to clearly stating
    their own experience, their present reality and own that reality,
    the more value what we share has as a communication.

    I have gained so much from the heartfelt post’s of people I have never met.
    Individuals who through the Fellowship Of Friends share with me the profound desire to awaken.
    What we share on the blog is our experience, individual understanding and unique being..
    The more one avoids theories and the closer to being honest about ourselves
    and how we have gotten to this point in our journeys
    the more value we have for each other.

    No one of us has the truth we all see a part.
    Yet we each need to hold to their own truth this is consciousness and will.

    The reality of the school is that it is
    the efforts and consciousness of all who have been touched by the school
    that is the soul of the school.
    There is no other than to be yourself.
    There is no other when than now.
    It is not necessary to be either right or correct.
    There are a few Fellowship of Friends apologists
    that still appear from time to time.
    They are not even interesting enough to use as target practice
    That is practice using logic and arguementitive techniques.
    Although one who post’s as Howard Carter is almost irisistable.
    He is as nimble as Gerards thinking.
    The Fellowship Of Friends moniters this blog and the wiki constantly.
    They are very sensitive to the truth.

    You state “I have learned that ANY system that is supposedly related to enlightenment is by its very nature the ANTEDOTE( I don’t know what this word means do you mean antitheses which means opposite) for awakening.”
    Again I would challenge the truth of this on logical grounds.
    What you state is any system of enlightment creates the opposite. This is a general or universal argument . For a universal argument to be true it must always be true.
    There cannot be even one exception.
    This means If anyone at any time used any system to awaken successfully this is false.
    This argument takes a specific and uses it to prove a general rule.

    If I say “in my experience my becoming fixed in any belief and any relationship in whatever way to any system whether social, of beliefs or ideas in relation to growth, inner development, spiritual development or awakening then the process ceases”.
    To me this is a true statement. It is a conditional arguement. The condition is becoming fixed.
    It also explains how sincere individuals fix on some part of a system or some understanding
    of a teaching and imagine it to be true.
    This is a truth contained in the Orpheus myth
    Orpheus is esoteric truth taken from Egypt as a whole
    surviving in fragements in the Greek schools each with its part. It is also how the knowledge of higher laws which exists as a whole on higher planes can only be experienced in parts on this one.
    I have a wonderful graphical tool that illustartes this idea.
    This conditional argument is both logical and agrees with my personal experience.

    In fact I was just thinking how difficult it is to be open to anything new any more.
    However this blog is new.
    I see this as a major event in the Fellowship Of Friends octave.
    I think this indicates a si-do interval.
    It is how the seventh note of the octave goes back to effect the third note.
    Interesting that what is now revealed as facts was
    the hidden force behind events at the third note

    I have been posting and reading for several weeks.
    Already I have experienced a rebirth of memories long forgotten.
    People, places, events.
    I can almost see you going up the hill past the barn to set up for lunch.

    You say “Notice when you are daydreaming… of course, you are not being present… in FOF terms, you are not dividing your attention.. but what is noticing that you are daydreaming?”

    I call this is a degree of self remembering.
    The language does not change the reality.
    You are welcome to use what ever words you chose to describe the experience.
    I also observe that in the Fellowship Of Friends when
    I experienced a change of being
    I would think that it was outside of me
    this is faulty perception
    as it assumes others think as I did or that I can know what others think.
    Neither is true.

    I am not invested in the system.
    I can use many terms but it does work for me bat least internaly. Intelectual center, features, these are as real as the furniture. The language my not always work externally. I have years of experiencing rephrasing my thinking in other forms.
    In Life school I learned that the first step in writing a paper is to chose a theoretical perspective. This involves the choice of language. Is this the humanities? Am I reveiwing a play?Work of Art? Poem? Is it Anthropology? Psychology ? Each field has its languages and theoretical framwork.

    Though to explain myself .I gave up the system.
    I did not use the system and gave it little thought forf at least 10 years and only got back into the ideas through
    Alcoholics Anonymous which is also a system with a language.

    “we have to do something in order to reach that final prize, awakening… we have to meditate.. or divide our attention… or transform negativity… that is all bullshit, and we have all bought it…”
    again your truth not mine. Funny because when I read your post I see this as an expression of an individual thought process, the development of an individual understanding and even a passion in the presentation all as results of efforts not in spite of them or without having needed to go through the process.. I believe in process.The six processes as Collin presented them are not theories but realities I observe all the time.

    You ask
    “Do you really want to awaken?
    Ask yourself this question, and be honest?
    Are you willing to give up everything?”

    Willing or unwilling I have given up I have given up everything so many times I lose count.
    I attended some 12 schools before finishing high school. New Your Public Schools , Catholic Schools, Catholic Prep and boarding schools, Mititary school and California public schools. I was the perenial newcomer, new guy outsider.
    I gave up everything when I left L.A. and moved to San Diego with my first wife.
    I gave up everything when I joined the Fellowship Of Friends. I gave up school, muisic, my girlfriends and eventually my wife.I sold my 1960’s Gibson Stereo for my first farm donation.I gave up everything when my wife left me and I stayed at the farm working for free.
    I went to Phoenix with nothing but some clothes and work books in 1976. I moved to New Port Beach with One suit case.
    I started with nothing when I married again and moved into the Kensignton house.
    I gave up everything when I left the Fellowship Of Friends.
    I gave up everything when My second wife and I separated.
    I lost almost everything when my partner in the Band I started used all the Band funds for Cocaine. I lived in my van for 6 months while I delivered airfrieght until I could rent a loft of my own to use as a living place/rehearsal studio/storage place. I lost everything when I became addicted to meth amphetimines and was illegally evicted. I moved in with some younger Musicans and taught them how to form a band.
    I lived with another former student Gorden Queen who was kind enough to try and help as I sank into alcoholism. I lost everything as was sleeping on peoples couches or in the back seat of my large white 1977 cadilac Eldorado. I went into a mental hospital, lived in a shelter, moved to a hotel and strated smokong crack. Again I had nothing. I worked at Guitar center. Only through luck did I escape homelessness. I finally gave up drugs, had the alcohilism taken from me and even eventually quit smoking cigerettes.
    I have been a drunk, drug addict, homeless, been so sick I couldn’t walk , I’ve been blind. (Diabetes) I became crippled and couldn’t play the guitar. I gained weight until I was 350 lbs. Now I’m 280 and struggling.
    So I am actually knowledgable on a practical level at both giving up everything and having everything taken away.

    One obstacle I faced in going to Alcoholics Anynomous was my intellectual vanity.
    I had grown up always being the smartest person I knew.
    I was reading at college level in the 4th grade.
    The Fellowship Of Friends helped cultivate my intellectual arrogance because most of the teachings agreed with my own experience, my own thinking and understanding.
    It was very difficult to give up my intellectual arrogance and
    obviously I haven’t been entirely successful.

    Its just know I will stand up and argue for my opinions.
    When I joined AA. They make it simple
    “Take the cotton out of your ears and stick it in your mouth”.
    Rule One -if you want to quit drinking. You cannot continue to be who you are. You have to become a new person.
    I used “not my will but thy will” as a mantra for many years. I also went to recovery meetings of some kind 2 or 3 times a day for several years. As well as therapy for years.
    What I had to do was address all the “issues” of my childhood.
    Not what I imagined I would be doing at all.
    So I became exposed to many forms of transformational psychology.

    Can you imagine I thought I would be conscious at 35.
    Instead I became an Alcoholic. I went through ten years of hell.
    Definitely the dark night of the soul.
    There really are different levels as Dante said and
    there are different levels on the way back.

    And yes I entirely agree with your experience but I regard the present as a result of the past.
    I cannot be who I am unless I accept everything of who I’ve been.
    I cannot remember myself and not remember all parts of myself in every sense.
    “but it is my opinion that RB did have a genuine awakening back in the late 60’s, but that he never completed the process. Awakening IS a process.”

    I agree . The first experiences of higher centers can produce intense states
    and many new thoughts and insights.
    IT does however also create new and more interesting
    forms of imagination as new impressions flood various centers.
    The lower cannot contain the higher.
    The number one failure of those who get so far is the same
    we all begin with.
    Having experienced genuine experiences of higher centers
    one now imagines one is awake.
    This is not the sign of a man #5 but a man #4 who has passed the mi-fa interval
    in the octave of self remembering.
    I believe Robert was absolutely sincere but that has long since passed.

    It is my experience and my opinion that
    the normal result of prolonged efforts to remember oneself and divide attention
    is the experience of higher centers.
    Robert has never acknowledged this in his students
    and because of his criminal activities in lying about his sexuality
    he has been unable to accept this in students.
    Conscience and consciousness are different aspects of the same thing.
    As long as he required or requires those around him to accept lies
    he denies them the development of conscience.
    At a certain point one must have the freedom to express oneself
    both in creative ways and in ethical ways.

    My own spiritual experiences, hallucinations, visions or higher centers whatever
    teach me I am asleep.
    This then becomes essentially a simple process.
    When the constant experience of my own sleep
    becomes emotional enoughit it reaches a sufficent intensity and I awaken briefly.
    I become my own shock.

    This is my truth.
    I am not selling it to you or any one.
    However it is also just words. Just as we began. I discuss the words themselves.
    Words inherently place limitations on what we try to describe.
    As you said the best we can with words is to create a signpost or maybe a map.

    I did some experiments in the 1980’s with line and color.
    I was thinking some what along similar lines as you.
    I wondered if I could create a form of communication
    that did not require the knowledge of some system to understand.
    I primarily based my work on ideas from Goethe’s Color theory, and
    indications by Gurdjieff in “All and Everything
    as well as direct observation of Persian Carpets and Some painters
    primarily the impressionist.
    I spent extended periods looking at a panel of Monet’s “Water Lilies” at “The Palace of the Legion of Honor”.in S.F.
    I produced work which I thought useful but have not been successful at using them as intended.

    Anyway great to hear your voice.

    There was a post entitled “In Memoriam”
    so many friends have passed.
    Welcome again
    -Forgive my logic crap. When I started using the internet my writing was so bad
    I got constant criticism eventually I returned to school.
    One class I took was Logic..
    I got two year certificates in Community Social Services and Substance abuse .
    Fields in which my personal experience and work experience give me the equivalent to Bachelors degree’s
    I also continued and got two AA’s in the same subjects.
    This meant two years (it took me three) of College level work.
    I had always felt badly at my lack of “education”
    I gave up school to after joining the Fellowship Of Friends to move to the Farm.
    I suffered from the lack of communication and writing skill’s so
    So I’m a little bit happier about that.


  325. on 16 Jun 2007 at 8:12 am
    278 Yesri baba
    I don’t have any studio. I don’t know what print you are refering too. Some I did with watercolor on graphpaper in the 80’s therer are originals. Interesting most people see then and assume they are computer graphics.

    Some I did with fractal programs so they only exist as digital information.
    This refers to two octaves of collections of work,
    A third series is moving graphics. Somewhat similiar to what you see at major concerts and large TV productions like the Grammies . My moving graphics however have one theme out of many one out of one many – They are meant to communicate specific information on laws and processes.
    You are welcome to come by or I have some loaded in my notebook.
    I ussually don’t hangout at Coffe shops but sometimes I’m out at clubs were I can play.
    Scottduncan@frys.com


  326. Joe Average wrote

    “A few members, primarily out of basic subsistence needs, have/had rifles and occasionally hunt/ed to put food on the table. Otherwise, the idea that gun ownership among students is widespread is nonsense.”

    This is probably true although if there was no arsenal in 1998 or whenever the nuclear war was to occur Robert did not read nearly enough science fiction. There was a time in the first year of the vineyard when there was a drought and it was not possible to keep deer and Rabbits away from the nice moist plants. There was a nightly crew who drove around with spotlights shooting Rabbit’s and Deer. There was a special permit for this.


  327. 287 Sunny day
    I looked at the video and it saddens me to see him reduced to such a state. He almost mumbels and repeats himself. he looks ill. When is this dated. The other video’s showed him in a much healthier and more rational state.


  328. 306 joe average
    I have been to the Berkeley slam. The Starry Plough is around the corner from where I’ve lived since 1989.
    Scott


  329. 287. Sunny day. Thanks. do you have this backed up so that it can be re-installed if it should somehow disappear?
    320. Gary. Yes, its a good wee story and deeper than it first appears.
    323.Peter. The pause is also good for politicians, it helps to see the micro-movements that give away the underlying truth of the facade.
    325. A former student. You sound like a real student and in my ears thats a good thing, i am afraid i have to agree with everything you say about the work. Post 287, shows how the blog can transcend words. You have really paid for your understanding, welcome back from Hades. P.S. The hunting crew once asked me if i would drive for them, it was an unintentional photograph, making me look to see why they would even consider asking me. I had a mechanical dislike for their leader, who i suspected was hired as a plant, to give everyone extra friction. There were irate men who came to the kitchen door of the academy a few times and by the way, not all of Roberts conquests were wimps, some were lean, mean, killing machines. We had a taser and a night stick in the Academy and a crappy old single barrel shotgun in the gatehouse at the time, not even pump action, many friends had handguns and pump action shotguns. Oh and by the way some of my friends who have taken the twelve steps are the most wonderfull and humble people i know. Thanks for sharing your story, best regards, Cy.


  330. on June 17, 2007 at 11:46 am You-me-us-they

    To Unoanimo:
    can we stop the ‘tha’, ‘tho”, “yo”, “ya”, “dat, “waz” rap ?

    You write: “(…) just prolonging what’s already expired, (…)”
    What an inspired/ing ray of light…

    To A Former Student:
    Beautiful sharing! Thanks.

    To us all:
    Gratitude.


  331. on June 17, 2007 at 12:01 pm You-me-us-they

    “Forever trusting who you are,
    and,
    nothing else matters.”
    (Metallica)

    Gratitude.


  332. #326 A Former Student: I must confess, I’m impressed with your failures and success. I called my sister looking for an address and she said, “where are you”? I said, “in the tenderloin district”. She said, “get out of there” and then gave her reasons. I hung up walked a few paces and heard a female voice standing in a door way saying, “hey You, come look and see”. As I walked past I said, “What you’re showing I’ve seen enough to last a lifetime”. Then I turned down an unlit alleyway always an eye out for that beaconing porch light.

    Peter # 325. I dont know why but as I read I started laughing and giggling.


  333. on June 17, 2007 at 2:43 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    #287 Sunny Day. Is that a recent photo of Robert?


  334. on June 17, 2007 at 3:44 pm Free Essence

    Isis Notes:

    More students are on the fence and ready to leave.

    There are some “FREEEEEE” meetings (without RB) so students can Feeeeeeeeeeeel good about themselves.

    Some galleria boys received new cars.

    Yesterday at A’doro Robert and the entourage were dining. There was a young visitor
    seating in another table. At the end of the lunch Robert went for the table where the new young boy was seating to say something to him, it seemed pathetic and ridiculous. A 64 years old man chasing a young boy. Well from one angle business is as usual.

    Graduates (G.G):

    We were friends in SF. I am still around in Isis I will email you a personal letter.
    When did you find out about the blog?
    You are still as bit queeny

    Laura:

    Were you in New Orleans? I love your courage and truthfulness.

    Old Fish in The Sea: (13)

    Your posting was truthful and encouraging, it will help me to leave, thanks


  335. post 329 / 287 video with Robert

    it is probably from beginning 2005, during that time Robert announced the coming end of the Gurdjieff-Ouspensky period.


  336. on June 17, 2007 at 4:16 pm You-me-us-they

    To all:
    Just signed up to the Greater FOF site.

    What a gathering of lovely beings! What a warm initiative!
    Have a look and consider joining.
    Since they also promote this blog, you get a fast engine
    to travel from there to here…
    Lovely, is it not ?

    When union prevails…

    ‘Out
    Of a geat need
    We all all holding hands
    And climbing’
    Hafiz

    Gratitude.


  337. Re. #296–Lust For Life–” Today I met someone who had been in the Madame de Saltzman group.”

    That was your day! The universe brought you what you had wished for in the past, in spades.
    Imo, there is more in that post than in “Search–“, or in this slog as far as that goes. Thanks for the resonance.

    Joy to All, Renald B. (short be) aka Rb


  338. Roommate #94

    My apologies for not saying this sooner! Thank you for sharing you story about Miles. We all have pieces of the puzzle hidden in our memories! I really appreciate hearing more from you. Thanks again for coming out to play.

    Unoanimo #322

    “…this marmalade jam is dedicated to whale riders everywhere.”

    What’s this? Cut the crap, dude. This feels like an attempt to invalidate me. Now where did you learn to do that? Are you a friend to my enemy? I reached out to you deeply in my last post, can you feel that? If you don’t want to know yourself, that’s fine by me. Although it is not in my nature, I’ll sadly step around you if that’s what you wish.

    A former student #326

    Thanks for sharing your story. I read it twice.

    “I cannot be who I am unless I accept everything of who I’ve been.”

    You speak from being, the fourth dimensional time-body. I admire that.

    “The first experiences of higher centers can produce intense states and many new thoughts and insights. IT does however also create new and more interesting forms of imagination as new impressions flood various centers.”

    This is how you catch a monkey! The Academy/Galleria is the vessel in which the fruit is placed. You can see it and smell it; you can even reach in and grasp it, but once you do, you are ‘captivated’. Other monkeys around only make you grasp tighter. Someone has to distract you by tickling you under your armpit until you release your grip.

    “As long as he (RB) required or requires those around him to accept lies he denies them the development of conscience.”

    I will second that. How about the cheating and stealing, too?

    “The number one failure of those who get so far is the same
    we all begin with. Having experienced genuine experiences of higher centers one now imagines, one is awake.”

    Let me ask you something, Scott, (and anyone else). Just for a moment, put aside your self doubt (or self loathing, if need be). If you could imagine you were ‘awake’ for longer periods of time, what would you do? How would you use your being other than you already are?


  339. on June 17, 2007 at 4:50 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    #337: How do you join the site?


  340. 334. Arthur . In Tenderloin. Now i think i get it, it was your sister?


  341. on June 17, 2007 at 5:27 pm You-me-us-they

    To Wake up little suzy…, post 340

    Please, go up till “Janna”, post 275, this same page.

    She has been promoting this site, consistently, since a while.

    I believe you need an “invitation” and if you contact her
    (her e-mail address appears on that very post),
    she will surely guide you, if to join is your intention.

    Good luck!

    Gratitude.
    PS: To Janna:
    keep informing the actual bloggers (and all) about this meaningful initiative you are promoting.
    As you can see, consistency+ consistency will help!
    Thanks to you.


  342. Scott “Duncan” –

    Thanks for sharing your story. There is so much humainty contained within it.

    I can still picture that sly sparkle in your eyes.

    Tim


  343. 337

    Very cool.


  344. on June 17, 2007 at 6:00 pm Living the Questions

    Regrding post #12-266, Spencer St. Clair
    Thank-you for your most excellent post, Spencer. I remember you from such a long time ago, it now seems like a dream.

    I agree with your view of the awakening process, as it parallels my own journey since leaving the FOF. I attended a Satyam Nadeen (“From Onion’ to Pearls”) weekend satsang/workshop in San Rafael in the late 90’s and it began a shift in my basic assumptions, perceptions and approach to awakening. Since this initial shift, this internal process has been quite gradual with many ups and downs, as I fall back into the old patterns of trying to’ do’ awakening for periods of time. I eventually emerge from these periods of resistance and thrashing about like an old windmill back into a state of surrender/acceptance with a deeper, fuller understanding of my Self. It is always a relief to gently sink back into harmony with ‘All That Is’, quite like falling with arms open onto your back into a huge, fluffy pile of leaves with complete trust. It is lovely to become nobody doing nothing.


  345. on June 17, 2007 at 7:14 pm You-me-us-they

    To us all:

    Let me be legitimately a tiny bit queeny (emotionnally over excited for the non initiated) here,
    (By the way, last night, I met a Queen,
    I mean the Queen of the country I live in…
    which was not that much of a big deal to my heart!)
    by expressing my joy in joining the site promoted by Janna
    (see post 275, same page).

    In no time, full house!
    Friends all over the screen, coming to you with greatings, hugs, kisses and what not!

    Did I really have to leave the FOF for all this to happen?

    Gratitude


  346. 339.Whalerider. Very creative monkey trap solution.
    Beats the original. I also like to apply it to me, every moment. Regards Cy.


  347. on June 17, 2007 at 8:00 pm Spencer St Clair

    Response to A Former Student
    Post #326)

    This is perhaps the main reason I posted, to reconnect with people like you! Best to write to me at my email, which is enhance44@earthlink.net instead of this blog.. but for now, we have this site on which to be in touch.

    It is correct to question the logical part of my presentation, as it is totally lacking. What a relief to not have to depend on logic! My thoughts are totally stream-of-consciousness, and I rarely edit what I am saying, so there will always be logical gaps… and more importantly, logic is NOT what it is cracked up to be… lol… not at all, at all… Logic is really about the control of the mind, and that is what is starting to be abandoned here. Awakening is really about giving up control. I do want to mention here that if I said that we need to go past words and give them up, then I was mistaken in a way.. I don’t think I said that, but may have. It is not a matter of giving up words.. that is not necessary. We cannot kill the mind… cannot really kill the ego.. because if we did, all that would be left would be a murderer! There is absolutely nothing wrong with words or with logic. What is important (at least to me) is that we don’t believe that they are what is the Truth.. (note the capital “T”) Words are valuable as pointers…. NOT as a statement of Truth. Get the distinction? I thought you would!

    I totally agree that the medium of the blog is about words, and I value that. Yes, it is important (in a relative sort of way) to be as accurate as possible with using words to state what is true for each person.. and yes, I have seen a lot of posts that have been of value to me, but far more that seem to be an argument with what is.. and perhaps that is a stage some of us go through. We go through that anger and blame until we see we don’t need to do that any more.. and what a relief it is.

    You mentioned my use of the word, “antedote”, and I used it in the sense of being something that eases this sometimes fire that is attempting to consume us. In other words, it sooths the itch, and can easily cause us to abandon the quest. This is not absolutely true, as there are some who work within the structure of a system yet recognize the system for what it is. A wonderful example of this is one of my favorite Catholics, St. Francis of Asissi (did I spell that right?_To state my point more clearly, any system imposes boundaries, and awakening cannot be contained within any boundaries. I want to quote a poem now, one from Hafiz.

    I have a thousand brilliant lies for the question: How are you?
    I have a thousand brilliant lies for the question, What is God?
    If you think that the Truth can be known from words,
    If you think that the Sun and the Ocean
    can pass through that tiny opening called the mouth,
    O someone should start laughing!
    Someone should start wildly laughing~ Now!

    There! That’s a much better way of saying it. If one is following a system, any system, it is important to know at the deepest level that liberation comes by the abandonment of the system, by seeing through the system. I am fortunate to have found a path that is not a system, and also see that even this starts to become one in the mind. The mind is NOT the enemy.. the mind is fine.. not a problem… if one learns to not take it as what is true. I will quote a teacher of mine.

    The mind is insane!
    It believes things that aren’t true
    It imagines futures that never will exist
    It remembers pasts that often times never really happened that way
    It thinks that everything it thinks is true, even when time & time& time again, it is proven not true
    It still marches forward, contrary to all evidence.
    By what other standard would you judge something insane?

    I would like to correct what appears to be a misperception of something I said. I mentioned that if one is daydreaming, that there is something noticing it. You mentioned that this is a degree of self-remembering. It appears to me that you may have thought that I was speaking of coming out of the daydream, of “remembering” to be more awake, and I am not talking about that at all.. even without coming out of daydreaming, anger, envy, whatever, there is STILL a awareness of it…One can see that even in retrospect..there is ALWAYS something aware of every moment in our lives, even if there is not conscious awareness at all. Does this make sense to you? I was shocked to start seeing this..

    About self-remembering. There is no such thing, not really. One needs to merely ask the question, “who is remembering oneself?” Then ask the question, “Can the self be remembered?” The self is absolutely infinite. It is All. How can one remember this? Who is going to forget the self??? Since the self is who we are, and not this mass of impulses of the body and mind (meaning Buddhist mind, which includes emotions, sensations, 6th sense, etc). I am perhaps quibbling with words, but I think it is important to see what words we use to describe our lives. Even the Buddhist term, “Mindfulness” is missing the point.. Who is it who is to become mindful? This is again an attempt of the mind to put Consciousness into its corral, to pass the Sun and the Ocean through one’s mouth. Both self-rembembering and mindfulness are attempts to control, and awakening is the absolute surrender, the giving up of all control. My favorite teacher, Adyashanti, has told the story of his awakening. He was a young man, almost insane with his desire for awakening. He had been a competitive bicycle racer, so he was used to great efforts, training past the point of pain, etc… and he viewed his path in the same manner. He was a Zen Buddhist, and the built a meditation hut in the back yard, and got up very early every day and meditated for two hours before work.. then went to work, came home and meditated.. then ate and meditated some more.. intense guy!!! One day, he became absolutely determined to awaken, and decided to sit in his hut until he awoke.. of course, this is also the story of Buddha under the Bodhi Tree… NOTHING was going to stop him… Well, young Steven Larry Gray sat and sat and sat, using every technique he knew… all morning.. all afternoon.. Finally, he opened his eyes, overcome by his absolute failure, and said aloud, “I can’t do this!”. those were his last words before awakening. It was his surrender that brought awakening to him. I suspect this is what happened with Buddha too.. because I know a lot of people who have awakened, and every one of them had come to the point of truly surrendering, in one way or another. Some of them had practiced some technique for years.. some of them knew nothing.. one of them was a terrorist in the 70s who thought that spirituality was just a crutch… and he awoke when a teacher came into the federal prison he was in and said four words, “Hi, you must be John.” He had given up on all the ego’s desires, needs, opinions. He was truly beyond hope. So that is why I say what I do about self-remembering. Awakening is not about the state that comes when we have a moment of deep clarity, of deep peace… awakening is when we have abandoned everything… all hope.. all beliefs.. all concepts. I personally think that Ouspensky had a wonderful awakening with Gurdjieff, and then his mind took over, and he put everything into a system… and was caught himself in that system until he came to the truth at the end of his life. I cannot know that. It is only what I think, and I might be wrong… but it works for me… lol…

    I do want to make one point about what I said about thinking that we have to DO something in order to awaken, meditate, divide one’s attention, etc… I said that is bullshit. And it is.. we don’t HAVE TO do anything.. meditation is great as long as one really gets what it is.. I know lots of people who have meditated for hours every day for 30+ years, and they are not awake.. they are just crystalized in the idea of meditation.. you see, when we think that we have to do anything at all in order to awakeni, then awakening is IN THE FUTURE, and it can never happen in the future.. only NOW.. there is never a future, actually. Have you ever known a future to happen? Only NOW happens. There is no need to perfect ourselves, to hone our minds, our consciousness.. there is nothing that needs to be improved in order for us to become what we already are! You have your beliefs that this is not true, and how many people do you see awakening through these beliefs? How many people did you see awaken in the FOF? How many through TM or through other disciplines that focus on future attainments? Yes, meditation can be helpful.. yes, having certain awarenesses can be helpful.. yes, developing compassion can be helpful, but none of those will bring awakening.. I can think of one person in particular whose whole life is about compassion, and that person is clearly not awakened..( no names here.. ) True compassion is not a prerequisite of awakening, but something that is an attribute of awakening.. with total awakening. (meaning with the completion of the process of awakening)

    You mentioned that you got back into the ideas of the FOF when you went through AA.. I am seeing that AA is perhaps one of the best “schools” in the world.. because so many people there have really come to an end.. where they can begin to really give up.. I have known of a couple who have awakened through AA… I am continually surprised at what I have seen come through this organization.. Your story is moving… It can be seen as sad, but really is not.. as your story is first of all not who you are, or even were. Your story is a series of events that have lead to now… and none of that really is who you are.. Who you are.. who each of us is.. has nothing to do with our stories.. who we are is far larger than any story.. In fact, it is our attachment to our stories that keep us stuck… It sure did for me for a while.

    Please write to me at enhance44@earthlink.net if you want to talk further. I only go to this blog site occasionally, and can easily miss a post…
    Namaste’ old friend,
    Spencer
    PS.. I want to tell a story of some things that haunted me for years after leaving the FOF… and about the resolution. It may help some people.. I will write more about that in a few hours…
    Blessings to all


  348. Tim Campion #279 and Gary Williamson #284: I never heard RB say it , but I heard it on the FOF grapevine that Bob Dylan was a #5 Venus-Mercury with a chief feature of tramp.

    Even though I’m contributing to this blog in a small way, I still consider myself as I did the two years I was in FOF. An on-looker.

    In the Fourth Way material a theory states that personality (mask) begins forming about age three. By age ten it set for life and very little change occurs until death.

    That must explain some of the smart asses that consistently repeat themselves.


  349. Hi guys, just a reminder (again):
    If you wish to be included in ex-members Contact List – please send the info you wish to list to
    malaec@optonline.net
    I have received lots of e-mails already, and list is getting big. I am making it in a simple Excel file, and will soon e-mail it to all who are listed. The goal is to e-mail it by July 1st.

    The intentions behind creating such a list: to help like-minded people stay connected, to locate friends, to arrange for a possible place to stay while travelling, to announce jobs, to ask for help, to invite people for dinners, concerts and other events, etc. Friendship and connections don’t have to dissappear once you quit FOF!
    Most people include their name and e-mail address, also: phone, address, years in FOF, website – whatever you feel like listing.

    AND, GREAT NEWS: new website “Greater Fellowship” that was started by Michael J. is up and running and is fun, fun, fun! It’s an international virtual community that helps us to stay connected. There is an opportunity to contact each other, post pictures, videos, jobs, stories etc.
    This site works by invitation only, so it’s pretty secure – you only invite whom you want to invite. It is also password protected.

    Please e-mail me with your info and I’ll send an invitation link. Other friends who joined can invite you too.

    “One of the great things in the Fellowship of Friends was the network of friends throughout the world. We still have the friends, just need the network and I hope this contributes to it.” Michael J.

    With love,
    Janna

    Send your thoughts and/or info to:
    malaec@optonline.net


  350. Dear Whalerider:

    I want to write you a longer letter soon,
    though I must keep this short for now.

    I want to say that you are very mistaken, totally, about
    all of my aspirations towards you,

    Your ‘seems to’ could also be pigeonholed as having come from
    someone we all know all too ‘not’ well,

    please, do not aim your scope on me, I am not Robert Burton.

    I will show you something on this blog, an example of
    ‘seems’, that at first the automatic mind takes as plausible, right and moves on, I wish only to go deeper, for instance look at this, it was posted by #287…

    Robert Burton places his whole interpretation on the fact that had the 3 beings been complete Man #7’s C-Influence would have spelled the entire word ANGEL, out on the license plate, now, looking at the video, it ‘seems to’ make sense, but wait Robert Burton, you’ve forgotten one thing,

    Objective Reality,

    The license plate you’re holding up already has 7 characters on it home boy,

    It ain’t got no more room for an 8th, because we don’t have 8 characters in the prison plate die setting machine!
    ________________________

    Now, had a student stood up and said, “Robert, there’s no room for an 8th character, we only have 7 on California plates, what then, perhaps another ‘in a can’ inspiration for Part two FOF dope rap extended version?

    ____________________________

    Believe it or not Whalerider, I have paid for every blood vein in my heart of hearts and I believe you have to, let’s start from there.

    ___________

    Love to you all.


  351. on June 17, 2007 at 9:37 pm Was KathleenW

    104 KathrynF

    TO: Cyclops, wasKathleenW
    RE: Messages from Michael

    Kathryn, somehow I missed this when you posted it. Thank you!! Very interesting, and not at all surprising.

    Yorgos moved to Mendocino County at some point, and died not long ago. I’ve been here for four years, and it might have been right about the time I moved here. He did have a group here for awhile, some years ago. I never met him, just heard this from people who knew him.


  352. 348 Spencer St Clair
    I admit I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed. I just finished reading. Two nights ago, on a whim, I had written on a piece of paper: “no endless effort is required to make me what I am, because I already am what I am.” It made sense at the time. Now I read the almost exact same words inside your post. And not only those words, you so beautifully said all the things that had been circling in my head while laying awake at night. Well, I am so grateful I am not going to have to make the effort to try and write them down! If yours is a stream of consciousness, consciousness then it is, not as in “conscious man number whatever” , rather as “consciousness operating through our collective hearts and minds in an outpouring of love”.
    Hmmm…I am also feeling a strange tingling in my forehead.
    Does anyone else feel the energy upgrading?

    Feels so good to be a rose


  353. Dear unoanimo and Whale Rider,

    I do not understand what you guys are bickering about. You seem cut from the same cloth. Why not join forces. (Riff off each other?)

    Dear Sandra C,

    Thank you for thinking in a kind way about those friends who are “still in.” BTW, you have friends still in whom you never even met. They are soul brothers and sisters, to bring back from the dead a sixties expression. For me personally, the implication of thinking kind thoughts about Linda K. is a jarring idea (knowing as I do what / who she has become)…but right thinking nonetheless. It brought to mind a children’s book I have read to my kids called A Wrinkle in Time. Victims are victims, even if they appear to go over to the other side; and no one is irredeemable. At least I prefer this more optimistic and life-affirming way of thinking.

    Dear Former Student,

    As others have done, I want to thank you for your sincerity and courage. You asked me a while back about my time as RB’s “wine boy.” This was from 1978 to 1983. I remember you well, and the “sly sparkle” Tim described. I was too new and young and scared in June, 1977 when I first arrived at the farm for older students to pay much attention to. Like you had done, I also worked with a chain saw during this period, and found out later that most of the wood I cut was bulldozed over by the D-8. Water (way, way) under the bridge now…

    People like you (and so many others who are posting here) were validation for me at the time that the FOF provided a living, flexible framewok and form that allowed each to use the work to find their own personal-best path. This changed over time, ever so gradually so that many of us never noticed.

    Dear Spencer St Clair,

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the intrinsic problem with self remembering as a path to consciousness. I have similar views now, though the experience (vs. the aspiration toward the experience) of what we called “self remembering” seems like something different and very legitimate. My questions these days have to do with how to arrive there, and why, and who. The Sequence just seems arrogant to me…more or less the opposite of “surrender” as you describe it. Again, many thanks for your time and care.

    With love to all,

    joseph.granados@gmail.com


  354. Thanks for Joanna, Laura.

    B


  355. 348 Spencer St Clair wrote

    “I do want to make one point about what I said about thinking that we have to DO something in order to awaken, meditate, divide one’s attention, etc… I said that is bullshit. And it is.. we don’t HAVE TO do anything.. meditation is great as long as one really gets what it is.. I know lots of people who have meditated for hours every day for 30+ years, and they are not awake.. they are just crystalized in the idea of meditation.. you see, when we think that we have to do anything at all in order to awakeni, then awakening is IN THE FUTURE, and it can never happen in the future.. only NOW.. there is never a future, actually. Have you ever known a future to happen? Only NOW happens. There is no need to perfect ourselves, to hone our minds, our consciousness.. there is nothing that needs to be improved in order for us to become what we already are!”

    You’re saying it was Steven Gray’s efforts that apparently led to his awakening but then you suggest no-one has to do anything, no meditation, no dividing attention, in order to awaken, but he had to make a great deal of effort to awaken (if he did), yet you’re saying “we don’t HAVE TO do anything”.

    You can only awaken through effort – it’s not just about knowledge, being told about the now, or even being momentarily in the now, it’s also about being, and payment with the currency of effort – prolonged, consistent efforts.

    Yes, there is a surrender, a realization that you’ve given everything and there’s nothing left in the tank but that point is reached only when the payment has been made.

    “Both self-rembembering and mindfulness are attempts to control, and awakening is the absolute surrender, the giving up of all control.”

    Not quite right. First the intensive effort, then the surrender when all efforts are exhausted, then awakening.

    formerfofer
    (1978-1992)


  356. on June 17, 2007 at 11:17 pm Ames Gilbert

    Thank you, Spencer St. Clair for the clarity in your posts (#12-266 and #12-348), and Former Student (#12-326) for your honesty and courage. Both of you are shining lights for yourselves and for us.


  357. formerfofer (356) “You can only awaken through effort” etc.

    You’re very definite about this and it certainly accords with the opinions of most current fofers that I speak to. However, it has not been my experience. The way forward for me was precisely to realise that efforts are completely unnecessary and indeed counter-productive. Who is making the effort? The illusory me. Treating “awakening” as a goal to be achieved by some kind of spiritual exercise was a mistake I made for many years. As has said by others, all that’s required is a slight shift in perception. We’re already there – it’s obvious when you see it!

    On the other hand, “prolonged, consistent efforts” do have their uses, such as enabling one go to the bathroom when constipated.


  358. steve lang wrote:

    “Since there seem to be to many Gurdjieff aficianados lately, could someone please tell me in which book did Gurdjieff write about the tecnique through which one induces first-state by concentrating on the sensation of “coolness against the forehead”? I’ve been using it for years and it works everytime.

    There’s mention of a similar exercise in Robert de Ropp’s “Master Game”, appendix B.

    http://home.earthlink.net/~grharmon/master_game.html

    “VI. COOLING OF THE FOREHEAD: “My forehead is cool.” This exercise, like II, involves extension of voluntary control into an area usually out of the reach of the will. The cooling of the forehead is usually considered a calming and agreeable sensation, one that is effective in inducing drowsiness and sedation.”

    formerfofer
    (1978-1992)


  359. Re: Spencer, FormerFofer, Rhino Neal: “awakening is only possible through prolonged and consistent efforts”/”no it isn’t”

    It seems that this is a moot point. As I see it, there is no contradiction. It is necessary to make lots and lots of efforts and practice hard to personally awaken, before you realize that it isn’t going to get you anywhere, except that it did get you to the point that you realized it. Both is true, both necessary and unnecessary. It’s a paradox, that’s why there’s no use arguing about it.

    I can’t remember was it one of Monty Python’s sketches or somewhere, there was a fortune-teller who prophesied: “Certain things will come to pass before others occur also.” I think that was actually very wise.


  360. c-influence had to hold back Gurdjieff’s, Ouspenski’s and Collin’s developement or they would have had to change all of California license plates to eight characters.


  361. on June 18, 2007 at 12:40 am The Wizard of Iz

    The author of this text is an imaginary person who doesn’t exist except in the minds of those who believe him to be real. Any similarity to real persons or events is pure coincidence.

    “The only way to get something from a School is by owning one”
    The Wizard of Iz

    There exists a kind of man who is destined to direct and dominate. Men that with just one look or a word, enforce their desires where others would need great effort and eloquence. Men who seem to find themselves in a place inaccessible to the rest of humanity, and possess something majestic and incomprehensible which distinguishes them from common men who submit hopelessly to them. Their arguments – when they speak – subjugate more than convince, and originate from a strong and magnetic character that seems more to give orders than present persuasive arguments. Even the strongest wills are subjugated, in a solid and secret bond to these men.

    Speaking simply and without hypocrisy, we can say that human society is divided between those few that dominate and the great majority that suffer domination. As you already know from experience, I belong to that select few that dominate.

    This simple truth has always been disguised particularly in religious and political realms. For centuries every kind of theory has been created which has tended to produce the illusion of “equality” in politics, or “divinity” in spirituality.
    In the political, where the people are really different, we try to make them believe they are equals.
    In the spiritual, where people really are equals, we try to make them believe they are different.

    Having established what seem to me these clear and natural principals of human existence, I’d like to comment on what it means to create and direct an organization like ours that – although small – has all the essential characteristics of any society.

    Any man intending to place himself over and above a group of followers must above all consider the problems of mind control, and the direction of the attention of his disciples.
    Alex was a great teacher of this art, and I learned from him the elementary rules that I would later develop for myself into an original form.
    In my last posting (3/156) I explained how – with the creation of an imaginary and fantastic world full of gods and supernatural events – I was able to imprison many minds and take them where I wanted. The secret is in the creation of an ample belief system that allows any visible contradiction to be resolved by ideas found within the system itself, thereby impeding all personal reflection.
    Due to the subtlety of my influence, and after a certain time, a kind of mind control – originating inside you – became possible. You began to manipulate yourselves internally, and in some cases went still farther than I myself could have hoped.
    It’s true that the essentials of mind control came principally from myself, and in this is I carefully refine that which renders a good result.

    All this has formed part of the Great Plan that has produced the masterpiece of mind control and domination that some students have ironically called “Masculine Dominance”. This concept is quite complex and involves many factors that perhaps I will speak of in another moment.
    For now we could reduce it to these three principle objectives:
    1) The invention of a fantastic world in which I made you live for all these years.
    2) The sexual possession of hundreds of young male students.
    3) The imposition of innumerable exercises that needed to be followed without exception.

    This time I want to speak particularly of this last point and of how these exercises work upon your psychology – you who have practiced them for many years. Exercises always serve more than one purpose, and their main purpose is to serve me. Through them I protected myself, I satisfied my most uncontrolled desires, strengthened the cohesion of the group, transmitted my subliminal messages over the five continents, and kept everyone’s attention directed towards myself.

    The first and most important exercise of all – and in this I consider myself a pioneer – is the Non-Expression of Negative Emotions.
    My predecessors investigated and wrote about this theme but nobody before me imposed their total non-expression. A bold move…
    This exercise is fundamental for controlling behavior. Since I’ve lived all my life in the outer limits of what people think is legal or moral, all animosity or criticism should be suppressed before it manifests. The main benefit is obviously my own protection. Non-expression of negativity towards me, my extravagant or immoral behavior, my desires and my orders.
    With this exercise, it’s as though we were fighting a duel, you and I, wherein before the action starts I have disarmed you — but not myself.
    The second helpful aspect of this task is to maintain the group’s integrity by the internal repression of any emotions that may tend to disperse the community. I’ve used the expression “transform negativity” but I don’t believe anybody knows exactly what this means and I must confess, me neither. Non-expression of negativity was very successfully combined with “not gossiping”, which given my lifestyle, is indispensable.
    Unfortunately this practice has become a type of internal poison for many individuals that we know here in Iz.
    Many members succumb to depression. Others suffer from chronic fatigue, hysteria, or insomnia. Some have contracted serious disorders of the nervous system, multiple sclerosis, cystic fibrosis, and many have cancer and have died from it.
    Anyways, we can consider that all of this is within the necessary cost of any important business and it seems to me that it can be considered irrelevant.

    Second in importance was “The Sex Exercise” which lasted more than twenty years and which I rescinded in 1998 to compensate for the failure of the prediction of the fall of California into the Pacific. This exercise had more than one aim but its principal function was to maintain the sex energy of the young male students (that would be pent up inside them) to facilitate my seducing them. Depriving them of their sex life outside of marriage made them more vulnerable and desiring to alleviate themselves at almost any cost. I was able to relieve hundreds of them, who after having worked for me till exhaustion all day long, found themselves tired and with a very weakened will.
    The most precious moments of my life have occurred when I found myself facing a shocked child, trembling, full of sex energy, whom I had convinced was standing in front on an angel in human form and who didn’t understand exactly what was happening.
    Little by little, or perhaps suddenly, I would undermine him. Fear – combined with his nascent desire – or fear together with his moral convictions, are the source of my maximum pleasure. And a tyranny in my life…
    Energy liberated by fear is a fine consumable for beings like myself, who are not satisfied by the normal, and who seek the total submission of all others. It’s also the reason why the majority of my victims are passive, timid, usually small in stature, and don’t have a personal direction in their lives; they are easy to persuade and generally don’t speak about what happened to them.

    From this point of view I can say that the whole organization of the School has been conceived like a great spider’s web, spanning the whole world, who’s center is the Galeria and where I, the Golden Widow dressed in pink silk, find myself always waiting for fresh meat. I don’t believe there’s a man who has occupied an important role whom I haven’t sexually possessed. Of course I can’t say the same about the women working in key roles, but many of them are single, and they sublimate their loneliness for my sake.
    The second objective of this exercise was to reduce the promiscuity of the era of “free love”, helping avoid conflicts within the group, and to avoid the spreading of venereal diseases that may have affected me personally. I imposed stringent fines upon those that disobeyed and I leveraged the associated feelings of guilt that are so strong in our Christian society.

    I have used many and diverse exercises of lesser importance over the years, designed to keep group attention focused upon myself, and the organization; all gave good results.
    For example, the “name change” exercise that I used more than 25 years ago, and which I’ve used to a lesser extent more recently, is excellent for partially appropriating the identity of a student, and make him “belong” to the organization, and myself. The same can be said of the exercises around dress – it produces a feeling of group identity that serves my aims well.
    The “word exercise” was very appropriate for maintaining the cohesion of the group because it allowed students to “photograph” one another constantly in daily life, making them active participants in my game. The same can be said about the exercises around food and eating.

    One of the most extraordinary methods of group unification was the idea to observe the appearance of the number 44. In those times, almost nobody knew about the reality of synchronicity or about quantum physics, which demonstrate that our attention attracts what it seeks.

    Recently, when different languages multiplied substantially in Iz, it seemed right that I should impose English as the only mode of communication for several reasons: it was quite disagreeable to hear around me almost all unknown languages, which weakened my power over others. I also found it necessary that my acolytes of the inner circle could listen to and understand conversations in public places during the time I started the “new form”, which already attracted so much opposition. I learned of many subversive conversations in this way. Little by little however, the exercise was not respected and I was forced to rescind it before I started to look ridiculous.

    These days, with so many upset students who have left – or are about the leave – the School, I am finding a strong weakness in the exercise of “Not relating to Ex-Students” which I imposed from the start. This exercise limited the influence of those that had freed themselves over those still under my power. I had better find a quick solution to this disquieting problem.

    Recently a naïve and adorable student asked me if my way with others was a product of the fear I instilled or the love I inspired. I answered that the ideal is to have both fear and love.
    If it is not possible to have both, it is preferable and more reliable to be feared than loved. Human beings love in an unstable way, in accord with subjective circumstances. Fear can be objectively controlled at the whim of the dominator.
    Most important is to avoid being hated…whenever possible. Those that truly know human nature know that everything can change in this world and all is susceptible to rise and fall. A man like myself, who in diverse ways has taken great risks, and whom fortune has favored for a long time, must take measures to prevent the fall, and not wait for it to happen suddenly.
    Prosperity, if we can refer to it as a state, is nothing more than a passing state, and fortune – which appears to be of a feminine character since it has the inconstancy of that sex, can change at any time, and can let her chosen ones fall into sufferings in proportion to her favors. Therefore I think it more certain, when the moment indicates, to break with fortune suddenly, rather than being struck unexpectedly and precipitately from behind.
    The moment we find ourselves at the top of our career is the moment when fortune can take away everything, and before the storm comes, one needs to hurry to the nearest and most secure harbor.

    “I am what I am and sometimes worse”
    Love, The Wizard of Iz


  362. Post #360/ Traveler

    They wouldn’t be arguing if they collaborated on a rap song, some-where real laughter shows all of us ‘where’ we are in relation to ‘serious matters’ that slow us down and get us into the Rodin Thinker Position…

    I admire Rodin’s bravery far more than his sculptures, although ‘kiss’ and ‘eve’ are beautiful children of his, among others.

    At the end of it all, relatively speaking, all these words will
    disappear, sand through our hands, the intent will remain though, that’s a portion of our being, yes?

    Sometimes we have to take off our steel plated shoes and allow the razor’s edge to cut us, so we can then move on from showing people how good we are at walking on it.

    __________________________________

    Love to you all.


  363. Hey Yesri baba,

    Yeah boy!

    Now there’s scale and relativity…LOL ~ !

    You found Post #351, amazing isn’t it,
    slight of hand often belongs to a ‘third arm’.

    :)


  364. Traveller (360): “It is necessary to make lots and lots of efforts and practice hard to personally awaken, before you realize that it isn’t going to get you anywhere, except that it did get you to the point that you realized it.”

    Maybe, also maybe not. If that’s your experience, of course that’s great. But I question whether the “lots and lots of efforts” are a necessary part of the process.

    In any case, isn’t the main point what’s happening now rather than how we got here?

    x RN

    PS did you find any more Devil’s Dictionary definitions? How about –
    Friend: superficial emotional connection entirely dependant on continued belief in FoF precepts?


  365. Unoanimo (362)

    Gosh, how wise you are!

    x RN


  366. on June 18, 2007 at 1:24 am Spencer St Clair

    To FormerFOFer Post #356
    Ah, here we are in the midst of one of life’s big paradoxes. For some people, immense efforts are necessary in order to awaken.. Really, the efforts are needed until one finally gets it that no amount of efforts will every bring awakening. That was the example I was using. Someone once asked Adyashanti (the person I was talking about in my example) if all those efforts were necessary, and he replied that all he can say is that they happened.. and then kept happening until he finally realized that he was totally incapable of doing it.. of awakening… So, were they necessary? Who can say? Perhaps the best answer is “yes and no”. I do know others who had no spiritual background at all, and they suddenly awakened with no efforts at all… The point is that it is not the efforts that bring awakening, but the surrender, the final giving up of all control. Practices can be very useful, but as tools to get beyond them. I would say this about practices. If one believes that they are absolutely necessary for awakening, then they are most likely a hindrance. There is still some belief that as soon as I get pure enough, THEN I will awaken. Nobody is EVER pure enough.. nobody is EVER totally deserving of awakening. It is by Grace that one awakens. I say this, and there are many efforts that I do make. I watch a lot of videos and listen to a lot of CDs from my teachers..not to learn anything, but because their words often humble me, demonstrate just how attached I still am to my thoughts. Also, I spend as much time as possible around others with a strong fire burning… the old 3rd force angle. That is helpful for me… but I don’t think that these things will be the reasons for my awakening. I used to, but those beliefs are pretty much gone. I hope this has been helpful to you and also to others who face this same paradox in their own lives. There is no answer that is right for everyone. That is why it is important to find out for oneself what is true.


  367. on June 18, 2007 at 1:28 am Spencer St Clair

    Rhino Neal..re: lots of posts..
    I enjoy your posts… your sense of humor is wonderful, and I relate to many of your words. However, I don’t know why you use the name “rhino” Your hide doesn’t seem that hard. There is a softness that is apparent!!! When were you a member? I would love to talk to you more..
    Spencer
    enhance44@earthlink.net


  368. Response to Janna #275.

    The real numbers of students leaving was never told. Of course it can’t be told!!!! This is what I called ‘keeping things in low profile’, whilst students amazingly worked with what they call the ‘exercise of gossip’. I guess I kept repeating this, because I was really disgusted. No movements or freedom of the mind and the so-called students ‘working on themselves’ are helping Robert to imprison themselves.

    But, there are some students, and of course, ex-students who are real people who, with more joyful thinking, made up for that painful ignorance.


  369. Yesri baba 362
    c-influence had to hold back Gurdjieff’s, Ouspenski’s and Collin’s developement or they would have had to change all of California license plates to eight characters.

    ***********

    Which would have consequently altered the course of history.


  370. #359 Rhino Neal:

    “On the other hand, “prolonged, consistent efforts” do have their uses, such as enabling one go to the bathroom when constipated.”

    This reminds me of the sign I posted on our “teaching house” toilet: “it is a solo struggle.”

    I don’t think the others appreciated it.


  371. Hello Rhino Neal;

    ______________________________

    Love to you all


  372. to 393 whalerider
    “Let me ask you something, Scott, (and anyone else). Just for a moment, put aside your self doubt (or self loathing, if need be). If you could imagine you were ‘awake’ for longer periods of time, what would you do? How would you use your being other than you already are?”

    I have no answer for this.
    I cannot even process the question.
    Its like if you were not you who would you be?
    To me this is just imagination.
    I have lots of that and I have a good 10-15 common repetitive imaginations
    I go over and over and over and over.

    I have never successfully imagined what it is like to be more awake.
    If I imagine myself as more awake I would have to be more awake now.
    My life has not ever been what I imagined it to be.

    What would I wish for?
    More control of attention. I would like to be born in an intellectual part of a center? See that is not more conscious.

    I don’t feel I have experienced any unussually great suffering.
    Everydau millions suffer much greater.
    I am fortunate not only in surviving my experienes
    but of distilling something for myself out of the experience.
    One technique I use when experiencing self pity is to use this Sonnet

    Sonnets of William Shakespeare
    Sonnet 29

    XXIX.
    When, in disgrace with fortune and men’s eyes,
    I all alone beweep my outcast state
    And trouble deal heaven with my bootless cries
    And look upon myself and curse my fate,

    Wishing me like to one more rich in hope,
    Featured like him, like him with friends possess’d,
    Desiring this man’s art and that man’s scope,
    With what I most enjoy contented least;

    Yet in these thoughts myself almost despising,
    Haply I think on thee, and then my state,
    Like to the lark at break of day arising
    From sullen earth, sings hymns at heaven’s gate;

    For thy sweet love remember’d such wealth brings
    That then I scorn to change my state with kings


  373. Dear friends,
    The new Greater FOF website community is a total blast! So many smiling faces – yes we can post pictures.
    Looks like many old friends found each other, and you can interact person-to-person.
    I would love to send an invitation to contributors like JoelF, Sandra, and many others – but I don’t have your e-mail. You need to be invited to get in, you can’t just come in.
    If you like to be included in this new fun community site – please e-mail me, and I’ll send an invitation link.

    malaec@optonline.net


  374. a former student #373

    “If I imagine myself as more awake I would have to be more awake now.”

    Hmmm…imagine that.


  375. Dear Spencer St Clair # 368

    “…and he replied that all he can say is that they happened.. and then kept happening until he finally realized that he was totally incapable of doing it.. of awakening…”

    Your quote from Adyashanti

    I read this and just had to respond – I don’t know you but truly I can tell you the reason he gave up the effort to awaken is because “awakening ” is just an idea.

    I find it difficult to put this into words .. but here I go.

    What is it I yearn for?
    What is it, the pain so deep?
    The needing to come home
    Wanting the Love once more.
    “I never left” she says, warmly
    I was always here-
    You were always with me
    I was always near
    Never did we part
    never was there pain
    Always did I love you
    There was nothing else to gain
    No-one is there, no-one,
    Only being is your name
    being truly being
    Living through this mysterious game.

    There is no search there is only the Nameless and living it in you.

    I’m sorry if I sound pedantic – I truly just wanted to share this – I just couldn’t keep mouth shut!

    Stephen


  376. on June 18, 2007 at 5:23 am Spencer St Clair

    A Story that many of you might relate to.
    A FOF story of a deep awakening and then of a losing it…
    and years of suffering about it…
    “Why did it happen?”
    “What did it mean?”
    “Why can’t I change it?”
    Okay, now THERE are 3 good ways to suffer, and I practiced them all with great fervor…
    Okay, enough of this Prelude…
    I joined the FOF on Christmas Day of 1973, and by New Years 1975, I was living at Renaissance, sleeping on the floor of the Lincoln Lodge (as it was called then) I came to be the Maitre D’ in May of that year when the preceding one had a physical breakdown.. obviously Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.. from the insane amount of work that he did.. so that role fell on me, and at the same time, the initial grape vines were being planted.. this was a very important time for the FOF, as this was the birth of the vinyards.. lots of people camped out that month, working long hours to get the vines planted.. and my job included asking them to volunteer to be a server at lunch or dinner. I also had to coordinate with the linen people, the flower arrangers, the people who selected the poetry and music and with RB about the wine and guest list for that night.. and of course, I had to make sure all the dishes were washed.. and there were no dish washers.. often it was just Tim Campion and me washing all the dishes, eating a bowl of oatmeal at 3am.. also had to coordinate things with the kitchen.. that month, I averaged less than 2 hours sleep a night. People often were pretty negative to me as I approached them during the day.. sometimes I just wanted to say hi, but many times a day, I received a rather terse “No” before I said a word.. sometimes people just walked away when they saw me. Of course, they were tired, and volunteering meant that they had to wait till the 2nd or 3rd serving to eat.. But to me, if felt pretty abrasive…But over the month, something started to happen.. I started feeling less and less negative about their reactions, and about the amount of work that I had to do.. I started to feel happier and happier.. and this happiness was uncaused.. that is the most genuine kind.. happiness just because.. not because someone did something nice.. not because I got what I wanted.. but happiness for no reason at all! The one evening, I asked the chef what time dinner would be ready, and he exploded.. yelling at me.. I did not say a thing.. I felt in shock.. I just felt his words.. no response from me. I just felt the energy. I walked outside to the deck, all alone, and looked out over the baby vinyards… I felt all sorts of negative energy trying to respond.. It was time slowed down, and I almost physically saw these negative arrows being slung at me.. thoughts that wanted to judge him… thoughts that judged myself.. feelings of hopelessness as well.. yet, something seemed to deflect all these energetic arrows… there was something doing it.. it was obvious it was not me… Then there were the “daughters of Mara” who came as well.. thoughts like, “Hey, Spencer, you are really doing this well” or other thoughts like this.. and I saw that they were the same.. they were just fear in another disguise.. I saw that every thought was a diversion.. and I also saw that one cannot spend every moment of one’s life deflecting arrows.. that it was nice to happen now, but then I might drop my guard at some point.. and it was okay.. I was okey with anything happening.. so I went back inside, and the chef apologized.. and all was well…
    The next day, after lunch, I received a phone call from my mother, telling me that she had to have a hysterectomy the next week, and she wanted me to come home. I politely declined, telling her that I would come if there were any problems but that I was sure there would not be. I had never been so clear with her before.. just straight forward and honest.. I had always been dominated by her anger and by the guilt that she so masterfully applied to my whole family. Thsi conversation was clean..
    Then I walked outside, and there was a revolution going on in my brain..
    One voice said, “You SHOULD go be with your mother.”
    and another one said, “No, you SHOULD stay here!”
    And I knew immediately that it was the same voice, disguised as the “good student”
    The voices continued for hours, expressing all their viewpoints, and I felt both totally unable to stop them, but at the same time I didn’t really care, because they were just voices.. they weren’t real. It was obvious what they were, and I just didn’t bite.. didn’t believe them at all.
    What had happened was that there was an increase in awakeness (not third state, but a degree of awakening) that had happened that whole month, and then a big third state experience the night before, full of shakti (vital energy) and profoundly insightful… but the highest awakening was that whole afternoon of bearing those voices. I just accepted what is.. that is all that happened.. what was happening was totally okay.. It was obvious that I was not connected to those inner voices.. they were what I then called false personality.. now I just use the word, ego. Ego is actually Latin for “I”, so it is a good word.. ego is really everything that is self referencing, which is just about every thought that we experience.
    That night, I got to bed pretty early.. around 2am.. and I slept on the living room floor in a sleeping bag.. I had an amazing dream, in which I was totally awakened, and Robert just realized it. “I didn’t know you were even close,” he said in the dream. I replied, “Well, obviously, I was, because here I am.” Oh, I forgot to mention, that I was not seeing him in the dream. It was a mind-to-mind communication.. (Hey, if you’re going to have an awakened dream, might as well pull out all the stops… the more mystical the better!) Suddenly, I woke from the dream. In front of me on the floor was another student’s alarm clock, with big red letters that read 4:44, and I tried to take a breath and couldn’t… had to really struggle to get any air at all into my lunge.. I was rushed to the hospital, and was diagnosed with Bronchial Athsma… in other words, severe bronchitis.. caused by hay fever, alergic reation to grass polen, and the Lincoln Lodge was surrounded by rye grass, the worst one for me.. When I couldn’t breathe, I panicked, really.. and all I could think about was trying to stay alive.. I forgot who I was in a very short time.. I was back in separation… a short note that I had that experience again, in a slightly different form at an Adyashanti retreat last December.. amazing how the ego works to get us back in the land where it is king…
    I went to Carmel and stayed there for a month.. then finally returned to Renaissance. I still felt weak, and decided to move out of the Lincoln Lodge.. and got a tent and prepared a site.. during the preparing, I would work hard, then would come to a point near the point of being exhausted, and would get terrified.. then back off..
    For 25 years, whenever I got really involved in something, and would start to approach that point of tiredness, and would back off.. I used to follow the suggestion that to know one’s limits, one had to occasionally exceed one’s limits.. well, I stopped well short for years.
    I was actually depressed about this.. I never again approached that level of awakening.. I felt that I had it and that I lost it.. that I was doomed to never have it again..
    Isn’t the ego just the funniest thing? It likes to turn everything into a tragedy.. or something that I did wrong.. That’s one way it keeps control.. each of us has his/her own pattern of how this works.. Mainly , I chastised myself for not being able to have that same zeal towards awakening.
    I got really stuck in the new age stuff.. I had 70 rolfing sessions and over 150 rebirthing sessions.. always trying to fix something.. plus, of course, getting a good hit of shakti from body or emotional release work.. I used to believe, at the time I joined the FOF, that if I could have enough LSD experiences, in which I attained mystical states, that eventually I could get one to stick.. so that I would be forever in bliss… So there was the bliss side, and the self blame and depressed side… and everything pointed back to the awakening that I “let get away” Even though that really is not possible…
    I have come to understand what has happened over the past 5 years, since I met Gangaji and Adyashanti.. but it doesn’t matter who one’s teachers are.. just that one begins to really let go.. as a deepening has occured, the understanding of this experience has come.. I now see it as a wonderful experience.. not as something lost. It was a sneak preview
    If any of you are going through similar things, let me know. Perhaps I can be of assistance. I have no idea what has gone on in the past few years, but I know that in the first at least 15 or 20 years of the FOF, nobody else awakened, at least according to RB… Has anyone supposedly awakened in the past 10 years or so? I find it odd that awakening can be the prize dangled in front of one for so many years, and yet nobody is awakening..Gee, why would someone want to stay with such a bad track record?
    Let me know what you think.. easier to write me at the Greater Fellowship site.. don’t have that URL right now.. others will undoubtedly leave it on this blog..
    Spencer


  377. on June 18, 2007 at 5:33 am Simple truth

    GRADUATES, UNANONIMOS, FORMER STUDENT, THE WIZARD OF IZ, SPENCER ST CLAIR, LAURA, NO PERSON, ROOM MATE, WHALE RIDER. OLD FISH IN SEA

    Your intellectual center is in a huge elimination process without any resistance. (as we can see it in your writings)
    You could try to keep your mind focusing on how to be present, and let the world of words behind you.
    at least step by step we must resist to our most mechanical process like intellectual excretion (imagination);

    In the state of presence the words are not necesary.


  378. Simple truth 377

    In the state of presence the words are not necesary.

    *************

    And yet here you are…trying to explain how superior you are in your unremitting soliloquy of silence.


  379. on June 18, 2007 at 5:46 am Spencer St Clair

    Hmmm… the post by a former student was most interesting.. when the question was posed, “If you could imagine you were ‘awake’ for longer periods of time, what would you do? How would you use your being other than you already are?” That is a fun one to ponder, and maybe even more fun to read the responses on this blog.. of course, we cannot know what we would do or what thoughts would even arise… and the main thing is that we wouldn’t be believing the thoughts at all… It is believing thoughts that ends an awakening experience.. even believing the thought, “I am awakening” will crash the boat on the nearest rocks. but, let’s venture further and imagine that we are totally awake.. not awake for longer periods of time, but really awake… what then? The problem we keep having is that we take experiences of awakening to be more than they are. Every experience has a beginning and must have an ending. Once we know that, we are on the right trail.. I know that many of us used to believe that awakening was a constant third state experience.. one that never ends.. nope.. can’t be.. that would be limiting awakening.. awakening takes in everything.. it does not exclude the ego.. the ego is still there.. always will be.. but it is not believed.. not followed.. When one is really established in awakening, one is following impulses.. there is an inner knowing… it is then clear that there is no “I” making decisions.. one is just following a flow of consciousness… This is something I only kind of know.. There is an increasing amount of this happening here, but one foot is still in ego land… Well, one foot and my butt, as my butt doesn’t like to be dragged to new places… I know a lot of people who are awake… many of them completed with the process, and some in some stage of awakening.. What I would do or what any of us would do if this awakening was total is a mystery, and will always be a mystery. Life moves us… this is happening anyway, but we refuse to let go of control, so we don’t recognize it.. but the thing is we don’t have control anyway.. never did..
    I will end with something my teacher said once…
    “We are looking for the proverbial “needle” of enlightenment in a massive haystack…
    What we fail to realize is that awakening is not the needle. It’s the haystack”
    He also said, “We are at the door to Awakening, and we keep pounding on the door, trying to get in..
    but we don’t realize that we’re already on the inside,
    and all we succeed at doing is letting ourselves out.”
    Enjoy yourselves


  380. Simple Truth–wish it was that simple!

    This blog is about reaching out from our heart what we feel is important, it may not be for everyone, or at all times, so what?

    Seems I may be the only current member on your list of ELIMINATORS but I can tell you, even for people who find the FOF useful, this blog serves its function, at least it does for me.

    I appreciate all who participate and I feel a lot of thought, emotion in many postings–sure some elimination too, not a bad thing!

    Thanks for being.

    Roommate


  381. Simple truth, wish it was this simple….


  382. #365 Unoanimo

    Yes. It is a theory in physics called Occums toe-nail clippers. The most bizarre and retarded explanation is probably correct!


  383. “First, one is a hunter in search of his quarry. Then the hunter becomes the hunted. Finally there is only love.”
    Robert Daniel Ennis


  384. 376

    Hey Spencer.
    It’s amazing having you recount that period. I now remember it vividly. Thank you. While I was occasionally one of the people who would say no before you asked, or just turn around and walk away,it never ceased to amaze me, or anyone else for that matter, how you just continued with your job with a smile and a soft voice. It was un-freaking-believable.

    Wasn’t the story from RB that you damaged your accumulator from working at the pace that you were? Or was that Anthony Schelfo, or both of you. I know you were the one with the smile.
    It’s nice to hear from you.

    B


  385. To Simple Truth 377:
    “we must resist to our most mechanical process like intellectual excretion (imagination)
    In the state of presence the words are not necesary.”

    That’s cool. Words are not necessary. So keep quiet then, and enjoy your “state”, your struggles and efforts in grave silence… May be this constipated resistance to life is called “presence” in your book…

    I’d rather talk, laugh, have fun and do whatever the day brings.

    What a twisted, distorted idea – keep quiet to be present… Where do you get this? Why do you think it is valid?


  386. simple truth #377

    “we must resist to our most mechanical process like intellectual excretion..”

    Don’t you ever take a shit? Where’s Exlax when you need him?

    unoanimo #352

    Thank you for your post. I ask only for your clarity in your responses to me. As Joseph G. said, we are cut from the same cloth. We have different communication styles.

    Cyclops #348

    Catching a monkey is no big deal. The trick is to enjoy shocking the monkey more than spanking it…

    Wizard of Iz #363

    Brilliant work! I delighted in reading it! Your post should be required reading at perspective student meetings!

    former student #373

    How much time did we spend imagining Robert was awake?

    Spencer St Clair #349

    “The mind is insane! It believes things that aren’t true. It imagines futures that never will exist. It remembers pasts that often times never really happened that way. It thinks that everything it thinks is true, even when time & time& time again, it is proven not true. It still marches forward, contrary to all evidence. By what other standard would you judge something insane?”

    Life calls what you are talking about the irrational ‘subconscious mind’ or a.k.a. in work language the ‘lower self’. Once the subconscious mind accepts a belief, it tends to be self-confirming and will deny all evidence to the contrary as you state. This is well known. Its ‘insanity’ is congruent with its need to survive at all costs. We will adapt our beliefs, attitudes and behaviors in order to succeed in life, even if it means lying. People will lie about anything in order to survive. Your higher intellectual center functions at a different level and is activated when you have an aim. Your higher centers can teach your sub-conscious mind or lower self to overcome its unhealthy programming from your past. Erroneous beliefs can be challenged and changed. It happens every day. It takes courage and prolonged work.

    “About self-remembering…there is no such thing, not really. One needs to merely ask the question, “who is remembering oneself?” Then ask the question, “Can the self be remembered?” The self is absolutely infinite. It is All.”

    You may be talking about lack of self remembering in the fourth state, objective consciousness, which is the ultimate aim. In that state, there is no self to remember. Consciousness is All.

    IMO, the self and consciousness are two different things. Isn’t it consciousness that is infinite, once it has shed the self? Although, IMO the self can be remembered, in that you can have a sense of your higher centers operating over time during your life span in your fourth dimensional time-body. You can even be aware of your past, present and future all at once. I mean, you know you are going to die, right? That’s a perception from your higher intellect of your future. The intellectual center is the seat of your short term-memory, and cannot retain the entire content of your long-term memory. To perceive more of your long term memory, or the being of your fourth dimensional time-body, you need to be in an altered state. What kind of mindset do you want to be in when your body expires?

    Traveler, Spencer, FormerFofer, Rhino Neal:

    The argument…“awakening is only possible through prolonged and consistent efforts”/”no it isn’t”

    IMO, we have been duped into viewing ‘awakening’ in the context of the way of the monk. IMO, it is Robert’s self ascribed role as a teacher that he uses as a third force to keep him relatively dialed in and present. The way of the monk is based on strict obedience and is not the way of the householder. The way of the householder is to take place in life, not a sheltered compound away from public scrutiny.
    IMO awakening or having conscious being is not divorced from one’s role in life. It is my belief, (something that I cannot verify), that ordinary people in ordinary roles in life will not awaken. Where’s the need or the third force? There has to be some kind of larger aim involved as a third force other than one’s own self-aggrandizement. IMO, you know a conscious being by their work in life and the trail they leave behind. For Robert it was building an ark. But he is chasing windmills. He was fooled by his misinterpretation of synchronicity, magical thinking, and ideas of reference. He borrowed the idea of the ark. At the time the ‘school’ was being formed the cold war was in full swing. He exploited our fears of nuclear holocaust. He used to say during the early days that Russian submarines were patrolling the coast as we speak. IMO, you don’t have to become a teacher and lead a group to awaken, that’s the way of the monk. Monks have stay in the sheltered environment of a school permanently and work their way to the top. Your conscious role is then bestowed upon you, if you play your cards well.

    IMO, you join a fourth way school and work hard to learn what you need to create a conscious role for yourself, IN LIFE. Then you go out and use your will and being to create the circumstances for your self where it is more likely to happen. (That’s what RB did.) IMO, when you find your right livelihood, your conscious role, you are ‘in the flow’, and then at that point the work seems effortless and your energy is boundless! This is how I lead my life post-FOF.

    I decided 22 years ago that I was not going to hang around sucking dicks, giving up my will, waiting for someone to claim that I am awake. Nor do I think ‘crystallization’ comes as a lightening bolt. I believe it’s much more subtle than that.

    I have only my life and my work as my proof.


  387. on June 18, 2007 at 8:48 am Bass Ackwards

    Perhaps due to security issues, the posting of Bass Ackwards [#197] got posted retroactively. Thus, most of you seem to have missed it? The point of the original posting was to attract help, especially from current but also well-disposed-former-students in dissolving or rising above the “myths” of the Fellowship of Friends, in order to salvage a real School out of this chaos, if it is at all possible to do so? Anyway, to continue the discussion, I’ll try to take a look at the first “myth”, others are also welcome to poke needles in the bubble:

    We are the only School currently on the planet and the only ones gifted to know about Self-Remembering.

    In a system of Fourth Way knowledge where one is encouraged to verify all knowledge in order to make it one’s own, a statement like this cannot possibly be verified. In order to verify it, one would need to leave the School and search the world over, looking for another needle in the haystack, losing precious time and energy in the mean time. So, it must be taken on as an article of “faith” (from a source that has already proven itself to be incorrect on a number of occassions, oh well).

    But setting that aside, if it were indeed true, and one has verified that the School is a bona fide source of Self Remembering, then it would encourage one to stay and value it, becoming cautious to leave. Leaving could mean losing the golden thread of Self-Remembering itself, becoming lost once more in the 10,000 “I’s” that swirl internally and externally, with nothing left to support the effort to rise above them. This is a serious consideration that keeps most students I know in the School. It has nothing to do with Robert Burton, rather it has everything to do with valuing Self-Remembering/Presence and the School environment that supports it. In addition, there is also the perception that many of us have of Influence C circulating throughout our School. Thus the first part of the myth, that we are the only School currently on earth, may or may not be true, but if one has verified that it is a School and one has found it, why look elsewhere? However, it is the second part of the myth, that we are the only ones to know about Self Remembering is rapidly proving itself to be the greatest of illusions.

    Recently, as primarily older students have become dissatisfied by the lack of depth in the current teaching, many have been surprised to discover the profundity of esoteric understanding existing out there in “sleeping life people”. The Fourth Way as a spiritual trend from the 70’s and 80’s has been replaced by new currents of Zen and non-duality. Though it seems true that these other teachings do not represent an organized School effort, it doesn’t take much examination to verify that there is deep knowledge about Self-Remembering currently circulating in life. And as the Teacher himself seems to be treading new paths of esoteric wiseacreing, the choice between his brand of nonsense and someone else’s “B Influence” becomes a choice about awakening from the myth or staying with one’s picture of the School.

    Obviously there is a third choice, that of staying and disbelieving the myth. Increasingly and thankfully, there are more and more students in this boat. Many of them participate in this blog for lack of a viable outlet within the School. Yet perhaps from this core of Presence-loving, School-loving, Conscious-Influence loving disbelievers we can salvage a real School? In a time period of our Teacher testifying that “All Schools are the same School”, can we not use our own understanding gained from studying our Selves, the Foruth Way, and other Conscious Masters to plunge more deeply into the experience of Presence itself? Isn’t that what we came here for? Can we not claim it as our own? Can we not help each other to do so? Is it not even possible that that is precisely what Influence C has in mind with the current confluence of shocks? Who else could possibly orchestrate the Keys, the Sequence, the Prehistorics, the Blog, Adyashanti, Advaita, the current exodus and who knows what else? Do we restrict our selves to reading Conscious Influence only in liscence plates or mosaics? Isn’t it more powerful and personally meaningful to read their workings in the discomfort of this turbulent time?

    Another spiritually stultifying aspect of the Fellowship isolationist myth is what it does to a student in terms of daily experience. Truly understanding Rumi, Whitman or another Conscious Being means understanding the realized Self is unified with All and Everything. Divisions of “us” and “them” show themselves to be the limiting factors that they are. The inner path of separation, the Sequence, the Work “I’s”, even the School, should and must lead us to the experience itself of unity with life – and beyond it. A unity that includes all those sleeping life peole we have been judging all these years, those former students who left the School from disgust at the Teacher’s behaviour, the car that passes by, the woman on the bicycle, the tree in the yard, all this large and small is Me, is You. Understanding is so very important.

    Love,
    Bass


  388. on June 18, 2007 at 8:53 am normal human beeng

    OK folks, let us to do some math here:

    250 people X 10 years X 12 monts x lets say $600 p/months = 18 000 000
    18 mln dollars….
    Am I correct?

    S__t, I want my money back!


  389. To 377 simple truth
    You write of elimination as if it is a negative. This simple illustrates both a typical Fellowship Of Friends attitude of Intellectual superiority and ignorance. Please take the time to refer to page 203 of “The Theory of celestial Influence”
    There is a diagram showing how the two processes of refinement and elimination operate together. Rodney Collins states

    “What is interesting here, however, is to see how the two processes of digestion and elimination are indissolubly locked at every stage, and that the same active element acts in both, but in a different role”

    So you are actually complemanting those of us on the blog you refered to as to have an abundance of intellectual excrement indicates that a corresponding active process of refinement or digestion is occuring in the intellectual center. probably something you no longer recognize.

    To Spence in relation to this

    “I would like to correct what appears to be a misperception of something I said. I mentioned that if one is daydreaming, that there is something noticing it. You mentioned that this is a degree of self-remembering. It appears to me that you may have thought that I was speaking of coming out of the daydream, of “remembering” to be more awake, and I am not talking about that at all.. even without coming out of daydreaming, anger, envy, whatever, there is STILL a awareness of it…One can see that even in retrospect..there is ALWAYS something aware of every moment in our lives, even if there is not conscious awareness at all. Does this make sense to you? I was shocked to start seeing this.. ”

    I meant exactly what I said.
    I meant it in exactly the way I said it.
    The 4th way teaches there is something called self remembering. It has degree’s.
    What ever you think it was is part of it,
    what ever you believe or imagine The Fellowship of friends teaches is part of it.
    I,m saying that your “new” discovery” is self remembering. If you feel the need for new words I can’t argue. My intent is inclusion not exclusion acceptance not rejection,
    But I stand on my understanding.

    What ever way you find to describe a spiritual state is fine to me it is self remembering , what ever you call it it is the same. “A Rose by any other name will smell as sweet”. Many former members reject the system,the language and theories and seek for other forms and find that contrary to Robert’s lies there are other legitimate approaches, that growth does not end when one “Loses the school” and that none of ones efforts are ever wasted.

    I love Shakespeares Sonnets and find one consistant theme in them. Self remembering. Even the Fellowship of Friends website introduces many different words for the state. You say you don’t want to get hung up on words but it is all there is. At least for now I’ll try a wordless letter and see how that works.


  390. Dear Bass acwards
    I took the time to go back and read your earlier post. Together they are a very clearly presented , well articulated and I believe a factual presentation.

    I do believe that we are in a critical phase in “The School” We are in a Si-Do interval something ends something begins. Will Robert die? The future is contained in what occurs now. Just as our bodies unravel from strands of DNA.

    Study the Enneagram.The seventh note goes back and informs the third what is hidden is revealed.

    Robert’s Homosexuality-the reason for the sex exercise, the hidden reason for incorporating as a religion, the Canons. The distortion of “payment is a principal” into give ,give ,give, The reality is you get what you pay for. Consciousness is up for grabs. Who wants their share? I’ll take the left overs.

    What do we have now that has been missing, Honesty? Acceptance? Sharing real thoughts, feelings and experiences, accepting other points of veiw, reaching out to a greater Fellowship of Friends” accepting the idea of a real 4th way. Not a 2nd way substitute but a way of individual understanding, individual conscience.

    The walls are crumbling like a leak in a Dam it is now inevitable that change will occur. What can we do. Treat each other as individuals and respect our individual truths.
    The reality of the school is that the soul of the school is all of the greater Fellowship of Friends some inspite of not because of Robert. Blessed be the memories of all those who passed, all those who gave of their youth and lives to build the school.

    If anyone is interested in checking out a school of the 4th way with three lines of work go to a 12 step meeting. The language is different, the theory and intellectual arrogance is missing, but it is a way of spiritual development in life. It catches people at a descending si-do interval right when change is possible and it works. I have seen miracles so I know the Miracoulus is as near as we chose.


  391. on June 18, 2007 at 11:45 am Bass Ackwards

    Dear Former Student [#387],

    Thanks for the heartfelt support.
    Yes, I have experienced a 12 step meeting more than a few times. It is a real “life” experience of what I understand the triad of healing to be. The hydrogens, the emotions can be beautiful, the sharing and the suffering intense. I almost left the School a number of years ago because I found it (12 steps) to be a possible replacement for it (the School) when I could no longer understand Robert’s behaviour. Luckily, the play changed and I have been able to continue here and keep on trusting that we may eventually have a real School, not because of but rather in spite of RB.
    Anyway, let’s see what else emerges here?

    Bass….


  392. Great post Wizard of Iz!!! Thank you, you should write a book and perhaps RB’s biography!

    Elena,
    Nice to have you back. You write like a poet when you let yourself be like it.
    I am glad you are still near, I enjoyed your posts even when they were so truthful to hurt the people you unveiled.
    You have such strength dear Elena, I feel you could be a great advocate for people and a good friend .
    After the big job of leaving a “life”, a marriage and ending your work with Dorothy you are free and floating as a new life is waiting for you.

    I see the fof now descending and slowly dying as the students become less and less certain they are supporting a true school.
    Perhaps a true school is an utopia, it is something we search for but ultimately the real school is our own teacher deep in our heart.
    Perhaps this big disappointment with RB and the fof is a necessary step towards maturity when we finally realize the potential is within.
    Too bad so much crime and subsequent damage is the payment for this growth!

    I am so glad this blog exists, like or not, some students are reading it and not matter how much some of them are trying to rationalize this material with their fof intellectual formulas , eventually the buffers will fall.
    If they have a shred of a soul they will start feeling very uncomfortable where they are now and leave soon.


  393. on June 18, 2007 at 1:49 pm Ludger Kreilos

    Dear friends and sheik, today I received this mail with a link to Youtube, I think it speaks for itself, Robert Burton at his best!
    Watch out folks or as my friends would say the hair stands to mountains!!!

    Here is the link

    See this, robert burton explaining a license plate.
    totally insane!

    Greetings to all of You!

    P.S.: Feel free to contact me
    LKreilos@aol.com


  394. Thanks Bass Ackwards for 389 – very well thought out and written. For what it’s worth, my take on what you describe so well is that you are about half way through the transition towards leaving the FoF. It’s a process that takes time and involves in many cases a gradual dropping away of old beliefs. Some people seem to get stuck at various points, but often the process continues until pretty much all one’s intellectual assumptions (=”verifications”) have dropped away and one is left with nothing but reality, which is very simple and totally non-conceptual.

    “Leaving could mean losing the golden thread of Self-Remembering itself, becoming lost once more in the 10,000 “I’s” that swirl internally and externally, with nothing left to support the effort to rise above them.”

    Leaving for me did mean “losing the golden thread of Self-Remembering” but that was in fact a good thing. The “Self” that one “Remembers” is just another illusion. Also, you don’t need any support to rise above the “I”s, the real you is already above them, always.

    “Obviously there is a third choice, that of staying and disbelieving the myth….Is it not even possible that that is precisely what Influence C has in mind with the current confluence of shocks?”

    It’s helpful when the concept of Influence C, in the sense of some benificent force governing one’s spiritual evolution, drops away too. (I’m assuming you’ve already seen through the ridiculous fallacy that “they” only work with the FoF). There’s no need for this concept at all. Again, everything is much simpler than that.

    A couple of other points:
    It seems to me that remaining in the FoF is not just neutral but actually harmful because one is connected to and supporting a very corrupt organisation – it’s difficult to see this when you’re in, obvious when you’re out.
    Plus, all that you desire the FoF to be in a perfect world already exists outside.

    I wish you very good luck, RN


  395. A former student #374

    “What would I wish for?” (…if you were more awake?)

    I didn’t ask what you would wish for or what you wish could change about your past or your DNA. That’s wishful thinking. What would you do with your conscious being and will if you could imagine that you were awake more often than not? Don’t be afraid of your own magnificence! Know yourself. Maslow asks, “If not you then whom else? Someone has to awaken. Why not you?” Isn’t that what people in the FOF do, go around pretending to be more awake? They take on RB’s ‘act’ of consciousness. I know I did. But the big secret is that it only works for him. How else do children prepare for life, but by pretending first? Then they rebel, individuate and strike out on their own or suffer the consequences.

    It seems to me from what you described about yourself, from your early life experiences you have created inside yourself a monstrous addictive personality. Like life, it will consume you if you have no self respect. You have learned that the hard way. Why not transform that thought to use drugs, alcohol or whatever into a thought about being more awake (or create art) in that moment? That’s what I do. Your demon can become your angel…! What a concept? Go out and party it up, get addicted to something your machine really, really enjoys, and then repent and resist the machine! Hey, you’ve already done that! You are already well on the way. Who needs a school? You have the fourth way ideas and everything else you need already within you. If not, go have fun creating what you need. IMO, that’s what voluntary suffering and transformation of negative emotions is all about.

    Spencer St Clair #381

    “What I would do or what any of us would do if this awakening was total is a mystery, and will always be a mystery.”

    Are you sure about that? Why should this be a mystery? This ‘mystery’ could be an element of narcissism that keeps us stuck. Narcissism holds onto an unreachable goal in order to maintain the belief that one is internally bankrupt and worthless. That’s why they have to puff up their ego, inside is all air. Remember, the FOF is run by Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It is therefore designed to keep one feeling off balance and insecure about oneself, looking outside oneself for validation or to feel ‘special’ or ‘one of the chosen’.

    Whether or not you agree about the 44 conscious beings that were held up to us as examples (of which RB is not even on the same continent), these people were not lightweights. How could we even imagine that Walt Whitman was a conscious being if it wasn’t for the trail of words he left behind? Or Rumi? All they left were words! Or Ben Franklin or Geothe or Elizabeth 1? These people didn’t just sit around contemplating their navels. They walked the walk. Their roles in life were not arbitrary or mundane.

    C’mon, live a little! What would you do? What kind of role (other than a fourth way teacher, that is) do you think could make you personally more awake…what role could you realistically play that would demand the highest from you? That’s the question….to be or not to be. Imagine if everyone on this blog started acting in this way?

    I mean, what the fuck are you waiting for, roast pigeons to fly into your mouth?


  396. WhaleRider 397

    I mean, what the fuck are you waiting for, roast pigeons to fly into your mouth?

    *****************

    Are you sure about the wording on this proverb? Because I always thought it was roasted penguins, “Are you waiting for a roasted penguin to fly into your mouth?” That is how I always said it, because who eats pigeons?


  397. on June 18, 2007 at 5:13 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    I ate a pigeon once in Martinique, West Indies.


  398. on June 18, 2007 at 5:17 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    Afterthought: It was roasted.


  399. wake up little suzy wake up 399

    I ate a pigeon once in Martinique, West Indies.

    *********

    Did it taste anything like…chicken?


  400. Dear Current students at isis.
    Unlike post 396 Rhino Neal. There are many of us who have left the as i now refer to it pseudo-school and held onto our work. I am one of those who continues to use the work language as i feel it is a powerfull tool that we share and can “cut to the quick” with, thereby sharing very precise observations in an expedient manner. There are many Groups who work together, i have worked with some and they were closer to the spirit of mr G than mr b, as they worked with movements and Beelzebubs tales and no one who has not read that story or worked with movements can be said to have studied Gurdjieffs work. I haven’t bothered getting into a discussion with the said Rhino as it’s a waste of time he’s far too thick skinned and deeply identified with the concept of not being identified to begin to discuss it as his whole comfortable belief system which is a perfect buffer would have to collapse first. But as if to demonstrate the truth of this he’ll probably have to come after me now to re-affirm / convince himself mainly but also some trampy, wilfull potential souls with his boring mantra. ” You are already awake everything is perfect how could you ever forget yourself , your self allways remembers itself, you are already above the “i’s” etc”.
    I leave you with a Quote from the Dhammapada.
    “The fool is careless.
    But the master guards his watching.
    It is his most precious treasure.”
    P.s. Of course this doesnt apply to mr Rhino and the advayantists as they are all fully awakened masters allready.
    Now just listen to them retaliate. Wishing you the best Cyclops.


  401. on June 18, 2007 at 6:15 pm Spencer St Clair

    to Whalerider.
    Yes, it is a mystery. The greatest freedom of awakening is the release of “having to know” or of “thinking one does know”. What comes is very often a surprise. This is my experience. The deeper I go, the more that this mystery reveals itself to be just that.

    I followed the Fourth Way for many years, until I finally discovered that it is really about control.. about controlling one’s emotions, one’s thoughts, one’s states of consciousness. Dividing one’s attention not only does not bring awakening, but ultimately prevents it. Awakening is all about giving up control. But before that can happen, there must be the realization that there truly is no one to do it.
    Some will see this and think that the writer must be nuts, and others will just nod their heads. I realize that there is nothing that I can do to convince anyone of anything.. and if I did, so what? Just see for yourself.


  402. Cyclops (402)

    Actually I don’t disagree with you. Some of my best friends are Gurdjieffians. I was just describing my own experiences. Each to their own.

    Also, it seems clear that everything just happens anyway, so you follow Gurdjieff, I don’t, and so on. I don’t see it as a matter of “choice”, or particularly important.

    x RN


  403. 404 Rhini Neal .
    Respect! Cy.


  404. on June 18, 2007 at 6:24 pm Spencer St Clair

    Book suggestion:
    Suzanne Segal
    “Collision with the Infinite”

    This is a most interesting book about a young woman who spontaneously awoke while waiting for a bus in Paris. For 11 years, she did not have any idea what happened, and was diagnosed with all sorts of psychological maladies. She just knew that there truly was no Suzanne.. The book is a bit painful until the realization of what this all meant. It is a “one day read” and can be helpful in understanding what this is all about.


  405. on June 18, 2007 at 6:27 pm Was KathleenW

    I’ve been working with a spiritual approach that encourages learning to commune with, connect with, forms of consciousness in the cosmos that are inclusive of but not confined to human consciousness. It’s less about my consciousness, my evolution than it is about making a connection with a greater consciousness and evolution of which we are a part. Not apart – a part.

    When spiritual “efforts” include connection to and service to a greater whole, personal evolution can follow, naturally. That connection lets us participate more in the greater consciousness and can bring an aspect of service that’s missing in personal navel gazing.

    Some of what the Western esoteric traditions teach is re-establishing those connections. I include the Fourth Way in this, although sometimes it’s hard to see the thread.

    I believe that most of us, due to the way we are constructed, probably need maps and concepts – at least as a starting point. Traveling without a map without getting lost usually requires a basic understanding of the geography, so studying maps and taking geography lessons are an important part of arriving at places.

    The Eastern teachings that say that it’s just a matter of shifting perception seem accurate to me. Personally, however, I want to understand the purpose in being here in a state of perceived separation. What’s the point? My map of the moment says that being here is the creative consciousness of the divine having an experience of itself, so there is a point to experience/doing in order to find my way back to a more expanded awareness/being.

    I guess this is a long-winded way of saying that whatever works, works, but we don’t exist in the humano-centric vacuum that it sometimes seems that we do. Besides, playing the game can be fun.


  406. I think this comment got lost, but apologies if it appears twice. I just wanted to confirm Cyclop’s statement that for those who find Gurdjieff’s teaching to be the bee’s knees, the Gurdjieff groups outside are much preferable to the FoF, at least that’s what I’ve been told by ex-FoFers who continued as Gurdjieffians.


  407. Spencer St Clair #403

    To each his own. We all need a little mystery in our lives, that’s very true.

    The ‘ greatest freedom of awakening’ I am speaking about is giving up the illusion (or narcissism) that you don’t know or can never know. Otherwise, how would you ever know?

    IMO, it’s not question of control vs. no control, it’s a question of balance between the two. Consciousness requires flexibility and virtuosity. Too much control and you become so tightly anal that you shit spagetti. No control is about incontinence. Ever go surfing, dude?

    Sure, it is an element of our ‘false personality’ that wants to self remember and be noticed and validated for our efforts. You are right in that consciousness is the backdrop and has always been there all along. It’s a given; that’s what we forget when we forget ourselves and get hypnotized by life. As you say, we have to abandon the ‘self’ that wants to rememeber itself in order to enter the fourth state of consciousness, where one’s pure consciousness is at the mercy of the Absolute. That state ususally causes major problems in those whom are not prepared and is indeed a ‘collision with the infinite’.


  408. on June 18, 2007 at 7:07 pm Simple truth

    Yes, yes, Justify your sleep with words.

    What creates the stimolus for the work?
    Ouspensky R: your understanding of your actual state.
    but if you can not see the diference between the second state (where you live 16 hours at day imagining that you are awake) and the state of presence, well what you can do?
    have you verify your own state in the different situations of your dayli life.

    nothing has been distorted, is just Mr. Ouspensky teaching us.


  409. on June 18, 2007 at 7:10 pm Spencer St Clair

    to Kathleen W… #407
    Yes! That is so true.. whatever works is exactly what is right. Only one minor point.. the idea that awakening is really just a shift in perception is not an eastern idea. It is simply the experience of people who have awakened. So often the comment has been made, “It has always been RIGHT HERE. How could I have ever missed it?” Many times, awakening has been likened to a curtain (or veil) parting. So what is being seen is what has always been here. This is the shift in perception. I remember being in retreat a year ago with Gangaji, and talking with her about a wonderful opening. I said to her, “I understand that the door might close again, and that is okay with me.” She replied, “Spencer, there is no door.” That stopped me in my tracks.


  410. on June 18, 2007 at 7:22 pm Spencer St Clair

    Whalerider…
    Hmmm.. I think I just figured out who you are, dude… How’s island life? Is that correct?
    I agree with some and not with other parts.. whatever works. I understand your point about giving up control =incontinence, however do not agree. Because what you are talking about is not giving up control.. that is just going numb, which is all about control… a more passive-aggressive kind of control. Truly give up control, and see for yourself. or not… I am learning, although slowly, that we will each proceed exactly as we do… and trying to convince anyone of anything is just head-butting.


  411. on June 18, 2007 at 7:24 pm Spencer St Clair

    a wonderful and, for me, a humbling poem by Hafiz called, Tripping Over Joy

    What is the difference
    Between your experience of Existence
    And that of a saint?

    The saint knows
    That the spiritual path
    Is a sublime chess game wtih God

    And that the Beloved
    Has just made such a Fantastic Move
    That the saint is now continually
    Tripping over Joy
    And bursting out in Laughter
    and saying, “I Surrender!”

    Whereas, my dear,
    I am afraid you still think
    You have a thousand serious moves.


  412. Strangely enough I was at a satsang with Puppetji and something similar occured he went on to say ” actually there is no frigging house.” Cy.


  413. Simple truth 379
    Thank you for the photograph. Unfortunately, as I read it, I felt a little negative vibe reverberate inside of me, as you seem to have the presumpion to deem it impossible for one to be present as one’s creative imagination runs free. One can be present while gardening, driving a car, watching tv, giving head, screaming, you know, one can be present to anything. It is possible to be present to one’s writing process as it proceeds from one part of the mind which seems to have its own natural flow. It is actually quite beautiful to see it unwind. Some days are better than others, and sometimes you hit a magical moment when you are actually able to communicate something very deep about yourself to he universe. But again, this cannot happen if there is no surrender to one’s deep intuition, all you get is an old overstructured brain repeating the same thing over and over. Personally, I find that boring. I’d rather open myself to whatever happens now. You seem quite good at surrendering your will to your leader, how about your poor inner teacher who hasn’t been able to put a word in edgewise for all these years. I suggest you try the experiment. Just sit there, make a space in your head. Let me know what happens.


  414. on June 18, 2007 at 7:33 pm You-me-us-they

    To 410, Simple truth, post 410.

    A fragment representing a front head, is on display on the Acheological museum of Isis. Room 6, named “Work”.

    The visitor is welcome to follow no guide till the next room. Empty, only light, named “Be”.

    The all museum is painted pink:
    La Vie en Rose! Quand tu me tiens dans tes bras, la, la la.
    La, la, la… Edith Piaf.

    Gratitude.


  415. Simple truth 379

    ~Start of quote~ : “GRADUATES, UNANONIMOS, FORMER STUDENT, THE WIZARD OF IZ, SPENCER ST CLAIR, LAURA, NO PERSON, ROOM MATE, WHALE RIDER. OLD FISH IN SEA
    Your intellectual center is in a huge elimination process without any resistance. (as we can see it in your writings)
    You could try to keep your mind focusing on how to be present, and let the world of words behind you.
    at least step by step we must resist to our most mechanical process like intellectual excretion (imagination);
    In the state of presence the words are not necessary.” ~end of quote~

    This post about intellection excretion trumpets your ignorance: a collocation of inanities.
    I imagine your own intellect/mind as this rarely-used, poorly- maintained instrument, roughly handled and now producing only discordances.
    I know – what you cannot know – that such statements make you a foolish figure here. —-Unfortunate to be condemned to experience life through such an imperfect instrument.

    Your ideas are based on assumptions that are not made explicit and are not proven, although you seem to believe them objectively true and presume the bog readership shares this conviction. Posts that argue FOF logic by using FOF logic are always circular and therefore uninteresting.

    From your post:
    “Intellectual center” – Do we (the readers) share the belief that such an entity exists?

    “Elimination process”
    Do we share a common belief in this concept?

    “be present”
    Do we accept as given that such a concept exists?

    “let the world of words behind you”
    Why? what does this mean? is this possible? what is the benefit?

    “we must resist to our most mechanical process”
    Because no supporting statements are given, this assertion is unjustified. You are parroting an idea here.

    “mechanical process”
    Is this an accepted concept? Also, Your reference is assumptively pejorative: if the concept can be proven to exist, do we agree with you that it is “a bad thing”?

    “intellectual excretion”
    What is this? Are we expected to know what you mean?

    “imagination”
    You have elaborated on the common meaning of this word in ways that may not be understood, nor shared.

    “In the state of presence the words are not necessary.”
    A pseudo-profundity: the assertion is based on a number of unproven minor assumptions

    Some blog content is characterized by the same circular and fallacious reasoning AKA “sloppy thinking” evidenced in your post. I am using your post to exemplify a point.

    My objective is not to limit content or criticize the blog. No way.
    I perceive the blog to be an organically-evolving, perfectly representative monument to a profound and archetypal human experience. I think it possible that great understanding of the functioning of the human psyche can be devined from this forum. [BTW—Bloggers that contrive ways to villify the blog reveal only their own biases & insecurities]).

    My ideas pertain only to those posts that constitute debate or argument (in the classical sense of those terms) NOT testimonies, anecdotes, etc, to which the ideal of intellectual rigor simply does not apply.

    Simple Truth, In case you were considering this, please don’t trot out the old FOF trump cards that attempt to denigrate the “intellectual center” and worship output of the “Emotional Center”, esp. the “Higher Parts”, whatever they are.

    More on that: the differentiation of the brain into “emotional” and “intellectual” parts by Gurdjieff was not intended as a literal division. This idea is an analytical tool; one with a limited applicability, which, in the FOF, was (like many) distorted and applied beyond its intended scope to enable the subversion of rational & critical thought.
    In fact, many of the Fourth Way constructs (COGravity, Types, Ray of Creation, Side Octave from the Sun, True/False personality, sleep/attention, mechanical,non-mechanical) ceased to be – or were never understood to be – analytical tools/conceptual devices/pointers developed to enhance understanding – not literally true.

    However, literal thinkers and security-seekers that so many of us were/are, once armed with the Names, we looked literally for such phenonenon, and – once merit was associated with the perceiving – of course, marvelously!, we all inevitably “verified” their reality. We reinterpreted our world to conform to the conceptual framework of the system & RB.


  416. Simple Truth

    You are a sad parody of an evolving person. You represent all the “evil” (hazards) that can befall a non-discriminating “follower” (sheep). You are the fool of the farce. You trudge, head-on, without any awareness, other than the “tapes” that constantly replay in your sad organism. You are the perfect “student”.

    And yet, I still don’t believe you are legit.


  417. on June 18, 2007 at 8:14 pm Giraffe Haven

    #407 Was Kathleen W,

    Hi Kathleen and thanks for your post.
    Some thoughts from a different perspective are;

    “we are a part. Not apart – a part.”
    “You” are the whole, there are no parts.

    “I want to understand the purpose in being here in a state of perceived separation. What’s the point?”

    There isn’t a point! And no Kathleen to find the purpose. The “problem” so to speak is Kathleen. What you are is fulfilled, has no desires and no mission. There’s nothing to resolve or complete, no end point or destination to reach, no salvation, no redemption, no damnation.

    “so there is a point to experience/doing in order to find my way back to a more expanded awareness/being.”

    You are the whole, always were, there was never bondage so no need for freedom. “You” never left what you are. Who wishes to return and to where?

    Whatever works.
    Love,
    Giraffe


  418. Bruce 418

    You trudge, head-on…

    *************

    Head-On, as in “apply directly to the forehead?”


  419. Reference: Archive, Part 7 #352

    Would you please email me: mrharve at tularosa dot net

    I am looking for a way to verify the contents of your blog. A writer acquaintance is writing a book and would like to include this information, but not without verification.

    Shiek,
    1. Thanks for the forum
    2. Is it possible for you to forward this email to the address of Archive in case he/she is no longer active

    Thanks,
    Mrharve


  420. on June 18, 2007 at 8:22 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    #401 Graduates. No, unfortunately it looked and tasted just like a pigeon.


  421. Hey ‘Simple Truth’

    Come’on now, just say it, “I wanna rap my heart out of Ole Oregon House, down town, any town, so long as I can be a real conscious clown.” (Like the ‘Joker Card’, if you know what I mean.(?))

    You know ya wanna.

    ___________________________

    Hello Spencer St Clair ~

    You wrote ~

    “We are at the door to Awakening, and we keep pounding on the door, trying to get in..
    but we don’t realize that we’re already on the inside,
    and all we succeed at doing is letting ourselves out.”

    __________________________

    Spencer, unless your previous teacher was Rumi, then you’ve got some plagiarism vibes on your back from Robert Burton or some other ‘undercover brother’: the quote you ‘quote’ prior to “… and we succeed at…” is all Rumi.

    Welcome to the blog, I embrace you.

    ___________________________

    Hey Whalerider,

    Good to see you’re up and splashing around, thank you;
    Spencer mentioned an island, hummm, are you the dude who pinned a daily card quoting something about the King of Clubs on a deer dear hanging up behind the Lincoln Lodge? Do you bake bread, I mean, really bake bread, professional like?

    If you’re who I think you are, then I might just have a cardiac arrest, so bring it on me smooth like and don’t go shocking me outright.
    ____________________________

    Love to you all.


  422. 419 Graduates

    Brings back that Monte Python skit with the monks walking lock-step, and every few steps they stop and whack themselves in the head with the good book.


  423. *************************************************
    License Plates Psychology
    *************************************************

    Of license plates you can make whatever you want to make.

    Prove whatever you want to prove.

    R3 ANGL 7

    can mean 3 are, G,O & C are incomplete man number 7

    but you can also say or ‘prove’.

    R3 ANGL 7

    robert is an man number 3 but from his angel things he is a number 7

    Is it possible that the ‘C’ in influence C as mentioned by RB in the movie stands for ‘crazy’?


  424. on June 18, 2007 at 9:06 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    How about turn right, go 3 miles, angle in space #7.


  425. ‘Simple Truth’

    There is something in what you say, and I really believe you know some thing from your own experience, and that is good.

    You are not a great writer but that’s all right, it is not your aim to communicate well.

    Enjoy your ‘presence’ and don’t bother so much about others.

    When the time is right you will also start thinking for yourself and you will value it because it will set you free.

    For now, keep thinks simple.


  426. wake up little suzy wake up 424

    “R3 ANGL7”

    How about turn right, go 3 miles, angle in space #7.

    **************

    Or: “Our Triangle Seven”

    Which is the Department of Defense code name for Area 51, according to Muldur.


  427. Laura Davis,
    on the last blog you posted your email.
    Did not take note of it. Would you post it again?
    Nice to hear your voice in the meantime: not playing with words, just to the point, honestly! : )


  428. The sublimation of the great , puritanical American work ethic.
    It seems unfortunate, to me, that Gurdjieff’s 4th way is called “the work”.
    I don’t think anyone who knows me very well would neccisarily (excuse me, but is that the most difficult word to spell in the english language?) necessarily see me as lazy. Of course, I am, to the degree most everyone is.
    It seems to me I have worked so hard in my life. I have never been fired from a job ( once I was let go from a winery bottling line because my wrist swelled up from repeated movement). I was usually a responsible employee, showing up on time, doing what was asked of me. It was never enough.
    I remember once in the fof after about 2 or 3 yrs. working in the vineyard 6 days a week, however many hrs. a day, sleeping on the floors, ( some of you know the drill) I came down with a cold or flu. I told GR I wasn’t going to work that day and he was all over me like a ceo on the bottom line. I remember thinking to myself this is crap, he’s just behaving like every other employer I have ever had.
    Later on, down the road, my drinking got the better of me and my “work ethic” wasn’t so great. Still I never got fired, just suffered a whole lot more and quit a lot of jobs. I mostly worked in construction/truck driving industries (not a good fit for me, there in lies the laziness).
    So my “Holy Resume'” has a lot of employers on it and some gaps in employment. This prompts prospective employers to ask “why so many jobs and what were these gaps in your employment history?” to which I respond “what the fuck’s it to ya” leading to longer gaps.
    I only relate all this to come to a certain point. I have probably missed some profound something or other, but I just don’t get it. I guess if one were to divide the people in the world into two very generalized groups, say “active” or “passive” types I would fit into the “passive” type category.
    This is what I don’t get. When did “Work” become god, and when did the sublimation of this “work ethic” become the task master of our view of ourselves.
    I don’t know if one needs to make tremendous efforts to “awaken” or if it has always been here free of charge but I think we need to take a close look at all the stuff swirling around the concepts of both “work” and “awaken”.
    I have been out of work for about 8 mos. and I find it kind of strange that there are times during the day when I “feel” I should be doing “something” and then usually after 5 or 6 o’clock when I am contented just to be.
    It is odd to watch young children playing with some silly little toy for hours and hours just having fun.
    Right livelihood seems like a wonderful idea. How the hell do you get there? I bet it takes a lot of work.
    Got to go. There is a lot of stuff i should be doing.


  429. 425 Peter,

    Why do I get the feeling you’re just another shill, like Simple Truth.


  430. The Wizard of Iz 363
    Ouch! Your gut-wrenching description of Our Dear Leader is so masterful that now I feel a bit sick. God, what a diabolical trap!
    Let’s toast to the idiots and to the genius of evil!
    Lucky that, as we say in Italy, “the devil makes the pots but not the lids”

    vera.mente 427
    laurao@fastwebnet.it
    i’m also in the community site.


  431. 391 a former student writes

    “To 377 simple truth
    You write of elimination as if it is a negative. This simple illustrates both a typical Fellowship Of Friends attitude of Intellectual superiority and ignorance. Please take the time to refer to page 203 of “The Theory of celestial Influence”
    There is a diagram showing how the two processes of refinement and elimination operate together. Rodney Collins states…”

    Maybe you should reread the title of this book again before talking about ‘intellectual superiority’, hmmmmm?


  432. #423 Peter:

    It is just Fellowship students, past and present, to grapple with the esoteric significance of a license plate rather than ask the owner what it means.


  433. Maybe this will make more sense:

    #423 Peter:

    It is just like Fellowship students, past and present, to grapple with the esoteric significance of a license plate rather than ask the owner what it means.


  434. Tim Campion 432

    #423 Peter:

    It is just Fellowship students, past and present, to grapple with the esoteric significance of a license plate rather than ask the owner what it means.

    *******************

    If they don’t pull off the freeway voluntarily when repeatedly honked at then follow them to their destination wherever it may lead or regardless the distance and enquire politely, this would be the rational course to take in the case of cryptic and or intriguing license plate omens. “Super efforts.”


  435. In #431 Exlax 101 comments on my response #391 to a post #377 by “Simple Truth”

    “Maybe you should reread the title of this book again before talking about ‘intellectual superiority’, hmmmmm?”

    Is that all you were able to extract from this exchange?
    Maybe you should get ready for next years spelling bee ?
    It is that to actuall discuss a personal verification of a universal law is beyond your scope?
    Something you consider less relevent than the spelling of a title?
    Is this a verification of Maurice Nicoll’s idea that these ideas can only exist in the intellectual parts of centers?

    I have little respect for anyone who hides out and snipes online it indicates a certain lack of self respec?

    I have experienced this kind of behavior in youths who are at a stage in their lives where they find rudeness and acting stupid unique and clever.

    As you may have noted this forum lacks a spell check.
    If I want to write a brief response unless I use a word processing program there is a good chance there will be errors .
    Often I do use a program with a spell checker but not always but not always.
    I felt I invested as much of my energy in that response as it was worth and more than it is really worth in this one.

    On the other hand if spelling is difficult for me then that could be considered a handicap. So it is interesting that you would chose to critize a handicap rather than comment on the actual subject matter of the exchange.


  436. you are all missing the point! what make of car was it? cy.


  437. Which reminds me of the license I saw in San Francisco one day:

    “DIFFRNT”

    The car following it had the license:

    “ARIA”


  438. Which reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw. “If you’re going to ride my ass the least you can do is pull my hair”.


  439. Behave yourself. I warned you.


  440. In post # 417 Glad2BGone writes

    “More on that: the differentiation of the brain into “emotional” and “intellectual” parts by Gurdjieff was not intended as a literal division. This idea is an analytical tool; one with a limited applicability, which, in the FOF, was (like many) distorted and applied beyond its intended scope to enable the subversion of rational & critical thought.
    In fact, many of the Fourth Way constructs (COGravity, Types, Ray of Creation, Side Octave from the Sun, True/False personality, sleep/attention, mechanical,non-mechanical) ceased to be – or were never understood to be – analytical tools/conceptual devices/pointers developed to enhance understanding – not literally true.”

    If you claimed this as your own truth I would not object.
    If you couched it as a reasonable arguement it would be acceptable but you state it as fact. This is also a Fallacy to accept as fact what you are argueing to prove.

    In debate there are “facts” accepted as given.
    A useful technique in winning a debate is to trick the opponent into accepting “facts” that make it impossible to argue their case.

    In this case I refuse to accept what you present .
    The logical development of your statement is that the entire structure of “The System” as discussed in the writings of Gurdjieff, Ouspensy, Collin and Nicoll is false.
    I challange this.

    “My ideas pertain only to those posts that constitute debate or argument (in the classical sense of those terms) NOT testimonies, anecdotes, etc, to which the ideal of intellectual rigor simply does not apply. ”

    The system as presented originally calls for personal verification and self observation. If self remembering and self observation are not real for you there is no value in the system other than as an intellectual construct and it would be futile to argue the value of something that does not exist for you.

    Rodney Collin discusses different forms of knowing in the introduction to
    “THE THEORY OF CELESTIAL INFLUENCE”.
    “In our attempt to reconcile the inner and outer world, however, we do come up against a very real difficulty, which must be faced. This difficulty is connected with the problem of reconciling different methods of knowing. Man has two ways of studying the universe. The first is by induction: he examines phenomena, classifies them, and attempts to infer laws and principles from them. This is the method generally used by science. The second is by deduction: having perceived or had revealed or discovered certain general laws and principles, he attempts to deduce the application of these laws in various specialised studies and in life. This is the method generally used by religion. The first method begins with ‘facts’ and attempts to reach ‘laws’. The second method begins with ‘laws’ and attempts to reach ‘facts’.”

    For example “Ocatves” and “The Enneagram” are real for me. You may say this is an intellectual contruction.
    That it is not meant to be objective information.
    I disagree.
    Your claim has little effect.
    It does not change my understanding of reality.
    Nor does it change reality it self.
    I play music and know some theory.
    If I say “that is a Cycle of 4ths progression”
    ( Am D Gm C F E7)or
    “can you hear the change to the relative minor”
    ( I-vim G-Em)? and you say there is no such thing.
    It does not alter that these things exist.

    I generally do not argue the value of the system.
    I have interalized it and rarely use the language in external communication.
    You however are challanging my right to think the way I chose and use what language I chose.
    If this is a reaction to the experience of the
    Fellowship of Friends then I did exactly the same.
    However I got over it and hope that you do too


  441. Unoanimo,

    Thank you for asking!
    Here it is…

    Talking with Angels: Budaliget 1943

    the true story of Gitta Mallasz adapted and performed by

    with love,
    shelley


  442. on June 19, 2007 at 12:57 am Howard Carter

    To: a former student – #326,

    “There are a few Fellowship of Friends apologists
    that still appear from time to time.
    They are not even interesting enough to use as target practice
    That is practice using logic and arguementitive techniques.
    Although one who post’s as Howard Carter is almost irisistable.
    He is as nimble as Gerards thinking.”

    Thanks for the “compliment”, intended or otherwise.
    By the way, the correct spelling is Girard.

    HC


  443. 437 a former student wrote:

    “On the other hand if spelling is difficult for me then that could be considered a handicap. So it is interesting that you would chose to critize a handicap rather than comment on the actual subject matter of the exchange.”

    Perhaps your intense over-reaction stems from low self-esteem, I don’t know, what’s up with your response!?!
    My comment had nothing to do with spelling (R U a Queen of sorts?).
    If you took my advice you might have learned something, but I guess you already know, you’ve read books…..

    “I have little respect for anyone who hides out and snipes online it indicates a certain lack of self respec?”
    Ditto in spades.


  444. Awww Tim. I’ll take a time out.


  445. Howard Carter 444

    Thanks for the “compliment”, intended or otherwise.
    By the way, the correct spelling is Girard.

    **********

    I wonder if you could answer a question without “intentional insincerity?” Has a Fellowship official (Burton, Haven, or whomever might be in charge of such concerns) instructed, or as is said there “asked,” you to post replies and comments to this ‘blog’? Are you an official emissary?

    Just trying to establish what your position is as a voice on the board.


  446. To 419 Giraffe Haven,

    Who ever you are you demeanor yourself by demeanoring others with the use of names.

    Neither one of us is in any way better than any other. Nor do we have more right than anybody else. My husband, Girard, has made as many mistakes as Robert and the rest of us, but they were not intentional, they did not mean harm to other people. This is really the deep human problem we are faced with: we were all sleep following even more sleep people.

    We have already much abused each other’s integrity by not being able to respect each other and instead idolize Robert (and a few, Girard) but continuing in a descending octave won’t take us anywhere. I beg you not to abuse my husband’s integrity with the use of names, no matter how much you dislike him. It would be of more use if you state what bothers you about him than just make fun of him with a name. At least he’d be able to use the photograph and not just feel ridiculed.

    My husband is still my husband no matter how separate we are. The only thing I’ve really learnt in all these years, is that we’re all a thousand light years away from the present and that that still doesn’t merit any abuse from any body else.

    I work with sick people not because they are sick but because they are. People who think they are healthy often have not even realized their impotence, false personality has not broken down and they still believe in a world of separations. Like you, separating yourself with the use of a name. Thinking you can stand aside and point at someone else. But please don’t be offended by my pointing it out to you. I’ve been there or I could not see it.

    To everybody else:

    I do question the degree to which we pretend to work on ourselves and still judge when we expose each other when it is the old feminine dominance that wants to keep things hidden with the excuse that they are personal. Nothing is personal any more. Our social life is the clear expression of our sexuality and we need to look with wide open eyes at our sexuality to really understand why we can’t relate to each other openly or have orgasms. In fact, we need to start talking about orgasms openly so that we know what we are talking about. So much freedom of sex and we can’t even say these words without

    The disconnectedness of sexuality, marriage, social life is what allowed us to support Robert without questioning. We did not understand the connections and complied with the femininine dominance that states every man for himself, and then ended up supporting only Robert for himself at the cost of the rest of us.

    Is it not sobering to realize how infantile we are as a community? It doesn’t seem much surprising if what people were really going for was their own awakening. It does sound like this is the aim for many still. While I am happy to respect those if they wish the fakir or yogui path, I do not think there is much room for that in the fourth way. Any Is?

    It would not surprise me to hear most of you saying that you’re not even interested in community but I would like to open the conversation to that subject, convinced that, no matter how successful one might consider one’s self as an individual, is it not clear to most that we are not going to get very far on our own? That in the way of life, the issue is not how high a state you’ve reached, it is how high a conscious community we’ve built?

    Is the Fellowship experience not of immense value to understand where the mistakes and failures were as much as the potential for improvements? And many aspects of it were mistakes in as much as people are condemning themselves to anhilate their functions and become perfect idolazing automatons (am I spangling?) but many of the excercises that made us not do something were great to know the value of doing that same thing.

    For example, the not laughing exercise. Was it not easy to perceive after that there is relativity to laughter? Relativity to movement? emotions? thought? sex?

    Enough for now, thank you for hearing.

    Be well,
    Elena


  447. So much freedom of sex and we can’t even say orgasm without fear.

    It looks like the word fear was to afraid to even get printed!


  448. on June 19, 2007 at 2:13 am wake up little suzy wake up

    Elena: Just a personal question. I went to Colombia in my twenties and spent time in a place called El Rodadero, in Santa Marta. Are you from there or anywhere near there?

    It was a very emotional time for me. Just wondered if you knew of the place.


  449. About the name “giraffe”

    Did you know that the giraffe is the land mamal that has the largest heart (25 pounds they say)?
    and that it can defend itself from, and even kill a bunch of lions? (Lions fear them)
    Also it can see the whole picture from above since they have a higher point of view.

    If someone changes my name for it, I would feel very honored by it.

    what do you think?


  450. That was a place for coast but still city tourism. Did you ever go to the Tairona Park? Walked the rock stairs of the ancient city? They were built in such a way that they would move one rock after another so that the guards would know at the end how many people were coming.

    My family is from Medellin, pronounced, Madaejean! A huge hole in the Andes Mountains. Green and lush and people like to hang deer stags? in the balconies. They are green plants that grow like dear horns? stags? and take a long time to grow even a little. The inner cities are very different to the coast ones, more cultues, but nature is beautiful everywhere.


  451. 431 Bruce

    Hallo Bruce,

    I’am Dutch, and do not know what ‘shill’ means?


  452. A short reminder:
    Do you want to be a part of the former members Contact List?
    Want to join a fun and friendly Greater Fellowship international online community?

    E-mail me with your info (whichever info you want to include).
    Most people include names, e-mail, years in FOF, also phones, addresses, websites. Submit whatever you’re comfortable with.
    I’ll put it in th List and send you an invitation to GFOF site.

    The Contact List will be mailed to all listed in it hopefully by July 1st.
    The Greater Fellowship community trippled in few days and keeps growing… It’ just too much fun. I can’t blieve we waited so long to have it – what were we thinking??? :)

    Janna Makaeva

    malaec@optonline.net


  453. Never mind Peter. I can see you were just giving him the benefit of the doubt.


  454. Elena 448

    Nothing is personal any more.

    *************

    Your intensity is unnerving. You hurl the radiation of a slow explosion out into what universe, to light the shadows of which lost world? Into what population of darkened survivors do you cast this withering glare?


  455. on June 19, 2007 at 5:08 am wake up little suzy wake up

    One more personal note Elena: I was staying with a family from Medellin who had a last name of Iragorri. Although I stayed in Santa Marta for a month each time (I went for three years) I never traveled much past arriving at the airport in Barranquilla and traveling by jeep across the Magdalena River by river boat to Santa Marta; it took 3 hours to arrive in Santa Marta from the airport all on dirt roads. Quite an adventure for me. This was in 1969. I’m sure it’s changed a lot since then.

    Did you know two Colombian students by the name of Eduardo and Ana Perez from the Miami Center? They were friends of mine. They left quite a while ago. I would love to find out how to reconnect with them. I lost track.


  456. Hello Peter:

    In reply to Post #425

    You wrote, quoting, the plate ~

    R3 ANGL 7

    It could also mean ~

    Red Socks 3
    Angels 7

    ____________________

    Word


  457. A little Sarah for music lovers.


  458. Suzy,

    Unfortunately I didn’t meet them so I don’t know where they are. Sounds like you got a taste of the lemon green vegetation of the coast having to go across all those dirt roads.

    Graduates,
    Wouldn’t you say that the idea of “personal” is that which people have the illusion that they can hide? But at the same time, the shame? If we don’t judge each other there’s nothing to be ashamed of. There are so many mistakes and the desire to make them less often, but shame? Exposing Robert or Girard is not about shame. Exposing our selves is about consciousness. It was the silence that kept us in the Fellowship for so long……paying and snoring.

    To those that have invited me to join the greater fellowship, thank you. Bridges for the burnt bridges.


  459. on June 19, 2007 at 6:51 am Howard Carter

    To: Graduates – 447,

    “I wonder if you could answer a question without “intentional insincerity?” Has a Fellowship official (Burton, Haven, or whomever might be in charge of such concerns) instructed, or as is said there “asked,” you to post replies and comments to this ‘blog’? Are you an official emissary?

    Just trying to establish what your position is as a voice on the
    board.”

    I first read your comment as ” I wonder if you could answer a question about “intention insincerity?” Lucky I caught that.

    No one in the FoF has asked me to post on or monitor the blog. Less than a handful of people know my identity and most of those would like me not to post.

    I have my personal reasons for posting, which are not really relevant to this answer.

    Some bloggers probably have an incorrect picture of the status of the blog to the FoF. Robert has not, to my knowledge, ever mentioned the blog in public. I’m sure he’s been advised of its existence. I personally doubt that he gets any kind of regular updates about it.

    To my knowledge there were two e-mails sent to students by a FoF council member right after a mass e-mail was sent to students to check out a “Forum for FoF students”. One or both of them may have mentioned some instances of identity theft among other issues.

    Then Girard sent an e-mail to students saying he personally had no interest in, or intention of, reading the blog and suggesting to others that they think about their aims with regard to the same. If anything else has been said publicly I am not aware of it.

    For the most part the blog is a non issue in the FoF. When I meet with friends it’s rarely mentioned and when it is the topic usually doesn’t take up that much space. But all I know are the circles I travel in. As far as I can tell the number of defections mentioned on the blog has been inflated.

    As of May 17th there were 2009 members, roughly the same as its been for the last 25 or so years except for two “dips” to about 1700 in 84 and 94.

    The total net reduction in the school for the 30 days prior to 5-17 was 25 or so. On that list were single digit departures from Isis. About a week before that list came out it was reported on the blog that around 300 had left from Isis alone.


  460. Elena 460

    Graduates,
    Wouldn’t you say that the idea of “personal” is that which people have the illusion that they can hide? But at the same time, the shame? If we don’t judge each other there’s nothing to be ashamed of.

    ****************

    I don’t accuse you of this, but merely remind: it is always possible to become all too transparent.


  461. #448 #451

    And of course,

    Haven |ˈhāvən| noun a place of safety or refuge : a haven for wildlife. • an inlet providing shelter for ships or boats; a harbor or small port. ORIGIN late Old English hæfen, from Old Norse hҩfn; related to Dutch haven, German Hafen ‘harbor.’

    Thesaurus
    haven noun 1 a safe haven refuge, retreat, shelter, sanctuary, asylum; port in a storm, oasis, sanctum. 2 they stopped in a small haven anchorage, harbor, harborage, port, moorage, mooring; cove, inlet, bay.
    ——————————-

    Queen Elena, you take things so personally, negatively, on your small selfish scale, and you talk so much that you forget even your ignorance.

    BOlg


  462. Hello Post #389/Bass Ackwards ~

    A quote for you ~

    It was near the end of my 18th day task to cross the Gobi desert with one leg tied behind my back, upside down, walking on my thumbs, that I met a well dressed, rather European looking chap.

    Meanwhile, a few days ago, I had, by telepathy, asked my comrades (on their way to another war) to leave behind a ration of water and food for my nourishment, refreshment, in case I actually did make it to the ‘end’ of my self programed ‘jog’.

    Well I did, though somehow news got out through the aether-sphere of my impending ‘thud’ at the finish line and lo and behold there he was, this well dressed ‘chap’, holding a tablet of sorts, scribbling something as I crossed the line of Due Respect of One’s Private Meanderings Upon the Otherwise Un-creatively Named Planet ‘earth’.

    In a nutshell, he didn’t even introduce himself or make brotherly eye contact with me, I found this very odd, for, where I come from, doctors, lawyers and anyone, who wants your money for their advice, makes eye contact, for the eyes are the gateways to one’s gold.

    He started off by saying that ~

    “Drinking too much water after such a task could lead to water drunkenness and death.”

    He continued,

    “Eating starchy foods after such a fast can result in severe cramps, clogging of the small intestines and retro bile processes that could lead to death.”

    Further on he concluded,

    “That a proper cooling down period is certainly needed, whereas I was to eat only ‘mush’, aka ‘baby food’.”

    Smiling, with chin a bit higher than the vertebrae historically allows a man to tilt such contents as his ‘other oval office self’, he tore off an invoice and promptly handed me a pen to ‘sign here’.

    Well, without shocking too many ‘western sized abdomens’, let’s just say that I skipped my before said ‘comrade rations’ and invited this fresh chap to dinner.

    With warm regards,
    Genghis Khan,
    Inventor and Eternal procurer of powdered beef for the long haul, aka, beef jerky.

    P.S. You wrote ~ “…salvaging a real school…” That’s just like salary programming, drive a used car, don’t be vain or in householder with your conscience and get a new one, nah, who needs a car even?

    affirmation #4,444,444,444 = ‘Robert Burton doesn’t even own a car.’

    Don’t be a mommas boy Bass!

    Like Rumi says, “When she comes to sooth your wounds, run!” (We’re assuming she didn’t cause the cuts and bruises, unlike the reciprocal food chain in the Fellowship of Friends.)

    Imagination ‘I’ #4,444,444,445 of a Good Student =

    “Weeee, let’s transform Robert Burton’s negativity, gotta practice for the next lifetime when I’m playing Robert’s role and I’m advising the other guy whose playing me, who is ‘I’ here, playing me now, then after he’s done, then…”

    Look a bit further into the form of this ‘school’, you will find that it teaches “Self Calming”, not “Self Remembering”.

    Affirmation (it’s a big number +1)

    “Hey, why not put off today what you already did in your next lifetime?”

    The Founders of the Fourth Way (the contemporary torch carriers) left their teacher’s, can you? And don’t go bringing up Rodney C’s name, he’s not a founder, though, he’s down with it all, nonetheless and in my opinion is thoroughly (Like Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson) underrated in the Fellowship of Friends; yet, wait a minute, we can’t go talking about crime in esoteric schools and man number 5’s crystallizing wrongly, can we?

    Yep, keep smoking those draperies Bass, the view into Robert’s ‘cave’ is getting brighter by your ‘cheer leading of us’…
    Love those Pom Poms.

    P.S.S.

    44 conscious beings?
    think again, how they are being put in your face, more like a
    44 magnum, with an extended black market clip holding 44 hollow point, magnesium dipped, mercury filled fatties.
    __________________________________

    Love to you all. (and you too Bass)


  463. This is today’s daily card:

    The lower self’s idea of beauty is not something
    divine, but something vulgar like itself.

    Love, Robert

    Rumi: Your image is in my eyes.Your beauty is not
    something to be hidden and forgotten.

    For God’s sake, Rumi is suffering in his grave for that….if only could he says something to RB……..


  464. Graduate and Elena,

    a karmic blog-initiated event, your meeting,
    face to face, mirror to mirror, this should not be fun for the formatory emotional center, yet, as all does, it will happen, outside of right & wrong…

    Elena,

    I know I am opening yet another of the three hundred Pandora’s Boxes I found in China Town after ‘The Big Fire’, yet, somehow, still your friend, regardless of your parameters which will no doubt come up and say ‘Uno does not fit me a bit’, (this seems to be our ‘play in the sand’ of this blog),

    I owe it to myself with the vision of having seen and met you so very often and deeply loved you as a struggling spirit, that ~

    You are walking down one of the most hypocritical avenues I have ever witnessed anyone write themselves onto; and to me, this is an enormous shock, for I have read much, seen much, and have yet to find someone who has such a split personality as yourself: I would advise you to get practical, professional assistance, call it a doctor, a Shaman, a spirit guide, a lover, whatever, all of the above, I am genuinely and deeply concerned for you and your soul, something has you and you do not know it: (you won’t like this, anyone wanting to assist you seems to be a threat to this ‘other’, yet) I will do my best from my side, to send out only love for the real you, real love, always now.

    Your friend,

    Unoanimo


  465. Some writers claim that “The System” is a belief system associated with the Fellowship of Friends that should be cast off as a neccessary step in individual development. Others freely use the Language?
    I was thinking about this earlier and my position.

    To me internally “The system” is not a belief system” it is much closer to a form of “Dewy Decimal system” that allows me to register and organize information.
    Internally it is how I think.
    If it offends others that I use this language I apologise.
    I have little investment in it externally.

    All communication involves boththe use of language and the attitude. If I am in an “Understanding or sympathetic mood” then perhaps it is easier for others to trust and share, or understand what I am trying to communicate.

    My problem is that I am niave.
    I still forget that others have different understanding. Sometimes I assume that anyone who has been in the Fellowship of Friends any lenght of time would have verified ideas like the Law of Three and Seven and the 4 functions.
    Not just as convenient word but as words that identify specific realities.

    One problem I experince with writing is what group of “I’s”
    ( oops there we go again there are no “many I’s, no centers, no body type, Center of Gravity ) than what is the right language. Should I try Freud he uses specific definitations that he made up for observations he made while taking large doses of Cocaine. He defines divisions like the ID, Ego, Super Ego , Libido, and sub conscious) or perhaps Maslow who speaks of a heirarchy of needs.

    So how I do I approach this ?
    According to Freud I have all these parts but he must be wrong as there are no many “I’s”.
    Does Maslow’s theory imply different intelligences within us or one with subdivisions of interest.
    Must I study arcane spiritual sources to name that which has no name.

    What ever for me the “work” language agree’s with my experience.
    So does an Idea like body type.
    What I find for myself is that it is hard to write a positive Post.
    I am often cranky. Not a very good “Good student ” act.
    OOps again I forgot I am not a member of the FOF and the system is gibberish.

    If I am feeling warm and fuzzy about a post than often I am Venusian and Passive, I admire those who carefully record and respond to each post. I am not now and never have been detail oriented.
    If I write a positive post then often I am in Solar and get into a lot of Higher state stuff.
    What often happens though is that my Mercurial will find something to argue with. Now this is not new I have observed this not only in myself but others.
    I have friends who are Blues fans and musicologist like myself. We may agree on 99.99% of something but we will find something to disaggree on just because of mechanics. If we both like an instrumental by some Blues guitarist we may disagree on which recorded version is the best.

    So for me what I experience are mechanics.
    Allow me the luxury of being myself as I am and I will try to do the same for you.

    I take the liberty of editing a selection from my favorite poem.
    “Crossing the Brooklyn Ferry” from “Leaves of Grass” by Walt Whitman.
    He expresses my own feelings and emotions ever so much more eloquently than I.

    I too had receiv’d identity by my body,
    That I was I knew was of my body,
    and what I should be I knew I
    should be of my body.

    It is not upon you alone the dark patches fall,
    The dark threw its patches down upon me also,

    The best I had done seem’d to me blank and suspicious,
    My great thoughts as I supposed them,
    were they not in reality meagre?

    Nor is it you alone who know what it is to be evil,
    I am he who knew what it was to be evil,

    I too knitted the old knot of contrariety,
    Blabb’d, blush’d, resented, lied, stole, grudg’d,

    Had guile, anger, lust, hot wishes I dared not speak,
    Was wayward, vain, greedy, shallow, sly, cowardly, malignant,
    Lived the same life with the rest,
    the same old laughing, gnawing, sleeping,

    Play’d the part that still looks back on the actor or actress,
    The same old role, the role that is what we make it,
    as great as we like,
    Or as small as we like, or both great and small.

    We understand then do we not?
    What I promis’d without mentioning it,
    have you not accepted?
    What the study could not teach–
    what the preaching could not
    accomplish is accomplish’d, is it not?


  466. Shelley ~ Post#443

    Thank you for doing that, wow, gotta look at it a few more times, I will post to you soon.

    ________________________

    Whalerider ~

    What does IMO mean?

    “I am of the opinion…” (?)

    __________________________

    Hello Spencer Post #378

    Thank you for your sharing…

    I have to make this short, yet, sometimes small things….

    you know the rest.

    From reading your post I sense that you have allot of intellectual information and others opinions connected to your experiences, lots of self-reassuring rituals, self-reassuring pointers to this and that person or exercise, are you Venusian? I do not mean this with tongue in cheek, yet, oftentimes the ‘tap root’ cannot be seen for all the lateral supports.

    I am with you in your experiences, yet, I believe we can get something from one another, not so much as playing
    “I see you seeing me seeing you” affirmations and ‘conscious’ opposite (profound I’s), like the one from Gangaji.

    Of course there is a door, just like the one your physical body came through…

    ‘The Door’ is thousands of years old, so far as esoteric literature goes: and I’ve seen it, walked into it, so, regardless of the profundities that keep esoteric teachers smiling as if there’s not a care in the world (or solar system), there are beings like Meher Baba to keep tha sheet straight

    and that goes for all of us, who know, for a deep loving certainty (in the gut) that there is an awesome worthiness in the struggle to transform something that is just one sixteenth of an inch beyond one’s level of being to endure and not throw away as a distraction or ‘beneath my chin’:

    if you do not wish to keep growing, then smile all the time, like Asaf B., that will get you somewhere, yet, I’ll leave that to you to sort out, as to where ‘where’ is, within you?

    _______________________________

    Love to you all.


  467. In post # 261 Howard CarterIn post #461 one Howard Carter states.

    “Some bloggers probably have an incorrect picture of the status of the blog to the FoF. Robert has not, to my knowledge, ever mentioned the blog in public.”

    This seems to equate whether Robert mentions something in public with its importance. Robert did not mention in public nor may he now his sexual preferences. This does not mean it is not very important to him and to the Fellowship of Friends.

    There are Fellowship of Friends members monitoring “The Wikepedia” article on The Fellowship of Friends daily. They have carried on a well documented editing war with other parties to maintain a pro Fellowship of Friends bias. I am sure Robert does not check on their daily status for all I know he may be a computer Illiterate using his connection to higher forces as his wireless network..

    “For the most part the blog is a non issue in the Fof. When I meet with friends it’s rarely mentioned and when it is the topic usually doesn’t take up that much space.”

    This means nothing maybe your friends don’t trust you. How would you know what is an issue for all members. What about Paris, Rio, Berlin ? London? Are there centers there? Can you do a poll of all members and deal with facts?
    There is a whole field of statistical Psychology that collects facts and analyses and interpretts facts. This is how polls are conducted whether for TV ratings or political campaigns and opinions. Your examples are called anecdotal and while consider as one source are not given as much weight as facts.

    I’m sure that now as ever there are circles of students including an “inner circle” more closely dominated by Robert and others in the outer circles who have insufficient being to value the total submission of will to a divine goddess in a man’s body.
    What about Paris, Rio, Berlin ? London? Are there centers there? Can you do a poll of all members and deal with facts?
    Is this true Howard Carter? Have you heard Robert say he is a Goddess in a man’s body ?

    Have you read the Canons of the Fellowship of Friends.
    Has Robert ever discussed publicly the ramifications of his legal status as divinely ordained spiritual leader.
    Is there any freedom to question Robert or is this an indication that someone has failed to “externally consider the Teacher” or “manifested from false personality”?

    One thing about the accuracy of the Blog is that it is a blog in which anyone can say almost anything.
    What about the accuracy of Robert’s divinely inspired predictions? Does the failure of these events to happen make him a false prophet? Did he even get a reduction in salary for not doing his job as a divine leader building an Ark to save civilization.. Has there been public discussions on these subjects. If not why not what is there to fear in allowing freedom of speech and thought? Isn’t conscience part of consciousness?
    Does Robert fear that if he allows free speech his students do not have sufficent being to continue accepting his will?


  468. Friends, in and out, I can confirm that Howard Carter is correct in that the “furor” caused by the Blog has largely dwindled down, and now is by and large a non-issue for the FOF. There is simply no time or energy that members have to devote to these subjects.

    I had some very close friends leave and while some are on the fence or questioning surprisingly to some these are a very small group.

    Yes there is an impact, but I will say, the Fellowship has grown stronger again.

    Here is why: even on this blog you can see that we are exhausting our topics rather quickly. There is lively discussion at times but not really deeply explored knowledge. So it is short lived. Contrast this with the school’s knowledge and intensive research in so many areas deeply connected to what we pursue.

    Good luck to all!

    Siddiq


  469. Been there, done that. Just how long do you think anyone cares to read all the blow by blow details unless they are themselves sick in the head, heart, legs, and you-know-where?

    The sign posts are planted.
    We know when we remember That is easy to forget.

    Justifications suck, just as sucks justify, because they must.
    Gets musty after a while, though.

    Get on the bus Gus! The one with the happy face.
    But the house won’t sell! So stay and gell, Mel.
    Michael row your ark ashore, allelluya.
    You know the one, just down from the trailer park.

    Never been one for lyrics, now I wish I had.
    Just for the fun of it.

    Ya ya, there is so little time.
    That’s a red flag if I ever saw one.
    The kind one ties to their rear end
    to warn others of danger on the way.

    All’s well. 4:44 and All’s well!
    Oho see can you see?
    I am sorry and I love you.
    I Am. Sorry and I love you.
    Peekaboo! I see you. Through a hundred legs.
    Another glass of wine and all will be fine.

    Lies, lies, and more lies.
    Don’t bother me one bit.
    Remember this and nothing else,
    If one bit, one was bitten.
    If one likes to be bitten, one likes to bite.

    The universe is fair as a blond.
    There is only justice in this world, and everywhere else.
    We have access to all there is, and All That Is,
    All there ever was and all there will ever Be.
    That’s the long, and the short of it. Hold on,
    Hold on, breath it all in, take it all in.

    Where did he get all those crazy ideas?
    Meditating at the compost pile?
    There was so much gold in there, right ?
    Ya you, rosewood, oakwood, firewood
    Go figure! Look! There’s a cougar in the meadow!
    No big deal. There’s a bigger one in the rose garden.
    Let’s blow this firetrap. I feel like a cappuchino.
    Allons!


  470. Even if people do not speak about the blog…they are reading it nevertheless……it is too interesting and that is what counts!

    It is much more interesting than the “Thoughs from the teacher,” at least in the blog you can learn something useful from some great people!!


  471. Yes the scab is thick and it feels better, but never imagine
    that thisis strength. It is still weak from the wound.

    The consequence! Damn I almost got it right once again!
    I came to this hole and I should have gone on to ore gone.

    No problem, I’ll get it right next time, or the next, or the next.
    The eejits won’t notice the difference, the sleepin eejits.

    Gerd twenty more! Make that two hundred and twenty for breakfast on Sunday. Oh and dear, just forget about da moon, will you? Work on the list and forget about the moon and its diet. What’s that dear? Cheez? Good idea.

    The moon eats cheez! Write that down, Boy.
    Right Boy! The bloody moon eats cheez!
    Easy come, easy go. G. and O. were so close they could smell it. The cheez, of course the cheez. Hummm. The cheez, jeez. Next time, next time.


  472. on June 19, 2007 at 1:22 pm one of the masses

    Oh but Howard Carter and Siddiq, how WRONG you are!! The blog is affecting lots of people and many are discussing it….most importantly the CHILDREN of students. And for your info…the local Oregon House population. Just yesterday a “life” person told me how concerned some of his neighbors were.

    This blog has been an amazinng tool in deprogramming many a brain washed soul…. And bringing friends back together.

    And so it goes.


  473. Dear Siddiq (#470),

    So the B Influence virus was not Aids after all? What a relief. Great propaganda at least.

    My sources say otherwise. That it’s only a matter of time. More shocking defections are imminent. But why should any of us care about this? My own concern is the truth; not that truth is the only goal; it’s just a better horse to bet on. In this respect the blog is far more trustworthy than Robert Burton or the Fellowship of Friends, whose lies have been so throroughly and indisputably documented. Everything from covert illegal immigration to doctored “keys” graphics to changing hydrogen warfare predictions into a mere symbol of internal jihad. And what about the most pernicious lie: Roberts external vs. behind-closed-doors behavior? The man with the beaming face in the Youtube excerpt vs. Whale Rider’s worst (and ongoing?) nightmare? It’s true that the blog lacks that tidy aristocratic conformity that permeates daily life at Isis. It is raucous and messy and scarily democratic…ordinary people (not the chosen ones anymore) telling their stories and trying to understand. But this style of messy truth has changed things, irrevocably, for the Fellowship of Friends. Time will tell…and anyway, in six months you or someone like you will probably be spinning the new reality to fit Robert’s latest preordained plan that shows he was really right all along and saw all this coming goodness.

    With love,

    joseph.granados@gmail.com

    Time will tell, and everything will find its level. And everything will be revealed including the true feelings of so many who are holding on for as long as its convenient because they want to see the fireworks display from the seat with the best view.


  474. Hello Howard and Siddiq

    We are still waiting for your response to the question
    ” How does “Cave drawings” images help you to Self Remember?”

    The reason people infof do not talk about the blog is not because it a nonissue but because of fear and inner considering.

    Every system needs checks and balances to function in harmony.
    Thanks

    CS


  475. 470 Siddiq
    “Friends, in and out, I can confirm that Howard Carter is correct in that the “furor” caused by the Blog has largely dwindled down, and now is by and large a non-issue for the FOF.”

    Doesn’t make sense that you and howard carter are posting here if all of this is a non-issue. Or, are you announcing to the world that this is your last post?


  476. Dear Siddiq (#470),

    Actually, the biggest FOF lie is something only you can discover for yourself, something I discovered for myself. The biggest lie is that Robert Burton loves you and sincerely cares about your evolution above everything else.

    With love,

    joseph.granados@gmail.com


  477. on June 19, 2007 at 2:16 pm one of the masses

    Damn! Just went on youtube to show a friend the video clip of Robert holding up the license plate…..and it is GONE! Says that the FOF has the copy rights to it.

    Guess it was just too darn embarassing!!


  478. I just talked with a friend in the fof:
    She says many students are reading the blog every night and continue pretend nothing during the rest of the time.
    Talk about split personality!


  479. 478

    I have no doubt. If you shut your eyes nobody can see you.


  480. Howard Carter:
    Hmm, 25 a month leaving…. wonder what the July list will show (12 weeks after Spring donation due)?

    Perhaps the 300 referred to the entire wave of the past 6 months? I can’t remember the post exactly.

    In literally 2 minutes of thinking, I came up with 27 from Isis alone since around Christmas. Since I have never been very closely connected to the gossip grapevine, and don’t have access to Propylaia any more, I suppose that you could at least double that to get a more accurate count?

    The interesting thing to me is that many/most of us are not leaving because of the sex scandals – many of us weathered those already, though we may be revisiting the meaning of them now. Many of us are leaving because of the teaching (rather, lack thereof); the lack of judgement, love and just plain sense from Robert; and, perhaps most striking, what we experience as a withering of our lives and souls in the domineering context of Robert Burton’s group. The corruption of the “inner circle” contributes also.

    I find it interesting that you insist that this blog is a non-issue at Isis, yet you spend quite a bit of time on it yourself, and I’m sure you, Howard Carter/DH, consider your life and soul to be centered in the Fellowship.


  481. on June 19, 2007 at 3:10 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    Regarding Howard, Siddiq’s, Vera.mente’s angles on the blog:

    With the number of hits every day on this blog it’s pretty obvious many people continue reading it whether they post or not.

    The experience I think many people have in leaving the Fellowship is it’s a process. It doesn’t typically happen that one day someone reads a blog and decides to leave the school. Sometimes it takes years of processing. Before I left I kept storing up information and recognizing that ‘something just wasn’t right’. It was a fairly passive process. Like taking notes in class.

    I think because we are all so different the deciding factor to leave comes in many disguises. For me it was talking to Richard Buzbee and hearing the story that took many of us away in 1993. After that there was no going back for me. And although I stayed for a year trying to help people out, we all have studied the Law of Three long enough to know that doesn’t work too well.

    And I’ve been reading the blog now for a few months and just like anything organic, it has intervals where there won’t be much action. Then miraculously, something kicks it up a notch and off it goes again.

    So blog on people. Your story or your continued posting is probably helping someone and I believe even if you’re helping one person out the door it’s worth it.


  482. on June 19, 2007 at 3:29 pm Was KathleenW

    481, wake up little suzy wake up

    “The experience I think many people have in leaving the Fellowship is it’s a process. It doesn’t typically happen that one day someone reads a blog and decides to leave the school. ”

    This was my experience. It probably took me a year to leave, and I didn’t make the decision until a week before when an event happened that left me with no choice. It wasn’t something new coming from the Fellowship, it came from within me.

    In the meantime, I maintained my good student act (for the most part), and I was told that people were shocked when G and I left. That surprised me because I was sure the inner turmoil must be leaking out on occasion. You just never know.


  483. I am not trying to diminish this blog, nor the sincere feelings or reasons for those who have left. I am also not saying there is no impact (this blog is probably a result rather than a cause of impact on the FOF–as Sharon wrote, the change in direction of the teachings)-this is not an attempt to spin-doctor some new prediction or FOF reality.

    I measure what I described in my earlier post by my own observations, hundreds of sincere people I see daily are not spending their time discussing the topics on the blog.

    Being on the blog is easy, contributing takes little or no effort. On the other hand, being in a school, working on oneself requires presence and intentionality–I simply see these real efforts at Isis and throughout the European centers I visited recently. That is all. You don’t just gather two thousand people that make significant contributions (including financial) every day, week and month.

    Then what really counts are one’s second to second moments of realizing one self that one can squeeze out of the day.

    Siddiq


  484. I left the FoF a few months ago but still live in Oregon House. I meet current students most days at social events, the Post Office, OH store, in YC. Very occasionally someone will ignore me, staring straight ahead like a robot (“Howard Carter” is one of these). Most people say hello. Many stop for a chat. Of the latter group, all are deeply disturbed by the current state of the FoF.
    Typical comments:
    “Congratulations on leaving, I’ve made my last payment, let’s get together for a cup of tea.”
    “I’m so confused I don’t know what to do. Let’s get together for a cup of tea”
    “I’m in the process of leaving, but I want to leave cleanly, so I’m working through some psychological issues.”
    “I was planning to leave but I just received a phone call offering to reduce my donations to almost nothing, so I’m going to stick around for a while.”
    “I’ve left emotionally, the teaching is meaningless to me, but I remain because (a) I can’t leave my friends (b) I’m too financially involved (c) I’m afraid (d) I’ve spent most of my adult life in the FoF and it’s too difficult to give it up now.”

    The true believers, on the other hand, are strengthening their barriers and becoming deliberately more blinkered, as described by HC and Siddiq. There’s a seige mentality. They’re terrified by the truths revealed on this blog and will do everything they can to avoid facing them. Meanwhile those with even a limited capacity to think for themselves slowly slip away.


  485. on June 19, 2007 at 4:05 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    Siddiq 483: “Being on the blog is easy, contributing takes little or no effort. On the other hand, being in a school, working on oneself requires presence and intentionality–I simply see these real efforts at Isis and throughout the European centers I visited recently. That is all. You don’t just gather two thousand people that make significant contributions (including financial) every day, week and month.”

    Working on oneself is a pretty an invisible process. It happens anywhere, any time. It can as easily happen reading and blogging as it happens anywhere else, including Isis.

    I think you are deceiving yourself when you observe Isis and what happens within the Fellowship is special in that regard and that ‘presence and intentionality’ is a phenomenon that happens more in the Fellowship than anywhere else on the planet, including this blog.


  486. on June 19, 2007 at 4:19 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    I’d like to revise my last post. ‘working on oneself’ No need to work on oneself. Oneself does not need work. In my experience what occurs is one opens oneself to the beauty that is already there just waiting to be released so that joy and the experience of being alive is fully realized.

    Sorry, got into my work ‘I’s again. Bad habit! Hard to kick!


  487. Hi
    as some day ago I loaded “The Plate”, today I received the following message from YouTube:
    ———————————–
    Dear Member:
    This is to notify you that we have removed or disabled access to the following material as a result of a third-party notification by Fellowship of Friends, Inc. claiming that this material is infringing:

    The plate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7oBJ6sTKAg

    Please Note: Repeat incidents of copyright infringement will result in the deletion of your account and all videos uploaded to that account. In order to avoid future strikes against your account, please delete any videos to which you do not own the rights, and refrain from uploading additional videos that infringe on the copyrights of others
    ……….
    ——————————


  488. 483: “hundreds of sincere people I see daily are not spending their time discussing the topics on the blog.”

    Of course they’re not, unless there’s a mass uprising that I’m unaware of. Discussing these topics in mixed company would get someone “kicked out of the school.” By the way, that alone (the fear of the consequences of speaking openly) is an unhealthy symptom.

    Or do you disagree?

    Howard, Siddiq, you keep avoiding these types of questions with your posts. Do you really think it’s healthy for people to fear open discussion? And what about the several other questions that people keep asking you (see above, and in previous pages) and that you keep ignoring?


  489. Siddiq 483

    You don’t just gather two thousand people that make significant contributions (including financial) every day, week and month.

    *******************

    For decades the Fellowship has not significantly exceeded 2000, it appears that the attraction/loss rate is stuck near that number, but now with one important change to the equation. In earlier times the FOF was entirely unknown (aside from the occasional careful newspaper article) but now, and it will increase, the reputation of the FOF is one of money grabbing, sex scandalized, power mongering kooky cult nonsense. You might find that even invading third world countries with dedicated missionaries will not help in keeping those numbers up, and it is primarily in the U. S. where the cash comes from. Few intelligent professionals with even an inkling of magnetic center are going to be unaware of your reputation and open themselves to the advantages of joining you and your teacher. When the bad press is coming from the ex-members then it is hard to argue with, how do you explain to those not yet indoctrinated that when you “leave the school” you lose the magical understanding that can only be nourished from within “heaven?” It will be hard to suspend critical thinking when it begins even before joining. Try a google on “FOF”:

    http://www.rickross.com/groups/fof.html

    http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/f/fellowship/

    http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/gurdjieffian.htm

    http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/f/fellowship/fmrmbr_statement.htm

    http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_13

    http://www.csj.org/infoserv_groups/grp_4way/fellowshipoffriends/grpindex_fellowshipoffriends.htm

    wordpress.com/tags/fellowship-of-friends/

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-04-15_Fellowship_of_Friends

    http://www.answers.com/topic/fellowship-of-friends

    animamrecro.wordpress.com/2007/03/01/the-fellowship-of-friends-discussion-part-2/

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ArkansasBob/


  490. I left the FoF a few months a go and still live in Oregon House. I meet students most days at social gatherings, the post office, the OH store, in YC. Occasionally someone will ignore me and walk past like a robot, head straight ahead. Everyone else says hello, many stop for a chat. All of the latter are deeply disturbed by the current state of the FoF.
    Typical comments:
    “Congratulations on leaving, I’ve made my last payment, let’s have a cup of tea.”
    “I’m really confused. Let’s have a cup of tea.”
    “I was about to leave but I received a phone call reducing my donations to almost nothing so I decided to stay for a while.”
    “I find the current teaching absurd and I’ve left emotionally, but I’m staying for a while because (a) I want to help my friends escape, (b) I’m financially tied to the FoF but I’m working on changing this, or (c) I’m afraid.”

    The true believers strengthen the barricades and become increasingly blinkered, as exemplified by HC and Siddiq. They are terrified by the truths revealed on this blog and will do anything they can to avoid facing them. They live in a dream world where the FoF is unaffected by these truths. Meanwhile, those with some remaining ability to think for themselves slowly drift away.


  491. Rhino Neal (488),

    In relation to people telling you they were “about to leave but received a phone call reducing their donations to almost nothing so they decided to stay for a while”:

    Some of us should offer to come back for a few months if they refund all of our previous donations.


  492. Ex-members might consider contributing their thoughts to:

    http://www.rickross.com/groups/fof.html


  493. Rhino Neal, do you want to come for a cup of tea? :)

    transfof@gmail.com


  494. # 483 Siddiq, you said:

    “hundreds of sincere people I see daily are not spending their time discussing the topics on the blog. ”

    You see hundreds of fof people daily? You must have a big role in the fof.

    You seem a kind soul Siddiq, and yet I feel you are lying somehow.
    You also said:

    “I am not trying to diminish this blog, nor the sincere feelings or reasons for those who have left. ”

    If you think the reasons are sincere for the people who left, why are you in the fof? Are you saying that it is ok to be in the fof in the light of all we know about RB and the great flaws of his teaching?
    Why are you persisting?


  495. 487

    Howard and Siddiq…and what the hell are you doing here if not acting as tentacles for the orgasm. You are certainly not changing anyone’s mind here who has already left. Are you a presence designed to intimidate FOF readers and keep them on the straight and narrow? Personally, even with your quasi-relative posts, I find your presence (and I use that term loosely) somewhat sleazy. But knock yourselves out.


  496. Siddiq 483

    You don’t just gather two thousand people that make significant contributions (including financial) every day, week and month.

    *******************

    For decades the Fellowship has not significantly exceeded 2000, it appears that the attraction/loss rate is stuck near that number, but now with one important change to the equation. In earlier times the FOF was entirely unknown (aside from the occasional careful newspaper article) but now, and it will increase, the reputation of the FOF is one of money grabbing, sex scandalized, power mongering kooky cult nonsense. You might find that even invading third world countries with dedicated missionaries will not help in keeping those numbers up, and it is primarily in the U. S. where the cash comes from. Few intelligent professionals with even an inkling of magnetic center are going to be unaware of your reputation and open themselves to the advantages of joining you and your teacher. When the bad press is coming from the ex-members then it is hard to argue with, how do you explain to those not yet indoctrinated that when you “leave the school” you lose the magical understanding that can only be nourished from within “heaven?” It will be hard to suspend critical thinking when it begins even before joining. Try a google on “FOF”:

    http://www.rickross.com/groups/fof.html

    The other links are awaiting moderation.


  497. Siddiq and Howard Carter.
    Many people in FOF have a good idea who you are. Among other things ,you are known for going straight to RB to inform on other people ‘ who may be losing their work’.. Therefore very few people would be open with you about what they may be really experiencing internally.
    My observations and interactions with people tell a very different story to yours. A VERY large number of FOF students are very disturbed by not only the facts revealed on the blog but also by the insidious way the officials of FOF have reacted….as Bruce would say, ‘Keep Talking’


  498. on June 19, 2007 at 5:30 pm Howard Carter

    To Chopsticks/Ames on cave drawings:

    A belated response to Chopsticks’ question, and Ames’ ongiong interest – “How does looking at cave drawings help you remember yourself?”

    You both say the question has not been answered and so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to my inarticulation. But in order to be more clear allow me to answer in part by re-wording the question to “How does looking at cave drawings prevent you from remembering yourself? The answer to that is – looking at cave drawings do not prevent me from remembering myself.

    I think the main point becomes more evident in the re-wording. Assuming, for the sake of this discussion, some cave drawings to be objective art then they would be depositories for worlds 12 and 6, and in order to retrieve those hydrogens one would need to bring the same hydrogens to the encounter. That’s how its worked for me; if you want to get higher hydrogens from an art work (assuming they are there) you need to meet the art work in a higher state and then an exchange can happen;
    i. e., one can receive any higher “message”, “key” or understandings that are inherent in the art and that the sum total of your being is able to receive. It would be lovely if we could just stand before the Mona Lisa or some other great art object and instantly be transported to a higher state. If that were the case the whole game would be different.

    However it’s not always possible to make oneself ready to receive higher hydrogens even if one tries. We’ve all stood before what we thought was “objective” art and drew blanks, or worse, thought about some mundane activity totally unrelated to the moment and thereby missed the entire encounter. But many of us have had experiences of actually being transported to a higher state in front of some art work and in those cases our own preparations/efforts have facilitated the event whether we were aware of them or not.

    For me there is an intermediate state of bringing the energy of the kings of centers to the art encounter. In that case one may not always enter a higher state but ones “sees”, or perceives, much more. I’ve had that experience with some of the cave drawings/paintings and found them to be much more sophisticated and inherently emotional than I would have ever imagined. And those experiences can be preparation for going further with them. It’s interesting that Robert would be the one to label cave drawings as wholly spiritual; I would be curious to know if any major art historian has credited them for being spiritual, as we understand the term, rather than simply pagan/primitive in nature.

    No external object or event either helps or hinders self-remembering as I can see. Some activities distract us from SR more than others though; I’ve found that it’s harder to SR while speaking (or typing) rather than walking, for instance. Knowing that has made me skeptical about the importance of words in general. Pre-historic man had no written language so maybe they did have an advantage we don’t have.

    We’ve all been transported to a higher state momentarily by a door slamming or by getting an unexpected “shock” of some kind, and these moments certainly add up. But the real reward comes through the states we acheive through our own efforts; or as Shakespeare would say, from “our own sweet skill.”


  499. 48 students left in May, 50 in April, 50 in March. These are the worldwide numbers. Usually around 25 students leave the FOF each month, so this is a significant increase, but not yet a flood. Many of these students have been in the FOF for 10-20 years or more. People who have not paid the spring donation by the end of June will be technically out of the school, so that should increase the numbers too. I’m leaving, so that will be one more. And I have a few friends who are planning to leave but waiting until the time is right. I have the impression that fewer people are joining.


  500. Siddiq “Being on the blog is easy, contributing takes little or no effort. On the other hand, being in a school, working on oneself requires presence and intentionality–I simply see these real efforts at Isis and throughout the European centers I visited recently.”

    One of the many good things I have found post fellowship is a sense of contributing to community. It does require presence and intentionality. I loved being at renaissance because I felt that I could do the spiritual by working and playing along side of my fellows. Gladly, that does not end. The leader Robert is not at all necessary for that! I just had to let go of the hand and cross the street by myself. We attract to ourselves community. And for me, it is better by far because it is not based on grandiose superiority and corruption at the core.

    A while back I taught a creative class – painting, with very talented participants. I was reminded of this because of the ‘effort/no effort’ discussion. Teaching creativity is so extremely difficult because there is no rote – one absolutely needs to be present and very open to each person to be able to see what might be helpful to them. And it is not the same for two people. There are some things that all can benefit from, but still, the individual’s path is unique. It is a great paradox.
    K


  501. on June 19, 2007 at 5:38 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    #495 you quoted: ‘who may be losing their work’ . Scary! What work? Do birds lose their work? Do trees lose their work? Do people lose their work? No. No ‘work’ to lose. Only observations to make and if something isn’t ‘working’ move on to something that is.

    This stuff can make you crazy!


  502. Howard Carter 497

    It’s interesting that Robert would be the one to label cave drawings as wholly spiritual; I would be curious to know if any major art historian has credited them for being spiritual, as we understand the term, rather than simply pagan/primitive in nature.

    ****************

    This was on a website for several years beginning nine years ago, it is from an ex-student who wrote it outside the FOF (it is likely where your teacher got his inspiration) :

    The word art derives from the Latin ars, which means skill. Art and regeneration are the same process, art expresses regeneration in terms of cultural expression. The articulation of any system of knowledge that has the aim of furthering human consciousness is art. Any endeavor promoting the idea of developing consciousness is art. Anyone working to crystallize his soul in the correct hydrogens is an artist.

    On the scale of the cosmos of man, art and religion originally were one and the same activity. Cave paintings of the animals that played a significant role in the life of early man, the herding game animals that the hunter-gathering tribes depended upon for survival, were visually depicted on the interior of caves with the aim of impregnating the symbolic womb of mother earth with unending generations of offspring. The ritual was initiated possibly in response to cycles of drought when game became unusually scarce. The tenuous and minute cosmos that represented the highest evolved animal demanded even then that all six process be manifested, and so a specialized tradition, the prehistoric origin of priests and ways, was perhaps first established with certain chosen individuals wielding the sacred power of creating images of life. Even then men understood the miraculous nature of art and its relationship to states of consciousness. They intuitively sensed the possible influence the production of higher states through the ritual of creation of images might have over external circumstances. Bison meticulously depicted on the interior of caves forty thousand years ago were the Byzantine icons of their age. When man first created art he was imitating the Creator. This is the process of regeneration, the conception of art wherein the creation strives to imitate the Creator. When early man fashioned figurines and cave paintings of the animals he depended on for life, he did so in a symbolic creation, he did this in order that his source of life be eternally regenerated. In art the artist strives to experience a certain emotion and then impart that emotion to the object of art, when others see this object they too will feel the intended emotion. From these early carvings and cave renditions, art developed up through the ascending cycle of culture. In the case of Stonehenge art acquires the scale of an entire culture, the entire society becomes focused on quarrying a certain quality of stone found many miles away and bringing it to a specific site that undoubtedly seemed to encompass unusual properties. The arrangement of the sculpture is precise and not only religious but scientific. The various artificial portals mark the progress of the moon, the planets, the sun and the stars throughout the year. On an even larger scale the building of the Great Pyramids at Giza also consumes the resources and labor force of the entire social order for generations on end. The symbolic aim of the living sculptures is not only scientific in its mathematical relationship to the earth, the moon, the planets and the stars, but it as well represents the regeneration in death of the ruling authority. The pyramids represent a regeneration of the soul and spirit into immortality.


  503. 495

    “Siddiq and Howard Carter.
    Many people in FOF have a good idea who you are. Among other things ,you are known for going straight to RB to inform on other people ‘ who may be losing their work’..”

    Now why aren’t I surprised? I would also venture a guess that these same “friends” also procure, or have procured for the guru. It takes the same type of person.. one with a thin coating of oil to slither this way and that.


  504. Siddiq

    I can see from the agregate of all your posts that you are where I was, perhaps a year ago – conflicted. So the impulse in myself to challenge your points of view is reduced. The captive mind struggles to protect the superstructure of belief that took you many years to build. RB’s statement “we are people who know too much” is coming to pass in an unexpected way, with the open and sometimes disturbing contributions on this blog. You are someone who knows too much, someone in a process, unconvinced by your own arguments.

    Be well


  505. on June 19, 2007 at 6:03 pm Ames Gilbert

    To Siddiq (#12-470).
    My best advice to you, now that “the furor created by the blog has largely dwindled down”, is to reignite it whenever you get together with your friends. All you are observing is that the issues are not being discussed openly. Try being the devil’s advocate, that is, put forward a serious proposition or claim that you find on the blog, advocate it and defend it. This will serve two purposes. The first is that you will by necessity have to put yourself in another’s shoes, and by doing the research needed to back up your temporary viewpoint, expand your mind. This is standard technique for effective debaters. The second is that you will do your friends a favor; you will be disturbing their comfortable perception of themselves and you. What better service could you provide for them and yourself?

    Siddiq, whether you have studied triads or not, the laws behind their mental conception are true and inexorable. So, whether you take the blog seriously or not, indeed whether the information and energy that must provide the balance to excessive order continues to counterflow using this channel or not, it will flow. The mill may grind slow, but it grinds exceeding fine. No amount of magical thinking can wish the results of natural laws away. By introducing some of the more difficult subjects you have bubbling inside, or that you’ve encountered here, you can ease the constipation in the FoF in a more measured way. Because, if the constipation is not alleviated, then an explosion will occur, and shit will fly into every corner. I’ve said before that I believe the answers to all the Fellowship’s problems can be found in the blog—here IMO is one example!

    With love to you,
    Ames


  506. Siddiq and other current, for our relativity, there are about 80 fellows contributing to the blog around this moment: we are more or less the 0,6% (80/13000(?)) of all the souls that C influence tried and his trying to help through the School.
    Of course this is just enough to produce more and more ‘I’s about anything.
    No wonder the real large body of the school is not affected.
    Just wondering how few other may just be looking around and eating this kind of impressions.
    Good luck to the few!
    GOlb
    P.S. However there are a few good notes to be taken in….


  507. 503

    “No wonder the real large body of the school is not affected.”

    That’s called a lie and it’s based on the arrogance of your self-supposed “knowledge”. I’ve tried to behave, but GOlb, you’re a schmuck, and the majority here knows that (you see, I can bull shit the same way).


  508. on June 19, 2007 at 6:37 pm You-me-us-they

    To us all, associating with the late turn of this dicscussion:
    the FOF and the blog.

    I left not long ago and one of the most enjoyable consequences is to see I have less “opinions” about the all thing.

    Did my departure made me more simple?

    If it works for you, fine.
    That’s a minimum since, clearly, it worked for me till…

    If it does not work for you, fine.
    That’s minimum since, clearly, it did not work for me since…

    ——————————————-

    To anyone still fearing loosing their Friends.
    Just connect, even as a “tourist”, with the Greater FOF site
    and verify.

    Not only some of my current friends are there,
    but ‘lost’ ones come to light,
    while new (so many I even do not know yet!)
    set up a brand new horizon…

    Large, large, large…

    Forever trusting who you are.
    Can I breath the open air?

    Gratitude.


  509. Bruce, sorry if I have offended you in your deepest understanding and verifications.

    The large body was only a metaphor: it doesn’t exist, because a body doesn’t exist. Only Soul exists and breath in the Present in the School athmosphere.

    You are also very lucky that large body really doesn’t exist as it will not start a large process of elimination on your tiny bold head, even if you pray for all its cells to manifest for the sake of verification.

    GOlb


  510. on June 19, 2007 at 7:07 pm You-me-us-they

    To Howard Carter, Post 496

    You write:
    one can receive any higher “message”, “key” or understandings that are inherent in the art and that the sum total of your being is able to receive.

    The subject of Art, used, re-used and, re-used interest me most.

    Yesssssssss, one CAN!

    This would mean, just in case Robert’s being/keying would be used as a satisfying substitute for one’s own…, you would have experience of your own?

    Do you?

    My experience of the FOF when it comes to Art, is manipulation! I do not need to defend this view.
    Actually, I hope I am wrong!

    Hope too, you do some home work and get more than the ‘daily bread’ Nestle might have prepared for you,
    so you can stay healthy!

    Gratitude.


  511. on June 19, 2007 at 7:20 pm Howard Carter

    Re: 2b – 487

    “Howard, Siddiq, you keep avoiding these types of questions with your posts. Do you really think it’s healthy for people to fear open discussion? And what about the several other questions that people keep asking you (see above, and in previous pages) and that you keep ignoring?”

    What gave you the idea Siddiq or I fear open discussion? If anything I feel like the opponents of FoF are more uptight with the few exponents than vice versa. Who likes to take things to a personal level or get insulting when someone expresses a different viewpoint? Usually there is one supporter of FoF who uses the same tactics as the critics do, like Crybaby, LOL, Hava, and they are pounded for their passionate but misguided fervor.

    Siddiq “called out” those people once with an appeal to use the work principles when they post. I once asked the Sheik to delete a post from a supporter because I thought it was too mean spirited, not because I was embarrassed, but because I was thinking of the people (ex-FoFers) it was bashing.

    Has any critic of FoF ever called out another critic for going too far with their vitriolic rhetoric?
    Do you really not notice how testy some of the regular critics can get with us?

    You seem to champion open discussion; do you really see that happening often? I see a lot of the same old stories – sex, money, distorting the 4th way, abusing power, its a cult!, etc., kudos galore. For me it seems to be a lot of complaining and being stuck on the same plane.

    Who’s talking about what they are doing with their lives in a spiritual sense since they left FoF? Any forgiveness to go around, or was that part of the baby that got thrown out?

    At any given time there are 3 or 4 of exponents of FoF and 20 to 25 opponents who post in a regular way; one would think you could suffer our presence easier than we suffer yours but you wouldn’t know that by reading the responses.

    As far as avoiding questions; with me it comes down to time spent on the blog. If my time were unlimited I might post more, answer more but as it is I have other duties that force me to be more prudent with my time.

    To Mole 495:

    I don’t know who Siddiq is and I doubt that you do either. By your comments I know you don’t know who I am.


  512. Howard Carter 509

    Who’s talking about what they are doing with their lives in a spiritual sense since they left FoF?

    **************

    Good point. In my view tossing the Fourth Way out with the FOF is unnecessary, an overreaction. Separate the teaching from the teacher and then separate your life from the life of the teacher. Stop paying him money, then find out how much he is interested in your work.

    In my case it would be silly to say that Robert Burton was ever my teacher, I had one dinner with him with twelve other people in a period of ten years. This is probably not all that uncommon, when Fellowship ‘students’ in the outlying provinces have no direct connection with the self-appointed “conscious being” then they are in imagination about being in a school because they are really nothing more than outer circle mules helping to haul money to the forbidden city of greed. The inspirational propaganda shipped out to them is more designed to keep them in harness than to wake them up to their real position.


  513. 508

    “Who’s talking about what they are doing with their lives in a spiritual sense since they left FoF?”

    Personally,for me, anyone who obviously “wears” their “inner work” isn’t worth trusting. If their “inner work” is obvious, externally, more often than not they’re full of **it.


  514. Siddiq “Being on the blog is easy, contributing takes little or no effort. On the other hand, being in a school, working on oneself requires presence and intentionality–I simply see these real efforts at Isis and throughout the European centers I visited recently.”

    Who the &%^$ do you think we are, on the blog???

    We are the people that created your Isis, built the winery, the vineyard, LC School, Theatron…
    We are your center directors, travelling teachers.
    We paid the $$$ per year to keep you on salary.
    We are your octave leaders.
    We set up the teaching houses you stayed at “in European centers I visited recently”.
    We lead the meetings you attended at Apollo/Isis.
    Your dedication, your entire life in the School has been lived by us.
    Your efforts & every meritworthy action has been enacted by one of us BEFORE you.
    We invented the rhetoric you would now spout back at us.

    Do you get it now?
    We are YOU – only time sets us apart.


  515. Unoanimo,
    #468 Glad I wow’d you, but I think the real wow is the timing of publishing my YouTube teaser on the heels of Robert’s licence plate video debuet. What are the odds of THAT my innocent young soul wonders? I mean… RB is giving Mr. Rogers and Captain Kangaroo a run for their money.

    Anyway…I should spare you the “oh! but this is not my bestest” or “I don’t like this promo tape really, but it’s ok” ness comments. Mind you, both of the above are true but the world seems to be going to Hades in a hand basket at warp speed so I figure the quicker I dispense with formalities and get this baby to Broadway, the better.

    #322…a geyser from the bedrock of y/our lungs breaching like Whale Rider’s magnificent first rant on pg. 8. Esoteric indeed.
    Bless you for putting that kind of energy into this blog.
    Love,
    Shelley

    ………..
    Traveler #225 My heart is deeply moved by your account. It is very helpful to hear your story. It touches my day. Thank you.

    Joseph G. #355
    Thank you so much for all of your postings. I have to agree with your comment to Sandra (Hi Sandra! I still love you.) about Linda T.,R.,K. It’s kinda like siding with Linda Tripp from the Monica Lewinsky debacle. Although I think our Linda is much more of a trip and has many more Monicas to account for.

    Greetings and gratitude to all posters!
    Thanks again Sheik.
    Love,
    Shelley


  516. I think it’s awesome and fascinating that Siddiq still believes in the Fellowship and finds value in it. Let him be.

    Howard also took time to explain very nicely and clearly how the prehistoric images are connected to self-remembering, and his explanation makes perfect sense if you happen to support that belief-system. I would have to agree with him that he’s being more civil than many vocal FoF opponents.

    In the end it comes down to what people want to believe, and who they think they are. There will always be some people who need to believe and follow. It’s okay. They’re just people, supporting what they see as the true and highest and best ideal. Can’t blame them for that. We all aspire to truth, it’s built into humans.


  517. 508: “What gave you the idea Siddiq or I fear open discussion?”

    Uh-uh. That’s not what I wrote. I wrote that fof members fear open discussion with YOU, and with each other in open places. Big difference.

    If all of this is such a non-issue, then why the lengthy essays? Anyway, keep writing.


  518. A few Hellos ~

    Post #469

    Hello ~ A former student,

    You wrote ~

    “Robert did not mention in public nor may he now his sexual preferences. This does not mean it is not very important to him and to the Fellowship of Friends.”
    ______________________________

    Actually he did. Sometime during 1994-1995, at a Town Hall meeting Steven D. was the chosen ‘bomber’ that let the news drop… Yep, that was sure tha scene, if there was ever a time in the Fellowship of Friends that it most resembled the staging of an Italian/American western, it was then, perhaps “Fist full of Dollars” is an appropriate title to use, the one where Clint Eastwood asks a group of men to apologize to his donkey, they don’t, so he gives them all a few extra belly buttons and spiritual purging vents.

    Has Robert Burton ever apologized to anyone’s Donkey?

    Of course not, its just a machine that produces conscious semen… And I thought Coke & Pepsi was bad for you because it eats through copper pennies when submerged therein… Hummm, I think I’ll have a cherry coke today.

    _____________________

    Hello ~ Chopsticks,

    You wrote ~

    ” How does “Cave drawings” images help you to Self Remember?”

    I came across this account as I was looking for a little girls lost poodle in the archives of the Notre Dame subterranean vaults…

    Circa ~ ‘Sometime after the dinosaurs and before Robert Burton’

    This inscription was found to have been a reply to a ‘hot topic’ during the days of the Neanderthal, just a few hundred years after Beelzebub’s ship left the surface of the earth for having experimented a bit here and there with female procurement of various ‘alien’ elixirs.

    The reply was an answer to the question ~

    ”How does “Cave drawings” images help you to Self Remember?”

    The answer was thus ~

    “Hello, my name is Fengreb, I live in Cave #4.56.78app;
    I one day found a drawing of another cave person with their cave number beside it, but it was different than most, it was not till I remembered myself that I realized that it had been intentionally spelled backwards so to hide their reason for having posted its blog, (I knew the word ‘blog’ sounded prehistoric!) so I went to this cave and there met my groom to be for the next 10 years, he didn’t live very long due to the hunter-gatherer thing, but I to this day still
    go to that cave and meditate, pronouncing as much as my underdeveloped brain can, backwards, remembering myself and him, his big muscles and how he once leaped over a teenage sabertooth tiger to save me from a stampede of angry giraffes.”

    _____________________________

    Hello Siddiq ~ Post #483

    You wrote ~

    “I measure what I described in my earlier post by my own observations, hundreds of sincere people I see daily are not spending their time discussing the topics on the blog.”

    Maybe you could add one more. Wow, Siddiq, first the porn encyclopedia, now this, what’s next, maybe you guys can start keying Robert Burton’s cave drawings, if you know what I mean?

    I wouldn’t talk to such a wiseacring phenomenon as yourself either, if my family, fate and fortune depended on it. Get a hold of yourself ole boy, or young bro…

    Yet I am truly glad you have braved the blog waters, for your janis-condition could be no greater exposed than here, well, save looking into the mirror without thought.

    No one in this blog cares about how the Fellowship of Friends perceives the material here (so far as looking for opposites and formatory spiritual affirmation-justifications go) or how effective it is or is not in un-petrifying the inner virus called ‘spiritual stoicism’ … For the more blog, the more spiritual stoicism hardens, for lack (or not) of a better word.

    Of course ‘its not making any impact’, as you can see it as such, its just another ‘They’, yet, the self within you that feeds off its sense of self by creating the blog as some make believe juxtaposition to the Fellowship of Friends is exactly what?

    You argue and comment, yet defy your very argument by commenting…Wow, how much hypocrisy has Robert Burton slipped into you people while you were sleeping?

    He has truly made it into the Wiseacre Hall of Pain, The Art of Self Calming always (yes I said it, always) leads to contradictions… Yet, for those who are so media driven crazy as to believe that Self Remembering involves a legitimate ‘two selves’, well, rock on, and tell Fred Flintstone I said “Get some shoes!”

    __________________________________

    Hello GOlb ~ Post #503

    You wrote ~

    “Just wondering how few other may just be looking around and eating this kind of impressions.”

    I don’t know, how’s Robert Burton’s draperies taste?

    Word!

    ____________________________

    Love to you all.


  519. Hey Traveler, Post #512

    Could you please change your title from ‘Traveler’ to
    ‘Dear Abby’ ?


  520. Howard Carter #508

    I agree with you, there are more of ‘us’ than ‘you’ and yes, we get a little testy when someone whom we put our trust in is screwing with our lives through manipulation of information.

    I consider this blog as the back room where you get to tell it like it is without the pretense.

    Is what you call spiritual internal or external?

    In My Opinion, the cave painting ‘crap’ is pathetic. The lower can see the higher by the trail of droppings they leave behind. Long dick, short dick, give me a break!!! You have to be blind not to see where RB’s head is really at.

    Although not as ancient, I found the petroglyphs of the Anasazi culture much more interesting than Lascaux. They actually studied world 12; the cave paintings represent animals of world 48. Looking for evidence of schools in your own backyard? Go to Chaco Canyon in New Mexico.

    I do want to thank you for posting. You are a brave soul.

    ***************
    Unoanimo, Spencer St Clair #412

    I do live on an island of sorts, although not at the latitude you think. I am neither butcher, baker, nor candlestick maker…


  521. Howard:
    “Has any critic of FoF ever called out another critic for going too far with their vitriolic rhetoric?”

    Actually, yes. 11/687


  522. Howard Carter (508): “Who’s talking about what they are doing with their lives in a spiritual sense since they left FoF?”

    Check out No Person, Rabbi Burns, many others.


  523. Unoanimo,

    Like all your other posts to me, you say things that you do not substantiate so I will not bother to argue with your formatory or derogatory apparatus disguised with a cloak of love.

    Are you upset because I did not call you back to visit? Or because I am unwilling to applaud your vanity?


  524. We all have our manner of exposition. I can’t imagine that, by now, people are caught unawares at a frequent poster’s style. I also can’t imagine that people are internally coerced to read a person’s post if they find it offensive. Just as we are not obligated to read long, meandering posts if we choose not to. We choose what we take in. If we are offended by a post, whose responsibility is it? Personally, I don’t need a mommy or a daddy to guide me, if I did, I’d still be in the FOF. Please feel free to skip my posts. I will continue to call crap when I see it as such.


  525. on June 19, 2007 at 9:31 pm Devil's Dictionary

    Third State: Moments of intense presence which arrive occasionally at random intervals, used by the FoF as a carrot to persuade members to continue making large financial donations and pointless spiritual efforts.


  526. Howard Carter 470
    “I see a lot of the same old stories – sex, money, distorting the 4th way, abusing power, its a cult!, etc., kudos galore. For me it seems to be a lot of complaining and being stuck on the same plane.”

    Traveler 512, beg to disagree, I think our friend Howard is sending out a desperate call for some “tough love”. I bet his teacher isn’t giving him any.

    “Same old stories”?
    “Sex, money, distorting the 4th way, abusing power, its a cult”?
    Baby, are you out of of your f*****g mind?
    What is it gonna take, bloodshed, to wake you up from your walking stupor?
    How can you accept that these things are not issues?
    How can you even think something like that?
    Who ever murdered your conscience?

    Much love,

    Laura (a bit of my Kali nature in there)


  527. Laura, you’re my hero.


  528. #470 Siddiq

    “Here is why: even on the blog you can see that we are exhausting our topics rather quickly. There is lively discussion at times but not really deeply explored knowledge. So it is short lived. Contrast this with the school’s knowledge and intensive research in so many areas deeply connected to what we pursue.”

    LOL LOL LOL LOL

    nuff said.

    (I got to learn how to do that cut and paste thing. It is way too hard to copy this stuff shaking with laughter)


  529. 496 Howard Carter

    “…some cave drawings to be objective art then they would be depositories for worlds 12 and 6, and in order to retrieve those hydrogens one would need to bring the same hydrogens to the encounter.”(suppositories?)

    LOLOLOLOOLOLOLLOLOL

    OOOOHH OUUUHH OOUUCH!!!!

    Somebody call 911. these guys are killing me. My guts are going to split any second!!


  530. 519 Elena

    I don’t have a horse in this race but…

    Sometimes your posts are sensitive and brilliant. Sometimes you are spinning doughnuts at five-points in downtown Wackoville.

    just saying.


  531. In post # 483 Siddiq writes:
    “Being on the blog is easy, contributing takes little or no effort. On the other hand, being in a school, working on oneself requires presence and intentionally”
    That’s totally ridiculous. My first verification on my first visit to The Ranch in 1974 was that the most comfortable state was to be in moving centered imitation of everyone else. Activity is not effort or even intentionally. Imitation is not doing. The most mechanical aspect of our being are moving centered acts. The moving center is what others see, it stores all our external acts.
    Honesty is an effort, speaking truth is an aspect of consciousness. Even writing clearly is an effort. One that none of the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burtons apologist seem to invest much energy in.
    Regurgitating undigested opinions is not an indication of an active inner process. Robert Burton has allowed a criminal aspect to develop in the Fellowship of Friends.
    There can be no consciousness without conscience. If there are those who choose to exchange the 4th way for an artificial environment and belief in the divinity of the Teacher that is fine.
    There are probably some 1500 members of The Fellowship of Friends not close enough to be corrupted by Robert’s immediate proximity who are working on the 4th way.
    It is the “inner circle ” who feel those that have devoted their lives to the Fellowship of Friends and have nothing else, those who remember all the good and noble aspects of the school, those who feel they cannot challenge the status quo, those who long ago left lives and families behind. These are as much victim’s as the new young male students who are taken advantage of. Are you so foolish that you believe young men truly desire to be sexual involved with an old man?
    Finally my post’s often require much effort and what I am able to achieve is only a result of returning to school to improve my verbal and written communication skills. Robert encouraged me to quit college to live on the Ranch.If posting on the blog takes no effort you do understand you are saying that when you post you are making no effort. This is another example of circular reasoning you so often use often in a manner that is contradictory to the point you are trying to make.
    on 19 Jun 2007 at 5:30 pm in post # 496 Howard Carter wrote
    “How does looking at cave drawings prevent you from remembering yourself?
    Howard this is that same circular reasoning. If you again rephrase this to “How does any impression or situation stop me from remembering myself” you may see the absurdity of the proposition..
    In post 508 Howard Carter states
    “Has any critic of FoF ever called out another critic for going too far with their vitriolic rhetoric?”Yes often. Don’t you read the blog. There are individuals who represent all points of the spectrum. Don’t you ever get tired of making false statements. Your in the wrong school ol’ Howard the Duck. Before you can be successful at esoteric school you need to be in good householder. In your case learn to write a coherent paragraph.
    “Who’s talking about what they are doing with their lives in a spiritual sense since they left FoF? ”
    I have shared more than you deserve ol’Howard the Duck. This seems like an appropriate name because like water runs off a Duck facts bounce of your rigid crysallized opinions and attitudes.


  532. The value of the blog is not in having new entertaining features, that is for an in flight magazine or the daily news. The blog represents process. To me this is a process of healing to only one that can correct crime or desease. Distruction can also be a neccessary part of healing just as doctors may need to cut out a cancer to begin a healing process.

    Part of the process is that as others read what has been shared they can recognize and accept what they may have experienced without having an ability or outlet to express. The next step is as they gain the confidence to tell their own story. That it may be the same as many others does not negate the process. process equals octave we are all at different notes of a spiral. Some resonate more with others some touch others across time. At a certain point it becomes important to be here to tell ones story not because I might need to but because others may need to see an example.

    That a truth has been said does not mean it does not need to be said over and over again. It is good that many can express their personal pain. It is an indication of how corrupted the Fellowship of Friends has become that such human needs are dismissed as mechanical or of our lower nature.
    Awakening does not mean that we become perfect machines. Maybe those who continue to hold to Roberts distortions of the 4th way need to reflect on a more personal meaning of functions are not consciousness.


  533. I think I will turn everybody in to the Better Business Bureau.


  534. on 19 Jun 2007 at 8:09 pm
    514 unoanimo replied to a post of “former student”

    You wrote ~

    “Robert did not mention in public nor may he now his sexual preferences. This does not mean it is not very important to him and to the Fellowship of Friends.”
    ______________________________

    Actually he did. Sometime during 1994-1995, at a Town Hall meeting Steven D. was the chosen ‘bomber’ that let the news drop… Yep

    What I was refering to was that this was a secret in the 1970’s. I was a student from 1973-1980. I knew Robert and spent time with him and his “enourage” Peter Bishop, Thomas Easely , others. There were those who lived and travelled with him. The common belief was that Robert had these young men around him because as a celibrete straight male he needed to insulate himself from too much feminent sex energy. This was a lie. I now believe he was already being sexual with his students in the 1970’s. This is almost 20 years before he publically acknowledged this.

    My point is in regard to the enneagram and how the 7th note is connected to the 3rd. Many aspects of the decision process that impacted many lives were based on this lie. I know of many relationships in which he encoureged or commanded married couples to split up. When I went to Pheonix in 1976 he ordered a very beautiful young Solar woman to go and had her husband stay with him.
    This was one of many incidents over the years.
    When regarded from this prospective he becomes not a Sun radiating and supporting those around him but a black hole that through its invisible yet massive gravitational force sucks all mass into itself until it actually warps time, space and gravity.


  535. 529

    That it does.

    One can feel the sucking pain even 20-30 years later, and it’s far wider implications beyond oneself. That’s one thing that feels so insane (literally) about the apologists. Their idea of being present is simply to be in the moment, not knowing the implicit need to also see a moments effect forward and backward. And Robert’s need to distort “presence” to keep the status quo.


  536. The moment without context is sleep.


  537. To be able to wound someone deeply and tell them not to identify is a deranged apprehension of the idea of presence, conscience and consciousness.


  538. on June 20, 2007 at 12:46 am wake up little suzy wake up

    #539 Touche’ Bruce!


  539. Bruce 537,538, 539 – wow. Very articulately and succinctly stated. Thanks.


  540. Sheik,
    I have a bad feeling about this “Graduate blog”. Am I paranoid or could it be a trick of FOF administration to “catch” some “bad students”? I was told that any time you click a link you leave a trace for some mailing list…


  541. Maybe a little paranoid. I think it’s probably a king of clubs just needing their own sphere of influence. You know.


  542. Are you a “bad” student?


  543. somebody 542

    Sheik,
    I have a bad feeling about this “Graduate blog”. Am I paranoid or could it be a trick of FOF administration to “catch” some “bad students”? I was told that any time you click a link you leave a trace for some mailing list…

    *****************

    Your bad feeling is probably justified, you might consider staying up nights worrying about it. –Emmanuel Goldstein

    ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Goldstein )


  544. on June 20, 2007 at 1:11 am Veronicapoe

    “derogatory apparatus” — I like that!


  545. on June 20, 2007 at 1:12 am Devil's Dictionary

    Payment is a principle: This piece of FoF dogma tells us that everything must be paid for, especially FoF events (sometimes twice), and everybody has his price (eg Robert’s entourage). Gambling is spiritually bad, unless organised by the FoF in the form of lotteries. Despite this, I personally made some money from students by wagering that the earth would not end in November 2006. Few were willing to put their money where their mouth is, but there were enough to make it worthwhile. More predictions, please!


  546. on June 20, 2007 at 2:12 am Veronicapoe

    Bruce/539

    Amen!


  547. on June 20, 2007 at 2:13 am Howard Carter

    Bruce – 539

    Don’t you like to wound people, without bothering to tell them not to identify?


  548. No, I prefer to burst bubbles. Some times a pin will do, sometimes a hammer. I try to aim my blows to not hurt the “person”, just the facade that has nothing to do with the “person”. You know, the bull shit. The bull shit’s a pretty dense armor, it can take it.


  549. I want to respond to “Howard Carter’s” observation that nobody on here is sharing their ‘spiritual experiences’ since they left the FOF.
    I left the FOF in 2001 after being in for 15 years. I thought then (and still think) that the Gurdjieff / Ouspensky / Fourth Way teaching has validity, so I looked around a bit and decided to start working with the Gurdjieff Foundation. I can’t express how exhilirating it was to be free from the controlling, oppressive atmosphere of the Fellowship. Although I had some really good friends there who I really respected, and we had a lot of great times (usually away from the prying eyes of the FOF authority types), I have to say that Robert always sort of creeped me out and, fortunately, I never had much to do with him.
    Anyway, in the Foundation meetings that I attend, many of the members have been in this work over 30 years, some over 40. Many worked very closely with Mme. Jean de Salzman, one of Gurdjieff’s closest students. They are beautiful, sincere people – like many that I have known in the fellowship.
    But you know what? – Nobody is going around claiming to be a man number anything, the leadership doesn’t abuse whatever authority they have to gratify their sexual desires., nobody tells me what music to listen to, what I can smoke, how much I can drink, what I can watch, who I can have sex with, whether or not I can laugh or make jokes, how to hold my silverware, etc., etc, etc. Instead we come together once a week and usually discuss how we have worked with a task that has been given for the week. I share my experience and the students leading the meeting respond. Sometimes other students respond. Each person has a turn. The task is always of a rather innocuous nature – usually having to do with bringing awareness to the body or something – never trying to get in your personal business. It’s something different every week and if you don’t do it for whatever reason you don’t get ‘expelled’ or fined or anything. In fact, the prevailing attitude is – it’s your own work and if you don’t want to make any efforts to see yourself or wake up nobody is going to persecute you. And, they only charge $25.00 per month to participate. Sometimes we read passages from books and bring questions and discuss them. We also have movements classes, work weekends, and the occasional ‘event’. It’s a good bunch of people and I recommend it if you’re still interested in the Gurdjieff work.
    I can hear the FOFers now, hollering ‘It’s not a REAL school’ and ‘They don’t have a concious teacher’ and so forth. Well, I can just say that my work now is a lot more real and substantial than it ever was when I was in the FOF, always suspecting that Robert was full of shit and having to mask my doubts and suspicions. I realize there are some out there who no longer practice the Fourth Way work and that’s fine, I hope you find something helpful or fulfilling. I think it’s a shame though that many may have gotten turned off to the Fourth Way work because Robert co-opted it and distorted it for his own sick ends. In some ways I think that may be even a bigger ‘sin’ than all the fisting and such.

    Good luck to everybody and thanks Sheik for making this blog.


  550. I also don’t go after the fragile students. That’s the job of the FOF, in many cases after they have helped make them fragile. Isn’t that partially the job you are doing here, reining in the wayward seeker. You and other member of the “inner circle”, that’s who I go after.


  551. Bruce: “The moment without context is sleep.” That is amazing. Wonderful.

    Hey, Siddiq and Howard and lol and anonymous (who I miss BTW), you might consider that there are so many responses to your posts because folks just want to communicate with you.

    After participating in the greater Fellowship site (however you are supposed to term it) I am delighted in connecting with old friends!! So…(out on a limb here)… hi to Ruth P and Susan R – or whatever your last name is now. Hi you guys – miss you and still think fondly of you. And Janet too! Hope you are well…!


  552. on June 20, 2007 at 3:07 am Toothless is Beautiful

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19311349/site/newsweek/

    Toothless is Beautiful
    A new generation of psychologists is exploring the way people change what they think and believe in order to achieve peace of mind. Happy birthday, ‘cognitive dissonance.’

    By Wray Herbert
    Newsweek
    June 19, 2007 – The Nuer and the Dinka tribes of southern Sudan share an unusual custom. Both of these cattle-herding societies remove several of their kids’ permanent front teeth as soon as they sprout: two on the top and four to six on the bottom. It’s a very painful procedure, done with a fish hook, and it leaves all tribe members with a distinctive slack-jawed look and speech impediments.

    This practice probably started long ago, when tetanus was rampant in central Africa. Tetanus causes “lockjaw,” but the tooth removal would have allowed children afflicted by this infectious disease to drink liquids even when their jaw muscles clamped shut. Although there has been no tetanus or lockjaw in the southern Sudan for ages, both the Nuer and the Dinka continue the custom of extracting the front teeth. Indeed, they believe the sunken jaw and lower lip are beautiful. People with front teeth, they say, look like jackals.

    Social psychologists Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson describe this odd custom in their new book, “Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me),” as an example of the psychological process known as cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is the extreme emotional discomfort we feel when two important beliefs, attitudes or perceptions collide. Humans cannot tolerate dissonance for long, so they ease the tension by making a change in belief or attitude—and justifying the change. In the case of the Nuer and Dinka, they “choose” to believe that the toothless look is aesthetically pleasing in order to justify the infliction of such trauma on their children. Any connection to health and survival is long gone.

    Before you deride this custom as primitive or barbaric, think of something a little closer to home, like a humiliating club initiation. What better way to cultivate allegiance than to make entry an aversive experience? After all, if you voluntarily put yourself through a demeaning or painful ritual, it must be worth it, right? Indeed, as Tavris and Aronson show, there is hardly a realm of life in which we do not “make things OK” to get rid of the emotional discomfort caused by cognitive dissonance. This year is the 50th anniversary of the theory, first proposed by Aronson’s mentor, Leon Festinger. The idea has proved remarkably resilient, enduring many theoretical challenges and more than 3,000 experimental tests of its validity, many of which are described in “Mistakes Were Made.”

    Yet for all the theory’s power, Festinger never spelled out just why cognitive inconsistency produces psychological discomfort. Or why that discomfort motivates us to change. Why can’t we just live with inconsistency and contradiction? A new generation of psychologists is now taking the theory to the next level, exploring the motivations underlying our sometimes odd beliefs and practices. Some scientists have even begun for the first time to trace psychological discomfort and self-justifying acts to their roots in the brain’s complex neurochemistry.

    One of these dissonance-theory revisionists is Eddie Harmon-Jones, a Texas A&M psychologist who has run a slew of laboratory experiments on the inner workings of dissonance. Harmon-Jones believes that dissonance is essentially about action, specifically about everyday decision making and choices and commitments. In his view, it’s not just abstract “cognitions” in collision. We experience unpleasant emotions whenever life forces us to choose a course of action, but we are not fully convinced it’s the right course. Or put another way, when we make an important commitment, the mind instinctively seeks out proof that we’ve done the smart thing.

    Here is a typical experiment: Harmon-Jones assembled a group of college students who were on the record opposing a tuition increase. (Right, they weren’t hard to find.) Then he told half the students that they had to write a persuasive essay favoring a 10 percent tuition hike. The other half were told that they could write such an essay, but it was entirely up to them. All of the students in the first group wrote the essay, and some in the second group did as well.

    What Harmon-Jones did was experimentally put the students in the second group in a state of emotional conflict by giving them a choice in what they did. By choosing to write the essay, these students were taking a stand, but they didn’t believe in their own choice. Harmon-Jones suspected that these conflicted students would somehow have to alleviate their own psychological discomfort, and indeed that is exactly what they did. When questioned later, they—more than those who were forced to write—had altered their beliefs about a tuition hike. In more ways than one, this is akin to deciding that a painful dental extraction is a good thing.

    Life’s commitments—to a job, a cause, a mate—require big emotional investments, and can carry significant emotional risks. So it stands to reason that the brain might be hard-wired for the mental work of monitoring and justifying choices and actions. Harmon-Jones decided to explore this possibility as well. He attached EEG electrodes to the students’ brains just as they began to write the persuasive essay and measured neuronal activity in several regions. He found that the students who were working through psychological conflict had more neuronal firing in their left frontal cortex, a brain region associated with motivation to change. The EEG was basically recording belief change in action. That’s how fundamental the need is to defuse dissonance.

    What if you make a choice that is really bad and you can’t hide from it? What is the mind’s strategy for dealing with a colossal mistake? Well, as Tavris and Aronson note, public figures from Henry Kissinger to Ronald Reagan to Scooter Libby and Alberto Gonzales have opted for a simple phrase that deflects all responsibility: mistakes were made. But just as commonly, people who don’t want to own up to a mistake become even more entrenched in their belief once it is proven wrong. They throw good money after bad in the market, grab for straws in a dying relationship or send yet more troops to fight a misbegotten war.


  553. on June 20, 2007 at 3:07 am Howard Carter

    To Bruce – 550

    “No, I prefer to burst bubbles. Some times a pin will do, sometimes a hammer. I try to aim my blows to not hurt the “person”, just the facade that has nothing to do with the “person”. You know, the bull shit. The bull shit’s a pretty dense armor, it can take it.”

    I would say this is just what RB is doing.


  554. See, that’s what I mean about dense, sometimes unfortunately impervious.

    No, that’s what he SAYS he’s doing. What he shows is something else. Try playing your own devil’s advocate, seriously, and deeply. The closer you get to the “inner circle” the more “the line” becomes blurry, even invisible. Then one’s even rudimentary conscience goes right out the window along with their capacity to discriminate. Not RB’s discrimination, real discrimination. Discrimination from “conscience”.


  555. To Yesri Baba and Unoanimo,

    Thank you Yesri Baba.

    It’s strange. Some people write to me in private and thank the posts I send. Others tell me how crazy I am but no one actually addresses the subjects.

    Having lunatic is no longer something that shames me although I would try to control bothering others with it if I knew how. Like Unoanimo’s vanity bother’s me, I don’t think he knows how to control it either but then it is the same with any feature and those that pretended to be so sane turned out to be totally mad. Robert and the rest. So I sincerely wonder what makes some of you think you are more sane?

    So what is this blog? We come out here and call each other names without addresing what people are trying to say?

    How do you expect me to really understand the angle you are looking from if you don’t dialogue? Don’t you think I could just as well assume that what I am saying is different, not as formatory and you’re too lazy to think about it and seriously address it? Or like Unoanimo who declares all this love that he’s had for me over time and then tells me I’m the most hipocritical split personality person he’s met and sends me for proffessional help just like they do in the Fellowship to anyone that dissents? No wonder I can’t help comparing his behavior with Robert’s.

    All this love that you pretend to have for me Unoanimo is nowhere but in your imagination for you have not been close to me in the Fellowship.

    At least I am not hiding behind a fake name to say the things I am saying. If I was going to attack people as I did to the Fellowship, I did not hide behind a name like you do. I did not find it ethical but indeed ethics does not seem to be the issue. No wonder students become terrified to come out here to life and much rather stay in the silence of the Fellowship where they don’t have to put up with so much dissonance.


  556. Responding to 496 from Veramente,

    “You seem a kind soul Siddiq, and yet I feel you are lying somehow.
    You also said:

    “I am not trying to diminish this blog, nor the sincere feelings or reasons for those who have left. ”

    If you think the reasons are sincere for the people who left, why are you in the fof? Are you saying that it is ok to be in the fof in the light of all we know about RB and the great flaws of his teaching?
    Why are you persisting?”

    Veramente, I do feel the reasons people leave are sincere, and those friends of mine I speak to that are leaving or planning to leave, are also sincere. I feel that most posting on this blog are sincere.

    I do not see the contradiction that it is sincere for me to stay. The reason I post here, and participate is because this is supposed to be a dialogue and like all I want my voice to be heard. I do not have hopes someone will change their mind as a result of my posting, but from time to time it may make one of many think. This is so because many posters here make me think–when we do not judge (or try to) it is amazing how much we learn, it does not matter if the source is the blog or any former member or current member.

    Why do I stay–because I am still learning things, even after being here for years. It has not stopped. I can’t explain the meaning of the prehistoric images in a way that will satisfy anyone.

    Siddiq


  557. on June 20, 2007 at 4:22 am Another Name

    Dear Howard and others

    Simple souls can count

    I count 80 people who have left the last 7 months, not counting the Asia, Russia, and South America. Just people I know. I know of at least 50 who are planning on leaving ….

    Queen of hearts people who talk more then 80 % in a conversation are avoided. They are taking up so much space and they already know it all.

    In 1995 period 200 people left and now it coul dbe easy over 250.00 and waite for Juy 15. You do not have to be a phropet to make these simple calculations.

    So dear Howard enjoy your life wherever you are I enjoy mine and I enjoy the honest friends, which enrich my life at this moment.

    Wishing that Influence or the universe takes well care of you.
    they are better capable and we humans.


  558. on June 20, 2007 at 4:40 am Howard Carter

    Another Name – 557

    You are forgetting the other half of the equation; those who are joining.

    For the 30 days prior to the middle of last month 1 person joined for every 2.3 that left. For these times that’s not too bad (or too good, depending on one’s politics).


  559. Hello ‘A former Student’ ~ Post #536

    Yes, thank you for the clarification…

    The way your post read, it was as if you were speaking in general, not about a specific period of time…

    The celibacy police? Was that your idea or interpretation or did Robert Burton actually state that this was the reason he kept the fawn-hawk-vultures around?

    I must say that I have met nearly all of the current inner circle ‘boys’ (and still do from time to time) and many of them… well, good grief, make it short Uno., very, very, very seldom were any of them able to get past the aura of ~

    ‘Hey, just watch what you’re saying, you know that I know that you know I am with Robert or ‘Bobby’… LOL, yes, it gets pretty weird in the inner, inner, inner circle.

    or weirder yet~

    ‘Hey, I’ve gotta watch what I am saying, I know that I know that I know that I am with Robert.’

    Interestingly enough, all of them are ‘mommas boys’; and well, since Robert Burton considers himself a goddess in a man’s body, if the shoe fits, you might as well cut a door, install a wood stove, open a few window spots, raise a flag, put up a sign that reads ‘No daddy’s boys or girls allowed’ and call yourself ‘The Woman in A Shoe, Part 2’.

    I also sense, that nearly all of them shallow-know, from time to time, that they are riding on a train loaded with ‘soap on a rope dope’, ‘book dope’ , ‘hope dope’ , ‘quote dope’ and ‘dope dope’…

    Yet, as we know, knowing what is the work and what is an effort, is not the work, nor is constant intellectual practices of verifying the existence of one’s higher self anywhere near to actualizing its creation of a real footprint, so many King’s and Queen’s simply curl up on the throne, never touching the earth with their ‘sensitive feet’.

    Robert Burton is creating some very odd psychic karma or perhaps simply reinvesting into its form so to carry it forwards, an Olympic torch lit with LED lights… Opening essence, chasing things around in there without knowing what to corral, what to sell, what to offer to the market, etc., is a certain form of crime, yet, since he himself is a product of such ‘stirring’…

    Robert Burton is not able to see that he is simply making clones of his unfinished business, strange, that oftentimes people consider growth as whatever a person can keep doing the same way with various changes in form and intensity…

    I would like to hear some comments from previous-boys, as to how it was that you justified staying with a person that maintained that hurting or compromising your essential feelings was ‘for your evolution’? Did it truly feel that way and if not, how did you reconcile this?

    Perhaps one could say that a certain spiritual mass is built by being hurt, only after one realizes that something within asked for it, other than one’s ‘more intentional conscience’, one’s higher:

    often, upon noticing what the dog is actually dragging out of the house late at night, someone’s baby, one wakes up a bit more to what is exactly going on down here on earth, that there are unconscious exchanges of a certain kind of pain-currency occurring on a massive global scale and has been reoccurring for tens of thousands of years and each one of us has an impulse pain-shopper and pain-creditor within who participates in this madhouse as ‘normal’ and ‘humane’.

    A great yogi once said ~ “Your freedom is your slavery.”

    ‘Spiritual’ cults are a good example of this, along with every form of democracy on the planet; not to suggest that the form government is ‘mechanical’, after all, would anyone really say that since the dog is dragging the baby out of the house the baby has consented? Its not the form of the Fellowship of Friends, its the friend himself.

    I also find it to be very ‘symbolic’ and ‘factual’ of Robert Burton’s and The Fellowship of Friend’s truer level of being, that although he/they have desperately used the Sleeping Masses as a toilet, throne and footstool they have given nothing to humanity in general…

    And when the school does, by default, give back to life an ex-student, what? Do they support this offering as something intentional, a positive, ascending will of the gods, who are supposed to be not formatory?

    No, they attach the morality of Christian-Freudian role reactions, saying that it was a crime, death of the soul, going to hell, etc. Yet, hey, don’t forget, for only $1500 – $2500 dollars, depending on the current exchange rates and whether or not Robert has had his cuff links stolen, you can get out of hell with your snow balls unmelted and back into The Fellowship of Friends,

    that is if Robert Burton wiseacres up enough ‘return of the prodigal son scenario on you’ to make it look like your deep throating his alligator belt; otherwise, nope, can’t come back, your will is not my will…

    Damn, I wanna rap this… moderation; yes, ommmmmm.

    Did someone say something about the book “Self Remembering”? You mean the auto mechanic’s schematic on how to ‘Take apart and reassemble an on board computer relay jostling apparatus?’ (That no do-it-yourself-mechnic would ever understand.)

    Right, its written only for ‘the few’, ‘the chosen’; to me, more propaganda to further separate humanity (in your face style) from the Fellowship of Friends or a teaser, similar to a trip wire unknowingly connected to one’s genitals, that one’s girlfriend unknowingly trips over by
    agreeing to marry you because she’s too, ‘book dope’ and wants you to have a green card, so to match the ‘color of money’ and ‘green with envy’ self-comfy-necessities.

    Dear ‘A former student’, thank you for your sober reply; often a vent can be the exhaust tunnel for the Space Shuttle exhaust.
    __________________________________

    Hello Whalerider ~

    Hummm… Well, not a baker, alright, no cardiac implosions, that’s good. Alright (again), you found the toaster I hear, then how is it that I am still looking for it? I guess old habits are hard to break. Can you loose it again? HC is starting to post once more and I need an appliance-third force not to purchase his wiseacre parcels with my monopoly money.

    ___________________________________

    Hello Harpie, Post #516

    Go girl, its nice to see a Post vibe that matches the poster’s title.

    ________________

    Hello Sharon, Post #523

    Way to be studious of the blog archives, not all is lost after all… It is great to see certain practical expressions of time and being-ness expressing themselves here, in real time, not next life time. Thank you for your clear and simple pointer, which to me is (as a selfless act of fact) more valuable than what it is being pointing to and the subject that initiated it… Rock on!

    __________________

    Hello Shelley:

    You wrote ~

    “Unoanimo,
    #468 Glad I wow’d you, but I think the real wow is the timing of publishing my YouTube teaser on the heels of Robert’s licence plate video debuet. What are the odds of THAT my innocent young soul wonders? I mean… RB is giving Mr. Rogers and Captain Kangaroo a run for their money.

    Anyway…I should spare you the “oh! but this is not my bestest” or “I don’t like this promo tape really, but it’s ok” ness comments. Mind you, both of the above are true but the world seems to be going to Hades in a hand basket at warp speed so I figure the quicker I dispense with formalities and get this baby to Broadway, the better.

    #322…a geyser from the bedrock of y/our lungs breaching like Whale Rider’s magnificent first rant on pg. 8. Esoteric indeed.
    Bless you for putting that kind of energy into this blog.”

    ______________________________________

    It is my opinion that Captain Kangaroo, Mr. Rogers and George Bush are both from Area 51… end quote.

    Thank you for noticing that Post #322 was from ‘our’ lungs, I sensed that scale, although not sure how much of it’s intent was felt as such, nonetheless, there it is and here we are, us with it, it with us.

    Remember, there is real hope, because once white bread is burnt, its not white bread anymore.

    I will pay real money if you can find a ‘professional’ rapper to rap it with a original soundtrack to go with it, (a band, sound studio, etc.) post it on Youtube and get this party started in another dimension, call up some ‘other parties’ to start getting involved in this blog.

    My initial ‘wow’ was not so much in its content, although I liked your interaction with the audience as if you were looking in the mirror and speaking to yourself, interesting for me, that coming together like that…

    The ‘wow’ came from the notice of the ‘inner you’ that is pulsating through the body language, intonation, facial expressions, etc.

    I like to look for the being within the form, this to me is one of the top 5 points of looking, to see what exactly is pulling the strings, making ‘the show’, it is very rare to see someone pulling their own strings, I sense you can do this, thank you for yet another verification that Fairy Tales are real and fairies too.

    ______________________________

    Love to you all.


  560. To 542 Somebody:
    Greater Fellowship is not a trick of FOF administration. In fact, they cannot get there unless they are invited personally (and they are not invited).
    This is a very positive initiative started by a small group of former members. Now this online community grows very quickly…

    When many of us left FOF we left friends behind. Now looks like it’s time to re-connect and have fun talking to each other, sending pictures, blogging and having discussions about this and that.

    You are certainly paranoid, but it’s OK, it happens very often after years in FOF. Fear permeates so many sides of your FOF life – just take an honest look!

    This site is for the friends who are pretty much done with anonymity and fear of “administration”. There are names there and smiling pictures, and it’s very positive, healing and fun.

    If you’re that afraid to be caught by FOF administration as a “bad student” – you probably better of not joining Greater Fellowship community. It’s not about students or non-students, it’s about our FRIEDNSHIP.

    Janna Makaeva
    malaec@optonline.net


  561. Hi Janna (561),
    “Somebody” was talking about the Graduate blog in post 542, not the Greater Fellowship. I think the capital “G” probably threw you off, and it’s getting late. But I agree with everything you wrote. :)

    I do wonder what the reasoning is behind the Graduate blog, since we have one here, but anyway…

    Best wishes to you and all.


  562. The Graduate Blog: http://fofgraduates.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/graduates-of-the-fellowship-of-friends/

    Click at your own risk, people, if you are still members of the Fellowship. :)

    Kidding. (I hope.)


  563. on June 20, 2007 at 5:33 am Ames Gilbert

    To Howard Carter (#12-508).
    Howard, let me guess at your identity. How about… Daniel H——d? Not so hard, several of us came up with that. And Siddiq, I’ve been wondering about you ever since your no–show at the party. Not a man; a woman, is my take. A softer energy. One who has had an experience with Burton that was a stand–alone highlight, in which he gave you complete attention at a crucial time, and for which you feel you owe him absolute loyalty. Someone close to him, but safe from one aspect of his dark side. Someone with a degree of independence. Hmm, I’m much more hesitant about this one; but… how about—Rose K—–y?

    Anyway, I appreciate reading and learning from both of you, whoever you actually are. You are trying to present other points of view in an environment that can seem to be hostile at times. Sometimes I suspect your readers learned things other than intended by your written words. Thanks anyway. And, remember that some of us are offering valuables in return, perhaps points of view fresh to you, or ‘photographs’ —free of charge! No need to dip into your wallet! Pick and choose at your pleasure and your leisure! So, spread the word, some of your fellow students might appreciate such a deal as well, it would be selfish to keep it to yourselves. In these days, when the price of supporting Burton’s lifestyle is rising considerably faster than inflation, the cost–benefit ratio of this blog can’t be beat.

    Finally, may I remind you that most of the people writing here have a perspective that you can’t have; they have come to the Fellowship of Friends, paid greatly, taken great risks, and left. They have seen it from all sides, before, during, and after. So, they can empathize with you; you came, you stayed. They did too, but added further adventures; they went past the sign that said, “Here Be Dragons”, despite warnings of eternal damnation, lost chances, and ‘going to the moon’. You will never have that knowledge (and that freedom) until you also leave. And you should leave while voluntarily leaving is possible. After the Fellowship collapses it will be too late to wonder if you would have ever had the courage to do so of your own free will—before such events forced your hand anyway.

    With love to all, ‘in’ and ‘out’,
    Ames


  564. Comrade 562

    The Graduate Blog:

    http://fofgraduates.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/graduates-of-the-fellowship-of-friends/

    Click at your own risk, people, if you are still members of the Fellowship. :)

    Kidding. (I hope.)

    @@@@@@@@@@@@@

    The Graduates Blog is for people that get moderated here and are in a hurry to see their thoughts in print. You go there and your message is instant. No one is being spied on or monitored, the moderator has only logged into the site three times for various problems (no keeping track of IP addresses). I don’t care who you are or what you say as long as it is on topic (FOF related). Ethnic bashing is off topic. The reason we need a second blog is to insure that there is no monopoly in the FOF blogosphere, as has been explained before. Current FOF members are invited and encouraged to express their thoughts.

    “Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    Give me your chain-smokers, your limp-wristed
    Your beer-bellied, your left-handed, people that
    Slur their words, the misspelled, the unmanageable
    The home-wreckers, hounds of the Baskervilles and
    Such multitudinous naves of Toyland…


  565. on June 20, 2007 at 6:35 am We Were There

    To every FoF inner reading this blog, Harpie 516 bears repeating – I’m sure Siddiq got the message:

    Who the &%^$ do you think we are, on the blog???

    We are the people that created your Isis, built the winery, the vineyard, LC School, Theatron…
    We are your center directors, travelling teachers.
    We paid the $$$ per year to keep you on salary.
    We are your octave leaders.
    We set up the teaching houses you stayed at “in European centers I visited recently”.
    We lead the meetings you attended at Apollo/Isis.
    Your dedication, your entire life in the School has been lived by us.
    Your efforts & every meritworthy action has been enacted by one of us BEFORE you.
    We invented the rhetoric you would now spout back at us.

    Do you get it now?
    We are YOU – only time sets us apart.


  566. #559 Unoanimo

    Amor Mio,
    Here’s your boy. A six foot seven inch rapping Jew.
    http://www.yoyenta.com/?p=1173
    I hired him about 2 years ago for a special event. He’s brilliant! But, as I said earlier, I’ll help you do it yourself. In fact, I’ll trade you… you rewrite the press release/web info and program for ‘Angels’ and I’ll teach you to rap! (Not kidding)

    BTW- I was married for five years to the Alpha of this strange Alphabet of men that RB is typing his unfinished childhood business on. He will not ever appear on this blog I assure you. What was he like? Wounded Mars-Solar army of one, which is
    what I found so sexy about him. I think I rehabilitated him pretty good not knowing what a nightmare he’d just come out of when we married. He had a beard and believe it or not I never saw his face; which can be taken as a metaphor of sorts. As I said on my first post, RB did indeed apologize to him. More details on the blog would only bore people and date me.

    I’m so glad you could perceive something of value on a 3×5 inch screen. I’m sure you’d love the original material in the book.

    Much love and gratitude for all the time and risk you take on the blog. I hope your voice is also out circulating in the general public. May my six foot seven inch rapping Jew friend inspire you!

    love,
    Shelley

    …………..
    #539 Bruce
    I love you… makes me proud to be a Mercury!
    …………
    #560 Janna
    Can’t thank you enough for the new site!
    “What has been good will become bad and
    What has been bad will become good.” Talking with Angels:Budaliget 1943
    …………
    #555 Elena
    You are part of the fabric of the blog. Sometimes woof and sometimes warp. You have cracked many taboos and shocked me with your earnest search to find solid ground after your ordeal. A little eccissivo at times, true, but what they hey, the blog is public and personal at the same time, which is why it is such unique way to express oneself. – My name is my name to me but to many old timers reading this blog my name does not have anything to do with me but is recognized as the name of the quintessential ‘bad’ student. I actually got an email a few weeks ago from someone who was told not to speak to me at a fof event in Bolzano in 1991 because I was ‘bad’. I was breast feeding my daughter at the time. A really dangerous person don’t ya think? Feminine Dominance to the max! When I heard that RB renamed Renaissance ISIS- goddess of fertility -I can only assume that the great teacher I once knew was indirectly trying to help those students he loves to vamoose before he really went crackers. Anyway, these are my thoughts for you- for what it’s worth. Robert is right, he really IS under C-Influence. Question is, does HE take it seriously? You will love Alice Miller’s book Breaking Down the Walls of Silence.
    Much love,
    Shelley


  567. on June 20, 2007 at 6:47 am for the Best_2

    to HC # 500, about caves and art.

    I for long thought that RB had no clue at all about so called “objective art” and that such thing actually doesn’t exist. Maybe G. had the material for understanding this idea, but we for sure lost the thread.

    This completly warped “the impression octave” making it a limiting judgemental process about our surroundings.

    I rather witnessed this aspect of the FOF as instinctive gratification: i.e. surrounding oneself with pleasant artifacts.

    Somewhere G. said that esoteric knowledge can only appear once you are saturated with ordinary knowledge about a subject. RB completely skipped that step of immersion into past civilization (egypt, caves,…) and just made them fit his current “weltanschauung”.

    alex k.


  568. Love you too Shelly.


  569. Now is verified!

    In this blog there is no freedom of speech – it is not dirty, it is actually clean, washed: the moderation sustains only one part (watch your brains).

    A few post have been posted under a new name to give relativity about this blog and has never appeared.

    It is clear that the material has been moderate because posts from new entries like ‘Evil’s Dictionary’ (welcome) has been accepted and also was not perfectly inherent to the discussion.

    It seems that only posts about ‘you said that I say and he says that you say that I said that because….’ are on line, and a few other general anonymous lines against or abasing the subjects discussed.

    Congratulations, all this is going to die its proper death in it’s own darkness.

    BOlg


  570. GOlb,

    Go back to your cave! “Never” is a long time. Maybe they’re still being moderated and will soon show up?


  571. on June 20, 2007 at 8:57 am for the Best_1

    #563 Ames guilbert
    “You will never have that knowledge (and that freedom) until you also leave. And you should leave while voluntarily leaving is possible. After the Fellowship collapses it will be too late to wonder if you would have ever had the courage to do so of your own free will—before such events forced your hand anyway.”

    Thanks for this concise post.
    Some friends told me :”yes I agree with you, but I will stay in the school to see the end”

    It sounds like these people watching in wonder at this big wave that will overcome them and finally kill them during the tsunami in Indonesia.
    Aline


  572. on June 20, 2007 at 9:17 am for the Best_1

    #Bruce
    “The moment without context is sleep.”

    So well said, it has to appear twice.

    Thanks
    Aline


  573. on 20 Jun 2007 at 6:47 am567 for the Best_2
    to HC # 500, about caves and art.

    I for long thought that RB had no clue at all about so called “objective art

    If you are a member of the greater Fellowship check out my new album entitled “objective art” it contains both original works of my own and a favorite I fould on the internet.
    If you are not in the greater fellowship check out webshots scottduncan and look through my albums


  574. Thanks Tim for demonstrating your equipment,
    of course (for the other dull minds) what is meant in post #571 as in this one is ‘never BP’.

    Greetings from the shadow that knows to be a shadow in a cave.


  575. on June 20, 2007 at 11:50 am Kid Shelleen

    A riddle from a friend of mine:

    “What’s the difference between a current fellowship of friends member and an ex-fellowship of friends member?”

    Time.


  576. “What’s the difference between a current fellowship of friends member and an ex-fellowship of friends member?”

    Time. Yes, a very different use of time, even when reading or writing in a blog.
    We always make a profit and what one gains everyone gain.


  577. on June 20, 2007 at 12:25 pm Eyes wide shut

    I wonder what REB would say about a license plate that read ‘501c3’ that was on a car that sped off down the road and disappeared into the glow of the sunset and vanished forever? Or, like Uspensky, who walked down the street and turned into a smoke shop, only to wake up a few hours later and realize the identification and sleep? REB has that plate in his head – did you know?

    ****** ****

    U.S. Internal Revenue Code
    501(c)(3) Exemption Requirements:

    To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and NONE OF ITS EARNINGS MAY INURE TO ANY PRIVATE SHAREHOLDER OR INDIVIDUAL. In addition, it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

    Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations. Organizations described in section 501(c)(3), other than testing for public safety organizations, are eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions in accordance with Code section 170.

    The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and the preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency.

    To be organized exclusively for a charitable purpose, the organization must be a corporation, community chest, fund, or foundation. A charitable trust is a fund or foundation and will qualify. However, AN INDIVIDUAL WILL NOT QUALIFY. The organizing documents must limit the organization’s purposes to exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) and must not expressly empower it to engage, other than as an insubstantial part of its activities, in activities that are not in furtherance of one or more of those purposes. This requirement may be met if the purposes stated in the organizing documents are limited in some way by reference to section 501(c)(3). In addition, an organization’s assets must be permanently dedicated to an exempt purpose. This means that if an organization dissolves, its assets must be distributed for an exempt purpose, to the federal government, or to a state or local government for a public purpose. To establish that an organization’s assets will be permanently dedicated to an exempt purpose, its organizing documents should contain a provision insuring their distribution for an exempt purpose in the event of dissolution. Although reliance may be placed upon state law to establish permanent dedication of assets for exempt purposes, an organization’s application can be processed by the IRS more rapidly if its organizing documents include a provision insuring permanent dedication of assets for exempt purposes. For examples of provisions that meet these requirements, see Publication 557, Tax-Exempt Status for Your Organization.

    An organization will be regarded as operated exclusively for one or more exempt purposes only if it engages primarily in activities that accomplish exempt purposes specified in section 501(c)(3). AN ORGANIZATION WILL NOT BE SO REGARDED IF MORE THAN AN INSUBSTANTIAL PART OF ITS ACTIVITIES DOES NOT FURTHER AN EXEMPT PURPOSE. For more information concerning types of charitable organizations and their activities, see Publication 557.

    The organization MUST NOT BE ORGANIZED OR OPERATED FOR THE BENEFIT OF PRIVATE INTERESTS, SUCH AS THE CREATOR or the creator’s family, shareholders of the organization, other designated individuals, or persons controlled directly or indirectly by such private interests. NO PART OF A SECTION 501(c)(3) ORGANIZATION’S NET EARNINGS MAY INURE TO THE BENEFIT OF ANY PRIVATE SHAREHOLDER OR INDIVIDUAL. A private shareholder or individual is a person having a personal and private interest in the activities of the organization. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.

    http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

    ****** ****

    Rumour has it that the U.S. Immigration and Naturalisation Service (INS – part of Homeland Security) is privately and individually interviewing fellowship members holding religious visas and/or ministerial status to find out exactly what it is that they do with their time and how they fulfill the above mentioned charitable and/or religious functions in service to humanity. Are they doing traditional and customary activities for those privileges? Seems they believe the Fellowship of Friends could be a bogus religion in service to a despot. And, we all know how the U.S. of A. is ready, willing and able to invade World 3 (ooops, I mean Third World) countries to deal with despots. Egads, this is a Third World country! – just ask some Katrina victims in N’Orleans. Hey, they might even want the mineral rights. What if someone ‘spills the beans,’ so to speak (pun may or may not be intended in relation to precious bodily fluids). Could REB be taken into custody when crossing the U.S. border while he is out in the open? Stay tuned for the next episode where Gomer (as in Pyle) gets the goods.


  578. 571 GOlb
    A few post have been posted under a new name to give relativity about this blog and has never appeared.

    147 the Esoteric Sheik of Inner Confusion
    An explanation on the new system of moderation. People will be identified by their name, e-mail and IP address. Their first comment has to be moderated in order to appear on the blog (won’t be in real time), their subsequent posts will appear real time. For this reason there are some new comments in between those that appeared real-time. Re-reading the last 70 comments or so could be a good idea. Changing your name or e-mail address will mean that your first post will once again have to be moderated. No one has been blacklisted in the past two days, YAY!!!


  579. mm, mmah, mmahma, mama,mama, ugh, ugh, ugh.
    Ps. ugh!


  580. on June 20, 2007 at 3:27 pm Devil's Dictionary

    “School Of Love”: A description applied to the FoF by its members, meaning that the Teacher loves his students and that they love him and each other. Everyone else, including family members, is excluded because they are “life”.

    The Teacher shares his love with his entourage in the unusual ways described by Simon, Whale Rider and others above. He loves his other students by inventing weird, nonsensical theories for them to believe and by asking for more money.

    Love is shown to former students by pretending they don’t exist, thus encouraging them to return to the School.

    Older single women often have a particularly strong emotional connection with their Beloved Teacher. This is demonstrated externally by for example having a car number plate saying “I LOVE RB” or by pushing other students aside at meetings so that one can stand at the front and grin continuously at the Beloved Teacher in an “inviting” fashion. Drooling is discouraged, however.


  581. Kicking a dead horse: I was photographed once as being a horsy. As in, he sounds like a horse.

    Anyway, I have a complaint. I started reading 4th way material in the early 70’s. The more I read the more zealous I became because it “sounded true”.

    One day I picked up a copy of the East-West Journal and saw an advertisement for a 4th Way school (not FOF). So, I overcame a lot just to head toward that out state school.

    Lo and behold, I find FOF. I was ready for a rough and tumble school and found something else. I joined because the people I met had the ‘work’ categorized and ‘sounding true’.

    I did not want to leave ever. But, what I am showed up and out the door I go. It was painful. And stayed painful for a long , long time. Once in a while I would remember what Rodney Collin said about being under the influence of the Fourth Way but not associated with a group. That sustained me and the recurring thought of not letting the ‘work’ grow cold.

    Not once did I mention FOF in an evil way for the first few years and then finally never mentioned it again. I still in my heart of hearts cannot say anything evil about FOF because I do not have any personal experiences that would allow it.

    I went looking for a real Fourth Way school and found this blog twenty plus years later. I cannot imagine what some of you are going through emotionally or mentally.

    That’s my complaint. Tell Robert I want a ’44 Lincoln convertible for …. I was watching Wayne Dryer on PBS. He told a story (to make a point) about a Russian who was holding his wife’s hand as he laid dying. “What if”, he said, “my whole life was wrong”.

    I did not join any other group or “system” of psychological study. Because I found what I was looking for in the Fourth Way.

    So, tell Robert I want A ’44 Lincoln convertible for living a life wrongly.


  582. A former student (post 469) wrote, regarding the ongoing Wikipedia “conflict”:

    ” I am sure Robert does not check on their daily status for all I know he may be a computer Illiterate using his connection to higher forces as his wireless network..”

    I suspect he gets his information the same way he gets everything else — by making other people do it for him.

    As Sharon (#482) says, “Many of us are leaving because of the teaching (rather, lack thereof); the lack of judgement, love and just plain sense from Robert; and, perhaps most striking, what we experience as a withering of our lives and souls in the domineering context of Robert Burton’s group.”

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely, eh?


  583. #572 #579

    “It is clear that the material has been moderate because posts from new entries like ‘Devil’s Dictionary’ (welcome) has been accepted and also was not perfectly inherent to the discussion.”

    Just quoting myself for the slowests. The test-posts were posted yesterday. 2+2? Thanks.
    GOlb


  584. Hey Arthur:

    Thanks for sharing! All it takes is for one person to post something honest and the whole blog is elevated. (and GOlb is left in the dust)

    You graduated when the real you showed up and the good student act fell away. You have everything you need, your authentic self, your work knowledge, and your freedom. Your job is to transform your suffering. That way with time you create being. You may have been asked to leave the FOF, how could you leave the school? The school is all in our heads, it’s not a club. The FOF is a club; you have to pay to be a member. The school exists on another plane. Don’t you ever think for a moment that you lived your life wrongly. We have RB as an example for that. Would you rather be a chicken hawk or a horse?

    Don’t ask for a car, dude, they destroy the planet. Ask for an Arabian stallion!


  585. Howard (461)

    Some fresh data. About 430 people left in the last 18 months. (This number may be off by 10% in either direction.) See my previous comment about the kind of members leaving – 10 years or more). Although the total fof count may be similar to that of the last 25 years – an assertion which I very much doubt – the most established students (American and Western European) now constitute an ever increasing percentage of those leaving, which is unprecedented.
    Most new members are from Eastern Europe and Latin America; and this is useful to the fof for all kinds of reasons. They have fewer English skills, forming a kind of protective barrier from negative information about the group. In addition many of these new students are allowed to pay a pittance – even in their own currency – to be members, and whose primary motive is to secure work visas and green cards. No wonder RB found fundraising to be of such value; it brought new income – which was incidentally easier to hide than teaching payments. In addition, vouchers keep all those visitors from abroad working to maintain the property saving the fof thousands (notice however their are no new buildings, improvements which cost real money). Finally the newer and younger the students, the easier they will swallow the new religion.
    Established members can plainly see that the teaching has been completely subverted by materialistic motives and RBs personal agenda.
    It’s word games for money at this point.


  586. #584 (and GOlb is left in the dust)

    Well, if you speak about that level dust it was and to dust it will return: a little bit of dust in the middle cannot do too bad.

    I’m what observe in between Alpha and Omega.

    Greetings,
    GOlb


  587. Red Rain 585

    It’s word games for money at this point.

    *********

    The Fellowship of Friends is a money making machine.


  588. Red Rain # 585

    Most of your post rings correct to me, with the exception of: “(notice however their [sic] are no new buildings, improvements which cost real money)”.

    I would guess that the Theatron cost as much as if not more than any building at Isis. And will continue to cost, since it was not built completely to code and will have to have more money poured into it in order to be able to use it. Quite a white elephant – terrible acoustics, one season usage only, and very uncomfortable, but oh, so lovely to look at.


  589. Hi Sharon,

    “but oh, so lovely to look at”

    It is, of course, a matter of one’s personal taste. I’ve seen many recent photographs of Isis. I’m not going to go into my uncensored opinion of what I see, because I don’t want to hurt the sensitivities of those who are enthralled with the result (unless you really, really press me to- just kidding). But again, our taste is VERY subjective. And not just taste, there’s other implications that extend much further, and also touch upon lack of real conscience and consciousness in the organism that is the FOF.

    love ya


  590. on June 20, 2007 at 7:46 pm Lust for Life

    Devil’s Dictionary #581 – spot on!…. and funny too!

    Conditional ‘love’ is what the FOF was all about. Approval for acting the good student and toeing the line. Features of a cult wouldn’t you say?

    In the meantime, lots of students rebelling by disregarding ‘exercises’ and discovering what it really is to be a human being. Once you leave you can do it unfettered. So why stay? Fear of losing friends, security, bodily comforts, some imagined secured destiny as a higher being….take the risk and leave, and maybe find yourself looking back and wondering why you never did it before.


  591. 590

    ” Fear of losing friends, security, bodily comforts, some imagined secured destiny as a higher being.”

    That’s the payment one makes for the possibility of getting your life back, and re-discovering the wonderful parts of oneself that you willingly abandon to be a “part” of a self-devouring superstructure.

    And actually, one discovers that fear is a pretty small price to pay, especially now with this growing support system, with something much closer the conscience than one would find in the FOF. Especially in the world today…without some semblance of conscience we’re fucked.


  592. on June 20, 2007 at 8:20 pm Truth is Where You Find It

    “Picture yourself standing at the foot of a grand, cascading staircase. One of your goals….awaits you at the top. Your first step is to learn a technique. You throw yourself into this technique, mastering it, maybe even becoming a teacher. You now own this first step. It’s ok to love it, but be careful not to fall in love with it. Because if you do, you will sit down, grab a blanket and pillow, move in, and make this step the center of the rest of your life. But what does that mean about the remainder of your journey up the staircase? It stops. Now is the time to bless your first steps…and continue forward.”

    “The Reconnection”, p. 118 by Dr. Eric Pearl


  593. on June 20, 2007 at 8:28 pm Was KathleenW

    This may have been addressed somewhere else, but . . .

    After looking at the photos of the beautiful buildings and grounds at Isis, I wonder if students on salary are provided with health insurance.

    I’m guessing that it’s still those people who do the physical work, as well as all the other work required to keep things running (office, kitchen, laundry, etc.)

    Does anyone know?


  594. 592

    amen.


  595. Context, without the moment, is awakening.


  596. 595

    As in I am, therefore I think? I don’t think so.


  597. on June 20, 2007 at 8:51 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    #592: I have seen Eric Pearl a couple of times. What a great experience and he’s definitely right on! Thanks for that.


  598. Truth is Where You Find It 592
    Dear Truth, I like your name. In relation to which, I accidentaly found the lyrics to the song “Ivory Tower” on a website today and feel compelled to post them. It’s from Van Morrison’s aptly titled “No Guru, No Method, No Teacher”
    “When you come down
    From your ivory tower
    You will see how it really must be
    To be like me to see like me
    To feel like me

    Take a look at me I’m a poor man’s son
    I never did no harm to no one
    You’ve got money in the bank
    And I don’t have none

    You can see through
    Your rose coloured glasses
    In a world that seems
    Like glamour to you
    You’ve got opinions and judgements about
    All kind of things
    That you don’t know anything about

    Don’t you know the price that I have to pay
    Just to do everything I have to do
    Do you think that there’s nothing to it
    You should try it sometime”

    Van the Man, 1986


  599. on June 20, 2007 at 8:54 pm wake up little suzy wake up

    #596 Yo Bruce! Kudos to you!


  600. on June 20, 2007 at 9:05 pm Veronicapoe

    For those interested, “Meeting of the Board of Directors, Renaissance Monastery, February 20, 1982” is now online:

    http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_1115

    This document was removed by archive.org owing to “issues regarding its content.”

    The document was attached to pleadings filed in the Superior Court of California for the County of Yuba and is a matter of public record obtained during a public record search.


  601. 598

    Wow, good one. I guess he had his experiences too.

    I missed that one until now, Thank you.


  602. 593 Was KathleenW
    “I wonder if students on salary are provided with health insurance… Does anyone know?”

    During the 80s and 90s, definitely not. I would be extremely surprised if members on salary today are provided health insurance. But I’ll repeat Kathleen’s question… anyone know?


  603. No health insurance. Even workmans compensation was axed about two years ago.Everyone on ‘salary’ was asked to sign a disclaimer stating that their wages were actually ‘compensation’ for voluntary services so as not to be covered by insurance laws…..


  604. on June 20, 2007 at 9:52 pm Across the River

    Some of my favorite posts over these pages are those that express in different ways the point on which understanding turns. Now many of us are more connected in the freedom found through that experience than in the bittersweet memories of the Fellowship of Friends.

    A couple of years ago I became friends with a woman who helped me make a break through. She was a founding member of the Fellowship and facing her imminent death from illness. I helped her manage her affairs and we developed a true fondness for each other in her last several weeks.

    She was a very bright woman who loved to be intellectually challenged. I asked if she would be interested in helping me resolve a confusing personal dilemna. She agreed to try, so I told her my story:

    Many years ago when my children were little, a friend I was living and travelling with allowed my children, in their curiosity, to fondle him to the point of orgasm. We lived a bohemian lifestyle with much sexual freedom among the adults. As children they had no judgement about the incident and it happened once. I learned about it from them years later when they were adults.

    This friend in question was my oldest friend and we were still in contact. He didn’t immediately ‘remember’ the incident. He talked about our previous lifestyle as ‘pursuing a dream’, it’s ‘society’ that brings the guilt, etc. I told him a trust had been betrayed and an apology was needed, no matter how late. It was necessary for him to acknowledge to my grown children his wrong-doing, no matter how late.

    A few days later he gave me one note addressed to both of them. It described how he had been looking for a better world, that he had always tried to do the best for them, and he always loved them. He was sorry IF he had hurt them in any way during those years. The note’s misdirection confused me and I felt I had to try again to bring him into understanding.

    So, this was my confusing, personal dilemna. When I layed this story out to my confidant and asked how to reconcile this, she said in her very direct and no-nonsense way, “Well, you’ll never be able to reconcile it, because he doesn’t think he did anything wrong!”

    And that was it. On a final, long walk together with my oldest friend, I quietly and relentlessly spoke on this point from many angles, hoping to facilitate that turn of understanding that would reconcile all of us. He could not meet me here and now with a new understanding.

    So in a third state standoff, I released this friend. Within that year I also released Robert as my teacher.

    You are broken. I am sorry and I love you.


  605. To respond to post #561 unoanimo

    “The celibacy police? Was that your idea or interpretation or did Robert Burton actually state that this was the reason he kept the fawn-hawk-vultures around?”

    I ssupose in retrospect this is my interpretation, However at the time I was a member of the Fellowship of Friends. I did not question that Robert Burton was a higher being and I felt I had verified it. Know with different information I am able to review my impressions and see how niave I was. I mean I spent a good amount of time around Robert Burton in Los Angeles, The Farm, San Francisco and Phoenix.

    I have not nearly expressed how angered I am at finding out he is gay. I have not actually sat done and discussed my own sexuality and how his specific instructions effected my marriages and relationships.
    When I first heard this from Stella on the internet before her death I was like many current students in denial about “My Teacher”. I did not understand her anger. Know I’m beginning to get it.

    I can now be found in digital form on the Greater Fellowship site.
    “Scott” Duncan Shockley


  606. on June 20, 2007 at 10:21 pm Was KathleenW

    603 Mole

    “No health insurance. Even workmans compensation was axed about two years ago.Everyone on ’salary’ was asked to sign a disclaimer stating that their wages were actually ‘compensation’ for voluntary services so as not to be covered by insurance laws…..”

    ——————————–

    The buildings, landscaping and art seem to be valued more than the well-being of the students who build, maintain and caretake them. Interesting set of priorities.


  607. #593 Kathleen, #603 Mole

    Although there is no health insurance plan that is sponsored by FOF, there are still a number of students on salary covered by CA workman’s compensation plan (for work-related illnesses/accidents), and the fellowship is paying for that coverage. There are a number of students who are not, and it is unclear (to me) what criteria are in place to determine who is and who is not covered. There was also, at one time, an agreement between the local clinic (run by a FOF doc) and FOF to provide first visit for general screening and treatment of uncomplicated ailments. I do not know whether that agreement still exists. For most care that include specialized opinion or treatment/X-Ray or lab work, salaried students need to go to nearby towns. Most of them, given their low income, will qualify for the state-sponsored insurance coverage “Medical”.


  608. That’s how it was when I was on salary. In addition, when the government made them pay minimum wage we had to give back any excess over what our “salaries” were supposed to be. We were also asked to give back any tax refunds we received from the govt.
    Medical- so WE are paying for the health care of the salaried students. That sure cheers me up.


  609. 582 arthur wrote:

    “One day I picked up a copy of the East-West Journal and saw an advertisement for a 4th Way school (not FOF). So, I overcame a lot just to head toward that out state school.”

    LOL!!
    While living in NYC some friends and I had read the Fourth Way
    by O (in the 70’s, we were all teens). Some friends by chance discovered the Foundation and I was leaving for Europe. Alas, I felt I lost my opportunity.
    While living in Europe, one day looking for the time showings of a cinema, I saw an ad for the G.O. Centre (FOF).
    Needless to say, after all my time ‘in’ , I was always miserable, crying everyday and soooo depressed. Something KNEW something was wrong with this picture.
    Many years and many ‘schools’ later I have found what I had begun to seek 35 years ago.
    Be brave. There is Light at the end of the tunnel.


  610. 608 If I remember accurately.


  611. One factor in why I left The Fellowship of Friends so long ago is that I felt this inner desire to play music.
    I had a vision that a rock band could actually be a useful and profitable vehicle for the group.
    Obviously not in keeping with Robert’s vision of “Art”
    Unlike Robert and his license plates and mail boxes C influence speaks to me in my radio and through the Television. heresy.
    Right now I enjoy a country song
    called “I had my Moments”

    The Police – Spirits In The Material World Lyrics

    (Sting)
    There is no political solution
    To our troubled evolution
    Have no faith in constitution
    There is no bloody revolution

    We are spirits in the material world
    (Are spirits in the material world
    Are spirits in the material world
    Are spirits in the material world)

    Our socalled leaders speak
    With words they try to jail you
    They subjugate the meek
    But it’s the rhetoric of failure

    We are spirits in the material world
    (Are spirits in the material world
    Are spirits in the material world
    Are spirits in the material world)

    Where does the answer lie?
    Living from day to day
    If it’s something we can’t buy
    There must be another way

    We are spirits in the material world
    (Are spirits in the material world)

    (Are spirits in the material world…)
    [repeat/fade]


  612. For all currant members
    of the Fellowship of Friends and their divine Teacher Robert Earl Burton
    when was the last time you had BBQ dripping sauce and Corn on the cob?
    Do you truly believe that it is not possible to eat BBQ and be present or pick up a piece of corn all covered with butter and remember yourself?

    Creating an artificial enviorement is all well and good to create experiences but the 4th way is about living ones life in life. No matter where you are and what you’re doing.


  613. 613

    On the subject of health care, here’s a quaint story from olden days.
    We were in the crunch to finish the Town Hall. Robert had given one of his unrealistic opening dates and booked the music. There were several crews working around the clock trying to meet the deadline. We were all working outrageous shifts. Robert would occasionaly show up to help with angles like “Goodness, lets tear that wall down and move it over two inches or so”. Or that kind of bullshit.
    I had been working for weeks. We were basically not allowed to leave the property if we were on salary. I noticed some pain in a tooth and asked RB to go to the local dentist who was treating most of the salaried workers because he took medical and he knew the system enough that he would be able to treat an emergency without having to go to Marysville and screw with the red tape.
    Robert said no, I couldn’t leave. So I continued to work. Over the next few days my face started to swell on one side, and was constantly hot. RB said I could go when the Town Hall was finished. Long story short, I couldn’t eat due to the pain. The swelling continued. The day of the opening RB said I could go. I went. The dentist, who knew the whole story, said “What the hell’s wrong with that guy”? He told me a story that a student had been sent to have a little chip in front veneered so it would look nice, and he could travel occasionally with RB. As a gift for working hard RB told the student he would pay for it. So he went and the dentist said the kids whole mouth was a mess and he’d be losing teeth. He said putting a veneer on that tooth, in light of what he saw, was like gluing a diamond on top of skin cancer so it would look nice. He was pretty red in the face by then.
    So he gave me some antibiotics and told me the choices were to have it pulled or have a three tooth bridge. I told him I would have to ask RB.
    RB said have it pulled, that’s what he’d pay for. I was in pain and in no position to argue.
    Here’s the clincher. RB then had the balls to come up to me and say “Goodness, I want you to know that I paid for the dentist out of my coffer, my personal coffer”. I’ll never forget that moment.
    Here’s to the second coming of Christ’s conscience, consciousness, will, compassion of all the rest of his horse shit.

    And yes, I should have had my f*****g head examined while I was at it.


  614. 607 Opus111
    “Most of them, given their low income, will qualify for the state-sponsored insurance coverage [MediCal].”

    I hope you’re not suggesting this is a good solution to the FOF not providing healthcare.


  615. on June 20, 2007 at 11:54 pm Devil's Dictionary

    INFLUENCE C: Conscious Influence, described by Gurdjieff as obtainable by direct contact with a living “conscious being” (defined in 11/555). Expanded by Burton to include dead conscious beings, who we are told live in the city of Paradise (near Chico) and start to help FoF students with their evolution as soon as their first donation is received.

    It’s important in the FoF to “verify C Influence”. Burton often says “We in this room have all verified C influence”, meaning we’re all spiritually advanced. The exclusive help given by C influence to the FoF is cited as the main reason why the FoF is a “real school” as opposed to a “group” (all other spiritual organisations). Examples of how this belief works abound on this blog, eg Howard Carter’s statement that the FoF is invulnerable because it’s protected by angels.

    C influence is verified by experiencing “a series of coincidences too numerous to ascribe to chance”, otherwise known as “shocks” (see 11/555). In the past these typically involved frequent sightings of the number 44 on auto number plates and elsewhere. These days seeing pyramids or the number 6 is viewed as more significant (ideally one would see six pyramids). In other words, everyday synchronicity as described by C.G.Jung and The Police, among others, is cleverly used to prove something with which it has no connection whatsoever.

    Burton would sometime describe a student as being “on the ladder” of a particular conscious being. Noone seemed to have a clear idea about what this meant, though the implication was that the student and conscious being were in some way similar and that the student would reincarnate as the conscious being in his/her next lifetime, which brings us neatly to…..

    LIFETIMES:
    According to Burton, successful students are “on the way”, meaning that they are in a series of lifetimes which will culminate in a “conscious play” in their ninth lifetime, meaning they will then become a “conscious being” and move to Paradise (near Chico). At FoF events, Burton will typically say “Most of you are in your eighth lifetimes”. But sometimes when a less devoted student died he would say “He/she was on their sixth (or even fifth) lifetime”. This has been compared to coming second to last in a three-legged race.

    Students prefer not to think too deeply about the implications of all this, but it’s worth observing that until someone is told they are on their ninth lifetime, which doesn’t happen, this doctrine means that no student will become conscious in this lifetime – good news for the donations dept., but not such good news for the student. Many students reassure themselves by believing they will make it next time around. But what does this mean? I, Devil’s Dictionary, will come back as, say, Elizabeth 1st. So in some sense I will be aware that I am in fact DD while I inhabit Elizabeth’s body. How else could “I” be Elizabeth 1st? Admittedly this seems unlikely, but if I don’t know I’m actually DD, what’s the point of being Elizabeth?

    In any case, the recent changes in the teaching have rendered this doctrine even more opaque, although it’s been suggested that students in their 8th lifetimes, if they perform the Sequence (see 11/555) sufficiently vigorously, might come back as prehistoric rhino droppings. Better than not coming back at all, I suppose!


  616. Correction to 613

    I was incorrect about the choices the dentist gave me. They were to have it pulled or have a root canal and crown. Robert wouldn’t spring for it, so he paid the $60.00 or so to have it pulled. The tooth was pretty much near the front.


  617. Bruce. I get your agony, your fury. I get it.

    Nobody put me into a situation that required my teeth be pulled. However, my identity was fucked with. Delusion was an element of it, but so was deliberate deception. And that you don’t forget, even if you come back to yourself.


  618. #596

    No. As in I think, therefore I think I am.


  619. Some synchronicity here after Bruce’s description of his experience with the dentist:

    ————————————————–

    Toothless is Beautiful
    A new generation of psychologists is exploring the way people change what they think and believe in order to achieve peace of mind. Happy birthday, ‘cognitive dissonance.’

    By Wray Herbert
    Newsweek

    June 19, 2007 – The Nuer and the Dinka tribes of southern Sudan share an unusual custom. Both of these cattle-herding societies remove several of their kids’ permanent front teeth as soon as they sprout: two on the top and four to six on the bottom. It’s a very painful procedure, done with a fish hook, and it leaves all tribe members with a distinctive slack-jawed look and speech impediments.

    This practice probably started long ago, when tetanus was rampant in central Africa. Tetanus causes “lockjaw,” but the tooth removal would have allowed children afflicted by this infectious disease to drink liquids even when their jaw muscles clamped shut. Although there has been no tetanus or lockjaw in the southern Sudan for ages, both the Nuer and the Dinka continue the custom of extracting the front teeth. Indeed, they believe the sunken jaw and lower lip are beautiful. People with front teeth, they say, look like jackals.

    Social psychologists Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson describe this odd custom in their new book, “Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me),” as an example of the psychological process known as cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is the extreme emotional discomfort we feel when two important beliefs, attitudes or perceptions collide. Humans cannot tolerate dissonance for long, so they ease the tension by making a change in belief or attitude—and justifying the change. In the case of the Nuer and Dinka, they “choose” to believe that the toothless look is aesthetically pleasing in order to justify the infliction of such trauma on their children. Any connection to health and survival is long gone.

    Before you deride this custom as primitive or barbaric, think of something a little closer to home, like a humiliating club initiation. What better way to cultivate allegiance than to make entry an aversive experience? After all, if you voluntarily put yourself through a demeaning or painful ritual, it must be worth it, right? Indeed, as Tavris and Aronson show, there is hardly a realm of life in which we do not “make things OK” to get rid of the emotional discomfort caused by cognitive dissonance. This year is the 50th anniversary of the theory, first proposed by Aronson’s mentor, Leon Festinger. The idea has proved remarkably resilient, enduring many theoretical challenges and more than 3,000 experimental tests of its validity, many of which are described in “Mistakes Were Made.”

    Yet for all the theory’s power, Festinger never spelled out just why cognitive inconsistency produces psychological discomfort. Or why that discomfort motivates us to change. Why can’t we just live with inconsistency and contradiction? A new generation of psychologists is now taking the theory to the next level, exploring the motivations underlying our sometimes odd beliefs and practices. Some scientists have even begun for the first time to trace psychological discomfort and self-justifying acts to their roots in the brain’s complex neurochemistry.

    One of these dissonance-theory revisionists is Eddie Harmon-Jones, a Texas A&M psychologist who has run a slew of laboratory experiments on the inner workings of dissonance. Harmon-Jones believes that dissonance is essentially about action, specifically about everyday decision making and choices and commitments. In his view, it’s not just abstract “cognitions” in collision. We experience unpleasant emotions whenever life forces us to choose a course of action, but we are not fully convinced it’s the right course. Or put another way, when we make an important commitment, the mind instinctively seeks out proof that we’ve done the smart thing.

    Here is a typical experiment: Harmon-Jones assembled a group of college students who were on the record opposing a tuition increase. (Right, they weren’t hard to find.) Then he told half the students that they had to write a persuasive essay favoring a 10 percent tuition hike. The other half were told that they could write such an essay, but it was entirely up to them. All of the students in the first group wrote the essay, and some in the second group did as well.

    What Harmon-Jones did was experimentally put the students in the second group in a state of emotional conflict by giving them a choice in what they did. By choosing to write the essay, these students were taking a stand, but they didn’t believe in their own choice. Harmon-Jones suspected that these conflicted students would somehow have to alleviate their own psychological discomfort, and indeed that is exactly what they did. When questioned later, they—more than those who were forced to write—had altered their beliefs about a tuition hike. In more ways than one, this is akin to deciding that a painful dental extraction is a good thing.

    Life’s commitments—to a job, a cause, a mate—require big emotional investments, and can carry significant emotional risks. So it stands to reason that the brain might be hard-wired for the mental work of monitoring and justifying choices and actions. Harmon-Jones decided to explore this possibility as well. He attached EEG electrodes to the students’ brains just as they began to write the persuasive essay and measured neuronal activity in several regions. He found that the students who were working through psychological conflict had more neuronal firing in their left frontal cortex, a brain region associated with motivation to change. The EEG was basically recording belief change in action. That’s how fundamental the need is to defuse dissonance.

    What if you make a choice that is really bad and you can’t hide from it? What is the mind’s strategy for dealing with a colossal mistake? Well, as Tavris and Aronson note, public figures from Henry Kissinger to Ronald Reagan to Scooter Libby and Alberto Gonzales have opted for a simple phrase that deflects all responsibility: mistakes were made. But just as commonly, people who don’t want to own up to a mistake become even more entrenched in their belief once it is proven wrong. They throw good money after bad in the market, grab for straws in a dying relationship or send yet more troops to fight a misbegotten war.


  620. WhaleRider thank you for your thoughts. And, Exlax 101 a salute to you.

    Yeah, a black Arabian thoroughbred would be nice. A Triple Crown winner. A three kings horse. Long Saturnine legs.
    What a beauty!


  621. Bruce
    613

    On the subject of health care, here’s a quaint story from olden days.

    ******************

    Here’s another construction story. This is one of the strangest events that I have ever witnessed. Everyone involved had been in the “school” remembering themselves for at least ten years, except me and I’d only been around for four or five years, this is sometime in the mid-ish 80’s. The “octave leader” comes onto the construction site and notices two “students” cutting ten foot long redwood boards (very light wood) on a heavy duty radial arm saw that is meant to cut oak or walnut, very hard wood. It is an oversized piece of equipment especially for that application. The “octave leader” insists that this activity is a one man job and sends the student that was controlling the rear end of the ten foot boards off to do something else and the very next cut the student operating the saw cuts his finger off. He is holding his bleeding hand with his good hand up to his face and is screaming in pain and shock. The “octave leader,” who up until now was acting like a distant, cold, power-feature prick, suddenly goes into a psychotic break. He walks over to the bleeding, screaming student (remember these are “men number four”) who is for some reason shouting the “octave leader’s” name over and over, and picks up the finger and is trying to put it back on. I’m in a conscious state at this point taking every split-second into my permanent memory. The finger falls onto the ground and the “octave leader” picks it up again and puts it back onto the bleeding stump, the bleeding student is screaming and watching, while kind of holding his hand still in what appears to be an effort to help. When the finger stays in place for a second the “octave leader” kind of shrugs as if to say, “Look I fixed it.” Meanwhile the injured student is still screaming the guy’s name again and again. The injured party was carted off to the emergency room and the “octave leader,” ashen, shaken and inner considering about his bizarre lunatic reaction, disappeared off the site. Another one of those slow-motion scenes that tend to destroy the atmosphere of vanity that permeates the fake perception that “students” are somehow above the mechanical reactions of “life.”


  622. on June 21, 2007 at 4:19 am Health Insurance

    Hi Discussion

    To be fair many Americans do not have standard Health Insurance. It is more or less a privilege of the rich, or your company pays.
    Even if you have health insurance you still have to pay just like paying Teaching Payments and then still having to pay for meetings with Robert.

    Infof they do fundraisers for the sick and wounded.
    Recently they did one for a girl who broke her arm.

    If you are from other countries on salary then you take a risk, but the reward is a possibility for a green card.

    Some students live in shacks (mobile homes) that are difficult to insulate from the harsh weather.

    Many older students are not able to afford a house mainly due to bad credit.


  623. on June 21, 2007 at 4:53 am Skeptical Optimist

    The blog has been incredibly helpful in bringing up many experiences from FoF days, particularly the time around leaving. However, the longer I read, the further back I go, reliving many moments from the past, maybe understanding them a little better from this current perspective.

    It’s true that in the years after I left I didn’t really “relive” old experiences—I wanted to go on to the new, shake off the old. But now I think it would be really helpful to me to get more clarity about those days (my memory ain’t what it used to be).

    I’d like to ask anyone who has a memory of an unpleasant encounter with me back then and wants to air it out to please post to the blog. If you post under the name you had then (this really helps) I hope to be able to respond.

    Thanks.

    JoelF


  624. on June 21, 2007 at 5:09 am Joe Average

    197/389 bass-ackwards – You are right, I did not see it. There have been a few gems like that I found later on reviewing postings bass-ackwards. We could take it as a photograph not to be so linear in our thinking or as the fulfilment of your wish expressed in the choice of the handle by an endlessly giving universe ala “The Secret”. Yes, of course that is silly, but ain’t it poetic?
    Your posts raise important questions: What is a conscious school/ what is a conscious person/ what is a conscious teacher/ how do we verify that/can a teacher be extracted from his school without fatal consequences for both/ if something is kept of the school, what and how?

    In order to go into this, I am afraid I must burden you with some personal history about the evolution of my “verifications”.

    I never liked Robert Burton as a person. His attitudes, his pretensions, his dominance, his arrogance, his intellectual incompetence, his posturing at emotional depth while his statements, actions and tastes consistently showed someone as emotionally deep as Liberace with a hangover – basically almost everything about him turned me off. The electroplate-thin veneer of a “Renaissance man” over the reality of a butcher’s son from Arkansas, painfully aware of his shortcomings, his lack of any real experience with culture in any field whatsoever, and his desperate need to be seen as anything other than that was very obvious. Having been born in the south from a long line of southerners, the vast majority of whom never made it off the farm, I understood the psychology. When y’all commence to socializin’ with them uppity Yankees, the hayseed fallin’ out your hair and the calluses on your hands from rippin’ raw cotton like steel wool out the bud are a might embarrassin’. (yes, of course it is a caricature, lighten up, eat some okra and grits)

    There was just this teensy problem – he was the “teacher” of the “conscious school” of which I was a “student”. I must now put those things in quotes as their reality for me has become tenuous at best. So it was up to me to figure out why nearly everyone else seemed to think he was the bees’ knees. For years, the experiences I had either in my personal work or while interacting with students was sufficiently rewarding to keep me in the organization. I assumed RB was primarily using the tool of “intentional insincerity” to keep people off-balance, using obvious nonsense and myths to force students back upon themselves, to keep them verifying and acting only upon their own most indisputable personal truths. Also for years, the concept of “C-influence” meant little to me as a concrete reality. For good or for ill, the FOF does tend to change peoples’ concepts of reality. First, years of increasingly bizarre and inexplicable experiences, synchronicities etc. finally overwhelmed my cynicism and I had to yield to the reality of some kind of external intelligence operant invisibly in daily reality. The routine bits, the 44’s, the wonder of hearing a passer-by by giving me “answers” to questions but yet half-formulated etc. – all these things could be written off as selectively emphasized coincidences, (for 2 months once, I looked for “22” in my environment and it was everywhere) yet the sheer preponderance and intensity of these things kept rocking my reality, setting me up for various experiences that simply could not be explained away.
    Later, after more exposure to Robert, I became convinced that he really believed what he was saying. I could not find the slightest glimmer of private whimsy or “2-ness” in anything he said; he was utterly convinced, which, of course, was the source of much of his personal power and charisma. Christ, he is a total nut job. Now what does that mean?
    From that point, I began to feel like the Salieri character in “Amadeus”, who was driven mad by his perception that God had chosen Mozart, “that obscene child”, as his instrument for creating beauty on Earth. If a creative intelligence beyond humans helped to shape the events of the world and had a keen, though probably not exclusive, interest in this organization, which seemed very likely, why did it put, or allow, this psycho at the helm of the organization?
    The years rolled on and the accumulation of experiences with RB led irrefutably to the yanking out of the remaining leg of the tripod I sat on in the first years of the school: without exception, every time I was exposed to him, I had those types of experiences that I had long since labelled “higher states”. It is perhaps worth noting that I never lived with him, travelled with him or had sex with him. This constantly reinforced association: experiencing Robert = experiencing higher states, eventually led to another, very grudging, “verification”: it makes no sense at any level whatsoever, but this psycho must be a conscious being. Even though I still, on a personal level, continued to dislike him, I found myself respecting him and viewing him as “my teacher” in a very literal sense. The only way to live with this seeming impossibility was to put the blame on myself and my limited reality, to blame my intransigent hope that logic could somehow be made a part of this “higher reality”, to embrace the whole hydra-headed enigma of the school as it was and march forward, consistently discarding logic in favour of anything that seemed more directly related to these, so beloved, so carrot-like, “higher states”.

    Some now look for other spiritual groups or sources that are less “tainted”. It was just this “lack of taintedness” that attracted me to Gurdjieff’s works. Even in childhood, it was clear to me that most organized religion was simply death appeasement wrapped up in fairy tales, a bad habit, cowardly and deeply “inauthentic”. From late childhood through my teens, I occasionally dipped into philosophical works, but usually found them to be self-indulgent, self-validating intellectual one-upsmanship, simply a mental circle jerk that never pointed at anything liberating. So the flowering of interest in “alternate realities” when it came, came rather suddenly with little real backdrop of experience. I found Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, was totally demolished by the clarity and force of the ideas. I had sensed a core of truth in some religious writings, certainly I felt their beauty, but they were always so bound up with cultural constraints/biases and political/historical compromise as to make them impenetrable. Just too tainted. But here were G&O, using logic, encouraging only self-exploration and ruthless honesty, yet pointing to higher realities, not just sterile mind games.

    Other than my church, I had never been in any sort of spiritual group, had zero practical knowledge of what other groups really had to offer. It was easy to laugh at the Hare Krishnas, the levitating TM enthusiasts, the EST yuppies, be appalled at Moonies and Scientologists and of course, all traditional religions were right out etc.; easy to assume that all groups were like those. So in meeting the FOF, I really bought into that “needle in a haystack” fear meme. And I bought into the G&O concepts: states of consciousness, permanent consciousness, higher man, conscious schools, esoteric teachings, higher centres controlling lower ones, the swaying narrow bridge over the gorge of my fears to the One Real Truth…. Concepts – vague, evocative, mysterious and vaporous concepts. And of course, like everyone, I bought into the primary concept taught us by our parents, the original sin, the original “missing the mark” – “you are that (pointing at my body) and I am this (pointing at their body). You will grow and change but you will always be this separate thing called by your name, for all eternity.”

    So, to your wish to discuss:
    We, as members of this School, are the only ones on the planet who are gifted to know about Self-Remembering
    • The 80 billion other people on the planet are sleeping machines, doomed, without Self-Remembering, to a double death
    • Former students have thrown away their one chance in this lifetime to do something “conscious” with their life
    • Empathizing with the suffering of others can be Feminine Dominance, and is to be avoided
    • Influence C consists, among other things, of 44 angels who are dedicated to working with individual students to insure their “awakening” over the course of 9 lifetimes
    • The Lower Self is actively against Self-Remembering, and to be avoided as best as one can
    • All critical observations of the School or Teacher can be seen as examples of the Lower Self gaining precedence over one’s Work
    • Awakening occurs when an individual has accumulated enough Hydrogen 12 to become saturated, thereby enabling crystallization of Higher Centers
    • The Sequence has the power to awaken us if only we can do it passionately and often enough

    From these, the following are concepts that, for me, are either partly or entirely imaginary: School, sleeping machines, Self-Remembering, double death, one chance in this lifetime to do something “conscious”, Feminine Dominance, Influence C, awakening, 9 lifetimes, Lower Self, Teacher, one’s Work, Hydrogen 12, crystallization, Higher Centers, The Sequence, us.

    Once those are extracted from the questions, what is left of them? Once RB is extracted from the myth of the Fellowship, what is left of it?
    A sense of scale is real helpful. The system is a conceptual construct which can, used well, free one of some other, more hidden, more limiting concepts. Some of these concepts I cannot relate to on any scale e.g. The Sequence, 9 lifetimes. Others, like feminine dominance, or the king of hearts, are provisional tags which can help describe observed phenomena, help organize them for a time. Once that period of effective organization is over, the concepts must be dropped. This is a personal process than cannot be compared to anyone else’s. I cannot demand anyone else drop a concept any more than another can demand I retain an outgrown one. Yet if I see ripe fruit being held in place with scotch tape and chewing gum, I might be inclined to point that out. So, on one scale, the question, “Can we extract the Teacher and save the School?” is much like Ouspensky’s famous question “Will I exist forever?” to which the answer was “you don’t exist now”

    What is “the school”? What would you save? How do you envision it? Many people are ending their formal association with the Fellowship of Friends now. Some of them stay in contact with a small circle of friends, trying to understand reality as best and honestly as they can; others form larger networks via email and websites; others dedicate themselves formally to another “school”, others meet with or study under various people they find helpful or “spiritually advanced” for special occasions but are not formally students of anyone etc. I have heard some schemes for “saving the school” that envision simply ousting Mr. Burton and continuing “on our own”. The feasibility of that may well be tested, as he is 67 years old and nature may do the ousting. He could kick off next month, or live another 10 years. No way to know, but imagine what you think might happen if he did just give up his concept of his body tomorrow night. Do you imagine a fairly decent and civil transfer of control to either Asaf or Girard? Do you imagine the bulk of the current students just shrugging and going on with the sequence, the donations, the $200 dinners, the restrictions on what they may think, what they may do, who they may associate with, generally ignoring the lack of 6 feet of psycho pressed into a pink suit?

    I am not trying to taunt you. You raise good, valid questions that I suspect many current students are asking themselves also. You seem to be sincerely asking yourself these questions in an attempt at formulating a reality less objectionable than the status quo of the FOF. I merely point out that the current form of the school is a house of cards that exists solely due to habit and the belief in the special place/fate/ role for or powers of Earl the Pearl Burton. Without that lynchpin of a concept, all other concepts come under immediate scrutiny – what makes a loose association of people into a “conscious school”- if everyone currently associated left tomorrow and 2000 new people replaced them, would it still be a “conscious school” and why or why not?

    What is “out there”? Literally hundreds of posts from ex-members have described similar stories – that they too were “afraid of losing the golden thread” but found that to be all imaginary fear. If their truths have any real value, they continue quite unperturbed by the lack of FOF certification. Some had lost all interest in pursuing spiritual growth before departing and their life became very normal again in every sense. Nothing lost there in leaving that was not already lost. Others, very many others, found that truth was no more limited to an organization than consciousness is limited to the body.

    To me, your “third choice, that of staying and disbelieving the myth” is a contradiction in terms, at best a putting off of unpleasantness. The FOF is Robert Burton; accept the whole package, prescient bison poop, satyriasis, sequence and all or let it go. Letting go of course has nothing to do with your efforts, what you find helpful or not helpful or with whom you choose to share your spiritual journey. You may find that many people in your centre do want to continue to be in association somehow and find a way forward together. Perhaps that way forward for you and them closely resembles the current form of the school, perhaps not. Great! Go for it. But those who, in the absence of Robert, would fall away themselves, must seriously ask themselves how real their bond is now.

    Someone remarkably similar to the form typing this wrote “Essentially the Fellowship was only a place where people occasionally gave each other permission to exist for reasons of spiritual growth.” So – keep giving each other permission, keep honouring what is highest in each other. That is independent of form.


  625. Skeptical Optimist 622

    The blog has been incredibly helpful in bringing up many experiences from FoF days, particularly the time around leaving. However, the longer I read, the further back I go, reliving many moments from the past, maybe understanding them a little better from this current perspective.

    It’s true that in the years after I left I didn’t really “relive” old experiences—I wanted to go on to the new, shake off the old. Bu